You Can't Think Your Way Out of Food Struggles with Stefanie Michele

You've read books. You've listened to podcasts. You follow experts on social media. And you understand, logically, why you shouldn't comment on what your kid puts on their plate or how much they eat. And then dinner happens, and something comes out of your mouth anyway.

Or you know how bad you feel when you eat too much, but you find yourself in the kitchen at 10pm doing the exact thing you swore you were done doing.

It's not because you don't know better. It's because knowing and feeling safe are two completely different things.

Stefanie Michele is a coach, writer, and nervous system educator who recovered from decades of binge-restrict cycles and now helps people understand the deeper forces driving their food struggles and why they can't just logic their way out of them.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why you can understand something completely and still not be able to do it - and what's actually going on in your brain when that happens
• How diet culture and wellness culture keep your nervous system in a low-level state of threat, even when you're not consciously aware of it
• Why binge eating keeps happening even when you hate how it feels
• How your own dysregulation shows up at the dinner table and drives the reactions you can't seem to stop
• Simple, body-based tools to bring yourself down a notch in the moment - before you say the thing you don't want to say

If you've ever felt like you know exactly what you should do and still can't do it - around food, with your child, or basically anything in life - this episode will finally bring some clarity and help you see why it's not willpower, and there's nothing wrong with you.

Connect more with Stefani Michele:

✅ Podcast: Full But Not Finished

✅ Instagram: @iamstephaniemichele

✅ YouTube: Stephanie Michele

✅ Website: iamstephaniemichele.com

CONNECT with Nicole:

- Instagram: @nicolecruzRD
- Book a FREE Eating Alignment Call with Nicole to learn more about our approach and how we can work together: Eating Alignment Call

SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW:

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Your support helps us reach more conscious and loving parents who need these insight!

Thank you for tuning in and see you next week!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Intentional Table. Today we have Stephanie Michelle on the podcast, and I can't wait for you to hear this episode. Stephanie Michelle is a coach, writer, and nervous system educator who helps people heal their relationship with food, body image, and themselves. After recovering from years of binge eating and body obsession, her work now focuses on the deeper forces that drive food struggles, things like anxiety, perfectionism, emotional suppression, and nervous system dysregulation. Stephanie blinds psychology, somatic awareness, and cultural insight to help people move from control and chaos toward a steadier, more intuitive way of living and eating. She is the host of the full but not finished podcast and the author of the upcoming book, Regulated. Now, I am so excited for you to hear this episode because Stephanie shares about food and our behaviors with food in a way that many of us don't think about or aren't even aware of. She's giving us a better understanding of why we interact with food the way we do and some tangible tips to help our brains come back online when we're feeling reactive in the moment. I know you're going to get so much out of this episode. So without further ado, here it is. Welcome to the Intentional Table podcast. This is where we go beyond nutrition to not only talk about how to help your child eat well and get the nutrients they need, but how to also support them in having a healthy relationship with food. If you want your child to eat a variety, listen to their body cues, eat the amount they need, and not be obsessed with sweets, or you just don't want to fight about food, you're in the right place. Here you'll find practical tips and compassionate guidance to support your family in navigating food with more joy and less stress. I'm Nicole Cruz, registered dietitian and mom of three, and I can't wait to dive in to today's episode with you. Welcome back to the intentional table. I am so excited because today I am sitting here with Stephanie Michelle, and we are going to chat all about food, body image, nervous system regulation, binge eating, um, all things that Stephanie specializes in. So welcome. I'm so excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Thank you for having me because I've been following you for on Instagram for years, but I don't think we ever met in person until today. So thank you for having me. It's good to meet you.

