Portia Louder; Born to be Brave

Portia Louder is a writer, speaker, photographer and advocate and spent almost five years of her life in federal prison. Portia works with at-risk youth, and people struggling with addiction. She authored two books titled: Living Louder, a Compassionate Journey Through Federal Prison, and Born to be Brave: A Compassionate Journey Through Life.

Portia found the grit to climb out of some seemingly impossible situations, and describes those situations with deep affection. How do you fight despair and learn to meet the world with a loving heart? Portia teaches us those lessons discovered in federal prison.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Lipstick and Legacy, a podcast where your story matters and your journey has purpose. Together, we lift and inspire our communities one story at a time. Today I have Portia with me. Welcome, Portia. Thank you. It's good to be here, Julia. So I am very excited about this interview. I have I started following you just on social media, and your reels would pop up. And generally, I don't read like big long excerpts that people put out. However, yours, I read a few sentences and I couldn't stop reading. Your videos are very well done. As somebody who's come from a background where there's some hard stuff to talk about, you openly talk about the things that you've been through. And for me, that is so refreshing. It's terrifying for most people. So thank you. Um, Portia, can you just tell me a little bit about yourself, where you're from, just your your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

For me today, I live in Saratoga Springs, Utah, and I have five children. I also have a son that I place for adoption, and they range in ages from 18. So I gave birth to six children, just to be clear on that. Um, they range from ages 18 to 36. And then I have three grandchildren, and um I do uh a lot of uh I guess mental health recovery coaching. I work with people who are leaving prison and I teach classes in prison, I speak a lot in those spaces, work with youth, at-risk youth, and I guess I just get asked to do a lot of speaking. Um, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'll be speaking at women's conference, and none of this is anything I planned. It just kind of found me based on my life experience, which prior to this whole experience that we'll talk about, I was a photographer. And my business was I had I was photographing about 200 weddings a year in Utah. So it was a lot of weddings. Um, and then I got involved in real estate, which is what led me to prison, which we'll be talking about today. So that's a little bit about me.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Okay. Um, so in your social media posts, you talk about these experiences of in prison. I want to talk to you a little bit about when um everything changed for you. So you were a real estate agent, you were married at the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I wasn't an agent, I was an investor. So I was looking, my parents kind of dabbled in real estate investment. And so for me, and a lot of people think that I was an uh agent, but I wasn't licensed. I was running my photography company, and then I started my first thing was I'm gonna buy a lot and make some money. Like this is at 2004, 2005, where things were moving so fast, and I had just built a new home to kind of accommodate my studio. And I and I was watching, you know, lots in the neighborhood just bump real fast. And so I purchased a couple lots, flipped them, and then eventually I got involved in what was called equity deals at the time, where investors would come to me. I would find a house that would appraise for a lot more than they would pay for it, and then they would get a loan on the back of it. They'd get the loan for the house, and then they'd get an additional loan and pull cash out of it. And life changed for me. I would say probably the most dramatic change was when the FBI showed up at my house. Um, pretty devastating. I don't think anyone ever wants the FBI to show up at their house. Uh, I know that I didn't. And, you know, I had fought my way out of some really hard situations in my younger years, like just to get where I was, to be married. My I had been a young single mother. I had placed a child for adoption, I had struggled with addiction. So for me to get on top of that and start my own company, and then I just felt like they were trying to steal everything I had. You know, it just felt like, oh my gosh, I can't do this. Like you'll, you're gonna just destroy me. It'll take everything from me. And um, my youngest child was three months old when the FBI showed up at my house. And uh there really aren't words. I think I was physically sick for days. I couldn't get out of bed. Just the fear and the it just seemed impossible. I mean, on top of the fact that you're going to, you know, they basically told my husband she's going to prison. And if you don't work with us, we will wrap you up in a conspiracy too. So then I'm, you know, my husband was just so lost at all of it. He wasn't involved in it, but he was in the home and he saw what I was going through, and he was just like, what? I mean, he's very conservative. So what is happening? Um, and then financially, you know, at that point I have to go hire attorneys and and it just drained us. I mean, the market crashed and it drained us financially, it drained us emotionally. And there was a time where I just didn't think our marriage would survive, you know, it was just that rough. Um, I watched my little ones grow up hearing about the FBI and lawyers coming around, and I just kept fighting. Like that's all I knew how to do was fight, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Back up a little bit. So before the FBI came, I've had this actually the same experience at my house. Um, I didn't think that this was like a shared experience for a lot of people, but I actually think it happens more than we know. Most people don't go on social media and talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

