Operation Next Chapter
Operation Next Chapter is a leadership and life podcast for people navigating transition, pressure, and purpose.
Hosted by Marc and Cole — two former U.S. Air Force First Sergeants — the show is built on real stories from the diamond: moments of crisis, accountability, compassion, and growth that shaped how they led people when it mattered most.
Each episode breaks down lessons learned in high-stress environments and translates them into practical guidance for everyday life — at work, at home, in relationships, and in personal growth.
At the heart of the show is a simple mission: RECLAIM — your leadership, your finances, your health, and your next chapter of life.
Whether you’re a veteran transitioning out of service, a leader feeling the weight of responsibility, or someone looking to live with more intention and resilience, Operation Next Chapter is here to help you move forward with clarity and purpose.
Because leadership doesn’t end when the uniform comes off — it evolves.
Email us at OperationNextChapter@gmail.com
Operation Next Chapter
We Didn't See That Coming
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What happens after the uniform comes off and the plan you thought you had doesn’t quite work out?
In this episode of Operation Next Chapter, Marc and Cole get off the script and share some of the funnier, harder, and more unexpected experiences they've had since retiring from the military.
Some were wins. Some were failures. Some took them down rough roads before ultimately bringing them somewhere better.
Because sometimes you don't realize what a moment taught you until years later.
From career decisions and unexpected opportunities to mistakes, setbacks, relationships, and the lessons that only come from experience, this conversation is a reminder that your next chapter rarely goes exactly as planned—and that's okay.
You don't have to have it all figured out.
Sometimes you just have to keep turning the page.
In this episode, we talk about:
- The things we thought retirement would look like—and what actually happened
- The mistakes we made after leaving the military
- Unexpected wins and opportunities
- The failures that ultimately redirected us
- What experience has taught us that preparation couldn't
- Why the rough spots can become some of the most valuable parts of your story
Your next chapter isn't supposed to be perfect. It's supposed to be yours.
Listen in, laugh with us, and maybe recognize a little bit of your own story along the way.
OperationNextChapter@gmail.com
It was okay to take a breath. It was okay to still give it my all, but not feel like everything was a right now no-fail mission. Civilian world moves at a different pace than what I did in the military. And I'm not saying, I'm not gonna say the military in general. What Cole Jacob did in the military, my civilian world moves at a different pace. Now, are there times that I gotta, you know, I gotta put off.
SPEAKER_00Alright, cool. We are back today. We'll do something a little different where it's kind of maybe the stuff we would talk about when the microphone is off, is talking about life after the Air Force and some challenges that we were both going through at the time. Maybe some funny stories, but they shaped who we became after the uniform came off. So if you could go back and tell yourself one thing the day you retired, you know, that what would it be? That's the kind of thing that we're wanting to talk about today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, there's been there's been a lot of fumbles in there. I will say if I could tell myself one thing, is to give myself grace immediately. And I say that because I do give myself grace when I tripped and fell and stepped in crap uh along the way. But my instant reaction, if you will, was to go to that browbeating stage of the screw up and whatever led me to that. We were so good for so long in the Air Force, and not to say that I was perfect or anything, but I was so comfortable and I was good at good at that mission and and and good at living that life. When I retired, I had no idea what I was stepping into, and I stepped in it a lot, and I tripped and fell a lot, and I had a lot of things happen right out the gate that seemingly felt like they were good, but my mentality and my attitude got in the way a couple times. And I I if I could give myself a piece of advice, if I give anybody a piece of advice, whether you're retired from the military, for first responder world, or moving jobs or anything else, give yourself grace because you're not you're not an expert at what you're walking into.