Judges in the Community: Law, Social Justice, and Civic Responsibility

From East Baltimore to the federal bench, Judge Andre Davis built a career rooted in one idea: the law is a tool for public service.

In this episode of Keepers of the Republic, Brooke sits down with the former Fourth Circuit judge to talk about civil rights, community impact, and what it really means to uphold the rule of law. They cover everything from his unexpected path to the bench, to leaving a lifetime appointment to work on police reform, to why he’s now speaking out alongside other judges to defend democratic norms.

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Welcome back to Keepers of our Republic, a new weekly podcast from Keep Our Republic that takes listeners inside the institutions at the heart of American democracy. 

Every week, Keepers of Our Republic features thoughtful conversations with election administrators and retired federal judges. We explore how elections are really run, discuss why an independent judiciary is essential to a strong republic, and separate fact from fiction in a fast-changing world. 

Learn more about Keep Our Republic, a nonpartisan nonprofit, at our website, https://keepourrepublic.org 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Keep Our Republic is a nonpartisan nonprofit organization. Since the spring of 2020, we've been doing our part to help keep our republic. We do it through hyper-localized civic education. We talk with Americans through town halls, legal seminars, media briefings, and other events. We have a lot of Americans have a lot of questions right now about how our democracy really works. Questions like, what actually happens behind the scenes on election night? And just what is the power of the federal court? That's why we're talking directly to election officials and judges from across the country. Together, we can help answer some of those questions. Welcome back, everyone, to Keepers of Our Republic. My name is Brooke, and this is, of course, our weekly podcast where we're talking with election officials and judges about how we could support our democratic institutions in these fast-changing times. Today I get to speak with Judge Andre Davis, who is a former federal judge of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, as well as a number of very interesting and important positions that he's held, primarily in the state of Maryland and of course the city of Baltimore in particular. I can really think of no guests that we've had that better exemplifies some of the unique and important ways that the legal profession can really be of service to our communities, really the power that attorneys have to be part of change in our neighborhoods and within our communities. And I'm excited to jump into that with you today, Judge. So on that note, welcome and thank you for joining us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

I'm delighted to be with you, Bo.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Judge, you have held so many interesting positions in your in your legal career, and I want to definitely touch on some of them. But first, let's take it all the way back to the beginning. What interested you in joining the legal profession?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Well, as a child, I grew up in a working class East Baltimore neighborhood. I I didn't actually have any exposure growing up to lawyers and similar professionals, but I did love Perry Mason. I will say that. But my my wow moment uh in insofar as my career in law came as a sophomore in college when a law professor, I went to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, and a law professor from the Penn Law School offered uh a constitutional law class to undergraduates. And I was lucky enough to take that course. And it really was an eye-opener for me to understand for the first time the role that lawyers played in constitutional litigation, civil rights, human rights, and social justice issues. And from that moment on, I knew I wanted to be uh the best civil rights trial lawyer I could be.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

