Episode#32 - Leading with Nature's Blueprint: A Systems Approach to Resilience with Nate Payne

When everything is going well, leadership is easy. But what system do you rely on when the pressure is on and the stakes are high? In this episode of The Resilience Catalyst, Joyce is joined by Nate Payne, a leadership consultant and author with 30 years of experience, who found the ultimate leadership model in an unexpected place: nature.

Nate shares his journey from an IT professional to a leadership consultant, explaining how he grew frustrated with contradictory and outdated leadership advice. His search for a simple, repeatable system led him to an "aha" moment while watching a documentary about the Serengeti. He realized that our organizations are not like machines; they are living ecosystems with predictable patterns.

This conversation explores Living Systems Leadership, a framework based on the timeless principles of nature. Nate and Joyce discuss why leaders must shift from asking how do I fix this? to what is this connected to?, moving from surface-level solutions to understanding root causes. They break down why many workplace conflicts are not people problems, but system problems, and how leaders can redesign their organizational ecosystem to incentivize collaboration and build true resilience.

Key Takeaways:

• The Flaw in Traditional Leadership Advice: Much of it is contradictory and fails under real-world pressure.
• Organizations as Ecosystems: Shifting your perspective from viewing your team as a machine to seeing it as a living system changes everything.
• Design vs. Blame: Resilient leaders ask "design questions" (What conditions created this?) instead of "blame questions" (Who screwed this up?).
• The Power of Incentives: People act in their own self-interest. A leader's job is to ensure that what gets rewarded aligns with the organization's stated values.
• The True Measure of a Leader: It's not what happens when you're there; it's the health and resilience of the system after you've gone.

Connect with Nate Payne: https://www.natepayne.com

#Leadership #SystemsThinking #Resilience #OrganizationalCulture #Burnout #FutureOfWork

