Ep. 16: Missouri Nonresident Deer Hunting: Proposed Regulation Changes by MDC

On this episode of the Keota Outdoors Podcast, Luke sits down in the mancave with Patrick Thompson, a whitetail land specialist, to break down the newly proposed changes to Missouri’s nonresident deer hunting regulations. Together, they thoroughly examine the Missouri Department of Conservation’s recently published survey and discuss each potential regulation change in detail.
Luke and Patrick cover the possible positives and negatives these updates could have on Missouri deer hunting, including impacts on hunting pressure, opportunity, overall experience, and the age structure of Missouri whitetails. Their goal is simple: finding what’s best for the future of deer hunting in Missouri and the long-term quality of the herd.
They believe some of these proposed changes could positively benefit Missouri’s mature buck population and improve the overall hunting experience across the state.
Be sure to check out the MDC survey and make your voice heard before the April 20th deadline.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the Killed Outdoors podcast. I've got with me today my friend Patrick Thompson. He's a big butt killer, kind of like some other guys I've had on. And I've got him on here today to talk about MDC's new proposed regulation. So Patrick, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Thanks for having me on. My name is Patrick Thompson, and I like Luke here. I'm from North Missouri, North Central Missouri. I'm from Randolph, not too much further down the road. Moverly, Missouri is actually where I where I live and lived most of my life. Moved a couple of times, but mainly been there my entire life. Went to University of Missouri, studied agriculture, been pretty much ate up with hunting my entire life. My dad, I don't know if you knew this, but my dad's taxidermist. Yep, I did know that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Pretty well-known taxidermist in the area.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So he's been doing that for I think close to 40 years. So I basically grew up completely, you know, infatuated with deer and hunting of all kinds.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

You saw a lot of deer come through the door.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I've seen thousands come through the door. So it's been that's kind of where I got my, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Your hook.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah, that's where I was hooked with it my entire life is just seeing seeing everything brought in the door, seeing all the stuff that he does. And of course, he was always, you know, we we went and hunted every weekend, you know, from the time that I was old enough to do it. That's what that's what we did. And uh my mom didn't always like that, you know. But she was you know, she was always supportive of it too. Um, but that's that's pretty much where my life started as far as all my hunting career. And then of course the you know, the fact that I knew I could do um habitat enhancements to help you know create better situations on the properties I was able to hunt. That's what really you know fueled my drive to get into that. So and then of course learning about agriculture, it was a you know a lot easier for me to to understand and and and you know, do things like planting food plots and forestry and those things. You learn about all the things that you need to to know for that and then get experience in the industry, and and that's kind of what sent me on the path I'm on now as a uh as a habitat land manager, doing it for a career and a business, and um, and then also some real estate sales.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Right. So what is your primary job, like you just mentioned? So habitat management, like you have clients, different properties?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yes, so that would be the the primary business of mine, uh, but it it goes hand in hand really well with real estate. Absolutely. So I'm I'm with uh uh David Wilt and Luke Shoemaker out of Macon, making Realty and North Missouri Land Company. Yeah, so I work with those guys on that end of things. Um I sell a little bit, and then of course, that land and habitat management business, Thompson Land and Whitetail's the name of it. That's really my main business.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

You know, that's my main way to make what you enjoy too.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, some days, yeah. Some days it gets a little crazy out there, but uh yeah, that's what I really do enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

And so that's that's is your stuff so like in that position? Are you like giving clients guidance and advice or are you putting hands on their farm as well or bits of both?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Both. Um it's not always, you know, I'm I'm in the business to make money, so you know it's not a hobby, it's it's your job. I can do as little or I can do as much as as the job requires. I mean, I've done consultations, I've done um obviously lots and lots of food plots. Uh that's kind of the main driver for most guys is is getting some kind of food plot. And um, you know, that's that's usually your main attraction when it comes to wildlife enhancements or habitat enhancements. Um so food plots, um, custom spraying, custom CRP maintenance, or really any any government um program that they have through like equip or private land conservation, you know, if if it comes down to prescribed burns, um, you know, whether it's getting a piece of CRP ready to be enrolled, re-enrolled, um, or forestry, you know, TSI jobs, certain things like that. Okay. I I do all that stuff. Um, and really, I guess the the list kind of goes on. It just depends on what the individual client is trying to accomplish, whatever their goals are. That's what I'm there for. So I can sometimes it's not very hands-on, sometimes it's okay, all hands-on.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

How many of your clients just say, I want to kill bigger deer?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Well, that's everybody, right? Yeah, that's what I figured. Yeah, that's everybody, but uh, you know, there's all a realistic process to that, and that's kind of what I try to to help these guys realize is and a lot of a lot of them know, you know, what's required to for one, attract more deer and then kill bigger deer, sure, hold more deer, yeah, and it's usually habitat related. So I offer services and you know all sorts of that into the you know into the spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Absolutely. And I would say um that's something you don't get a degree in, that's something that you just learn along the way, and you have a good resume of killing big deer. So like I I know you through Kylie. Right. Um, if you're listening to the podcast, you know Kylie Harpster's been on the podcast a couple times talking with me, and Patrick and him are partners in the quest hunt every year. Yeah, and you guys typically place really well at the quest hunt.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

We've been fortunate. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Kill a couple solid deer as a team every year, and you're gonna place pretty well there. And so I like I see your pictures on Facebook of Big Buck or your dad killed some good deer too, and I'm sure you help him with that or as much as I can. He seems like you guys did that together for sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

He definitely had to spoon feed me for a few years when I was coming up. So, yeah, exactly. So now it's kind of nice because he can just concentrate on doing his thing with work and taxidermy, and I take care of that end of it. And you know, just go hunt. I'm just like, hey, you know, I got the cell cams running again. Here's the pictures you want to see.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

You know, here's the login.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

How do you use this app?

SPEAKER_02 6:26

I don't know. All right, I know. Here you go. I've I finally got my dad talked into some cell cameras, and now he's addicted like I am. Like we share our, you know, we share ours and we can look at each other's and he'll he likes it. He'll screenshot it since we'd be like, You see this? I'm like, Yeah, dad, I saw it.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah. And that's for him, he's he's really busy, so he doesn't get to put boots on the ground very often. Uh, so that's kind of fun because it kind of keeps him locked in, you know. Sure. Kind of keeps him motivated to go. And how how many deers do you do in a year? Um, I mean, it just depends on the year, but I would say generally speaking, a hundred plus. Um, and then a lot of work. Yeah, it is a lot of work, and he and you know, he's a very hard worker because he also uh is full-time at the fire department in Mowberly. Right. I didn't know that. It's uh they have a 24-hour shift, and then of course they get 48 hours off, so that's when he does all his tax streaming work. And then he's he's lucky to you know accumulate enough time off, he takes off for deer season is available during the fall. But uh yeah, probably 100 plus deer, you know, several turkeys, tail mounts, antler mounts. You know, he'll usually have some stuff from Mount West come in, some exotic stuff from maybe Africa or Asia. It just depends. You know, he's he kind of does it all, and to be honest, I'd say I can't probably think of anything off the top of my head that he hasn't mounted. Right. I mean, it would shock you. Like he's had I mean, he's done all kinds of projects for people, you know, people's uh coyote hounds squaring off with coyotes. Yeah, that's cool, you know, just anything you can think of.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Taxidermy's so cool. I've always loved it since I was a little kid. Yeah, just I don't know. And that's I love to collect it, I guess. Yeah, like I love looking at it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

That's exactly what you know. That's a big part of the reason I've enjoy what I do so much, is just seeing all that stuff growing up, being exposed to it, and then having those conversations with the people coming through the doors. Absolutely. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

So I do some European mounts every year, anywhere from like 80 to 100 euros a year. And like I love visiting with the people that come in, tell the story, where they you know, how they killed it, what happened. Like that's that's 80 bucks stories I hear a year. It's fun.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I was gonna say that's sometimes that's my favorite part about, you know, for example, opening weekend. You know, I'm not a I obviously rifle hunt, but you know, I'm more of a bow hunter. But one of the favorite pastimes I have is those opening weekends because you're seeing all those deer coming through the door and you're you're getting to hear all those stories, and you see a lot of people that are pretty pumped up, you know. So it's it's just good energy and it's pretty cool. And especially when you're at a taxidermy shop, usually people are bringing something that's quality deer. Yeah, they're bringing something special.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

