The Intentional Table

Eating Whatever You Want Isn't Intuitive Eating with Katy Harvey

• Season 1 • Episode 27

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Are you familiar with Intuitive Eating? Maybe you take that approach with food yourself... or maybe you've heard of it.

But when you think about actually doing it, you think: If I let myself eat whatever I want, I'd never stop. I'd only eat junk. I'd never touch a vegetable.

Totally get it! When we think about intuitive eating, we often think - just eat whatever you want. But that's not really what it is.

In this episode, I'm talking with non-diet dietitian Katy Harvey about what intuitive eating actually is, how to start rebuilding trust with your body, and why doing this work for yourself is one of the most powerful things you can do for your kids.

Katy shares her journey from working in eating disorder treatment to helping women step off the diet roller coaster before it becomes something more serious. And she's breaking down all the misconceptions.

In this conversation, we talk about:

  • What non-diet nutrition actually means (and what to do instead of dieting)
  • The real framework behind intuitive eating (because it's not just the hunger-fullness diet)
  • How to tell if you're eating enough in the first place - because restriction might be driving the behaviors you think are "out of control"
  • Why you can't keep certain foods in the house (and how to start neutralizing them)
  • The specific challenges parents face with intuitive eating - and practical strategies that actually work

If you've ever thought "I want my kids to have food freedom, but I don't know if I can trust myself with food," this episode will show you there's a path forward - for you and for them.

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SPEAKER_01

Welcome back to the Intentional Table. Today I have Katie Harvey on the podcast. Katie is a Midwest girl, a non-diet dietitian, and the host of the Rebuilding Trust with Your Body podcast. She specializes in intuitive eating and helping women who are in or near perimenopause or menopause, ditch dieting, stress less about food, and make peace with their bodies so they can feel comfortable in their own skin and live life more fully. Katie is all about eating the foods you love unapologetically and without going overboard. She fully believes that you can eat for satisfaction while also honoring your health. And that's what I loved so much about this conversation is how Katie really manages to be both practical and deeply compassionate at the same time. She's direct and real, but there's this warmth and non-judgment in the way she talks about food and our bodies that just makes you feel safe and comfortable. We get into what intuitive eating actually is because it's not just eating whatever you want, whenever you want, which she's going to explain, and why doing this work for yourself is one of the most powerful things you can do for your kids. And there also is all of this practicality that goes into it when we're just trying to get, you know, food on the table for our families, make sure that they get to their practices and events, as well as feeding ourselves. So I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. If you want your child to eat a variety, listen to their body cues, eat the amount they need, and not be obsessed with sweets, or you just don't want to fight about food, you're in the right place. Here you'll find practical tips and compassionate guidance to support your family in navigating food with more joy and less stress. I'm Nicole Cruz, registered dietitian and mom of three, and I can't wait to dive into today's episode with you. Well, hello, Katie, and thank you so much for being here. I'm so happy to be here. I can't wait to chat. I know, me too. We, I was trying to think back about this actually. We have been like online friends. It's so funny when I'm like, I feel like I know somebody, but we've always like communicated online for quite a few years now. So I'm so excited we get to have this conversation. I know we align in a lot of ways, but serve kind of different populations. And so I think it'll be really great to get to chat through some of this. So um, could you start by just sharing who you are and primarily who you help and a little bit about the work that you do?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. So um I'm Katie and I am from Kansas City. And I help women primarily to step away from dieting and to learn how to make peace with food, make peace with their body, listen to their body, and take care of their health while they're doing it. And I sort of got here via working with and specializing in eating disorders. And so, you know, I've seen kind of that whole spectrum of what that can look like with our relationship with food and how dieting itself was often like the beginnings of a person's eating disorder. And it just became more and more clear to me that, like, the sooner we can catch people, or just the suffering that being stuck on that dieting roller coaster creates, even if a person doesn't have an eating disorder. And, you know, I've really developed a passion for that. And so I do a lot of um, you know, groups and programs and and online coaching for that. And I work with people one-on-one as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's awesome. And it's such a good, good frame to put on it in like the prevention piece. And as you know, I work a lot with parents, and that's kind of where I started too was working in eating disorders and then seeing, oh my gosh, so many of the things that we are doing and the way that we're talking about food in our homes are like planting the seeds for disordered eating. So if we can change this from a younger age, right? So I love hearing you share that story too, because it's going to like, oh my gosh, we're in the thick of it. How can we take steps back before it gets harder? Because I think you and I probably have both experienced that when someone's really entrenched in an eating disorder, it's even harder to get out of those really repetitive cycles. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I I don't know about you, you probably hear this a lot from people that it's like they had their own struggles with food and with their body, and then they become a parent. And they so badly want to prevent that in their children. But it's also like, I don't know what to do. I'm afraid to say anything. I, you know, I don't want to mess my kid up. And it can be really confusing in this world that we live in.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the main thing, right? Is this like back and forth between, I feel like as a parent, I am responsible for their nutrition and helping to make sure that they're getting the nutrition that they need and, you know, feeling good in their body and growing, growing well. And uh like, I don't want to screw it up or I don't want them stuck with, I have so many parents tell me, I don't want them stuck with the messages that I still have in my head, you know, like I don't want that pattern to to recycle and recycle again and again. So can you share a little bit then about moving from that eating disorder place? And you said, you know, really helping people have a healthier relationship with food. And I know you talk a lot about like intuitive eating and stuff. So would you say that you are more of an intuitive eating dietitian or do you work with different frameworks, or how would you describe that work?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I primarily use intuitive eating. I talk about that a lot. I think it's a it's a framework that people are sometimes familiar with, or if they're not, they can sort of wrap their minds around it because there's a lot of resources out there. And then the other language I use quite a bit is just non-diet. You know, we're we're taking this approach where we're not dieting, we're not restricting, but we're looking at how can we support ourselves in other ways that are still meaningful.

