CEO Kingdom Seekers

Ep 15: He Gives Sleep to His Beloved - Rest as a Spiritual Practice with Dr. Benjamin Long (Psalm 127:2)

• Dr. Lee C. Cordell • Episode 15

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If you are a high-responsibility human (a founder, a CEO, a parent, a caregiver) sleep is probably one of the first things that gets sacrificed on the altar of productivity. And most of us wear that sacrifice like a badge of honor.

But what if your sleeplessness is not just a health issue, but a spiritual one?

In this episode of CEO Kingdom Seekers, Dr. Lee sits down with Dr. Benjamin Long, a sleep physician, active duty military officer, seminary student, and author, to explore the deeply biblical case for rest. 

Dr. Ben has spent years studying the intersection of sleep science and Christian theology, and what he has found is that the way our culture talks about sleep is fundamentally at odds with how God designed it.

From Psalm 127 ("He gives sleep to His beloved") to the Garden of Gethsemane, Dr. Ben and Dr. Lee unpack what the Bible actually says about rest, why the enemy uses our productivity obsession against us, and how learning to receive sleep as a gift from God can transform not just your health — but your business, your family, and your walk with Him.

Dr. Lee also shares her own raw story of working 20-hour night shifts for nearly a decade, wearing her exhaustion as a trophy, and what happened one Sunday morning when she woke up and realized that for the first time in years,  she wasn't tired.

In this episode, we cover:

  • Why the modern "biohacking" approach to sleep is fundamentally at odds with a biblical worldview
  • What Psalm 127:2 ("He gives sleep to His beloved") actually means for how we build our businesses
  • How Dr. Ben's God-led pivot from pediatrics to sleep medicine taught him about trusting God's timeline
  • The spiritual significance of nighttime awakenings and what the early church knew about night watches that we have largely forgotten
  • Why true rest requires margin as a foundation of both profit and peace
  • Dr. Ben's practical first step for anyone who struggles to prioritize sleep

Resources Mentioned:

Dr. Ben's book: Sleep Habits: Journal Practices, Prayers and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights — sleephabitsjournal.com

Dr. Ben's Substack: sleephabitsjournal.com

Connect with Dr. Lee and the Regulated Roots Community:

Follow on TikTok: @leechelseacordell

Connect on LinkedIn: Dr. Lee Cordell

SPEAKER_03

Hello, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode. I am delighted to have Dr. Benjamin Long with me today. He's a sleep doctor by day, a seminary student by night, and he has a really incredible interest in the integration of theology and sleep. I know y'all could use some support around sleep. He has actually taken these interests and combined them in his debut book, Sleep Habits Journal, Practices, Prayers, and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights. He lives in San Antonio, Texas with his wife, son, and their dog Rolo. Ben, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited for this conversation. Sleep is one of those things that I think is so central to our nervous systems and our relationship with God and rest and all of these things. And it's something I see in high responsibility humans. It's one of the first things that can get really disrupted and distorted by the world. And so I'm so excited to hear about your research and how you've combined that with our faith and our connection with God. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03

Of course. Yeah. So I think I just love to start with usually when somebody does something very niche and cool like this, there's a backstory to it. Was this something that you personally dealt with? Like what led you to focus in on sleep from this Christian perspective?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, God. That's it. Just God.

SPEAKER_03

That's enough.

SPEAKER_02

That's an awesome.

SPEAKER_00

He really, it was not anything of my own foresight. I really just kind of fell into it, is probably the best way to describe it. For people who go into medical school and want to be a doctor, there seems like there's kind of two camps. There's the people who, like me, when I was like 12 years old, and I'm like, I'm gonna be a doctor. I want to be a pediatrician. My grandfather was a pediatrician. And so that was just like what I was like running toward for so long. And you have the other people who are like somewhere in their adult life and they're like, why don't I try being a doctor? Which is just totally foreign to me. I'm like, you don't, you haven't had your life planned out since you were 12. What are you talking about? So I was running towards this goal of being a pediatrician and then came across the this understanding that the kind of medicine that was practiced by my grandfather and the stories I grew up with and what I witness is very different from the reality of medicine today. And so, if I'm totally honest, some of it was self-preservation. I got towards the end of my pediatrics training and I was like, oh, my bosses who are really good pediatricians stay here longer than I do. And I was like, there's something that has to give. So there's this saying in medicine that you can have three things as a doctor. You can have a really good family life, you can make a lot of money, or you can be a really good doctor. You can pick two of those things, but you're never going to have all three. And I knew for me, I was like, with the great need in general pediatrics, it will be to the detriment of my family. And so that was one huge thing that caused me to pivot. And then I just so happened to rotate on sleep medicine, loved it. I just felt like it clicked for me. And then as I was studying and deepening my knowledge of sleep medicine, I just kept on coming across these parallels that just were resonating in my mind. As I was learning this stuff about insomnia and the evidence behind how we manage that and the root causes of insomnia. But at the same time, I'm reading my Bible and seeing these instances of sleeplessness, especially pronounced in the Psalms, that I was like, okay, there's got to be something here because I feel like I'm almost like reading the exact things that my patients tell me in the Psalms. And then when we're treating them, I'm seeing these very similar things. And so that comes from this idea, you know, like God is the author of all truth. And so what is true in science and evidence-based medicine is also going to be true as it's revealed in his word as well. And so I think that's what I didn't quite have the language or the framework to understand. And that's what propelled me to go on this journey of okay, what does the Bible really have to say about sleep? How can I practically bring that to my patients as well and serve them well?