That's the truth. Because just up the street a week ago, the FBI showed up at a neighbor's house. People are like, hey, did you see all the badges that showed up? And I was like, wow, no, I didn't know. And it's like, I'm so grateful it's them and yeah, sad for them.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Was there a warning before? So I had the FBI, um, it was actually the Federal Trade Commission that showed up at my house. Same thing. I had a newborn infant in my arms, um, basically beat down the door, run through your house like crazy people, and you're just clinging on to everything that you have. Was there any uh warning for you before this that kind of gave you some red flags?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Like how did you I heard I was under investigation when I would go to title companies and try to close houses, and they're like, Well, we have like we can't close in this for you, certain title companies, others were fine. But they were like, Yeah, we hear first there was just rumor where we heard you're under federal investigation. I actually went and hired an attorney because I don't want to be under federal investigation. Let me go talk to an attorney and show them what I'm doing and make sure it's legal. And they said it was. And then they called and said, Well, you could talk to a criminal, we're a real estate attorney, but since you're what you're talking about is criminal, let's get a criminal attorney involved. I talked to the criminal attorney and he's like, You're just not that important. Like, I don't know why you think that they're following you around. And I said, I didn't say I think they're following me around. I said that I'm hearing that I'm under federal investigation and I don't like it. And he's like, Well, you're not that important. And my husband goes, That's not good enough for us. Like, we need a little bit more. Like, she's not that important. That's good to know. And he basically said, just keep things under the radar, like, quit being so out there, quit talking about it. It'll go away. And then the FBI showed up. And then I called him and said, apparently there's a federal investigation. They had not indicted me yet. Uh, I can't remember if they'd already opened the grand jury investigation, which is part of a federal process, like where it's an independent situation. It's not like you actually get to go in front of a jury. They just present the information and the jury always um votes to indict, right? That's the pre-process to the conviction. So um, and so when I went and talked to my attorney and said the FBI showed up, he said, Yeah, let's go talk to the prosecutor. Let's go see again. They thought, well, this isn't that big of a deal. So we went in to meet with the prosecutor, and when we went in, the the whole room was packed with FBI agents, the prosecutor, uh state agents. And I was like, huh? And my attorney's like, uh, hold on a minute, like something more is happening here. And that's when everybody just went, uh-oh, this is a bigger deal than we think. And I'm like, it would have been good to know that a little sooner.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

So I think people um who haven't experienced something like this, they don't understand all of there's so many moving parts to this. Finding the right attorney, there's federal trade commission attorneys and there's defense attorneys, and there's like all these different kinds of attorneys. The process is slow when it's dealing with federal um issues. Ours was federal as well. And it was it was my husband's issue in that sense, but they're very secretive, they have all the resources in the world at their fingertips. If this was the case, they don't go home and not eat, but to defend yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

So, like you're yeah, we lost everything with that. Yeah, you're right. If you're really fighting a brick wall, you're not fighting anything that you could ever get through. There's no, but because I had fought my way out of addiction and other things, like all I need to do was fight, you know, and looking back, I would have saved the money and just pled guilty because you're they're gonna get you either way. You know, it's not I it went on from I didn't go to prison until my daughter was seven and she was three months old in my arms. Like that's a long time, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

It's a long time under constant stress too. So it's you're three to seven years old. So you're talking about a four-year span, and these things kind of ebbs and flow, like there's these moments, and then you don't hear anything and you think it's going away, and then the next moment you're like, okay, it's gonna go away. And so that's really difficult. So you went from three three, your child, your younger.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

So it was seven years, it was seven years, and it was um, I mean, all my my I had a five-year-old and a seven-year-old, and those kids grew up hearing FBI and you know, mom's going to prison, and that their friends would tell them at school, your mom's going to prison. I mean, it's just it's just rough, it really is hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And so we can talk a little bit about this. I knew this would be a fascinating interview with you just because you're such an incredible communicator. So you go to you go to trial.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