You know, we all have these dreams of whether it's Perry Mason or whether it's watching Atticus Finch. Um, or for some of us, you know, who were born a little later, it was legally blonde. It was, we have these like larger-than-life, although for me, I was definitely raised on to kill a mockingbird. So for me, it was Atticus, but it, you know, we have these larger-than-life ideas of what lawyers can be. We go to law school, and sometimes it's a little heartbreaking to think about that these ideals we have of public service often come up against the reality of the legal profession, of, of having to pay a mortgage or pay rent and some of that. But you managed to create such a career out of public service in so many, so many different ways. Obviously, we we don't even have time to touch on some of the things you did at at Department of Justice and as an AUSA, but what talked about talk to me about what that transition was like then going from an attorney before the bar to thinking about taking that next step and stepping up on the bench.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah, I I I never ever wavered from my commitment to public service. Uh, of course, I went to law school back before the explosion in tuition. Um, so I actually, you know, came along early enough to avoid that kind of burden uh that so many students more recently have encountered. But I never lost sight of my goal. Um, you mentioned that I clerked for two outstanding federal judges after law school that really just incredibly enhanced my skills, deepened my commitment to be the best lawyer I could be, but did not at that time generate in me any desire to be a judge. I absolutely wanted to be the best lawyer I could be. Um, I left the the uh Department of Justice uh after a brief time for reasons we don't have to discuss. I went on to become an assistant U.S. attorney here in Baltimore, where I handled both criminal cases and civil cases. But then after that, and after a short period in private practice, which was really just my confirmation that I didn't want to be in private practice, it literally was a year. Uh, I actually became a law teacher. And I was a law professor for three years at the University of Maryland School of Law, my alma mater, uh, teaching various courses, including uh civil procedure and criminal procedure, appellate advocacy. And it was during that period of teaching law that somehow I woke up one day and thought maybe I could be a good judge. And it and it really did happen that way. I mean, I literally had no real aspiration, but as I read more and more cases and observed um the evolution of the law, this was at a time when the law was growing like topsy and in many different ways. Uh and as it turned out, uh the governor uh appointed me to the two courts you mentioned, the lower state court with no jury trials. Um for three years I served there. And then for three years in the court of general jurisdiction, and I found that I just really loved it. I I I had always aspired to a career in public service. And so becoming a judge on the state bench was really the fulfillment of really a short-lived but intense dream to serve the people of my city and of my state in a way that that I thought I was I was well suited for. And it turned out I was well suited for it.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

That's incredible. Did you have a uh a favorite class that you enjoyed teaching when you were a professor?

SPEAKER_02 6:41

I I did. I I because I had the experience in the U.S. attorney's office, I really wanted to be a trial lawyer. So naturally enough, I suppose I ended up teaching civil procedure and criminal procedure, which are sort of the nuts and bolts of a trial practice. And they have been my favorite courses in law school, by the way. So it was it was really a straight line through. Uh and and in fact, I'm glad you asked that because it was teaching civil procedure in particular that I learned when you teach civil procedure, you use a case book. And the case book in civil procedure is designed to teach students rules of civil procedure and and doctrine related to civil procedure. But the cases in the case book come from every area of the law. Um so you can have a property case, you can have a tort case, you have a contract case. The the point is the procedure, but the substance of law that I had to teach myself in order to teach the students the underlying procedural stuff is kind of what opened my eyes, really, in a very important way, to how rich the law is, how varied the law is. And and I guess I have sort of a brain that really thrives on many challenges within one day. So while some people, you know, uh prefer to focus on one thing and and really dig into it, I found that I was very comfortable jumping from contracts cases to property cases to trespass to criminal cases. And so it it it that's what sort of really kind of motivated me to look into becoming a judge.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I was gonna say it's it's perfectly suited to your to your personality then, because you get to become these sort of instant experts uh on so many that whatever happens to be assigned to you on the on the docket. And and what an interesting, interesting way to get to go through work every day instead of just niching down and just not only do you just do criminal, but you you just do fraud, and then you're gonna just do fraud for 20 years of your life, and you're gonna know you're gonna know fraud, but you're never gonna know any of these other subject matters. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

That's absolutely you have absolutely despired my personality. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

We have we have two my two of the same mind then, Judge. I'm right there with you. So you mentioned this earlier when you talked about being uh serving your community, but you know, we think of our judges, particularly when we get to the federal bench, of these lofty, almost inaccessible figures. I mean, not without reason, right? You're you were an incredibly accomplished attorney. And before you became a jurist, and you know, I was a, I was an attorney practicing in New York for several years myself, and I was just a, I was still lowly assistant district attorney. Certainly no one stood up when I entered a room. So there's not, you know, it is, you know, being a judge is different, but you are also a deeply involved member of your community when you sit on the bench, especially when you're at that trial level and you're really an arbiter for people's disputes within your community. How do you think joining the bench affected your relationship with your city, state community?