SPEAKER_03

I love this because there's this word, and I think a lot of times people put a negative connotation on it. And I think it's actually an amoral word. How you go about it is what determines the morality of it. And it's the subversiveness of, I'm going to do this thing under the surface that there's going to be a superficial layer to it and there's going to be a deeper layer to it. And I love what you are doing because even if somebody isn't a Christian, even if somebody doesn't believe in God at all, and these are the principles and practices of sleep. This is how God created our sleep wake cycle. This is how these things work. You can take that into a secular space and still apply those principles and have them work and not have it have to be this thing of you have to accept Jesus in order to. And don't get me wrong, I sleep a lot better with Jesus in my life. I think most people do. And I wanted to bring this out because a lot of times the people that we have come talk on our show are people who are doing things very open, you know, very public about their faith in terms of what they're doing. And I'm not saying that you're not, but I can imagine in your work at the hospital, you're not going to walk in and be like, I'm going to help you sleep better. And this is exactly how Jesus tells you to do that. You probably have patients that believe a lot of different things. I also can imagine you don't have a lot of time just knowing. So I would love to just hear your thoughts on that. Of do you agree with that? Is that something that you find in your work?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. I think a couple things come to the surface. One is, and studying sleep in the Bible and Christian history, it has changed how I view sleep. And I think that in and of itself is just making me a better sleep physician. And that the problem with modern medicine and I guess our current cultural framing of sleep in particular is that we don't acknowledge and bring to the forefront what philosophical foundations and what worldview is dominating the sleep space. And so much of that, especially for your audience of entrepreneurs and people who are really working hard, there's a lot of this language around efficiency and productivity and biohacking and things of that nature. And how can I manipulate sleep in order to get the outcomes that I want? But then you go to, we were briefly messaging back and forth about Psalm 127. And that's one of my favorite Psalms to talk about sleep, because that's speaking to exactly this idea and this mindset of unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman is watching in vain. It's in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved sleep. And those two verses, right? And it's not saying don't build the city or don't protect the city, don't build the house. Human participation, cooperation with God has to be there in order for the city to be watched over and the house to be built. But what the psalmist is pointing us toward is the outcome of those things without God is just this anxious toil. We get so caught up in the outcome and think that is the thing that I am running toward when it's not. As Christians, we are running toward Christ and toward God. And so it's flipping it on its head and saying all of this is a gift that we get to cooperate with God to watch over the city, to build the house, and to receive this gift of sleep. And so as I'm reading these different parts about sleep and sleeplessness, it really is flipping our culture's narrative on sleep. And so I think that is the biggest thing that I bring is holding that space for my patients. And oftentimes people will comment because I use language of I see my job as a physician to accompany people in their illness, to witness their suffering, which is very different from the medical model that you just get as you are becoming a physician in medical education. And so I think in the same way, I try to steward sleep as God's gift and really give that to the families and the people that I serve. And so I just think that understanding changes the dynamic and the interaction that I have with the people I serve.

SPEAKER_03

That's so beautiful. I got chills a couple of times as you were talking. And I have a human in my life that really struggles with sleep. And I've seen the very spiritual impact of that. And it's fascinating to me because as I have grown closer to the Lord and really started to understand this idea of rest and uncoupled my own productivity and efficiency from my own worth, I noticed that my compassion and my ability to really be present with that person in that struggle is so much deeper and easier because before it was how can we help you fix this so that you can be more whatever, right? Right. And now it's okay. How do we help you, even if you're not sleeping, how do we help you rest? Because you deserve to rest. How do we help you not feel depleted all of the time? Because you deserve to feel fulfilled and nourished. I deeply appreciate what you're saying because I think that our society really has taught people this idea of use every minute and get just enough sleep that then you can be awake and maximize every minute that you have awake.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's exhausting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

