Dr. Richard Samuels: The Mind Behind Justice

Dr. Richard M. Samuels is a licensed psychologist in Arizona and New Jersey with nearly five decades of experience in clinical and forensic psychology. He holds a Ph.D. in Biopsychology from the City University of New York (1973), an M.A. in Clinical Psychology from Hofstra University (1967), and a B.A. in Psychology from Hofstra (1965). He completed a post-doctoral fellowship in Human Sexuality at New Jersey Medical School (1974–1975).

Dr. Samuels is board-certified in multiple specialties, including Clinical Psychology (ABPP), Forensic Psychology (ABPS), and Forensic Medicine (AAFM). He has conducted more than 2,300 psychological evaluations, including approximately 850 psychosexual risk assessments and Sexually Violent Person (SVP) evaluations. His work includes court-ordered evaluations, competency and restoration assessments, and PTSD evaluations. He has testified in Arizona, New Jersey, New York, and other states.

In addition to forensic practice, Dr. Samuels has served on professional panels for the Arizona Supreme Court and county courts, and he is a Fellow of the American Psychological Association. He has provided continuing education in forensic psychology, contributed to editorial boards, and authored columns in psychology and law publications. His experience includes independent practice, corporate leadership, and expert testimony in both civil and criminal matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello and welcome to Lipstick and Legacy, a podcast where your story matters and your journey has a purpose. Together we lift and inspire our communities one story at a time. Welcome, Dr. Dr. Richard M. Samuels. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I'm doing fine. How about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I'm excellent. So I am really interested in your life, in your life's work. I did some research on you, and you are an incredible person. I was like, oh, he's really legit. Like you have this amazing life. Dr. Samuels, you have nearly five decades of experience in psychology. What first sparked your interest in understanding the human mind?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

An interesting question. It goes back a few years. Originally, I was studying electronics engineering. I have a degree in electronics engineering. I worked at broadcast radio mostly, a little television. And I enjoyed that. But I realized that that was a very unstable profession from my perspective. The first job offer that I had in radio was paying my own expenses to move out someplace to Kansas, find my own place, and work with a possible three-month contract. So I figured that wasn't the lifestyle that I wanted to lead. So I went back to school and got my doctorate and a postdoctoral fellowship in human sexuality. And at that time, uh the sex revolution was underway. So it gave me an opportunity to specialize in that area. And most of the work I did in the beginning, besides working at the university, because I I was hired by the medical school with the department of OBGYN to do the psychological work as a pre-screening device for um uh people who women who wanted breast augmentation. That's the way it started. Wow. And uh and so I I did a lot of those evaluations. And um from there I decided to stay in psychology because I felt that that was a very interesting area. And I found that the electronics work, as much as I loved it at the time and still love it, I would have missed the opportunity to interact with people, with human beings, which I found more challenging. It also gave me an opportunity to learn about myself. And so that combination of situations led me to uh declare myself as a clinical psychologist at first, but now for the past several years or several decades, I am a forensic psychologist. And that's a little different kind of work, but really. I was born in Brooklyn. My mother died when I was five. My father ultimately remarried, and uh we had a very nice family, a mixed family at that point. I had a very good brother uh with whom I was very close, but unfortunately he passed away a few years ago. Um, I have a sister. Uh I lived with my grandparents for a while after the death of my mother, well, until my father remarried. But we were very fortunate. We had a very lovely family. My stepmom was absolutely wonderful, and uh I owe her a great deal. Electronics has always been my hobby. I did work as a radio announcer. I was I was a DJ. I ran a program called The Backbeat Show, and I did oldies but goodies, oldies in the 60s, 50s and 60s, and I worked at a number of small radio stations on Long Island primarily, and uh loved that work. It was the best work, but I still felt it wasn't stable enough. The odds of being very successful in that field are relatively small. A lot of people work in radio and and and broadcast. I enjoyed mostly playing the hits, sitting behind my turntables, which we use in those days. We had a thing called records, although they are making a comeback. Um, and uh I I just love the excitement, the fun, met some very unusual people. And uh, but I focused on psychology and um became a uh uh psychologist at the Department of OBGYN at the New Jersey Medical School, and I focused on helping people uh overcome their sexual function problems. I did screenings for those uh women who might be looking for uh breast augmentation, and uh from there I worked with the Department of Psychiatry and so on and so forth, and found myself currently at this point doing forensic evaluations, court testimony, and research, and uh that's where I spend most of my time right now.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