No, I didn't. So I planned to go to trial. They indicted me, I think it was 2010, 2011. They uh ended up superseding the indictment and including my husband in a conspiracy. So now I'm really facing a hard situation because if we both go to prison, then we lose the kids. And the thing that was so hard was that it was really, if I would have pled early, I would not have probably they would not have indicted Chad. Like that was so there was a lot of pain in that choice for me. Like, what have I done now or even further? So I just figured I'm gonna fight, I'm gonna go to trial, and I'm gonna take the full bullet here, and I'm probably gonna go to prison, but at least my husband won't, and he'll be here with the kids. And we could not get the government after they indicted to agree to a no-prison time for Chad. The only thing they would agree to was if you both plead guilty, we'll let you go to prison and then him after you. And that seemed really tough. And so I said, no, we're fighting. And three weeks before my trial, I was taken into custody. It's a longer story, but they basically revoked my pretrial release and put me in a county jail. And when they did that, um they locked me up for about three months and and said they were doing a mental evaluation. And it turned out that they wouldn't let me out until I pled guilty, basically. So I did plead guilty. I'm glad I pled guilty. I, you know, the way it works is everyone loses with the feds, and I would have gotten more time. So I'm glad that I pled, but I really had to be forced into that plea, which made me mad. Once I got out, I was like, wait, that was because they had argued that I was too unstable to be released from the jail. But as soon as I said I'll plead guilty, they let me out that day. So I was like, You got healed, you were miraculous. I was healed. As long as I plead guilty, I'm okay. So that was hard. Um, but in the end, you know, I should I needed to plead guilty. Yes, was what I needed to do. And so I was sentenced six months later, they let me out on pretrial or on uh I guess, yeah, pretrial at that point. And I when I was sentenced, it was the max. They gave me seven years. So and that was I don't know. Anyone that's been in a courtroom, if you've been through this experience, you understand it's one of the most sterile, shocking, sad experiences because you stand there and it's just like you against your holding country. You just feel so low, and it's it's really painful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

So in my situation, when my ex-husband had, we were married at that time, went to prison. I had six children under the age of 12. And I know how difficult that was, even though they were little, it was they I know they could sense that stress and have some understanding. Before you went away, before you went to prison, how did your children deal with this? How did you talk them through it? And what would you wish you had would have done to prepare them better?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

I wish I would have done so much different, so much, but you just can only do what you can do, right? And so I remember the day I was sentenced. Oh my goodness. Makes me want to cry for my kids that I didn't prepare them. Like I just kept on going and thinking, we'll get through this, we'll get through this. And I really didn't believe before I walked in the courtroom that there was any way he would sentence me to seven years in federal prison. I just I thought I don't have a criminal history, maybe a year, maybe two. But when I walked in and he gave me the seven, my kids and family were not prepared for that. That was just a real big shock. And I was fortunate, he gave me eight weeks to say goodbye to my kids. And I have so many regrets that I of things I didn't do better. I remember the first thing I did was I told um my daughter Sadie looked at me. My husband hadn't pled guilty yet. And she said, she was 12, and she said, Is dad going to prison too? And I said, No, baby, he's not. And she goes, but I don't believe you anymore, mom, because everything you said wouldn't happen, did. And I remember being physically sick. And I that night I looked at each of my children and I walked into my husband. I said, You have to plead guilty tomorrow. They have to know that you aren't going to. They have to have that safety. And Chad was so sad. His attorney and I said, We don't have this option anymore. Because Chad, I really don't feel like Chad was guilty. Like, but I mean, I guess if with the way that a conspiracy law works, if you live in the same house, you're guilty, right? So I just he just took that bullet. Now, what was a total blessing, he wasn't sentenced until I went to prison. He didn't get any prison time. Like they they knew that he wasn't guilty. They gave him probation, which is great. But we didn't plead knowing that. We pled thinking he would go to prison after I think because the judge gave me the max, they just felt like they got their pound of flesh and they moved on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

