Life After the Badge

In this episode of Operation Next Chapter, we sit down with a retired law enforcement officer to talk about the reality of life after a career built on structure, responsibility, and accountability.

This isn’t about war stories or nostalgia.

It’s about what carries over — and what doesn’t.

We talk about the shift from external structure to self-leadership, what discipline looks like in everyday life, and where a lot of men struggle when the expectations aren’t clearly defined anymore.

Because whether it’s the military, law enforcement, or any structured profession — at some point, the uniform comes off.

And what’s left is the man.

In this conversation, we break down:

•  What surprised him most after leaving law enforcement 
•  How his definition of leadership changed over time 
•  What discipline looks like without external accountability 
•  Leadership at home and in everyday life 
•  Why no one is coming — and why that matters 

This episode is a real look at leadership without the uniform.

Not loud. Not performative.
 Just honest, practical, and grounded.

If you’re in a season where structure has changed — or you’re trying to build your next chapter with intention — this conversation will hit.

OperationNextChapter@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Alright, so we're live and recording.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Good to see you, Cole. What's you do? Not much, man. Doing this episode is gonna be really cool. I we have the pleasure of having uh Kurt, my brother-in-law, uh here on this episode. Uh he's gonna bring a little bit different perspective, I think. Uh Kurt is a retired police officer, served 25 years uh as a cop in the Columbus, Ohio area. And uh lots of different experiences, lots of different things, uh lots of different life lessons. Um, and we're gonna, I'm excited to hear A, just have him here and have him visiting, him and his wife uh visiting with us, but also to have him here on the podcast to, you know, share in the fun and and and talk from give some some stuff and you know, so give us some stuff from a different perspective, if you will. You and I have been talking from the veteran perspective, and we say it carries over and it doesn't matter. Um I'm interested to see how this goes and and that it really doesn't matter in you know and what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah, and going back to the core of this season is leadership without the uniform, right? And I know you mentioned Kurt's retired, and we're gonna look at um his perspective, what it looks like in real life when you know the structure changes, police, military, a very similar structure. And yeah, let's uh let's get him on and pick his brain.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

All right, Kurt. Hey, hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks, uh, Cole and Mark for inviting me here. I'm really excited to do this. Um hopefully I can bring some a different perspective insight to uh what you guys have done. I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts, and you have great ideas, and hopefully uh just having a little bit of outsider look into it. Um, because really uh being a uniformed police officer for 25 years, there's a lot of overlap as far as what you guys have gone through when you retired, what we go through when we retire. So one day you're uh you know, you got a badge, you're carrying a gun, and the next day that's taken away, and and the brotherhood and stuff is kind of uh at a distance instead of right there all the time. So yeah, I'm open to answer any questions and I'm actually looking forward to it, and and let's get this thing rolling.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

So Cole kind of gave a little rundown on your uh career. Maybe give like the one-minute version just so people can get an idea of what your career looked like from beginning to end, you know, kind of like we were talking about before we started.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, I I started in 1997. Um I was with the State Highway Patrol in Ohio for about four years, and I went to Westerville, which is a suburb of Columbus. Um, it's the northeast part of Columbus uh suburb, the biggest suburb in uh central Ohio right now. Uh I did 21 years there. My career, I worked patrol the entire time. I was a field training officer for like 18 years, uh, did some accident investigation, uh, was on the honor guard, uh, but my bread and butter was field training. I really enjoyed taking young officers and getting them up to speed uh on you know more information, more leadership, and what we expect of them and and just guiding them. We have a about a 70-man department, and uh at last count there was about 35 officers that I actually trained that are still working with Westerville. So, you know, all the way down from assistant chief to patrol. So that I have a huge influence on the the culture and stuff of the city, the the police department, maybe a little bit. They do the work, they do all the hard stuff, but you know, leadership goes hand in hand. You have to show them what it means to be a leader, you have to show them what's expected. And you know, were there some officers that I trained that didn't pan out? Absolutely. It's it's not an easy job, it's a fun job. I am very proud of my service, very proud of what I did, but uh sometimes it just doesn't work out. But the one the times that it does, and you see somebody you took a uh hand in and developing them and teaching them and you see how successful they become, it's it's almost like a proud parent for sure moment for for you when you start seeing the people you've trained get promoted or get that specialty position that they've always wanted. So yeah, I'm it's it's very I can see where this will uh go hand in hand with what you guys have been talking to the last few sessions.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Let me see if I heard you correctly. Did you say you have a 70-man department and 35 half of those guys or and gals you train that are still there?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