unknown 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I know. Likewise, it is so fun because I feel like we make these connections, you know, online and places. And then to actually like get to sit down and really um have a conversation is so fun. So um, so would you mind introducing yourself or just telling people a little bit about um like who you are and who you help?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Sure, yeah. I'm so I'm Stephanie. I have three kids, three daughters. Um, and I'm in my mid-40s. But when I was 40, and literally like on my birthday, on my 40th birthday, I um went into an all-in recovery process from years and years and years, decades of binge restrict cycles. Um, so body image was forefront of my mind for most of my life, since adolescence, really. Um, and I at that time developed an eating disorder, which turned into just cycles of all the different kinds of disorders, orthorexia, binge eating, bulimia, um, and restriction. And when I was 40, I went into recovery. And after that, I started, you know, I kind of said, if I ever get out of this, like if I ever, if this works, if this, if I heal from this in some way, if I get out of this pattern, I would like to help other people do that. And so I now coach um people and I have my intuitive eating counselor certification. I just got my somatic experiencing practitioner certification um because I was recognizing the way the nervous system plays a role in all of this with our relationship with our bodies and ourselves and our food. So now, six years later, almost seven years later, I am um helping people work on all of those things because I think they're all connected.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah. Oh, so fascinating. And thank you for sharing that. Um, could you elaborate a little bit on that? Because I think most of us have probably heard the word somatic, but maybe don't even really know what that means. So could you share a little bit about what that is?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yes. And actually, I didn't really understand it either. Um, in the beginning of my recovery. So I recovered almost um cognitively almost, like I understood, I learned a lot about fat phobia and weight stigma and like how restriction and binge eating are connected. And so these concepts and the books I was reading and the podcasts I was listening to were very intellectual, and I prefer intellect. I I like to learn, I like to like understand things as a way of like getting wrapping my head around it. Um, but I was noticing that like even though I I had kind of, you know, I'd healed, so to speak, from from the sponge, I was still struggling a lot with anxiety. And I always assumed my anxiety was about my food and body image and that, and like depression kind of symptoms and stuff. So I was like, oh, like I thought that that was what all of that was. And here I am still dealing with some of these feelings in my body that are creating a lot of like rumination and like upset, like not obsessive thoughts, but I would just think and about things a lot and not be able to change, like distract myself from certain thoughts. Somebody like was talking to me about somatic therapy, and I was like, I don't know what that is. And they're like, well, just drop into the body, just drop into the body. And I was like, I don't know what you're saying. Like, like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know what you mean, really. Um, you know, as a somebody who went through so many years of being disconnected to my body and overriding its signals and just really hating my body. I I mean, my disgust for my body was so high for so long. I don't, I didn't have a relationship with it. So, so I didn't really understand what my body's actual role was in any of it. So I started to learn more about what somatic therapy is and somatic means of the body. And it it like learning about like what it means to drop into the body, to feel what the body is experiencing, to understand its cues and sensations. And it was a long time um that I like just researched it because I liked intellect, and I was just like researching what it was. And then I started um working with a somatic therapist who was it's like a very different kind of therapy. It's it's not about the story you're telling. It's not about, oh, this happened or this is how I feel. And it's about like you kind of bring in where you're at in a moment, and you're the somatic therapist kind of like works through what's coming up in your system as you, as you tell that story, like what you're what's like happening in your chest or in your stomach or the instincts you have to like run out of the room or things like that, like as you're talking and works with that, works with those like activations to to sort of settle them and make them feel safe. So I eventually understood what this was all about and how like using or understanding my body's cues was relevant to understanding my anxiety itself and some of my like depressive type symptoms, which are still prevalent. Um and so I was like, this is really pertinent to people who deal with body image issues and food stuff and even with binges themselves, like how often I realize, oh, I was in the middle of like a huge dysregulation physically, like in my body when I was binging and not having had realized that. So that became a part of what I now fold into the work. And so I spent three years studying that and now I get it. Now, now I can drop into my body. I still prefer to stay in my head, but I can I can do the body now.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Oh my gosh, that's so great. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I feel like I have so many questions. My mind's going a bunch of different ways. So let me ask first, though, because this is something that you do talk about about saying, like how our emotions are dysregulated because of diet culture and wellness culture. So, can you speak a little bit to how that actually does happen for us?

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yes. So this is kind of my core premise that you know how like when you go on, I mean, I'm sure that people listening will relate, like you go on social media or you open up your phone and you scroll past an article that's kind of like, if you're not eating these five foods, you're gonna die soon, you know, like, or you know, if even even just seeing the celebr this like celebrities shrinking in the media, like all of the, all the imagery, all the headlines, even all the books, like ultra-processed foods and what they're doing to you, and all of these things that are meant to be like, here's here's health advice, but it's really kind of packaged as like alarmism and pressure, and oh no, I'm not doing enough. Like I'm not, I'm not taking enough care of. I actually went to a lacrosse game of my daughter's last night and I sat down next to somebody and she's like, I just read this article about um sleep, and she's like, and now I feel like a really bad person. And I was like, right, because like we're you know, it's hard to get enough sleep when you've got kids like knocking, you know, coming in the middle of the night. And um, and like we do, we feel like really bad people. And I think that there's there's this um like impact that that has on the way that our nervous systems are interpreting, like, are we okay? Are we like, are we okay or not okay? Or am I doing something wrong? And I think so many of us live in a constant state of like threat anyway. Like, there's so many people, especially in this field with trauma and with um just different kinds of ways of feeling like we're on the back foot or we're not good enough and and things like that. That these kinds of the culture, well, diet cult diet culture and wellness culture kind of feed that. And that that's keeping us in a state of like not enoughness and scarcity. And that scarcity is is a threat part, right? Like it's it's it's not the part of us that's like, hey, I can deal with stress as it comes and I'm I'm curious about this, not threatened by this. Like the relaxed, kind of calm. I mean, not that that's the goal all the time, but the the place where we're steady and stable isn't in scarcity. And I think that the messaging out there and the pressure out there and the relentlessness of it with social media just be being constantly available and in your face is creating a lot of thoughts in our head and feelings in our body that are kind of flying under the radar a bit. I don't think we're consciously like, oh my gosh, I'm freaking out all day about the headline I saw. But it's there, like it's it's feeding us all the time in these low-level ways that are just like constantly chipping away at our sense of like being okay as we are. Um and then, of course, we're responding to that by restricting or like, you know, kind of painting ourselves into a corner around like what we have to do to be our best self and our healthiest self, which is then also kind of physiologically dysregulating us because we're not eating enough, or we're eating and then we're binging, and then we're going in that cycle, or we're just like feeling bad when we look in the mirror because like we're not good enough. And that's then like kind of it's like this cycle of consistently dysregulating ourselves through the media and then in the behaviors that what we use to respond to it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, no, it totally does. And I'm just kind of reflecting too on how, you know, I have clients sometimes that are working on their own relationship with food and their body, and they can say things like, I know it logically, but like I still don't feel like I can do it, or it doesn't, I don't feel it, or I don't feel it about me. Like I can look at all these other people in different size bodies and be like, they're beautiful. And like I truly mean that and I feel that. But like when it comes to me, it's a it's a no. Or I know logically I don't want to live my life like this anymore, like strapped to all this food stuff, but I don't also feel like it's even possible to let it go. Or when it comes down to actually sitting and eating that thing, I can't do it. You know, like it feels like something's actually not letting them, even though they have all of this knowledge and understanding, and even come to a place of believing it, but it doesn't really feel real or possible for them.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yes. That's what I call like the difference between like there's the cognitive track. Your logic is a different place in your brain than your than your sense of safety and then your then than your dysregulation. And because of that, it's like you can have a part of your brain that's like, I really do believe these things and I have these values and I see it this way. And it's like in in therapy, you know, I I get it. And I walk out of the therapy room, and then like later I'm, you know, in my kitchen or, you know, I'm in the middle of uh of a stressed, stressful state, or in front of the mirror. And it's like all that goes out the window because you you've changed the part where the where your brain is. And so the regulation at large has a lot to do with that and like how often we're we're in the state of of what I call like the scarcity state, which is inherently not safe enough to access those parts of the brain. Because we need to have a certain amount of like baseline okayness to be able to trust a higher level of the executive functioning. So if the baseline is more like we're we're not okay, like things aren't okay, then you can't get to the part of the brain that has values and like even forward thinking and consequences and like that can integrate more of that, those things that we know cognitively. Um, if we don't feel okay, it doesn't matter if we can see someone else that that looks okay, because it's like, well, they're safe because they're not me. But if we aren't safe inside of our bodies, we're gonna interpret everything through the lens of I'm not safe no matter what. So it doesn't really matter what we know is true, quote unquote. If we don't feel that that safety, we can't access that truth. Like it's not, it's a different branch.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