I also feel like if they if they um indict somebody, they want that win, no matter what that looks like. And we had the same situation where after my ex-husband had gotten his sentence, which was a life sentence for white-collar crime, it was the highest in the country for for his type of crime, they came after me saying, Oh, well, your your name was on some of these things. And I'm like, I have no idea like what you're even talking about. So by the grace of God and through many miracles, I was um able to stay home with my children. However, it's very difficult for children to understand prison. And I would first of all walk me through what it's like when they take you and you go and you go that first day, and then what it's like when your kids have to come see you there.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, the first day, it's so stark. I was in the prison yesterday here in Utah speaking to people. And I said, there's a big difference in walking through the front doors and when they bring you come in through the back, like when they shut the door behind you, or you come in in chains and shackles, because if they move you around, you come in in chains and shackles. And they all nodded their head. Like you would know that if you've been through it. But the minute the door shuts, you are closed off from the outside world. You realize you feel buried. It's like I can't, I mean, I don't know how to explain it except devastating. Devastating is the most accurate word, heartbreaking to be separated from the the people that you love. I could not see how I was going to survive a week, let alone seven years away from my children. All I could see was their faces, just so devastating. Oh, yeah, it's it's you wonder why people in prison walk around angry. Are you kidding me? That pain drives you to places that you can't even believe. Like it's it's unbelievable. And I was four months in before my family could come to visit. And that first visit, first of all, it was sad for my kids because I remember my daughter saying, Why did they treat me that way? I didn't commit a crime. Why did they pat me down and yell at me for the wrong shoes? And I mean, I've got teenage kids, they're going, What? And then um, you know, the thing about being imprisoned and having a family visit is it's like for just a minute, you feel like yourself again. Because when you're in there in a you're in a uniform with a number and everyone calls you your number or your last name, you are have lost your identity. And when your family comes, you feel like yourself again. And when they leave, that's ripped away from you. And you watch your family walk away. And it's so painful. I honestly didn't know if I could do it twice. I was like, I don't know if I can have you come back. It broke me to pieces, you know. And my children, my children started crying. It's just so awful.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Oh, it's hard to I compare it to um revisiting death over and over and over and over again. And one thing, so with my little children, first few visits, I'm like, these guards treat them like garbage. And same thing, maybe there's a lockdown at the prison, and you just traveled eight hours to get there, and now you can't go visit them, or you don't have you have an underwire brought on, or they don't like your day. Right. It's very stressful for children. It was stressful for me as an adult going into those visits. And I that's something that's horrible about the prison systems. I know they say they try to keep them close by and that they're all about the family. That is not true.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