I'm just making sure that's what I heard. Yes. That's that's pretty cool. That's that's some legacy you left there, you know? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

And all the way from assistant chief down to a patrol officer.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Detectives, there, SROs, um, name it, K9 officer, SWAT guys, all those guys are at some point was in my car and I was helping them.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

So at the time, did you think about leadership in the way you do now? Like, did you see yourself as a leader with doing all that training?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

It when I first started, I actually interviewed for the position of field training officer is to get experience. I wasn't even expecting to get it because I was only at Westerville a couple years, but they took in my prior experience with the patrol uh and they gave it to me. So I would say at first I didn't look at it as strongly as I do now. Um, since I've retired, I actually teach the state FTO course through Kent State University. So I'm actually training FTOs now at the next level. But it really kind of hits home, you know. I always try to carry myself and be uh an example and lead through lead through work and not just by what I say. You know, if if if I'm not willing to go out and make the stops and take the calls and do the extra work, then how can I expect my people to do it? So that's how I kind of looked at it to start with, and it just built over time. But uh I took a a lot of pride in setting them up so I I don't know everything, and there's no way in a six or eight week period that I can teach everything that a young officer needs to know. But what I can teach them is where can they go to get the answers? You know, instead of instead of just throwing their hands up and say, I don't know, what step can they take? You know, go to a senior officer for questions. Here's your your rules and regs, here's the policy, here's the the the ORC, the laws of Ohio. Do your research and work and don't just sit back and let life happen. You need to go out and get it.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

You still don't know everything?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I still don't know everything.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And he's older than us. I am.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

You look like you know everything. I'm I'm questioning you, Kurt.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah, well, yes. That that's a persona you gotta give sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

You said something else too that made me think about it, but you said they gave it to me. I would disagree. You earned it. That might be your humbleness.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

But they saw something in you that maybe you didn't see in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

That that is true because I've I've always been one, uh, and even my wife, my wife and I have been married 32 years. We have two kids, a a daughter, adult daughter. In your last session, you talked about uh training and leading uh adult kids. So we're in that same boat, like with Cole and Mark. But um leadership sometimes is just how you carry yourself. You can be a leader and not even realize that you're leading other people, other men and women in your your profession. Um I I remember a story, we were doing an in-service class, and and the instructor was a young officer, and uh I had one uh an a guy that I trained come up to me, he goes, Why am I listening to him? He's been here for two years and he's teaching in his class. He goes, Why aren't you teaching it? You know, and I was like, Well, one, he didn't ask me, but two, you know, I tried to he was a good teacher and stuff. I I really tried to I didn't want to be negative for the instructor, but he had a point, you know. What he was teaching was teaching out of a book, where you get somebody with experience or street time, they're going to teach from experience, and how you carry yourself with that experience is how you become a leader.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Yeah, that's a great point that sometimes the book answer isn't always the right answer. Correct. Yeah. So let's get to the meat potatoes of life after the uniform. What surprised you the most when you took the uniform off and started a new chapter in life?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Well, I've like I talked to Cole about this. I struggled when I retired uh pretty hard. Um, and the reason was, you know, one day you're you have all this responsibility, I mean you you're you're doing this, you've trained for years, you're doing what you like to do, and then all of a sudden that's just gone. And um, you know, I struggled with uh trying to fill that that void of what I had the the day before throughout retirement. You know, you had the camaraderie of your brotherhood, the you know, we would had a locker room, locker room talk and just hanging out. And plus I found that I had a hard time finding people to relate to. You know, I could go to work and if we had a bad call or something, I knew somebody there dealt with that or they would understand where a lot of times in the, you know, we call them civilians of people that aren't in uniform, a lot of times they don't understand that aspect. They don't understand that, you know, one minute I'm giving CPR to a guy on the side of a road and he dies, and the next minute I'm at a guy's house because his neighbor's dog took a poop in his yard.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