So that is really fascinating. Um, you've conducted more than 2300 psychological evaluations. There, that is just an incredible amount.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

There's actually more now since I wrote that. But yeah, about over 2,500.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

That is uh incredible. What have those years taught you about human behavior?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

It's quite variable, oftentimes unpredictable, and people very often regret some of the things that they do. But I also learned that people are capable of making changes in their personal lives, in their interpersonal lives, in their ability to solve problems, and uh I have found it to be a very rewarding profession. Also, the colleagues I have worked with are just wonderful people, and uh most psychologists that I know, uh at least those who do clinical work, um, have uh tremendous empathy. They're interesting people, they're easy to talk to, and um I support them entirely. It also gave me an opportunity to become very active in the American Psychological Association, and I helped to found the Department of Psychologists in Independent Practice uh quite a few years ago. I was its third president, and I met had the opportunity to do my political work, which is primarily in developing and promoting psychology, um uh working with some very, very wonderful people. So it's been good. Because I met Linda too along the way, and that's been a And who is Linda? Huh?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Who is Linda? Tell us.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Oh, Linda is my lovely wife.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

That's beautiful. Thank you. Um, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about forensic psychology?

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Um interesting. I know that people very often would think of psychologists as and and other psychologists, or even some other people, social workers working in mental health. Um, I I I think that they sometimes feel that psychologists and other mental health professionals can be a little flaky, but I have not found that to be the case. That's a great highly grounded and very helpful. And uh when people trust you enough to allow you to become integrated into their lives to help them solve an issue or solve a relationship issue, uh it's quite an honor uh to be accepted at that level. And I have always found the work to be fascinating, uh challenging at times, and it gives me an opportunity to work with attorneys who I have also found to be very interesting, but very different from psychologists and personalities. But um uh so it gives me an opportunity to work in a legal profession, going to court, working with law enforcement, and so forth. So it's it's been good. No complaints.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

So you you have testified in multiple states. How does your role as an expert witness differ from the traditional therapist or clinician?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

I did therapy for many, many years, and you learn so much about people's situations. You learn how some people can make errors early on in their lives and can suffer the consequences of that for many, many years. It can interfere with the relationships, it can interfere with child rearing situations, uh, work off situations as well. So um the more I did clinical work, which is what I basically did for the first 20 years or so, um it taught me a lot about human nature, it taught me about myself. I in the background of working with other people, I learned more about myself and I hope that I become a better person as a result of that.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

After decades of evaluating people in high-stakes situations, what patterns do you see in human decision making and behavior? Are there patterns that you see?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yes, I I think uh that we see deficits occurring in people who did not experience a warm, loving uh upbringing. Uh I see individuals repeating their mistakes many, many times over. Um working with individuals, you um see people uh having erroneous beliefs about themselves and behaving in an erroneously oriented manner. Uh, some people don't develop appropriate social skills, other people are limited by their lack of experiences. Many people go through life not feeling loved, not being able to find love, and having a background which does not give them the sense of comfort and stability that successful people more likely successful in personal life. I'm not talking about financially now, because that's a separate category, but um people who have are grounded and had been raised in an environment of love where they feel confident and secure and know that they are going to be loved by others, have an outlet for their own feelings of love towards others, can make a person a much more stable individual, and that leads to better decision making. Many people are blind to their own negative behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

So you go into the prisons, you go into the jails, you talk to inmates, you evaluate them. Why do you think our prisons are just bursting at the seams? I know that, you know, I work in education with children. I think the uh it's the statistics like one in four kids have somebody that they love in a in a prison, whether that's a parent, an aunt, an uncle, somebody close to them. Incarceration is a huge problem that faces our country and the children of our country as well. Why do you think the United States has such a high volume of people in prison?

