The Opposite of Anxiety is Creativity with Leila Viss

Leila Viss has spent her career helping musicians find and trust their own creative voice. In this conversation, she shares the philosophy behind Space to Create, what her son’s accident taught her about music and grief, and why the opposite of anxiety is creativity. This episode is a must-listen for creatives, educators, and humans...

Here's the blog post about her recent recital!

Learn more about Leila's work here.

• Website: https://www.leilaviss.com
• Space to Create: https://www.leilaviss.com/space-to-create
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/88pianokeys
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leilaviss/

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Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the 440. I'm your host, Eric Brenner, and today I could spend the entire time just introducing our guests, but I'll just make this brief. I'm delighted to welcome pianist teacher, composer, author, and creative mentor who has spent her career helping musicians find and trust their own creative voice. She's the creator of Space to Create, author of Found in the Wake, and an integral voice in the piano pedagogy community. Leela Vis, welcome to the 440. Thank you for being here. How are you? Thanks for having me, Eric. I'm great. It's fun to be here. I haven't been doing any podcasting lately, so I'm honored to be invited to your fabulous show. Oh, excellent. And I'm thanks for being here again. And I I understand that you just, it's recital season and you just had your recital and you added a little twist to it this year that I'm dying to hear about. So can you tell us about that? Just a small little twist. I have to tell you, it it came to me the idea. Well, it has been the an idea for me for a long time. I would say over 20 years, because I attended a conference in Dallas where Kristen Joost was showcasing her students playing with professional band musicians. And I thought, oh, how cool is that? And now, fast forward 20 years, here I am. I'm now a regular part of a contemporary band at our church, along with playing in the traditional service, playing organ, accompanying the choir. And my story goes that I let's see, I graduated with a master's degree in piano performance and pedagogy on top of the world, knowing everything, I'm quite sure. And someone handed me a chord chart and asked me to play with their band. And I had no idea what to do. And I was so embarrassed. And so ever since that feeling occurred to me, I've made it my goal that my students will never feel that way. I want them to be well-rounded, comprehensive musicians who can play in real-world settings. So now back to winter of 2026. What am I going to do for a spring recital? I really have a great band set up at church. I'm wondering if the band members would help me do something like this. So I told them about my dream. I said, What if you would play with my piano students and give them that opportunity? And they were all in. So that gave me the courage to step out and say, okay, I am going to do this. So then I had to choose a date, and the date was settled on by my piano student Adrian, who has been with me for 10 years. I started with him in second grade and now he's a senior in high school. And I wanted to make sure that he could make it. So May 17 was the day that he could make it for sure. And so he was one of the four students that I chose to play with the band. And it was uh at first I was thinking, well, wouldn't it be fun to have all of my students play with the band? And I thought, no way, how am I going to schedule all of those rehearsals? And I don't think they're equipped yet. So I decided, you know what, this is a nice privilege that I want to honor the students who are really doing the work in every form of playing piano from sonatinas to chord charts. So I chose my top four students, and then I let them choose what tune they wanted to play with the band. And that ended up being two Christian contemporary pieces, His Mercy is More and Look Up Child by Lauren Dieagle. And then Maddie chose Benny and the Jets, and Addison chose Don't Stop Believing. So I felt like they were just really all-time great choices. And then I had to organize getting the charge to the band, getting the videos or the MP3s to the band. This is what we're doing, choosing the keys so we could have vocalists to sing. And it turns out that my good friend and my boss, the choir director at our church, happens to have a PhD in choral conducting an amazing voice, and he can cross over. He sings in the Colorado Bach Ensemble, which is the Hoity Toity choir here in Colorado. And he can also sing like nobody's business, any contemporary tune you might want to play. And he plays bass guitar. So he was a shoe-in. I had him, I had Ruben, the drummer, amazing drummer. He was all in. He loved this, he had an idea, he had done this before. And I was out of a guitar player because our other worship leader could not be there. And luckily, Ruben had a friend named Alberto. And so I had not met Alberto. And but that was my band. I got them figured out who was going to play what. Is when do we rehearse? Because I have four pianists, I have busy band members. And so I decided that you know