SPEAKER_01

That's what I was gonna say. Like, what does that mean? Right. Because I think people will go, oh, so you say non-diet, well, then what the heck am I doing? If I'm just non-dieting, like what's it? Yeah, it's like, okay, so there's like a lack of something.

SPEAKER_02

So what do I do instead? Yeah. And to me, it's about like, are we providing our body with what it needs instead of depriving? And so this is a little counterintuitive to most of my clients when we first start, but I think of it kind of like we're we're building those stepping stones to get them to where they're really connected with their body and trusting it. That it's really similar, actually, to the division of responsibility with kids. Are we providing our body with consistent and reliable and predictable opportunities to eat throughout the day? So that means meals and snacks on a semi-regular schedule. And are we providing our body with the different food groups and nutrients that we need, knowing that there's no food that's inherently good or bad or anything that needs to be off limits if you're not allergic to it? But, you know, within that, of course, nutrition still matters. And and I like to think more about nutrition by addition rather than, you know, what are we taking away? And all of that. So it's like, how do you kind of meet yourself at this intersection of what do I want to eat? What sounds good, and what does my body need? And then how do I eat that food while listening to my body and honoring my hunger fullness?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. And I think some people might feel like, on one hand, that sounds great. And on the other hand, where do I even start? Or how could I possibly do that? Right. Do you? I know this is probably different for every client. Um, I I know I work that way with clients too. It's like, well, where are you at now? And it's not always super prescriptive. Like, first we do this, first we do that. But do you have any first steps that usually are helpful or a place where if somebody has been dieting, that there's like maybe one or two first things that they would start to do to even get in touch? Or maybe it is more prescriptive. Like, yeah, this is the first thing we need to do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, for the vast majority of my clients, I do start with um the eating schedule as the foundation. And I'll just kind of say, like, I don't even care what you're eating, but are you eating breakfast within about an hour of getting up? And I there's nothing magical about the one hour thing, but let's get it in right away and not delay it until, you know, 10 o'clock or skip it all together. And let's get some food in your system and get, you know, your metabolism and your digestion going for the day. And then make sure that you're eating at least every three to four hours. And what that does is it starts to get our hunger signals in a better rhythm. I kind of explain it. It's sort of like we're recalibrating your appetite cues, you know, we're getting them going with your circadian rhythm and we're training your digestive system to know when to expect food. So if you've ever had a job or like even when you were in school and lunch was always at, you know, 12 o'clock each day, your body starts to know, hey, it's almost lunchtime. Like your body can kind of read the clock. And so from there, your body's hunger signals become kind of predictable with the timing and you start to get in touch with what that actually feels like. So I start with the schedule piece for most people. And then the next layer that I like to put on top of that is are we combining carb, protein, and fat? Sora three macronutrients at meals. And then I also like to throw in fiber. So if you can think carb, protein, fat, fiber. And then from those categories, you can pick any food you want to pick.

SPEAKER_01

So good. And I love that too, right? Because it's that simple framework of just starting here. And like you said, it's so much like the division of responsibility that we put those foods out for kids, and this is what we're looking for. You know, how are we getting in these categories? And then, of course, you know, it's it's hands-off with kids to let them then choose from that. But that's what our job is, is to provide from those categories. Now, I can imagine, and I've heard this from my clients, so I'm curious what your answer is to people saying, but I don't want to eat in the morning because then I'm hungrier all day. And then I have to eat more food. So I don't want to do that. Like I'm not hungry in the morning. I would rather just skip it and then I'm not hungry until 12 or two or whatever time.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, yes, I hear this all the time. I heard it so many times that I put it into my slides when I show slides on this in one of my programs that it is normal and expected that you are gonna feel hungrier when you eat breakfast. And that's a good thing. That means your body is doing what it's supposed to be doing. It means your body is digesting and metabolizing food properly. And in the grand scheme of things, there is plenty of research that shows that this is what's better for you. And you're gonna have better blood sugar management even later in the day, and you are gonna have less likelihood of overeating or binging later that night. And so I totally get that it can be really scary and uncomfortable. But once you embrace it and get used to it, it tends to feel totally fine. So it's like to me, I always tell people like, okay, just take the leap of faith and give it a chance. And if you do it for a few weeks and you hate it, fine. You do you. You know, you get to make those decisions for your body. But give this a fair shot and let's see how it goes.