You know, and a lot of times I just want to be like, do you understand what I just saw? I just saw a man die in front of me. His fiance was right there, and I had to deal with that, and now you're bothering me with this. But being professional and stuff, you had to deal with it, so you had to bury that. So there was really no outlet once. And then honestly, um, as I was working and and the the struggle I faced was all those demons from the past 25 years kept poking her head up. You know, the dreams got worse, the sleeplessness got worse, the isolation got worse. Um I had I struggled with with alcohol. Um until the point where I just finally made a decision. This isn't me, I don't like it, so I'm gonna change it. Like you guys have said before, you gotta just make the decision and go.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Sounds like some of our previous conversations and other episodes, Cole, where just like the military, it was a little identity shift.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Loss of structure, loss of daily routine. Yes. And finding yourself again in the next slide, the next chapter.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, I mean you do you go 25 years. I did probably 20 of my years working second shift, you know, 3 to 11, 2 to 10. Um, so you had a routine, you know. I would get up, I would do the stuff I needed to do at home. We actually homeschooled our kids. We would sit down, have our family lunch, I'd go to work. Um and it was just easy. And then once that was gone, there was no structure. There was no there was no reason for me to get up and go get and get things going. I had the entire day to do stuff. Well, what that entire day turned into was I didn't get anything done. I I you know, I had this big plans of doing this and that, but I just sat around and did nothing. And my fault was I felt like I earned it. I felt like I earned, well, I don't want to do anything today. I just spent 25 years dealing with the dregs of society. I had a I can take a day and do nothing. I can take a week and do nothing, I can take a month and do nothing. Well, when does that stop? You know, it it at some point you gotta get a purpose.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Purpose. We have had that conversation multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

No doubt, man. It's it's funny. And obviously, Kurt and I have talked about this, so I know you know some of the backstory and some of the things he's talking about, and it's still interesting, you know, you mentioned we call them civilians. So do we.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Right? Those that haven't served, they're civilians. And and if you're civilian, I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But you mentioned the mindset and the brotherhood and the locker room talks and the difficult call. And, you know, if you get a difficult call and you come off that call, I can I see it on the road, you know, not a lot, but I, you know, you'll see two cruisers that are sitting so that you're door to door facing out the direction so that you guys can have those decompression talks and those talks of somebody who just went through the same thing with you. Well, that's no different than what we did out on the flight line or what we did as first sergeants in the military. We had that camaraderie, we had those people that we just knew we could go to their office, or, or in this case, your case, you know, put the cruiser doors together so that you can have those those serious talks to, and I know in the military, sometimes it was a little bit of a sick or a dark sense of humor that got us through that. You had that one day, you took your badge and your gun off and your uniform off, and now you're sitting at the house. Yes, and there's nobody to park door to door with to have those conversations. For us, we took those uniforms off and we walked home, and and again, nothing. I'm not there's nothing wrong with the family or anything else, but the feeling of now what?

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, like a little feeling of loss. Yeah, right. And I wanted to hit on something else you said, Kurt. For those about to retire or are retired, that kind of has been the American dream, right? You retire, you stop working, and then you can do whatever you want. But as you said, that's gonna come to an end, and it's gonna get boring. You have to find a new purpose, and yeah, you you earned it, no doubt. But at some point, you gotta find something to keep you busy. And I don't like the word busy, productive, maybe better choice. You have to find that, otherwise, you're gonna rot away in the lazy boy.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Absolutely, and and that's where I found I was at at some point, you know. I you know, what what did I do today to to better myself? What did I do today to help somebody else? Um, you know, you just because that chapter of your life is over doesn't mean that that's the end of the book. You have the rest of your life to live, and you have more chapters to write. You have, you know, I I'm a grandpa now. We have a uh she'll be one in in July, or two in July. Jeez. Um, but being a grandpa has been the the best thing ever. It's it's fantastic. And and I love the fact my son just got married a month ago, month and a half ago, seeing my family grow. So now my focus, and and I fell into a lot of what Cole talked about in other episodes was you gave so much at work that it drains you. So that when you get home, you just want, I just need I need time, I need to relax. Uh I'm not a people person, so being around people drains me. Um so when I got home, I just wanted so I checked out a lot. Looking back, if I wish I could go back in time and change it, I would, but yet again, that's my story. That's what I can pull on. So if my son, who is now in uh a police officer, when he starts going through that, I can hopefully help him recognize signs, recognize things, and say, Don't do what I did because it it wasn't good, but here's uh here's a road for you to take.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

I don't think I asked, but how long ago did you step away from law enforcement?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

