Episode 39 with Cole Hamels

One of the best lefties of his era, Cole Hamels joins Mo to talk about game planning vs hitters, the infamous 2008 rain delay, super pitching staffs, movies and more!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The Mo Vaughn Podcast MVP brought to you by Vaughn Sports Academy and Perfect Game. I'm Will Burge, alongside the man himself, Mo Vaughn, and we have another very special guest. Greg just continues to hit home runs out here. I'm telling you, Mo, he's he's the beast. Cole Hammels joining us on the pod today. How's it going, Cole?

SPEAKER_02 0:16

I'm doing well. How about you guys?

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We're doing great. Hey, well, listen, I love having pitchers on because I think they give a great perspective about what's going on with the game. I think it's very, very important for our listeners out there to understand that you got a guy here that's got some great information, understands what he was trying to do as a pitcher, really was the dominant left-hand era of you know of his time, won a World Series. Just a great guy. I think we're gonna have a great conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I mean, you guys were just talking shop off the air, man. I could have we could release that. That'd have been an episode in itself. That was great.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

True, true. I tell everybody, I was just telling you, I'm glad I didn't have to face him. Him throwing 94 with that change up. And back in our time, you know, when I was playing lefty lefties didn't really use the changeup too much. We kind of like had to eliminate that. But he would have had, I think it would have been 6'4 coming straight over time. That would have been some tougher bats for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah, no, I know I know that's kind of what I would look at. I mean, when I faced uh Ortiz or you know, even some of the other uh big lefties, uh, you know, you have you have Damon and nowadays you even have Freddie Freeman. Um guys I battled and uh Christian Yelich. Uh that pitch got me out of a lot of jams. Uh and it just helps set up at bats throughout the game because I think once you had one time, a guy either swung and miss right over the top, they're looking in the dugout going, what was that? Yeah, and and then it kind of they they're slowing down the at bat, but they're they're so hesitant to then commit on the 94 and trying to turn on a 94 mile an hour fastball. So that those that was the battle that I would notice uh, you know, when they were in the box, just trying to pay attention. And you know, I I got really, really fortunate with Carlos Luiz as my catcher, and he could notice those slight adjustments that you guys would do in the box that I might not necessarily see. How you guys might drop your hands or something like that. So then we would just play together. He would uh, you know, there were there were great times where he would throw a ball back or he would I would shake him off once and he'd put the same sign down and I go, Oh, you know something. And so we just kind of had to recognize that it took us, you know, it took us a couple months and years to really figure that out. But that's why we were so good together for about 10-year period.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Hey, and this is what like Cole, you you you've had a tremendous career, you're now in the booth on Sundays in the in you know with the Phillies. What do you see? Like our guys, I I tell people all the time, as a hitter, that guy is has in the plan to get you out. He knows what you're good at and what you're not good at. And he's gonna pitch according to. And it may change because you know, you may do something in a series or or or in or or or in that back that that that my guy, my thing is I'm trying to make you you do something different. I'm looking here, you're looking there, but in and out. What do you see now from when you were pitching and you had to pitch, and there was a game plan to what's happening on the field with batters as they go through a process? Do you see the same type of thought process, or is it more just I'm just swinging and hoping?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