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you're feeling drained, exhausted, overwhelmed, or burned out, this show is for you. And I want you to know that you're not alone. Millions of professionals are operating in a resilience deficit. On the Resilience Catalyst Show, you'll learn how to understand, rebuild, and grow the currency of resilience so you can restore your energy, think clearly on the pressure, navigate conflict with confidence, and sustain your performance without burning out. I'm Joyceon, your host, friend, and resilience catalyst. Let's get started. Hello, my friend. Welcome to another episode of the Resilience Catalyst, where we make resilience attainable, achievable, and simple for you and your family, your friends, and your colleagues. It should not be rocket science. You need a roadmap to be able to build resilience, to live your best life now, and we are determined to ensure that you get that. My name is Tracea Diderson and I'm your host. And today we're going to talk about resilience in as a system. And I have a guest who's going to be uh sharing with us. Nate Payne is going to share his system with us and give us some insight about how he sees resilience. As you know, this month we're focusing on the whole area of self-mastery. Resilience, one of the elements of resilience is self-mastery. So as we weave that into our conversations, we understand that our emotions are not just there, they are how we experience the world, but they don't define who we are, who we get to control them. So welcome again. And let's invite Nate to share with us. Nate's good day. Good to see you. Tell you a little bit about Nate. He's a leadership consultant, speaker, and author with more than 30 years of experience advising IT and business leaders across Ortune 500 companies. So Nate went from advising companies in IT to building his own IT system. Let us hear from Nate. Nate, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Thank you, Joyce. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Okay. So tell the audience a little bit about your journey to where you are.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yes. So I usually tell the story as I just wanted to build a spreadsheet. And, you know, 30 years later, here I am. I started in IT, just plugging in computers, and sort of took that path. Eventually, about uh 22 or 23 years ago, uh, had my first real leadership role, and I thought, well, you know, I will approach it in the same way that I approached technology, which is I will read every book, uh, listen to every video, take every seminar that I can. And so that's what I did, which was helpful. However, over time, I started realizing that some of the advice was unattainable. It was very difficult to do everything that was being asked. Some of the things were actually contradictory. And then, third, over time they would become outdated, and then something new and fresh and repackaged would come along. And I really just wanted something that was simple, repeatable, under pressure. Because when everything's going well, it's easy to be a leader, right? It's fun to be a leader when everything's going well. The question is when the pressure is on and the stakes are high, that's when your system, your beliefs, or what have you, that's when they show up and you know what you really have. So there were a lot of good lessons from the books and all of the leadership development. But again, I was looking for something that was simple, something that was repeatable, something I could teach someone else, especially, like I said, under pressure. So it was just by accident. I'm watching television one night, a documentary comes on called The Serengeti Rules. And I realized in that documentary, it talks about ecosystems and how they work. And it's based upon research from uh a guy named Robert Payne in the 1960s. And that's when it hit me. I said, My gosh, you know what? Everything that they described about all these different ecosystems from tide pools to the savannah, there were patterns. And those same patterns existed within our organizations, right? Our human-designed systems. And that was it. I was off to the races and I said, okay, nature doesn't change. In principle, it stays the same. If I learn this and I can learn to operationalize it, then I have my answer, right? All of the answers, really, because they are there in nature. So that was the beginning. Uh, that was about nine years ago. Um, and I got to a point where I was finally ready to sort of codify that knowledge, those patterns that I uh discovered across all those different ecosystems, and I had to come up with a name for it, and nothing seemed more appropriate than living systems uh leadership because that is exactly what it's based on is living systems.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Wow. So you went from being an IT person to into leadership and recognizing, oh my gosh, I need the tools to lead. And this is so commendable because most people expect to lead with the same skills they have, not realizing that when you're in leadership, you need new skills in order to lead people because people have brains. It's not easy to lead people with brains. It's easy. So you went to research and read all these books to get tools, and now you have all these tools, and you're finding that, well, they don't all work at the same time or at the same place, and they don't all work when you're under pressure. I need a different system that's a lie. And you talk about the ecosystem, and and that resonates with me because we talk about we help organizations to create their own resilience ecosystem by understanding that the humans in the in the in the business, in the organization, are living, breathing parts of that system, and when we connect the whole person to their work and to the system, we have more synergy and we have healthier organizations. So I just it's just amazing how this aligns to uh with what we do. So tell me a little bit more about your journey once you figure out this ecosystem strategy. What what what happened for you? Where did you go from here?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yes. So it originally what I was looking for was something to bridge the gap uh between uh, say, technology, which is sort of my domain, and speaking with senior leaders, decision makers, right? Those those key stakeholders who may not be as familiar with technology. And this would apply to anyone who has expertise in a certain domain. How do you make that connection? So we again we have this human element, right? So there's going to be a certain amount of maybe bias. Um, sometimes there are hidden agendas you're unaware of, conflicting priorities. There's sometimes power dynamics that are going on. And you have to juggle all of those things and make recommendations and sort of find a way to push those recommendations forward because you understand that those are in the best interest of the organization or your team. And how do you do that? So that that was one problem I needed to solve. Again, but but nature solves that for us because all of the things that we aim to do, which is to sustain and grow, uh, to allocate resources effectively, it's been doing it for billions of years. It does it every single day. As a matter of fact, as we're having this conversation, it's doing it right now. The the second part was sometimes this is a little bit more difficult, especially from a technology point of view. The computer has parts, it just works, the parts fit together, it's a machine. And sometimes what we do is we think of the organization, we think of people almost as parts of a machine, and we try to lead them and engage with them as if they are mechanical. And as you you pointed out, it we're not. We're living, breeding ecosystems. Uh, and if you think about it, it's like nested systems within systems within systems. Yep. And so you go, oh my gosh, well, the complexity around that. But here's the great part the principles are the same. So when you learn the principles of the human body, uh, of a forest, right, of a tide pool, it's the same principle. And I can carry that not just inside the organization, but also into my ordinary uh everyday life. So that's what I was looking for is one, how do you deal with those interpersonal relationships? Um, some of the things that we talk about now is burnout, and which is which is a big thing. Uh, people don't feel engaged in their work. And you start looking to nature for those clues, and they are absolutely sitting there because they are patterns that just repeat themselves over and over again across all the different uh ecosystems.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