September 3rd, 2022.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Okay, so a couple years ago, uh what have you seen is the biggest struggle that not just you or your friends that have stepped away, what's the biggest struggle they have gone through themselves?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I think the identity um of one day and and I've had uh people I've worked with that retired on a Friday and went and took another full-time job on Monday. They just, you know, because you know, like with the military, I retired, I was 52, so that's young to retire. Um so you still have a lot of life to live. But I think the people that didn't have a purpose when they retired or didn't have a plan, maybe plan's a better word. Okay, I want to do this, I want to start my own lawn care business, or I want to do this or volunteer or whatever it is. If they just say I'm retiring and I'm gonna live life, well, what plan is that? If you don't have a plan to live life, you're not gonna live life, you're gonna sit around and watch life go by. Um, so I think that's been the biggest struggle uh that I've seen. Um the isolation, the you know, the self-medication, trying to fill that void that you lost. You know, you fill it with other stuff and you fill it with things that probably aren't the best a lot of times, or you can focus on my I have a very strong faith. I think that's what was the the root of how I was able to fight through that and see it and was my faith. Is at some point my faith kicked in. I was like, this isn't where God wants me, and I'm going down a wrong path, so I need to readjust, I need to refocus, I need to redo things. Well, my wife and I do have a small business we run, so I can focus on that, uh, do other things to try to busy your time.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

And it's so it's funny you hit that, right? It's not funny, but you hit that, you touched on that. Mark and I have talked about that same thing, that faith and understanding and everything else. Something you said earlier was change. You had to make the change, you came to that realization. What was it? And change is difficult, but we have the power to do that. We always have that in you know within ourselves to to do that change, as difficult as it is. What was it that that that sparked that? What was it that you got to the end of this dead-end road, if you will, or you had a T crossing, or even you know, uh a crossroads, just a crossroads in life. Why the change?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Well, like I said, I'm an open book. My change came uh when I hit my bottom, and my bottom was totaling my truck and breaking my back.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

That would that would cause a choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

And at that point, and you know, I was drinking that day. I thought I was fine, obviously I wasn't, and that's what really, and at that point, seeing the hurt of the people that love me and care about me, seeing, you know, not only the physical pain for me, but the mental pain for me, I was trying to fill that gap that I lost, and it wasn't a good fill. It was a bad fill. And it kept getting worse and worse and worse. Uh, and at that point, that was my my bottom, that was my my gutter moment, if you if you will. Uh ever since then, I've been seeking how I go to counseling, I go to uh meetings, uh, I go to AA meetings, I go to other support group meetings, and what I found is my rock bottom is not everybody's rock bottom. There's people that are a lot worse than me, and they've made it. Well, if they can do it, I can do it. And I think because of that I was able to pull the strength. Where before, when I felt ashamed to tell people what I did, I now look at it as a badge of honor. You know, I went through this, I made poor choices, I made bad decisions, I wasn't following through with what I felt I was as a person, but yet at some point I was like, okay, it's time to change. And the only person to change me through the help of my faith is me.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that because that alone gives people hope.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

And sometimes that's all we need is just a sliver of hope that we can turn something negative into a positive. So now that you made that change, like talk me through like your daily routine. Like, how do you I know you said you work, you have a small business too. Like, what is a typical day in life of Kurt look like?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Well, it's it's funny because our business is seasonal and we're in our busy time, but when the bit we're we're not doing it, and I still it's not that I struggle with it, but it's something that I have to get more consistent with. If I go to bed the night before and have a plan. For the next day and say, okay, I need to do this, or I need, you know, the trash goes out tomorrow and I need to do that, or I need to run this errand, or that. If if I go to bed knowing that I'm getting up to do something, the grass needs cut, the whatever. If I don't go to bed and have a plan, I flounder. I mosey around, I find little things to do, and it gets to the point where and my wife's a saint. She'll look at me and be like, what are you doing? What are you going to do today? You've done nothing. I'm like, okay, I guess I need to figure something out. Um, so that's what I'm working on now. You know, when it's time for me to get to prepare for my class that I teach, it I teach it like six times a year. It's a three-day class. And I usually take a day or two to prepare, and then I they actually put me in a hotel and I teach it. That's a uh, you know, like a week-long thing there, but um I'm actually starting to I want to get into woodworking. We have an old truck that I want to work on. Um so it's just knowing that I'm waking up for a reason. I'm waking up to do this. I'm waking up, and if I don't want to do something, then I know I plan it. Okay, I'm waking up to relax. You know, we try to Sundays we go to church and that's kind of like our relaxed day. If if it's labeled a relaxed day, then I can feel okay sitting down and watching a ballgame and not feeling like I'm wasting time.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah. Purpose. Yes. Discipline. Yeah, we and you know, this this goes right in line with prior prior episodes, right? We call that our get shit done list.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Your day starts the night prior. Right. If you wait till the morning of, you're probably gonna lose and not do anything or not get done what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Right? And I have watched and read so much about this subject. I've kind of gotten a little infatuated with it. But it is, it's it's purpose. You have to have purpose. And I'm glad you have found your purpose and gotten out of the little rut you were in, because we both went through that rut, too. Finding our purpose after uniform. Let's let's move on to the leadership. Like, how do you see leadership differently now without the uniform?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

