Inside Texas Education | Pam Little

What does it take to truly transform education? In this episode of The Ashley B. Cash Show, Ashley sits down with Pam Little, Texas State Board of Education Member for District 12, for an in-depth conversation about the future of K–12 education and the policies shaping classrooms across Texas.

Together, they unpack the recent State Board of Education meetings and discuss the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills (TEKS), curriculum reform, and the importance of moving from simply teaching students to ensuring they are actually learning. They explore why explicit instruction, phonics, and the science of education matter, while addressing concerns about scripted curriculum, excessive screen time, and standardized testing.

Ashley and Pam also dive into the growing importance of Career and Technical Education (CTE), entrepreneurship, financial literacy, and skills-based learning—giving students multiple pathways to success beyond the traditional four-year college route. They discuss how schools can better prepare students for high-demand careers while breaking cycles of generational poverty.

Whether you're a parent, educator, policymaker, or simply passionate about improving education, this conversation offers an inside look at how education policy is made and what changes could have the greatest impact on the next generation.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why TEKS shape every Texas classroom
• The debate over curriculum, pedagogy, and the science of learning
• How Career & Technical Education is creating new opportunities for students
• Why entrepreneurship and financial literacy belong in every school
• The impact of screen time and technology on student learning
• What parents should know about education policy and how they can get involved

About The Ashley B. Cash Show: The Ashley B. Cash Show features conversations with education leaders, policy experts, parents, teachers and reform advocates who are working to transform K-12 education. Host Ashley B. Cash brings her perspective as both a parent and business owner to explore systemic education issues and practical solutions for creating better outcomes for students, families, and communities.

About Ashley:  As both a mother and business owner, Ashley brings a unique dual perspective to education reform advocacy, driven by her desire for better educational outcomes for future generations and informed by her firsthand experience with the skills gap facing employers today. Her passion for transforming K-12 education stems from witnessing the real-world consequences of educational failures and recognizing the critical need for a system that prepares students for diverse career pathways, not just college. Through this podcast, Ashley champions solutions including aptitude-based education tracks, expanded school choice, practical skills integration, and alternative career pathways that align with students' individual strengths and interests.

Follow @AshleyBCashOfficial on Instagram & @Ashley Bowes Cash on Facebook.

Visit www.AshleyBCashOfficial.com for more content and features. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Ashley B Cash Show. I'm Ashley, and today I have an amazing guest who is a very dedicated lady who is the member from District 12 of the State Board of Education, Mrs. Pam Little. She represents the northeast corner of Texas. She was born in Childress, raised in Bryan College Station, and attended Texas AM University. She has spent the last seven years dedicatedly working for the people of her district on the State Board of Education. She has served on the Fairview Town Council, and she had a career in educational publishing, serving as regional vice president for Houghton Mifflin. She is a Christian, a wife, a mother to two, and a grandmother to four.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Pam, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ashley. Thank you for having me. I talking about education is one of my very favorite things to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Well, it is also one of my favorite things to do because, and I know that you and I share a desire to make education better for all students and to really get it focused on skills. And we have just rolled out of the June 2026 meeting of the State Board of Education, which was an arduous and long week for everyone. You all did yeoman's duty. You were there more than 16 hours a day for multiple days, five days of the week. And you guys really focused on the social studies teaks, the literacy list, right, and personal financial literacy teaks. We did. And um I know a lot of time when we talk about teaks, it's confusing to people. So teaks are the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. That's T E K S. And it is basically what we are going to teach a child in every subject at every grade. And it's critically important that we get that right. And then that then is used to create curricula. Correct. But there are teaks and there are teaks.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah. As I look at the teaks, one of the things that I focus on is we have a lot of teaching, but somewhere there's a disconnect with learning. So why where's the where's the disconnect? You know? I think a lot of it's in the curriculum. Yeah, it may be in the curriculum. I also think it's in the fact that you don't use it. You know, you you get taught it, but you don't learn it. Right. I think we're doing a lot of teaching, but we're not getting learning. Well, and I don't know why, but that's to me that's our big problem.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

No, and I agree with that. And in some of the new curriculums that have come out where it's very much a script with a timer, and they have to move ahead even if the kids aren't understanding it. That's that's a huge red flag.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