SPEAKER_01

So good. I love that. Always just like, let's be curious about how this feels, right? Let's try it on and see. Try something different. You don't have to marry it. Let's just see how it goes. Um, so I feel like this is gonna be the lurking question then. And I know it's a kind of big can of worms, but if I eat more, then doesn't that mean I'm just gonna gain more weight and keep gaining more weight. Then I'm gonna gain weight. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Of course, that's the fear in everybody's mind, you know? Yeah. And I think that that's it's just one of the sad reflections of our society, too, is that that's always the lurking fear behind any food and nutrition discussion. Even this is sort of a tangent, but like, even as a dietitian, I don't know if you get this, but I think that the initial assumption people always have is that all we care about is a person's weight, is that like all we do is try to control people's weight. And it just couldn't be further from the truth. But like that is how our society orients itself towards food. And so this it definitely is one of those things with our bodies where you might gain weight, you might lose weight, you might stay the same when you are eating intuitively and stepping away from dieting. And all of that is going to depend on a lot of variables. Some of them just being, well, where's your current weight in relation to what would be your body's natural or your set point weight at this phase of your life, because it might be different now than it used to be. And I like to just approach that with curiosity and letting your body tell us where it ultimately wants to be when you are well nourished, when you're listening to your body, when you're honoring your health, and you're not trying to tightly control your weight. Cause certainly the goal here is not that we just eat whenever, whatever, and let your weight spiral to wherever it will, and just, you know, have to accept that. And I think sometimes that's the attitude in the intuitive eating space. But I think of weight as just a piece of feedback from your body. And we can be curious about what is that telling us and to also give ourselves a lot of grace and compassion for the fact that that is really hard and scary because we've been taught that gaining weight and being fat is one of the worst possible things that could happen to you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. And I totally relate to that idea as a dietitian, too, of that sense that it I also have people say, don't look at what I'm eating, you know, like that we're constantly judging their weight, their their body, what they're eating, all of these things. And I know I'm always like, no, like that says I want you to eat everything, you know, that's that's the goal here. Um and so you touched on this, and I think it's really important this misconception that intuitive eating is being lazy. It's just not caring anymore. It's eating whatever you want whenever you want. How and you touched on it, but how would you differentiate that or say, like, that's actually not what it is? What how would you just?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Cause this is one of those things that I've had so many people, I watch the light bulb go off when I say it. Eating whatever you want whenever you want is not intuitive eating, that's impulsive eating. And they're like, oops, that's what I've been doing. Because if we really think about it, intuitive eating is meant to be slowing down and listening to your body. And if you're just eating what pops into your head because it looks good or it sounds good, or someone offered it to you, or it's what's on your plate in front of you. Yes, you have permission to do that. None of it's off limits. But have you stopped to check in with what your body actually needs? And it's like that part of it will sometimes get forgotten or overlooked. And then on the flip side, we also don't want to turn this into the hunger fullness diet, where like you can only eat when you're this amount of hungry and you must stop when you're at a perfect level of fullness, whatever that means, because I've seen it kind of go both ways. And it's, I think this is where it's really important that people understand the entire framework and all of the principles. So if you're listening to this and you've never read or even heard of the book, Intuitive Eating, 10 out of 10, I would start there because that is where this concept originated from. And they do a beautiful job of explaining the framework in its totality. They they outline what they call the 10 principles. And if you're only using some of the principles, but not all of them, it's like you've got a jigsaw puzzle without all of the pieces. The picture's not going to fully make sense. It's not complete. And so you need to know what all those pieces are in order to put them together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's so great to have this conversation because, you know, we talk about here too, and I'm just seeing so many parallels, that you have to create what I call an empowered eating environment for your child and you need all the pieces. And if you're missing any of the pieces, it's not going to work. If you're doing the division of responsibility and you're saying, here's your food, you can eat as much as you want, but you're still calling chips junk and you know, saying, well, we shouldn't have too many, right? And you're not neutral with food, then this isn't going to work. And if you're just saying, like, okay, all food is okay, all food is neutral, and you're letting your kids eat, you know, what they want, but you're not putting any guardrails up, like you talked about impulsive eating with adults. Kids are very impulsive. It's age appropriate, it's developmental. That's okay, that's normal, but they need us to support them a bit. Just like that's right as adults need to support ourselves a bit with food, right? And do the check-in and do the slowdown. And yeah, so so many parallels. It's so good. And I think that's really important for maybe people that have heard of intuitive eating or maybe like dabbled in it and then said, it doesn't work. That doesn't work for me, you know? And and I wonder because I actually had, I had this thought when I was before I healed my own relationship with food, which I believe is a constant journey, but you know, really feel much more stable and at peace with food and all of those things. Not I I just never want to be like, I'm elitist and I'm healed, you know what I mean? So I'm always like, I think it's a constant journey, but really feeling more at peace with food and everything. Um, that I had these thoughts of like, I couldn't let myself eat what I want. All I would eat is crap all day. All I would eat would be sweets and I would never stop eating if I just let myself, you know? And so I wonder if other people have that thought or feeling too. And and and what are your thoughts about that? Or how do you help people with that? Or um, yeah, what do you see as helpful?

SPEAKER_02

I think that's an incredibly common thought. I mean, the reality is that in the beginning of that process, if there's been a lot of things you haven't been letting yourself eat, you probably are gonna want a lot of those foods over and over and over again until they lose what I call their charm. So it's like those foods that it's like, oh, I would only want that, or it calls to me, or I can't keep that in the house. Those foods have charm. And the way that we decharm them is through including them and allowing them and not just eating them, because this is another mistake I see people making, is they'll start letting themselves eat the chips or the cookies or the ice cream, but they're still judging it as crap and junk and unhealthy. They're not doing, which is another one of the principles, is making peace with food. And so we've got to do the mental part of it as well. But also, it's not meant to just be a free-for-all with those foods. I would encourage including them, number one, when you're hungry. So slowing down and checking with your body, and to try and include it as part of a meal and snack and that there's other foods maybe available with it. Like one of the simplest things that tends to be helpful for people that I work with is with sweets in particular. Well, what usually a sweet is gonna be a predominantly carbohydrate-based food. Maybe there's fat in it as well. What if we pair that with a protein for some satiety to help you feel full? So you don't just want to keep eating more and more of the thing. And it's gonna help balance your blood sugar as well. And so now we've got a nice little, you know, snack, or it could even be included with a meal. And that's different than just like grabbing the package of cookies and eating all of them in one sitting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Now, what about people that would say, but once I have one cookie, I can't stop? Or okay, I can do that with the sweet, but if I, let's say get out a string cheese and have a piece of chocolate or something, I'm just gonna want to keep eating the chocolate anyways.