SPEAKER_01 11:27

I'm not sure that the percentages are higher here than in other countries, in all honesty. I don't know the specifics. I was gonna look that up, but I forgot. So um, but uh we have a fairly large prison population here. In part, that's probably due to the fact that our lifestyle allows us to make choices that people in other types of countries where they're more authoritarian governments and so forth, don't give that people, those people that opportunity. So if you have fewer choices, and if you are raised in a very strict and rigid environment, it may limit your thinking. Um, and maybe the more prominent uh behavioral construct that a person has is one of repression and one of anger. So we're fortunate in the in the states uh to have that degree of freedom which allows most of us, at least not all of us, to choose our path, have more control over our path than other people may have in other parts of the uh world where the limitations exist on what an individual has the opportunity to engage in.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

That's really interesting. What do you find in like recidivism rates when you go in and you talk to a prisoner or somebody in prison, jail, do you find that most people are kind of stuck in this cycle, or do you find that they can change and they can they can turn their lives around?

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Number one, people can change. Not everyone is capable of that, however. And a lot depends on their degree of emotional maturity. Um, if an individual is open-minded, if an individual is doesn't have an overt degree of anger, then they can function with more opportunity. If a person grows up filled with anger, filled with filled with frustration, um, they find themselves hemmed in by those emotions which are very negative and can therefore cause a person to stumble in life. If you have trouble dealing with your parents growing up, you may take that into your adult life and may have difficulty maintaining a healthy relationship with a partner, a spouse, a friend, whatever the case may be, your own children for that matter. And so the healthier a person is individually, that is, the more uh the luckier they were in their rearing, uh the more loving their family, the uh not having to live in poverty, uh always feeling that there was someone there to depend on, getting emotional support and encouragement from loved ones around you, that adds tremendously to the foundational elements of your life. And the more concrete, well, I don't want to use the word concrete because that's a play on words and I didn't mean that, uh, the more solid your upbringing is, the better you understand yourself, the more reinforcement you have uh uh about your own worth self worthwhile. Um, if people tell you you're a good person under the right circumstances, of course, and you get that constant support throughout your lifetime, and you know that if you need someone, they're there for you, and that they love you and they accept your love. That gives you tremendous strength in being able to go out in the world where the world may not be quite as favorable as what you experience in a healthy home. And uh, but it gives you the uh the ability to trust people, gives you the development of self-confidence, and all in all, is a much healthier way of being and a luckier way of being if you have that opportunity. Of course, if you have an opportunity to go to school, going and getting an education in whatever it might be, as long as you're good at something, you can always find a way to enhance yourself and derive satisfaction from feelings that you're doing the right thing, that people around you are confirming that, that you can see the product of your own work and feel pride in that work. And so if you have those basic fundamentals, it gives you a tremendous uh advantage over people who don't have that. And um I've seen a lot of those people over the years, and uh yeah, so that's our job is to doing therapy. I'm sorry, okay doing therapy to give them the tools to develop what they didn't get when they were younger in a in a warm family life opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

You go in and meet with clients or or people that you're working with into prisons and jails. Have you ever been scared? Have you ever felt um that somebody is not safe when you're around them? Are you able to just really put that aside? Like, what's that like?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Initially, when I first started doing this, yes, I I was apprehensive like most people would be going into a jail setting. Um I I guess I I lived a very fortunate life and I didn't experience that type of thing uh in the streets and stuff. But um when I first went into the jails, um I I I number one, the jails that I have worked in, and that's both back east and out here in Arizona, um, you're pretty much protected when you go in. Um there are guards there. If the patient is violent, they're handcuffed and chained, um, which of course doesn't give them a fair playing field, but for the sake of the client and my sake and the prison guards and so on and so forth around them, um it's something that we guarantee. I have never felt intimidated or afraid of individuals that I have met that would scare me to look at them with tattoos on their heads and face and so on and so forth, and backgrounds that involve homicide, uh assault, and so forth. In certain cases, if the individual is very dangerous when I go into a room, um they are chained uh and sometimes we're separated by uh uh a glass or plexiglass uh shield. Other times we just sit at opposite ends of the table. But any fear that I had, except for being appropriately uh aware of my surroundings, I don't have any anxiety at all at this point. I have found most of the people that I have worked with to be friendly. I'm talking about those that are in for criminal offenses, murder, and so forth, as being uh human beings that have their issues, obviously, but I also see them in the light of someone who's aware that people can make bad decisions in their lives. Sometimes people can't control their emotions, they haven't been taught to do that. And so uh I have overcome my fear. Am I cautious? Yes. Am I grateful sometimes if the patients that I'm seeing are chained down to the floor or chained down with their hands? Yes. Although I always have to have it, one hand free for them to fill out the tests. And so maybe a little less fearful than I than others who don't have that experience. And I have found some very nice people who've done some terrible things, and it's nice to know that I have an opportunity to help them.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Wow, that's very interesting. So you see these people, and kind of what you've said or what you have said is that most of them have these traumatic backgrounds, histories, they weren't um nurtured properly in their homes and children, whatever that looked like. They didn't have their immediate needs that they didn't have shelter food, they were being abused, whatever that is. Do you find though, on occasion, um, or what is your experience with, people who were raised in nurturing homes that had education, things like that, that do horrific things. And what triggers somebody to do those things when they've been given kind of everything that you would think would make somebody a healthy, thriving person in society?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