I think a lot of what I've noticed is there are game plans put in place for these hitters, and then sometimes they step in the box and then they completely forget about what the game plan is. And I've watched and I go, are you guys kidding? Like this pitcher, this is the pitch he's going to throw, you know, 70% of the time, and it's going to be in this zone. And then when he's ahead in the count, he's then gonna throw this pitch and it's gonna be in this zone. So why are you not playing with it? And they're still they lock into one side or their strength and they just sell out for it for three at bats. And I think that's kind of the frustrating part is they're not really playing the game of baseball.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Do you think that's do you think do you think that it's kind of part and parcel with the youth movement with guys getting pushed up so fast in the majors? You think that's that's that's gotta be a catalyst to it, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I I do, and I just think because the numbers are so, you know, it's kind of like the pay-to-play. Uh, you're gonna get a big contract if you hit X amount of home runs and your slug is this. But in certain situations, you have a pitcher and you're like, all right, we're down by four. You're not gonna, you know, there's only one guy on base, you're not hitting the grand slam. There's not enough guys on base. You've got to move the runner over, you've got to get on base too. And they're still thinking home run. They're still thinking a style that I'm like, no, no, no. Manufacture, work, work account, slow the pitcher down so he makes the mistake and get a hit. And now you worked him. Now the next guy has a higher likelihood because the pitcher's wearing down, he's getting frustrated. Now you're creating um, you know, some pressure that he's got two guys on base. And it's worth game, yes, because that that right there, I did not like when guys were on base, and especially when there are two two guys on base, the three-run home run does kill you. But at the same time, when they're constantly getting hits and it's just turning over, that is so frustrating to a pitcher. And I think a lot of these pitchers don't really fear that because guys are just trying to hit the home run. Say I give up a two-run home run and I still have a four-point, uh, a four-run lead. I'm not that stressed now. Nobody's on base. Now I can still work and just get out of a jam. And a two-run lead is a two-run lead. I I wanted to win. I and I would give up hits here and there, I'd give up runs, I'd sacrifice the runs because if it didn't affect a win or a loss, that's how I kind of play.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Right. Music to Moe's ears here, Mo. I know it is, right? Mo Mo loves that. Loves it.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I I just I just like I I I that's why I love talking to guys that know what they're doing on the mound. Because I hear a lot of I hear a lot of batting ghosts talking about you want to hit your pitch. Well, wait a minute. He's got the ability to throw his pitch. You have to hit his pitch so then you can get your pitch. Yes. He's good. I tell other people the reason why guys are in the minor leagues versus the major leagues is because they can't do what big leaguers can do. They don't have the command. So you can have a great minor league season and put up stats, but when you get to the big leagues, it's a totally different game because that guy has command. So to get what you want, you got to hit what they can give you. And I just try to talk to people, young guys, about that all the time. And it's like uh it's like they don't understand that. You'll get what you want, but he's got to know you can hit it hit his hit his pitch also for a single. Stay on the ball, stay on the ball, stay on the ball. Oh, turn. But if you're not doing that, if you're thinking he's all about turn, he's got the ability to throw the ball to the black of the play consistently. Cole handles is gonna wear your ass out if you're not looking to hit the ball where it's pitched. And I think that's what the frustration is for me. But listen, let me well, before we go, I gotta, I gotta first, I always like to to to to talk about, and it's important to me for us to understand our our guests. We got a guy here, all right. And if anybody understands, and I understand we got a guy here out of high school, and before he he took the SATs and scored a 15-10. What the hell is going on, Cole?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Like, you gotta be smart, right? You gotta be smart. Yeah, sorry about that. Dog, um, yeah, no, you just gotta be smart. I think that was uh that's why I like the game of pitching, because it was a thinking man's game. And when you're out there, you're playing the long game, so you have to have so many different scenarios playing in your head, and you have to you're just playing them out, and you're studying days before the game. And I think that was the best part about being a starter, is I had so much time to you know write a read a report, create my own report, uh, highlight what I really liked my strengths and weaknesses were versus the strengths and weaknesses of the hitter. And that was the fun part. And again, you know, Mo, you you said it earlier. I was trying to outlast you, and and I'm trying to outlast the other starter. And I I am going to work you, and I don't care if I go full count sometimes. I don't necessarily want to, but I am just going to kind of beat you down until you give in. And then I have you, and then that's what I'm going to try to exploit. Uh and that was just the matter of what I enjoyed the most about it. And I know it kind of uh, you don't really see these guys that are going seven plus innings anymore. Uh not really seeing guys go 100 pitches. I knew when to throw big fastballs, and I knew when to just locate a nice 90% fastball down and away or a 90% fastball up and in where you guys just fouled off. I loved foul balls. Foul balls were something it's a strike, but it's getting you to swing and commit, and it's also getting you to think like, all right, what was he trying to do here? He's in the zone, so I've got to be ready. He's he's gonna be in the zone. So you kind of have to feel like you have to stay aggressive. Then I can throw these pitches that are gonna have movement and deception, and you have to commit because you're like, well, he's gonna throw strikes, and that's where I would just work these situations.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