So is that what you're essentially saying then? That it all does come down really to that feeling of safety in our body? Is that what the like key is?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, I mean, that's yes, and I I don't want to oversimplify it, but yeah, I I think we can probably all relate to. Have you ever had like a problem that you're dealing with that, you know, you're like, I don't know, I can't, I can't feel calm about this thing, I can't feel okay about this. And that you maybe like one random day or like in a moment, you have this kind of like flash of like, oh, I it's okay. It's figure outable. Like I can do this. There's like a positivity around it or some kind of clarity, but nothing changed. Nothing changed about the situation. You just kind of can see it differently. I used that used to happen to me with food sometimes, and I would be like, what was that magic formula? Why was I like that that day? You know, like why was everything so much easier? And I it wasn't, it's not really about what you know, and it's not about the situation changing, it's your state changing. So if your state has some access to safety, which we can get through things like connection, even like you might notice that after some time with friends or like just even some downtime if you're really busy and you're not having a chance to rest and relax, that sometimes these kind of clarity moments can happen after your nervous system gets some rest restoration, like it gets it gets some ease. Because when it feels like it can take a breath, that's where there's safety. And in that state, we can kind of see the landscape a bit differently. Um, and so the name of the game is kind of like, well, how do we, or the question, I guess, is like, how do we, how do we then find more of that state? And that's a larger question. And it's like, it's it's a lot of different things that will contribute to feeling a sense of safety, but that ultimately finding being able to touch back into safety is the thing that sort of changes our perspective and allows more of our brain to come online.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

That's what I that's how I've put it together from my work as a whole. No, that makes sense. And so tell me if this is like related or not. But I've had this experience a few times lately with clients. Um, one being a parenting client, and we were discussing how you know, she's so reactive to the way that her kids eat and trying to like make changes, but having a hard time with the way that she shows up at the table and like the way that she's frustrated with what they eat or snack on, right? Like all these things coming up for her. So that was like one scenario. And they went on vacation, and she was like, it feels so much easier on vacation. And so we were kind of like trying to talk about why that is and everything. Then I have this other client that we've been talking about lately, or that we've been talking lately about her actually being sick. And while she's sick, she feels like it's almost easier for her to like eat and nourish her body. And so we're talking about like, why is that different? And then again, like, how can she apply some of that? And so I don't know if it's totally relevant to what you're saying, but I'm just thinking of how you're saying these like moments of clarity, them feeling so different in these different scenarios and moments. Yeah. It's making food feel different for them. Like, do you have any thoughts or on either of those two scenarios?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

