Podcast 8: Leadership Beyond the Role

What really defines great leadership is it experience, decision-making… or something more personal?

In the latest episode of A Better Way: The Workforce Solutions Podcast, host Darren Topping sits down with Patricia Laurde (Clarivate) to explore the mindset, perspective, and personal traits that shape effective leaders today.

This conversation goes beyond titles and responsibilities - diving into how leaders think, make decisions under pressure, and stay grounded in fast-paced, ever-changing environments.

- Why perspective is critical to better decision-making
- The traits that separate good leaders from great ones
- How to balance confidence, resilience, and self-awareness
- Why leadership is as much personal as it is professional

If you’re navigating change, leading teams, or reflecting on your own leadership journey - this episode offers valuable insight

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Better Way podcast brought to you by Guidand Global. I'm Darren Topping, Director of Enterprise Solutions, Insights and Partnerships, and my goal is to bring together the best experts from across HR, TA, people-related functions, and technology to give you an insight into what the best organisations do in this space. Patricia Lord is an uh employee relations expert. Correct me if I get any of these wrong, legal expert, coach, speaker, author. And today, Patricia, thank you so much for joining us. I just really wanted to dig into your story and get your perspective on so many things facing us in the world of work today. I'm sure you'll do a better intro than I will. So would you mind introducing yourself for our audience?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, I think you've said it all actually. So I'm Pat Lord. Um, I've uh had a uh nearly 30-plus year career in various organizations in law and employee relations. Um, and I have some wonderful passion projects that I've been able to turn into some wonderful projects in my life. So yeah. How do you find the time? Do you know what? Uh it sounds wonderful, but um, it took me 10 years to write my book. But when you say to somebody I've written a book, it sounds really, really impressive. But it took me a while to get there. So uh yeah, uh, I take my time. I take my time.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Before that, then you know, we reel off the titles, the accomplishments, and where you are today. But what led you to that path? What what early experiences, influences, what led you to where you are today? What did it look like before all this?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

My parents, really. Um, I'm the youngest of seven. And my dad, I think it's a funny story. So I must have been my eight or nine, and my dad said to me, 'What do you want to do when you grab them?' I said, I want to be a bodybuilder. And my dad looked at me absolutely disgusted, you know, uh first-generation Jamaican parent. And he was just like, you need to get more ambition, laurel medicine. So I don't like blood, so here I am. That's it. Nothing, nothing else. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And in terms of your your role and what you do, not just today, but throughout your career, you've worked um throughout the UK, you've worked internationally. How does your background um and your personal roots in that family that you just spoke about influence how you you work today and how you've operated throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I think it's I think it's the foundation, if I'm honest, like my family background. Um, I learn how to work really hard from my parents, you know. Um my parents worked maybe, you know, on a slow, it was six days a week, but usually seven days a week. So I got my work ethic from them. And I think I've just gotten my vision from them as well. So when I was coming up, uh I wanted to uh become a barrister, but there weren't anybody in my community that was that. And I firmly believe that you can't be what you can't see. And uh and the road was really hard.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

So I had to pivot to that just feel like an unattainable goal at the time almost because of that.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I think financially it was, yeah. Um, you know, because back then to become a pupil, you were self-funded. Working class kids can do that.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

So it it just made the route a lot more narrower than um than many people could could afford, to be fair. And so my parents, both working class, both worked in factories, did really well to put me through uni, um, but they wouldn't have been able to sustain me living in London and not working for a year, yeah, all things that went with it. So I suppose your choices are your circumstances can sometimes dictate your choices. And um and here I am.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Do you think when you reflect on all of that, that it is made you a better leader for that kind of diversity of background than an upright? For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

I lead people who work uh in Europe, the USA, um, at one point Asia Pack. And I think sometimes we have a view that, you know, if a Brit's not in Spain or if a Brit's not in Vietnam, they're not doing their role well.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