That's a really good question. Um to me, leadership is an we've all had supervisors, it's like they're not a good leader. You know, they they don't lead, they don't lead by example. But leadership is how you carry yourself. Leadership is being able to do the hard and not question it. You know, if something hard comes up, um, just stepping out and do it. I always tried to lead by example. If I wasn't willing to do something, then how can I expect somebody else to do it for me? Um and that goes back to when I was training, but I think now that I retired, the leader my leadership role is now based on family, based on being that dad of adult kids, being that grandpa, being that husband. Um, and that was another thing I struggled with when I retired was when I wasn't making a list or having a person who filled that gap for me, my wife. She would write down, can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? And she finally got to the point she's like, I'm not your mother. I shouldn't have to tell you what to do. You're a grown adult. You need to figure it out. Now, I as a leader, I can go to her and be like, is there anything I can help you with tomorrow? So I can put it on my list to make sure that it gets done. To me, that's a leader and not just sitting back and waiting for somebody to tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

What do you think most people get wrong at home?

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Not being engaged. Not being engaged with the family, not knowing what's going on, um, and not making the hard decision. Or hoping somebody else will make the hard decision.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, no one's coming to save us, right? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah. It it you're there, you know, we we pour our lives into a career, but now we're home. You know, you you flounder a little bit. As you both said, we don't, you know, planning what's going to go on the next day before you go to bed and waking up and knowing that you have a purpose for the day. Um, you hit making the hard decision, you know. That's what leaders do. You know, it it may not be popular amongst the family, and it may not, but it needs to be made. We need to be, we need to move this direction, we need to step this way. Um that that's huge, but replacing that purpose, and again, you mentioned a couple things, a couple mindless, if you will, things. The grassness mode. Well, tomorrow I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna go mow the grass. That's the purpose. And then you look out and you're like, wow, the yard really looks good. Not Marizona, we don't mow grass, but um, and we'll hide, you know, your grass grows, you get water and you know all that other stuff. Sometimes you lack sunshine, but that's okay. Um, but yeah, even those little things give this purpose in life. It may not be responding to and giving CPR on the side of the road anymore. It may be mowing the grass, but it's still a purpose, finding that purpose in life, finding that purpose within the family dynamic that uh I think the three of us all put aside for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And to build on that too, even though you go to bed with your goals, don't be so stuck on them that you might have to change your purpose.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Might have to pivot.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And pivot.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

You know, you might get a call from like my daughter might call and be like, hey, I'm I'm having issues getting my mower started. Well, all of a sudden that has moved to the top of the list, and maybe I didn't get to mow the grass because I was helping her or my son or my wife do something that was more important, but guess where that goes on the next day? Okay, then I'll mow the grass tomorrow. So I think a lot of times, and that's to me that's a good sign of a leader, is to be able to pivot, to to put things in perspective on what's the most important thing that needs done, not for me, but for the entire family or for the the the goal or the mission of what you need to get done. If something comes up, I mean, how many times of have you guys in your career, okay, this we're gonna do it this way, but it never ends up that way. The mission never is how you plan it. Everything always gets a wrench thrown at it.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

That's like you going to work as a cop and be like, so I'm gonna go save a life, and then I'm gonna go to lunch, and then I'm gonna go put a bad guy in jail. Yeah, it doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

No. No. I might be babysitting somebody's dog because we took him to the hospital. Yeah. Something like that, yeah. So again, that to me, that's a good leader is to be able to differentiate between that, okay, this is what I want to get done, but if it doesn't line up with what the goal is for that day, or something pops up, then we need to pivot and finish that.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