We got the Hammels Foundation, okay? Uplifting lives, communities across the globe, funded child progression. Talk about your fan foundation, man, because that's very that that shows what type of man you are.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, I I grew up, my my dad was uh, you know, in school. He was a director of finance for a school district, then he moved to you know, assistant superintendent, and then he, you know, kind of part-time did uh you know, was the superintendent. Um, my mom was a teacher. So education and and uh you know, Heidi was a teacher at one point. So we really just focused on education would would kind of provide so many more opportunities. It opens doors, uh, and there's a lot of people that just don't have the opportunity to get out and to find their way. And and we always thought that, you know, school's a big deal. Uh there's a lot of uh kids and even teachers and boards that are just struggling because they're not getting the resources. And we were trying to identify that. We tried to, you know, figure out the process that we had in making sure that our funds counted. And we did that. We did that uh in Philly, uh, went down in Texas, um, you know, and we did uh in Malawi, Africa to you know, building a sort of that's where you donated the 32,000 square foot home. No, no, that was Missouri. So yeah, so we ended up donating to to a charity too, is a uh a situation. We always try to make the situation. So it's you know, that's that's just kind of something that we've always believed in. Um the Phillies were really huge when I came up about giving to back to your community and and what it is to be in the position that we are. You know, they're incredible sports fans. And we're just you know very fortunate to be able to be able to play there uh and and play the game of baseball, you know, in the United States that we wanted to see what would be just have a big impact. And and we learned that from the Phillies and in understanding what your community is to you and what you can create, and we made we tried to make a difference the way that we knew how.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, is there any guys that you watch pitch now that you're like, man, I love the way they approach it. That's I just every time he's he's on the mound, I got I got to tune him on.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Uh Max Fried, uh definitely. I watched him in 2019 when I was with the Cubs. We ended up going there and he pitched, I think, the day the first game. I I ended up pitching the day before, so I didn't match up that uh time against him. And I watched him, I was just like, oh my gosh, this kid's 22-20. I go, he knows what he's doing, and he's just starting. And now watching him, you know, what he's done uh in his Braves career and now in the Yankees career, he's so fun to watch. And he's constantly wanting to get better. And that's what I really like is he's he's not satisfied with the level that he he's playing, he wants to be better, and and that's what I really respect. Um, you know, you have uh uh some of these guys that that I've watched, um, you know, even on the Phillies, uh Sanchez, you know, a guy that was effectively kind of wild and got an opportunity, and he went in and worked at it and now throws you know such a high strike percentage and has the off-speed pitches, and you can tell he really enjoys going out there and pitching. Um, you know, you're all you're always gonna you know like the big guys that you do see, uh, and whenever they do match up, I I'm down in Dallas, so I can still I can still watch de Grom pitch. You know, he's he's been one of the best uh when he's healthy, and it's just impressive to be able to see. And I and I always do root for for the other guys that are my age, you know, the you know, uh Verlander, I want him to keep going. I mean, this guy has been doing it for 20 years, uh Scherzer, you know, 20 years. I I just it's it's incredible to watch because we're the same age, and I'm like, I can't even throw the ball 70 miles an hour right now, and these guys are still doing it every five days. So I'm like, kudos to you guys.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Man, just for our listeners, we're gonna do a little inventory for Cole. 15 year MLB career, one 163, 120, 163 wins, 122 losses, Phillies, Rangers, Cubs, Braves. Look at those organizations. They're all winners over there. ERA 3.5, 3.43, 2,560 strikeouts, four-time All-Star, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2016. World Series Champion, 2008. We're gonna get back to that in a minute. World Series MVP 2008, NLCS MVP 2008, no hitter July 15th. What a year, some serious stats. All you need to do, bro, is play play a few more years. You would have been you'd be right in the hall of fame. I was trying to. I was too. I got hurt. I couldn't couldn't couldn't do it. Tell me tell me about playing in Philly. Um I feel Philly and Boston probably the two toughest places. Why? Because they're one team towns and they're very, very passionate. When you got to Philly, tell me, you know, and you started going, you know, tell me how that pressure, how that pressure was, and you must have relished, relished though those times.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

