EP27 - Chuck Hahn on starting again at 79 | TAP Classic

In this TAP Classic (aka one from the archive), David Lennon catches up with legendary brewer Dr. Charles "Chuck" Hahn and his son Scott Hahn at their new brewery, Chuck & Sons, in St Peters, Sydney.

Chuck's impact on Australian beer is difficult to overstate. From Hahn Super Dry and James Squire to Kosciuszko Pale ale and countless innovations that helped shape modern brewing in Australia, his fingerprints are all over the industry.

At 79 years old, Chuck has done what most people only talk about - come out of retirement to build something new.

Together, Chuck and Scott share stories from decades in brewing, lessons learned from building iconic beer brands, the realities of running a family brewery, and why great beer has always been about bringing people together.

Whether you're a craft beer enthusiast, home brewer, hospitality professional or simply love hearing the stories behind Australian success, this conversation remains one of the most important we've had on the show.

**SIDE NOTE TO LONG TIME LISTENERS - We need to chat around 25 mins in! 

🍺 IN THIS CHAT

• Chuck's journey from chemistry student to brewing pioneer
• The origins of Hahn Brewery and James Squire
• Building beer brands that changed Australian drinking culture
• Why Chuck returned from retirement
• Launching Chuck & Sons with his family
• The role community plays in great beer
• Advice for the next generation of brewers
• What's next for Chuck & Sons

FEATURED GUESTS

Dr. Charles "Chuck" Hahn
Founder, Chuck & Sons Brewing

Scott Hahn
Business Director, Chuck & Sons Brewing

📍 Chuck & Sons Brewing
St Peters, Sydney NSW

Follow Chuck & Sons:
Instagram: @chuckandsonsbrewing

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Chat Ontap, the show that needs a new tagline. More on that towards the end of the show. And if you're a long time listener and you've already heard this interview, you want to skip forward to 24 and a half minutes in. I want to be transparent. There's plenty there for you to digest. But today, I want to play you an episode that I put in the middle of another episode, and I think it deserves to stand on its own because it is the godfather of Australian craft beer. Chuck Hahn. You will have drank one of his beers sometime in your life. But he's got a brand new operation. He came out of retirement. He's there with his son. And well, I'm just gonna let the boys tell you uh what they're up to. I'm very, very excited to be here because I feel like in some ways this was a real start to my beer craft journey. Um I'm at Chuck and Sons with Chuck Hahn and Scott Hahn. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Oh, you don't cheers your own son anymore. Cheers. Alright, what are we what are we drinking? David, you and I are drinking our Two World Ale. Yes. Uh one of my favourites. Uh I believe it is one of your favourites.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

It is. Not just of your beer range, but of of about the beer range getting around in Australia at the moment. So I feel like the American Amber. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Beautiful beer. Yeah. You've always been a bit of a trailblazer and a curveball, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Alright, so to start off, I'm gonna start with a question each. Yep. Gonna start with you, Scott. You've watched your dad become a legend of the beer industry. What do you think of when you think of your dad's legacy?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah. Well, first and foremost, don't tell him he's a legend because, you know, he can barely walk through the door as it is. Um but no, I think it I think it is a well-deserving term. He um, you know, after having 54, over 54 years of brewing, he is so passionate about every single aspect of the industry. You know, the socialization, the connections, the occasions, um, the home brewers, the small brewers, the indies, the large brewers, he loves them all, right? And I think that kind of consistent energy and the way he treats everyone as kind of good people and engaging in that passion that is craft beer, um, you know, that's been unwavering. And I think it is well deserved, as much as I don't like to say that he's a legend. Um he is a legend and he is really well respected. You know, any brewer who picks up the phone and calls dad, he's the first to answer. Uh he's the first to go try their beers, the first to, you know, advise a home brewer on changing a bit of a recipe. Um, so pretty impressive legacy. And thinking about that, yeah, it it kind of almost I'm a bit lost for words because we want to continue that at um you know Chuck and Sons. We really want to cement that legacy, that kind of um family feeling, that heritage. And yeah, we're still a pretty young brewery, but we've obviously got a lot of experience behind it. So yeah, are you do you feel like you're a legend?