What have you seen happen in your own life as a result of deepening your knowledge around this and how you move as a physician in particular? Because I know that the world is telling you to operate in a different way. I was a nurse practitioner and I became a nurse practitioner because I wanted to do something similar to being a physician, but I saw what was required of all of you in your training. And those I went, no, thank you. I would like to have family and see them. And I still remember a few years after I became a nurse practitioner, I was offered the opportunity to develop the nocturnal program. And we were taking over a role that had been a physician's role. So whenever we weren't there, a physician would do the same thing we were doing. And we had a cap of 60 hours on our weeks that we could work. The physicians had a cap of 80. And I remember going, okay, same job. So why are they allowed to work 20 hours more? And I remember being mad because I was like, I want to work some more and get overtime and those things. And now I'm like, thank goodness I had a cap at 60. Because that's still a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I'm curious about your own experience.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think just one in general of just becoming an expert in sleep and then seeing how health professionals are the worst at taking our own advice and overextend ourselves. And I sometimes reference I had this surgeon that was in a fatigue mitigation class that I was giving that was like, how do I do X, Y, and Z and all these things, and then be able to still work this much during the day? And I just had to be like, Do you want to have dementia when you're 90? Because that is what you are on the track toward. We don't think of that. We just think, oh, I gotta do all these things. And if I insert enough health optimization, preventative medicine, all this stuff that I see online, if I insert enough of those things, then I can live my life however I want and I'm going to be able to reach my goals. But then no one thinks about how do I want to end my life? How do I want to be present to my families when I'm in my 70s, 80s, or 90s, God willing. And so I think just knowing how important sleep is, and that really shifts your understanding and how you move through your career. I'm a testament to that right now. I'm typically active duty in the military, but I'm right now taking a break through a program called the Career Intermission Program. It's a relatively new retention program across the military that started in 2016. That anyone who meets the requirements can take up to a three-year break from service to pursue whatever personal professional goals that just don't align with being full-time military. And as I was moving up toward it, the most common question was like, why? Like, that's three more years that you're not closer to retirement if you stay in for the 20, or you're adding on more time that you're committing to the military. Like, why would you do this? Why not just get out? And I realized it was a totally different perspective compared to how other people are operating and moving through their military career. That I was like, I'm exhausted. I need a break. I want to be present with my family. And then I have a book coming out, and I don't want to have two full-time jobs of practicing medicine and doing this whole thing. So there were a lot of factors in that. But I do think that idea of rest and need in that space and having that margin and realizing I'm not going to fall behind. That was the biggest fear that I had to overcome is especially in the military, sometimes opportunities just pop up and you can't control them and they may not come back around for several years. And I'm like, what if I miss that because of taking this time off? And then it just comes back to, okay, do I trust that the God who created and sustains the universe is actually going to move me in whatever place he wants me to be in? And I realize, oh man, I'm anxious about all these things of what might happen. And I'm missing the gift of this time that I get to have with my family, the space to I'm in seminary and back in school. And so getting to really dig deeper into the Bible, into Christian history, and to just have that time to really develop what I'm trying to explore with this theology of sleep. And then the last thing I would say is on the flip side to having a more biblical framework for sleep, I think also impacts my sleeplessness. And that when you look at Christian history for a long time, there was arguably, if not in the best way, devaluing of sleep. There was more of an emphasis on staying awake and being watchful and vigilant. Because you think about the New Testament, besides Jesus sleeping in the boat during the storm, that's really the only positive narrative of sleep in the New Testament. Most of the time, they tend to be a little bit more negative. So you think about the Garden of Gethsemane, and the disciples are commanded to watch, and then they fall asleep, and then Jesus comes back and says, What's going on? Couldn't you watch with me for this hour? kind of a thing. And I came across that viewpoint long before I decided to enter sleep. I had a pastor who said, if you wake up in the middle of the night, then you need to be like Samuel and get on your knees and you're praying because God has called you to be awake. And I was like, Really? Is that really? Because maybe, like maybe exactly not.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And like the first time I heard that, I was like, no, that's not true. And then now I'm like, oh, yeah, maybe that is true. And I think that's something that we have actually lost in a lot of traditions of the modern church, of this formation that happened for early Christians in the night and and using time awake in order to watch. And there's a big emphasis, you know, in the Lord's return. And I describe it oftentimes of is the truth of Jesus' return so deep in my heart that it is as sure as the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning. And I think literally that's something that happened to me last night. I like woke up, just had kind of like a typical nighttime awakening, but just felt, hey, maybe I should just pray for a moment or two. And I had this moment where I really was like thinking, oh, hey, the sun is going to rise in about three hours or something like that. And it just clicked in that moment of just as sure as I am that in a few hours the sun is going to rise. Do I have that same anticipation in my heart that Jesus is going to come back? And I think that's part of why Paul is addressing some of the anxieties that kind of came along with that in some of his letters. And there's some commentators who would say in different churches that people are like, oh, God's coming back. I don't need to work anymore. Or I'm going to do all this kind of crazy stuff because God is coming back immediately. And in First Thessalonians in chapter four, he's lead a quiet life, work with your hands. The fact that Jesus is coming back, it shouldn't make all this craziness kind of a thing. It's that having that in my heart that Christ will return, that it's as sure as the dawn. And who I am today, right now, is who God has brought me, like where He has brought me to be. And so how do I live from here? The sun rises, Jesus still hasn't returned. So how do I live this day in light of God's impending return?