SPEAKER_02

I think with that, first things first is getting curious. I mean, honestly, is doing a little detective work about what's going on here. So is it that that food has so much charm still, and we really need to work on neutralizing it? Another big piece of the puzzle could be are you eating enough in the first place? Because a lot of people aren't. We have a very distorted view of what enough food is, especially for a woman in our culture. And so if you're not eating enough, and then you are allowing yourself to eat something more calorically dense and really tasty, your brain is going to be like, heck yes, let's keep eating more. Because your body ultimately wants to have its caloric and nutrient needs met. So that would be my number one checkpoint. And that's where it comes back to what we talked about in the beginning. Are you eating consistent meals and snacks at consistent intervals with different foods? Groups, and that's going to help you just be more biologically regulated. And then the next thing I would be looking at is the deprivation effect. So you might be full because you're eating, you know, your thousand grams of protein per day and your fiber maxing and all the things. So physically you might be full, but if you're not eating enough of these things that are more enjoyable for you, then that deprivation, when you do eat the food, is going to cause you to want to eat larger quantities of it. And so that would be my next checkpoint. And then the third checkpoint I have with these things is more of the emotional piece. Are you using that food as some form of comfort, soothing, distraction, emotional regulation? And if so, what's that about? Let's dig into what it is that you actually need.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And that's such a good point because I think often we can have a combination of these things all happening at once. And, you know, for me too, I always go back to like, we have to get to at least a baseline with nutrition before we can even assess then is this, you know, satisfaction, is this emotional eating? Because sometimes people just the water's so muddy. But yes. And it's like, oh, I'm eating emotionally and I'm out of control and I'm this and I'm that. It's like, well, we don't actually know that until we know that you're eating consistently and getting enough.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think yeah, addressing that biological side first is number one, a little bit easier, but also more productive. Because once we've addressed the biological and the deprivation stuff, it's much more clear where the emotional stuff remains.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Yeah, because if if we are deprived, then that's always going to be fueling just on that biological need. Like our body seeks out what it needs, you know, just our instincts. And so it's really hard to stop that if we're not getting it. And I had a client, I want to say maybe even yesterday in session, um, just say, like, but I just ate a full meal and it was a pretty decent meal. And saying, But I still feel like I want to eat, like I'm having this drive to eat. And as we talked about it more, she said, I don't actually feel like it's emotional right now. Like we kind of checked in on some different things. And then we looked back at what she had been eating earlier in the day and even the day before, and it was kind of a compilation effect of look, yeah, you feel actually physical pressure in your stomach, like fullness is there, but that doesn't mean that calorically your body has gotten enough over the last 24 hours, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yep. That's such a good point. Cause I don't know if you see this a lot, but it's like the people who maybe skip breakfast and lunch might be kind of light and they're trying not to snack. And then, of course, you're hungry for dinner and then maybe multiple snacks in the evening. Cause yeah, for the total of the day, you haven't gotten enough. That makes tons of sense.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Like our body actually needs energy, it needs fuel. And the only way to get that is calories, right? It's not like enough, enough lettuce or something is gonna cut it.

SPEAKER_02

Like we actually need Yeah, I call that fake fullness, where yeah, you feel that pressure you were talking about in your stomach. But once your body has like absorbed the food and and sort of analyzed what's in it, it's like, well, hey, I still needed calories.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, that's such a good point, too. Absorbed and analyzed what's in it, right? Because it is, that's one piece of it in terms of feeling full and satisfied. It's like, are we getting the nutrition? But also are we eating foods that we enjoy? Like we have to have all these factors kind of come together to say, like, yes, you've had enough. Yes, you're feeling good. Um, and actually that I mean, satisfaction is a key part of intuitive eating, correct?

SPEAKER_02

For sure. Yeah. They in the intuitive eating workbook, they call it the hub. So there's this one picture where they've got satisfaction in the middle and then all the other principles kind of stick out from it. So yeah, I mean, I think I would argue that it's it's one of the most central components of it. And here's here's how I think of it too is like, so if what we're aiming for is satisfaction, well, food is going to be more satisfying if you're actually hungry when you eat it versus just eating kind of whenever, or like let's say you tried to go eat your favorite meal, but you were already stuffed. That's not going to be that enjoyable. So when we're hungry, food tastes better. And an eating experience is more satisfying when we're choosing what we like, what we want, what we sound, what sounds good. Um, even the experience of, you know, are you sitting down and enjoying your meal, or are you like eating and you're in the car and I get it because sometimes we have to do this, you know. But if, you know, are you multitasking or running a million miles an hour? That's not going to be as satisfying. And it's harder to listen to your body. And when we stop at comfortable fullness, that's more satisfying than if we didn't get enough to eat or if we had too much to eat. And then if if we're sitting around judging the food, that wasn't really satisfying. Cause then you're just like stuck in that, you know, shame cycle afterwards. Oh, that was crap. I shouldn't have had that. What was I thinking? I have no willpower. Versus if you ate something, you're like, that was so good. I so enjoyed it, totally hit the spot.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, absolutely. And I'm assuming then, like inside, because I I think to some people it probably sounds like, well, I do all of those things, right? Like I judge the food, or maybe I do eat something when I'm not hungry just because like it sounds good at the moment, or I I get it and then I keep eating it and it's not really that satisfying. So I'm assuming maybe inside of like your programs, you help people have additional tools for how they can actually make some of these changes because it's great to have the knowledge, but then like, well, where do I even start? Now I know I'm doing that, but it feels impulsive a lot of times. Like I just keep doing it anyways.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It and it is hard. Cause yeah, I think it's one thing to conceptually understand this at a very logical level, but to actually believe some of it, like this idea that food can be neutral and not good or bad, it's hard to get there in our in our heart, you know? Um, or even just like, yeah, in those moments where you feel like you're doing the behaviors you don't want to be doing, what do you do instead? That actually just came up inside one of my programs this morning. Somebody was like, okay, so I watched the lesson on emotional eating and I get it. But once I've already started in that moment, I it's like I don't even remember to stop and check in with my emotions or, you know, journal or whatever it is. And so she was asking, like, okay, what do what do I do in those instances when I feel like it's going off the rails? And what I said to her was, can we try to like notice when that's happening? Cause if you're not aware of it, you're not gonna be able to change anything. Just that noticing, you're gonna start catching it sooner and sooner over time. And then eventually hopefully be able to prevent it. But when you notice it, to just see if you can pause, literally just pausing and trying to get yourself back to like baseline, like regulating yourself. So it's that thing where, like, your kids, when they're having a tantrum, you can't logic with them when they're out of their mind. We just need to get them calmed down first. And then there may need to be a conversation later, but in the moment is not the time. We just need to help them calm their bodies down. And sometimes that's what we need to do for ourselves as adults as well.