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's kind of what I was going with too is whether you're retiring from the military or anywhere else, that it's not the finish line like I thought it was. And I think many of us thought that, you know, okay, we did my 20 or however long you did, and you're finished. No, it's actually just a different starting line. And the next chapter isn't gonna be perfect. And I don't think that I was looking for perfection. I decided it was gonna be easier than it really was. And you know, like we've kind of mentioned before, like we've made mistakes, we've made some mess ups, and it was humbling. And then at the end of it, or you know, to this point, it's been worth it. A lot of learning, a lot of discovery, and the next chapter was some things that we didn't expect, I guess is the best way to say it.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You know, we've all heard it, everything kind of fell into place for me post-retirement, or so I thought. And and I'll be honest, it did fall into place for me. It fell in place for me, and I I have some challenges, a lot of challenges, but it allowed me the opportunity, continue to do in my mind what was the most important thing, and that was to put money in the bank account to replace that paycheck, uh, that active duty paycheck, if you will. But it didn't fulfill me or didn't do anything, quote unquote, do anything for me until I allowed it to. Until I learned how to write the next chapter, until I learned how to, you know, shift that mindset and shift directions. And don't get me wrong, retirement was the absolute right thing for me to do and at absolutely the right time. But I wasn't I wasn't ready for figuring out what was happening in the next, you know, writing that next chapter. I beat myself up. I beat myself up because I wasn't good at it, and I wasn't succeeding at the job. I was earning the paycheck, but I wasn't succeeding the way I wanted to, or the way I had envisioned. And so that was difficult. We thought we had a plan.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yes. And we thought we knew what life would look like outside the uniform. And truthfully, maybe you had the same kind of thought that I did, but I thought because I retired from the Air Force that I had everything figured out. And boy was I wrong.
SPEAKER_01No man, mine was all perfect. Yes, yes, I I underestimated the difficult. I thought I had it figured out. I thought I was, you know, in the right headspace, but that that turned out not to be true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I think we kind of talked about this a little bit before where it was kind of an identity crisis. Like we were changing our identity, but nobody had really told us that or how to to handle that. It just happened naturally, and you just looking back at it, I realized it happened, but at the time it didn't cross my mind like I'm shifting to a new identity, and I had to find a new purpose. That was the the difficult part. And I think anybody that's moved from one career to another or from one part of life to another, we've all experienced the same things, but never really put a a word or a phrase to it. Like that's what was happening, and that's what made it difficult. We we knew it was happening, we just didn't know what it was called.
SPEAKER_01Yes. But that's okay. Let's be honest. That that happens everywhere in life. It happened to us when we got promoted. It you know, we had to change job, or we had to change that identity, and we had to now be the supervisor, or we, you know, we had to do this. So all through our career that happened. Why did we fumble or stumble, if you will, when we were retired?
SPEAKER_00I think it's because the uniform changed. You know, we were wearing civilian clothes at the time, and that was a change for us of having a new wardrobe and not wearing the same thing every day, not going to the same place or the same base every day. We had to find a new routine, right? We had to find ways to slow down because we were operating at a pretty high ops tempo most days, depending on your job. But as you went out as a first sergeant, I went out as a senior leader, that high ops tempo was every day. Like it was there was always a fire to put out, so to speak. We knew was coming or came when we were trying to put other fires out. And so that was the big you know, aha moment, like, okay, life can slow down a little bit. Everything's not on fire, everything's not an emergency. Life is still gonna go on. And that was you know, part of my purpose in life was I was really good at putting out fires and really good at you know fixing things with my hands and resources and intuition, gut. And then it was all gone. And so readjusting to a new chapter, a new season in life, that was the tough part. And like there's no manual for that. There's no book, there's no one way for everybody. Everybody's gotta figure that out. But that's not an easy chore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that not an easy chore is an understatement. And you're right, everybody's gotta figure it out for themselves. Everybody has to figure out what fits. Which direction are you gonna go? And it's gonna be different. Everybody could have the same career path, you know, put in the Air Force and post-Air Force, but each individual is gonna go through things differently, experience things differently, and we have to figure