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh. I'm just over here. My brain went six different directions. I was like, this is so good. I I I love what you were sharing here. So the first thing I wanted to pull out was that like tension tightening moment that it sounds like you had a few times when you're taking this break, right? Which I don't even see it as a break. People call these breaks and detours, and I'm like, okay, maybe. Or it's it is the actual path that you're supposed to be walking the entire time, and this idea that you're leaving the right path to go, okay, do without what you will, listener. But I learned this the other day, and I have not verified this myself, and I'm curious if you know, but somebody was saying that they're talking about the story of Jonah, and I've always joked whenever I'm in a trial or tribulation that I see myself as, but I'm probably being way more like Jonah. Am I truly the righteous man who's done everything right? Or did I just go in my own direction and do it the way I wanted to do it? So very coverage for people who might not be familiar with this story. Jonah is God comes to Jonah and says, Hey, I want you to go to Nevea and I want you to tell people that proclaim this and let people know that the Lord is coming and I'll share my word. And Jonah's like, Yeah, no. And he goes the opposite direction and ends up, long story short, getting swallowed up by this giant fish, which we call a whale, but the word is giant fish.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Is in the belly of the whale for three days. The whale swims to Nivea and spits him out on the shore. And Jonah's like, oh, look at that. Because Jonah's in the belly of the whale, going, sorry, God, my bad. I repent. Like I should have listened to you. So God takes him to the shore. And then as Naveya is like a three-day walk from one side to the other, but before the end of the first day, like a ton of people have already converted to believing in God. And Jonah's like mad about it because Jonah doesn't like these people. He's like, What do you mean? They're bad people. And so Jonah sits under a tree and basically tells God that he's mad at him for all of this. And then God checks his attitude. The reason I'm sharing this is because I'd always wondered, well, why would that many people repent, convert that quickly? The people in Avea worshiped a god that came in the form of a giant fish. So Jonah getting spit out on the shore in the form of their god and saying, Hey, this is the God you're supposed to be worshiping, like that would have spread like wildfire through the space. The reason I'm sharing that is because I used to work as hard as I possibly could. Like I would labor in vain. I would have that anxious toil. And I see a lot of executives, entrepreneurs, professionals do this. We work as hard as we can, even though God's over here talking to us, we're going, you know, you don't have to work that hard. You don't have to stay up all night watching this. You don't have to do all these things. You can rest. And we're like, no, I'm just gonna do it my way. And then there comes this time that I think for a lot of people, we go, okay, this isn't working. I'm exhausted. And then we're like, okay, God, my bad. And he spits us out on the shore right where we're supposed to be. And he's like, Yeah, I I knew you were gonna do that. So I had already planned for your striving in your own way, you relying on your own energy and your own strength and not resting. I already knew you were gonna do that, and so I will use that.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And I think your willingness to just listen to him in the first place and go, yeah, no, I'm gonna take this break. It makes sense that a lot of people around you are like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You're messing up your timeline, and you're like, no, I'm not messing up my timeline because my timeline's God's timeline.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's his. So if I'm listening to what he's telling me to do, then if he's telling me to rest, I'm gonna rest. And for me, I think I had to learn the rest piece first. And now A lot of times he's like, Lee, do you need to rest or do you need to work? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, and then we go work. And so I think there's almost this once you understand the sleep and the rest, and you can really have your faith in that, that um that is part of your relationship with God, that he created us to have those periods of rest. Like he literally created the Sabbath. God didn't need to rest on the Sabbath. He did that so that we would rest on the Sabbath. I found that once I got very rested, once my sleep got better, once all those things happened, that's when God was like, okay, now let's get to work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I think that's really my concern for this up-and-coming generation, is they have such an amazing frame for mental health and protecting their peace and their boundaries and their space and stuff like that. And it's almost, I am curious if the inverse is actually going to be their problem of being courageous to step into seasons of hard work to build something or to go get something that God has placed upon their heart. And that does require them to step outside of this box that they have created for themselves. The world is crazy. So it makes sense to make those boxes because you can convince yourself if I don't advocate for myself, these businesses and cultures and corporations and systems are going to eat me alive. And in one essence, that is totally true. But on the flip side, the kingdom of God and his economy that we are working toward is where our allegiance lies as Christians. And that's not necessarily going to look the same way as what everyone else is doing. But oftentimes when a culture is hitting its low, that is when Christians are doing their best work. I hate to be like, you know, that like this is the craziest time we've ever been in our generation. And this is the moment because who knows? Only God knows that. Right. Because he sees time. But I do think there is something particular about this moment that we are in right now. And there is a searching for, I think, just truth and stability. And when you find that in God, it opens things up because you're like, oh my gosh, I have this desire to bridge this gap between medicine and faith and show people that who we are as Christians, the worldview that we have, the tools, the understanding of how reality works, uh, that is going to be beautiful for people as they are walking in their sleeplessness. And opens up, I think, imagination and it opens up the courage to be able to go do those things. And I wonder if this generation is going to have to take that leap.