That's the downside of doing Euros is I don't get the big ones, I get the medium-sized ones. Every once in a while, I get a big one. I'm like, you should you took that to the wrong taxidermy, you should be getting that shoulder mounted.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, yeah. The nice thing about a euro, as long as you you know keep the cape, you can still do it later.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Absolutely, or get a different cape, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

But I mean, those are kind of popular too because it is nice to be able to pick it up, physically hold it.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Euros are growing, especially as like the price of taxidermy is going up with everything else. It's just like, you know what? A euro would look great.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yeah, and and yeah, materials on all that stuff's gone up crazy last few years. But I mean, it's kind of just like everything else. Yeah, it is. You're right. But uh, yeah, it's that that's something I really like about, you know, that obviously that part of my life has been pretty fun. So that's exactly why I'm I'm so ate up with it.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Right, you know. So we'll get to the topic we planned on talking about today, and that is the Missouri Department of Conservation's new proposed regulation changes for non-resident deer hunters here in the state of Missouri. Missouri has been unique compared to some other out-of-state or other states here in the Midwest, as far as deer regulations go, we're over-the-counter. Right. You roll in, you buy a tag, you go hunting. And you know, like you know, the orange army shows up like two days before rifle season, like every town is just full of trucks and a trailer and a side by side, and it's just crazy. And this and there's a lot of out-of-state guys, and especially it seems like from the south, like guys down south that don't have as big a deer, they've got camps up here, and like they make it a it's a ritual, it's every year, it's a tradition. They come up here and hunt every year, and Missouri's looking at changing some of these rules, and it's gonna affect a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Um, it definitely is.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

So MDC has posted a link on their website as well as on their Facebook page, and that link takes you to a survey. You can fill it out as a resident, as a non-resident, right, um, as a deer hunter, as not a deer hunter. Yeah, I mean, everybody, anybody can fill it out. Right. Anyone can fill it out. They're they're open to suggestions, and I will say that the deadline to fill that out is April 20th. So if you're listening to that, um you don't have a whole lot of time left to go fill that out, but I mean, go express your opinion. Like that that's your chance.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I think it's a good opportunity because I feel like you know, I don't want to be a too big a critic, but uh I feel like sometimes the department doesn't always make the public feel like they have much of a voice, so this is definitely a good opportunity. Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

You're exactly right. That's a I'm glad that you said that that way because that you're right, it does feel that way. I think some of these proposed regulation changes I've heard people say in for the last five years. Like they've talked about this, and it's like, yeah, they would never. They have they're just not gonna do it. Well, this is them showing that, hey, we heard you. Yeah, we want to hear your opinion on paper now. And I don't know, it's yeah, I mean it's everyone's opportunity to speak their mind.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

I guess I look at it as you're exactly right on that. It feels like things just move at a snail's pace. And I know on their end of things, they really want to do the research, make sure that they're doing the right thing, and there's probably also the a little bit of a political side of it that they've got to deal with too. And and you know, we don't always love how that part of the process hinders progress that we want to see. Right. But uh at least if you have the opportunity, what do you got to lose? I mean, here's here's a chance to at least speak up, and the more of us that do it, the more likely we are to have some positive change that we want to see.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Absolutely. And I will say, like the stuff that we're talking about, there's a lot of things that are way over our head. We don't know what they're thinking. Money-wise, we don't, you know, they've got, I'm sure, lots of people looking at this and the effects of these changes that know way more than us about this, I'm sure. So um I don't I don't want to act like I know everything and I know the right decisions here.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I'm we're I'll be the same, I'll be the I'll say the exact same thing because you know, when it comes to studies and things that they do and you know the grunt work that's kind of a part of making those decisions. I mean it's all behind the scenes. It is, and I kind of sometimes I wish they were a little maybe a little more transparent with like, hey, here's what we're here's why. And and I think after this, all the CWD stuff that's been going on, they've been making a better effort to do that, so I gotta give them a little bit of props there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

But uh and yeah, the CWD thing's a whole different topic, but has a has a lot of people up in arms about yeah, Missouri Department of Conservation and how they've been operating, and a lot of armchair quarterbacks, like they need to stop, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, and it's easy to say it. Yeah, we can get into that a little bit more, but yeah, just on this topic, I mean it's nice to see an opportunity to to at least let your voice be heard a little bit, right? And you know, hopefully good things will be coming out of it, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

You know, so we're gonna kind of walk through this survey here just to see what Missouri Department of Conservation is proposing and what they're asking for your input on, and then we can talk about each one of those kind of as we go. So the first question you get into the survey, um I'll just read it. That way we get it right. The Missouri Department of Conservation is seeking public input on potential changes to non-resident deer hunting in Missouri. This is your opportunity to comment about the regulation changes being considered. Uh, for the 2026 deer season, so that'd be this fall, NBC is considering reducing the non-resident antlered buck bag limit from two tags to one tag. Non-resident landowners would maintain an antlered buck bag limit of two. So if you are a resident and we were talking, I'm not sure, or sorry, if you're a non-resident landowner, I think that's like 40 or 60 acres, somewhere in there, it's what uh the requirement, the minimum acre requirement to be a considered a landowner. Um, this really wouldn't affect you. Uh you'd still get your two tags. So it wants to know if you to what extent do you support or oppose this potential change. So, Magrick, what are your thoughts on that change? So going from one to two. Okay, so I'll go. So two to one. I think in my mind, I want to see bigger deer. I want to see more mature deer. I want to see more deer, honestly. But there's there's areas that have a lot of deer. Some areas that I hunt just don't have that many deer. Our numbers are kind of low and they seem to stay that way. But the quality of deer I feel like is down. Uh we were kind of talking earlier, like 140-inch deer, I get excited about it because we just don't get a lot of those on our property. And I would like to think that limiting non-resident l limiting anybody to one tag less than normal is gonna help with that. It's gonna take less bucks off the landscape, so it's gonna leave one maybe. Or when you limit somebody to one tag, they may think more about the one deer they're shooting.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

I completely agree with that logic. I think it makes the most sense. Um you know that's a to me, I've often wondered uh what our state would be like if we just were a one buck state.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

If everybody was a one buck state. Or everybody was a one buck state.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, exactly. Residents, non-residents alike, just due to the fact that when you talk w the stuff we're talking about today, it's all fueled by the fact that you think about the average hunter when they go out to hunt every year. Uh they're obviously doing it for a couple different reasons. But one, yes, they get use out of the the venison, you know, put it in the freezer, you got and you got that to use, you know, put put food on the table. But let's be honest, everybody the the infatuation with the American hunter and the big racked antlered white-tailed buck, exactly. That's what drives.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Yeah, I don't know anybody if there's a 150 staying next to a 130 that's gonna shoot the 130 first.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Exactly. And that's what drives this entire industry, that's what drives conservation, really. You know, when we look at the fact that, you know, historically during the 1800s, they about wiped out everything, right? You know, but still the fact that hunters could see the benefit that it gave to their lives and also the opportunity to, you know, hunting is just a a great pastime. So the fact of the matter is, is just it it it kind of made people look at it and say, you know, hey, we want to be conservative and we want to do the right things, but hey, trophy deer are pretty awesome. So I think that's what drives the whole thing. And I'm with you. I want to see more big bucks. Um, I mean, why do why do people hire me to do things for them? It's the same concept. You know, they want to have better success in the woods. And I've always kind of thought that, you know, hey, what would Missouri be like if we just had a few less bucks being taken and we were able to get better age structure, better maturity? Um, I think this will make a positive impact. I'm not gonna say that it's uh the end-all solution that's gonna help everything, but I think it's a step in the right direction, at least. And you're not completely cutting these guys out, you know, that are non-residents. Yeah, I like to go places and go hunting too, out of state. So I value that and I don't want to see it, you know, completely eliminated, but let's be honest, it's that's never gonna be completely eliminated. If we can be more conservative with it, I think it's a good thing. It should have a positive impact, at least.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Right. So another thought I just had was this looks big on paper. Like if you're coming from out of state and you're hunting and you're like, oh, I can only shoot one buck instead of two now. Right. But I'd be interested to see how many non-resident hunters are actually killing two bucks.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yes, I would be interested to know that as well. Um I can't imagine it's that high. You know, I maybe it is. I don't know. Uh I that's a good question. I would love to see those numbers as well. Um, I know that one thing I thought about before you know we were having this conversation, it was gonna be on this topic, is there's certain parts of Missouri that are much different geographically, and the resources that they hold for the wildlife are a lot different. And I also obviously see, and you probably see the same thing, north central Missouri is just madness during gun season, but that's because a lot of if you're coming from out of state, do you really want to go hunt the Ozarks? No, exactly. You're exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