I'm so glad to hear you say that because that I voted against that curriculum for that one of those very reasons is that it's just too scripted and it's too content-rich so that the kids don't have time to practice to read. That's how you learn to read. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

It's practicing. Yes. I know why Blue Bonnet was created was because we don't have enough teachers. The teachers aren't, they aren't being taught as well as they were in the past. They're not having as much work experience coming into schools. There aren't there aren't opportunities for the teachers to enter under another teacher to actually learn the hands-on part of it. And so we've got teachers, and I'm not talking about the experienced teachers, but I'm talking about new teachers coming in. They don't have the skills that they need to be able to do the class prep, to run the whole classroom, to do every bit of it. They don't have the same methodology that teachers in the past had to be able to teach. And so blue bonnet, part of it was done that way so that these teachers can just from day one have what they need for each classroom every day. But then that hurts the teachers who are really well versed, who have the experience.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

And it hurts the students to be pushed on before they've mastered something.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

And I don't I don't necessarily mind the curriculum, it's the pushing of it, even when the kids don't understand it. It's the pedagogy of it. It is. And it's also the philosophy behind some of it. Like, I don't think it's always taking the true science of education into account.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

It's not.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Right? Like, and and there's a a scientist here at this event that was like, we have to go back to the science of education. That's a big part of the reason that these kids aren't understanding.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

One of the problems that happened is long about the same time things started going down, Texas did a w away with the reading academies. It's where teachers were getting that instruction. New teachers had to take it. And we've we've come back with the reading academies, but now what teachers are telling me is that the blue bonnet pedagogy doesn't follow what they were taught in the reading academies. And and I'm not enough of a reading expert to understand that, so I have to depend on the the ones that do. But to me, that that's a huge mistake. We're teaching them one way, but yet we give them a curriculum that's designed differently.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Well, and I was told by a teacher yesterday that her big problem is that like she teaches math, and the math that's in blue bonnet, um, it says do not give them direct instruction. Basically, the kids need to infer it. And I'm like, that doesn't work on any level. That the it's the philosophy of it. And I'm like, okay, so while the curriculum might be okay, we need to fix the philosophy and we need to fix the pedagogy, that's and we need to take the time constraints off of it, I think. Yeah, I think, and so I think there are ways that we can fix it by just fixing it instead of throwing the whole baby out with the bathwater so that we can get and have all of the things we need. We have what we need for newer teachers that don't have the experience, we have the correct pedagogy, we need to get the correct philosophy, right? And and then have the curriculum that has good things in it. And I think there's a way to fix it. Now, whether or not we can get people to agree to do that is a different story. People. Yeah, I agree. And I didn't think because I was very much for Blue Bonnet in the beginning because I was so against Amplify. See? And the Amplify, and it was my understanding that Amplify had come out and all these schools had bought this really expensive computer system. And then we said, hey, Amplify is full of CRT, it's full of DEI, it's full of LGBTQ. Um, that has been outlawed by the governor. So we went to schools, we're like, you can't use that in them anymore. And they were like, we've spent all this money, we have this whole computer system. And so Blue Bonnet was a rewrite to give something to go in that computer system that didn't have the CRT, the DEI, and the LGBTQ. And so from that standpoint, I was for it. And I know that it's been an avenue for us to bring back biblical references and our true founding documents and different things like that, but I still think that there are problems with it. Yeah. I think I would like to see for whatever that's where us get back to the science of education, to get back to the, I mean, it's we you and I both talked about, it's been since the 80s that we've seen this decline. Right. What were we doing before the 80s that worked? Right. Right? We were we were using the science of reading, we were we were doing explicit math training and explicit phonics and explicit vocabulary, and and I think that that's what we have to get back to and not timing.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

All right, I totally agree. And and I do think, you know, the the as we said, the no child left behind made a huge difference. Huge. It it uh didn't accomplish what it was supposed to do, and we need to look at that and completely that may be something we need to throw out the baby with the bathroom.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