No, coming from Southern California, you don't know what to expect on East Coast sports. You don't have a we didn't have MLB network, we didn't have the way the internet is these days where you can watch and pay attention. You you really only had two baseball channels, which was TBS and WGN. So the only times you ever would have seen the Phillies might have been matchups on those games. But it was it was some you you heard, you kind of hear the rumblings and you go in and you start to meet uh you know the media, and you you you then have to study up. I mean, they give you that like uh media good guidebook uh when you get drafted, and you're like, all right, start learning names, start learning the history of the Phillies, and you know, these are the people that have uh come before you gotta show your respect. And then you start reading uh the newspapers uh because that was kind of what we did. We didn't have the internet as much. So you're like, oh my gosh, this is tough. It's rough, but you do you understand they have this passion and this love for the sport and their sports, and they just want you to do well. They live through you, and you can either provide the highest of highs or you can provide some lows, and they're just gonna treat you and tell you about it. Um, so you just learn to be humble uh when you're doing well and when you're not doing so well, you put your head down and you start grinding. And that was something where my very first start was on the road. So I didn't I didn't get to start at home, but then I came back a couple weeks later. Uh I went on a weird DL uh stint. And so my first home start in Philly, I got booed off the field. I barely barely got through the second inning. I gave up a bunch of runs. I just kind of hit this weird lull where I then had to start studying. And I'm I'm getting booed off the field. My gosh, I've only three starts into my career, but it really makes you appreciate that you have to work for something. And you know, this game, it it's not just a game, it's a life uh that can provide so much and the entertainment value of what Philly expects and winning uh does everything. It changes uh a lot of the morale, and you want to be a winner. And you could see when you do well, you're on the back page and it's all great. And when you do poorly, you're on the back page and the headlines are just as negative. So you just you you really appreciate because you, you know what, they're coming out, they're watching me play a game that I got to play in the backyard that I love so much, and I get to do it as a career. And so you just you want to do it for them, uh, not only your teammates in the organization, but you want to do it for these fans because you can just see the excitement that they have. And that's you know where it leads. When you start really winning, then you see the passion and the excitement. And it's it's hard to explain. It really is. It's it you're a rock star and you really do enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

You got some monster teams there in Philly, monster teams. But we got to go back. Mo just mentioned it. Let's go back to 08. You gotta take us through your what's going through your mind on the mound as the rain's coming down because you get that infamous uh rain delay that ends up happening. I mean, that's just as a I'm in Cleveland right now, and I sat through that rain delay with the Cubs uh game seven, and I'm I'm crapping my pants and I'm in the stands. I can't even imagine what you're feeling like you're standing on the mound that game.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Uh I I mean, honestly, it was as the game started. I mean, you're just trying to get through it, and you're getting one inning, two innings. My shoes are starting to feel like they're both 20-pound cinder blocks, and you slide, and and Mo, you know this. It's as the as the fields get wet, you don't want to overstep because you're gonna fire some up in the up in a stage. Yeah, something. And but at the same time, you're you understand the importance of the biggest moment in you know at that stage. Um, I started to lose my curveball and even my changeup at times. I could not grip it because it was so wet and I could not get the follow through. And you then start to aim it. Well, you don't want to aim anything because then you're just gonna hang pitches right down the middle. And you're going up against Tampa, Tampa had an incredible lineup. You didn't want to give them anything to come back. Uh, so there was there was a time where I mean, Chooch and I are looking at each other and he put down a sign, and I knew I couldn't throw it. I couldn't feel it, I was gonna throw it off the backstop. And I didn't want to let that other dugout know that I can throw this pitch because you just said it, you eliminate that, and now you can hone in on your pitch a lot more easily. And I don't want to give you your pitch because you're gonna have a higher success. So I kind of had to keep that illusion. Uh, and I just kept working, and I was so focused after that game, I was the most exhausted I've ever been. I mean, just the focus that I had to have. And I had the guys in the back, you know, Jimmy's in a puddle, and even Chase. I mean, these guys, the the water was just getting, and they're looking at me like, well, how long is this game gonna go? Like, when is the call this? This we're not gonna be able to make a play, and we did. We had a couple plays that Jimmy couldn't make because it's hitting water. Um, you know, it's just unfortunate circumstances, it's not the the the the sort of baseball nature of what you would expect.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah, the game inside the game, man. That in there and focus, not letting anybody know how you really feel. Because you're right, we're looking. If we can eliminate something, that's in our favor. And and I and listeners out there, you gotta understand, like, you know, the the the amount of of professionalism and grit a guy like Cole has to get himself through that situation. I think people sometimes think, you know, they they show up at seven o'clock and watch us play. They don't realize what happens at one, two, three, four, five, six p.m. And those are the things that are that that that you know make the player, and that's what what made you so successful.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