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Well, it's a it's a young brewery, but a a very old legend.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

And very old brewer. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

And we'll get to that because I want to firstly, I want your first question to be, Chuck. Um, you've seen your son now, take the brains as business director. He's he's the next part of this legacy. What do you what are you seeing in Scott?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

No, I I I see him, you know, he's really learning quickly uh about uh he's always known how to taste beer and drink beer, but as far as how we make beer, he's uh quickly learning how we do all that. So that's that's really important. I think it's and uh he's very good at running a business, and I think that's what's really pulled Chuck and Sons together, how he's even able to do that. Now our real challenge is how we and now expand our marketplace and get more people enjoying our beers.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Um I have to then ask, if you're the son of the brewer, when do you first have a beer?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Uh I I have a distinct memory, but it is off the record.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I'm just gonna I'm gonna stop you there.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

We're on the record. I believe somehow I've looked if we can find a photo, I'll get the photo, we'll show the photo, right? Um I believe I I would have been probably five or six months old, and um for some reason I had a fascination with the the froth or the head of the beer. Yeah, and so there's a picture of me going um over to a nice uh schooner glass and uh yeah, enjoying that that foam, that experience. So um, yeah, I often joke that that you know may have been the reason why I was held back in school and high school and not quite all there. But um, yeah, absolutely exposed to beer at a very, very young age and yeah, spent time in breweries and that's just because of trying to get ahead when you're an infant. Trying to get ahead in life. We might need to edit that one out, I think, for sure. We don't edit. Who's this guy?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I love it. His dad jokes. He's the dad part of the jug and subs. It's been just over a year now of this brewery. And so what's that year been like?

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Well, I think it's been um, I mean, it's been phenomenal the way it's expanded, how people uh have recognized the place and it's a place to go. Uh but the real good thing is they're they're enjoying our full range of beers. You know, I mean, sure the the Pilsner and the Two World Pale are our biggest sellers, but uh the full range people are enjoying it. And I find that that fantastic. Uh because even though we have uh wines and cocktails available, of course, beer leads the place.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Do you do you find there's a obviously there's a leg up when you've got the the name hard, but what's the identity process of being this is our new venture? What are we what are we building here?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I think what we've we're trying to build is is first of all, the craft marketplace is amazing. Like we are so lucky. There's um so much variety there for consumers, uh, but also from a venue perspective in Sydney's NOS, you're spoilt for choice as well. There's there's so many great um tap rooms and pubs and food offering. Um I think for us, we wanted to not only give dad, I guess, an opportunity to to shine again because he was retired very briefly. Yeah. Um he had you know lots of um ideas and recipes to kind of give to the marketplace. So we wanted to, I guess, tread carefully. Um we are all welcoming in our venue, so you'll often see a mix of families and hop heads and locals and just everyone enjoying the space. Um, but we wanted to focus on premium classic craft styles of beer. So beer that can please as many people as possible, welcome new people into craft, um, but certainly that kind of reliable brand, a brand you can trust, you know the liquid's going to be good. Um, and so our identity has kind of really been based on you know all of those things coming together with some pretty big aspirations, and those aspirations are to be um, I guess, the most respected and adored craft brewer in Australia. And there's so many of them, right? But but we really aspire to be one of the best.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Chuck, obviously, there's there's been many beers that people will know that were yours along the journey. What is the beer now that you're most proud of? Like, what what's been the what's been the thing that you go, I am glad I got out of retirement?

