CEO Kingdom Seekers

Ep 16: Be Still and Know: Stop Spiritual Identity Theft & Lead from Who You Are with Donna Tashjian (Psalm 46:10)

• Dr. Lee C. Cordell • Episode 16

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0:00 | 55:21

What if the reason you're striving, grinding, and never feeling like enough has nothing to do with your strategy, and everything to do with your identity?

In this episode of CEO Kingdom Seekers, Dr. Lee sits down with Donna Tashjian, an international life mastery coach, minister, and visionary behind Vibrant Living International. 

She delivers one of the most honest and transformative messages we've ever had on this podcast: stopping what she calls identity theft - the slow, subtle process by which our wounds, our failures, and other people's opinions begin to define who we believe we are.

And the antidote, she says, is deceptively simple: remember who you are and whose you are.

Dr. Lee and Donna explore what it truly means to lead from identity rather than striving, why you literally cannot disappoint God (and what happens to your business when you really believe that), and how Donna's business doubled the year she stopped doing more and started being still.

This one is for every faith-led founder who has been striving to prove something (to their audience, to their industry, or to God) and is exhausted from the effort.

In this episode, they cover:

  • What "identity theft" actually is and how it quietly shapes the way you lead and build
  • Why you cannot disappoint God — and the theological reason that is not just a feel-good statement
  • The difference between abiding and striving, and how to know which one you're operating from right now
  • How Donna's business doubled the year she committed to 10–15 minutes of stillness with God daily
  • What "spiritual intelligence" is and why it is the most underutilized asset in your business
  • The role of imagination, meditation, and co-creation with the Holy Spirit in building a Kingdom business
  • Why your nervous system is a spiritual indicator — and what Dr. Lee's right shoulder has to do with surrender
  • How to use "thinking questions" that invite the Holy Spirit into your problem-solving
  • The two kingdoms at play in every business decision — and why pretending otherwise is dangerous

Connect with Donna Tashjian:

Connect with Dr. Lee and the Regulated Roots Community:

Follow on TikTok: @leechelseacordell

Connect on LinkedIn: Dr. Lee Cordell

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to this week's episode. I am so honored to welcome Donna Tashtin. She is such an aligned kindred spirit, uh, international life mastery coach. She's a minister, she's the visionary behind vibrant living international. And Donna empowers high achievers to unlock their spiritual intelligence, which I'm so excited to talk about that, and to align their success with divine purpose, helping them to step boldly into their God-given callings without burnout. Oh my goodness. So needed. Donna, welcome to the podcast. So when we originally were messaging back and forth, you had shared a couple of topics that you thought would be really great for us to chat about. And there's two that I really want to pull out to start, but and I'd love to hear your story around these. So leading from identity rather than striving is one of the topics. And so I'd love just for you to tell our listeners a little bit about how you got here and maybe share you a little around that identity shift to I'm going to lead from who I am rather than trying to strive for what I think I should be.

SPEAKER_02

That sounds like a fun place to start and we can see where this goes.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I had traumatic teenage years and childhood. And rather than get into the whole story, all of that's on my LinkedIn bio. You can go check that out. But when we have difficult things in our life, and every single one of us have had disappointments, things that didn't go the way we think it would, somebody who said something they shouldn't, it begins to shape our identity. Whether we realize it or not, it shapes how we see ourselves and as well and our perspective on the world as well. And one of my favorite statements of what I love to do is stop identity theft.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I just got like head-to-toe chills.

SPEAKER_02

Like legit, like and the main phrase I say over and over to people is to remember who you are and who you are. And if you have those two things, everything else kind of works out. We get looking at circumstances, we look at what other people said, we try to picture our future through our past. And it's never our past successes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

When I did this amazing thing, you're like, yeah, no, I really don't. We don't do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We look at our future through our past, whatever we think went wrong, our mistakes. I really, I rarely use the word failure, but it's a feeling that we have that we failed in some respects. And we begin to look at ourselves through those lenses. And then we're striving, trying to prove something, to prove we are who God already said we are. And when we're doing it from that place, from fear, from our own strength, we're always struggling to be accepted, to be approved, to be loved. One of my biggest prayers, and this is a really godly prayer, is I want him to say, Well done when I get to heaven. But the thing we don't know is he already pleased with us. He already says, I love you just where you are. And another really interesting thing is, have you realized, Lee, that you can never disappoint God?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's so fascinating because the my brain just went, well, of course. But you heard it. You heard it. Well, it's it's fascinating. Y'all, this is gonna turn into a coaching session, which I'm not mad about. I for me, disappointment is the one thing that I try to avoid feeling and that God's really been working on my heart around. So you asking me that question was such a great evaluation moment of where am I at on that journey? And to anyone listening who just asked themselves that same question and went, oh no, I can disappoint God. Or I know I can't, but also there's that 1% doubt that maybe I could. Where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we we look at our human nature because you and I might disappoint each other. And that's the only frame of reference we have. And disappointment is one of the biggest areas that really can trip us up.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And it isn't it isn't that disappointment isn't going to happen. Things don't always go the way we think they should. Or, you know, have you ever had that argument in your mind? I say this and they'll say that, and then I'll say this, and I'll and then I'll win.