what? The recital is going to be on a Sunday when everyone's there. Alberto had to drive over, but that was okay. And so we had a rehearsal an hour before the recital. And then we were on at the beginning of the recital. And that's what happened. And I still can't believe it. I'm still reeling from it because it just turned out. I could I don't have words for it. I I knew it could be really good, but I just didn't know for sure. And it was fantastic. And that's because I had good people. Did you did you say I have 37 questions about the thing? Did you say that you put this at the beginning of the recital? This you did you say you went first on this? Yes. Interesting. Yes, I know because it would have been a great ending, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. But here's the deal I didn't want the band members to have to wait around till the end of my recital because they were already there early for the rehearsal. You know what though? I ended up loving that because guess what? Everyone shows up at the beginning of a recital, but I had families that had to leave for soccer games and all that kind of stuff. So if I would have held off till the end, I wouldn't have had the crowd that I had at the beginning. You know, I like that. So the one of the things I kept, as you were telling your story, a couple words that just kept flashing into my into my visage was one is there's a lot of key wisdom moments there, meaning you're putting together someone who's put together a lot of projects and executed them. We're going to be talking about that a lot today, about different things that you've done. But just having that wherewithal to know, uh, no, I'm not going to do my whole studio. I was like, oh my gosh, I totally would have blown that, tried to do the whole studio. Start like that's just a nice wisdom move. And the second one, uh, and and and the point of that is to be able to make it happen. The second thing is to, I've been lucky enough to walk through a music teacher's conference with you and look at booths together and how you communicate with people and how much community you have in that space. But here's another uh example of you using your community to create this opportunity for these students. And when you first start, when you first mentioned it, something that popped into my mind is I was like, ooh, could professional band is could that be a way to ease people who might be otherwise nervous performers or really shy? And so it might be really powerful for like her most beginning students. But I love that you made this statement at the beginning with your top students, which really set the tone, it sounds like for your recital. And it worked in a really beautiful way that made the whole day work. So I just think that's wonderful. I would love having professionals be able to tap in to my younger crowd as well. But I knew I didn't have that the that amount of time. Because I I know that my band members would be so patient with anyone. I know they would. But as when I finished, I thought about this because maybe you have this question already. How am I gonna fund this? What am I gonna do? Because I, as a musician, I like to be paid for my time. I like to be honored with that. And I think all of these musicians would have done this for nothing. And I didn't want that to happen. I wanted to honor them. So I decided that I would pay them out of my pocket. This was going to be my recital expense. And what I'm thinking is, how cool would it be if I had a model where parents pay extra for their child to play with band members and they then take it that much more seriously, too. So I could see it working. And um, the biggest thing would be to find those professional musicians when they're available. But I think it could be a workable model. You know, it's really interesting in the guitar. I have a kind of a mastermind that I've been a part of for many years with a bunch of guitar teachers. And that is something that they do in their recitals is they get together and they they create these bands and they do that thing. And it's a program where you do pay extra. And I think it's an awesome model to explore. I also know that in my experience of doing recitals and performances and things, the money that we spend out of, even if it is our own pocket, that can be our only marketing budget for the year. Because what you just did is you create something people are going to be talking about. And the younger kids, they're going to see a pathway that could be them someday. This is why it's so wise to not do the whole studio. You know, you you're like, oh, this is something you can work up to. This is something you can achieve to get this experience. And there's no way that parents would have an issue with paying for that either and supporting it, because I'm sure the cameras were going off and the social medias were shared and this all the all the things that you expect when you do something that that grand. I hope so. I it's always interesting. Parents are just parents, but I I did notice that the applause was longer and louder than it's ever been at any recital before. Oh. You know, and uh I had I I didn't get a chance to talk to a lot of my parents afterwards because I also have something at the end of my recitals called