SPEAKER_01

It's so good. I'm like internally laughing right now because I'm thinking one of my kids is going through this thing where, you know, developmentally they go through stages where like everything is someone else's fault. And so I could be in the other room and he trips and he's like, Why'd you make me trip? Like, what are you talking about? Like, I was in here. He's like, No, you didn't. And I'm like, okay, okay. And like, I think there's no zero logic around like, I was in the other room, or you left that there, or it it doesn't matter. It's just like completely somebody else's fault. Because right now, nothing can be his fault, which is okay. Here we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_02

And are you gonna tell him like, go journal about it? Of course he's not gonna do that.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But but it is that like pausing, which is so important because that's something I think is so useful, right, in life in general, but that we talk about all the time here too, and in my programs with parents, is like when you have that urge to tell your kid, like, no more bread, you've had enough, or whatever the thing is, like you need to try your vegetables. Like, whenever you're having that urge, how can you just like take that pause and sit with it for a second? Fight your yeah. Yep, it's really hard, which I think this is great because you actually touched on this, and I really wanted to ask you about it. Is you were talking about, you know, sometimes it happens that we have to eat in the car or, you know, on the go. And we have a lot of parents that listen to the intentional table. And so I think that can be really challenging. Like, what do you see anything? I'm assuming you work with a lot of parents and moms as well. Do you see any specific challenges that maybe come up more for parents when it comes to intuitive eating? Because I think we are on the go. We're preparing food for our kids all the time. Like, there's so many ways, like we just have to feed our kids on top of feeding ourselves. So I'm wondering if you see anything that maybe pops up more consistently for parents as they're trying to navigate intuitive eating.

SPEAKER_02

That is a really good question. And I'm even just putting myself in those shoes because we're in that phase of like, you know, sports and activities and stuff. So a couple of things come to mind for me. The first thing that I think is so important that some people overlook or it just feels too complicated or overwhelming is literally just having a plan. And I don't mean you have to like plan out the minutia of every meal and snack, but to at least have a game plan of like, when and where are we gonna be this week at dinner times? And do I need to have snacks stashed in the car or packed? Or if if the food is a drive-thru, that's fine. But let's have that be the game plan and not just a reaction to like, oh crap, I didn't think through dinner. So I think having thought through those things ahead of time so that you can be prepared and realistic about it. And like own your truth if everybody needs to eat in the car and and we're packing sandwiches or uncrustables on the go or we're getting happy meals or whatever it might be, that's fine. But that's different than if it's just a scramble because you didn't really think about it. So I think that's one thing is just taking a little bit of time to map out your week. And then I think the other thing with parents that I see a lot is they will make sure the children are fed and cared for. And then then they themselves are just, you know, sorry, there was no time for you to eat. And so I think factoring yourself into the equation, and ideally, you're just eating the same thing that the kids are eating. But if not, at least think through what you're gonna feed yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, both of those points kind of come together, right? Is just having a bit more of a plan, even for yourself. Cause often we do just plan for the kids. I have to make their lunches and get them out the door and feed them breakfast and all this. And then we're left with the two bites of bagel that they didn't eat or whatever. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

Just here's like an example. Last so last weekend my son had, it was kind of early. We had to be at like eight something, basketball, straight from basketball. We're going to birthday party. I'm aware that he's having pizza at the birthday party. So he's covered for lunch. I was prepared to stop and get us a snack, but somebody brought snacks to basketball. So, okay, cool. He's covered. I had not had a snack though, and I needed one. So luckily I had one in the car. But I knew that I wasn't, the adults weren't being fed pizza at the birthday party. And that by the time we were gonna get home, it was gonna be like getting into the afternoon and that I was gonna need to eat. So I literally packed myself a lunch in a lunchbox and carried it into the birthday party because I had thought through this ahead of it. And this is not like me being holier than that. It's just a practical example of like I thought through what was going to occur and accounted for it. And I was glad that I did because then I noticed that some of the other moms sitting there are just like, they had no food, no beverage, nothing. And I imagine that they were probably getting hungry. I mean, maybe not. I don't know for sure, but probably some of them were because it was well past a normal lunchtime by the time we got out of there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. I had a similar instance this weekend too. And I even told my friend, because she's like, Well, what do you want me to get you? Because they were running to Scramble to get food in between the games. I was like, I am so proud of myself because I was really prepared this weekend, which sometimes I'm not because there's just so much going on.