And and I think um coming from you know my Jamaican parentage, um there is a sense of individuals judging you based on what you look like or you know, your accent, for example. And I suppose when I'm working with my internationals, I'm not listening to their accent, I'm listening to the content of what they're telling me. So I lead by I lead by not just listening, but understanding that they're you know uh English is their second language, uh culturally they have different nuances, and you break down barriers quicker when you're coming into a role with an appreciation that you know the UK is is doesn't have all of the detail on you know laws in Spain or laws in Germany.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

You've almost cut that inbuilt appreciation, even you don't have to learn it. Absolutely. And fast forwarding to kind of today then, Pat, how does your life outside of work influence your life in in work and how you show up as a leader today? And all the other stuff that you do?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, I think I think my life outside of work complements what I do. Um I write books, right? So I think one of the things that I love doing is just going to new places and sitting down and listening and absorbing and just seeing what happens, and then you've got the employee relations in you just wanting to hear the dirt, just generally. So I think that um they coexist. I think my life outside of work is less empathetic, actually. Yeah. Um whereas in the role, yeah, whereas in the role that I do, you know, I mean HR, there's an element of empathy first, you've got to listen to people, people have to trust you. Uh whereas I can have snappier judgments outside of work. Uh, if I had those judgments in work, I could cost the organization lots of money. Um, but I think the one thing that translates is patience.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Um, and and that translates in my leadership to my leadership style. Um, and I think another element that translates for me is being able to make mistakes, you know. So I make loads of mistakes in my personal life, and I think it's wonderful. I always tell my children that you're gonna fail your way to success because we're now living in an environment where failure is is seen as uh uh failure is it's not negative, is it? No. Well, I think it can be. I think, well, this is my view, right? So I'm 167, I've got kids. They look at the um uh Instagram and all of that good stuff, and they're seeing the finished article, they're not seeing the pain that people have to go through to become successful, they're not seeing the sacrifice. And when people talk about failure, I think that the kids nowadays, um, you know, they look at them and think, God, they're such losers, you know, although they might already say something else, and half the time they speak to me, I don't understand what they're saying anyway, because I've got this new language. But I don't feel as if uh we are able to make the same mistakes um as young people in particular. Uh cancel culture is absolutely massive. Yeah, and I always say to my children, my goodness, if there was a camera calling me at university, I'd never work, you know. So um I think we're I think we're a lot harsher to one another.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

And I think people have opinions, but uh people grow. And we don't take that into uh consideration, and you know, you get all these sound bites where people have said something really ugly 20 years ago, but they've grown into the person. You evolve, yeah. You grow into the person that you are today, but nobody's interested in that. So um, yeah, I I I'm a lot, I'm I'm very patient, and I think that translates.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

I and I would never use the word, even though I've not known you for a very long time, Pat. I would never use the word patience with you. Not because I don't think you are patient, but because you're very but because you're very driven and you do and cover uh lots of um different facets of your life. Where does that drive come from?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

I think it's again, it's about having a vision. I've always been a thespian um at heart, and I always wanted to write a book, and it took me forever to write that book, and it wasn't until something dramatic happened um that I realised that my purpose was just was bigger than my role. And I think we're roughly the same age. So you and I grew up in a time where individuals were defined by what they do, and so I was defined by what I did for such a long time. I think the drive also comes from being a success. So, you know, having my parents, and I think you when you speak to a lot of children who are first gen from immigrants, there is that you will be a success. I gave up everything to come here to start this life in order for you to have a better future.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