It's almost like two different, completely different areas.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

You're gonna quality go hunt North Missouri because you you're gonna see bigger deer, you're gonna see better quality deer. And um, you know, I know just in the real estate business, we see an awful lot of guys from out of state that are buying ground, and and you know, that's a good thing for for the real estate business. Um but is it always you know sometimes it's it's tougher on the the resident wants to to buy some of this ground because you know uh you see prices on uh ground going up, you see prices on leases going up. Um there's a lot of things that non-residents make an impact on um other than just what bucks we have out there. But I've noticed that in these areas that are well known, you get a high saturation of of these people coming from out of state. And uh maybe not all regions end up with the same amount of non-resident hunters. So absolutely certain areas are being impacted differently than others. So, you know, I think it's a it's a step in the right direction, maybe not the end all game. Uh there's probably more to it that could be done, but I think it's gonna generally have a good, you know, pretty good impact, and there's more ways to build on it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

I just think about, you know, if like if I'm taking an out of state hunting trip, I guess some guys could possibly come here, buy an archery tag, and hunt some days of the rut with an archery tag and then transition into the gun season and could potentially kill two deer. But I just I don't know. Maybe maybe there's a lot of guys killing two deer or are actively trying to kill two bucks that are coming out of state and hunting, but I feel like that percentage is low of how many are successful in killing two deer.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

You know, it probably is, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I haven't killed two bucks in years. Yeah, and to be honest, like and I'm trying my ass off, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

I've I would say that most years I don't kill two bucks. Most years I'm I'm targeting one one mature deer, and that's what I'm after. And and then you know, if there's another one out there. gonna try and get my dad on it or or or maybe you know go after a coal buck later in the season um you know some bigger mature deer that's maybe not sure the first on the hit list but you know still a good candidate to to coal or to take out yeah you know it's five six seven year old deer at that point it doesn't really matter what their axe size is I mean mature deer is a mature deer so that's kind of the way I try to look at it anyway obviously if you've got a 200 inch deer that's on your farm are you gonna go kill that seven year old that's 142? Right probably not that 200 inch deer but but uh maturity is is kind of what I'm after and I certainly think that I don't know those numbers probably are pretty low but at least maybe it's a positive step.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Sure. So and it it looks big to like it from uh if you were a non-resident looking at this change like it's a that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah from the non-resident perspective I think it's definitely there's gonna be some guys that come here like you said regularly it's kind of you know their thing or they've they've bought ground here or they've invested um you know their time and and efforts in coming here to hunt and it's definitely gonna for for them they're gonna see it as a negative you know a downside.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yep absolutely and I imagine it will deter some people too there's gonna maybe be some people that say you know what I'm not gonna hunt Missouri anymore. I've actually I've posted a clip and some people have commented stuff like that like I'm done with Missouri which I think I think that's just big talk.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Sure yeah you're right because where else are you gonna go that you can get an over the counter rifle tag. Right. I mean and we'll get to that because maybe not here in the future either I think it's a I think it's an emotional response but when you start to look at the surrounding states um and then you you factor in what's available in those states and how difficult you know the barriers of entry are to get a tag we're one of the easiest states out there to get a tag. So yeah it's maybe going to have a negative side effect to a few people but I think generally speaking it's not going to change much. They're gonna still be trying to come here.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Right. All right so let's talk about the next question on the survey from MDC for the 2027 deer season so not this fall but next fall MDC is considering requiring nonresident deer hunters to purchase a non-resident public land deer hunting permit for$165 to pursue, take, possess, and transport deer on public land in Missouri the permit would be required in addition to the nonresident deer hunting permits. To what extent do you support this change?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

So do you want me to take this one first go first and that's only fair right sure yeah so I'm a little I guess I'm a little torn on this um in a way I think it's not completely unfair you know when you look at the amount of public land there is out there I'd like to know the numbers on this on how many guys um from out of state are are harvesting deer on public. I'm sure that it's probably a smaller percentage than those harvesting on private. I think so um but I do think that they're I I think uh and it's also going to depend on how they use these funds and um before we started you know we kind of chatted about this a little bit so that's that's an important part of it I think but I I definitely don't see any reason not to have some sort of extra cost for non-residents when it you know most states have like a habitat stamp for example I mean I'm sure you've encountered that you've you've been out west and stuff and um you know if we could take and apply some of those extra funds directly to enhancements in the public land that we have um you know I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of that seems like a lot but also if you're an out of state guy and we you know are let's just say the department could guarantee that hey X amount of these dollars is going towards either you know something like trying to get walk-in access ground you know where it's not necessarily public land but they take private landowners and arrange leases to where it is public access for certain months of the year. You know I think if if some of it was going to things like that that would be pretty that would be pretty good for everybody not just residents but non-residents as well so I'm curious on on how they're gonna use that money but I don't think it's a completely bad thing. You know right whether or not they're gonna whether or not non-residents are going to see it that way um that's a different story but you know it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world having some kind of habitat stamp if it's applied directly back towards you know either funding more public walk-in or um putting it towards private land conservation things that are going to help the wildlife I think if if if a certain percentage of it or maybe all of it was to be applied that way I think it would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Yep so so yeah I would agree with you there if that money is going back to the land to deer whatever it may be not some silly office renovation at the MDC headquarters or whatever something like that you know I right if they could be transparent about how they're gonna use that I think people would be fine with it. If they said hey your money's for sure going back to this I'd be more happy to pay it than and not that I'm gonna have to pay it but if I were a non-resident I'd be more willing to pay it knowing that that money's coming going back into the land. And we're not saying that it's not that's it probably is but we just don't know that.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah and but I mean you think about it there's probably a lot of things that they use some of the the funds for that have no really big direct impact on right you know habitat and and deer hunting in speci specifically it'd be nice to see it'd really be nice to know what what their plan is with that. You know I think that's something that would be if they could be kind of transparent about what their plans are with with that. I think it would maybe also help like if you're a non-resident you're coming here and you're like wow man I don't want to pay this but hey at least it's going back towards maybe funding more public walk-in or or better habitat management on those public areas.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I mean maybe more food plots because they do like MDC does do controlled burns they do food plots and like maybe this money's gonna go right back into that and yes or technicians who can do that work on our public lands. I mean sure maybe they're adding staff here and there to help get these projects done.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

In those cases I think it would be great um or you know boy this is really open up a can of worms but the uh the guys from down south you know tend to not really like us up here too much on the duck hunting end of things. That's true. So I mean that's kind of unrelated to deer talk here but uh you know if they maybe if it went towards doing something to where uh you know we've got better habitat for for that end of things and and non-residents have a chance to come up here and do some duck hunting maybe that would make them happy I don't know that's a whole nother game I don't like to I don't know that I want to get into that too much because I hear some pretty nasty talking pretty nasty about that stuff. Yeah that's very true. I like you know duck hunting is cool but uh man there's not that serious big competition man it's it's crazy. So I don't know it it'd be it'd just be nice to see what they're gonna do with that.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Another thing on the$165 at face value you read that that seems like a huge deal but just like we're talking about all these non-residents that come in the orange army rolls in yeah I bet 90% of them are hunting private and that's more than like it's not gonna affect them. There are some guys that come out of state and hunt public land you know I'll see them whatever but it's not as big as you might think.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