In the early part of my career, I saw what we refer to as Yavis patients. Young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, and sm um, and I forgot what the S stands for, something else having to do with intelligence. These people have had typical backgrounds. And these folks get into difficulty, and they're generally not violent. So I would be involved with individuals who may have committed theft or may have um uh uh engaged in relationships that turn out to be unhealthy for them uh or their partners. Uh in those cases, it can be different from the criminal population, with whom I tend to work uh with more frequently at this point. Um people who have uh criminal backgrounds sometimes become that way because of bad luck, sometimes become that way because they have no alternative, they don't see any alternatives to themselves if they need money, for example. Uh their best choice for them, the way they think, is to steal something or take someone from somebody, rob somebody. Um, but the more options you have, and that's generally based on a strong foundation of being raised in an environment that teaches you the possibilities of life, teaches you that there are uh healthy solutions for most problems, not for all, uh healthy solutions, healthy ways of interacting with the potential love partner, uh a lifetime partner. You can and that you can figure these things out. And if you don't, and you can't figure it out, you're smart enough and not defensive enough to the point where you interfere with your own ability to learn and grow emotionally. Many people stop growing emotionally at a too early age, or they fixate at an unhealthy level of development, and therefore they have more difficulty. But a therapist who works with these individuals does have their uh an ability to teach people how to rethink their lives, to rethink a relationship, to rethink possibilities in their lifetime. And as a result, many people who Suffer initially after a course of therapy can overcome these problems, can become stronger, healthier, better individuals, better parents, better better partners, emotional partners. And so that has led me to feel that the field of mental health can be a profoundly helpful experience. But too many people are fearful of that because we have a stigma in our society that if you need help with an emotional problem, that makes you a weak person or a bad person or a poor person or a crazy person. And so that limits many people from engaging in what would be a helpful path for them.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Working in areas that involve trauma, crime, and complex human behavior can be extremely heavy. How have you personally maintained balance throughout your career? So you've been in a prison for the day, you learned about somebody's horrific upbringing, childhood, where things happen to people that you can't even, you can't unsee, you can't unhear. How do you leave that there and come home and be functioning yourself? How do you separate those things?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I remember my professors telling me that that's a big issue when you first started. And I remember specifically my first two patients that I ever saw. And I was in graduate school at the time, and being somewhat concerned that somehow I was going to be infected with whatever their deficits were. Now, these are most typical normal people that didn't do the prison work until later. But um, I found that it was very easy for me because I came home to a happy environment. And uh if you come home to a happy environment and you don't have that stress with you, you can then be prepared the next day when you go back to work to handle other people's issues. And you have to learn how to separate yourself from what you see and hear, because you do hear some horrific things. Um, but you can also examine their lives, and the more you understand about an individual and what they have under gone through in their development, and you do that through interviews, psychological testing, etc., uh you'll find that you can empathize with them. And I think being a good therapist uh requires a person with a certain degree of empathy, where you can put yourself in their mental space and consider yourself to be that person during the time you're spending with them, to try to understand through their eyes, through their hearing, through their thinking, what they have experienced and why they have interpreted their lifestyle or as it evolved in that manner, uh, which makes you a better therapist. Because if you maintain the distance and you can't identify with the individuals that you're working with, it makes it more difficult for you to give them sound advice that they can't accept. It's as if you're speaking a different language, but it's a language of understanding. It's it's a comprehensive comprehension of possibilities in your life, and it makes me realize how blessed I was as an individual to being able to think this way. And I guess I was just fortunate that way in my life's experiences.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