I'm gonna throw you one here, Kurt.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

What's a truth that most people don't want to hear but need to hear about, let's say, life after not just the uniform, but life after your primary career and you're stepping into the next chapter of life.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I think one of the hardest things, like I've worked with a lot of guys that them being an officer is their entire identity. That you know, these are the guys that'll put 35, 40 years on and retire and within a day, a couple years they'll pass away. Because everything that they've done is that's their you know, I'm John Smith the cop, and I've always been that, and you take that away from me, I'm nobody. I think the and I always tried to live my life as me being a police officer is what I do, it's not who I am. I am me as I'm I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm now a grandfather. Um being a policeman is what I do to pay the bills. Now I took it prideful and I and and I'm very proud of my service. I'm very, you know, did the best I could when I was there, but yet when I walked away from it, besides the fact of that gap of that part of my identity is gone, now I'm filling it with other stuff. I'm trying to fill it with, okay, I can be, excuse me, I can be a business owner, I can be a husband, a father, a friend, uh volunteer. Um I'm getting into volunteering with a couple organizations this summer uh that help first responders, you know, going through PTSD and stuff like that. Um so I think that's the most important thing is don't let your identity when you retire go with you. You have you're still your own person. You were something before you became a uh in the military or something before you became a police officer. Find that identity again. You're that that you person.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah, that's a good point. And I think for the three of us, we can relate to that because Cole retired, went into something that was complementary to what he was doing at retirement. I went into the boneyard, which was very complementary to what I was doing. And now you are using your experience as a police officer to teach. So you're you're not a cop every day now, right? But you're still in the field, you're still doing something related to that. Right. So did that help your transition?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

It did, and excuse me.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

I can delete it.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Okay. You know, like I said, the the faith part, I actually took an instructor class uh so that I could teach in the academy. Well, it just so happened that the guy leading the class, they were just starting this field training certification. Well, I did one of my presentations on field training, and he saw my passion I had for it. He saw that, and he offered me a job on the spot. He said, This is what you need to do. And it is good because I can go there for those three days and teach and get back into it and talk to other officers and have that connection, but then when I go home, I can leave that there. Because it's not the it's fun. I enjoy it. I'm not seeing the the the bad part of police work. It is it is very enjoyable. I enjoy doing it. I enjoy seeing those light bulbs go off like when I was field training. But yet it's it's keeping me into the stuff. Now, a couple years training and stuff, tactics change, and I've learned a lot from you know talking with some of these guys. And another thing I like too is I'm teaching experienced officers in most cases that can relate. I'm not teaching someone brand new, I'm not teaching someone right out of the academy. These are guys and gals that have multiple years experience. So when I tell a story, they can relate to my story, I can relate to their story. Um, but yeah, that that's been a very good, if it wasn't for that, I think my floundering and stuff would have been even more because I I would have had a cold turkey cutoff. I mean, there would have been nothing one day, badge uniform, next day pajamas and slippers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Yeah, you're still leading. Yes. You're in a leadership role, mentoring and advising police officers that might have a few years' experience or maybe as much as you do, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yep. You uh, and and again, I'm not gonna harp. I don't know this question has nothing to do with this, but you mentioned hitting rock bottom, right? Oftentimes we have to hit rock bottom. You know, you've heard Mark and I's story, and now you hear Kurt's story. That rock bottom moment is needed. Yes, that rock bottom moment is part of your story, and it's I would say it's a very integral part of the story because that moment of realization allowed you to grow into what you're doing now, allowed you to grow and gain the perspective into where you are now, right? So I want to I want to reiterate that to our listeners. Don't be afraid of the rock bottom moment, don't hide the rock bottom moment, right? Because the rock bottom moment might just open your eyes and open your perspective and allow you to grow into something that that is totally different, but that moment is needed.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

And let's be to where you are.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

And let's be real. Most of us are too stubborn to not hit that rock bottom. Yes. Right. Very few people make that positive change when they need to before something tragic changes your whole perspective on life. Right. So I agree with you. Like you don't be afraid of it. Hopefully, it's not the end. Hope it's something that can be still lived out. But most of us are gonna hit that point. You just gotta know when that point is it.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