everything out. You know, you mentioned a book. We read a lot, you know, or I listen to books, you read the books, trying to figure out, you know, different and and pulling different nuggets from different places and everything else to write our next chapter, figure out our next path and the the right path. And the path is gonna change. You know, you're gonna have to make some edits to your chapter. You're gonna have to make some edits to where you're going and and what you're doing, and and and sometimes, most importantly, how you're going about doing it. But those things are all possible, those things are all within your control. You you have to give yourself the grace to do it. You have to sometimes laugh at yourself when you absolutely fail and and understand that failure is part of growth, failure is part of life, and it's gonna happen. None of us are perfect. We want to be and sometimes feel that we should be or are, but the bottom line is we're not, and we're gonna miss the mark. And it's okay. How do you respond when you miss the mark?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I could tell you I missed the mark during my skill bridge. Simple as like, you know, translating military lingo to civilian lingo and not using acronyms and not everybody wants to be called sir, ma'am, and just all those things that we were accustomed to in uniform. And it was a big wake-up call on the civilian side that, like, hey, relax. Like, you don't have to sit straight up and down, you know, like be comfortable. There's a conversation back and forth. You know, you're learning about us, we're learning about you. Like, this has to go both ways. And again, like I feel like tap kind of talked about some of this, but it wasn't as in-depth or wasn't as explainable until you're actually sitting in that position.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Relaxed. I can't tell you how many times I heard that word, you know, leaving the military. And also, I can't tell you how frustrating to hear that word was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? You know, I am relaxed. You should have seen me before, and I have pulled the throttle back, and I'm working at still a pace that is faster than what maybe you think that I should be, but this is my comfort zone. I actually had I I had an employer use that against me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good point because we're used to running way faster in the Air Force in those jobs at the end of our career, and then pulling the throttle back and slowing down felt like we weren't giving enough, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and again, it wasn't that I wasn't invested, it wasn't that I wasn't working uh and doing everything that needed to be done. Um it was just, hey, I I I want you to know if the time comes, I can I can give more. I have more in the tank, and I can I can go I can go further. Or I can go faster if needed, or I can carry more weight if needed. So it wasn't, you know, I'm not slacking, I and I'm not just openly gonna tell you that I'm slacking and I'm only giving, you know, doing 50% of the work that you're asking me to do, which should be obvious. I mean, you're getting the results, should be obvious that that's not the case, but that was lost in translation. So it we run as fast as we can when we need to run as fast as we can. It's nice though when you can pull the throttle back and and cruise through whatever the task is.
SPEAKER_00So, what did that teach you in transitioning from military to civilian life?
SPEAKER_01Uh it taught me not to be so honest. It taught me that what I had been doing for the for so many years might not have been the most healthy thing that I was doing, but it it was needed. That it was okay to take a breath. It was okay to still give it my all, but not feel like everything was a right now no-fill mission. Civilian world moves at a different pace than what the what I did in the military. And I'm not saying, I'm not gonna say the military in general, what Cole Jacob did in the military. My civilian world moves at a different pace. Now, are there times that I gotta, you know, I gotta push the throttle of the wall? Yeah, there are, and I'm ready for those.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm not saying that you made a mistake, but one of my mistakes that I made was not having a clear path in my mind of what I wanted to do. And going back to that interview during my internship, well, I had a couple interviews there, that really bit me because I was not shooting toward a specific job or a specific career path. I had it in my mind that, hey, I'm a leader, I'm a manager, I'm a supervisor. Like I could roll in anywhere and assume one of those positions and just start leading. And that was not the case because most places that I interviewed at, they wanted experience in the industry before they're gonna hire you just as a manager or supervisor. They wanted you to be there for a couple of years and doing the J O B, so to speak. But