SPEAKER_03 7:55

I mean, I I think the I mean my favorite beer that we're making, we're brewing right now, of course, is our Pilsmer. Yeah. I mean, that's just a beautiful beer. And then I'm I'm drinking the uh American amber now. But uh no, I think I'm uh Pilsner is just a go-to beer. I mean it's an easy drinking, uh German, German style poison, so it's it's not quite as as harsh or or as bitter as the Czech style, but it still uses Czech hops in it and German hops, and it's just a beautiful balance. But I think the whole thing about beer drinking, uh beer enjoyment is the social atmosphere that evolves around that. And that's what we set up uh tap running here for. Social building. And people come here and enjoy a few beers, they can sit outside and have their dogs with them, uh, but come in, uh enjoy a few beers, enjoy the fellowship that evolves from having a few good tasting beers.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

That's what there's certainly um been many instances where we'll have a customer come in and you know experience our products or uh the venue or buy it at a bottle shop, and they may not know that kind of link or heritage with those 54 years of brewing. So um we don't necessarily lead, we don't lead with that, right? It's like a surprise of oh wow, uh this is a really great beer. Ah, I understand where it's come from. So um yeah, we've really tried to create our own identity in that space.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Can you tell the story? Because I've heard you tell this, but I really want the listeners to hear it. Oh no. Um, no. We're talking about essentially someone who retired for a split second and then decided to get out of retirement. Tell me from your lens, Scott, how you got dad out of retirement or how he brought himself out of retirement.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Uh great question, and I'm glad it's that story and not uh another story that's I don't know, shouldn't be told.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I won't I won't tell them about the monkey.

unknown 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

So yeah, Dad and I um we've loved, we've always loved catching up, eating delicious food, drinking delicious beers, um, and trialling all sorts of wine and uh single malt whiskies um or bourbons, that's okay to sounding like a real uh alcohol. But anyway, um we probably every what a few months we'd have a session where we kind of sit down and we'd go through, you know, several beers, call it five or six beers responsibly, and then a few um, you know, whiskies and always kind of give that feedback of what do you think? What do you think? And you know, I think I've learned a lot from dad in terms of my my palate and kind of um over the years, but there was this one moment um a couple of years back where dad paused longer than he would usually pause to give his feedback uh because we respectfully give turns, and he just looked at me and he had a little bit of a twinkle in his eye, and he was like, uh Scott, I'm not I'm not done with brewing. And I just went, Oh, I didn't expect that. But um that's interesting, and so probably took what a couple of minutes after that um that I said, well, there's something special here. I I think there is something special here. You've got so much to give the market still, um, so let's let's rally behind you and um build an independent family-owned craft brew. And so that that's where it started. It was that I needed to have that spark from him, but I'd um I'd had something kind of fermenting in in the in the world. You're a dad too, as well. I can see. Yeah, but look, I I think as as a lot of people know, it's it's uh it's a lot of work starting a craft brewery, and and particularly um in this industry and climate at the moment. Um but yeah, it's been an amazing journey, and yeah, I'll I'll still always remember that that little twinkle in his eye and and smile. And it was after, you know, not not explaining what you thought of a whiskey or telling a bad joke, but it was giving some insight that we could move forward with.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Did you ever think you were retired, Chuck? Was there ever a moment you went, I'm done?

SPEAKER_03 12:19

No, they say all brewers never retire, they keep popping along.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yes. There it is, folks. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

So here, evening at 79, I'm still brewing beer, tasting beer. I mean, it's a terrible life. Yeah. But someone's got to do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

In that little bit of retirement, did you even have a little home kit or something? Or did you take a moment just to go try everyone else's beer and went?

SPEAKER_03 12:44

No, I have had enough of my my own still to drink.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Okay, on that, I'm sure people would ask this if you if you are a brewer, could you live on just your own beer for the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

That's kind of like that, if you're on a desert island, deserted island, like what do you have?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

If you're Chuck Han, are you taking Chuck Han's Pilsner home on the desert island for the rest of your life? Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Yeah, yeah, still taking it home.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

As I've said in the intro, um I have an affinity here because, in full disclosure, I'm part of the tasting panel. Uh to tell listeners how that works, I sort of just I guess I entered a competition, got to be a part of the crew, uh, and it was one of five people get to come along and talk about this. So um I know there was a very big importance to you, Chuck, in having a tasting panel. And can you kind of explain why you have a tasting panel of regular people?