SPEAKER_01

It never goes out there.

SPEAKER_02

Never done that. It never goes like that. They don't, they don't know their cues of what they're supposed to say. So it's just so funny. And I remember when this dropped in my spirit is because for me, for you to disappoint me, I had to expect you would do A and you did B. God can't be disappointed because He knows what you're gonna do A or B. He already knows, He's already prepared the answer ahead, even if you chose quote wrong, if you want to put it that way, something that would cause you pain. God dislikes sin because it hurts us, not because he's trying to keep us from having fun. And I see your mind working.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh, y'all, I gotta say, okay, so I once had a coach who was not Christian, and actually in that process, I really drew further away from God in that experience. And I'm so grateful and I'm glad we're talking about this because that experience, I can see how on the other side of it, God is using it in such a beautiful way. Um, but it was very painful at the time. But I remember she said that if you have the option to disappoint someone else and feel clean and clear and aligned, or satisfy someone else, oblige someone else and feel resentful, you always got to pick the first one because you disappointing someone else is you pulling yourself out of a position that they assigned you to that, like it's not right for you. And either you put yourself in that position trying to make that person happy and you can no longer continue doing it. Or that person never really asked your consent and they just expected you to show up in a certain way. Like you just said, if I do A, then they'll do B, but you never consented to B. And so that disappointment is them really needing to look at their expectation and go, Well, did she ever say that that is what she was gonna do? And I'm I'm thinking through this of, well, of course we can't disappoint God because God appoints us to specific things. And like you said, he exists outside of time, he already knows what we're gonna do. So our divine appointment, it it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's all happening and unfolding exactly the way he knows it will.

SPEAKER_02

There's an amazing paradox understanding that God is sovereign, but he doesn't make us do things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that seems like a contradiction. It's like he's sovereign, he could make anything happen. He could make us choose life, if he will, but we don't often. And that whole relationship thing, that would be a whole nother session that we could get into. And I'm not gonna go dive quite into that, but the expectations that we have for others is most often what causes us difficulty or for circumstances. If let's say I'm a coach, I'm but I'm supposed to do this, I'm called by God, I do this workshop, it means millions of people will show up. And then there's crickets. And then we'll begin to go, well, maybe I haven't been called to do this. Maybe there's something wrong with my message. Maybe I should get another coach to help me with my messaging. And we go in a circle and we actually never really accomplish anything because we continue to doubt. And the other thing is we continue to ask other people's opinion on God's calling on our life.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. What does that mean? It's like God's call. It wasn't a conference call. So it wasn't like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I think the biggest thing about it is we're discovering what that call is. We see it through the paradigm, through the lenses that we currently are wearing. But my lenses today, even though the words he spoke to me were now decades ago, I see that differently than I did then. And it continues to grow and expand on what that meant, what his words to our heart meant to us. And when we can begin to realize that it's all about identity and who we see ourselves and how we see ourselves. If you were called to meet with some king or dignitary from another land, would you feel like you were worthy? Would you feel like your message from God, and I know you have one, Lee, would you feel like your message from God to them would be good enough?

SPEAKER_03

It's interesting you say that too, because there's a story that I'm always very intentional about how I tell it. And I haven't, I don't know that I've actually ever told it publicly. So I'm gonna leave out key details to preserve anonymity. And uh, I had an opportunity at one point to go uh in an urgent situation, support a multi-billionaire who was sick in a non-traditional setting. And I remember it was a very, it was a very interesting experience. I somebody came in the room and said, Hey, can anybody here start IVs on a very difficult stick? And I said, Yes. And they said, Great, here's the address, go to this hotel. And I said, Is this what I think it is? And they said, Absolutely, this is what you think it is, and also just go. So I went and I ended up starting an IV on this person. And I remember I was talking to their spouse. And their spouse said, Oh, what do you do for a living and what's going on? And I said, Oh, I I'm a bone marrow transplant nurse practitioner, so that's why I can do difficult sticks because a lot of times my patients they've been poked and prodded for years. These two people have single-handedly supported like millions upon millions of people in positive ways in the world. Just their impact is so immense. And I remember their spouse looking at me and saying, Oh my gosh, bless your heart. Thank you so much for the work that you do. And I'm just sitting here going, I maybe help a hundred people a year. And the that you can turn to me and say, Oh, bless you, bless your heart for that. It was such an interesting moment. And I remember after that going, was that even real? Was that even a thing? And what was interesting was is looking back, there was another person in that room who could have said yes and they didn't. And so I'm thinking about your example and going, the identity that I had in that moment was I am somebody who helps when it's needed, no matter who it is. And so I said yes before even knowing who the person was. And I think back to that today because a lot of what I've had to do, and a lot of what our audience has had to do, is they've had to uncover their true God-given identities under what I think it's Myron Golden. He calls it the lie identity that the devil places on you. And then your my identity that you place on top of that to try to like deal with the shame and the guilt. That was the beginning of really uncovering that true identity of, hey, you're somebody who runs toward when other people a lot of times hold back. And that's also been a very difficult identity to own as someone who's had a lot of past painful experiences around you move too quickly, you're too impulsive, like you're too quick to offer help. Those two words. Those two words, right?