Encore, which means every student got to play one piece because after the four band pieces, then I went into an official recital. And a number of them were saying, Really? I only get to play one. I said, Well, tell me your second choice, and I'll put that down on my slides because I had a big slide presentation uh for the recital. And so then I announced, you are all free to leave, but I have some students that would like to stay and play. Do I have anybody who wants to? And I would say about 10 people came up and wanted to play a second piece during the encore section. And so there was probably about 10 families left to listen. But I thought it was so cool that they wanted to stay and they wanted to play another piece. Oh, that is cool. Yeah, it's this is a kind of a unique experience. And you've just went has the encore thing always been something you've done, or is that a sometimes I this year I had to do it because I knew my recital was gonna last longer than an hour. I really like them to be done in an hour. This was an hour and 15 minutes, so I didn't want to keep people any longer than that, but I love it when people want to stay and play, so that's the reason why I didn't get to talk to very many people is because a number of them left before the on course started. So I didn't get a lot of feedback, but I generally know my students and my families know that I'm going to put out something that is going to be worthwhile and they're always happy with what happens. And I had one parent be really honest, walked up to me immediately and said, You were an answer to prayer. So I would call that that's pretty good praise. So yeah, I I would say so. And you know, there was another thing that you shared in that what you just described that I I really grabbed me, which you talked, you went back to your origin a little bit. You talked about having a chord chart putting in front of you and not knowing what to do. I recently interviewed Elizabeth Swift. Oh, okay. And she told, I mean, it was almost word for word. She was in her church band and she's this great solid piano player. They put the, and this was where her journey of composition began. Uh, from that moment, you got you were a classical pianist doing the thing. You uh, and I think this is important because what we're looking for is these moments where you can pivot or you can retreat or you can lean in. So, excuse me. In that when you started that journey of being interested in improvising, learning to read from a chord chart, I'm so curious because this is the guitar playing community, we're opposite, right? If you want a guitar player to turn down, you just put a piece of sheet music in front of them, right? We usually begin right from you know, sound bass, improvising, learning a bunch of different styles. And then, you know, we I ended up gravitating towards classical music, working it backwards. So tell us a little bit about that journey, where you began as a teacher and as a pianist and the moment of embracing this, oh, this new thing. And how did you go from that to where you are now in your philosophy? When I graduated with my master's degree, I really didn't know if I want to teach anymore because I didn't like the hours. I didn't want to start my day at three o'clock in the afternoon. I and I think I was just burnt out. I was burnt out by classical music because I was a classically trained pianist. And I thought I had to listen to NPR classical music, I had to check all the boxes and be a classical musician. And I think I was just tired of being that. So I felt like I rebelled just a little bit by, you know, heading over to KBCO 97.3 and listening to alternative world-class rock. And I always loved that music. So then I, long story short, I decided that if I was going to teach piano, I had to make it fun. And so that's when I started getting, I would, I know creative is an overused word, but I started just how am I going to make these lessons fun and engaging, and engaging, not only for my students, but for myself, so that I would look forward to doing a lot of the same things over and over again. And then there was a couple of students that came into my life that really helped me shake my, it shook my classical foundation. And I had to move forward and find new ways because Jake came into my studio and he would go to a movie and then he would play the soundtrack on the piano at his lesson. You know, his ears were incredible. So I had to come up with ways to encourage him. His mom wanted him to also read sheet music, but I wanted to keep going and encourage and coach his improvisation. And so as I learned more about that, then it trickled down to myself as well. Well, I want to learn these things too. And then I had questions and I remember a specific conference. I was sitting next to Bradley Sowash at a happy hour and I asked him about the 12-bar blues. And he wrote down some notes about the 12-bar blues. I think he wrote down, you know, little boxes for each chord and on a napkin. And no, I don't have that napkin anymore because that's too bad, because that eventually led to us creating 88 creative keys, where we were doing workshops and webinars to help teachers move beyond the page and help their students do the same. So I think my interactions with him