Fred Burmer – Lions Choice

On this episode of The Sauce Podcast, host Lauren sits down with Fred Burmer, CEO of Lion’s Choice, for a conversation about one of St. Louis’ most iconic restaurant brands, the loyal customers who have sustained it for nearly six decades, and the challenge of honoring tradition while continuing to innovate.

Fred shares the story behind Lion’s Choice, from its founding in 1967 by a former Monsanto chemist looking to create something different from the typical fast-food burger concept, to its growth into a beloved St. Louis institution with 24 locations across the region. He explains what makes the restaurant’s signature roast beef unique, why quality remains at the center of every menu item, and how customer feedback continues to shape the brand today.

The conversation explores the passionate fan base that has made Lion’s Choice a local favorite, including the now-famous story of the cheese sauce customers demanded be brought back after a recipe change. Fred also discusses menu innovation, the creation of popular sandwiches like the Remix, plans for future product launches, and how Lion’s Choice balances nostalgia with new ideas.

Along the way, Fred reflects on his journey from leading major restaurant brands across the country to becoming CEO of Lion’s Choice, the company’s expansion plans beyond St. Louis, the importance of team culture, and what exciting developments customers can expect in the years ahead.

In this episode:
• The history of Lion’s Choice and its founding in 1967
• Why the brand’s roast beef stands apart from competitors
• The secret behind Lion’s Choice’s fiercely loyal customer base
• The famous cheese sauce controversy and customer reaction
• How menu innovation led to sandwiches like the Remix
• The role employees and customers play in developing new products
• Custard, mini-dipped cones, and other fan favorites
• Fred Burmer’s path to becoming CEO of Lion’s Choice
• Building a culture that spans generations of employees
• Plans for expansion beyond the St. Louis market
• Upcoming menu items and customer-driven initiatives
• The future of Lion’s Choice and what's next for the brand

Come for the roast beef. Stay for the stories. 🦁🥪

✨ Presented by SWADE Dispensary, with locations across Missouri. Learn more at swadecannabis.com. Our other podcast sponsors are 4 Hands Brewing Co. and LHM.

🎧 Watch on YouTube or listen on Spotify and all major podcast platforms.

📅 New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Come for the conversation. Stay for the culture. 🌿

 ✨ Presented by SWADE Dispensary, with 12 locations across Missouri. Learn more at swadecannabis.com. Our other podcast sponsors are 4 Hands Brewing Co. and LHM.

🎧 Watch on YouTube or listen on Spotify and all major platforms.
 📅 New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Transcript

The Cheese Sauce Customers Refused to Lose

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I thought we could do a little better on the cheese, so we tried a different cheese.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

You did.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And uh boy, they noticed our customers noticed right away.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

You can't change that.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Yeah. I didn't think anybody would notice. I thought I liked it a little bit better. Oh uh, but yeah, we we we still have the same. We went right back because we listened to what the customers said.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Suede Dispensary, now with 12 locations across Missouri, is taking convenience to a whole new level. The cannabis brand just opened its first ever 24-hour drive through storefront and overland, meaning you can order online and pick up anytime, day or night. Whether you're planning ahead or making a late night run, Suede is ready when you are with quick pickup, expanded delivery, and a seamless experience. Hello, welcome to the Sauce Podcast. I'm your host, Lauren, and I am here with Fred Bermer, and he is the CEO of Lion's Choice, which is an iconic St. Louis brand. So uh tell us a little bit about the restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Well, brand's been around St. Louis based. Uh it was founded in uh 1967, so it's we're about to celebrate our 59th anniversary.

The History & Legacy of Lion's Choice

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Wow. Um, specializes in roast beef, and uh, but we've got a very well-rounded, very well-rounded menu and a very loyal customer base and uh to team member base.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Definitely. And how many locations are you up to now?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

We have 24 total now.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Wow. And are they all in the St. Louis region?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, right now they're all in the St. Louis DM. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Because I remember before I moved to St. Louis, Lion's Choice was like the place we always came to the moment we got to St. Louis. And in fact, we would stop um what's the little town um down 44 Sullivan is the first Lion's Choice that you see, and we would stop there every single time. So uh it's really near and dear to my heart. So why do you think that it's so long lasting?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, I there's a couple things. Uh number one, uh it hasn't strayed far from its roots at all. You know, a lot of times you see these flashes in the pan and they chase the, you know, they try to be all things to all people and they end up being nothing to nobody. And uh so uh Lion's Choice has stayed very close to its roots. And um, the other thing, and this sounds a little cliche, but uh, you know, our we've got a very loyal customer base. They are diehard uh uh Lions Choice fans and uh don't ever say anything bad about their beloved Lion's Choice brand. Uh and the other piece of it is is our team members. You know, we've got uh uh generations of customers, and we have generations of team members that work in our restaurants. We've got team members who started off when they were teenagers and now their teenage kids are working for us.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