It's so I like that you gave those two examples because they're actually kind of almost they illustrate different ways that we feel safe. It's not always just one way. So, in the vacation example, like, yeah, there's something about obviously, like when we go away, so much is often we're not in our own homes where like we don't have to do the dishes and the laundry and like we don't have to necessarily work, right? Like where there's so much less mental burden, there's more space and time. There's almost that sense of like it's not real life, you know. So you can give yourself permission to like cut away a lot of the noise. And just that, like, even just noticing how much less you are responsible for, and of course, probably environment like sunshine or you know what I mean, like getting to sleep in, these stressors are now removed from your window of tolerance. And your window of tolerance is like the capacity that we have in any given day. So if your window of tolerance has like more space, you have more space. And then you're like, okay, that's gonna feel safer in your whole system because your system's not trying to manage all these different things like all the time. Because our nervous system's not just managing like stress we can see, like like what's happening day to day. It's also like the invisible load, you know, of like all the things we're carrying, big and small, you know, in all the different roles that we have in our lives. And so when some of that gets removed, it's like we, there's a, I mean, you can imagine, you know, the part of us that's like, all right, I don't have to rush. I don't, I'm not responsible for a thousand things today. Like I have time, even just time and space. I always say that, like, when I have time and space, I just feel, oh my gosh, like changes everything. So there's room there then to be like, there's some kind of safety buffer. And then that allows clarity to descend. It allows us to slow down because the fast pace keeps us in that fight or flight kind of motion. But in the sick, in the one where you said your client like has sickness, you'd almost think it would be the opposite because um feeling sick is like obviously a burden to the nervous system as well in some way. And and I've seen I I actually have work with clients who will have one or the opposite reaction, like either they binge a lot more or they get more symptomatic when they're sick, or the opposite. Like they'll they'll feel like it's actually easier. And in the case of it feeling easier, I think I this is my theory on it. Sometimes when we're sick, we're giving ourselves permission to not do as much. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, okay, well, I'm sick, so I can rest. I deserve it now. Or I need to just like feed my body because I'm, you know, I you don't have as much like energy to spend perfecting everything. Like it's you, and I think there's a part of our own brain that's like, all right, you get a pass while you're sick. And that can clear space because if normally we're more like, okay, it's got to be this way, this way, this way, and like I need control, and we're like spending all our spoons like trying to control things. Well, when you're sick, then it's almost like a vacation, you know, like it's the same kind of idea, just it's just the way our minds have figured out like what when we deserve what. I see that a lot with sometimes where like sickness is almost a reprieve. And I wonder if that's partly related.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense, um, especially in this scenario, you know? So just just thinking about the way that our brain works and and sees it. And it's that perception again, too, though, right? Of like having that permission or almost even like the surrender of it, like, well, there's almost nothing else I can do. So here I am, right? It's just like, okay. And it isn't all this other noise about, well, I should be doing more of this and more of that, more that it's almost like I just have to be here. Um, so just thinking of it through that that lens is really helpful. Um, you brought up binging, and I know that's something that you talk a lot about too. So, how do you see binge eating play out in these scenarios um around the nervous system regulation?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Not one straightforward way. So I feel like um there's so many different ways that binge eating and the nervous system interact. Um, so I can give you some examples. So, so in my own experience, and I'll I can speak to that probably most um passionately, um I was a restrict binger. So, so my binging came from my restricting, at least in part. So I was somebody who was always trying to manage my body size through food. And so I have, I'm also somebody who I have a real, I have a big appetite. Like I'm a hearty eater. And I, that was so inconvenient for me. And it was just like, oh, you know, like I'm eating, I just always thought I was eating too much. Even when I was eating like normally, quote unquote, sometimes, or what I thought was normally, like I was like, isn't this enough? I'm not restricting, like this is normal, but it wasn't enough for me. So eventually my body was like, This isn't working. I can't sustain this. And so it started to ask for food and demanded an. These in these binges. Um, in that way, like when I think about that now, I'm like, okay, so my body was basically under stress a lot because it was not getting the things that it didn't wasn't getting the food it needed. I was fasting, I was like eliminating carbs, I was doing everything I could to avoid food. Um, and so like from a on a like baseline physiological level, the amount of control that we're putting, like the amount that we're controlling our food is a physiological threat to the to the system. So even where, like, we're not talking about like stress and time and space and stuff like that, we're just talking about like basic needs. There's that part of the dysregulation that I think is kind of like primary. It's like the bottom layer of the pyramid that if you're not getting physiological needs met, then you're gonna have a really hard time regulating emotions, you know, like, and that's usually where binge eating is talked about, like that it's a dysregulation of emotions. And that's true, and that can also be primary. But if we're also not eating enough, your body's gonna be like, I don't have, I don't have the luxury of like working on emotions right now. I have to get, I have to get this basic thing met. And so the binge can be the way that the physiology is saying, I need regulation down here, like at this level. But even where that's not the issue, because not everybody who binges is restricting, although it is very common that it is, and like much less um identified, I think. But um mental restriction. So even like the judgment of ourselves with food and the way that we're talking, even if you binge every day, you know, but you're like hating yourself for it, you're always thinking like tomorrow is the next is the day I'm gonna get better, or you know, even sometimes with this, the surrender of like, and and not the good kind of surrender, the kind of the like I'm helpless to food, I just have no control. You know, that kind of talking to ourselves or berating ourselves through our about our bodies and stuff like that is also dysregulation. Like it's also where the nervous system perceives that we're not, like it's kind of alone. It doesn't have it ourselves as an ally. So it's kind of like always, always on edge, you know, kind of waiting for the next shoe to drop or like feeling like we're wrong all the time. Like there's an impact of our own psychology on dysregulation as well. It's like as if, you know, if you had somebody always tapping you on the shoulder, telling you how bad you were, or like how bad you looked, you know, like eventually you start to become dysregulated by that because you're not safe. Like it doesn't feel like it's a safety thing. And so, you know, binging can be a way that we're like, or the dysregulation can come from the binging itself, too, in that way. And and also um the emotional piece of like that's where that emotional dysregulation of feeling like we're not safe in that landscape, right? Like we're not um, like we're not safe with ourselves, like and that sort of place. And then binging can also become the way that we escape that. So it's both at that point, right? Like it can be the dysregulator, but then it also is the way that we're managing what that feels like. So, like in order to get away from the, from that, from that dysregulation, food, food is really soothing. It's really sensory. It's very, and going back to the somatics, like our nervous system does respond to to the body, right? So even the grounding of food in in the stomach or or the soothing, you know, like where we we do have soothing tied to, you know, right right from birth. Like food is is warm and comforting and nurturing. And that part can be like what actually is trying to soothe the dysregulation, and then obviously it like creates more. And then that's why I think binging is such an insidious cycle because what helps it hurts it, and what hurts it helps it. And and it's like this pattern is really hard to break. Cause then how do you find safety? Because you're like the thing that I go to for safety is also the thing that creates the lack of it. And that's really that's what I'm working on with glance in some cases, where it's like where we've got to start small. It's not just a matter of like, okay, let's find safety. That's so that's too simplistic. So um, and that's slow, and it's a it's a lot of time to to to break that cycle into into figure out like what is going to, how do we, how do we approach safety when food is both of those things?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah. And that's like I think what comes up for a lot of people is this, and and I think you're kind of describing it, the the like cycle because you're going to it for that soothing and for that safety. Because I guess what I'm trying to get at is like some people feel like I feel so crappy when I binge. I feel so crappy about myself. I I hate everything about it. Yeah. Why the heck do I keep doing it and putting myself through this? So it could you maybe elaborate a bit more on that?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