14 hours away and 30 hours away at the two prisons I was at. Like there's no way that they could drive. It was too hard on kids. So they'd have to fly in the expense. You've lost everything. We had neighbors that donated tickets so they could come see me. Like it was just, it was sad, you know, it was sad. But then again, there's people with way worse than that. So I mean, that's you start to realize like as sad as it is for my kids, there's people that haven't seen their kids for five years in prison, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And I think that too, like I was um, my children after I decided that I was not going to go visit anymore, they had grandparents that took them every time. But then I look back now and I'm like, for 13 years, every single Easter break, Christmas break, three or four-day holiday, they were in a prison.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, I didn't want that for my kids. I I remember my kids coming out there and um one of the visits, and I could just see how miserable it was for them. And I was like, you guys deserve not to be here. Like you did not do anything to deserve to be here. Like, I love to see you. So it was once a year when they came out. Chad brought the kids, and that was plenty. I, as hard as it was, and it was hard to watch them grow up without me. I'm like, they deserve to have a life. They do not need to be in a prison on holidays. I just didn't want that. That's a great way to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I actually really appreciate your perspective on that. So, how did you feel when this was all happening? I know it can be really hard to live in a community and have the eye of the neighbors and the school teachers and the church people. How did that play out for you? How were you able to get through that side of it before you went?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah, I think I was really fortunate because I was my this isn't necessarily fortunate, but my case was on the 10 o'clock news. So once it was out there, I decided, what do I have to lose? I am just gonna post, and people just don't know what to say or do when all that happens. And you, I think they want to help, but they don't know how. So I just posted on Facebook. I was just sentenced to seven years in federal prison. I probably deserve what I got. It's devastating. I will be leaving my husband and children in Utah and anyone that's willing to show kindness and compassion to them, I would appreciate. And I was just so open about it. People reached out, principals, counselors, and then I was blogged from prison. And that was my way of staying connected. And here's the thing: I didn't at that point, I was so broken, I just didn't care anymore. I was like, I don't care what you think, I don't care if you think poorly of me. I know that I made these mistakes. What I care about is my husband and my kids. Please wrap around them. He's gonna need it, they're gonna need it. And people showed up. I know there were comments made. Chad, you know, there were comments made, they there were things that were said, but I chose just not to care because I mean I cared, but I couldn't do anything about it. And the my highest priority was my children.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And so I actually, considering the circumstances, ours was very public as well. People, especially in our church community, were very helpful and really got me through those dark times. And I am so grateful for being able to choose that I'm not gonna care anymore. And I think that's why you have the ability to speak out now.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's freedom and it gives other people like they don't feel so alone that are going through because there's more people than you think. According to what I heard recently, one in three people in this country have a felony in one way, shape, or form. So there's lots of kiddos that, you know, maybe it was in their past and it was something simple, but it it can't be, there's just not that much difference between a person walking down the street and me. One person got caught and one didn't. I mean, there most people do something they could get caught up in. And I get it. I mean, I made the mistakes and I have to own it, but there were a lot of people around me. Were way guiltier that didn't get caught up. Although I I would rather be me. Like when I see their lives, when I came home, I'm like, okay, my life crashed in burb, but I built something new. And when I see all of that garbage going on, I'm like, I'm glad that's not where I'm at anymore. You know?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Once you get into prison, you're there and you are broken, it's horrific. I don't even know how you survived there, honestly. I just don't know. Can you give me a couple examples of times when you saw or heard things that you just didn't know if you could get past and how you turned your time into something that was for good? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

When I first got there, I remember there were things that were shocking, right? It's just not something I was used to. So I had neighbors right next to me that literally would beat each other up. Like they were the thing about female institutions is a lot of the women's are codependent and they get in um girlfriend relationships. And that's not something I was used to seeing in such a dysfunctional way because we're all dysfunctional. We're away from our children, we're away from our families, right? Some more than others. Some of them have grown up in the worst environment, and some of them have been beat and in domestic violence situations, and then they do that to each other. And so here I am hearing this violence going on next door, and I'm like scared and uncomfortable. And I think, well, how is I'm new to prison, so I talked to my counselor about it. My counselor tells some another person that was in prison, another inmate, and the inmate told the whole unit. And so they put up a sign that said louder's a snitch right outside, louder's a cop. And I remember during count one time, which is you have to stand there and the officers walk around and count you. They were on the other side of the unit, and this girl comes out and she was pretty imposing. She was really a bigger woman, and she was like, Louder's a snitch, woo, woo, woo, but a cop in the unit. And I remember sitting in my cell knowing the count was gonna clear and everyone was gonna walk out feeling physically sick. And my roommates are looking at me like, what have you done? And I made a decision right then. I'm walking out with my head held high. The only thing they could do is hit me, and I'm okay with that, but I'm not gonna hide. So I walked out and the girl spit on my shoe. She looked at me and she went, like that. And I was like, I just walked right past. And I walked over to the wreckyard and I walked around and I prayed and prayed and prayed. That was probably the first most uncomfortable situation that I encountered. But I would say I just learned. I learned, I prayed, I found lots of great people. And I had a staff member there that was so supportive and just really taught me. Like I went and talked to her. I'm like, she goes, that was wrong of the counselor. You shouldn't have done that. But at the same time, that girl's not gonna do anything to you. She has a job here, she's really lucky to have. And if she hurts you in any way, shape, or form, she's going to the shoe, she'll lose her. So she started putting things into perspective for me. Yeah, they're gonna harass you, but you're not gonna get beat up. And I never did get beat up in prison. So for me, it was like, okay, so now I know what the boundaries are and what I'm dealing with. So I learned a lot from the other women, but that's just the navigation of prison. The emotional pain of being in prison is so devastating. And what I learned is the only way out is to walk through it. Like I cried and cried and cried and prayed and and I, oh, it's painful. It was the most painful thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Talk about your faith just a little bit. So you said you remember the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yeah. You went in, where were you at with that? And when you came out, how did that look differently or was it exactly the same?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