You read that it's like oh my gosh$165 for all non-residents it's not it's for just to hunt public land. And I think that's a pretty small percentage.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah and and I guess this is a point I thought about too like you've got to consider the fact that they're coming in you know some of these guys they're really hardcore and they're coming up here a lot um but but and I don't I also want to be careful about what I say here because I don't want to offend anybody but um you know when you talk about non-residents who maybe don't own land here they're really only injecting any sort of beneficial economic um you know money into our economy local economies here during one time of the year and they're not paying taxes here they don't own you know if they don't own property they're not paying taxes on that so really they have a pretty small impact whereas if you think about it from a the perspective of being fair as residents we're paying taxes we're paying sales tax we're paying I mean there's taxes on everything. So is$165 really that much when you look at what the average resident's probably injecting into you know public public funds and state income and all that I mean I don't think it's completely unfair but I know it's probably not going to be received well.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

No but nobody likes it won't be received well nobody wants to pay more money. So but at the same time if you're looking at a chunk of private ground I think that residents should have priority. And it's not that I do agree you know we get to hunt this spot first. It's not like that. It's just it's basically saying non-resident you get to hunt it too but you got to pay for it. You know you gotta you gotta earn it a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Right and and that part of it I you know outside looking in I don't I think that's a good thing. We'll just have to see how that's you know how I guess we'll have to see how that works out.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

But um have you had any ticks lately I just picked one off and crawling on my oh yeah they're out there. Let me just kill him real quick. Maybe he's fast. There I got him dang things that's the third one they picked off me today. Okay sorry another thing that I I guess I don't like about the$165 I get the more money I get it I feel like another way to do it would be increase tag cost across the board for nonresident. If you bump that tag cost up okay let me step back if you say that let's just throw this number out there of 90% of nonresidents are hunting private that means 10% of nonresidents are hunting this public and are going to pay that fee. Right. Well if you if you increase the tag$25 for nonresidents across the board you're gonna generate more money than you would be from this$165 thing. So I just I almost wish they just bake it in and increase the tag cost.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah or at least inflation's real everything's going up in in price it it no one would be super surprised by a a small increase in tag I think you're right and especially you know I when it comes to this subject on tag prices for the fact that you can get an over the counter tag easily in this state um I think it's not unreasonable to raise the prices especially when you look at the other states around us and what their prices are. Right. You know if you can come here as a sure thing every year and it's gonna cost you a little bit more I don't think it you know I think that's pretty fair.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah I think that's where I'm going you know like you know exactly I agree I do agree with that I pay eight hundred dollars for a deer tag in Colorado the time right apply for got to get the hunting license and apply and once you draw I mean you you're eight or nine hundred dollars in for a deer tag or an antelope tag whatever and I don't I don't even know we should have done a little more research.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I'm not sure what the current it's like 300 bucks yeah three something you know for Missouri I don't want to completely speak about what I am not super knowledgeable about here but as far as I understand it our department as is at least has their own budget and you know the state doesn't have state legislature doesn't have all their hands in it. So that's probably a good thing for us uh I I want to say that's what I I believe that's true. Yeah I'm not sure I think it is I think it is so states like Colorado you know they're probably just gonna continue to raise the prices sure exponentially over time because they're just you know they got a bunch of people that are trying to get their hands on some of that money that's generated. Whereas I do think that the department it's it's kind of good because I think that they are somewhat separated from the rest of the state bodies. So that's probably a good thing. But it would be nice to know you know what where some of that money is going I guess.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Absolutely it would be nice to see it you know definitely coming back to to private landowners and in you know different state projects where they could enhance sure the habitat you know that we have okay next question and remember this the$165 that's talking about uh 2027 so not this year but the next so the next question on their MDC survey is beyond the 2027 deer season so starting in 2028 I believe they could mean even beyond further than that I don't know MDC is considering establishing a draw for nonresidents to be able to hunt deer on public land or on public and private land. So they're kind of just being pretty vague about that. Seems like they're considering draws for just public land or maybe considering public and private land. So all nonresidents that aren't landowners.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Well you want to take this one no you got it okay I don't disagree with this um I do think it's only fair for the non-resident landowners that I think they ought ought to obviously have an opportunity to you know get a tag every year. But I don't see the draw system as being a bad thing overall. I think it probably makes sense for the long run. I'll be curious on how they structure it. But you know I guess generally speaking until we know a little bit more about it I think it's a good thing and it seems like as long as they figure out I think that if you own ground in the state you know you really should be able to get a tag. I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

I I think Iowa's not that way. Right. If you own a hundred acres in Iowa you still have to draw an out a non-resident tag and I'm pretty sure you're right. I've always thought that's crazy to me. It does seem that way to me too like you tell me I paid hundreds of thousands for this piece of ground and I can't go shoot a deer on it every year.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Or just even if it's a very minimal amount you're still paying taxes on that piece of ground. So why shouldn't you at least be able to go harvest a deer on it? You know you still have to pay the non-resident price tag but hey at least um at least you have an opportunity to you know see something come back out of the out of the investment you made.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

That's right. So so yeah on that it it doesn't really specify but I would like to think that a non-resident landowner is still going to get their two tags.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah yeah I would I would think so um you know whether or not they limit that to to one I guess we'll see but sure at least at least in general I think you know going to a draw system probably makes more sense so uh I'd be curious to know how many non-resident hunters we get a year or how many permits are sold buck tags are sold and then how many they'd allow with a draw system.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Right. I'd want to know where they're gonna set that at.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

You know and this kind of gets into something else I want to talk about it's it's I guess you could say it's probably pretty related to the draw system because in most states you draw by region or unit right and so that kind of gets back to one of the things we mentioned earlier. I've you know just seeing what I see I tend to you know it's pretty obvious that northern parts of the states are heavily targeted. So what's I'd be curious to know how they're potentially going to manage that you know because obviously when you think about the Ozarks it's not a huge draw there's there's the deer quality there's not as many big deer down there but the quantity there's gobs of deer in the Ozarks so they still need to you know try and maintain population there but in the northern regions of the state there are areas where there's better deer but far fewer. And you know what are they maybe potentially going to do on on units or or regions I'd be it'd be curious to know if they're gonna do something like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I would think with a draw system they would have to implement some type of unit. If you're not familiar state of Missouri it's very different from the north end to the south end. Yeah it just the Ozark region is way different like you said um even the like far north part of Missouri is a lot different than right here.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah northwest Missouri is um I've got a friend of mine that you know has done a little bit of hunting up there and I know a couple people from up there and you know it's it's a lot more like parts of Iowa or Kansas where it's predominant predominantly egg and not very many deer per square mile.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

So they'd have they'd have to manage those areas to I think that they should um and especially when it comes to an influx of people coming in every year I think it might be more productive just and this is just me thinking about the management perspective and you know killing fewer antlered bucks is going to usually help promote better age structure, more maturity. If we're doing it maybe on a regional or unit basis, I think it maybe makes sense to do it that way because then you're spreading out some of that non-resident pressure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Absolutely I I think that or at least the guys that don't own property you know I think that implementing the draw system and splitting the state up into units that they can manage them on a smaller scale that's where the increase in age structure, buck size, maybe even dear numbers I think that's the question or that's the new regulation that's gonna affect that in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah and I I I'm guessing that's where they're you know I think that's where they're headed I in which I think it'll be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Look at look at Kansas and Iowa and Illinois all big buck states. Right. I don't know where do you rank those in big buck states? Well in those in add Missouri in there. Missouri these four states in midwest in the Midwest. Well Iowa's number one right it I guess it depends.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

As a non-resident maybe not because you can't hardly get a tag there right I don't know I I've lived in Iowa. Okay so I think Iowa is a special state because they're capable of growing such big deer but I think a big part of the reason why they're capable of growing those big deer is because really well I've lived in the cent east central period or part of the state northern part of the state there's big deer every once in a while but there's not a lot of deer in general. Like there's up there it's let's drive the one draw on our place and try and you know right the farmers don't like them so let's kill all of them. Right. You know and they still kill big deer but I think it's because there's fewer deer per square mile a lot less social stress you know those there's pockets up in the northern regions where there's none at all but then there's pockets of habitat and they still get big deer whereas the southern part it's mostly I mean there's a crazy amount of people up there or in the southern part of Iowa that own deer hunting land exclusively for nothing but it. Yeah I mean look at any one of the big names and how many hundreds or thousands of acres they have I think there's certain areas of that state that are just better because it's so well known it's managed to be better. And and the barrier to get in and get a tag is so much more difficult. So yeah it has an advantage but when you're thinking about you know where do I want to maybe buy a farm if I'm from out of state well some of the other states have better advantages than just as good a deer so I don't know they're all three better than Missouri. You think so? Kansas Iowa and Illinois have bigger deer I mean I go to that Quest Huntco bank every yeah that's a good that's a good scale it's a small amount of you know data you know a few big relative to how many deer are getting killed yes and so you can kind of see you know usually the some of the best deer in the state for the people who sign up are going to bring them there obviously and those states kick Missouri to ass every year. I mean there's still some good deer from Missouri don't get me wrong but uh I'd say on average you know the just in that small pool of deer being brought in the number of 200 plus inch deer being brought from those three states versus Missouri really it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