SPEAKER_02

T O something.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So I know that was a long answer to what you said. And it is interesting to me how so often God's identity for people is hidden under those two words.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

One of the other things I wanted to ask you about was how you hear God's voice in like high-stakes decisions. And I feel like this is a great place to ask that because I remember hearing just a nudge that was like, Yes, you're terrified and your hands are shaking, and also go.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_03

How do people who maybe are do starting to do this identity work and really uncover who it is that like God's calling them to be, or not even calling them to be, like He's He has called them to be, He's created them to be. How do they start to hear Him more and reconnect with that identity more, especially when they're in those high-stake like positions each and every day?

SPEAKER_02

Well, this could be a long answer.

SPEAKER_03

Please, we've got time.

SPEAKER_02

But before I answer that, I want to touch one point that you said, and you probably have noticed this since then, is you begin to compare your calling with theirs. Oh, yeah. And we do that all the time. And usually it's a social media presence that looks all grandiose, is the most common thing. And I'm comparing what I'm doing to you seem to be so successful, or you're reaching this many, and I'm only reaching this many.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Your only thing that you are responsible to do is to do what God calls you to do. That's what gets the well done. That's the way to live a life with no regret, is every day, to the best of your ability, do what you're called to do with no comparison. I can cheer you on, and you cheer them on. You're talking about this couple that's reaching millions of people while I cheer you on for reaching thousands. Yeah. Because God doesn't compare. You can't compare a rose to a chrysanthemum. They're different. They're beautiful, they're amazing. Comparison kills, is one of the things Donna says all the time. Comparison kills. So when you notice yourself slipping into the comparison, stop because that's a moment you get to choose life or choose death. Because it creeps in all the time. And the thing is, it's so sneaky. It isn't something we're doing intentionally. We just do it. We compare it as soon as we meet each other. How somebody's dressed, how somebody's not dressed, what they're driving, what they're not driving, what they're doing, whatever it is. But just step back and remember, comparison kills. It doesn't bring life, it doesn't bring you further into your calling. So I just wanted to touch that before I move on to answer your other question. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Well, thank you for not just going ahead and sharing that.

SPEAKER_02

And so hearing God's voice. This is an interesting topic. We could talk for a couple hours on this one, probably. It's a big one, but it begins first of all to me in Proverbs 3, where it says, lean not into your own understanding, and all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths. So if all of my ways I'm acknowledging Him, which to me starts with stillness. Be still and know that I am God. But God, I thought this would happen. Be still and know that I am God. But I worked so hard. Why did this happen this way? Be still and know that I am God. Lean not into your own understanding. As you acknowledge me, I will direct your path. If you simply believe that He will direct you, that you will always know what to do. If you begin any decision-making process with those statements, with the moment of stillness going, I will know what to do. I always know what to do. God said if I asked for wisdom, he would give it to me. So I'm going to know what to do. Now yours was a little bit more of a crisis. It was a snap decision, but it isn't always that. Sometimes it's decisions we're contemplating and losing sleep over and all those kind of things. But when you begin to start with I will know, not I don't know. That's usually the sentence we say, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But what if you said I will know what to do? I always know what to do. God always shows me. One of my declarations, and I've yet have it not be true. There is not a problem. Somebody can't come to me that I can't tell them the answer. I don't care where you are. I don't care what you're doing. I don't care if I've never done what you're doing. I will find the answer. My husband and I have a property management company. And the first time we were putting in a hot water tank, and I'd never done this before. We're new property owners managing properties. It's one of our first ones. And he's going, We've got to sweat this pipe. I don't know what the heck sweat pipe means. And so I'm holding the flashlight, that kind of thing, in this little dingy basement with spiders overhead, that kind of feeling, you know. And he's like, This isn't working. And he's getting really frustrated. And I go, What is it supposed to do? And he explains to me what sweating a pipe is and what's supposed to be chemically happening with this whole situation. And I go, just give me a minute. And I close my eyes and I talk to God and I go, now try again. And it worked. It is happened. It doesn't matter what it is. There's always an answer. There is always a way. And I haven't ever encountered a problem that I haven't found one to. And that is one of the things over my life. And when we begin to recognize that and we begin to come from the place I will know what to do, it gets easier. Now hearing God's voice is different for everyone, but it sounds a lot like you. And I I preface this because we say these things like, have you ever thought this? Is that God or is that me?