I think that's so cool. And I have to say, my husband and son uh get this meal at least once a week. Um, yeah, I mean it's just the go-to. Like if I don't feel like cooking, they're like, okay, we'll pick up line choice. So good job. Now, why do you think um that the roast beef is really set apart from other sandwiches in the area?

What Makes Lion's Choice Roast Beef Different

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, number one, it's top round, whole muscle, top round, very lean. In fact, uh, the roast beef that we get, there's really not many suppliers in the country that can provide it to our specifications. Really? It has to be trimmed by hand. You can't do it uh you know, automatic.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Really? Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

In order to get it as lean as we want it. I mean, there's no there's literally no fat on it when when we get it. Uh if there is, then we'll finish trimming it ourselves. But it's uh very lean roast beef.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Okay, that tracks. Good for my protein goals.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Well, the other thing is the way we cook it. You know, we have a proprietary uh method of cooking. We have uh uh uh ovens that are specially designed for for the slow roasting that we do. And uh we've got some uh and it's and it's got some automatic automated uh uh processes that it follows to cook the meat just right.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Okay, and you have some special seasoning, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Oh yeah. Tell us about that. It's a secret. Yeah, it's a secret. I can tell you what's in it, but I have to kill you.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Oh no, okay. Never mind. Don't tell me.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

It's the die for it's uh uh people love it. In fact, um I've got some, you know, I mean, just about everybody in our company has some in their cupboards at home and puts it on other things. Uh uh it's even good on popcorn.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Oh, that's a that's a nice pro tip because you saw that on the side, don't you? Okay, that's awesome. Our podcast sponsor is Fourhands Brewing Company, which is celebrating 10 years of citywide here in St. Louis. The 10th anniversary celebration will feature collaborations with fellow iconic St. Louis companies, including Sauce on the Side, High Point Drive In, Sugar Fire Smokehouse, Gus's Pretzel Shop, Fritz's Root Beer, Blue City Deli, STL Toasted, Strange Donuts, Peacemaker, Lobster and Crab Company, Clementine's Ice Cream, Strange Donuts, and more. Now, I have to admit, while I do like the roast beef and the remix we get all the time in my household, I actually really like your turkey

Beyond Roast Beef: Turkey, Ham & Menu Favorites

SPEAKER_02 4:50

too. So what makes that so good?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, again, we don't skimp on uh on anything that we uh uh that we put in the restaurants. In fact, um, you know, one of the things that my predecessor started, and I I think it's uh uh something that we follow through on, is everything on our menu needs to be ridiculously good. Uh otherwise it just doesn't stay on. Even uh the same thing with the uh the ham that we have and uh uh the chicken uh tenders that we have are all just top quality, uh top quality

The Cheese Sauce Story

SPEAKER_00 5:18

items.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah, I would have to agree with that. Now, can we talk about the cheese that comes with the French fries? Because uh my son will just drink that and he would have that for his entire meal if I would let him.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

You know, it's funny because uh when I first got here, uh, and I've only been here for three years, and um, I thought we could do a little better on the cheese. So we tried a different cheese.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

You did.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

And uh boy, they noticed our customers noticed right away. You can't change that. Yeah, I didn't think anybody would notice. I thought I liked it a little bit better. Oh uh, but uh yeah, we we we still have the same. We went right back because we listened to what the customer said, but uh it is very popular.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, what's in that? Because I feel like I don't know, it's like a cheese goo.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Well, it's cheddar cheese. It's uh you know, melted jedder cheese. And uh people love it on their fries and a lot of people order it on their sandwiches.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yes, we like it on both in my household.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, we're actually uh playing around with a uh something we might do later this year or early next year with a uh a Philly cheese steak that we would we're we're looking at uh whether or not we're gonna put that jedder on it or uh look at a a uh a Swiss cheese or I'm sorry, a provolone cheese to put on it.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