No, I appreciate it. Yeah, though it's it is, it's a lot of work, and I think that's what's changed a little bit. Um, because I know you guys asked earlier, what I've noticed is you know how the game has changed with the uh adding analytics and just how much information it's added. It's become almost too consuming. And it can create a crutch in a way where you have so much information that you're looking at these papers and you're almost going brain dead. It starts to become a blur, and that you've then you put so much pressure on yourself that you you don't know how to simplify it. It's just masses of mass amounts of information. And some of these guys only know how to survive with information that they don't understand feel, and they don't understand the deceptiveness of just simplifying a situation and just working one pitch at a time, you know, and just next foot, more at work, next inning. And, you know, that's how you kind of build. You you really have to identify your strengths, not based off what a computer tells you, but based off what you're feeling day in and day out on how you play catch, how you work a situation, how you're working your bullpen, because it's a lonely, it's very lonely out on the mound. And you you have to get yourself out of jams, not by looking into the dugout, and they're not going to show you a bunch of information of how you can get out of the situation. You have to retain it. So you've got to stick with your strengths first before you then go into a lot of this uh other information that they have.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Perfect simple. Yeah. So I'm I I've never met Rob Thompson. I hear nothing but but rave reviews about him as a person, as a manager. You know, it really sucks when when when you know managers get let go. They're not out there playing the game. They're they're you know, it's for us to go out and play the game and do our job. But it's always easy to fire one versus it is to fire 25, 26 guys. And you know, he he he he worked really hard. I thought he was great with the players. But tell me now, and what you've heard, you know, I think you got a little bit intimate, you know, information about it. When Don Matley took over, you know, as the interim manager, he said one thing that was that I was listening to. He said, we gotta play better baseball, we gotta play more consistent baseball. Now, you and I both know that at 7 o'clock the game's in between the lines, and that's the game. So there must be there must be something that he's doing pre pre-game, pre-thought, pre-information that it maybe have changed the minds of the Phillies. And I maintain this you need veteran players to play in Philadelphia, like Boston, like New York, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox. You need those guys. What has Mattley done with his experience as a player and a manager to bring out how those little things need to be done, accepted, and worked on, most likely before, you know, a pregame?

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, no, you you said it spot on. Um, there's something when you have veterans and you're a young guy or even a middle-tier guy that's been playing for you know six or seven years and has a great contract, the veterans have seen it all, they've experienced it all, they're on their way out, and they're trying to leave one last glory, glorious impression of what they did, the impact they have on the game, and they keep everybody honest. And I think it was when you they, you know, when the Phillies had to let Rob go, and he's one of the nicest, I mean, Topper, I loved him, great manager, great person. Uh it it I it was, I don't think it was necessarily his issues. It was something where the players needed to finally step up and turn the turn turn the lights on. Uh it was something like they were going through the motions, you know, even though they're trying to figure it out, but something needed to turn the light on. And unfortunately, the firing of Rob was the one that do it because you just said it, you can't just fire 25 guys in a $300 million payroll. And how are you going to fill that? Um, so there needed to be some honesty, I think, amongst all of them and some accountability. And I think that's what you're seeing. And Mattingley knew, you know, with what the track record he has as a player, but also he's been a great manager. Yep. I think it's then, okay, guys, like you just saw what happened. What else do you guys want to do? There's expectations in Philly, and it's to win. There's expectations when you're all getting, you know, $20 plus million dollars a year to play this game. You have to go out there and put out the best effort, and you have to be accountable for each other. You're there to not embarrass each other, you're there to not let each other down. And why not try to be the guy that you could put on each other, you know, put everybody on your on your shoulders for one moment and you're grinding on something and trying to deliver, and everybody in that dugout knows what you're doing. That motivates the next guy and the next guy because it does become contagious. And I think it was a matter of they did have some bad luck and things were not going their way. And now it's, hey guys, we have to make the luck happen. Uh, we just can't wait for it. I think things were, they were just waiting for it. They're waiting for them to turn the cage. And it was a matter of, no, we now have to make this happen. Otherwise, the season's gonna get away from us, and this is just not gonna be a fun place to be.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Being as close to it as you are, was there any worry, you think, for awkwardness, especially you know, if there's been reported overtures of you know, Alex Corr, and maybe does he want to take that job? Or is or isn't all that go out the window because obviously it's a manning the manning family is throughout the entire organization. Do you think there was any awkwardness with that at all?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