SPEAKER_02 10:07

It enriched it in ways that I can hardly describe to you. Going all the way back before I went to law school, uh, even before I went to college, um, I think it was part of the way I was raised in my family and in my community, in my church, and in my in my schools. The the sense of of giving back and and supporting community, being kind and supportive has always been a part of who I am. So all the way back, I became uh, for example, president of Big Brothers and Big Sisters of Central Maryland back before I went to law school. Um, so my life has always been one of involvement in community, uh supporting community. Um, I was a founder, for example, just to give another example, of something called the Baltimore Urban Debate League, which was designed to bring kids into debate and speech practices, kids who were not necessarily the best performers in their high schools, but who were the kids who we focused on the kids who were sitting in the back, who sometimes had uh attendance problems and that kind of things. So when I became a judge, it just gave me a wider platform, uh uh a platform to go to community associations and other organizations that want to hear from public officials about the community, about subject matter that people need to be educated about. And I always thrived in that in that milieu. And so I've, you know, I spent a lot of time after my court day was over in schools, in community organizations, in nonprofits, doing what I could to educate people about the law. You know, civic education is so important in our democracy. And so I've always been committed to that. And so it's really enhanced my connection to the community in so many different ways. I've served on any number of nonprofit boards where it was appropriate under judicial ethics. And I I've learned so much through that process.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah. And then I just briefly want to talk about some of your work after the bench because it's so, again, I come at this from a criminal law perspective. So it's so fascinating to me some of the work that you were able to do on the city solicitor side. Can you sort of briefly talk about that decision to leave the bench and go into more to return to a more active practice, legal practice?

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah, it it understood understandably shocked a lot of people. You know, I was here I was an article three judge, uh fourth circuit. I'd love being a judge.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

But most people would consider, I mean, beyond the pinnacle, there's only one or two jobs higher than that for the legal affection, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Like it's and I was enjoying it so much. I really was. I had by the time I retired in 2017, I had actually taken senior status, although I was still carrying a full load on the Fourth Circuit, a full uh docket. But at the same time, as a senior judge, I was able to help other courts around the country. So I actually sat with the Ninth Circuit, I sat in Seattle, I sat in San Francisco several times, I sat with the Sixth Circuit because I just loved being a judge. Um, but this opportunity came along really quite by surprise to serve as the city solicitor for Baltimore City, which is the head lawyer, head of the law department, about 105 lawyers and support personnel, the top civil lawyer for the city. And the motivation in that instance for me to leave the bench, which I never expected to do, was as you mentioned in the intro, the city had entered into, actually was then negotiating the final provisions of a consent decree to reform our police department. And I had observed over my 30 years as a judge, state and federal, the the deficits, I'll call them deficits, in the way the Baltimore City Police Department failed repeatedly to engage with community to comport their practices consistent with constitutional constraints. And I saw this consent decree uh that grew out of the death of Freddie Gray, one of the in in custody deaths back in 2015. I, as I put it at the time, I wanted to go hands-on in police reform, which is something I had been calling for uh for many years as a judge on the bench here in Baltimore. So I left the bench, became city solicitor, uh, ended up hiring the new police commissioner who had experience with consent decrees. And he and I, and the entire police department and the government here in Baltimore were able to bring about real reform of the police. I think I contributed in significant ways in my two and a half years as city solicitor to the improvement of the relationship between the community here in Baltimore, particularly the African-American community and its police department. We stood up a lot of reforms under the supervision of a federal judge who did a wonderful job supervising the consent decree. And so I was I was very pleased. I have no regrets. Um, I don't miss the bench, um, but in the meantime, I've been able to do a lot of other things. So currently, for example, I'm the chair of the uh juvenile justice reform commission here in Maryland, uh, which is a General Assembly created commission to take a soup to nuts look at our juvenile justice system here in Maryland and to and to make recommendations for reform. And that's very fulfilling work. I'm also serving on a couple of nonprofit boards. Some, again, I'm engaged with the community in a very significant way. And by the way, I'm also a member of the Article III Coalition, which is this wonderful coalition, this wonderful uh gathering of retired federal judges who have come together now for almost a year uh under the auspices of keeping our republic to uh to use our voices as a singular voice in support of the rule of law, the imperative of democratic norms, and to speak out against what we perceive to be threats to the rule of law, threats to judges, and threats to the judiciary more generally.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah. Judge, I think you there's so much in there, but you put it so beautifully. I mean, this is the legal profession. In my opinion, this is the legal profession, you know, at its best, right? Like when we can be collaborators in creating not just theoretical, but very real, very meaningful change on the ground. I'm thinking of the consent decree. I came, I went to law school and spent most of my young adult life living in Los Angeles, which is no stranger to consent decrees in in some of our various institutions there. Of course, anyone who has worked in the criminal justice system knows some of the profoundly, um, profoundly sad shortcomings that our juvenile system uh can suffer from. And so to take, to go from the theory and uh, you know, sometimes we live in a world of the theoretical when we're in law, but it doesn't have to be that way. We can be actors for real meaningful, powerful change in our communities. And again, that's that's so such an important part of what the Article III Coalition is about. What um it's a little different than some of the other things you described, right? Like we're talking about these sort of national issues, rule of law, and independent judiciary. What drew you to want to speak out about these issues in particular right now?