We could do both. That's what I would do. I get I get what do I get? What's my order? I get a turkey sandwich with pepper jack and provelle, and then I also get the the cheddar cheese sauce. I love cheese.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

You know, uh one of the things that a lot of people don't know is you can get any of the proteins on any of our sandwiches. Uh uh something that's becoming pretty popular is a lot of people are ordering the remix with turkey instead of the beef.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Oh, oh, I need to do that. Okay, that sounds good. I'm like, hmm, what should I eat for dinner

Balancing Tradition and Innovation

SPEAKER_02 7:00

later? Oh, wait, no, I already have dinner plans. Uh uh, tomorrow. Uh okay, so I know that you're really trying to stick to your roots while also innovating. So how's that working out?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

It's actually working out very well. We um uh we're certainly not gonna stray from our roots at all. I mean, we have what we call the OG or the original menu, the item that you know our customers know and love. Um but all of our uh innovation, if you want to call it that, is really gonna revolve around that original menu. And um it's really like for example, the remix was really the first time that we put a permanent menu item on there that we call our our uh premium, you know, premium products. And now we have four different premium sandwiches.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

And um they're they're a good portion of our mix and they're growing, and we're gonna continue to to add to that. But uh, you know, it's it's it's gonna be about the roast beef. Yeah. Um, and um really what it does, I like when I go to order somewhere, I'm kind of a lazy orderer, you know. Oh I go with okay, you tell me what's good, you know. So

How Customer Ideas Created the Remix

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I'll look and see what's up there. I'm not one that wants to create my own sandwich. Okay. And so uh these premium sandwiches are kind of the the recipe sandwiches that come from favorites that our customers typically have. The remix was born based on some of our employees' feedback feedback from our employees.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

The cubano came from a contest that we had where our customers would submit uh different types, their favorite sandwiches that are what they thought we should have. We had over 500 submissions.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah, and then we uh uh that the cubano was chosen and it's a good seller.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

And that was on the cover of Sauce Magazine last summer. So that was fun. Yeah, that turned out really nicely. Yeah, okay. So let's talk about uh your ice cream because that's so popular too, and those little mini dipped cones you do are so nice.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah,

Custard, Mini Cones & Fan Favorites

SPEAKER_00 8:49

yeah. The custard is very good. Um, I never was a custard guy uh uh you know until I came to Lion's Choice and I tried it, and then obviously I had to go try other people's custard, and I would stack ours up against anybody's. It's really good.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah, it is. Are you still doing the little mini dipped cones?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

We still do the mini cones, and it's uh popular with what's neat about that is that's popular with a two-year-old to a 95-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah. Well, sometimes you need a little something sweet after dinner, but you don't necessarily need like the piled high cones, so that's great.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, it's the perfect amount. And the the the real uh seasoned uh customers, they know that uh when they go to place their order, they can go ahead and order that cone and we'll have it ready for them when they get done eating in the dining room.

The Origins of Lion's Choice

SPEAKER_02 9:32

That's right. Okay. Now, can you tell me a little bit about the history of the company and like how did it grow so big?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, uh, like I said, it started in 1967. Uh uh one of the founders was uh his name is Marvin Gibbs. He was a Monsanto uh he's actually a uh a PhD in chemistry. He was a chemist at Monsanto and uh was looking for something to do after in you know after Monsanto. And um he still lives here in Chesterfield. In fact, uh he and I have become friends, and I've spent I spend time with him a few times a year.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

But uh he I asked him one time, I said, why'd you get in the roast beef business? How did you and he was very smart. He he said, Look, uh everybody you can get burgers on every corner, you can get chicken on every corner. Uh we wanted to do something different. And uh uh he and his partners put that uh started the brand and just uh uh organically grew. But he's a he's a not only was he a uh smart chemist, but he's a good business person.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah, clearly, because I mean they're everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, I love that. We've got uh we've got uh St. Louis pretty much covered, and our next frontier is gonna

Expansion Plans Beyond St. Louis

SPEAKER_00 10:40

be uh shortly start moving out uh out of the St. Louis DMA.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Like where to?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Well, we've got some targeted cities. Um, you know, uh we've we've got several of them, uh maybe Cape Girardo, Columbia. Um we're looking at a couple other towns.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

That's fun. Yeah, take it down to Springfield. That's my hometown. We'll get there. We could have used it down there.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

We'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

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Fred Burmer's Journey to CEO