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm not a man, obviously. I see this a lot in men and in our boys right now. So I have a newly teen son, he's 13. And people are always like, How did you get him to? And I'm like, look, I birthed them, yes, but a lot of this is him. And a lot of this is God. When you look at him, don't think I parented this into him. This is just how he is. The word I would use is tenacity. Baseball is something where I just think of the scripture where it's talking about doing something with all your heart and all your might. I don't have to tell that boy to go outside and practice. I don't have to tell him to make sure he's getting good sleep or to eat protein to do these things. Like he from the start has just naturally said, This is something that I really love and I'm passionate about and I'm good at it. And I'm gonna go after this with everything I've got. And what I find fascinating about that is that a lot of his friends are confused by that because they don't have something in their lives very similar. Or sometimes he will see other kids and he's like, but they have so much talent. Like I don't understand why they're not. And I'm like, buddy, this is a gift. Like, by God's grace, you have this like fire tenacity, and I love that for you. And I'm like, if you don't end up playing at the collegiate level or in the MLB, because only 0.02% of kids ever do, I know that it's gonna be so important for us to help you find something that you are just as tenacious about because otherwise, I think you will be utterly lost. I see a lot of kids, boys in general, I see them not have the structure, but also not have the just finding that purpose of, oh yeah, okay. So this is something that I'm gonna work really intentionally for. And also it is so important to me that I'm gonna make sure I rest too. Because if I don't rest, I can't do what God is calling me to. And I think there's a subtle difference that I feel like the devil kind of distorts. There's a difference between God has called me to do this and I prioritize rest because he's also called me to do that. And I know that if I have a good balance of those things, I can do the best work for God. I feel like the enemy distorts that and he goes, if this is really what you're supposed to be doing, then you should be thinking about it all the time. You should be doing it all the time, you should be completely focused on it. Or he goes, That's gonna just take you so much time and so much effort, and you're gonna have to follow all these rules and you're gonna have to have all these restrictions on your life, and you're gonna have to work for somebody who's gonna not care about you or do these things. So why bother? Why not just go ahead? So I see both sides of that, and I don't think that's just boys, I think that's all of our kids, and I think some adults too really struggle with that. But I've been seeing it a lot in that teenage male space lately of if there's no purpose there, there is utter restlessness, and there's a lot of destruction that then ends up happening too, because the energy's got to go somewhere. So you're in pediatrics, and I know you do more newborn things right now, but do you see that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, definitely. I think I think there's something particular for boys traversing adolescence and then becoming men. It's very interesting that like our culture, we don't have an initiation as American boys and men. And that is a very weird thing. And I think in some ways there are these moments of, oh, my driver's license. This is this new level of responsibility, and I'm moving towards adulthood. So we have these moments, but they're not necessarily difficult or challenging, infusing people with purpose. No boy is like, ah, now I have my driver's license, I have the purpose kind of a thing. But the initiation are is hey, you are on this cusp of going from boy to man, and I think so many are just lost because they don't have that purpose, and there is a unique tension for men because we are supposed to be very strong and a workhorse in some ways, but then we're also supposed to be emotional and vulnerable and be able to be soft as well, and I think that is possible in some ways, but we just receive these mixed messages of okay, what does it mean to be a man then? What does it mean to be particularly a Christian man? And I think part of that is this disconnect with having a purpose that compels us to serve and to sacrifice for the community around us, whether that is specifically my family, if I'm married, or my neighborhood, or my city, within my church. And I think because we have had such disintegration in institutions, then you know, people are more alone, more isolated and things of that nature. And so they don't get that ability or ease to be able to participate in some bigger story or some bigger narrative or purpose because everything just feels like the sky is falling. When the Christian story and our faith and belief, I don't have to, I'm not the one that's going to bring perfection to the world. I'm not going to be able to fix all the problems. Like that is going to happen at Christ's return. Whew, wait off of me. I don't have to do that. And then the beautiful thing of Christ's life, death, and resurrection is that we're in this in-between of now and not yet, that the kingdom of God has arrived, and us as Christians can participate in bringing that kingdom to the spaces that we live in right now, where I am. And so I think for my generation, it was almost a flip side of like, where is God calling me? I need to go change the world and do all this stuff and this huge rah-rah-rah-rah-rah stuff. And I think the message we needed was like, no, peel it back. God is calling you to be faithful in these small things and these particular places that He has placed you. And then what you're talking about with Jonah and God bending that back towards where he needed to be. Like, God is doing that for all Christians, for all humanity, for all creation, is bending that back toward his good. So we can be faithful, that's going to happen. And then it creates this weight off, like, oh, cool. So then I can continue to develop my relationship with God, to continue to run after being transformed in the image of Christ. And then the passions and things that God's puts on my heart, the particular callings, then I can have a different drive to pursue those things because I don't have to worry if my efforts actually build that house or actually protect that city. I can just be part of that story and just play my part.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. How old are you?