SPEAKER_02

There's a time and place for like, yes, grab me some tacos or a sandwich or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Whatever it was. And it felt really good though to have, you know, made that time, which it doesn't always happen, but to have made that time. And I did realize, like, okay, it feels a lot better to have this. And I was super grateful because going to your planning point, you know, sometimes we just do rely on the snack bar or whatever's there. And we had like a two-hour commute there and back, two days in a row, plus we were there all day playing baseball, right? Well, we've never been to these fields, and there was no snack bar. There was one food truck and that was it. So, and and it wasn't super in-depth food truck. You know what I mean? It's like they had a few options. But it wasn't like, oh, we can walk up and so it was really nice to be able to have, and I think that's important too on both hands. Like, okay, when if you're not prepared, how can you be flexible then and just let yourself maybe eat what you need, right? To get to get what you need in. And on the other hand, you know, can we think through a little bit? Like, what are the what is it that my body's really gonna need this weekend? How can I prep for that? And and so I love that starting with the planning and then being able to say, and then I can be flexible if I need to be. Oh, for sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

We don't want to be rigid with the plan of what because that's kind of like being on the diet of like, oh, I'm gonna like meal prep all my food and this is what I have to eat, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, but the plan is so important, like you said from the beginning. And being, I love that you said realistic with it, because I think a lot of times too, we can just go into maybe you didn't bring the lunch to the birthday party and you're like, I'll be fine, I'll just get by until I get home, and then you're starving and you're just like then I'm starving.

SPEAKER_02

And so then I would eat a whole bunch and then I'm not hungry at normal dinner time. Like it just throws off the rest of the day because my body's also very used to my consistent eating times because I do that. And so, yes, like it just would have messed me up completely. That was not going to be worth it to me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. And I think once you know, you start to do it more regularly, you said this, you do start to feel better about it. Like I'll have clients now that say, like, I it just feels a little dysregulated now. And I'm like, well, what feels dysregulated? And we look at what they've eaten, and I'm like, it looks like you did pretty good, but because it didn't feel very um, I don't want to say like like planned or rigid in that way, but just like they've gotten so used to having kind of normal eating patterns and something threw it off, it feels a bit like scattered.

SPEAKER_02

So your body's like, what are we doing? This wasn't what we expected. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

So so it is nice to have that. And your body does expect it, you know, and then having the flexibility in it, I think that's so good.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm also a huge fan of keeping snacks available for yourself at all times and your kids too, because you just never know. So, like I always have snacks in my purse and in my car. And, you know, that way whenever you're in a pinch, you've got food available. I mean, my husband was on a work trip this week and he was telling me how he got up that morning and they had to leave the hotel for their meeting before the hotel breakfast was out. And so there was no breakfast and nobody wanted to stop for breakfast, which baffles me. I'm like, I can't, my brain does not compute this, but okay. So he goes into this meeting, they're there all day for lunch. They were all served a salad. And then he said the only snacks that were available was like oranges and trail mix. And I said, okay, a million percent whoever planned the food is on a diet right now. But and I'm like, so you didn't have any snacks in your bag? He's like, no. I'm like, that's insane to me. If I am traveling, you better believe there's a bag of snacks in my backpack. And I am not going to be without because I'm not chancing it. Not on an airplane, not in a meeting, not if I go to a conference. And I just like it, it's automatic for me that I always pack that with myself because I don't want to be in that scenario where I'm starving and I don't have anything. And if I don't need it or if I'd rather eat what's available, that's fine. But at least it was there as an option. And there's a peace of mind that comes with that, where your brain is not worried when and where am I going to have access to food?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's huge to not be worried about it. Um do people ever I'm just imagining that people might, maybe not, but do people ever feel like, but if I have it, then I'm just gonna eat it?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can't keep that. I would just eat all of it at at once. Which to me is a reflection of deprivation that's been in place. And we want to work through that and again come back to, you know, are you pausing to check in with your body before you just grab and start eating something and really working to just neutralize that fear of having access to food.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. You know, as I say that and we're talking through it, it's making me think too about so many people that feel like I can't keep that food in my house. And I see this a lot with parents too. Like we're talking about, okay, maybe we need to neutralize that food a bit for your kid. And then either they or they'll say, or my partner doesn't want to have that in the house though. Um because we'll just eat all of it, right? And so what do you think about that? And is there a way to go about it that that is helpful? Because on one hand, it's like, well, you just need to buy it more often and stock up on those foods and know that they're available and you can have them anytime. And I think for a lot of people that feels terrifying and scary and overwhelming, and like, why would I ever even do that? Um, so is there maybe a balance, or do you recommend doing that? Or what are your thoughts if someone feels like they can't be around something or have it in the house?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I think it kind of depends on the scenario. To me, best case scenario is what you just said that we stock up on it, we have it around. My mentor that trained me, I remember her telling the story of when her kids were younger and she would buy, I don't remember if it was fruit roll-ups or fruit by the foot, but you know, you know, those types of kind of gummy things. And that her kids would just like instantly the box is gone. And so she started buying like 10 boxes of it at a time and they stopped eating it. And that a lot of times that is what happens if we will actually give it a chance to do this. Now, again, in the beginning, yeah, you might eat those foods more frequently, but a lot of times that will settle down. Now, if you just can't, or if your partner is like absolutely not, I'd I'd be I'm curious. I want to know what you tell people as well. Um, sometimes what I've done is like there might be certain um, like a certain shelf in the pantry or certain cupboard or even like a like a basket or something that has those snacks that are sort of designated for whatever. And if that the person who doesn't want those foods, they just don't have to look at it. They don't have to touch it, they don't have to see it. It can kind of be out of sight, out of mind. So sometimes that's an okay middle ground. Um but it's hard. It's really hard if you have somebody who's very adamant that they can't or don't want to have those things around. And if nothing else, I think it is important to get those foods, like when you're out and about, let's say it's ice cream or something, that sometimes you can go out for it. But you know, if it's something like goldfish or whatever, um, you know, can we incorporate it some way, somehow, sometimes? What do you tell people?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. I I'm with you. I think there's different, different layers of it too, of like, okay, we can go all in and just get a lot of that. And I have some different different thoughts on it, honestly. And with kids too, because I have had parents buy an abundance of those foods that they weren't necessarily buying. And and this is why I say it can be different because if you have a child who's very selective, and that's all that they do gravitate towards because they are are good with, like, let's say crunchy snacks or something, and that's all they ever want to have. And now you have this huge supply of them. Sometimes it can make it so that that's what they're eating even more of, actually, because that's what they're more comfortable with. And of course, the parent is the one still in charge of saying this is available or this isn't. But sometimes just stocking up and having this pantry full of them when they are more timid to try other foods isn't always the most helpful because we want to have some of that. We want to have some of this, you know, some of these different foods. And so sometimes in a scenario like that, I'll say things like, well, let's be reasonable with the amount we buy. And I know that's not a clear-cut thing, but you know, how much can you really get through in a week or so? Or when's the next time you're going to that store? Maybe let's just buy enough that not that it's scarce and that we only have, you know, one cookie per day or anything like that, but do you need five Costco size boxes of chips? Or do you do you know what I'm saying? Like there's things here where it's like, no, we could start with one box of something and that's okay. And when that's out, they they had some for the week and now we can move to other snacks. Or you know what I'm saying? So I think there is a there's that scenario where sometimes I will say, maybe we don't need to just entirely stock up on that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's so true that yeah, what's the context of the situation and the dynamics that you're dealing with with food? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah. And and like for an individual though, you know, that's maybe living alone. Like I've had a client, clients where I've said, you know, they felt like they couldn't have potato chips in the house. I said, you know what? Let's have potato chips at every single meal. Let's do it. Right. And then it's like, okay, now it feels actually like that's what I'm supposed to do. And then you get to check in a little bit more with do I even want these right now? Right. It starts to feel that way.