SPEAKER_02 11:36

how did you get involved with Lion's Choice?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, I, you know, I didn't, I I'm not from St. Louis. I uh I grew up in Florida. I was living in Orlando, and I've lived in several other cities as my career moved me around the country. And um uh Mike Cupstis, who is my predecessor, was retiring. And uh uh so they uh they had a a recruiter reach out to me. I was living in Atlanta working for Yum Brands uh with uh a large franchisee that had Taco Bells, Pizza Huts, and KFCs.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

And they called to see if I'd like to talk with them about uh you know moving into the CEO role for Lion's Choice. And I didn't know what a lion's choice was. Uh, you know, I after the recruiter called, I obviously, like everybody does, you Google it. And the thing that would really stuck out with me was very quickly was the the loyalty of the customers. Um, you know, I would I would uh read maybe somebody post uh something as simple as, you know, Lion's Choice or the other guy. And and the Lion's Choice customers would come to the defense and go, how could you even use those two words in the same sentence? And you know, when I when I saw that uh that level of loyalty, um it just struck me as what a privilege it would be to be at the helm of uh a company that had customers like that. And then when I got here, to my surprise, I saw the same level of loyalty with the team member base. So it's uh it's it's been exciting. In fact, I just celebrated my third anniversary uh April 1st.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Nice. That's cool. Oh, it's not a joke. Okay, that's really cool. And what do you like to do in your free time?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

A couple of things. Uh, you know, I I'm I spend a lot of time away from home, so when I'm free, I I do like to stay at home. I've got a woodworking shop in my basement that I

Woodworking, Family & Life Outside Work

SPEAKER_00 13:17

like to spend time uh in in uh over the weekends. And then uh I've got uh I've got three grandkids, two in Minnesota and one in Orlando, and so my wife and I will go visit them.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Nice. What kind of wood stuff are you making?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

You know, I like making furniture. Oh yeah. Uh just uh I've got a couple pieces that I'm real proud of. Otherwise, it's uh just little little stuff. But um, you know, maybe when I retire and I have time to spend all weekend there, I'll get onto some serious projects.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Yeah, that's really that's a neat little project you've got going on there.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Okay. And uh, where do you like to eat around town when you're not eating at Lion's Choice?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Well, near where I

Where Fred Eats Around St. Louis

SPEAKER_00 13:56

live, there's a little restaurant called Hawthorne Inn.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

And uh that's one of my favorite places. It's uh it's in Labberty, I think is the name of the town.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

You ever familiar with it?

SPEAKER_02 14:05

No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

You just gave them a free plug.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah, well, that's good. We're trying to hype up the little man here.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

But if I had to choose, it would always be Lion's Choice.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Oh, of course. Okay. Uh and what's on the horizon for the brand?

New Products, Nostalgic Sandwiches & What's Next

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, we've got some exciting things coming uh along. Um, we've got some new products that we're gonna try later this year. We've got a uh another uh customer engagement uh towards the I think in the fall where we're gonna let our uh our customers vote on their favorite nostalgic uh sandwich uh you know over the years. So that'll be fun. Yeah, so we're anxious to see uh what the vote looks like in that. And um, we've got a a uh new lion character that we're about to introduce to the public in the next couple of weeks. So stay tuned. He's gonna really uh uh personify the brand. He's gonna really kind of show the public our uh our personality and the lion's choice personality, something different than people have seen from Lion's Choice.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

That's fun.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, we're excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Why did they choose Lion's Choice?

The Story Behind the Lion's Choice Name

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Like, what's the story behind the name?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah, let me see if I can get this right. They um they had to change the name early on. I think the first name was uh Red Lion.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

And then when they went to uh to pa to uh copyright the name, they found out that there was already like a hotel chain or motel chain that had that name. So in order to copyright it, they had to go change the name. And so they thought, you know, the the real impetus between it is you know, lion's choice is supposedly the you know, this is the best. It's the lion's choice. And uh that's uh that's how the name came about.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Okay, that's cool. All right. Well, is there anything else you want people to know?

Final Thoughts & Message to Customers

SPEAKER_00 15:44

No, I appreciate you having me uh and the interest in Lion's Choice. And uh um, you know, I would say uh to our loyal customers how much I appreciate you guys. And uh if you haven't tried us uh yet, come in and uh see what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yes, we're a passionate bunch. Okay, well, thanks for stopping by.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Thank you.