That's interesting. That's a good way to look at it too I I never really thought about that as a that's a great gauge to right because because Quest hunt I mean you're talking about some serious whitetail hunters. That's what it is you it's a pretty steep entry fee to get in this contest. You're then traveling to another state if you're an out of state or down in Missouri to go to this banquet for the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Um so that it would be a good comparison to I mean it's it's just kind of a small look at what the you know some of the better Or or I won't say better hunters, but just guys who are really serious about it. It's a good look at what they're killing and they blow us out of the water. And even Kentucky is got some really great deer. Ohio kills some some giants. Of course, I think they're a one buck state. Okay. Um, so I think that probably helps them a little bit. You know, even some of these states where you can bait and do all that nonsense. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of just going and dumping corn personally, but but uh you know, the one buck thing makes it in Kansas is that way. So I think Kansas maybe got a slight edge on Iowa in certain areas because that state, you know, mainly the eastern half is all relatively a pretty good mix of tillable and right creek, you know, bottoms and in habitat, and there's they're killing a lot of big deer in Kansas.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

But North Missouri has that too. And we do have a good mix, like we do. They have we have the right recipe. Like if you compare the good parts of Iowa or Pike County, Illinois. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

We're right in line with all of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Yeah, it's very similar. It's not the exact same, but it's very similar. I mean, you can't drive a mile and not see a uh ag field around here and and also big timber. They've got everything.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

We've got what we need. I think yeah, I think it's just uh a matter of managing the the managing herd a little bit different. Uh I think you know, try and promote the age of bucks, but also we still need to we still need to make sure that we kill them plenty of does. So that may be another part of it that I think could be a little bit done a little bit more effectively. I don't know. That's kind of off topic, but um I may pick your brain on that later. We don't have to do it on here, but I just think that you know this as a white tail as a white tail management guy, there's a fine line between you know quantity and quality. And sometimes with quantity, you sacrifice quality. And um, you know, if there's we have the landscape, we have the habitat. I think it just if we can manage it a little differently, we can still we can have we can have great deer. We can have just as good as some of those states.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

But uh you know, I just don't think we're accomplishing it because of the structure of some of our seasons and you know so yeah, I think that MDC is looking at making these changes to align us better with those those states that surround us, yeah, and and increase our age structure, increase the quality of deer. And honestly, you know, everyone always like always said, Oh, they won't change it, they like that non-resident money coming in. And so I I'm curious, like, what do you think the driver is for them to want to change it? Obviously, like we're speaking and saying we want bigger deer, but is there a financial impact for them to sell less tags? You know, if they're gonna be selling less tags.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

I wish I knew more about that end of it. And I think everybody there's a lot to that. I think that's where the public that that's where some of the disconnect comes comes in because a lot of times the public doesn't feel like we're being really included in the plan, right? You know, whatever the plan is.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Right. The plan's for us, but we don't get we don't get included.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

But what is that plan, you know, and what's what's their ultimate objective? I mean, in today's society, it's it's always so hard to tell because there's there's just you know a lot of misinformation. And you know, sometimes you hear and you see people saying things about the department that maybe aren't true. Sometimes you hear things that maybe are true, and so it's really hard for people to know. I guess I wish you know we we we kind of knew a little bit more about where it was going, but at least this is you know, it's it's progress. And um I think that our state has so much potential. Right. You know, we just it's it's and management on any end, whether you're going out and you know, just taking a piece of property and trying to make it better, whatever you're doing, it's gonna take time. So the fact that this may take a while, but if we can I'd love to see our state producing a lot more giants by the time I'm you know 40, 50 years old because 10, 15, 20 years from now, I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

It's gonna take if we make some but progress, sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

If they can kind of fine-tune it and figure out, hey, how do we still kill plenty of deer? Because our state really, if left unchecked, it would just be I mean, there's so many deer. So we we've still got to take deer, but how can we also promote better deer?

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Do you ever think what would happen if they just like no deer hunting for a year?

SPEAKER_01 48:51

I mean, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

How many giants would there be the next year? How many big deer would not giants, but there would be a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

There would be so many more. Because I mean, how many of those deer that are three and four year olds that can just blow up? How many how many more of those would make it?

SPEAKER_02 49:07

You know, um so many of those deer with the potential get killed. And and it's not that it's non-residents, it's everybody.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

So many people need a year.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

And what's frustrating is you can't some people you can't talk it into them. You can't say, hey, don't shoot a buck this year, and you'll have a chance at a bigger buck next year. Like it they're like, nope, he's big enough, good enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Hey, and that's that's everybody. Yeah, you're right. You know, everybody gets it, it's their own thing. Hunt how you want to do it, but yeah, across the board, if if we I think if we had a little better structure, it it would probably greatly improve it for everybody. Right. Um, I know one of the things, and I don't know how much you want to dive into the way our seasons are, but that that hurts us too. I mean, that's where I'm not afraid to be a little bit of a critic, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

And people would get so mad.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

I hate to throw like the department under the bus completely because I don't see what they deal with on their end of things very well.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

But and let's let's remind everybody, we don't know what goes on. I don't, yeah, this is our opinion.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

I don't know all the the things that they're taking into consideration when they're structuring our seasons, you know. Um, but just from a whitetail manager and a deer hunter's perspective, man, if we could if if we could remove, because we're talking about how many of those young young deer come walking by that get killed every year, that have so much potential, if we could remove the rifle season from the middle of the rut, where, and you also have to think about it, you've probably hunted deer long enough to know that if you're you know, depending on where your property is, and depending on the you know, landscape, certain deer are gonna do certain things during that time of the year that don't make any sense. Absolutely. They're gonna live somewhere, or they're not necessarily gonna be even focused on where they're living, they're just gonna be focused on does. Yeah, so they're gonna go to where does are and they're gonna continue to just look for does. And then once that's done, they go back to their home, core range, they set up shop, and then they make through the winter. Well, how many deer does a guy work so hard to hold on his property that during the rut, you know, it does no good, they're traveling miles. Yeah, so those deer have the opportunity to kind of live somewhere where they're safe, and then let's just inject, you know, how many ever hundred thousand hunters out there? And then for the and then let's just let them put a rifle in their hands and then for 10 days, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

And then if you're in a CWD zone, it's another five days or another seven days, I forget what it is. You know, just it's so much time for that deer to stroll by a deer stand with a rifle hunter in it.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

And and I mean, hey, I'm I killed one with a rifle this year too, so I'm not knocking anybody for doing it. I'm just saying that like if if it was more difficult to kill those mature deer during that time of the year, it would be a little more rewarding to the people who are really putting in the effort to you know do habitat improvements, increase the age class too. And it would. And and I also think about it from this perspective too. And I don't know if there's any correlation, but I'd have to say there's got to be. When we talk about diseases, you know, CWD, EHD, all these different diseases that are out there, I think it's important that the most healthy, mature, and dominant bucks are doing the breeding. My that's my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Um almost from like a genetic standpoint. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