SPEAKER_02

And so I've had people be like, I started doing that and I realized I don't even like it.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Which always makes me laugh. It's like, yeah, you know, some of these things, we've just got them on such a pedestal that we didn't bother, you know, tasting it without judgment.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. It's so true. So, yeah, to the point of your um comment about context, absolutely. I think there's different, different ways. And sometimes people just feel really scared to have too much in the house. So it's like, well, let's meet in that middle ground and let's start going out to get it, or let's start bringing one box in and see how that feels. And sometimes that does still feel scarce though. And so then we need to have two boxes in, or you know, so I think there's also room to experiment and explore and see what's coming up with it to get to a place that maybe feels good for them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I totally agree. I think so much of all of this stuff with our relationship with food is experimental. Cause what works for one person or one family might be totally different for another, and that's okay. And that's why I like this type of approach that you and I both take, where like there's a lot of room for that. It's not like you have to do it this way and follow it exactly like this, that there's just a lot, like we've got a framework we can work with, but there's a lot of wiggle room within that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think that's what makes it so valuable too, right? Like I love that you said go start with the intuitive eating book so that you really have an idea of these different components and principles and realize it isn't just eat whatever you want whenever you want, right? It's like all these things are coming together. And it can be really hard when you're in it and you have all of these thoughts and things coming up. And it isn't just applying some rigid plan, it's actually working through it. And that's why having someone like you to be able to give some reflection back, to ask some good questions, to have people, you know, come to a place that feels good for them is so helpful. Um, but starting to do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's so true. And I think that that's part of what's comforting to us about diets sometimes, is it's just telling you what to do. There's something that is beautifully simple about that and appealing. I totally get that. And it's also unsustainable, unfortunately. So that's where the more complex work comes in. And to me, it's like, yes, it's hard, especially in the society that we live in, but it also is very much worth it. And then to follow what you're teaching with for families raising their kids, you know, imagine a kid growing up where they don't have all of that dieting stuff to reckon with, and they just get to be a normalized eater from the get-go. Like, what a gift if you can give that to your children.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, absolutely. And to be the one, right? Like the whole world, the culture around us is gonna give that to them. And so, what if you can be the one that helps them think more critically about that and is planting different seeds and is that safe space to talk about it, right? Like you're modeling something different, you're having different conversations. Yes, they're gonna get it from out there. Sometimes parents are like, well, almost like what's the point? Like it's it's everywhere. I hear you, you know. You know, and it feels like you're fighting an uphill battle, but at least we're not confirming that to our kids and we're showing them potentially there could be a different way. And we can't control what our kids are gonna end up thinking or doing or what their relationship with food is entirely going to be like, but at least we can know what we're modeling and showing them in the environment that we're creating for them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, one million percent. I mean, I don't know about you, but my kids come home and say, like, well, that's unhealthy. You know, they make those comments. And I'm sometimes I just drive right on past it. Other times I'm like, well, what do you mean by that? Or where did you hear that? Or what do you think about it? And and we can have those teachable moments. But yeah, you can't completely protect them from it. It's it's that critical thinking skill. I think you're exactly right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. I know my kids just a couple of weeks ago said something about how they both had done an assignment in class about having to circle like which foods were healthy and which were unhealthy. And this was like two years ago or something. And they never even told me. And then for some reason it came up at dinner the other night. And I was like, what? You both did that? And you and they both told me, and I was actually very happy about it. They both told me that um they said all food is healthy, and they circled all of them as healthy. And I was like, good for you. And they're like two grades apart. It was totally separate times, and I thought it was so funny. That is amazing. Yeah, I was very, I was very happy. And that even some of their friends were like, Chocolate's not healthy. And they were like, All food is healthy. Okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_02

So they are, you know, they are listening, they are learning.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. We'll see. We'll see how it continues to go.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, our kids, when they get, you know, the older they get, I hear a lot about the, you know, count your calories and assignment a lot of times in high school health class or calculate your BMI. And I'm like, please stop, please stop.