SPEAKER_03

Yes. I used to think it a lot. Yeah. I the discernment has developed. There's some tells now that I can I can tell.

SPEAKER_02

And yeah, absolutely I've thought that. So so I'm on the right track, was my question. Is like we've we've thought that. Is that God or is that me? What if I do it wrong? That statement, if I do it wrong, is fear-based, not faith-based. It's fear and faith, you know, failing. And but let me ask you this. In John 15, Jesus prayed, and most of us agree that Jesus's prayers get answered. So in John 15, Jesus said, Let them be one. This still gives me goosebumps to say it, as you and I are one, God. So if I am seeking God, getting still, reading his word, doing all that I know to do to prepare my heart to hear, and then I have to make a decision, and I say, Is that God or is that me? The answer is yes. Because as we grow in our discernment and our awareness, it becomes one where, yes, it's God and it's me. And when we begin to develop that, the more and more knowing, as you call the discernment feeling, to me, I call it a knowing. I just know. How do you know? I just know. And when we begin to realize that. So the fear of the Lord and stillness is the beginning of all wisdom.

SPEAKER_03

That stillness piece, I think, is big. And I want to pull that out. It it's something that comes up time and time again when we have guests on. And I love to just pause and actually center it for a minute because the number one way, as somebody who studied trauma for years and who worked in these very high stakes, like emergent moments, the there was always time for a pause. There was always time for a quick prayer for that centering uh hey God, your will not mine. Right? Direct my hands, direct my path. And even if this doesn't go the way that I desire it to go, I will do what you're calling me to do. And I love what you're talking about and bringing in John 15, because there's a sense in this moment that you are co-creating.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

And and if you've never experienced that, I pray that you do soon.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

Because there's this moment in this stillness where you hear that nudge and and when you follow it, and even if you don't know, right? Like you quote unquote don't understand. I have yet to have one of those moments not eventually be this, oh my gosh, of course.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Now sometimes that takes days, weeks. There's been a few that have taken a decade. I've yet to have a moment that God hasn't given me the wisdom around why He had me make that move. And a lot of times that wisdom comes beyond where in the past I would have gotten dysregulated and started doing it my own way. So it's it's that ability to not just be still in the moment, but also to be still throughout your days and your weeks and your months, and just know like the wisdom and that peace that surpasses all understanding. And when I ask him to help me understand and and to do his will, like it's that never fails. And it's just I'm near tears talking about it's so gorgeous. And I think the more you experience it, the less you want to live any other way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it is a practice.

SPEAKER_02

It is a practice.

SPEAKER_03

And it takes more time than in this world with how distracted and depleting things are, especially as a leader. You're gonna have to be very protective of that practice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

How do you protect your practice? How do you teach others to protect their practice and to really center that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, one of the things that leaders do often is we have a success metric, if you will. We have numbers we go by, we have charts and graphs or checklists of this day was a good day kind of thing, or this month was a good month. That kind of stuff is we have metrics. And one of the things that God has had begin to challenge leaders is what if the primary metric was how much of that day did you stay in grace? Whew. How much of that day did you abide in every moment? Cleaning the bathroom to an emergency call from someone to filing to answering emails. How much of that day? I mean all of it. We always want him in the big things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But we were called to abide. That means make home. It means live. That doesn't mean visit on a crisis. Oh, Lee, I need you. That's not the kind of thing, but we haven't created that as a metric. So every day at the end of the day, I use a scale of one to five. How much of that day did I stay in grace? And it becomes when you know you're gonna count it, you begin to have more intention throughout the day. Does that make sense? If you know you're gonna crack it, you begin to pay more attention. And it is a practice of training your brain because it's, oh man, they didn't, I didn't close that deal. Uh and we think of that as failure. But what if they didn't buy today and I stayed in grace and then moved on and didn't make that about my identity, which is what we usually do. I probably should have said that better. I should have done this way, I should have done that way. And we step into condemnation, which is not God's kingdom. There is a difference, which kingdom you're operating in, and all of that is part of abiding. And when you begin to think about that, it changes. And I think we talk about having a success. Well, in the kingdom, we call that producing fruit. And so I try to picture like an apple tree. There's a new little apple on the tree, and it's going, oh, oh, I gotta grow.

SPEAKER_01

And it's straining. I gotta make my oh, I gotta do good, and I gotta really abide and I've gotta grow.

SPEAKER_02

But a fruit comes, it just happens when we abide.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The right kind of fruit. And so it's the opposite of the striving that I talked about earlier. Is I'm not trying, you know, I'm not responsible for outcomes.