No, no, no. I uh you know, Don is a professional and I've you know got to know Preston. Preston is uh such a professional too, and he's earned his every step of the way, he's earned it, and it's been really great to see. Uh they're they're all base, they're baseball people, and you want those types of baseball minds, and they have good work ethic, and that's what you want to see is they're they're coming with the same vision uh and the same mentality. And now it's a matter of how you can construct and get somebody, get the others to motivate. And and when you can motivate everybody, it's go time. Uh, April's past, it was not a very good April, but we're into May, and we've now got to turn the page. And it's this is what we're doing. The spring training's over, you know, it's the touch and feel. It this all means this is business.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Tell me about Andrew Painter. He's a PG, former PG All American young kid. Uh, there's a lot of excitement around him. What have you what have you seen? What have you heard from him?

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Uh, I mean, just what I've watched. I mean, I watched him last year, and I know getting a full year after surgery, surgery is one of the worst things. I know, Mo. It's like when you get a surgery, it's you don't know if you're gonna come back the same, and and you're just touch and feel, and you don't know when to finally push, and then you don't know when to finally know you've overcome it and you don't have to think about it anymore. That's that's a big hurdle. And I think this whole last year was a really good step for him, and now he he's big league ready and he's gonna go through his lumps. Uh any big pitcher that's gonna be worth anything is has to learn. Um, they have to learn their strengths, they have to learn the league is going to make adjustments, they're gonna study you. You're a top prospect, they're gonna pay attention. Um, they're gonna gun for you. Everybody wants the gun. And so now it's you how you answer back. He's got tremendous stuff, and now he's just learning how to pitch and he's learning how to read swings and the situations because uh big league hitters do things differently than minor league hitters. And I know Mo you said it. It's it's a different game. Um, but he has the aptitude and the fight to be great, and that's what I've really uh taken from from watching him. His work ethic is good. I love watching his bullpen and how he's been trying to figure out how to you know create his pitch shape and then where he's going to allow his his style. And and that's where it is, is creating his style. So I think and and that's uh I think what I've also liked is he has a pitching staff, a veteran pitching staff that he can look to to improve on and ask questions. Uh that's the hardest part, is when you look at some of these organizations that don't have successful starters that are veterans, it's hard for these young guys to learn and to follow and then want to prove themselves. You don't have any, they have no level of of what you want to do. And and that's when I came up, I had guys that I was like, I'm gonna be better than you and I'm gonna fight. These guys are like, you're not better than me yet. You and that's the internal competition. I think that's what I loved about those opportunities. And sometimes that's where they struggle, is they don't get good enough veteran pitchers to help their young top prospects flourish uh in the big leagues.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

You had a great staff you were you were with lots of guys, Oswald.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Oh, that was a fun one. Yeah, when anytime you're going with Oswald and Roy Holiday and Cliff Lee, Joe Blanton, uh we were all top round picks, and we all had success in the big leagues, and and everybody was fighting to see who was top dog. And and we were all there encouraging. We wanted you to be the top dog on your day. It's like, no, you're top dog. We want to see you go nine innings, ten punch outs, not give up a run, get a hit. Uh we wanted that for you. And then the next game, it's like, it's my turn. I'm gonna show you guys how to do it. And that was it was great to see.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

That's how it works. That's how it works.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Over the years, you obviously played a bunch of different roles. Um, when do you think you felt because obviously just listening to you speak, you could tell that you're a leader, and guys probably, especially young guys, probably gravitate towards you. When do you feel like you found that in your career? Is it something you always had, or did it develop? Did you get pieces of it from other people? Like, how did that come together?