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Well, I think, I mean, I've um developed my my own palate over my over 50 years of brewing, but that that's my personal palate, and I know what's good to me, what what I like to drink. But when you're offering a beer to the marketplace, you've got to get input from other people. Because other people have uh different tastes, different preferences. And that's why we've assembled kind of an elite panel to except for you, of course.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, I'm not the elite one. I really feel like I'm a stragglers. You're not, and you called yourself a regular person. These are not regular people.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

But I think people that enjoy beer, and that's the key thing. And because we want to get feedback on that. Because I think the the worst thing a brewer can do is say, my beer is the best in the world, uh, it's better than anything else, I'm not gonna listen to anyone else. And then people can do that, you know. But I mean, I think our beer is really good, but I'm always taking input from customers here on what they like, what they don't like about our different beers. And we might be fine-tuning them a little bit, depending on TV. I think that's that's so important for the a brewer to have, even a legendary brewer, to have an open mind about uh what he's brewing.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Can you talk to some of your the tasting panels you've had in the past? Because this has always been a part of your fabric, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Oh yes, all the all the time. I mean, we we used to um uh at some of the breweries, I mean, for instance, with the uh with the with the James Squire, we used to have special brews that each of the brewers would come up with, uh, and we we would we would taste them at the bar, and if everyone liked it, then uh we would uh brew up two kegs of it and we take a keg out of the local pub and get further input from that. And so it was first it was input from the brewers, then it was input from all the other people that enjoy the beer before we then come up with a final recipe. So I think it's important to get a group input on something like that and and temper your own uh taste buds uh to respond to what uh what people are liking.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah. But I think um sharing that vulnerability, as Dad said, around, you know, we think our beers are really good, but we need to get that feedback firsthand, and if they're not, we'll listen to the feedback and we'll keep doing better. We can't be complacent, you can't rest on your laurels. And I think, you know, so far the taste tasting panel of regular people, it's actually elite.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Elite people like myself, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Uh it's it's been hugely, hugely valuable over this past year. Um, and I think there's been numerous times where we've had pilot recipes and wanted to get a bit of a decision point and feedback on should we scale this brew up? Should we package this brew? And there's been yeah, numerous examples of tasting panel being like, uh, yeah, definitely let's let's do this. I think there was even one example where I think we're looking at our Amarillo XPA and possibly our stout, superdelic stout. Yep, and we got a nod of approval from a tasting panel, and then within it was about three weeks. Brew design packaged. And we're like, yep. So we moved pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, being part of that, that was that was quite a special moment as you guys had said it's like we went out in the back into I mean, and explain explain what the pilot brew kit that you have is like how big is that?

SPEAKER_03 16:57

That's that's a 20-liter, it's a what we call a grain father setup, and it's automatic controls on it. It's just very elite home brewer setup. Yeah. And we do all of our test brews on that, we do a number of test brews, and then we scale up from 20 liters to 1500 liters. That's so cool. And uh that's the trick to be able to scale up and get the same results, and we've been uh very uh Pete's been great on that. Uh so it's always uh working closely with our head brewer.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