There's there's a whole bunch of different ways to think about that. Like, so that's like kind of almost um about learning. Like, how do how does our nervous system learn? So, yes, it feels crappy. I mean, no one's gonna argue with that. It feels crappy on a conscious level, right? Like we, it can also feel crappy otherwise. It can feel like physically uncomfortable to binge. I mean, I know that I sat in like extreme amounts of discomfort so many times and was like, how do I, why do I, why am I not making that association? Like, why do I not? But it's kind of also like, well, your brain likes to learn in what in what's closest. So before I got to a great amount of discomfort with a binge, which was also, by the way, like, yes, it was physically uncomfortable, but it was also a lot about my own judgment of myself and like gain, fear of weight gain, which in a way was also kind of what I was addicted to. I was like addicted to sometimes we're addicted to our own patterns, right? So, like there's something potentially unconscious there. It's not conscious to you in terms of consciously, you're like, this sucks, but unconsciously, you're like, this is familiar, this is familiar. And what's familiar is safe, even if it's not consciously great, you know? Um, and so that's another loop that's tricky because yes, like you're reinforcing, like, sorry, instead of reinforcing this is uncomfortable, why don't I stop? You're sort of reinforcing this is predictable, this is familiar, this works for a hot minute, then we get, then we get upset about it. But that comes later. So the the immediate comfort of something is going to be coded much more readily than like the aftermath a few hours later or the next day. Or sometimes, you know, it's kind of like, oh, like when the scale, when I can't put my clothes on, right? Like it's kind of like, why don't I learn that food is the thing that caught, you know, when I'm binging, that's why I'm gaining weight. It's like, well, that is so far apart from like a consequence point of view. What's happening more immediately is the soothing. And that's what's gonna get coded first because that's the closest safety. So that's that's one of the ways like in which, again, those parts of the brain are at play. Like executive functioning is pairing consequence with action. That's a higher level. The immediate gratification is gonna be coded first as the safest thing and the familiarity. Um, and that kind of like addict, I call it like an addiction to chaos thing. Like I grew up in a household that was like high and low and high and low, and like just very volatile, and then it'd be calm and then it'd be very volatile. And that I was like, this is like my binge restrict. Like it was just, it was, and that was kind of what my pattern was for everything, like highs and lows, and high. And I think even though I suffered for it, it was also like, yeah, but this is how we do things, this is what we know. And so it almost would like call it up. Um, you know, not that you're consciously doing that, but like that's what you're almost like your nervous system's predicting it, and so it's creating it in a way.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I think that happens. Yeah, no, I get that. Like, I think part of what you're saying, right, is too like maybe you whether it could be even like a physical trigger, like I walk in the house at this time of day and this is what I do. And so then like we go to it, or it could be, okay, I start to feel a certain way. Oh, this is what I do and I feel this way. So we're not thinking about the it even if we are thinking about it, because sometimes we are like, oh, I don't want to feel bad later, don't do it, don't do it. But there's such a drive. It feels like it's like out of control, this drive.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

And I think what you're saying is that's that like subconscious, underlying though, connection and feeling of like yes, and and that so it's like one of those things where I think that what I what I like to help people understand here is that that's really frustrating. Like when you think about that, it's like, well, that sucks because how do you then act on your conscious will and your conscious goals and values, you know, if everything's being dictated by this primal sense of familiarity or safety seeking. And that's the first thing I'd like to do with that is be like, well, first we have to have compassion for that. Like, it's not because you're broken, it's not because you're doing something wrong. It's a coding that's happening, but happening below your consciousness. And I think that that's really important to understand because we so often do not understand our own behavior. We're like, why am I why am I self-sabotaging? I hear that all the time. Like, and I'm like, it is self-sabotage. Like if you're looking at it like this. But if you look at it like this through the lens of your nervous system, it's not. It's actually very purposeful. And if we can kind of like be like, okay, that's frustrating, that's annoying, but it's not me. It's it's I think we we change it from I'm frustrated or I hate, like I'm angry at myself to I'm frustrated, I'm angry about it. You know, like this is a hard situation, but not that I'm causing it. And I think again, anytime we're in that self-blame place, we're dysregulating, just like furthering the need to have this safety code. So that's step one, I think. And then looking at like longer term, longer range ways of like how do we work towards basically getting our nervous system to a place where it doesn't need to be so primal. Because as long as we're under that threat, as long as we're dysregulated, that's when we're going to the primal place. That's where we're like, forget everything I know. I need to go to like, it's kind of like the way, I don't know, if you're if a bear is in front of you, you know, you're not gonna be like, well, should I go that way or should I go that way? Because that way is this, and you know, like you're not sitting there with like, you're just running. Like you just go. You don't think about it, you just move. There's much less nuance when you're dysregulated. You just have to act. So your immediate instincts are gonna come first. You're not gonna be up here. But if you understand that the bear is far away, or if you understand that like the bear is not gonna come get you, or like that there's some safety between you and the bear, that's when you can be like, all right, I'm I have enough time and space between me and the bear to be able to like strategize my exit or like figure out what to do. That's where executive functioning comes in. That's where your conscious will can be a factor. But we our baseline has to be enough, have enough stability in it for that to happen. So, like we have to think about what provides us with safety and stability. And that's gonna be lots of different things and may involve changing things in our lifestyle sometimes, or like definitely like eating enough and things like that, how we're talking to ourselves, what kind of social media we're ingesting. Like all these little things that are constantly chipping away at our stress and like taking up our window of tolerance have to do with how regulated we're gonna be at large and how much our primal instincts are gonna be controlling us versus our executive functioning is gonna be helping us, right? So that's kind of the name of the game with somatic therapy and with just working on this nervous system regulation and what it has to do with eating and body image in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, I get that. And like what I'm hearing from that, right, is that we can have tools for this. Like if we feel like, okay, when this certain time of day I come home and I'm about to binge eat, or like these things set me up for that. And we might have some tools or strategies that could help us kind of get through that in the moment. But if we aren't working on all the other things, none of those are going to be that effective, you know?