I think that genetically, and I really see this at that quest hunt. Genetically speaking, the and maybe it's just a difference in maturity, but genetically, gosh, some of these other states are just far superior. And I don't know, maybe there's not much of a correlation there, maybe there is, but I'd have to say on my on some of the farms I hunt, I see this directly that the average 140-inch three-year-old buck is always going to get killed during gun season. Always. Because he's gonna be out, he's not gonna be very dominant, he's gonna be out looking for does because he's gonna usually be kicked off by a maybe a little bit older gun. The three-year-old runs a lot, and he's gonna have to cover more ground to find a dough. Well, naturally, that's gonna make him more susceptible to being to being killed, right? But then you end up with some of these more inferior mature bucks that are getting passed because they eh, you know, I don't want to kill that 120-inch eight-pointer or whatever. You know, there's probably more people out there willing to pass that deer, but you still end up with some of those. I mean, I've got pictures of deer that are, you know, maybe not even gonna ever be 140 inches. Right. Or maybe not even, I've gotten pictures of six-pointers in the past that are very mature, never gonna, yeah, very mature, but never gonna amount to anything. And um, you know, the problem is is that a lot of those deer end up getting passed by default because people are like, I can hold out a little bit longer and kill one of those better ones. And most of the time those better ones are gonna be, you know, a nice three-year-old buck. Sure. And there's nothing wrong with that. If that's what you want to kill, go for it. But if you ever really want to kill a big one, you're gonna have to probably kill a four, five, six, seven-year-old deer. Right. You know, it I'd I'd say five to five to seven is kind of the golden years, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

And let me reel you back. You kind of got off track on your topic, yeah, on your thought. No, I was kind of like, you had a good point coming was the biggest, best bucks need to do the breeding, but we're killing them before they get the chance to. We're killing them during the rip.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

I feel like you're your genetically superior deer, not every deer that's you know, gonna win the fight is gonna be the bigger rack. Sure, but we still want the more dominant bucks to breed because if you think about it from the you know, the whole idea of I guess the the dar Darwinism idea, you know, strongest will survive, strongest will breed. Why wouldn't we want our strongest, most dominant bucks passing on their genetics first? Right. Instead, right in the middle of the rut, or real literally at the peak. I would say, how many, how many do you think probably come out of just that first weekend? Oh, I would say big bucks. Out of out of deer that are four plus years old, gotta be half, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Yeah, I was gonna say 50% get killed.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Yeah, right off the bat. So and and maybe that's different in certain areas.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

It is, but um, and we're talking about the area that we're in, north central Missouri.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

In in this area, I would say it's probably half. And so right there, you've just eliminated half of more of your mature bucks. So surely there's got to be some correlation between some of the more dominant deer, if they're being taken out, we're not having them doing the breeding. There's gotta be some kind of correlation to to what that does for us uh genetically. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Another thing that I think is wrong with the season, and this will make a lot of people mad, but this is my opinion. I'm all for youth hunting. I love getting kids out there. I've always been a youth hunter. I killed my first buck when I was six, and I think I killed a buck every year after that, until I was like in high school. I think I went a year without killing one. But that youth season is timed perfectly to kill big bucks.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Oh, it is, and I I utilized it too.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and who wouldn't? Yeah, it's your two-day opportunity to get out there, but Iowa has like an early, like October one, I think, is it first week of October's their youth season. And a seven-year-old kid doesn't care if he shoots a six-pointer or a hundred and seventy-inch big mature buck. And yeah, you can have a different opinion. You can have a different opinion. I'm I'm not it's like a perfectly timed season to take us backwards on letting big deer go.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Well, you're yeah, from that I see what you're saying, and they and you're not wrong. I think I agree with you for sure on that.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

Um it's a touch touching subject. It's kids. It is good for them.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I want to see the kids, you know, get out there and and and do well because I was a kid once too. Oh, absolutely. So I do agree with what you're saying. I don't know, you know, I guess I always kind of figure, well, I guess, you know, kids are gonna have the have they're gonna have the best shot to kill that one right there at the end of October.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

I was but I I was as a youth hunter, I think that I was lucky. My first year was a spike, and like the next year was a four-pointer, and then a six-pointer, and like I slowly progressed. I didn't kill a deer in the 140s until I was in high school. Yeah, I would have to say that's or maybe probably maybe my first year or two after high school, actually. I just had a good progression of right bigger and bigger every year, and you know, I I maybe it's envy, maybe I don't know. These like when a little kid goes and shoots a giant. Yeah, it's just I say, like, man, he's ruined, and maybe he's not.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Well, yeah, I know what you're saying. Because I would agree.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

When you're a 10-year-old and you shoot 170-inch deer, like, man, it could be the rest of your life. You may never kill another one that big.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

That's that's very true.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

I mean it's just it's more likely to happen too.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

It's definitely more likely to happen with that season, just because most of us who do this regularly and are trying to kill one of the most mature deer in the area, no matter where you're hunting, if it's if it's a five, six, seven, eight, whatever year old deer, they don't just get up and walk around daylight.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Like when new season, I'm hunting, I'm bow hunting all day, both days.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Usually, yeah, I was gonna say, usually that's like one of your best chances to to to catch a big buck out on his feet for the first time, maybe in the month of October, right? Or at least on a day that you could go or or plan vacation to go, you're gonna be planning it right around the same time. So yeah, it's it's a little bit of an unfair advantage that the youth have.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Uh but also at the same time, good for them. But also, yeah, I want to see them be successful. I'm not saying that. I just think like if you're having the conversation of maybe Missouri rifle season needs to be adjusted one way or the other. I I can see that. I think youth season that's in the bill. You gotta talk that as well. Yeah. Talk about that as well. Just my thought.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with you, especially from that perspective. Obviously, the season runs from September to January, you know. Uh people are gonna have the opportunities to kill those deer all throughout the year. But sometimes when it comes to mature deer, there's a fine line of when you're gonna be able to be successful. And it's not because, you know, I've I know a lot of successful hunters who can't just go out there and always kill them on the first set. Oh, absolutely. You know, I know some guys that do all that. And I do I do know some guys that do, but you know, that's it's not but your average hunter, or even your slightly above average hunter, is not doing that. Yeah, I mean it's it's not always easy unless you just luck into them, you know. So usually you've got to have a plan and you've got to have history and you've got to know what's what he's gonna be doing, or or do some scouting and understand where he's at, what he's doing, to kill a deer early or during early October. So I guess I kind of feel like overall it would be nice to see the breeding cycle not, you know, the rifle head rifle hunting not so heavily injected into that time of the year. Um, I've often said, and this is just kind of going a little bit further into what I've always thought would be really nice, is uh give guys the early season, kind of do their thing. Um maybe you structure in some kind of uh I've always thought like maybe you could Iowa does this a little bit, and I think maybe even Illinois, but they they they sometimes can give guys an opportunity to go out in like a weekend muzzlader. Like a different but you have to choose that season individual seasons, yeah. And and and you may take if you choose that season, you may have to eliminate your opportunity to hunt at a different season. Right. So I could see where maybe you do something like that that would give guys an opportunity to go out when deer are on pattern and and try and target it with, you know, say a muzzlet or something. But then hey, maybe you have to forego your ability to hunt in with a rifle during the rut or whatever. Yeah, or or something like that. Um there's probably different ways that that that could be done, you know, or Kansas, for example, you know, they're they keep their season, I think the first weekend of December. It's usually right after the rut. And you know, that's that's getting late, but you know, it it I think it definitely makes an impact for them in a positive way. Sure, absolutely in most Iowa, Illinois, they seem to be structured pretty well the same way, right? And what's the biggest difference? They're killing a lot better deer, and it's really not that much different as far as where we're located in the Midwest.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

So also, I'll point out Iowa and Illinois are no center fire rifles, right? Right, no center fire. Which so like I went to college with a buddy from Illinois, and at the time I didn't realize that or didn't know that. Yeah, and uh, he didn't own any rifles. I'm like, what do you mean? Yeah, I don't I got shotguns. I'm like, yeah, you don't have a rifle? I was like, I got 10 of them. What do you mean you don't have a rifle? Yeah, they don't use them unless they're coyote hunting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Yeah, I think now maybe the only difference in Iowa is there's certain seasons you can use a straight wall case. Yeah, like uh but that's still popular.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