I I wholeheartedly agree. I think I think that the no child left behind law that was established by the federal government about the same time that the Department of Education came into being, where they said we are leaving certain students behind, and we absolutely can't do that, right? We've got to raise all students, um, and the the premise behind it, no child left behind is a good premise. We shouldn't leave any of them behind. But we have to we cannot throw children of all levels into one classroom and expect it to benefit any of them. We've seen that it's not, it's not, and I would argue that it's actually leaving those kids that are behind further behind. I agree, and it's also slowing down all the kids who could be moving faster, and so I think that's something I'm hoping that the federal government, and when um Secretary Maman, she was here at this event, she spoke here last night. I'm hoping that that's one of the things that she will eliminate as she closes down the Department of Education and moves the the necessary parts of the Department of Education to other departments. She's moving some things to Department of Labor, some things to Department of Interior, Department of Agriculture. And I hope that we can we can eliminate that so that we can give explicit instruction to those kids that are behind. I think they actually need more resources. They do. And I think that they need to be elevated more resources with kids that are at their same level so that they can rise faster. And I think that that's something that's really critical. And and it existed before the 80s, before our decline started, and so I think it's something we've got to get back to.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Yeah. And one of the things that we had also talked about was um getting kids out of that generational poverty, which to me is just so important. And in my seven years on the State Board of Education, one of the things that we've worked on are what we call our CTE programs, career and technology programs. And we have over 400 career and technology courses in various fields of study so that students can take these courses in high school and leave high school with a certificate so that they can go out and earn a good living for their families. And as you and I have talked, not every student is college material, and they shouldn't be, quite frankly. We need somebody to fix our air conditioner and somebody to, when our pipes break, that can come through the edge. And those are really good jobs.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

They are very good jobs. One of the things that we have to change is the way that we talk about it, right? We can't say every child needs to go to college, and we shouldn't ask kids where are you going to college? That should not be our question. Our question should be what are you gonna do with the next part of your life? What are you passionate about? What what kind of job will make you happy? And we should we should validate those. And I think that some of these CTE, they're desperately needed in our communities. They are really, really amazing earning potential, more so than a lot of college jobs. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree with that. And another thing that's important to me, and I'm not sure that I had even talked to you about this, is entrepreneurship. Oh, me too. And one of the reasons it is so important to me is because my husband and I started a fence company out of our garage almost 50 years ago now, and today it is the largest fence company uh probably in Texas and definitely in the Metroplex. I love that. So um that's just near and dear to my heart, and and I feel like that um a lot of people end up being a small business owner whether they anticipate that or not. Right. And we're not doing anything to teach people to be a small business owner. No, and the one of the another thing that I did is I taught small business um ownership and management at North Harris County Community College for years in the in the vocational division. So if they were to get a associate of arts degree as a welder, but they're gonna be a business owner. And while they understand their craft, they don't understand how to fill out IRS farms, they don't understand how to talk to the banker, they don't understand the concepts of a lease. So how to put together their business plan in such a way to present it to someone. Absolutely. So I feel like that uh and and one of the courses of study that we have in here is entrepreneurship. And we have three different levels of it, and I just think that is so important uh for all of our students to understand that. And you know, you can a lot of the entrepreneurship courses are parts of the other courses in study. And the other thing that I like about these um courses of study is that the math and the science is taught within the context of these. Like we've got one right here on uh agrif agriculture, food, and natural resources. And you know, we always say you don't need a doctor every day, but you need a farmer three times a day. You do. So it's very important. But yet let's teach them the math about acreage, how to determine acreage, how to determine what percentages of chemicals you need in your in your fertilizer. You know, how much feed do you give a cow and how how much weight does that equate when you sell that cow? And those are things that are going to mean a lot more to a student than if we give them a problem about algebra and geometry, about two trains and which one gets there first.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

You know. I think we should be doing that in third grade, but yes, no, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

But I do think that we are are missing the boat when we when we just teach things um not in context. No, I hung. And um, and over the seven years that I have been on the board, that's something that we have worked um a great deal on. And I'll be happy to um provide this all for you electronically so that you might can share it with your viewers so that they can go in and look at this.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