I will say, and I won't reveal any of the details, but um in as we are recording today, we uh were having a panel earlier, and there was one in particular beer, I think this was the second or the third iteration that we had had, and the the difference of being like we saw promise in the first part and we we chewed the fat, but then I can say for sure this particular beer, which we will reveal at some stage, um, had just launched, and it was uh for me personally, it was very special to be a part of that elite part of the group, it's it's it's sticking now. But but what in that moment, what what did you um and I know this will mean nothing to the audience because they won't know what we're talking about, but but talk more generally, it what do you get from that group of people when you give the first iteration which you know is half cooked? Yep. What do you get from the feedback? Does it does it change your course and and how?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, um, so I think you know, one example was we had a a uh there are a couple of examples, right? But the the one example I'll share was a version of a stout that we had. The super delicate uh which was you know really delicious, and there was a really great um kind of base that we all tried, but we just wanted something a bit more, and so um looking for kind of more berry flavours, a bit more hot character coming through. And so, based on that feedback, we yeah, tasted more beer, collaborated, did a couple more um recipe iterations, and it's now just a brilliant beer, the super delic stout.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, if you can get your hands on it, do try it. Obviously, speaking to our listeners at the moment. So, okay, looking forward. Okay. What are we what are we hoping for? What are you what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah, well, I think dad kind of um highlighted it earlier. What we've really done, I guess, in this first um year and a bit is test the brand, test the product, start to um build some, I guess, Chuck and Sons evangelists out there when they come to the tap room. Um, and then we've got a um pretty selective, I guess, wholesale footprint. Now it's the time to um expand that even more. Um so yeah, spreading our wings, getting our product into more places. Um so yeah, more people can experience what is chocolate size.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Can you recognize yourselves now to a year ago when this tap room was you know barely plastered and there wasn't this nice wooden table in here and the kettles weren't in here yet? Like, can you recognize that? Does it feel so long ago, even though it was only a year ago? Does it feel like a long time?

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Yeah, it feels like a long time. I mean, consider we opened last May. I mean, it's a lot of work establishing. I mean, the the brewery takes up only about maybe a third of our space. The rest is for entertaining, socializing, and enjoying beer. And so that's the key thing is how we organize that to move it forward. And as as Scott mentioned, I mean, our key thing now is how we expand our business so more people can enjoy our park at home or in other pubs. That's the key thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

I get so excited when I say, I mean, I am obviously I'm one of the evangelists of Chuck and Sons, but I you know, when I saw the Alpine uh hazy IPA in the uh terminus hotel in Piedmont, that was an exciting moment for me. Lastly, when you're talking to that, how we get people to enjoy it. Um, firstly, tell us where people can get it if they want to try it. And secondly, what are the things you're doing here in the tap room? Because this just almost feels like an extension of the living room and the things you're doing, quiz nights, whatever, but there's cool things.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Well, I guess you know, you we can have a have a cop-out responses, all good, elevated, curated bottle shops, uh, high-end restaurants, and but online, of course, as well. Absolutely. You get our products online. We've also got uh Chuck's Beer Club, which is uh just launched a couple of months ago, which is a beer subscription. So each month, um Chuck, you know, based on the the weather and what he's feeling like and what's tasting good, you know, we have a curated case that comes your way, which is quite cool. Couldn't you know I'm member double o seven. You you are double seven, double eight?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

No, double oh eight. I just realised I signed off your my email the other day as double oh seven. I obviously thought very highly of myself.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

In in Halloween, have you dressed up as double oh seven? No, but a little now. With a chuck and something like that. So obviously online if you want to give it a try. We do ship Australia wide as well. In terms of our tap room venue, there's always something on. So anything from your classic meat raffles on a Friday night through to a vinyl night on a Thursday night. We've even got a permaculture club that comes in once a month on a Wednesday, chats all things, chickens, you know, city beehives, feeding your family. Like it's it's pretty it's pretty fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, that sings to a um a couple of episodes ago we did an episode on um on like the hobbies in pub and we interviewed someone who did pub chess. But when they talked about like people who went to pubs to play Dungeons and Dragons. Oh yeah. Or ukulele clubs or choirs or where we often record our episodes, people at Point Hotel, we have to be out by a certain time so not to piss off the book club.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Like I love this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

That's what you the stuff that you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, no, we're and you know, during school holidays, we'll have crafternoons for the kids as well. That's obviously making artistic craft when it's at a craft brewery. Um we do monthly trivia nights, we've actually got one tonight, uh, movie nights. Yeah, we we're always looking for ways to um keep things interesting and you know our locals and um community engaged.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

All right, and if you sat if you poured one beer from the tap chuck to give to someone, what would you pour? And what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 23:32

You've got to try our pilsman. It's absolutely beautiful beer. Hopped with German hops and size hops. It's just very drinkable. Uh, a true style pilsman.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And would you give them a tip on life?