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Totally. And that's why a lot of times on um I'll get messages on Instagram like, can I have a tip for this? Or can I have a tip for that? And I'm like, I can give you a tip, but don't rely on it too much because a tip is a short-term quick fix, right? It's something that you you just employ right then and there. But the real regulation is much longer term. It's it's it's a it's an effort in like the grand scheme of things. That's really what's going to make a difference. And that's not to say that the short-term tools and tips can't be helpful towards regulation. For example, um, you know, I run fast, like I, my nervous system runs like a little fighter flighty, you know? And and so I can be kind of up here sometimes, which can lend itself to some impulsivity at times, right? Like, not necessarily with food anymore, but with with with things. And sometimes I get frustrated at myself too, because I'm like, Stephanie, slow down, just think a little bit first. And sometimes I'll do like, so I'm a fan of um, I don't do breath work per se, but like sometimes I'll just, I'll notice how shallow my breath is, right? Like I'll be like, oh my gosh, like my my breath is all up in my chest. Like, if I like take an actual deeper breath and let my lungs expand and then let my exhale go a little longer than normal. Like, honestly, I even just doing that right now, I can feel like a different, I can feel just an incremental, like more slow, incrementally more slow. And I'm like, oh, you're right, you can see more of the room in a space like that. Like, so there's there's different ways that you can do like somatic, you can use somatic tools to help your body basically be like, everything's fine. Like, we're just excited to be on a podcast. Like it, you know, like slow down. It's okay. And even that cue of like helping the body kind of come down, that's body led, not mind-led. So it's like, oh, right, the body, we have to help the body understand safety first. And sometimes we just get in patterns of like, when I walk into the house, like my breath is up here, my, my, my eyes are narrowed. I'm already in a state physically for binging. Like I'm almost like preparing for, or I'm worried about it. So I'm now I'm like nervous, I'm gonna binge. And like, and what our muscles are doing, what our blood flow is doing, what our breath is doing in a moment like that is actually reinforcing back to the brain that yes, this is in fact a problem. Like, this is we're we are dysregulating. So sometimes those like tools of reverse engineering it and like helping the system come down can actually have an effect of like, oh, right, I can see more now. Like I broke that almost trance I was in, that habit pathway that I get in. Like, okay, what can I see from this vantage point? And those can be helpful. And that is also a way that we can learn to regulate. I'm not against that, you know, I and I I think those are useful. And I think that like the longer-term dysregulation probably, you know, needs some attention too. Um, because we we go right back into those patterns.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Yeah, for sure. And maybe that's why to some degree, sometimes people feel too like they're like white knuckling it a bit or like can get through it sometimes, but not consistently, because they aren't necessarily changing maybe some of the things that are constantly dysregulating the nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Exactly. And like, I mean, one of the best examples is social media, right? Like if we're on our phones, like we're constantly going to be bombarded with imagery that's suggesting to us, especially in this day and age, right? Every day that there is something suggesting to you you are not doing enough and that everyone around you is losing weight or eating healthier or like all these pressure systems, not just with food, with everything. Um, and those nudge you, you know, those will get you feeling that way. And we don't even notice that. So as long as we're ingesting that all the time, it's gonna be really hard to keep up with that. And awareness matters. I think that like knowing that is part of it because we can understand where the triggers are happening and like what's contributing to it. But also awareness, awareness matters to an extent, but it's also getting in there anyway. You know, like you can, I can look at an image of a, I don't know, like an AI image of like a perfect person. And I understand what I'm seeing is not real, but it's still making an impact on my nervous system who doesn't care about logic and rationality and what's real or not. It's just ingesting the overall feeling I get from it. And that's the thing that gets stored.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah. We often don't pay, I think, enough attention to like what is the actual feeling. It's all about the logic and what we're you know, thinking instead of how does that truly make me make me feel? Um okay, so good. So I would love for just a minute, if we could talk a little bit about since you have um three kids yourself, three daughters yourself. Is there anything that maybe you're doing intentionally around food or otherwise with the information that you have around food, bodies, and nervous system regulation to help support them to maybe still stay connected or that you're actually like practically teaching them or something to do to help with their nervous system? Because I think, you know, a lot of the listeners here are parents themselves. And sometimes, you know, and the reason they come to me often is because they're seeing behaviors with their kids around food that feel concerning and they're looking for support with that. And sometimes we also talk about well, is that just happening with food or does do they behave like that in other areas of life as well and what might be going on? So um just anything that maybe you're doing or that could be useful for parents to think through that lens of supporting their children as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, that's a great question. This was tricky for me because I have three girls and I was like, oh, I really need to, like, I really need to do this right. And some of it, to be honest, it's interesting. Like, I was like, they're they're born okay, you know, like they don't have any of this messaging and the dysregulation typically. I mean, like yet when they're when they're young. And so some of it was not touching it. So I I was more like so much of it was hands-off. It was like, let them be with their food and do their and and their body image and stuff like that, like without me getting my messaging in, because that's kind of what screws us up sometimes in the first place. It's like we we know when we're kids, we have much more intuition. And then we have the messages come in and the judgments come in, and that's where we're learning things, right? And that, and then that's having this ripple effect. But some of it is like, where do I not want to intervene? Where do I want to actually just let my kids they know better than me sometimes, you know, like let that happen. But I also like I didn't um I wasn't recovered yet when my oldest was, I think she was eight when I rec when I recovered eight or nine or something like that. So she already had some of my messaging by the time that um she was like old enough to remember it. And she had heard me say things like, no sugar, like we had a no sugar household for a long time. And that she remembers that. So I had to kind of do some damage control afterwards. And one of the things that I did is that I told her, like, I to an appropriate age level, I was like, because she would call me out and she'd be like, Why can we have sugar now and we didn't use it? She's like, Do you remember those books we used to have? You know, like the magazines. I mean, and I would say, like, yeah, you know what? I used to, I used to think that sugar was bad. And I used to, I used to really believe that um that we shouldn't have those things. And I was like, and then I changed my mind. I started to learn more about it. And now, you know, and I I kind of just tell her, like, that I've changed my mind or that I think differently, or that I didn't have all the information before. And so she knows like why that changed. And I'm not afraid to like admit the places where my inconsistencies have been because they have been. Um and at the same time, like managing sugar with kids is like a hot question, and like, how do we do that? And how that, how we can get like our own stuff involved there. Like, well, I don't want. And I think that what I try to do is not say too much and like not over, I don't want to talk about sugar is bad or or things like that. As much as I also don't want to talk about like sugar's like everyone's demonizing sugar. Like, I don't, it's so much attention. Like, there's so even negative or positive attention on it is a is like bringing attention to it. So if we have, if they have Halloween candy or something like that, like they eat it, and like sometimes I'll notice I'm eating a lot of it. And I'm like, okay, guys, it's dinner time. We're gonna put the candy away now. That's it. I'm not gonna give like a speech about it. I'm not gonna be like, and by the way, it's okay if you have sugar, but blah blah blah. Like, you know, like I just I'm trying to like be more cool about it so that they're hearing neutral, they're hearing that sugar's okay. They're also hearing that like it's time for dinner now and that we're putting the sugar away now. But it's also not like this thing that's fraught with either anti-diet mindset or diet culture mindset. You know, it's it's just the way I would talk about putting their toys away. It's because it's time for dinner. You know what I mean? Um, so that's hard. I mean, this is a that's a hard, that's easier said than done, all of that. But it's it's kind of the lens that I work through. And and I'm not always getting right either. Like there's times where my kids come in with like body image messages. And that's inevitable when they're getting to high school and middle school. And sometimes I get a little on my soapbox about it, you know, and I'm like, well, buddies, blah, blah, blah. You know, and I, and I kind of kind of catch myself being a little non-neutral. Um, and again, I just do the best, I just course correct as much as I can and be like, okay, I'll notice if I'm doing that. And I'll I'll be like, okay, is this, is this helping them learn? Or is am I now sort of transferring an energy onto it? And so I try to keep a balance of like dropping enough information that they can use and maybe think about without too, without going too overboard with it. So that now they're picking up on the fact that I really care about this thing because then it's gonna become, who knows? Like how they'll use that.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Totally. It's so good. I often tell parents too, I'm like, it's okay, right? Like what I teach is it's okay to have boundaries with food. And in fact, our kids need some guidance, some support, some boundaries around it. That's totally age appropriate, right? It's not just like eat whatever you want whenever you want. And we don't, we don't care about food. We don't care about nutrition, we don't care about your body, like right, we don't care about anything. You know, I'm like, we're not doing, we're not doing that, but we also want to hold the boundary. And I have to say, like, it's like going to the park or something. Like, the park is a fine place to go, but you don't have to go to the park every time your kid asks you to go to the park, right? Or you can say it's time to leave the park because it's time to leave the park. But we can all probably agree the park is usually a lovely place to be. So like it's it's not this thing that we have to like demonize or talk poorly about or like make be a big thing. It just might be that it's we're not going to the park today or it's it's time to leave the park, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