And we will link the resources to all of those in my website, which is AshleyBcash.com, so they can get straight to but and I love this, you know, CTE. My thing is wanting to transform the K through 12 education system back to skills-based learning. Right. And to me, CTE, career technical entrepreneurship is a hundred percent um something that is absolutely needed, and it needs to be a higher priority, I believe. Yeah. Um, and what I love is these different courses that she was talking about. Um, instead of a child having to take algebra or geometry, there are actually math courses built into these that qualify as one of their maths that is required for graduation, but it will have be more applicable to a student's life or their desired careers. And um I love that. There's also sciences that qualify here. And so don't think that it just has to be chemistry, biology, and physics. Um, if you choose to take your child, if you and the child decide that there's a career that's better suited for them that's not college-bound, I would highly recommend that you pick one of these and pick the app the maths that apply and pick the sciences that apply instead of those others that will have no bearing on their future life. And I think that's just so much more important. And I love that you've been involved with that and been fighting for that because it's and and I appreciate the state legislature this year that they, you know, brought more finances to these programs. But one of the things that we've got to work on is y'all have done all this amazing work with these CTE programs and you've given them a ton of options, right? Yeah, entrepreneurship, right, agriculture. And I mean, there's accounting, there's real estate, there's um teaching, there's electrical, there's HVAC, there's welding, there's all kinds of CTE options. Now the question is, what are the schools doing with that? And I would urge um the parents out there to go to your school and make sure that they are picking CTE courses that your child can actually get a good job with. Because I see a lot of floral CTE. And while there are a few jobs for florists, and if you wanted to own a floral business, great, but how many do we need? Whereas, like, we need to be encouraging these schools to have CTE programs that are going to be either jobs that are in need or small businesses that are in need in our particular communities. And I think that is something that that local school boards and the administration in schools need to work on more is having really good relationships with their local community, getting advice from their local community on what your local community is needing as far as workforce, your local community is needing as far as businesses, and and taking your decision making about which CTE courses to have from your local communities. Right, right. You know, because you can you can have all these courses, but if they're not ones that are interesting to the kids, but also don't produce a job that can actually make money, then it's it's not doing the benefit that it should be.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

One of these certificates that is um especially appropriate for Texas is we have a whole certificate uh based on the energy cluster. Oil and gas technology, refining and chemical resources, all of these things that we have uh right here in our state. Yeah, and I think that was particularly important. And we did those, I think, just about three years ago. Okay. So that's a great job opportunity for the Texas students.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

And so, I mean, especially if you live in an area like West Texas or up around Dallas or down around Houston where there's a lot of oil and gas production, um, those are really great jobs, and kids can make hundreds of thousands of dollars doing that. And so schools in those areas should be looking at those CTE programs. But what would be even better is if the businesses involved in that industry would go to their schools and help them with those programs, make sure that they're teaching the skills that those kids need, make sure because skills change, especially in they do, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

They and that's one of the things that we do is we review these every two years. Good. And one of the things that that became obvious to me is I had um a teacher talk to me about an architect certificate, and she said part of the problem we have is that our students to get the certificate have to master a piece of outdated software, but to get the job, they have to know the new software. So that's when we went back and we said, okay, we're gonna review these every two years, and I think that's an important thing to do as fast as things change.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

A hundred percent, I agree with you, and I'm so glad that you guys are doing that and that you've gone to the effort to make sure that the kids are getting the skills that they need.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

And when we develop these standards, we always involve industry people. Like just recently, we developed some um for uh the medical field, but it was also firemen, fire fire training. And we actually went to Collin College and got them involved with it because they have a fire training school. So that's how we develop these courses is we we always reach out to industry or that somebody that's actually doing current work to advise us on these.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Well, and let's talk about that for a little bit because I think that's something that has been a learning curve for me is the TEAKS. And that is the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. So T E K S, Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. And so to understand, you have to understand when a piece of legislation happens or old legislation has happened, then it goes to the TEA, which creates regulation around the legislation or the piece of policy. And then it's actually the SBOE's job to approve the TEAKS, but you guys don't actually have staff. So you have a problem. Yes, so you guys do a lot of it yourselves. Right, we do. You bring in a lot of outside resources, but then you also rely on the TEA for some of it. Right, yes, right? Yes. And so the TEAKS, every TEAK, my understanding is that you all involve hundreds of people in the industry, teachers, all different levels of people involved in that particular subject, and they spend thousands of hours coming up with the TEAKES, and then it is brought to the SBOE for a vote. Right. Now, at the SVOE, members can bring additional TEAKS.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