So very true, you know, because uh, you know, you talk about burnout, and one of the things we teach is how to decode burnout because burnout sometimes is due to rustout. People are disconnected, they uh they're just they don't have enough stimulation or the right stimulation or they overstimulate. So we have to, when we see those things, we have to understand where does where is it coming from? Because nature is usually adapts and fixes it, corrects itself. You have you have the spring, then you have uh the spring rain to moist, then you have the summer, then you go into the fall, then you're going to if you look at the seasons, nature is has a way of adapting and recovering itself. So we need to ask what is happening, where are those issues underlying and what is pushing them up to the surface as these symptoms? And so many times in organizations we rush to address the symptoms because it means we can see it, right? Let's fix the system. Oh, your brother, okay, let's let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Instead of asking, what is behind that? So it's that it's that staying in that single loop, right? Do we know the single loop, double loop, triple loop thinking? Staying in that single loop, well, let's just fix it instead of saying what is going on, which is a double loop, or the triple loop that says, Who do we need to become as a result? How do we transform in response to this? So that doesn't happen very often in organization. How do you help your clients to go into the next loop of learning?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yes, good question. Uh, so one of one of the keys, I I think the the source of what you're describing there. Um, I actually did I I wrote an article about this that's not quite out yet, but I talk about this idea of uh when we were little kids and the first time you were in class, and you raise your hand and the teacher asks a question, you answer the question, and you get the answer right. And so the teacher smiles and kind of nods, and we move on. And in that moment, as innocent as it may seem, it was almost this unspoken contract, this lesson that we're being taught that being smart and capable is about having the answer and having the answer fast.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

And that lesson gets repeated over and over throughout our lifetime, right? So throughout school, we go to we go to college, we get out of college, we go into our work uh place, same thing, have get the answer, get the answer. Now we're in a leadership role, and we still think that that's how we handle it. Whereas instead of asking, uh, how do I fix this? We we say something like, What is this connected to, right? Like you were saying, what what's the underlying cause? And it moves us from being what I call precision on the surface level to moving towards understanding. So I think part of it is first to answer your original question is just to say, why is this happening? And part of it is because we were uh trained unconsciously, I think, uh, to always seek the answer quickly before asking questions or uh looking for understanding. So then you say, well, how do I how do I do that? Right? How do I uh move from that mindset? And part of that mindset, and this was the journey around living systems leadership, is, and I I say this jokingly, and I have different ways that I do this about what is a leader, right? And I say, well, people think that a leader is about getting people to follow you. And I say, well, people don't follow you though. They don't. They're following what you make possible, right? So when you understand that, now my role shifts a little bit from being uh the person who's in control and the director to a person who's more of a cultivator, right? A steward of it, right? And I start asking design questions instead of blame questions. Who dropped the ball, who screwed this up? I might ask something and I say, what conditions exist that made someone think that this was the rational decision, right? And so once you start asking those, now that's gonna lead you, right? Like you said, the the second and third loops, because now I'm asking better questions, and now that leads me to better answers. So that's the step that we take, the first step.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