You're still your you know distance and you're limited, you're you're a little more limited. Sling lead 400 yards all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Yeah, I mean uh I know guys who have you know the compact dial systems and all that stuff, and it it takes a little to me. Uh I think it's if you make a shot at four or five hundred yards, well that's a hell of a shot. But it also does kind of take away a little, you know, it gives you the ultimate equal and it's it's the equalizer, it gives you the ultimate advantage. Sure. And sometimes that's all the difference is on some of these big mature deer, you know. But if you gotta play cat and mouse with them a little more, it it gives them a little bit of a chance to to sometimes beat you at the game. So to me, that's if if we level the play playing field just a little bit without sacrificing, you know, there's still got to be management of objectives hit where you're still getting the dear numbers and and keeping the population at a healthy population. Sure. You know, obviously certain areas like northwest Missouri, they probably they're probably hurting, they're probably down, right? You know, or certain areas of the city.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

They probably need to limit some non-resident tax, yeah, knock the numbers back a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

But then, like you said, certain parts of the like our area here, Randolph Macon, there can be in certain areas, depending on the property owners, you can end up with a a GABA deer. Yeah, you can see 50 deer at a night, and then maybe some properties, you know, that's when you start to get social stresses and negative impacts from having too many.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

So and that like that micromanagement almost has to come at a personal level or a landowner level, not necessarily MDC, but they have to be able to allow you to do that though as well. They can't say, Yep, you can only shoot two does. Well, I need to take 20 off this farm, you know, or whatever it may be. Just throw numbers out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

And in the past, they did a little bit after we had some of those EHD outbreaks, they definitely did limit by counting and and stuff on on antler. Which was needed. And I think that was I was impressed when they did that, you know. I thought it was a good thing, right? So I think as long as there's an intelligent approach, we can still accomplish killing some better deer.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

I've said this before about turkeys and it it goes with deer as well. You can't expect for MDC to make a regulation and stick with it forever. Right. Like the population is ever changing, hunter demand is changing. True, true. Like for sure. It needs to be able to fluctuate. Exactly. And I think a draw system like this with split units allows for that manage manageability on a smaller scale.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

I agree. And especially if they end up going to like a regional or a unit based system for for those non-residents, and um that's definitely gonna make a big impact. I I think and and maybe maybe it's not as big as we think it is, but it it it can't it can't hurt. It cannot hurt. It can't hurt. So I don't know, it's a it's a very interesting topic. Yep. So and nobody's gonna ever see eye to eye on all of it, but absolutely. Man, I I will stand, I will go to the hill to die on that says that if we just remove rifle season out of the middle of the rut, we'd have so much better deer.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

We would. You're right. And you'd get so many people mad at you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

Oh, yeah. You know what? And that's okay. I can and I've got customers of mine that would probably not agree with me on that, but it comes back to the general principle that people want to kill better deer. Right. So would you rather sacrifice that for the opportunity to kill better deer year in, year out? Right. The thing I don't think you have to make.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Um and I I agree with you. That would produce bigger deer. The hard part for people would be like changing their tradition. Changing tradition, yeah. I do we've gone every weekend to this camp, you know, for the case. But there's still gonna be an opening day. You're right. There's you know what I mean. They just have to get over it. Yeah, they'd shoot their first 160-inch deer and be like, oh, this is this is nice. Yeah. Maybe maybe because moving seasons-wise.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Right. Or or for the guy who's man, I saw that deer this summer and he disappeared, but oh, he came back and you know, disappeared during the rent, but then he came back. Oh, maybe I do kind of like this. Yeah. I can't believe he didn't get shot. Well, well, yeah, it wasn't as vulnerable. Right. And uh I don't know. I mean, me personally, that's that's the biggest. I'm I'm obviously targeting some better deer and mature deer in my area, but that's the problem with having them year in, year out, is they're just so vulnerable during that time of year. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

So those are the three main questions that we've talked about there. And just to give a super quick recap, one's talking about reducing the bag limit for non-resident deer hunter from two bucks to one for 2026. 2027, they're looking at a hundred and sixty-five dollar fee if you want to hunt public land as a non-resident, and then 2027 uh or beyond the 2027 deer season, they're looking at potentially a draw system for non-residents. Um, from then on the survey, it asks you if you hunt deer in Missouri. Are you a Missouri resident? Uh, I think that's about it. There's also some uh areas in there you can type out why you chose that or how you feel about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

And if you're anything like me, you're gonna have paragraphs.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah, I wrote quite a bit. Um, will they read it? Probably not. They'll probably use some AI to summarize like what most people say, you know, whatever it is. Um, because there'll be a lot of entries. But if you have an opinion, if you're a non-resident hunter that hunts Missouri every year, or if you've thought about hunting Missouri in the future, or if you're a resident that cares about the deer quality in Missouri, get on MDC's website. If you go to Kyoto Outdoors, I have shared the link on uh on my Facebook page. You can go through there, fill out the survey, express your opinion. It's got to be done by April 20th. That is the last day. So kind of cutting it close on time here. You got five days to do it, but uh get out there, fill it out, and express your opinion. Any other last thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

Yeah, I was just trying to think. I'm kind of hoping that I I tend to kind of ramble on some of these things. So hopefully what I've said's given some sort of good insight for people to come. I think so. I think it has to help with maybe what whatever they want to, you know, say on there. But I'll just kind of say that I think it's a step in the right direction, and and I've seen a lot of posts where people are are pleased to see that you know there's they've been speaking up. Um MDC has is taking some heat, and um it seems like they're responding and trying to do something to kind of give some sort of positive change to the residents and the people of the state. So you know, that's all we gotta do is just keep keep trying to influence um influence of the department to do things that we think is right and give them give them the kind of feedback they need to make decisions, and you know, if they do the opposite of what we're telling them, well then we can hold them accountable. I mean, they still work for us. So right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

Another thing that I'd like to add is you gotta give them the benefit of the doubt. Yes, yes, they're still trying to do the right things. There's lots of people there that are working on this, they've got biologists, they've got numbers, people, they got everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

I know a lot of these people too. So they're doing their best. They're trying to do their job. And they a lot of these guys that are on a county by county basis, they don't always have, you know, they don't have the pull. They're just trying to, they're trying to do what you know the state is deciding, and they're trying to to enforce our regulations and and and do the right things. So it's not uh I don't want to demonize anybody. Right. You know, I think our department just has there's a lot that they have to do. Um and it's never gonna be easy on a with a state that's very diverse like ours. Right. So hopefully, you know, the feedback we're giving them will will kind of help for down the road. Right. So that's I guess that'd be my last thought on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

Right. Okay. Well, I think that was a good conversation. I think we covered that that pretty well. Yeah, yeah, I think so. What about turkeys? As we're recording this, it's April 14th. And yeah. Just just off a hot youth weekend, do you get to go out with anybody?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

Or no, I actually had a um, you know, couple buddies that uh one of them's getting married and had to go on a little bachelor party. Oh, that's right. So yeah, so I want to make sure I was there to be a part of that. But uh yeah, it's this time of year is tough sometimes. I like to try and get out a couple mornings, but you know, when it's when things are good to work, I've got to be busy and on top of weather's good, getting ready for planning and you know, still wrapping up a burn or two and a few other projects, but I do plan on getting out there. I'm I've kind of got uh I'm kind of wanting to kill them with my bow this spring. Just that's a challenge. You know, uh I've killed turkeys with my bow before, but never a spring gobbler. So I think that'd be kind of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

It'd be cool. I've so I've not been brave enough to try it yet. Uh I guess. Go on a guillotine, or are you gonna shoot like a um two-blade expandable or something?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

I'll probably shoot uh I I don't know. Some people are probably gonna say that I'm an idiot for shooting these, but I like them. Uh Spitfire Max is what I typically shoot. Spitfires. I'm not even I'm not familiar with that. NAP. Okay. Um, and then I'll um when it comes to turkeys, I've also used the uh dead ringers. It's like a big two blade, and those things are pretty devastating on a turkey. Yeah. Um, so but as long as you place the shot right, right. That's the main thing on a turkey, is just take your time. If you've got them working the decoys, you got all day. Just make just try and wait until you get a good shot. And um, fortunately for me, I've I've had I've had the opportunity to kill quite a few in the fall over the years, so I'm pretty confident as long as I can get one to decoy, I think it'll be you know, they should decoy fine. Yeah, I think it'll be pretty easy. I mean, my problem is gonna be whether I can stay out the whole day or not, or whether I gotta get to work. But um turkeys, I mean, I love killing turkeys, it's fun. But if you don't, you're if I don't, it's you know, if I don't that day, I'll I'll get another one. Sure, I'll have an opportunity to go again. So it's uh it's something I look forward to every year, but um also gotta make sure I pay the bills and keep people happy. So absolutely. So I'll be doing be doing that as well. But uh yeah, if you've been out racing any birds or anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