They can, and they can amend the TEAKS. Yes. And as you can imagine with social studies, we saw a lot of that. Yes. But I always try to rely on the experts. Um, even though I have two degrees in history, I've never taught it in a public school setting. No. So it was really important to me that I had advisors who had taught in public school to advise me on that, which I did. I was fortunate. Um, had some great advisors. But that is the process, and um, you know, like I said, it it got very involved for social studies. And um next up for us will be math. And I I think that may be one of the things you were referring to when you were talking about that parents don't know the process anymore because the process changed. And you know, I've had parents tell me, well, to work a math problem like 262 minus 178, you have to draw a box and you have to put the hundreds in there, and you have to put the tens in there, and then you have to put the ones in there, and then then draw another box under it and do that same thing, and then you do some kind of calculation on the end of these boxes, and then you do a calculation this way, and that's how you get the right answer. Um, to me, it was much simpler the way.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

We did it and we borrowed and carried and got through it. And then if the child's not understanding it in school, if we do it the way that we've always done it, and by the way, the test scores were better when we were doing it the old way, but the parents could still help the kids in the way that it's being done now. I don't understand all of those boxes or what I mean. My kids literally would bring me math and I'd be like, What is that? It's like a grid. That doesn't make any sense. And I know it takes 10 times longer. It does. It's more complicated. I know. Like I don't understand how we could have ever even gotten there. So I'm hoping that's something we're going to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I've been on a math ad hoc committee to study the math teaks, and um one of the things that we discovered is that our TICs were too focused on processing it. Like you can you can work a problem seven different ways. And the important part of it was the number of ways that you could work the problem, not getting the right answer. And then we discovered that one of the process skills that we were missing was precision, which is the right answer. So for some reason, we've had these math standards for the last ten years now that have not been focused on getting the right answer, which to me is just amazing. Yeah, that's right. So that is that's my goal uh as we move into math is to be sure that we focus on the right answer, and that while yes, there are many different ways to get an answer, and that's a good thing to do because that's critical thinking. But in the end, the important thing is the right answer.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

And this is the other thing. It's my understanding that because we had all these processes, options, right? Seven different ways to get there. But some schools were like the teachers, like, I'm teaching it this way, and this is the way you have to do it, and if you don't do it, and if you don't draw it out and show it to me, it doesn't matter if you get the right answer, it's still wrong. And I think that we've got to put the focus back on the right answer, and it doesn't matter which process they use as long as they're getting the right answer because each process is going to work for a different child. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

And that is important to provide those options for each student. But at the end of the day, you need to get that right answer, and that's where I think these standards that we are working with now tended to drop the ball. And it was like, okay, if you can work this problem seven different ways, I like you said, I don't care if the answer is right, you were showing me the seven different ways you can work it. Well, that's great, but you know, getting the right answer is to me the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Well, and I think finding the one process that that child understands and getting the right answer is really the true um harmony, right? And the thing that will make that child better. Right. Because we all learn differently. Right. And so one process is going to appeal to one child more than another process, and vice versa. Right. Right. And so I don't think it's so much which process they use, but that right answer. Right. And I had a child who does math in his head. He's like got 150 IQ.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

And he was at a school where the um teacher was taking off 60% if he didn't write the process down correctly. And he's like, I don't do it that way in my head. And even if you make me write it down, it's not gonna be his process. Yeah. And so 60% was taken off. Now this he was in eighth grade, but it was a freshman-level class. It was gonna count for his college. Oh, yeah. And the teacher literally said to me, and it's really a shame because he's gotten every problem right all year.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

And I was like, What do you mean? Like on the homework and not on the tests? And he's like, No, on everything. He's gotten every problem right, but he's just not showing me the work that I want to see. And I was like, um, and you're taking off so you're failing him.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, that that's a little extreme.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It was extremely extreme. And I, you know, I get it. If you want to take off 10% or 20%, because they're not doing specifically what you asked, because we do need to teach them to have some follow some instructions, that still would have been a a B. Yeah. Right. And that would have been okay. Yeah. You know, but I was like, 60, you're failing him, and he's gotten every problem right all year, you know. And this is my kid who's dyslexic. So if you'd gotten if he'd gotten a 40 or 50 in English, I would have been like, uh, but in math, he's always been straight A's. And so I was like, what is going on? But it's just funny. But those processes, I'm so glad that you're fixing that in the teeks. Yeah. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