And when you have a bit of it, that I think there's a bit of fear, isn't it? You don't want to lose it, so you keep pushing.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Absolutely, there is that fear, you know. And um, I was the first in my family um to go to university, and not just my parents, but you know, my aunts and uncles, you know, it was a big deal. Um, so my success became their success. And the fact that I did it, then others were like, you know what, I can definitely go to you.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, you became the role model.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Right, exactly. And so I suppose the drive is always about putting yourself forward and showing others that it can be done. Yeah, and I alluded to that earlier, you can't be what you can't see. And in my community, people are like, oh, you know, can I talk to you? I'm on a career in law, I want to go and take draw, I want to do this, I want to write a book. And I think that's that's where the drive comes from.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, yeah. You're um you're an advocate for uh and a spokesperson for uh inclusive workplaces, and obviously it's a big part of your your day job. What um personal experiences have you had that have helped drive that within you for it to become a key part of what you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Gosh, I think the personal experiences that I've had, you most probably wouldn't be able to air to be fair. I mean, I it's it's this is very nostalgic being here. Be around this part of town, yeah. Because I I my first proper job was um, I think about five or six doors down. So this was my stomping ground for three years, and I had the best time there, but suffered sexism, sexual harassment, sexual assault, you know, racial harassment. And you know, I think as a young person, we kind of get on with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Especially in the 90s. Um I went to an event a few quite a few months ago actually, and we I met some HR directors um at a networking event, and we were all around the same age, and and we we we were just reflecting um on what our experiences were like as we were coming up and how people would have lost their jobs, or you know, you could have sued your company for a huge amount of money for the things that we were going, uh, that we went through as young women. So um there are lots of experiences that have shaped me, but I I tend to lean into how you deal with them. So as I was younger, I used to get angry and you know, it must be swear at people and call them names and you know, walk out the room. And as I've grown and evolved, I've turned those things into a teachable moment.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

And you know, that's something that I'm quite proud about. Well, as far as I can. That's right, because some people you just can't teach.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah, yeah. Some people, yeah. Yeah, we know that. Um not just focusing on inclusivity, then. When you think about um your uh career and and your personal life, are there are there any key kind of moments that come to mind for you that have changed your philosophy on how you work and all the different um bits of work that you've done? Are there any kind of key moments in the matter that have come to mind that have really changed your thinking or maybe even more driven to go towards a target or a goal?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

I think the most pivotal moment for me had to be the penultimate day before my mother died. And uh my mother had cancer, she was really poorly, and she got to the point that she wasn't talking, and she reminded me of a conversation that we had when I was about 13. And in that conversation, I told her that I wanted to be a writer like Maya Angelique, and she said, You know, are you proud of what you've done? And I was like, Yeah, and then just had this whole insecurity of you're not proud of me.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

And I was like, yeah, why are you asking me? Yeah, exactly. I was like, What?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

And she she just said, Well, you know, and this goes into a deeper story, but you know, a point that you thought you were dying, you told me that you wanted to become a writer like Myra Angelou, and she goes, I've not read a book yet, and that was the dagger to the heart moment for me. And I had to go away and think about, well, why is that? You know, why hadn't I done that? And I think the early part of my career I spent so much time, I think, being driven to make everybody else proud, but not actually leaning into my purpose, what makes me happy. Um, and so after that, it took me 10 years to write the book. Um, I started to work on the book and the ideas and and to bring that to life. So that was the moment.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That was, yeah, that moment stands above all else. Absolutely. And um, do you think, and I think this is epidemic's a strong word, isn't it? But I think I think purpose is missing in so many people because especially from people from from a different background, whether um that's from economically or socially from different countries, I think it could be so easy to go next rung on the ladder, the next promotion, the next. I don't think enough people, I don't know if you agree enough, people stop to think, what do I want to do? What did I set out to do? What what is my kind of what is my my heart saying I should be doing? Would you agree with that, do you think? Do you think we kind of all lose sight of that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 15:47

I think everybody loses sights lose sight of that. And and and I think it's harder as we get older, right? So I know that when I was younger, I could be purposeful and sit and write and be that thespian and you know, lounge, you know, by river banks, reading proofs. It was wonderful. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The moment that you have children, then you know, your your your purpose is very different because everything you do is about your children. And I do think, and I don't think it's just limited to people that come here, like you know, the immigrant story. I don't I don't believe that for a second. Because through my work, I I've met so many people who have had a clear vision when they were younger and they got derailed, right? Either because they met someone, so many women I know has met the one not being the one and have ended up doing things that the one wanted them to do, and they're not the one. Or um uh, you know, life circumstances change, having children younger for some individuals. So I think if I asked 10 people in the room, what's your purpose, maybe two would be able to tell me.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

And I don't think it's about knowing your purpose, it's about putting yourself on a journey to find it.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