SPEAKER_02 30:40

The Phillies were, and and again, talking about uh what that organization, how smart Pat Gillick was, he went and traded for Jamie Moyer. I mean, Jamie Moyer already had 20 years in the big leagues, and just the experience that Jamie Moyer had, and they go and they trade for him and they put his locker right next to mine. And now I'm his throwing partner, and I'm gonna watch and watch how Jamie Moyer goes about his business and how he attacks hitters, what he does in between starts, how he uh how is how is he in the dugout when he's not playing? How is he out in uh just daily life? How does he live? And they're like, This is a person you need to emulate. Uh, if you want to play 20 years in the big leagues and you want to have success, you can be better, and he's here to help you get better.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

He's been on, he's he's he was on our show too. Lots of great information. You had a great mentor from him, great guy, solid, solid dude.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That and that, and he'd hold you accountable. I mean, the time's playing catch with him. If I missed him, he'd let the ball go right by and he'd look at me and I'd be like, Oh, I'll just get another ball next to me. He goes, No, no, no, no, you're gonna go run out there and get it. And I you see me up to the ball, and I'm running back, and he goes, Let's go, kid. He held you accountable. I and I had you know, I already had a year in the big leagues, but he goes, A year in the big leagues is nothing. You want to have 20. You your goal is to get 20, your goal is to win, your goal is to be an all-star. You've got to do things right, and it and it starts right here, right now. I was like, okay, that was really awakening for me, and and it helped every step of the way it helped. He was one of the best.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

You accomplished a ton in your career. I mean, so much different things. You grew up in San Diego's SoCal kid, as you said. You never got to actually go out and pitch for him, though. It's like, is that does that eat at you? Is that is that like the one thing that got away from you?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Well, that in 2023, I you know, I came off a shoulder surgery that I had in 21. Um, it was a two-year recovery. And that's what Elatras said. He goes, I will put you together so you can attempt your comeback. It's nobody's ever done it. You got 0%. Uh anybody, nobody's been successful, but I will do it. And with your work ethic, what I've seen out, you know, the 15 years you've played so far, you have a chance. And I pushed and I signed with the Padres because I just want to put on a Padre uniform and pitch there, you know, hometown. Uh, you know, that's where I was from. Just wanted to do it. They were good. And I tried all summer uh in Peoria at that spring training complex. And I tried for six months. And I had, I gave myself three setbacks. I was like, okay, you know, the building up, you're gonna have these setbacks, and you build back up. And after my third setback, I was almost ready. I was I threw a live uh bullpen uh the day before the all-star break, and I was back up to 93 miles an hour, all my pitches working. I was so pumped through it. It was about a 30-pitch bullpen, and they're like, next week, you're going out for live hitters, you're gonna go play in games. You got three starts in triple A, and we're bringing you up. And those those six days of the all-star break, I couldn't move my shoulder. I couldn't move it. And then I came back and I said, Hey guys, like my shoulder's just not responding. And that was those were all the setbacks. It's just I would go get it up there, and then I couldn't recover. And you can't do that in the big leagues. Uh, you're expected to pitch every five days, or if I went to the bullpen, I'm expected to pitch almost every one or two days. And that was something they thought about too. Um, I tried to throw, so painful, and that was when I really did. I I had to pretty much have that sort of sit down. I mean, we all do as athletes, it's it's that realization that you're like, you know what, I gave it everything I possibly could to do this. I lived a dream. I threw until my shoulder said no, my body said no. Uh, I have no regrets. Um, but it was nice the potteries gave me that opportunity to be in spring training, put on a uniform. I just I would have loved to be able to do it at Petco Park and uh you know on the professional level, but it just never came.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

What was that moment like for you?