I didn't know what skill set I needed to bring to them to obtain a job because I was too broad in my search. So I was just applying for anything that I thought my soft skills would translate to. But because I'd have time in the industry, they were like, well, we'd like you, and I think you'd be good. But there's people that have been doing this, and their next step is the supervisory role or manager or whatever it is. And so that was a humbling experience for me. And again, I I don't regret it. It taught me a lot, but I was not valid enough to explain what I was trying to obtain. And they were trying to help me and they were trying to, you know, get me a position with them. It just didn't work out. I'm glad it didn't work out. But at the time I was devastated, like, crap. Now I gotta go back to the the drawing board and figure out something else. And it was frustrating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we do so much, so many different areas, or we did so much in so many different areas while we were in. Uh, and that's difficult, right? It it is humbling. I I was passed up for for a couple positions that I felt that I would be better than the person that that eventually was hired in. And was it a knock on me? No, I I took it that way. It wasn't, but I took it that way. And figuring out how to course correct from that, figuring out how to get your my mindset back from that. Well, you know, not going to the well, screw you, you know, I I can do this much better, and you know, and then almost undermining the person that was promoted into those positions, right? But that's all part of the learning process. That's all part of what we have to accept sometimes when you're moving, when you're changing careers. You know, you can't continue to write that story if you don't accept your own failures. And even if that failure is in your own mindset, you know, you mentioned it and you've talked about it before. You didn't know exactly what you wanted to do, but you were trying to do a bunch of things. So you had a big wide scope that you were, you know, focusing on, but not focused on anything pinpointed or you know, a definite direction. You know, you just mentioned that's kind of what set you back. Well, I think we're all guilty of that. I think I could do anything.
SPEAKER_00And to some degree, I kind of expected them, them being multiple places I interviewed at, to take a gamble on me just from either the interview or my personality or my resume. And I realized quickly that they're not going to take a gamble. They want experience, and they didn't care whether you were a good fit for the team or your personality was right on. They focused more on what my resume did not have on it, which was industry experience, versus, you know what, I think I think we can make this happen and hire this dude, and everything's gonna be okay. Many companies are not willing to take that gamble. And then the further in I got into citizen life, I also realized that not everybody viewed being a former military member as a positive. And they not to their fault, they just didn't realize what skills we brought and what kind of leadership we brought from being in for 20 plus years or whatnot. But they had it, you are risky for us.
SPEAKER_01Yes. You know, I started still on terminal leave and started into the the industry that I still work in. I think it's partially because of the things that you mentioned as far as the personality and my job specifically. One advantage that I had over others that were applying for the job was I had an ID card that could get me on base. I still to this day. I literally signed my job wreck today, or not today, but uh this week for the job that I'm in now. Part of it is I don't have the degrees that are required to do the job, but now they're taking the time that I've been in the job, you know. But the very first job, I didn't need any qualifications. I didn't feel other than I had an ID card. And part of my hiring process was a retired chief, one of the guys that interviewed me, and he was a first sergeant, so he understood the value that experience would bring into this job. So they did take a chance on me. Now, for leadership positions and promotions within after I was in the door, they did not. That part did not. I interviewed for a couple of positions and I didn't have the quote unquote experience, and I didn't have the the degrees needed, they did not take a chance on me at that point.
SPEAKER_00That's so crazy that your ID card was an unexpected win and helped you obtain a position. And my ID card didn't even matter at the places I was in applying to and interviewing at. The unexpected win for me was knowing people got me a job. Yeah. It wasn't my resume, I think, it wasn't my well, maybe the interview, but knowing somebody got me the interview and eventually got me a couple of different jobs. And it wasn't because ID cards, just it was simply a referral and somebody that worked there currently and was like, you need to hire this dude. Trust me on this.