And I think the moment that you become very intentional about what you want to do, who you are, what what you feel that your legacy should be, it just opens up your world and it opens up for me, it opens up your spirit, it just makes you happy, it brings joy to to everything that you do. And I think that's that's important. Tough question to ask, isn't it? It is. Um, because it could be scary to find out what what that leads to. But I always say to, especially people that I'm coaching that are looking for themselves, there are millions of people across this planet in the graveyard that had that idea that they never got to. And so if you put yourself in the last 10 minutes of your life and you ask yourself the question, Did I do everything that I wanted to do? And the answer is yes, great, happy days. But if it's no, then there's a part of you that you've not actually relinquished and lived. And so I think it's important that people ask themselves that question now.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, yeah. You never know what's gonna happen. Tomorrow is never promised. Yeah, 100%. Um I was gonna ask you around um what great leadership means to you. And I will ask that, but if you prefer, I I'll let you choose. You can either ask you can either answer what great leadership means to you or what great coaching means to you.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

I'll go to the leadership one because I think coaching will be here all day. I think it's really important that organisations uh find people who are people people to become leaders. I think that's key. There is always somebody in a room who has an experience of a toxic leader or a difficult leader, or there will be that one person that they could recall from, and it could be, you know, from 40 years ago, 60 years ago that made them feel a particular way in the role. And it's not to say that they're a bad person, it's to say that they just didn't have the skills to be a leader. So I think great leadership for me is having a leader who is a people person, who is empathetic, has integrity, and is living the values. Um, I have been in countless rooms over my career where you've got leaders saying, I think this person's really rubbish, or you know, they're not enthusiastic. And I always ask, How do you show up for work? Are you enthusiastic about this company? You know, you're you're asking someone to project something that they can't see, and you are the leader. Yeah, you are directing them. So, how are you showing up? So if you don't have people that are willing to show up for the organization and lift the values and believe in empathetic leadership and is willing to treat individuals with respect, you're not gonna get a great leader.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I guess in your role then is similar to many others out there. Do you some can that be quite draining then sometimes? Can you often see the worst side?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, I I would never say my role is draining.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

No.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Um, because anybody that does employee relations has to have the stomach for it.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I've seen people come and go, like, oh my god, this is not for me. I need to get a talent or it's fun. Um but I I I think I think it's a real honour doing my role. I get to see people at the worst, and sometimes you can get them back, you can coach them. Sometimes you can get them to hold the mirror up, and there's that lovely piece of self-reflection. Sometimes they just need to leave because it's not the right organization. And sometimes we meet people at their absolute lowest, right? So when they've gone through something traumatic, or um we're dealing with families because people have passed away. So I take my role really seriously based on that, because it doesn't matter what you're going through in life, you need to be confronted with an individual that is going to respect you throughout that process, whatever that looks like. And I think that's really important, and that's what I say to my team. Always.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah. Believe it or not, um, I do a lot of research for these episodes. I know it doesn't look like it. I was having to troll through um some of your LinkedIn posting. And uh no, don't don't worry, this isn't a gotcha moment. But I was um a lot of your posts focused on kind of there was a theme sometimes of like rest recovery. And that like I mentioned about the word patience, I think. About all the things that you do, and then rest and recovery almost seems like the opposite side of all the stuff that you do. How does that um how is your own relationship with rest, recovery, how has that relationship evolved and what does it look like today?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I that's a really good question. So when I was younger, I work, work, work, work, work because you've got the energy, you want to prove that you're you're good at the job and all the rest of it. And I think as you've got as I've gotten older, I've recognised that in order to bring my best self to work, I need to bring my best self to work. And that is going to the gym, and that is getting to bed early, and that is not doing it too many sherbits during the week, and all of the things that we're told to do. And the reason why I labour on rest and recovery is you don't know this. My sister passed away at 44. She went to bed, had a cerebral brain hemorrhage, and she never woke up. She left three children, and they are my first family. So me and my husband raised um uh my nieces and nephews before we had our own children. And the one thing that I can tell you that she didn't do was rest.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And it changes your uh perspective on life when something so tragic happens so close to home. But it also provides you with a level of perspective that it's gonna be there tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I say that to my team. This is gonna be here tomorrow, unless you're dealing with I call it a DEF CON 5, and I've only had about three in my life at work, it will still be here. We do what we can. And I feel that when I'm working with individuals who were burnt out in particular, the one thing that they don't do is manage expectations. Yeah. So if you're overwhelmed, if you've got loads of work in, as humans, because we want to show everybody, oh my god, we're brilliant, we can do everything. You do everything and then you burn out. It would have been far safer for that individual to have said to their line manager, I've got these three priorities, this is my most important one, I'll get to you a week later. And it's having that courage as a as an employee, as a colleague, to have those conversations in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Because your line manager will understand.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