I've been hearing some uh you season was pretty chaotic. We had four gobblers in the food plot, was this all at once, basically?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

Yeah, so you did you did take some.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:50

Yeah, yeah. Took my nephew, my dad, and he and I went and the fourth gobbler we could finally got shot. Like it was chaotic. Yeah, and then two come back and like flog the flopping bird, you know, which I'd actually never seen on video. I'd never seen it in real in real life.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:06

I've only seen that once or twice.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:07

You usually get up and chase after the bird and run out there. You don't give them an opportunity, and and this time we were in a pop-up tent, so we just sit and watch the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:16

Sounds like a great hunt. I whoever you know, F you have to his first turkey or no, he's killed two or three, but he's hooked. But he's hooked. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That fuels the fire.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:25

This bird gobbled at 26 yards five seconds before he shot it. I guess just it was perfect hunt.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

That's what I do love about turkey hunting is the interactive part of it. You know, it's just that that part's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:37

I always say people are like, What do you like more, turkey hunting or deer hunting? Well, I'd rather shoot a big buck, but your average turkey hunt is way more fun than your average deer hunt.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

Yeah, I've don't know how many times over the years, you know, you're just sitting there and you're just waiting, like, okay, is it getting closer? And then all of a sudden, bam. And that's when it gets fun. You know, it gets really exciting. Your heart rate increases, and yeah, I love it. Yeah, and especially I like you know, turkey hunting, going with going with buddies, going with dad.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

It's a good go with your buddy sport. Deer hunting's not not really like that so much. I mean, you I know you go with your dad a lot, but yeah, but you don't just grab a buddy or two to be like, let's go deer hunting. It's it's not really like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:17

It's a little different. There's definitely, you know what I mean, it's the whole things that we just talked about, a lot of that stuff comes into play, you know. So you definitely, if if you're taking your buddies, um they've you know, if you're one of those guys that's being taken by somebody else, that friend really likes you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Yeah, especially if they're like I'm hesitant to take people turkey on. Like I mean my buddy are talking about going out anymore. I'm like, all right, where are we going? Like we're going to your spot because I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:45

I want you here shooting my turkey. Well, and you know, going back to the subject of management, one of the things I think would be really cool is you know, we're talking about some of the ways that they could change prices on tags or or uh, you know, even even a habitat stamp or or some of the things that they're gonna maybe planning to do with these these pub like the$165 to to hunt public if you're a non-resident. It would be great to see some of that money go more funding towards privately land conservation where we can do better things for for turkey habitat.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:21

Absolutely because like through those government programs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

That would be great to see because there's just you know, that is one species that I feel has taken a huge dive over the last years, and it's kind of gone up, it's kind of gone down. I feel like we're on an up right now with turkeys. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

But I mean compared to maybe 10 years ago, I think. Compared to doing better.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:41

When I started hunting in I think my first year of turkey hunting was I want to say it was the spring of 2000. I mean, things were rocking and rolling back. Absolutely. Turkeys were incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

That was the time to be a turkey hunter, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

I mean, it was more like those videos you see when guys are going out to Kansas, Nebraska, and there's 10, 12 birds in a field or something. You know, we had a a lot bigger flocks, I feel like, back then. Right. But it would be it would be nice to see, you know, maybe if hey, maybe if some of this extra income, extra revenue went towards doing some more things to kind of help our turkey herd or habitat in general. Habitat, yeah, habitat in general. And my gosh, if they could put like a bounty on raccoons. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:28

I'd love to see that would dollar bounty on raccoon tails.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

Yeah, I think that would make a big impact.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

Yeah, good use of good use of government money.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:36

Yeah, something, um, those I think are a huge problem. But yeah, that's a they have increased the the season. Yeah, they definitely have. So that's a good thing that they've done that. Right. And uh, you know, that that part of it, you know, they're again they're trying to do some of the right things, and it's just gonna take time. But uh yeah, when it comes to those, when it comes to that extra revenue, it'd be cool to to see some of that used to we could have maybe have a little expedited response time. Sure, absolutely if we were able to do some stuff like that. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:10

Something you can more tangible. I would see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

Yeah, I mean, turkey hunting is so fun, I'd love to see more birds around.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:15

Absolutely. Like I hear my dad saying, you know, well, yeah, 30 years ago you couldn't drive by a greenfield not see a Tom in it. And like you, yeah. I I've been running the back roads quite a bit here in the last few weeks, and you you really don't see that many birds. I mean, I do see some, but not as many as I feel like I should or could.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Yeah, I wish we were in a position to be talking about increasing the tag limit rather than limiting it. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

So that's just how crazy would it be to be at a spot where we could consider shooting three birds a year instead of two? That would be insane. We'll probably never get there, but probably not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

But uh, you know, a lot of that also comes down to agriculture too. I mean, sure. With my background in that, you know, obviously there's always a very high demand to plant more and more acres every year and wipe out fence rows. And we could get into a whole nother subject about agriculture and why farmers have to plant thousands and thousands of acres to make any money, but uh, you know, that's a different subject for a different time. But it'd be nice to it'd be, you know, if they can make a positive impact and in, you know, maybe fund a little more of these uh habitat enhancements improvements you know at the state level, I think that would be great. You know, there's obviously plenty of opportunities um federally through equip and things like that. And I would challenge everybody out there if you're if you've got some private ground, um, go talk to somebody at USDA or go talk to a private land conservationist and see what can I do? Because a lot of times you can do some certain things just as simple as burn plans, um, you know, or TSI, it's things that are you know, a little bit of sweat and you know, sweat equity.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

Something that should probably be done anyway. Yeah, and you get a little bit of funds for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:06

Absolutely. And you know, those types of things can help tremendously, especially you know, especially for turkeys. I think turkeys respond really well to prescribed burns.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

Quickly too. Like the next year you could see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

Yeah. Like I've noticed in in some of the prescribed burns I do in timber in forestry. Um boy, they really love that because it's great brood habitat. Right. Um, and then it also offsets there's a lot of we've got a lot of invasives that are becoming a huge problem. And it's it's a problem for turkeys as well. You know, you take a I don't know if you've ever just tried to walk through one of those bush honeysuckle patches.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:44

Oh, miserable.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:45

It's yeah, and and that's not very good for brood habitat because if you've got a bobcat chasing uh, you know, flock of young flock of little polts down through there, they're just sitting ducks if they can't get away. So there's definitely things like that, I think. Um, you know, if anybody's made it this far watching this, right? You know, if I haven't bored everybody to death, I think that's something I would challenge you to do is there's there's money on the table for that. So go go out there and try and see what see what you can do.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:18

What I like about turkeys and doing habitat work that benefits turkeys is literally if you save one nest, yeah, you're talking 10 or 12 more birds on your property the next year. Right. Or in your area the next year, like very quickly can your work definitely compound fast. Quickly see the benefits of that and reap the benefits of that so quickly. So yeah, and so get out there and do that. Do your research.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

Yep, do go out there, talk to talk to USDA, talk to some of the private land conservationists, and you'd probably be surprised at you know what kind of funds are out there for that stuff, and it's gonna help everybody if everybody gets on board. So and if there's not enough money, you know, if we go through all those funds, then there's incentive to do things to raise more, right? You know, so and I bet you that if you asked the conservation, they would probably say the same thing. Yeah, you know, we want to see more people doing this type of stuff. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

All right, man. Well, I appreciate having you on. Yeah, certainly a wealth of knowledge on this topic, and glad I reached out to you because that was a good conversation, and just good to make people aware of what's going on with with the current status of deer hunting in Missouri.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:32

So yeah, we can always uh get together and talk a little bit more about stuff like food plots and all that, and oh yeah, we'll do that, especially during those times of year when uh people start thinking about it and right, absolutely, or or whatever other topics, you know. I like talking deer hunting too.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Absolutely, man. Well, if you're still listening, we appreciate you being here still. And go ahead and like, follow us on whatever, and we'll see you next time.