That that is a step that's missing so much because when I go into an organization as a conflict analyst, this is what I'm looking for. What you know, many times leaders are saying, Oh, you have to come and help us fix this conflict. But the way they expect me to do is to take the two people in conflict and go fix them. And I'm like, no, there is a system here that allows and feeds this conflict. So, yes, I can mediate and have facilitated discussion with these two folks, but if they come back into the same system, the the underlying structure is here for this to happen. I just had to have this conversation with a young leader that I'm coaching. I was like, no, you're telling me that these employees are a problem, but I can clearly see, even from just listening to your conversation, that there is a systemic problem here that they're trying to cope with with the skills they have. You see, now the blame is like they're misbehaving. No, they're trying to survive in a mucked-up system. So this is their survival tactic that's causing you conflict and creating conflict. Because when you remove them out of the system and you give them a different environment, they are amazing employees. When you bring them back to this environment, they they don't do their work, they're conflict, there's issues. I'm saying you need to ask different types of questions. What is going on here that's creating these conflicted behavior for these employees and creating this revolving door always in HR, always couple? I was saying, no, the problem is right here. Let's let's focus and asking the right question. And it was like in a matter of 20 minutes, it's like, oh, I guess this this that's there in the problem. They they need they they need more resources, they need their own workspace, their own working station, they need yeah, this just just by simple unraveling to look at what is the system because conflict is a catalyst for change.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

It's not it it it is opening the door for us to see we need change, so we should be responding by saying, What changes can I make to the system as a leader to motivate different behaviors, not to say these people are bad, they're horrible, they can't behave, they're always in conflict, we shouldn't have hired them. I'm like they're great employees in a bad system, this physical system.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yes, no, that I mean you make a really good point. I so one of the principles that uh I think underpins uh what what you're saying is uh people act in their own self-interest.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