SPEAKER_00

I'm 35.

SPEAKER_03

I am laughing because the only reason I know how old I am is because I'm finally at one of those about to be years. I'm 39. My husband and I will both be 40 this year. So I'm like, oh, I know how old I am this year because I know I'm about to be 40. So you are just a few years behind, like from a historical perspective. And I on the flip side, I see this with a lot of millennial women, younger Gen X, millennial women. There's just this, I'm supposed to do something very important. And the striving that I see. And for me, this is where God has been really working on my heart in terms of rest and sleep. Just a little backstory. I worked night shift almost a decade. I worked also 20-hour shifts. So I'd go in at noon and I'd get off around 7:38 the next morning. And I did that every other weekend for years. And I would wear it like a badge of honor when I'd be like, oh yeah, I haven't slept in 30 hours. But look at how well I'm still functioning. Look at all the things I can do. And I remember I would tell people that. And there'd be this little like moment of almost twisted pleasure at how impressed people would be. Like, oh wow, you know, have three kids and all this. And I would say something like, Yeah, my husband stays home. So that's one of the reasons I can do this. But I look back at that and I was never like, oh yeah, God is so good. Number one. Number two, I think I knew better than to say that because God's like, this is not what I want you to be doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Never called you to work this hard. And when I left clinical practice, I slept so much. I couldn't get myself to do anything. And it was really tough for my ego because it was like, where'd my drive go? Where did everything go? But I remember one Sunday waking up, because I usually worked Saturdays into Sundays or Sundays into Mondays. I woke up and I was like, what is this feeling? What is what's going on? And I was like, I'm not tired. And that makes me almost cry right now. I had no idea what it felt like to be rested. And God worked on me again, that was five years ago. This last year, he's been like, okay, now I want you to learn how to stay rested and work hard.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so I'm totally appreciating what you're saying here. And I think for some of our listeners, this is gonna, there's gonna be some convicting moments in this for sure. Some of you can't even imagine feeling rested and working hard diligently, intentionally, like doing what God's telling you to do, laboring and not taking it so far that you labor in vain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I am finding by taking my focus off of the productivity and simply praying, God, do you want me to rest right now or do you want me to work? And he tells me. He's like, go lay down. Or he's like, no, get up off the couch and go do the thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm finding by following that the amount that is happening, like the amount that I'll put up one social post instead of five, but that will bring in a hundred people as opposed to the five posts that used to bring in two. And people are like, what are you doing differently? And I'm like, nothing, other than not doing anything above and beyond what he tells me to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so if you're hearing that, if you have any resistance to that high same as I did a year or two ago to that, and I feel like this is what one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on as well, because I see how fruitful you are. And I was curious about your story because I was like, I'm wondering if he's working less now than he was or more than he was. And it sounds like you're doing a lot of things intentionally, and you aren't working the way that a lot of physicians work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And ask my wife. I still probably overexert myself. Like I say I'm taking a sabbatical, and she's you're not, because you're working part-time and you're going to school and you're releasing a book and doing all this promo.

SPEAKER_02

I'm taking my form of a sabbatical, okay. Compared to what I normally do. This is a sabbatical. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absolutely. And really, I because I've made a switch now for this year, 26, as I was coming into New Year's and trying to reevaluate and think of things. I was like, I'm getting off of social media hamster wheel. And I've really more pivoted towards Substack. Because of course, after you write your first book, then the question is, what are you going to write next? And then you're like, can I just enjoy this book right now where I'm at?