No, that's that's my number one goal is to fix that in the teaks. Um, because I just think that we've just and you know, unfortunately in education we do that. The pendulum will swing this way and it goes one too far this way, and then it'll swing back this way. And I wish we could sort of just keep it right in the middle and not feel like that we always had to do something extreme. Because like you said, you know, our kids back in the 80s, early 90s, they were performing well. And um, you know, I mean, and I do understand, you know, that there are a lot of different things now. And and one thing that that also concerns me is the amount of screen time that we are requiring from our students.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Because I'm with you. I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Well, I know there are a lot of education activists and moms who have been involved with this for the last six years trying to get that screen time cut down. Yeah. But the first thing we've got to do on that screen time is to get the star test off of a computer. Yes. Because you know, if you're a school district, you're gonna want that student to have experience on a screen if that's how they're gonna take the star test, and that's how districts get evaluated. So that's to me, and I keep telling these um folks that are working towards us, it's the first step is we've got to get the star test off of the computer. And then we can move forward. But until we do, I'm a superintendent, I'm gonna still want the kids on the screens.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah. It's my understanding that we kind of are going to be getting rid of the star test, and but we're replacing it with three other tests. And the same is true for that, right? Those also can't be on screen. Right. That's my well, no matter what the test is, it shouldn't be on screen. Yeah. You know, I think it's fascinating that in the United States we have what I'm gonna call the tech bros, right? Um, and I got that from a friend of mine, Robbie Kirkpatrick. But the guys in technology are pushing us to go toward more screen, right? AI screen learning. Right. Um, and yet you see countries like Finland and Sweden, which did that and went all in on computer learning, and now they've come out and said this has been horrific for our students, yeah, and they are dropping all screen learning except for computer class. Right. And I still think that you do have to teach computer learning. Yeah, well, I do too. But the science of education teaches us that younger kids shouldn't be on the screens at all. Right. And that it's really important that they learn to write, do handwriting, and move left to right and right to left across their body just for their brain to fully. And especially for the dyslexic students.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

A hundred percent. Yeah, they really need that movement, that continual movement that helps them learn to read. And the cursive. And the cursive and the cursive. And we did put cursive back in the curriculum in 2019. I'm so glad. And why anybody would have ever taken it out, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Because they thought we were all going to typing. Yeah. Well, but if you want to confuse a a person who's about 18, 20 years old writing cursive, they can't. It's like you've put something in a safe. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Um, but I think that's so critically important. I I personally, my personal opinion, for whatever that's worth, would love to see no computers in the classroom before sixth grade.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I think that, yeah. I think we'll be lucky if we can get it out K through three. But I think we need to shoot for K through six and hopefully we might get end up at K through three.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Well, as you and I both know from the last SBOE meeting in June, um, you guys have got to set the bar really high and hope to get about halfway there because I was amazed at the volume of people that came out and were just trying to destroy the teaks that had been created. And for for a variety of reasons. One, because they didn't want our biblical values as reference materials. They didn't like the literary list, they wanted teachers to have complete and total freedom of what they pick to read. There were people standing up saying that they didn't want their child to learn about Moses because he was a mythical figure. Like I was sitting there, I mean, my jaw was just on the ground. And it's amazing to see what you all go through and the hits that you take and the way that you have to negotiate to get the things that you do want in there. It was fascinating to me. You'd had testimony on Monday, then you guys started taking amendments on Tuesday. You did that nearly all the day Tuesday, all the day Wednesday into a Thursday morning to amend just the social studies and the literary list.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Yeah, I mean both n uh Tuesday night we finished at 1 30, and Wednesday night we finished it well that morning at 1 30. And you'd started at 8 in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Started at 8 in the morning. Yes, it's long days. Very long days. It's very um I hate from a business standpoint to say emotional, but it is.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

It's very emotional. Well, you're dealing with emotional topics. Yes. And uh and you have to understand that. And um, and I, you know, I understand that a lot of people have different opinions, but I do think it's important as a state board member that I show respect for people, even if I totally disagree with them, which there were many of them I did totally disagree with. But um, I do think we need to be respective of of another person's opinions.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Well, we absolutely do, and it's our responsibility as adults to show kids how to act, right? And I think that like I'm an advocate for having speech starting in kindergarten, even if it's just them standing up and telling their class about what they just read, right? But doing it all the way through so hopefully we don't end up with adults whose number one fear is public speaking, but also because moving that up into debate so people know how to do their own research about topics, they know how to look at it from both sides, and they know how to be a listener and listen for understanding, not just to rivet.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