I think that boundaries that's a really important part of this. Like, um sometimes I think with this work, there's this feeling of like, well, you have to let your kids like be at the park all day and like go on all the all the rides, even if they're not safe, you know, like in order to be a good parent. And it's like, no, they there are boundaries. And and my kids, even even when my kids will be like, well, why can't I have, you know, like all my hung Halloween candy in one sitting? Not that they want to, but like, you know, it's there can you can talk about it. You can talk about like nutrition, you know, it doesn't it doesn't have to be this taboo topic that we're afraid to talk about because we're we don't want to impose diet culture on them, you know. Like, I think that's part of it is like it's okay to be to have like balance in the conversation. We don't need to be on an extreme. Um, and that's maybe the point. I think maybe that's not as much out there. It's like it feels like if you talk about nutrition at all that you're not anti-antidiet enough or you're like too diet cultury, but it's like that's just nutrition. If as long as it stays in like a basic place, you know, then that's that's fair, you know. And I think that we're afraid of that sometimes. And maybe that's why we're getting afraid, like we're like nervous about how we're how we're saying something or we're projecting our own thoughts. Like, it can be a lot easier than that.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's such a good point because so many parents will tell me, like, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. They don't want to say the wrong thing. Yeah. Or like, even, you know, like the way we often talk about food noise for ourselves and like trying to decide what we can eat or what we can't eat, or having guilt, or if it's gonna make me feel better, blah, blah, blah. They feel like that sometimes with what they're gonna say to their kid too. So they're like, I'm doing all of these mental gymnastics for how to like, should I tell my kid that they can have the cookie or that they can't? Like, I don't know, right? It just feels like all of this, this stuff there. And so I just trying to bring it back to what we were talking about too. Like, I'm just hearing it also through this nervous system angle of like, if if I don't feel even safe or comfortable maybe with nutrition myself, with how I'm feeding my body, with how I'm parenting my own food. Like, if I don't feel then I am going to be in this place of not knowing how to react or just reacting, right? They're like, oh, I don't, I didn't want to say that at the table. Or I keep telling myself, like, don't react or don't make them take a bite of their vegetables. But then all of a sudden it comes out of my mouth, like, yeah, can't just let them sit here and not eat anything until you know. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Like 100%. That's the connection. Like it's really in, it's not about the decision we're thinking we have to make or not make, or what we should do or not do. It's like what is happening inside of our body right now that is lending itself to like the dysregulation anyway. You know, like how, again, going back to like sit back in your chair. If you're at the dinner table and you're having this conversation in your head or you're noticing that you're like, you know, wanting to say this thing or not sure, like to sit back a little bit, like even just posture. It can can be like we can be leaning in, right? And like zoned in, like dropping shoulders an eighth of an inch and taking a breath, right? Just giving yourself that five seconds to come back. Like what you might know, you might answer your own question then, right? Like if you're like, I don't know what to do. It's like, let's let's regulate a little in the in the system. What do we know? What do we know? Right. And then it's like that's where the work you're doing with them, it's like, oh, right. This is what Nicole might say. You know, like, right, I do know the answers to these questions, but I just can't find it when I'm dysregulated. So it's like when we're when we're getting worked up, it's like we're it think about it less as it's a food issue. It's like more like that's a regulation issue. So we have to kind of come back down so that we can find the parts of our brain that can answer this, you know, or that can say to our kids, like, I don't, I don't know, I'm not sure. Or not afraid to make a mistake, you know, because I think we get in that when we're dysregulated, we're afraid to make a mistake. And then we can't learn from that. So it's okay to make mistakes too. It's okay to make a mistake and then come back to a coaching session with you and be like, this happened. How might I deal with that next time? But we can't find it if we're not regulated first. So it's like picking up on our own system is pro is is like name of the game number one. Then the content, then the okay, what have I learned? You know, that's secondary.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Yes. So helpful. Um, do you have any other tools like for somebody who is feeling really activated maybe by what their child eats, by their child's body size at the dinner table? I heard you say, like, right, if you're like, you know, sitting forward, maybe it's moving back a little bit, dropping your shoulders, taking a breath. Are there any other like basic tools that you would say um could maybe even just take you like a decibel down from where you're at? And yeah, you know, one or two more things that a parent might be able to do in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