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Drink it and enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Awesome. Chuck Hahn, Scott Hahn, thanks so much, guys, for joining us. Thank you on Channel Tap, and I will certainly see you again soon. Well, cheers.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

So, yeah, fair to say, I'm a bit of a fanboy of the uh Hahn family and I mean honoured that uh I have got to spend some time with them and got to meet them, and they're just wonderful people. But uh Chuck's beer legacy, I mean, is part of um I guess shaped the taste and appreciation I have for beer back in the day with 150 Lashes, the Golden Chancer, you know, Hahn Super Dry, all of these beers, I think his legacy will long live on, but it's the stuff that they're doing now, which is you know some of his best work. Um if you were in Sydney, get down to the tap room in St. Peter's. Um, or if you're not, jump online, try and get it ordered. Hit me up if you can't, I'll try and find a way to get you the beers. But Pil Snow, you've got to hit up the Two World and the Old World lager, the ones that I need to, you know. I could keep going on. The Amber's awesome, the stout. Um, yes, so a huge endorsement from me. I am obviously a little bit involved with them in that I get to do some market research with the guys, but they are super cool, and um, yeah, I I have nothing but thanks to say for them for what they've done for me personally, but also for the beer industry. Now, I said at the very start, this show needs a new tagline. So some of the listeners may have received a message from me. I kind of went through my DMs and hit up maybe the last 20 or 30 people and sent it was a copy and pasted message. Um, but I've got some ideas going forward. I'll discuss them in greater detail next week, where I get back to kind of what I wanted this show to all be about, which is just sitting down, having a beer, and having a chat. Um, I still want to keep the beer content in there, but I also just want to, you know, enjoy some of life's greater conversations. So I'm gonna sit down next week with Michael Snitch, who you may know uh he was in one of the previous episodes, I think it was around episode 13 or so. We did a small bar special, uh, and we said we'd go do an episode at his home bar, snitch's bar. So I'm gonna be sitting down with him, my longtime friend. Uh we're gonna chat a little bit about the future of this podcast, a few exciting updates that's happening in in my world as well, and how that kind of feeds into the content or maybe is shaping it for the future. But what I need from you is do you have a new tagline for the show? I've been calling it the podcast about pubs and the people in them, but I don't want to lose the the audio side of things. So if you're sitting here now listening in in audio world, it's not going to go, and I'm gonna keep a focus to make sure that you don't need to be on YouTube. But I think there has been a kind of light opened up in my life that um there is a great visual element, there's there's a way that it can live on both, um, maybe separate things, separate um uh I don't know, content pieces for different things. So think of Chat On Tap is the show, you know, is it where good conversation lies, where um great things happen around a beer. I don't know. Um if you've got this far in the episode and you're hearing this and you've got a great tagline, send some through. Um if I have any next week, I'll uh I'll riff them with snitchy. But you can send them through on the DMs at Chatontap on Instagram, or you can email us hello at chatontap.com. Uh but as always, thank you so much for listening. Um I'm very excited about the new era trying to make this show sustainable because of course this is a hobby show. Um you can use the Buy MeACoffee um app if you wish to donate. I'll have that on the link in bio on Instagram or just email us or whatever. Anyway, I hate asking for coin. Uh now I'm just rambling. But um yes, thank you. If you are an audio listener and you have made it this far, uh stay tuned for next week where we talk about what the the future of Channel Tap is. Um, and as always, I will see you next week for a drink.