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I mean, like so many of my colleagues, uh retired federal judges, as I saw what was unfolding starting early last year, the including but not limited to the unfair, uh animus criticism, very personal criticism of federal judges who were doing their absolute best to administer uh just a deluge of cases of unprecedented scope and number in so many important areas that the criticism really, really disturbed me. The the the the the actual attacks on some judges disturbed me. The the the the statements being made by elected and appointed officials in our government at the highest levels that led people to uh become agitated towards individual judges, that led people to misunderstand the nature of the work of judges, all of that together just prompted me to look for ways that I could collaborate with others, including lawyers, uh, to bring a voice of reason and calm in the in the in the in the debates. Um, and so when I learned um from my good colleagues, uh Judge Sindrich, who I had known for many years, and Judge Michelle, who I'd known for many years, when they reached out to me to say, hey, we're we're gonna try to do something really significant here and raise our voices, judges appointed by both Democratic presidents and Republican presidents coming together to speak out with one voice. I I couldn't have been more delighted to become a part of that. I'm just so proud of the work we've done, the work we intend to do, the work we are doing day to day. And and really, I'm getting so much great feedback. Um, most recently, before I had I had surgery, I did a town hall up in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, with one of my colleagues on on the Article III coalition. Uh a judge, a very fine judge, he was appointed by a Republican. I was appointed by Democratic. And we had this wonderful town hall, very well attended, ordinary folk from the community asked great questions, and and to every person there left that session. We went on for about 90 minutes. Every person there who spoke to me afterwards expressed their deep appreciation for what we were doing, for the light we were bringing to these contentious issues, helping to educate the community. And that is such fulfilling work. I have always believed, Brooke, and and you alluded to this, it may sound quaint or outdated, but I really believe the legal profession is a noble calling. And I've always believed, long before I went to law school, that lawyers have a special obligation to their communities, to the profession, certainly, but to the broader community to do what we can to educate the public, to inform the public, to make ourselves available to the public so that they get their questions answered from experts, from people on the ground who know how the law is structured and how it's supposed to work for the betterment of community. So it's been a very fulfilling journey for me to participate with keeping our republic and specifically uh keeping our republic gave birth to the Article III coalition. And it's very fulfilling work. And and I and I tell you, I'm just getting such incredibly positive feedback in every endeavor that I undertake, whether it's you know, issuing a couple of op-eds which I've done, co-authored with other members of the Article III Coalition, a couple of town halls, a couple of web webinars. We're going to continue this work. Uh and and because the need for public education and public engagement has never been greater.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

I couldn't agree more, Judge. And we're so grateful for all of the work you've done and continue to do. And of course all the many ways you've served our community over the years. And I'm grateful that you were able to spend a little bit of time with us today. Hopefully we'll have you back on again to talk about some more of these interesting issues that are affecting all of us. But until then, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

I I hope to come back often thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

We'll have you soon. Thanks, Dudge.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

If you like this episode, please share it on social media and tell your friends it's the best way for folks to find out about us. I hope you'll agree that our guest is indeed a keeper of the republic. If you want to learn more about how you can help keep our republic, stop on over to our website, keep ourrepublic.org