I was very active in my faith. Fortunately, before I went in, when I was younger and I got through my addiction, I became active and I never doubted God and I never doubted my faith in the church. Um, I was open and honest with my bishop and state president about what was going on. And those are like the leaders of your church. Yes, my leaders of my church. Leading up to going to prison, I was really open about what was going on, and they were very supportive. Like a lot of people would say, Oh my heck, you're a member of that church, and you went to prison, but they were really supportive. Like our congregate, our church congregation prayed and bastard for us and supported us any way they could. And I was active when I got to prison. Um, there were a few members at the prison in California that I was at, and there were volunteers that came in and I prayed like crazy. I drew closer to God, but when I got transferred to a prison in Minnesota, I was the only member there of my church. And but that's when I really dialed into my connection to my father in heaven. And what was really cool is I connected to women of all different faiths, and I really learned that it doesn't matter if you're Muslim, Jewish, LDS, Catholic, we all have something deeper that we connect to. It's this common ground of who we are. And I felt so connected to the women and loved them so deeply. I didn't, religion became less important to me. I wouldn't say less, I would say my faith became deeper. I still am totally um active in my faith, but my faith became grounded in something deeper than religion. And it was just this deep connection to God and to the other women. And so it was kind of cool because I didn't come home carrying what anyone in my church thought or what any. And I actually got up in church the first week I got back and said, Thank you for welcoming me back from prison. And everybody's just like, she's gonna talk about it. And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna talk about it. It changed my life, and I'm not gonna pretend something didn't happen that did, and I'm not gonna be sitting in here uncomfortable. If you guys want to be uncomfortable, go ahead, but I'm gonna be comfortable, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And you know, I chose to act in the kind of the same way. Just I had I walked in, I said, I can choose to own it or I can run away from it for the rest of my life. So I'm gonna show up, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:45

And that's that's the common theme right there is if you can face things, it won't have power over you, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

And so fast forward, you you know, you're grounded in your faith, you you serve your full sentence. And served five years. You got a year off for good time and a year off for um doing an art program. Okay, so I I wanted to ask you about your marriage as well, but we'll come right back to that. Um, so you you get out of prison, you go to a halfway house. Yeah. What is what does post-incarceration look like for you? What did that look like for your family? People are like, oh, they got out of prison and it's over.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

It's like, no, no, no, this is just yeah, it's just starting. Um, I didn't know my kids anymore. They were five years older. Like they were so different. Those are really developmental years, and it felt weird and uncomfortable. And I had to rebuild trust with them, right? And so um I had to start from the beginning and expecting them to just be okay. I mean, yeah, they were excited I came home, but then we have to get to know each other. So that took time. I was completely overwhelmed by the outside world. I didn't know what my future looked like. It was intimidating and scary. I was very fortunate, my husband did wait, and our marriage grew. And I know it's not, in fact, it's hardly ever like that, but my husband's pretty unique. And um I told him to leave. Like I said, you should go, you know, because honestly, that's too much to ask. But I think also Chad saw the fight that I put in. I always say, Chad's amazing to wait, and I was worth the wait. I put the work in. I really was. And I would tell people that in prison, they're like, my guy, I won't wait. And I'm like, are you worth the wait? Like, are you putting in the work? Like I fought, I grinded every day. I was up at 4 and 5 a.m. and I was reading and studying and praying. And and I really did go through a process of transformation and repentance. And I came home stronger and healthier and prepared to be a better wife and a better mother. And it's it's been a blessing to our family to reconnect when in a healthier way.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