SPEAKER_01That just goes back to different paths. We both retired, we were both moving to the civilian industry. What gives us the leg up? What gives you, as our listeners, what gives you a leg up? You know, I I I've said it before. Life sometimes is not what you know, it's who you know. Uh, in my case, it was my IB card. In Mark's case, it was literally who he knew. And I don't want to say use your advantages or use people as your advantage, but take every opportunity to explore those advantages. What gives you a leg up? What will separate you? Is taking this course gonna separate you from the rest of the pack in your specific career field to get you to the next step? Is doing this certain job that maybe nobody else wants to do and nobody else wants to even go down that road going to give you a leg up in the future? I encourage you to find those things within whatever you're doing in life that are gonna give you that advantage. That are, you know, it's it's okay to use that to your advantage. Do the work to get there. In our case, mark new people. In my case, I didn't know anybody that I was going to work for or work with or anything else. It was completely a foreign entity for me, but I had an ID card and they wanted somebody who could get on base. And lo and behold, here I am.
SPEAKER_00You know, and looking back, another thing that I learned and found out was sometimes these companies don't even post jobs, and it's they're solely filled on internal connections or network. And a lot of the jobs that you might see on ND or these other hiring websites are kind of always there, whether they're open or available or not. And so the network for me paid off because of exactly that. People had reached out to me, or I had applied for a job at that company, and somebody inside knew it and saw my name, and then said, Hey, oh, we have this also available, which I had no eyes on. So, yeah, the network was a huge, unexpected win for me. And the failure was just not knowing what I wanted to do and not knowing what jobs to apply for, or not even knowing what some of the job titles even meant. And so having that network was an absolute advantage for that kind of inside information, if you will.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, utilizing your resources, utilizing the tools available to you, utilizing your skills, even if they're not direct skills in into where you want to be, your skills as far as work ethic and attitude and utilizing those things that are available to you, it can only help. Even even if it doesn't look like it's going to help in this instance, it might help in the next one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's great advice, Cole. And you know, that makes me think about the days where we thought we were failing. Looking back, we were just being redirected to something that was. More suited for us than maybe we thought. And you know, if your next chapter feels messy, that's a good thing. That probably means that you're trying, you're living it. Um, and you don't have to have it all figured out. We we figure things out as we go. You just have to keep turning the page to the next chapter. That's something that, you know, I was encouraged by the people is keep working towards it, try to keep the frustration level down and reach out, talk to people, ask their experiences. And this is another, you know, going back to the podcast, we share our stories from our transition to hopefully help somebody else and realize it wasn't perfect, and it's not perfect today, but we have found a calling, what we're currently both doing, not the podcast itself, but also outside of that of what we do for a daily job. And so somebody out there needs to hear this message, and they need to know that they're not the only ones trying to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, when when you have writer's block writing your your next chapter or writing the chapter that you're currently in, figure out ways to go around. Or as Mark said, turn the page. Turn the page and start writing something about something else. But continue to write your story. Continue to write your next chapter, continue to look forward in what you can do. Don't get stuck and just stay there and muddle through it. You don't deserve to just muddle through life. You deserve to thrive in life. You deserve everything that you have worked for or are willing to work for. Now, I will say this: if you're sitting there stuck with writer's block and it might be because of something you did, that's okay too. Failure is just another opportunity to grow. It's another opportunity to find a different route to get through something. We've been there, and you know what? I'll probably be there again. I'm I'm just saying, what I have learned is it's okay. I don't celebrate failure, I grow and learn from failure. I didn't always do that. It wasn't always that easy for me to say that. But that's what I've learned. I've recognized where I've where I've screwed up, I've recognized the mess that I may have put myself in. Or maybe you didn't. Maybe you just got stuck in a mess. But give yourself the grace and move on. Move forward.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what Cole is saying is your next chapter isn't written by your biggest wins. It's really written on how you respond to those setbacks. Your biggest win might be today's pair.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Hey man, great combo. As usual, this is a combo we would have without the recording button on, and I'm glad we recorded it. How are you up, brother? Bye, brother. We'll talk to him y'all later. Thanks for joining us on Operation Next Chapter. If this episode brought you value, share it with someone who needs it. Follow the show wherever you put in apply. And remember, your next chapter doesn't happen by time.