What has the field taught taught you about compassion and accountability?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Well, accountability is always important in any profession, but I've always taken my responsibilities very seriously. Um it's important to maintain a professional distance between you and your client. So even though many people, I say this would be even this would be a good friend. They're not a friend when I'm doing therapy with them. They may feel that they are because I'm friendly, um, because it's just easier for me to relate to people that way. Uh, but uh I think that the the difference is that you view them as someone that you could be a friend with if circumstances were different, and you try to relay the information that I have acquired to that individual in such a way that they can accept it, and therefore they won't resist you when you're doing the therapy. I also utilize recommending books to my former patients that I would see would recommend books, programs, and other things that would give them an opportunity to obtain this information not just from me, but also from additional sources that would exist even when they no longer see me as a therapist. I don't believe in keeping people in therapy for a very, very long time. I try to get them out as quickly as possible. I do little clinical work at this point because most of my work now is forensic in nature. But that's my ability to do that is based upon all the experience I've had doing therapy. And uh I consider myself very blessed.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Is there a moment in your career that stands out as particularly meaningful or impactful?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Well, yes. Um I I've I've had conversations, interesting conversations with people that have killed, uh people that have beaten children, people that have bitten their spiten their spouses. And normally I would be aghast at these individuals. But I find at this time that I'm able to go in to see people like that, even though I know their backgrounds, uh with a less of a bias against them. Because I believe in the law and I I believe in people should be good, and uh, I think that good values make uh your own life enjoyable and uh more pleasant. But I see these individuals who are capable of this violence, and sometimes I see through that and I could see the positive things in their personality, or at least I think I can. And uh I try to give feedback to people so that I'm evaluating at this point. Because this time I evaluate somebody, I do a report, and I testify in court, and very often I work for the defense. So I I'm sort of tuned in to looking for the positive in an individual. And if you look at the for the positive, most people are accepting of that when you try to reach out to them in that manner. There are some people that are so angry and so bitter and feel so threatened that it makes contacting involvement with them very difficult. But it's my job, and I'm able to do the best that I can. And I hope that in working with individuals like that, because of my background and because of the experience I've had working with so-called YAVIS patients, young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, smart, um, that I can eliminate some of the barriers that may exist in taking advice from the professional. Um, when I do an evaluation for forensic cases, I don't do too much of that. I try to remain as objective as I can because I don't want to form a positive relationship. I just want the relationship to be at least neutral. But some people that I work with, I always see as a potential friend. And I look for those things in that individual, which makes it easier for me to communicate with them.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

As I did some research on your history and career, you've been involved with some really high profile cases. Are you able to comment at all on one that really stands out to you, or just generally the experiences you have when you go into the courtroom and you testify as a professional, what that looks like?

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Well, of course, my my purpose is to be as objective as possible. Um and perhaps I'm guilty of one thing, and that's looking for the positive qualities in an individual. And in writing a report, I would certainly bring those to the attention of the reader, which very often are attorneys, juries, judges, and so forth. But um, you have to be objective, otherwise you lose your credibility. So in writing an objective report, I try to minimize any negative biases that I might have towards these individuals, um, and and and look and see what their potential may be and make recommendations based upon that. Um it's uh sometimes a challenge, but most of the time at this stage in my life, I don't have too much difficulty doing that.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

How has forensics changed over your career?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I think we depend a little unfortunately, psychology is not a hard science. And while we do have various tests and um other tools that we can use to uh classify individuals with respect to uh their diagnoses, we uh and therefore we have certain patterns that we look for uh when we're writing the report and bringing it to the attention of the uh the referring source. Um I would say that what is being professional as a psychologist? It means not to stepping over certain boundaries. We have to maintain profession's professional uh uh orientation. So we don't want to become their friend. Although there are some people that I've met that it would seem impossible for me to have thought that before I met them. I could be friends with those people, even those that have done horrible things. And I guess that's because I look for the positives. And that might make my view of these individuals a little more unbiased and professional, and therefore lead to a more uh unbiased and favorable report. Because I could see these things that an individual has as a potential.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