So, how did you lead in prison? Once you got your footing, you you kind of figured out the system, how it works. There's all these hierarchies there in prison. There's these systems that are put in place there by the prisoners basically to survive. How did you help others while you were there? And at what point did you realize that you had the ability to do so?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Well, I'm the oldest of seven kids. So I know I'm a leader. I mean, I just I was like, I always joke, I was a gang leader at a young age, you know, because I ran that little crew of kids, but I was also um not leading people in the right way a lot of my life. And so I remember a therapist in prison saying, Miss Sauter, you might be the strongest leader of anyone I've ever met. And that's a lot to say in prison because there's a lot of leaders in different ways, right? She said, You better be careful which way you lead. And I and I thought that's so true because in real estate I had a lot of people following me doing what I was doing. And but I really got myself healthy first. Like I started to work on me and rebuilding my character. I studied a lot, I wrote a mission statement, I set goals, then I set out to teach those things. I was like, this is working for me. I'm feeling better about myself, I'm getting healthier and stronger. And the women, I worked in education, I found roles that allowed me to serve, things that I enjoyed doing and also allowed me time to heal and grow myself. And women were drawn to that. You know, I think I wasn't a leader because people were scared of me. I was a leader because I loved them. And when people feel loved and understood, they'll follow you and seen. Like I could see their potential. And everybody wants somebody that sees their potential. So I think that just I became, and also they watched how I lived my life. Like they respect you if you I lived a disciplined life. I wasn't acting a fool in prison, you know. Now you could find somebody that that's scary that you might be afraid of and intimidated by in prison. And that's one thing, but it's another thing to be someone that is strong and independent and walking their own course that's willing to serve and help you. And so I just tried to be a leader servant, and I think I was. I think I was. So how did serving others during that time help with your healing? Oh, I think about halfway through my prison sentence, I took complete ownership for what my life. I recognize I am 100% here because of me, regardless of what the feds did or any unfairness, this was me. When I did that, I felt something shift inside me. Like I felt space inside me open up. And that's when I knew that I was there to serve. Like as soon as I freed myself by taking ownership, I went, I have an important purpose right here where I am now. And I think it also felt like if I'm willing to serve others here, people will serve my kids. It's like the I can't be there for my kids, but I can be there for someone else's kids, and someone else will be there for my kids. And so it just kind of worked that way. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

You've written Living Louder and Born to Be Brave. What do those titles mean to you personally?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Living Louder is, you know, I was called louder for five years all the way through my prison sentence, right? I mean, before prison, my name was Portia. After prison, my name was, I mean, through prison, my name was louder. And people would call me Miss Louder. Some people called me Miss Portia, but all the guards called me louder. And when I was trying to come up for a title, it's really cute for my book. I was working in drug treatment and the girls were reading my stories, and I gave them some different titles. And one of the girls, she goes, It's living louder. We love you, Living Louder, it's living louder. And I was like, Okay, it's living louder. So that's how I titled Living Louder. Um, my brother passed away, and that's when I wrote Born to Be Brave. And that book is about my brother. I mean, it's about the people I've met since I came home from prison, but my brother was the bravest person I've ever known. And when we were kids, we were both so brave. And I just I feel like um it needed to be that. Like everyone said, make it loving louder, do it a different louder spin. But I knew in my heart it had to be born to be brave because of my brother. And so his the born to be brave starts out with my kind of younger years and then it ends with the loss of my brother. And in the middle is a whole bunch of other people I've met on my journey. Um, living louder is really my prison story. It's like it, and you know, I wrote that book a year out of prison. Like I would probably add so much detail. I may rewrite it someday, but my heart was so full, I just had to write it. And that's how that book was born. So and how long has it been since you ended your service there?

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Uh six years. Yeah, I've been out of prison six years. So, a few last questions. So, post-incarceration, what does your life look like now? You're very active on social media. How has that, where has that taken you? Where what are you about now?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I am so dang busy. I I've helped start a company that people leaving prison get um enrolled in, and we get them housing and jobs and therapy and all the things. And so that keeps me busy. I'm also now working with Utah State University and teaching classes to incarcerated dads about parenting when they come out. Um then I have my social media stuff, which I just try to do on the side, and then I do a lot of speaking and volunteer work. And so, but my kids I'll say, I say, well, what I'll slow down. Like I still find time for grandkids and family. Um, I don't do as good a job as of taking care of myself, but I I had five years to do that. So um I I mean, sometimes I miss prison, honestly. I miss the simplicity. It was harder for Chad, I think, out here than me. Like I, it was painful, but it was also the easiest time in my life because I'm a hard worker. I'm I'm always working hard. And so I get up every day by 5 a.m., sometimes four, and I start working and I work a lot and I run around a lot, and that's just the way my life is. And my I told my kids, I'll rest when I die. No, you won't, Mom. You'll be busy then too. They're like, and and honestly, in prison, one of my bosses in there, she used to laugh because people would say, Why does Laura run around so much? And she goes, 'I think that's what she does in the outside, because prison's so slow. I'd be running from this unit to that unit, and I gotta get over there and put this paperwork together.' They're like, You don't have to act like that here. And I'm like, it's just the way I do my life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