You show up and do better work when you're when you're rested. When you have that time to turn your brain off. I've had a difficult relationship with it for sure. And what I've realized is I'm way better for shutting down that laptop and having an evening is when you're it's when you're not.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

And you've got children. And I'm I'm guilty of it. Sometimes my kids are coming talk to me, and I'm like, hang on a minute. Yeah, one minute, one minute. Yeah, and so one of the things that I've changed in the last seven to eight months is yes, yeah, you know, or just being present. We are more present for work than we are for our own families, and that is not a dynamic absolutely that we want to encourage. You've got to be present for everything, and I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

On the flip side of rest, then, what element of your work in life energizes you the most?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I think it it all I love what I do. If I didn't love what I do, I wouldn't do it. So I love working with teams, building teams, and you know, dare I say, I love naughty people because you some of the days you just can't make it up. So, you know, call that, you know, call the memoir for the memoir. But um, but yeah, no, I I I it all energizes me.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

And I think it's because I'm working with people and I'm passionate about people, and they never surprise me now.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

And um, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're in the people business, aren't we? We are. They never they never surprise you. Yeah, I I'm thinking about all the teams you've led in legal employee relations, all the different teams that you've led. Has there been a fundamental singular kind of belief or principle as you've held throughout all of those, and now you think that actually is, you know, a great principle for all kind of team leadership and and management.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

It's really simplistic when you when you when you ask me that question.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I know in reality it will know any, you know, put the feedback on.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

I think, no, not that you're really simplistic with the question, but it's really simplistic for me. For me. Um so my mantra is if you treat people like adults, yeah, they behave like adults. And throughout all of the teams that I've led, I have met people where they are, and I think some leaders feel that in order to be successful, they need to dominate or they need to dictate. And I think that's a relationship that you have with children. Um, if you meet people where they are, if you respect the fact that they've got the knowledge, and if they haven't, you talk about the gap, the gaps, and if you can't fill those gaps, you have a gentle conversation about, you know, is this right for them or where you need to be. I think the moment you start treating people as if they are adults and uh subject matter experts, it changes the dynamic. Yeah, it changes the dynamic on how people show up for you and how they want to be a part of your team but also the wider organization. Um, and so yeah, that's that's the one fundamental that I take with me. Yeah, I love that. I've not heard that before.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

And can you believe we're on our last question already? No, we're not. Last question. No. Um we've only known I'm not that good. Um, for those who have only heard a little bit of your story today for the first time, and we've we could only cover a little bit in the time we've got together. What key thing would you want people to you watch this conversation take away with them?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

I think the key thing for me is we're all onions, and we've got to take the time to strip each layer bit by bit, to review it, to engage and collaborate, to understand who you're working with, who you're collaborating with, who's in the room. And I think that's really important. So I think the one thing that I would like people to take away from this conversation is to take the time, be present, collaborate, and learn more about who you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, that's but that is the best bit. When you get to really know people, you get I do find you get great work done. Absolutely. We're gonna cause car, you're gonna cause carnage after this because everyone's gonna be asking what's my purpose in life. It's gonna be resignations everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Thank you. You'll be sending me emails.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Thank you so much, Pat. Where can people um connect with you if they want to after this?

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Uh LinkedIn, LinkedIn's always good, or uh Instagram, orthopedia. Uh yeah, clean picks only, because you're surprised what people think. My goodness. Yes, you'll be surprised. But um, yeah. So yeah, LinkedIn and uh Insta.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Enjoyed it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

That was lovely.