SPEAKER_01

I know. And and they put it in like other assignments too, like a math assignment or something. Yeah, is like a word problem. And now it's talking about like healthy versus unhealthy food or calories. And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, can we just teach math?

SPEAKER_02

Literally, yeah. Can we use some other examples? Oh my gosh, I know.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, well, so good. I feel like we have gotten to kind of talk about so many different topics. I think it's gonna be so helpful for everyone. Um, I would love to know. I know it's kind of a vague question, but do you have any kind of final words of wisdom that you would like to leave anyone with who is thinking, yeah, maybe I do want to really work on my relationship with food. Maybe I do want to take a non-diet approach um with food. Do you have any words of wisdom, anything you would leave someone with?

SPEAKER_02

The first thing I would say is I think it's one of the wisest things that you could do to look at your own relationship with food and and your own relationship with your body and your body image, because all of that will spill over into how you approach food with your kids and as their bodies change and and all of that. So I I think it's it's a gift to you and to your kids to do that work. And I mean, in my experience too, just not just with clients, but my own relationship with food and with my body, it's it's been some of the most transformative work, just like personally as a human being, too. Like there's this ripple effect that comes from it and this really beautiful way that you become more connected with yourself in the process and more compassionate with yourself too. So there's that. And then in terms of like, where do you even begin? If you're like, okay, I think, I think maybe I want to explore this a little more. Definitely the intuitive eating book is a good a good starting point because they do such a beautiful job of outlining like some of the science behind it and um why diets don't work and just really helping you get clear on that. And then, you know, from there, I, you know, I have a podcast. So I know if people are listening to this podcast, maybe you like other podcasts. So, you know, feel free to come on over and check out some of those episodes. It's called Rebuilding Trust with Your Body. I also have a um free Facebook group called Intuitive Eating Made Easy. And that's a nice place to be able to come in and like ask those burning questions or, you know, dialogue with people, or even just be a fly on the wall to like read through some of the discussions because it's just like the very authentic conversations are happening there of those questions that come up along the way of well, what about this? What about that? Or people will share like scenarios that happened, or here's how I handled my doctor's appointment and stuff like that. So I think those are gonna be great resources for someone who just wants to like get in there and start getting a feel for it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. That's great. And we'll link all of those in the show notes so that people can find it. And you have a great Instagram as well. So thank you. Yes. So if we could put that there, so fun. Um, and what if people want to work a little deeper with you? What is it that you offer? I don't know if you have anything um coming up in the near future.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so um right now I have the kind of my main hub is called Non-Dieters Club. And it's when you come in, you come in for a year, it's a membership, and you get access to my course curriculum called Non-Diet Academy, where you can go through that kind of at your own speed. So you don't have to rush through it by any means. And then we have this really beautiful tight-knit community of everyone who's, you know, on the same journey and all of that. And we do group coaching every month. So we get to meet and talk through, you know, struggles, hurdles, um, all of those things. So that's kind of the main place. And then periodically throughout the year, I'll do smaller programs. Like I have one where we go through the intuitive eating workbook together that I'll be doing. I'm not sure when this will air in relation to when we're recording it, but that'll start at the end of February. Um, and I have some other little things that I do throughout the year. It just kind of depends. But non-dieters club is that place where, like, it it that's always available to you. And it's the most sort of comprehensive way that we could work together.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. No, that's so great. Okay, we will link everything so that people can find you. And it is so important to, like you said, do this work for our kids. And I think sometimes people come into my program and then they'll start to go, oh, I have some food stuff too, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's anytime we're trying to do things with our kids, we bump up against our own stuff. It's like oof.

unknown

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Which is it's the journey, right? It's like parenting, you know, just amplifies all of these other things for us. And and it's it's a great opportunity, though, to to get to work on it. And and you deserve, you know, that piece with food too, and not just to give it to your for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, it is, and just yeah, to not be like thinking and stressed about food and calories and is this gonna make me gain weight and and just all of that stuff that can be constant chatter, like imagine not having that in your brain. It's so freeing, so freeing.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Some of us don't even know what that would possibly feel like. You know, it's like it's been so ingrained for so long. And so um, but yeah, think of all that, all that mental space that would open up and just the it's like I always feel this like lightness in my body when I think of that, you know, like what if we just let that go? How light that would feel and how freeing it would feel so good. Totally. Yeah.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Well, thank you so much for being here. This was fantastic. Um, I know people are going to get so much out of it, and we will link in the show notes all the places that you can find Katie and learn more about her work. So thank you again. I'm so glad we got to chat. This was fun. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Intentional Table podcast. If you get a second, please leave a rating, leave a review. That's one of the best ways to spread this message to more parents who also want their kids to have a healthy relationship with food. And let's remind ourselves, as we always do, that nourishing a healthy relationship with food is just as important, if not more, than the food itself. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.