SPEAKER_03

That is one of the things that we have it's it's one of those dualities, right? And and I I love him. Oh, I love him for a lot of reasons. And I love him so much for this because I was explaining this to somebody a few days ago. I said, y'all, the reason that Christianity was so radical, like the reason that Jesus was so radical was because he was showing everyone that in what they were trying to get, the way in which they were going about it was taking them away from what they wanted.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And all of those verses, I think of the beatitudes and and the story, not about the mustard seed where he's talking about having faith as a mustard seed, but the story where he's talking about how in the kingdom of God, the trees that come out of mustard seeds, like the size and just the exponential growth that happens from that. And he's talking about the sower doesn't understand how things grow. He just knows he's supposed to sow and he's supposed to care and cultivate and be intentional and that the fruit will be produced. Jesus puts the focus back on not just the what are you doing, but why are you doing it? And he also just takes out the you don't have to understand and you also don't have to try to control.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

You just you just need to obey from love. And it's so radically simple. And I see this in a lot of successful leaders, they are so used to producing fruit by from pure tension, like growing an apple, and they they don't know how to do anything other than strive. And so when you say to them, hey, did you know that you can not be worried about the outcome and still have good outcomes and do less?

SPEAKER_02

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

You can rest, you can abide and not be worried about what's gonna happen and still have everything go in a way that is divinely aligned.

SPEAKER_02

One of the things that we do is forget what responsibility is ours and what responsibility is God's. Yes. And we step into in the uh Garden of Eden, the serpent asks them to do something to get what they already had.

SPEAKER_03

Does that not just blow your mind? It's okay, so that's so funny because I just read this little book, The Garden by John Gordon. Have you read this?

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh. I want to share it with any new believers because it talks through the story of Adam and Eve. Because that story was confusing for me for longer than I cared about. Right. But it's just that he talks about that. He said he he convinced them to do something by confounding their identity. Right.

SPEAKER_02

They forgot they were already children of God who had what and the other thing that he did that was highlighted to me is he gave them the impression they were missing out. Right. God, God's really holding out on you. And if you do this, you're gonna get something that God's been holding out on you. And enticing things, do it that way. And the other thing that we get caught up on is that we're responsible. Whenever I'm responsible for all of the outcomes. Now, yes, there's a balance to what I'm saying. I don't want to go off of it in a ditch because if I align with God, there are certain results.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

If I align with other things, there are certain results. So there is a result of my of my choices, but I'm not responsible for making my ministry a success. I'm simply responsible for the part he tells me to do. I lay hands on the sick, he makes them recover. We each have a part he could just make somebody well. But he has chosen to work through man and women, mankind, to be able to make a difference in the world. And when I step into I'm responsible for the outcomes, I'm immediately stressed because I know that I'm not capable of doing the vision that I have. And so when we begin to have it from a place of intimacy and doing the things that don't make sense to our brain, it's like following the spirit. It doesn't always like, why does that make sense? Why should I do this? And then you see it has different results, but it begins to live from a place of peace. The things Jesus told people to do was to love the Lord with all their heart. And if you read that, it's talking about your passions, your intentions, your mind, your body. It means all of you. You love the Lord with all of your heart, to love your neighbor as yourself, and to believe. That's pretty much it. And so when you think about just doing those things in whatever your capacity is, it's who you're being, not what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so when we learn to be able to come from, let's talk about we may be doing a sales call or we're trying to promote some event or something like that. And I'm gonna go to the extreme, but on the inside, I am gonna do what I'm gonna say on the outside. Lee, I'm having this event. You don't want to come, do you? And even though I might say it different, if that's what Lee doesn't want to come, I'm probably bothering her. Man. But I know I need to ask her. Lee, I got this event. Are you sure? Would you like to come? It it could you might like it. And we do that. But if I'm coming from, I have an opportunity, I'm serving in love. Lee, I'm having this event. I know it would bless you. Does it feel like that's something you'd like to do? And it feels completely you can feel it just in I can feel it right here. Yeah. But who was I being? Yes. And that's what I'm trying to say. We can do all the right things, and we keep trying to get new training and get new systems and get new AI something or all of the things when it comes down to who I am being, and that to me is a continual growth of me stepping into who God's called me to be and learning how to be that by intimacy with God.

SPEAKER_03

What I find personally and what I hear from a lot of the humans that I am blessed to get to support is it is so simple that the assumption is then that it's easy. And these are people that like they are used to when they put their minds to something or like when they put their effort behind something being successful relatively quickly. And one of the conversations we have is I say, yes, and do you have such a high success rate because everything you try goes well? Or do you have such a high success rate in being able to control outcomes and metrics? Because if something doesn't go well right away, you don't do it.

SPEAKER_02

Good question.