So yeah. If someone is in their darkest moment right now, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

I would want to them to know that there's so much beauty on the other side of this. Like, it might actually be the most important thing you ever do to walk through this dark moment that I experienced transformation that couldn't have happened any other way. And I believe that me walking through the pain of being in prison and separated from my children, something different was born inside me. And I would say that you have an important purpose on this earth. And getting through this might be that purpose, might help you find what that purpose is. And do not give up. Like there's no way I could have seen the beauty on the other side of what I when I was in the thick of my darkness. I couldn't imagine a life this beautiful. And I believe that's available to all of us.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I think that when you tell your story over and over again, sometimes it can feel a little stale or you're tired of telling it. Sometimes I'm like, I just don't want to talk about it anymore. But it's such a huge part of your life. And there was trauma for your kids. My kids are grown adults now, and they're still dealing with therapy with their father who's out and how he's changed and all these different dynamics. How do you stay authentic when you do your social media, when you speak? How do you hone back in? Like this interview felt like you just got out of prison. Like I feel that authenticity.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

That's a good question. One thing I do is I go back to prisons, right? So that helps me stay connected to that um experience, I think. But also like I check myself. Um, and I don't feel like I do, I'm always doing the best job of that. Sometimes I feel like I get off track, but it is I every morning I get up and I have the same routine here that I had in prison. And I remind myself what really matters. And I try to stay grounded in the things that I learned, which we are so much more valuable than money and things and experience, like who we are is deeper. And I try to stay grounded in that. And I would say my favorite scripture is be thou humble, and the Lord thy God will lead thee by the hand. It's something I struggle with. And every day I remind myself, I'm the best version of me when I'm humble. I gained that in prison and I don't want to lose it. So I try to stay grounded in that too.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

I think it's interesting when you go to prison or somebody in your life goes to prison. And in my case, we lost everything. So I'm a stay-at-home mom with all of these kids, and suddenly I put into the role of provider. I lost the house, the car, everything. And it's amazing how, as those things are stripped away, you kind of grab onto these little crumbs. And eventually you're like, I don't even want to load up one more thing in the moving truck. Like, I can carry stuff. I just want the kids and I just want a warm roof over my head. And borrowing a car from somebody is fine. And it's how as you lose those things that seem important, how unimportant they actually are.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Which is beautiful because a lot of people don't get that opportunity to realize because when we die, we won't take any of it with us. I say I got to die before I die and see what really matters. And uh, you know, I feel like Chad went through the same experience of losing everything and having to rebuild. And we don't care much about things anymore, which is kind of cool, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

That's an interesting perspective that hopefully people can take that away when they've gone through something like you've gone through in your family. I have one last question. Um, I ask everybody this. What do you want your legacy to be?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Oh, what do I want my legacy to be? Um I think I would want my legacy to be that um she was a powerful, compassionate woman speaking the truth. I think that's a simple way for me to say what I would want it to be. Um, I would hope that my children and you know, the of course my family, but if I want just me individually, me as a person, if the world, if what I would want the world to know is that I am a powerful, compassionate woman speaking the truth. I feel like there's a lot of negativity surrounding this experience of prison and all of, and if I can speak truth and people can feel that truth and I can shift the view, that takes some of the power away from the government and makes us more human. That's my goal.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

So watching your social media and things, it reignited something in me where I thought, you know what, she's telling this story. It feels new. I have a story to share too. And I'm so grateful that I found you on social media. It it truly inspires me to, through my story and through the hardships that I went through in my children, we can help somebody else through their dark times. Portia, your story is a reminder that no chapter defines us and that even in the darkest places, light can be found. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

All right. Have such a great day. Thank you. The wrap.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

The wrap. Hold on, let me. I never know how to do these things. Hold on. I know to be good.