confirmed what I was already feeling and then gave me the confidence because I started learning from him and putting my theory into action. Oh my goodness, I knew all this theory, but you know, I wasn't using it. So that was a turning point, meeting him. And then I started composing, but I also just knew that it was important for me to um be creative. So I started composing and arranging my own piano music, especially sacred arrangements, because I play so many sacred arrangements at my church. And then I would say one of the main things that helped me really realize that it wasn't creativity, is just good for me as a pianist, but good for my soul, was after our son's accident. He had a horrible, horrific accident. And um I couldn't even listen to music at first. And then I could only listen to music that had no words. And in particular, Ola Yelo's music. I don't know, it there was just a certain soundtrack that I could just listen to. And eventually I started improvising based on a lot of the things that I was meditating on. And I came up with, I right now have six interludes for the soul. And I think that is that was my therapy, I have to say. It was pretty cheap therapy, but it really helped me through. And it really helped me realize that music is a balm that soothes the soul, that nothing else can do. So if anything, I'm hoping that if my students take away something that they have the permission to play away from the page and play on the page, that it will also be something that can calm them. In fact, okay, I know I'm going on and on, but I read this book called Beyond Anxiety by Martha Beck. And she says that the opposite of anxiety is not calm, it's creativity. And I that line right there was the light bulb moment for me that brought me to tears because I thought, yes, that's what I experienced. When I had that anxiety, I could take it to the piano and play. And somehow music had the words that I didn't have and it let my emotions find a place to land. Wow, yeah, that that is quite uh an answer. And I'm so glad you answered it, how you did. And I want to just kind of work a little bit backwards because what I'm really hearing, and the thing that I was really hoping that you'd you'd share today, and I think it's so important, is really getting to the level of the art and its purpose and its actual function. Because I'll be on, you know, I feel, as a lot of the people in the teaching community, particularly, we lose the creative, it's not the creative spark, it's the wild artistry. It's the, it is the thing, it is the expression. And I know that I feel that it took me many, many years to see music not as an expression of my personality, as my calling card to the world. Oh, I'm a guitar player, I'm a teacher, this is me, I'm an artist, but actually using it to express what I'm experiencing as a human and to put it in and to channel into a way that originally what moved me when I was a child when I heard music and fell in love with it. It's not like that is an easy thing to do. And I know in your case, I would you experienced this thing that was so profound that in it in the in the moment took you away from the music and your career and that perspective of you were in so deep and it took you to another place. But then it became this, it became this vehicle for you. And and I and I really want to talk about that because I think that we could talk about how great you are at building courses, how awesome you are at executing brilliant products. But for people listening, we're all humans, and you talk to 30 of us doing this thing, it's all a different career path. But more importantly, it's a different life path as an artist. And that's the thing that you're teaching. So I'm I'm really grateful you shared that. I'm I'm reading your book right now, and I'm really struggling to read it as a parent. It's not easy to read, you know, to and I'm reading and I read very fast. I'm reading it very slowly. And I I I read many, I read a couple books a week, and I was gonna just plow through yours, listen to some podcasts, and I didn't, it's not that kind of book. And it's beautifully written, and it is a, it is, it's got a real creative, I'll say it, it's it's got a real creative spark to it. It's got an authenticity that I think came out of that emotion you experienced. So now I'm going on and on, but I really wanted to I think this is not just it's important in your journey, but it's also something that whoever's listening can really pick up on, right? It's how do we return to that, to where music is the thing that can be our vehicle to experience and sometimes endure, sometimes transform the experience of life into something that can become beautiful. Right. So amen. There you go. You just said it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm as I'm I'll I will say one more thing. I'm read as I'm reading your book and I'm talking about your book, it's one of those things that makes your arm hair stand up, you know, because it's not easy to read. Um, and I knew you when you went through that, but I didn't understand the same way that, you know, it's it's impossible to understand until you try to come a little bit closer. So anyway, thank you for sharing that. I I don't know if I have it somewhere yet, but one of my tags is