SPEAKER_03

And a lot of times they're like, oh, so you you mentioned earlier this the word failure. It is, it's one of those words that's so so tough for people. And the the thing I see in my clients and in people in my life that have the most incredible outcomes, they understand that they can't fail unless they don't follow the call. They're like, the only way that I fail is by not drawing closer to God, by not listening to the nudges, by hardening my heart again. That's the only way. So it is okay if it's not even okay. It's it's great if at the end of the day I stop and I do that one to five measurement and I'm a one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because, all right, well, let me let me give that over to God. Let me let me lay in bed and pray and say, hey God, I was a one today and I'm I'm laying this at the foot of your cross, Jesus. Like I know that your strength is made perfect in my weakness. So here's my weakness.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

There are areas in my own life that I was so defensive and dysregulated around that, like, if people even tried to touch them or give me advice in any sort of way, I mean, it did not go well for them. And as I got closer to Jesus and as I really started intentionally surrendering into the those two greatest commandments, the defensiveness left. And even when it shows up now, it I catch it so quickly. And I'm like, oh, I'm being defensive. My bad. You know what? You're absolutely right. I I I failed there. Thank you for showing that to me. Because now I got something I can take in my prayer time to God and be like, hey God, help.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Help me lean into your understanding. And so it is one of the most difficult things to do is to unlearn the worldly way of, okay, I've got to do A B C D E F D A and I've got to do it all well nine times out of ten, get an A plus. And also if I don't do well at it, I gotta hide that.

SPEAKER_02

Right. If you think about how you learn to ride a bike, every one of us can relate to that one. Yeah. And we had a growth mindset of, okay, let's try again. Yes, I skin my knees. And somewhere along the line, somewhere where we get in school, we quit using the growth thing. It's uh, did you get an A kind of thing, as opposed to allowing yourself to grow and learn? Because I remember God telling me to do videos, and I go back and look at my first videos, and I'm like, oh my God. The same with my first podcast or the same thing. It's just kind of like, well, you told me to do it. Oh my God, I gotta put that online. Um, I did my best that I was when I started, and it's they're different today, and they'll probably be different in the future. But it's just learning and allowing myself to have fun along the way. And and from that, one of the things you mentioned at the beginning, I wanted it came up in my spirit. So I'm gonna circle back there is what's spiritual intelligence. Oh, yes. Would you like to talk about that?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes, let's spin the last bait here because I I'm picking up what you're putting down, and I have a feeling this is gonna be a nice bow. So please.

SPEAKER_02

So many of the times we've been taught in business and success, emotional intelligence and and even physical intelligence. But that was the phrase God gave me, and it started in 2 Corinthians 4, I think it's 13, where it says, the things that are unseen are eternal, and the things that are seen are temporary. And I began to look around. I have been in Christian community for all of my life, and most of our songs, most of our messages, most of our books, most everything is about coping with what we see, hanging on, trying to change it, believing God for different, but it's all focused on what we see. But we're a spirit, living in a body, having a human experience, and this is our earth, if you will. And but what does it mean to live from the spirit? And so I began to ask that question, and that was where the phrase spiritual intelligence, because I wasn't taught how to live as a spirit, co-partnering with God, he used that phrase, it's a phrase I use all the time. Partnership with God to bring better his kingdom to the earth in whatever capacity I'm serving it, to spread his light and his love in whatever job as a nurse or whatever. It's like whatever we're doing to bring his love and light to the earth and show who he is. And so that is the key of where spiritual intelligence started is how do we do that? So I began to teach people in a way I'd never taught before, as God was teaching me, like those downloads things as God was teaching me. So one example is we all have imagination. And when we're kids, we can do anything, we can be whatever. We use our imagination for fun and creativity and all the things that somewhere along the line in school, don't daydream.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we as adults use our imagination to terrorize ourselves. Let's just be honest. Absolutely. We use it to worst case scenario, and our brain goes, if this happens, I'll do this, and if this happens, I'll do this. And they're all the worst case scenarios. They're not if this turns out great, this is what I'll do. But faith is visionary, and let that set. Faith is visionary, and imagination is vision. So faith equals imagination. In Romans 12, 2, renewing your mind, what are you thinking about all the time that you don't know you're thinking about? Because you just think about it. It's that subconscious, if we want to get into the technical plays, but it's your quiet programming, it's your operating system that's running when you don't recognize that it's running. All of those kind of things. And so, what are you doing with imagination? So I have people practice. What is the one thing you would like to see for your ministry, job, whatever it is? What is one thing in your life that you're believing for? Can you give me an example?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. So my husband and I have a vision for a nonprofit that really serves men in this time and that allows for them to be better husbands and be better fathers and better community leaders by learning how to draw closer to God and be better sons to him.

SPEAKER_02

All right. So, okay, that's your vision. So I want you to spend five to ten minutes, at least three times a week, sitting and imagining that and what that would be like. And as you do that, the Holy Spirit will reveal to you things. And then what he usually does is, well, if I believe that's true, what's one thing I would do today?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then you begin to take steps from a place of vision, not from a place of gotta figure this out. How do I make this happen?