And you know, Cole, you and me talked about it on the drive here. I and when I teach my class, I do a little segment and tell some of my story. Uh, just so I can if people want help, I have resources to give them help. And I had a uh young officer come up to me after class, he goes, uh, I really appreciate you, Sharon. He goes, How do I know if maybe I'm starting to have a drinking problem? Well, my answer was, you just asked me the question. You're there. You do, you do, yeah. And he started telling me some things about it, and I started asking, have you started isolating yourself? Are you more concerned now about instead of being with family, being alone or hiding, you know, making excuses, or he goes, I do all those. I'm like, you need help. Yeah. And if I didn't have my experience, I couldn't have helped him. I couldn't have said, now he has to make the decision. He's the one that has to to to to walk the line and and make the decision and say, okay, I need to get help. But if I wouldn't have gone through what I went through, I wouldn't have been able to relate to that, or at least give him the idea of, okay, I think I need help.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah. Him asking the questions was just needed your confirmation. Absolutely. He knew. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah. And and he he came to ask that question because you shared my story. You got vulnerable, you build a connection. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

That's what we're trying to do with this podcast. And this is a perfect story for our listeners, just from a tiny different bit of perspective. If you could go back 10 to 15 years, what would you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Become a fireman. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Um me too.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Hindsight being 2020 and going back, I think I would focus more on trying to find better boundaries between my work and my home. Um, I was uh one of those people that I tried to leave my work at work, but what I really was doing was hiding my work from my family. I never talked about what I did, I never talked about the bad calls, I never, in fact, my son told me one time, he goes, it was years before I realized what you actually did as a police officer because I never shared it. If I would have shared that and not bottled everything up inside, then maybe I wouldn't have had the struggles I did later on in my career. Um, try to get, you know, and be open with my wife and have those boundaries where, you know, I know I came home and the kids are being crazy and stuff, but I need 15 minutes, I need 20 minutes to decompress before you bombard me with all these questions because you don't know what I went through today and I'm not willing to share it. Now, if I would go to her and be like, honey, I just had a really bad crash, I worked, I need some time. She would have understood. She's my wife's a very smart, smart woman, but when I said nothing, in her mind, everything's fine. But I was a train wreck inside, but I didn't show it. So I would have done better if it at that.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah, that sounds like some conversations you and I've had, Cole.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah. Why is it so hard?

unknown 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Why is that so hard? Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_01 38:49

In younger life. I looked at it as protecting my family so they wouldn't worry about me. Which in reality, what I was doing was trying to protect myself and not tell them, hey, something's bothering me. Because when I first started, you know, we didn't have things like after action reviews and stuff. If we had a bad call, the sergeant would look at you and be like, You good? Yeah, I'm good. We'll see you tomorrow. That was instead of saying, you know, that was a pretty bad call, you want to talk about it. Or do you want to go talk to somebody? At least now that culture is shifting. They're getting help for our first responders out there. Now they are there's places out there, there's there's peer groups, there's all kinds of stuff, if you're willing to take it.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, I think it took a long time for that story for people to get help. It took a long time for people to accept that. Yes, like it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

It's okay to not be okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It to compress is to be depressed. Yeah. So we actually created a barrier with our families by holding it in instead of getting it off our shoulders.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah, it's interesting. There's so many parallels here, and that's why I was looking forward to this conversation, is I knew it would be similar, didn't know how similar.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah. The the are you good? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. That is the single most used phrase for somebody who's not good. I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

And it's a horrible question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah. You ask a very closed-ended question and expect somebody to just open up, right? Instead of like you did in your class, you share your story. We share a little bit. When you build that connection, you foster that connection with somebody, and then the are you good turns into how do I know if I have a drinking problem? Right? Or how do I know, or how did you get through this? Or, you know, and again, you're not offered unsolicited advice, but you're sparking that conversation, that two-way conversation that people are going to have. And oftentimes that two-way conversation leads to a two-way conversation with somebody else and and everything else. You had to hit rock bottom to get there. Don't miss those moments. Don't hide those moments.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

No. That's your story. That's you know, like I said, I was ashamed at first, but now I look at it as a badge of courage because I fought myself up. I I wasn't looking for a handout, I was looking for a hand up. I was wanting and I saw it. I sought help. I talked to other people who went through similar experiences. I've you know seen other very successful men hit their rock bottom and what they did to go out of it. You know, a word that I'm not allowed to use at home now is fine. I'm fine. If my wife asks me something, I was like, I'm fine. She's like, okay, what's wrong? She knows that's my something's bothering me, but I don't want to bother you, so I'm fine. I'll deal with it. I'm not allowed, that's a taboo word in my house now.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