It's a core principle. Okay. If if you don't have that principle as a leader, here's you create systems, you create incentives, okay, penalties, rewards, right, that create that conflict. So the like you said, it's survival mode for that person. I'm going to protect myself in an environment where I feel I need to protect myself. Exactly. Right. So any of us would do. It's right, but again, now we're, but see, now we're looking at it from again a design. We're accepting what I call the operating system. Okay. So we we get so consumed with aligning all of the systems internally that we forget that that entire thing sits in a much larger system called life. It's called reality, it has rules, it has constraints, it has principles. And to the degree you can align yourself, your decisions with those, it just takes that load off, it makes it lighter. And you talk about resilience. Look, sometimes I yes, it's determination. Sometimes it's about commitment. I get it. Yes, we need that in life. But if that's our default state, there is something wrong. We shouldn't have to continue to bounce back all the time. There's something in that design. So I always go, there are some incentives here that are not in line with stated values. This person, these two people are in conflict because of something that they they believe, that it's in their best interest, or at least in their self-interest, to behave in this way. And we need to get down to the bottom of what that is.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Absolutely, because conflict is always going to be some kind of competition for scarce resources, whether it's time, space, whether it's income, whether it's attention, whether it's status, whatever it is that we desire it's going that we see some conflict with. Because our brain, you know, in my fifth book, Hurt, Upset, Angry, Frustrated, I talk about that. I started the chapter by talking about the brain and conflict. Because sometimes we forget how our brain was designed. Our brain is designed to keep us safe, make us happy, ensure that we have what we need to be happy, to feel good about ourselves. So that means my brain naturally wants me to have the best of everything, be the first in everything, be the happiest of everyone. It is now, and so when we talk about self-mastery, I now have to remind myself that my brain is gonna stimulate these ideas and thoughts, and I'm gonna have emotions that will make me want to have more than everybody else, um, the best of everything. I now need to master that. I now need to be attentive to say now why when I get everything, what's left for others? And you know, it's almost like you we talk about when we were growing up, your parents would teach you manners. That has gone out of the window. And so I find myself in, you know, from the the almost 30 years doing this work, I feel sometimes like we're the incubator, we're helping people develop skills that they never got at home. So here they are in the workplace, and things are bouncing back because the the behavior that they are exemplifying is not collaborative, it's not cooperative, it's not inducing positive dialogue. So we are in conflict. Things are not working, people are not talking to each other, they're not collaborating, and we see more stress and turmoil in the workplace because the skills to negotiate life is not fully equipped.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, that's a root, that's a really good point. I, you know, one of the questions I like to ask when I first go in and just having casual conversation is around what gets rewarded in this place. You ask the leaders, you ask uh the team members, because that gives you some sense. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, what gets rewarded? So, if to kind of piggyback on your point about the collaboration, again, I'm gonna always start from one of my core rules that people act in their own self-interest. Okay, I want affirmation. I need affirmation. I want to know that I'm doing a good job, that um I have value, right, that I'm contributing in some way. Now, there are a myriad of ways that that can happen. So if collaboration is one of those ways to get the pat on the back to get that affirmation, then you need, and that's what you want as a leader, you have to incentivize that behavior. But if I raise the individual, the person who goes out on their own and does a fantastic job, and I celebrate that person in front of the group while speaking to them about collaboration, well, now my stated values and desired outcomes are in conflict with what I'm incentivizing. So it's not that I won't take that person and thank them for their work, but I'm looking for collaborative work. And I'm gonna make a big deal about collaboration because over time people are gonna come to realize oh, I know how to get a pat on the back. I know how to get the affirmation, I'm gonna go grab my partner over here, or I'm gonna go grab these two people over here, and we're going to powwow and work this out together, as opposed to me going off by myself so that I can shine alone. So again, it's it's a system design in the way that you approach it. And it's it's just really slight, right, in the in the way that you make the changes.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, and and I I think the more we learn about life, the better we become. And one of the things uh someone asked me uh a few months ago, Choice, what changed, right? I created the wellness improvement system back in 2003, 2006. We started putting it online and it started evolving. But it wasn't until I became a student of that tool that we moved to the well-being intelligence. We moved to the currency of resilience. We created the Wiz Resilience platform to provide that deep immersive experience, that mirror like reflection of what am I thinking, feeling, and doing and desire to come together in an immersive experience. It it's not until we move from teaching, oh. Hearing to being a student, learning. That's when we truly get to that place and make the transformation because that learning changes who we are. And we move to a triple loop learning place where we are now seeing things and we're transformed. Our context is being transformed. And that's where we can have the most impact.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Everything that you describe requires humility. And sometimes this is the piece, it in my humble opinion, that we're missing. And I get it because again, we're incentivized culturally to stand out, to stand above, to lean in, to speak up, whatever you want to say, right? But but you want to receive credit, acknowledgement for what you do. It's all about separating yourself. So you come up with an answer. And I think that worked for about a hundred years or so. And again, I say, you know, if if you're looking at uh machines and you're you know punching out wizards all the widgets all the time, great, that that's fine. It it works in that context. But right now, like you said, I think we're starting to realize that human beings are a little bit more complex uh than you know machine parts. And it it doesn't mean that um every you know everyone, you say treat everyone different, but there's still some core principles in that across humanity that that work. Right. So humility is the one that the answers are already there. We don't have to relearn it. And if we think that we're going to learn some new technique, some new framework, some new methodology that somehow is outside of life, then I think we're missing the point. It's it's when we humble ourselves, I think that we can now proceed in the way that you just described uh to continue to be a student and realize uh I think it was Socrates says, I I know that, you know, I I don't really know anything. And that's what it comes back to.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Every day you wake up like, oh, I thought I knew something yesterday. It's just it's amazing because when I created that system, it was the universe's way of taking my what I do in my path as a conflict analyst and show me the human element to it. And when I go into organizations, this is the thing they always say is, oh, this is so human. It's so it's the whole person, it's so holistic. Because how can you take the person out of the conflict? The conflict exists because the persons are unable to separate their needs and interests. And so until you teach them how to do that, the conflict exists.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yes, yes, and it is a it there's a certain self-awareness that that has to kick in at some point because we may not understand why we do things. My personal theory is that behaviors almost primarily driven by fear, fear of loss, whatever that is, uh status, respect, opportunity, money, what have you. But when you come to a point where you realize that there is no loss, there is there is nothing to lose. But again, I'm circling back to the idea of humanness and and humanity and and who am I? You know, what is my my core belief? Some of those issues just they just disappear on their own. They're they're no longer Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