SPEAKER_03

So you are connecting a dot for me that I'm gonna share because I think that I know that some of the people who are listening to this might also need this dot connected. So, as somebody who practiced new age spirituality for a hot minute there, manifesting, visioning, doing those sorts of things, that was a huge part of my practice. And so I now I think stepped away from that because it was, well, I'm trying to imagine what I want. And what you just helped me connect was, oh no, you've already had the moment several months ago where you were sitting in church kneeling after communion, and God placed that vision on your heart. You know it's God. So why not continue to pray and ask him to help you envision that and then move from that place?

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

It just goes to show it's not about what you are doing often as much as it is about why and how you are doing it. What is oh gosh, I can already tell you have this scripture down more than I do. I'm still a newbie. I just finished reading the Bible all the way through last year. But it's just paraphrase. Oh every everything is allowable, but not everything is permissible. Is permissible. Yeah, everything's permissible, but not everything is is for your good. Is for your good. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And so it's like, but let me talk about a new age thing, please. Because first of all, new age stuff, they didn't create it, they distorted it. Yes. And so many of the times Christians will throw out the baby with the bathwater, if you will, and quit doing it because I don't want to get into fallacy. I don't want to get into that. And so it's a fear based decision. When imagination is something God gave you, it's one of your gifts, it's one of your creative abilities. I mean, the desk we're sitting at, the computers we're using was somebody's imagination before it became a thing. And if we want to go back into time, when God created the earth, he imagined you and me. And he created us. And he spoke. And it was so. I mean, we could go on and on about how things were created, but we want to step into going, I can't do meditation because that could be new age. I'm like, let's even touch the subject of yoga. Now it is a religion. But moving my body in a yoga stretch is not sin. It's the motivation I'm doing it in. And we and we get people who condemn the whole thing. You can't do a yoga pose. I can't do this. I'm praising God. Who cares what it originated that they were worshiping the sun? I'm worshiping the one who created the sun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm not being a little extravagant, but I'm trying to get a point across is that we begin to throw everything out with it. And when we begin to learn how God operates from the unseen, then we can really truly partner with him to bring his vision. But if I'm fighting it, so God gave you that vision at the altar. And then if you don't do that time with him, you try to figure it out on your own. Yes, that's what we've been doing. And what do I need to do? And what's the next step? And how could I make this happen? All of that is from a place of striving instead of me sitting with God. And what do you what do you see? What would the building look like? What would what would would it be online? Would it be in a building? Would it be online? What would this, what would the community look like? How would I set that up? And you begin to ask what I call thinking questions that allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you. And you know, what would what would you do? And if it's not my might nor by power, but by the Spirit God, what does this look like? Paint the picture for me in vivid color, like a movie. And then begin to take notes of what he said. That's what I'm talking about. Downloads. They begin to take notes of what he said. I mean, you talk about people who created things. One of my favorite stories was a guy who was an engineer, and he had been an engineer for quite a while. He was a man of faith. And nobody could fix this problem. It was, I think it was a boiler. Something wouldn't work, and it was going to cost the company billions, a whole bunch of money, and all the things. And they call him in and he goes, Well, tell me what's going on. And they describe the problem. And we keep trying to do this, this, and this, and it's not working. So he goes into a broom closet, closes the door, and he gets quiet. He goes, Holy Spirit, what's the answer? And he just he he was in there for a little while and everybody's looking at him like, What's wrong with him? He comes out and he goes, Okay, it's this. And he fixed it in five minutes. And we don't do that with our problem solving. We don't do that with our visions. We spend so much time trying to, God gave me this. Now I gotta make it happen. I gotta prove my worth. I gotta try to figure out the right people to talk to. And we go it from a place of stress and striving instead of grace and ease. I use the word easy button because I don't think it has to be hard. I don't think hard should be in our vocabulary. Yeah. If we're walking in grace, there should be no hard. There should be persistence, there should be intention and sometimes endurance. But it doesn't have to be hard because his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

SPEAKER_03

That's how I know I'm out. I'm not using my spiritual intelligence. Is if I hear myself say the word frustrated, yep. If I notice myself start to sigh more often because I'm holding my breath. Yep. There, and there's nervous system science behind this, right? If I am in a tense state, then I'm not in a surrendered state, which means again, I'm operating from my own understanding. My nervous system has cut itself off from the unseen. That's what that's what our nervous systems do when they get into a fear-based perspective. They cut themselves off from the subconscious and they cut themselves off from the external unseen reality as well. So you cut yourself off from God and you cut yourself off from God's wisdom that you've already intuited, like what you know. And so a lot of times for leaders, when they're like, Well, how do I start to have more discernment? How do I start producing good fruit in this more rested and regulated state? I'm like, well, there's it's two approaches. And so I love what you're sharing here, because that's that top-down approach. If you already have nudges, spend more time with God envisioning and praying for wisdom around the nudges. Have him show you more. But the other piece is notice when you are tense. Notice what language do you use? What does your body look like? What starts hurting? Because oftentimes things start hurting. Like for me, my right shoulder, if that's hurting, I'm I'm not surrendered. And so it's this it would call it interoception, where you're paying attention to what your body and your language and your physical sense is telling you. But then that no susception is okay, also let me get into a surrendered state enough to be able to think and to co-create. So I'm so glad you brought that up because it is a lot of yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_02