So I talk about tools and like either um move it, move or soothe. So we're either in like fight or flight or freeze, right? And and you can be mixed. You can have kind of both going on. So you can try one or another and see what resonates more for you in a moment. Sometimes that like relaxing them, like like dropping shoulders. I always call it drop and drop your shoulders an eighth of an inch, relax your jaw, even like soften your tongue inside of your mouth, like like even when it's like it's like, oh yeah, like the whole body kind of goes down. That can those small things and breath and stuff can cue like a settling. But sometimes our activation is really high. And that means that the body's going into like more fight or flight. And that that's a sit a place where this the body is actually expecting to either run away physically, like it's gathering adrenaline to run or to fight something physically. And remembering our nervous systems are really primitive. So it's not, it's not understanding that the stress you're experiencing is about a conversation at the dinner table or your daughter's body image. It's like, do we have to get, do we have to run down the road or do we have to like fight the cave bear? You know, like so we have to actually move it through the system because that's what's happening. So um in that case, sometimes the settling ones, the breath, aren't gonna work because it's almost like the body's like, we we gotta dis discharge this energy first. So like I I sometimes will leave the room to do that or like I will pace. So I will go to the kitchen um sink and do the dishes. And I do that like kind of like quick. It's like an act with your hands and it's fast and it's like methodical and it's it's doing, doing, doing. Sometimes doing is the cue back to your nervous system that you're discharging energy. So it's not like I'm just a clean freak, right? It's just kind of like I need, I need to act right now so that I don't act through my, you know, like and say something to my children that I don't want to say. Like, or I need to pace around, or sometimes I need to squeeze my fists five, like 10 times like this, um, like, or hold the squeeze under the table a little bit and then relax all those muscles. We have to move it before we can soothe it sometimes. So if you're really activated and your energy is pulsing, that's where you might, you might need to go physical, like more physical, and then and then discharge that energy because your system's literally looking for that. And and before, again, you can get to that settling, you we might have to go move it out.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

That is so helpful. And I think it's a great place to wrap up, actually, with some like real tangible um tips for parents that I think are so useful at the table. And I think we can all use that in life. I mean, I've definitely been known to tell my kids like, my nervous system can't handle it anymore. You have to stop now. Like me too. You argue with the car again. I'm like, yeah, losing it.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

But even that, like the vocalizing is part of the discharge too.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Oh gosh, maybe I should try like squeezing some more or something. Yeah, I don't know. Or sing, sing it out. Yeah. Yes, yes. Oh gosh, so good. But no, I think it's so helpful regarding food, regarding parenting in general. There's so much that we could talk about. Um, I'd love to have you back on to dive more into body image and you know, other things that come up for all of us living in this culture. Yeah, you know, food and body. So thank you so much for being here today. And can you please tell people where they can find you if they're wanting to learn more about your work or work with you or just get more tips and tools? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

So I have a podcast called Full But Not Finished. Um, and I am also on YouTube as I am Stephanie Michelle, on Instagram as I am Stephanie Michelle, and my website is I am StephanieMichelle.com. So all of my courses and coaching is housed there.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Fantastic. Well, we will link all of that in the show notes. Send people your way. Um, you have a fantastic Instagram, I know, and so excited for your podcast as well. So um thank you for sharing all these resources and thank you for being here today. It was so great to chat with you. Same. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Intentional Table Podcast. If you get a second, please leave a rating, leave a review. That's one of the best ways to spread this message to more parents who also want their kids to have a healthy relationship with food. And let's remind ourselves, as we always do, that nourishing a healthy relationship with food is just as important, if not more, than the food itself. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.