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I knew. You know, you know when you know when you ain't, you know, it's just not and see for me, you know, I had a bad left knee, couldn't really flex. And then I'm on top of the plate. So how I defended myself was turning on balls to to let people know that you couldn't get in there. And all of a sudden I couldn't do that. And I wasn't gonna move where I was where I was standing, so I was like, it's it's time, you know. I mean, you you really can't defend yourself. And it's it's a hard it's it's a hard feeling, it's a hard feeling. It's it's because you compete and and the way uh the way Cole pitched, it's like the competitive spirit is just there, but you also don't want to make a fool of yourself either, and you gotta know when it's time to walk away. And and that's the hardest, that's the most important decision, but also the hardest decision. But once you get there, you know, you you you once you get there and you get out and get out into life and it starts moving, you you you you you know, you you feel better about it. But it's it's not easy.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Well, and and that's and that's what I've noticed now when you know going back to spring training, being around the Phillies, uh, you know, in the role that I have, I watch these guys throw bullpins, I watch them work out, and I'm like, oh my gosh, my body does not move like that. I I mean it's so impressive just how they can do it. I'm like, thank God I'm done because this is wild, how great they are. And I I always I try to give each generation that comes up a little bit better than the the last. And just physically, it's just the mental side that we have. You know, we have that such competitiveness and that knowledge. Uh, that's where we develop the skill. But physically, these generations are just lightning and strong, and just how they can move is very impressive. And I'm glad we're gonna let you go.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Before we let you go, we gotta go one more. I always have a curveball for you, Dan. I like that Greg gave me a layup on this.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Give me an I'll be ready, be ready, Cole, be ready.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

All right. So Greg says you're a big movie guy. Is that true? Yes. All right, you gotta explain to me. How the hell did Marty Supreme not win one single Oscar? How did that movie not win one Oscar? That's insane. That movie was I I I've a huge I loved uh Uncut Gems. I like that style, that real ADHD eccentric, like real high-paced. I thought it was an amazing movie. I can't believe it didn't win a single Oscar. How'd the hell?

SPEAKER_02 37:04

No, I mean, I think it is when when you kind of get into this voting, like it's sort of the politics of voting, and you have to respect everything else. Yeah, I I I mean, you do you see just the beauty and and how directors and producers create these movies, and then these actors, how much they really get involved, and they do tremendous jobs, and they're going up against the best. And and I mean it is, it's like picking, you know, you know, which which guy did it better. And and that's where I kind of I don't have the sort of experience to know, like, oh, well, he was able to act in this way that gave this sort of view, and look how he carried himself, and look how then the the supporting cast now he improved this whole movie because he helped all these other different angles. Um, yeah, it's it's so tough to get the the right recognition. Um, but it is. I enjoy watching movies and just kind of you know seeing it, it was the best escape from baseball. And I think that's what Greg was so great about. It's like, hey, let's go see a movie late. And I'm like, I'm in. Anything about either a loss that I had, what city are we in? You're like, oh yeah, let's go see a movie. This city's not as fun that I was expecting. So yeah, we we enjoyed it. Greg was one of the best, um, helped me along the way because I mean he was he was there in the beginning. And I don't know if Greg always tells you, but every year he gave me one out because uh of where I didn't have to do the media, and he hated it because it was mostly on a game. I just got my butt kicked and I was pissed off, and things didn't go right, and I just didn't want to speak to the media. And I would he would see me in the clubhouse and I was heading out while he's like, No, no, no, no, media, I go, and I just like kind of he knew the one, right? Gave me one a year. So I heard Greg ran a tight ship, man.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

He didn't he didn't mess around with that stuff, Greg. No, no, no, he's solid.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Yeah. No, I just want to say it's great talking to you again. I'm glad I didn't have to face you. But from speaking with you, I know why your greatness, man. You're great, dude. Got a great, great mindset. I hope at some point in time you're delivering that to all the young young pitchers. And we got to keep talking the game the way it's supposed to be, talk and the way it's supposed to be played. It it hasn't changed much. It's I I don't know where everybody's getting all this information from. It's the same game as when it started, and hopefully we can get back to guys thinking like you and thinking like me, and and and the game will get back to its form.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Well, Mo, that's it. No, trust me, I love it. I you and I uh it's hard because with broadcasting and talking about the game, I've had to kind of button up a little bit because I don't want to expose patterns in the game of what I'm gonna do, or I might start to see because the other team can listen, and I'm like, oh no, I want the Phillies to win. But this is how I got this this hitter right now. You can get him out for the next three at bats, and I don't want him to know.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

But yeah, it's the game within the game that we're always very uh passionate about and and the knowledge that we have, it it goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Great to talk, bro.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Thanks, Mel.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yeah, appreciate you jumping on, call.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Thanks, Mel.