We're stronger people by telling the story. Yes. And I know it sounds kind of paradoxical, but that's really where our strength comes from is getting that stuff out and not holding it in. The the weaker-minded ones are the ones that keep it in and think that they're the only one.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

It's amazing how much you can relate to somebody by just sharing your story.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

So I kind of got a closing question, and if you got something else cool, that's cool too. What does building your next chapter look like? You're you retired three, four years ago, you're mid-50s, you're a grandpa. Like I can relate to a lot of it, except for your age, you're way older than I am. But what does that next chapter look like?

SPEAKER_01 42:54

I think my next chapter, um, you know, with our business, we've expanded it. We we're growing it. That's going to be a big part of it, with the idea of hopefully passing it on to our kids. But I think the the next goal will be to just enjoy where we're at. Enjoy the benefits of the hard work that we've put in, the hard work that I did during my law enforcement career, the hard work we did building our business, the hard work we did raising our kids. And when I say we, my wife is very, a very strong person. Um, you know, she homeschooled two of our kids, our two kids, and did all this stuff. My mindset was I need to provide the income to pay the bills. That would be some going back a couple questions. That would be something else I would change as far as if I could go back 15, 20 years to be more involved at the home level, then not have that what I call old school mentality where the man goes out and works and the woman stays home and takes care of everything else. Um, that's very a selfish. Attitude, in my opinion, looking back now. But I think just moving forward and finding those, you know, doing more volunteer work, doing more stuff and having more purpose. It's not the fact of just getting up and filling the day. It's the fact of getting up and having something to do to look forward to. You know, be excited about something. I fought a lot of depression uh the last few years, and we had, you know, a couple officers killed in line of duty. We a lot of stuff, and depression is real. It's and it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's it's nothing to uh look down on. But I fought it a lot of times. There'd be times I'd wake up and be like, Why do I feel depressed? I would have no idea. And it to the point now where when my wife sees it, she'll be like, What's wrong today? What's going on today? And I'm to the point instead of saying I'm fine, I'm saying I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out myself. Um so just trying to live life and be happy. That's that's the whole goal, right? Is to be happy.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah, be grateful what we have versus what we don't have. And we've talked about this too, Cole, just being content.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

That's a hard thing for our society to do these days. It's like we're always searching for the next happiness, what's gonna bring us happiness or joy that's temporary. But are we truly content? That's that's the ultimate goal.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

I was reading this book last night, and if it's alright, I'd like to read a little bit of passage. It's called The Forgotten Way by Matthew Kelly. Uh, and I won't read all of it, but it it's your heart yearns for what this world calls happiness. It is universal human longing. We seek this happiness through an array of adventures, experiences, relationships, accomplishments, and possessions. And yet there is one immodible truth when it comes to experiencing happiness. You will never have more happiness than you have discipline. It's all about discipline. It's all about having a reason and a goal. As long as you are fulfilling and you're disciplined enough to reach those goals and reach that purpose, the happiness will come.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

That's deep. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Yeah, that is deep. Um never be afraid of your story. Never be afraid to share your story. Don't write your story in pencil because you need to see the mistakes. Write it in pen. Right? But your story is still out in front of you, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate those words, Cole, and I appreciate Kurt, you sharing your story because people are going to listen to this and relate to it, uh, hopefully just like they relate to our story from the military perspective, but from the law enforcement perspective, firefighters perspective, you know, people that serve their communities, their nation, their cities, and provide safety and are in dangerous jobs. What I hear is the uniform might have come off, right? But the responsibility didn't. We still have responsibility even after that main career we did. We just take ownership in a different way. And I think that's what you were getting at with sharing your story was you kind of cruised into retirement without a plan, without a purpose. The accident happened, and then that's when the ownership came in.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on, and uh I know it's probably easier to talk about now than it was a couple years ago. Absolutely. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have even done this with us. Right. So, your leadership and courage and just sharing some vulnerabilities is much appreciated, and uh really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

It's been a pleasure, and I enjoyed every minute.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

All right, y'all take care. We'll see you on the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

How are you?