And that's something that we as adults need to show kids how to do and how to act out. And so I do appreciate that when I was testifying and we brought a busload of ladies from Lubbock up to testify, and everybody did sit and listen, and then and then you guys got to ask us questions if you wanted to, and and I appreciated the process, but it's an arduous process for you all. Like we got to leave after we testified if we wanted to, and you guys were there 8 a.m. till 1 30, 8 a.m. till 1 30, and we were there again. I don't think you guys finished a night before 9 or 10 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

No, no, and and that was without any like hour breaks for dinner or anything like that. No more eating on the day we were stepping into the hall to go to the bathroom and shoveling something in. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

It it it was it was I think we had over 500 testifiers and each one would get two minutes. And then if a member asked a question, so you know, figure average three minutes per testifier, you know, do the math on that one.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, it's it's it's it was a lot of time, and it was if if if the viewers have never been to a state board of education meeting, I highly, highly suggest you go so that you understand the process. The last few years has been a huge education for me in how we get things into schools or get things out of schools, and the process is long and it takes years. The things that we're working on today, just planning to bring policy to K through 12 education, probably will not actually hit a school room. Most of it will not hit a school room for at least three years, if not five years.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah. Well, the social studies take in the literary list are scheduled to be in the classrooms in 2030. So that's four years. Four years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And like there, there are other things though that are easier to enforce. For example, um, Representative Caroline Fairley, this last session, so that was in 2025, brought a bill that removed phones from classrooms. Right. And um, that was able to go into effect this past school year because it was an easy thing to do. It didn't require a lot of curriculum preparation and different things. And and that has been a fabulous thing for school. Every teacher that I've talked to, and actually most all the parents and most of the students. I think everybody likes that. Yeah. Yeah. And I know students and some parents were very against it in the beginning, but it has turned out to be great. You actually see kids now having relationships with other kids, having conversations. Right. They actually have to talk to each other because they don't have a phone to look at. And the communication skills are going to be better as a result. Their relational skills will be better. I just think well, that's going back to the screen situation. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Well, um, would you go ahead and tell everyone how they can get a hold of you, if there are questions that they have about the state board of education, if there are suggestions they would like to make to you, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Well, first of all, uh let me say that I have been honored to represent the people of District 12 and have had the privilege of doing so for seven years, and that's very important to me. Um, if you want to get in touch with me, my uh email address is pam.little at sboe.texas.gov. And that comes directly to my inbox. Um, just keep in mind, as Ashley said, we do not have any staff, so uh it's just me answering your emails.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

So it may not get back to you in 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, right. Um, and but when you do get an email back, it's from me. It's not from staff, and it it may be short and sweet. It may say, I agree with you, but this is the problem. I mean, I I guarantee you it'll be a short and sweet one. Yeah. But I do try to answer as many emails as possible.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

So I appreciate you. Well, thank you for your service to our state. I really appreciate what you're doing. I know that it's a lot of hard work, and it's an unpaid position.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

It is an unpaid position, and sometimes I think we have to even fight to get our expenses reimbursed. It has to go through several different processes, and it's like, well, you know, I'm I'm obviously you can see where I am and what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I was there for, you know, 17 hours. Well, and you you don't live in Austin, which is where your SPOE meetings are, so you have to have a hotel, you have to figure out how to get to Austin. Yeah. And that's just for the meetings. That's not all the preparation work against the meetings or meeting with the specialists, and who knows how much travel you have to do or they have to do to get to you to do that. So there are expenses, but but again, it's still not paid. You're doing this because you believe in our education system and our students.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yeah. So thank you for that. Yeah, well, I love doing it, and I think um it's important that we get all of our students in Texas educated. We have 5.5 million students in this state, and they all deserve a good education, and I feel like that's my job. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And thank you for joining us here today. Really appreciate you tuning in. Next time we will be discussing more ways that you can transform the K 12 education system. See you then.