It's important to recognize there are two kingdoms at play. Oh. To pretend like there's not two kingdoms is fallacy to do that because there are two kingdoms at play all the time. And they aren't neck and neck, by the way. But there are two kingdoms. I wanted to tell this quick story as we get close to wrapping up, is one one year, many years ago, God told me, He goes, when he first began to teach me about meditation, and I want you to be still and know that I am God. And I argued with him. Have you not seen my list? You're telling me to sit on the couch and do nothing for 10, 15 minutes or whatever. And I'm like, How is this possible? I can't even get done what I've got on my list now. And I'm arguing about this. You can tell I had not learned about yet walking in craze at this point. Very much. It was something I was learning. And so I'm like, okay, he's telling me to do it. I'm gonna do it. And I remember setting my timer, and I'm like, okay, focusing on him, thinking about things, imagining things. And I'm looking and I look at my watch. It must be 10 minutes and like a minute, 30 seconds had passed. And we think we're doing it wrong because our mind twitches. So what I've learned is I bring a notebook of some sort to write, because all of a sudden I'll go, Oh, I forgot I gotta bake cookies. I forgot about this, I forgot to send that email. And I just write it down because while you're still, you start remembering things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And you're not doing it wrong. Just write it down, bring your presence back to God, whatever you were focusing on. Mine was be still and know that I'm God. That was mine. And I tracked that for a whole year. And when I did it, I did check boxes. I love check boxes on that girl. And I did check boxes and the whole thing. And that year my business doubled. But quote, I was doing less.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Is what you would think of, but I did it from who I was being instead of who I was doing. I was doing it by abiding, not striving. And when you can make something so subtle shift as that, and if you want some more help and more ideas, listeners, I'd love to talk with you too.

SPEAKER_03

I want to ask you one last question because I I think this is important. Even if your business hadn't doubled, correct, would you have been grateful for that year?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because intimacy with God always produces life. That's something to write down. Intimacy with God, the quiet time with God, always produces life. You can't help it. It's just where is that life going to show up? There's life in your relationships, there's life in your body, there's life in your emotional state, there's life all over the place. I mean, I that was just one thing I could measure. But there were so many other benefits from learning to be able to live in a place of stillness, kind of a mindset.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Because by the outcomes might not always be what we expect or what we desire. And I find that I didn't expect anything. I just wanted obedience. And that is beautiful. And uh for those who maybe are a little more like me, who you're 80% obedience and 20% your mind goes, okay. But what are God's still working on me there? But I'm not looking at outcome.

SPEAKER_02

That's the important part. That's not I'm not looking for an outcome. I'm looking for being still and knowing that he is God. I'm looking to know him. That's my hunger.

SPEAKER_03

That is the outcome. And that's an internal metric that you have control over, that you have responsibility for. How much time am I spending? How much am I prioritizing my relationship with God? Because that you have so much control over. And actually, you are the one who has the primary control over that. God has given you the free will to make that decision.

SPEAKER_02

It isn't saying I'm gonna do this every every day of the week and I only did it five. Yeah. I'm not I'm not coming from that place. Or I was gonna do it three days and I only did it one. You did it one. Right. And celebrate that you did it one and begin to celebrate what did happen because what you celebrate gets repeated.

SPEAKER_03

And ask yourself, why was I able to do it that day and not the others?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

What was different about that day? Because I think that's where you find the ease is oh, I did it before my kids woke up because I woke up early and I just went ahead and did it. Okay, well, there's there's a clip, there's a hint. So Donna, thank you so much. I agree that I feel like we could have done this for hours. If people would like to connect with you and thank you for that invitation too, our listeners, where do you love to live? Is what I like to ask.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I am on LinkedIn and Facebook a lot. I'm on Instagram too, but the other two primary. But my easiest place to find out all my resources, it also has my social media links, of course, is my website. It has my latest blog, it has a way to schedule a talk with me, my podcast, my articles, any events that I have coming up. They'll all be on my website. And that is the letter I, vibrantliving.com.

SPEAKER_03

Perfect. Well, we'll make sure that we link that down in the show notes and put it on in the YouTube video so that everyone can find it. And yeah, just thank you. This was uh I feel like I say this a lot, and I think I'm allowed to say it each time. I think this is one of my favorite episodes ever. And I love that I get to say that every time because they just keep getting better and better. So thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_02

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_03

All right, we will see you all next week.