SPEAKER_03

How long has it been? Do you publish?

SPEAKER_00

The December 9th was when it comes to the Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So exactly. Yeah. Calm down. And I think, and certainly some of that was self-imposed too. Of because that's my personality. It's okay, well, I've crossed this finish line. What's the next finish line?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And but the same thing, I was like, I have put so much time, energy, and all this stuff into social media. And God has not called me to be a content creator or an influencer. And that's so embedded into the publishing industry as far as like striving for that. So that way your book can be successful. And I really just came to a place of I feel like God's calling me toward continuing writing and expanding and working on this craft. And so I'd rather be in a space that prioritizes my written content. I have to write posts, like I have to write articles compared to spending time on video content. And so that's really has been a shift. And if anyone else is thinking of something similar, that has been crazy. I had a newsletter for so long, and I would maybe get a subscriber once in the blue moon. It was very stagnant. And because of newsletter and social media and all this other stuff, I couldn't really focus onto one thing. But once I was like, hey, I'm just gonna switch from my newsletter to Substack just so I can focus on writing and just put most of my energy in this one place, then the nice thing about Substack is it's the social platform in and of itself. And so then you just get more subscribers as you continue to make connections on there and stuff like that. And it's been a more encouraging space because I find that there are a lot of really thoughtful Christians that you can connect with on there that are writing really great work. And the nice part about people who are on Substack, if you're a writer or looking into writing a book, is it's people who want to read because that's what Substack is. So then also there's probably going to be more of a conversion from your followers on Substack that would actually read your book compared to if you had all these people who follow you on TikTok, but they follow you for five, 10 second videos. Doesn't mean that they're necessarily gonna follow you for your book per se.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm so glad you brought this up because we have our agency where we have several business owners that we work with from a growth perspective. And what I love is that a lot of times people come to us and they're like, Oh, yeah, you're gonna help me scale. And I'm like, we're gonna help you grow. I don't know if that means scale. God's gonna show us how you're gonna grow. And that's a really great weed out statement, by the way, because some people go, okay, that and others are like, that's what I want.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So often we take them out of places, like the pruning is the most important thing that we are doing with these people. And it is, you mentioned the word margin earlier, and I want to bring that back because people talk about wanting to be profitable. People talk about wanting to have abundance, and I'm like, so profit and abundance comes from margin, it comes from you having space between what you are using and what you have access to. If you are sleeping only to the bare minimum of what you need in order to be successful, then you have very little margin. So, what's the likelihood that we're gonna be able to create something amazing if we require 100% of your energy, effort, and capacity to do so every time? Or if you cut some of these things out and you had more space in your day to rest and relax and to think, that's the other part. It's just space to think and to pray and to talk to God. And we only needed 50% of your energy, capacity, effort for you to be successful, then you could have a bunch of mediocre days in a row and still grow because that margin is there. And it blows people's minds because I think society just teaches us. I'm hearing that 80s song, push it to the limit, fill every moment with things. And I know focus is sleep, and I think that rest piece is so important for people too, because I find that people who don't rest don't sleep well. Yeah, and they like they pass out. So I'm grateful you are bringing that. Of I could be trying to do TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and all of these places, or I could be very intentional and sit down and discern. And this isn't just spiritual, it's also practical. I'm writing something long form that I want to sell. Maybe I pick a place where I can do that. Create all fun things. People see me on TikTok and they see the podcast and they see me on Facebook and they see me all these places, and they're like, Lee, you're everywhere. And I'm like, I'm not though. I'm not on Twitter, I'm very rarely on LinkedIn, and also watch me on TikTok. I'm not doing the five to ten second videos. My videos are three minutes. I am talking long form at people. I'm teaching. So that content, anyone on TikTok who wants to learn long form, they're gonna really love to come over into our school community and learn long form. Right. They're gonna love to come into the podcast and listen for a longer period of time. If I can't repurpose what I've done into a way that can be long form, then I'm not doing it. And X doesn't work for that. So you've got to find the path forward that makes the most sense. And a lot of times that means that you gotta cut a lot of other things out. If you were talking to one of our listeners who just really struggles with prioritizing sleep, like they listen to this conversation and they're like, yeah, that's all fine and great and whatever, and also, but like that not me. Or I've tried all of these things. I struggle to prioritize this, or I struggle to even have it happen. Like, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00