What improvements would you like to see in psychology, incarceration, all of that? What could help people? What could help? These are these are big questions. I know that they, you know, I'm just looking for your perspective on changes you would like to see. What would really help society and the people that are incarcerated?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

So many people that I see are broken. And and um in a normal situation where you're working with a person who functions on the outside and does fairly well and can sustain a relationship and could be a good role model for their children, um, they're fine. It's just part of the norm, the the range of normal human behavior. And so I understand that not everybody's like me, thank goodness. And uh not everyone is the same, and there can be a wide variety of child reary uh situations that people can engage in that can still deliver strong, uh, well-adjusted young adults out of that background. There are some people though that have not had that opportunity, and um, so what I would think would be very helpful is that mental health would become more integrated into our society, and there are some TV programs that do a pretty good job uh in doing that. And I think that the more people know about psychology, uh patterns of behavior, ways of developing uh strong qualities in your own children or of those that you have uh a role in raising can go a long way in helping the next generation. When you raise a kid who is angry towards their parents, who always feels that they're under criticism by their parents, or doesn't feel any love whatsoever, uh those kids grow up into adults that have a lot of great animosity, a lot of anger, and they're the ones that have more of an opportunity to engage in violent behavior. That doesn't mean that somebody in a moment of uh uh intense anger can't act out in a uh violent manner that can happen, even to the best of us. But for those that haven't had that opportunity, that experience, or have missed out on a strong feeling of being loved as a child, they can go through life with a chip on their shoulder, a feeling of anger, a tendency to use their fists and not their words, and um they they can look for shortcuts because they don't see themselves as being successful in life. And in order for you to feel successful in life, you have you really have to emerge. You don't have to. It's better to emerge from a background of love and caring and support and guidance. But not everyone is fortunate enough to have that. And so when you're missing that, talking to somebody whose profession is that and might be able to guide an individual, who might be able to refer an individual to the literature that's out there, whether it's in a book form, a television program, radio program, or whatever. Um if you can integrate these positive images of yourself, if you can improve the way you view yourself, you will see the world as a less dangerous place.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

That's really interesting. This has been eye-opening. I you have such a wealth of knowledge, and I have been really excited about this interview. Just after looking you up, I was really excited about just your your legacy. And my last question that I ask all of my guests is what do you want your legacy to be?

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Um, I was a good husband, a good father, and a pretty good psychologist. And a former engineer who loved radio broadcasting, which was my first love.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

I love that. That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

A long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

And um, that's still the thing that you love. I can just tell that you have to be a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

I love it the most. It was my childhood passion, my youthful pride passion uh uh uh passion, and uh uh it still provides me with a great deal of warmth. And I read about it, I uh I follow it, and uh I get a big smile on my face when I think of those earlier years.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

What was some of your favorite music?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

I was a rock and roll guy. I love classical. I do, I always listen to class. My my my parents listened to classical. Um, but I was a rock and roll guy. Favorite bands, sixties, seventies, and then as I got older, I stopped listening to the current music.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

But that's typical of people as they what's like your favorite band? Do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Well, uh it's hard to say. You know, I've spun so many discs. I put my hands on it because we used to have turntables with to spin the discs, you know, and you had to back cue and stuff like that. But um the rock and roll that I grew up with was my favorite, the oldies. But I don't listen to it too much anymore. I guess I'm tired of it. But uh I think the best music, the most challenging, is good symphonic classical music, I have to say. The complexity of the melodies, the the ability to the of the composer to have conceptualized this, to have heard it in their heads is just a miracle to me. I could only do that by listening. They did it from inside their heads. That to me was it was a tremendous achievement, and that's a real legacy.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

It is. My oldest son is a musician, and it's incredible for me to he can hear a piece and he can play it, and he composes beautifully.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

And I just don't know where it came from, and I'm it's a gift. It's truly a gift.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

It's a true gift. It's a true gift. I I didn't have that ability.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Me either, but I you have the ability to listen.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I listened to it and I played the discs. I spun the hits.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

You spun the hits.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Richards, you spun the hits. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking your time to be on Lipstick and Legacy. You truly have an incredible life of career and experiences, and I really appreciate you sharing some of the things.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

It was a pleasure meeting you.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Thank you so much, Rich.