You know, Solomon, the wisest man on the planet, when he did come back to you know, reality, says vanity, vanity, all is vanity, right? It's all vanity. We we make it up, you know, a mind and we create this image of what it is and who we are, but they say perception is reality. So if you build up these perceptions, they're gonna be your reality, and you're going to think from that perspective, you're gonna act from that perspective, and you're gonna treat people from that perspective, and that creates your reality, and that is you just it's a cycle, just keeps repeating itself until you grow and you move to another loop of learning and change that cycle. You're gonna remain in that cycle. So the goal is asking yourself, which cycle am I in now? And how do I move to the next level or the next cycle? Because humans, our lives are cyclical. We have circadian rhythm, we have all these things. We we our brain is designed to learn patterns and repeat them. We can't get away from that. We just need to understand how we're wired, and then we will have better results. So understanding we are systems creatures, our life is better. Okay, you want to change, you need to create a system around you to support. We call it structures in coaching. Well, you need that system for you to be successful. Don't expect success without a system to a structure to hold it together. And I think we forget that from time to time. And then we fall down and then we pick ourselves up, and then we're like, oh, I need to do something about this. Yeah, you're third rate, you have to.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah, I I think part of it too, you know, maybe I'm being a little facetious here, but I think we we kind of did something with leadership. And I don't know, maybe 30 or 40 years ago, it changed. And what I mean is we we we almost turned it into a product. And we we you know, you give it a name, you give it a brand, you put you put a wrapper on it, and you market this thing. And like any other product, I have to do a refresh every so many years, right? Um, to keep people interested. In some ways, I think we got lost around what it was supposed to be. And so I have this uh visual, this one slide where it's all these puzzle pieces, and you know, and it's all the like the top, I don't know, like hundred leadership books in a direction. And even if you're sincere, I just want to be a great leader, I want to go through the loops, I want to learn. But as you begin to do this, you realize this is nearly impossible for me to show up every day and be everything that you want me to be and know when to be that, right? Because the hindsight is 2020, and everyone says, Oh, you know what, you you should have done this. Oh yeah, I wouldn't, I would have, I would have done this approach. And I'm saying, okay, so I have a bunch of knowledge, but I don't necessarily have wisdom or understanding or discernment in terms of when I should do that, uh, the timing of it all.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah. And that is something that comes with your own transformation. It comes with as a lead, it comes part of the, and that is why when we go and we put leaders through these, oh, you take this certificate and you take another certificate, without the immersive experience to truly understand who they are, what they're made of, and how they bend, they have no clue. So they're just gonna regurgitate what's on the paper. And you know, I I recall working with a leader. I've worked with thousands of leaders in the in the time that I've been working. And I remember this particular leader and he said to me, Joyce, you know, we're just playing the role. And I said, tell me more about it. Because in in um healthcare, in places like uh engineering, in some of those high-tech, high, I guess, high pressure jobs as a leader, you have to be all ego. You have to know all the answers. And I remember when I'm coaching, when I'm coaching leaders in these the the doctors, the physicians, the dentists, the engineers, and I challenge them and I say, What if you listen to your people and ask them more questions instead of telling them the answer, which may not really be the right answer. Yes. Joyce, we are the boss, we're supposed to have the answer. And this is what their profession tells them. Yes, you're supposed to have the answer, and so they are terrified to let go of that image of them knowing everything.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yes. Well, and and here's the the conflict, the contradiction. So what you just said is absolutely true, but at the same time, there's just as many books telling you uh, you know, to show empathy, um, to ask questions, to do these things. But then this person over here says something totally different. And now there's there's this confusion. But the people we celebrate, the people that I see on the magazine covers and all of these, the people get the attention are the people who they seem to have all the answers. They they are those people who are uh authoritative, right? Those are the people that we celebrate. And again, I want to be celebrated, so I do. I almost mimic, I behave like them. This is the shift, I believe. And I think we're only in the early stages. I really believe. We're in the early stages of the shift toward what you're saying around the human approach, um, which to me is isn't is nature, is life, um, that that blueprint that's just sitting there waiting for us to follow. You know, it's whenever we decide to do it, it's there waiting for us. It's working for us every single day. Uh, but there is a shift. I think people are asking for something more. And eventually, I think with the work that you're doing, it will uh continue to spread. Because again, I'm just acting in my own self-interest. So if you teach me a new way and that way brings me what I desire, the outcome that I want, guess what? Now I'm an advocate for that way. And if I can get that outcome and maintain my peace of mind, because that's when we are at our most powerful, is when we are at peace, which almost is the opposite of what they teach us, right? Is to be anxious and a go, go, go, go, go, which you said earlier is not how life works. The seasons, everything cycles. We don't cycle. It's Q1, Q2, 3, 4. We treat them all the same. It's push, push, push. And I'm saying, okay, but at some point, this is the opposite of almost every ecosystem that sustains itself. So now I question what is our purpose? Is it sustainability and growth? Or is it this short-term measure that makes me look good, right? Because Nate was here, and when Nate was the boss, we hit all our targets. But what Nate did is he he sacrificed the long-term health of the organization. He burned out the people, right? Uh, in order for him to be exalted. But we celebrate Nate.