I think I think the first thing that comes to mind is understanding that your sleep is a part of your spiritual life. And instead of Trying to find shortcuts to get back on the path of getting the sleep that I need to be able to do what I need to do. In my book, I have a quote from the Reverend Andrew Bishop, who wrote a book called Theo Somnia. So Theo from Theology, God insomnia sleep. So literally a God sleep that he talks about thinking about sleep in a way that is open to God, blessed by God, and is this um trust that God will move. And so thinking of sleep as a gift, then you don't have to think about how I can grab it, because God's going to give it to you. And so instead, looking at the sleepless night as an opportunity to connect with God. Because that might be what God is bringing, why he's bringing you to your sleeplessness, because he has a word for you. He wants to have a relationship with you. And your life has been so filled with so many things that you're not able to perceive that he's even there until you're trying to fall asleep. And so I would say one of the first steps is really uh, I think I have an activity like this in the book of just imagine that Jesus is sitting there right next to you in your sleepless night and is listening to you. And what would you say? What would you talk about? And I think that is a small step that doesn't necessarily change anything, but for the biggest part, it reminds us that we're not alone. And sleeplessness can be so isolating and so difficult, especially if you have a spouse who falls asleep at the drop of a hat, then you realizing that um God loves you, He's there with you, He's present, and this beautiful paradox in Christianity, worshiping a triune God that God paradoxically never slept, never sleeps, doesn't grow tired or weary, but then in the incarnation of Jesus coming, being fully man, experiencing sleep and the suffering that comes with sleeplessness, and now having the spirit who is our comforter and is with us every step of the way truly understands your sleepless state. Say that Jesus lived a fully human life and so understands what we go through. But then we have this beautiful in the Bible that we can actually see narratives of Jesus suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and not being able to sleep under severe distress. Any kind of scripture that I have meditated on in my sleeplessness that has been one of the most fruitful of just trying to enter this gospel meditation and asking the spirit to really work in my imagination to just accompany Jesus in that narrative of the Garden of Gethsemane. And I personally felt so seen and so loved as I was reading through that and meditating on that. So that would be the first thing of just understanding I'm not alone. I worship a God who is with me and who understands what I'm experiencing.

SPEAKER_03

Ben, it is so obvious that you are exactly where God has called you to be. It is always a privilege. I feel so excited doing these. And for our audience, we were supposed to have this episode a few weeks ago, and my son unexpectedly fell ill. And Dr. Ben was so gracious because I canceled pretty quickly. And I will say, I know that this episode happening at this time in my life is for a reason. And I get to talk to a lot of people who are doing what God calls them to do. And every now and then when I talk to someone, I'm like, like they are just right at the intersection of their gifts and their talents and their experiences and their trainings. And they are so divinely aligned. And I just I wanted to say that to you because the amount of chills I've gotten during this episode listening to you speak, I'm immediately buying your book the moment we're done with this. I just really want to express my gratitude to you for being willing to go where he's called you to go because it has been a gift. It is a gift, and I think it's gonna bless so many people. So just thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. So could you say the name of your book one more time? So everyone who feels like me can go buy it right away. And it'll be in the show notes. We'll link it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So the book is called Sleep Habits Journal Practices, Prayers, and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights. If you go to sleephabitsjournal.com, that'll take you to all of the different links that you can buy it from your preferred bookseller. And that takes you also to my website. So then if you want to connect with me, or if you're a nerd who loves the science and theology, you can sign up for my substack and you'll get a lot of nerdy reflections from me.

SPEAKER_03

I am here for the science nerd reflections. Absolutely. So thank you so much for joining me. Just an absolute pleasure. I think maybe we can have you back on too in a little while. I'm not going to speak the second book over you, but I think that there's some other aspects to this conversation we could have that would be really beneficial for our audience as well. So thank you again.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. That's very kind of you, Lee. I'd be more than happy to come back on. And this has been a fantastic conversation. Same to you. I think it's very obvious doing a lot of these interviews when there's someone who they've got a lot on their plate and they just haven't quite thought through what they want to ask or get through in the conversation. And so it's very evident that you care for your audience, your audience, and that you love the Lord too and are very passionate to follow his leading. So that's always refreshing when I see that as well.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you. Yes, as a fellow guester, you were very gracious, and I know exactly what you mean. You know, so I'm so grateful he brought us together. To our listeners, thank you so much for joining us. We will catch you next week. Please make sure to go check out Dr. Ben's ac and his book and just sending you prayers for greater, deeper rest, that you can allow God to meet you, whether you are somebody that it's very easy for you to sleep, and maybe God's calling you to take the rest that you have been so graciously given and do something with that. Or if you're somebody who's experiencing a lot of that restlessness, that sleeplessness, just praying that God will meet you in those spaces and that you will open yourself up to allow him to meet you in those spaces. So we will see you next time.