unknown 31:58

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

And the person who inherits what I left.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

That's what we were socialized to do.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yes, but that is changing. I do believe it is changing.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah, you are correct. And thank you for a great conversation. So he's speaking to that leader who is watching this. You know, he's come this far, and he or she is thinking, well, how do I get there? It's coming, how long do I need to wait? What can I do now? Speak to that leader needs. Help them to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, so you don't have to have all the answers, just to speak to your earlier point. That is that is not your job, right? We we have a story that we've been told about, I call it this hero leader, right? There's there's a problem, the hero flies in, the hero solves the problem, people all cheer, and then the hero flies off. And you know, and at one point, I think that worked. The types of problems that we have today are different types of problems. So it's gonna take people, like you said, to ask questions, right? To to distribute. And I'll I'll leave it with this. When you think about a forest, any tree in that forest, if it falls, the forest doesn't collapse. No. And the reason is because all of the pressure, nothing is concentrated in one place. So, real leadership to me is about what happens when you're gone. You move on to a new position, you retire, you move to another department. Our ego says, Oh, it fell apart when I left. I was the one holding it together. And I think the dynamic that has to change is that the true measure of that leader isn't so much when they're there, it's what happens when you leave. So I say study nature because the answers are right there in front of our face. Um, for billions of years, it's worked.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Nate, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I love it. Love the focus of this conversation. And to those of you who are joining us, you're listening, this is the Resilience Catalyst Podcast. And my guest today was Nate Penn. And we really had a good exploration as to how we learn, how we lead, what are the elements of our lives that we can transform? So if you are in leadership in some form in your life right now, and you're saying, Where do I make? What's the first step? Where do I go from here? Uh, Nate, how do they connect you to you?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Well, they can reach me at natepain.com. They can schedule a free talk and uh let's just take a look at your system, right? No pressure, let's just see what's going on. And uh, like I said, nine times out of ten, it's not a people problem, it's a system problem.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Beautiful. So if you are working in a system that's causing you harm, that's helping preventing you from being your best self, where you are finding yourself in that survival mode, it's time to come out. Contact Nate to learn about his system, get a free resilience, resilience index report that understand where you understand where you are in the nine dimensions, where you need help, so you can get started. Go ahead, connect with Nate. Of course, you can keep following our podcast and listen for the next episode where we can talk more, we will be talking more about the resilience, the nine dimensions, and how to stay in that place where you are always learning and rebuilding your system so you can move to the next level, next loop of learning. Thanks for being here, and I will see you in the next episode. As you go back into your work and life, remember that success and sustainable performance doesn't come from pushing harder, it comes from building capacity. Your resilience can be rebuilt, strengthened, and sustained, but it takes one intentional step at a time. Thank you for spending this time with me on the Resilience Catalyst Show. I'm Joyce Edison, your host, your friend. Until next time, take care of your energy and your resilience.