music is not my profession, it's my passion. And I think that's where we can, it's hard to draw the line. If we're really into our career, it's all good, even though sometimes I think you know, teaching a lesson feels like much more work than composing a piece. They're all put together so beautifully. And I can't imagine a career that has more options than something in music. My husband works in the corporate world and he can't wait for that retirement date. And I'm not feeling that way. I'm I will always be doing something with music, and that is because it's part of our souls, it's not just a job. And we are so fortunate to be in something like this. Even if we think, okay, we're not making the money like other people do, you know what, in the end of the day, you can't take it with you. Yes, and I and to your point, you Discussed how you you were a classical pianist. You burned out on that. You didn't, you the hours weren't working for your for your life in that moment. And but then that you got a new season was presented to you. And again, the community thing. I noticed in a lot of your writing, in a lot of your work, another big word that you use a lot, aside from creativity, and that is also curiosity. You're also demonstrating that by sitting next to Bradley, be like, hey, what's up with this? Like and and being able to show that you don't know what you're talking about in that moment and you're wanting to learn. These are the things that I think are I just did this, I'll just say, I just did this Asta American String Teachers Association webinar. And it was a leadership webinar about uh community-based music, getting these programs spun up, whether you're trying to start music in the prisons or school program or just starting up a music studio. And the conversations were great. But so much of it was based around execution, ideation, and then the fact that the ideas often don't become reality, right? And trying to get through that. And what I think is really interesting is that people like we're doing is you do something and you can follow your innate curiosity. And it's okay for your career to change. Because no, we're never going to quit. What you're doing, you know, 20 years from now might look different than what it is right now, just like it was 20 years before. But that's the thing that makes this career so awesome, right? And if all you cared about was making money and you harnessed that energy into just making money, then yes, you can take this career and make as much money as you one would want to, right? That's that's a thing. But that's not what it's about now. Maybe it will be someday. But that's the that's the beauty of the skill set, I think. Agreed. I I learned from Martha Beck's book that there's two forms of curiosity there's deprivation curiosity and interested curiosity. So deprivation curiosity means I need to know something because if I don't know it, I'm not gonna look good. Like how I felt with that chord chart experience. I felt so bad because I didn't know this, uh, you know, how to play with a band. And so that got me down for a while. Now, if I would have been older and wiser, it I could have taken it and I think eventually, yes, I did move to interested curiosity. What is this chord chart thing all about? Why can't I do it? I should be able to do this. And I think when we move into that interested curiosity, that can take us places, that can move us forward and help us design our career path. I'm not teaching nearly as many students as I used to, and that's because I'm making room for other things. And I think that helps us once we decide that we can learn, we can be curious instead of, well, I don't know that, so I can't. I think one of my favorite phrases is what if? And then I also learned study has studies have shown that if you just say the word, it opens up the brain to possibilities. I've never heard that, but I'm a big fan of them. So next time you're if you're wondering about something, and I think that's how I felt when I did this recital for the students, it who's gonna decide this for me as I'm looking up and around? No one is gonna make this decision for me except for me. So I had to take courage, which is one of my mantras, and just do it because I knew I would be sorry if I didn't. And I feel like, you know, if we're always gonna be held back by, well, there's this and this and this, we're never gonna move forward. Interesting. And I wanted to say, hmm, but then I was like, I'm not gonna say it again. No, she's she's like, I'm just doing it because she's the other one that I like to really apply to those moments of is I like to add in, is it helpful in the moments of courage as I'm trying to make a decision? Is like, is this helpful? Whether it's to my creative thing or my expressive thing, or will be helpful to the people that I'm serving. Apply that's another great lens. And I feel like that often opens up a creative channel as well. I like that because that that's a real intention that we're trying to do. We want to be helpful when we can. So you the first anxiety you called it deprivation curiosity? Deprivation curiosity. Okay, what was the second one? Interested curiosity. Interested curiosity, got it. So deprivation is the need to know, and interested is I want to know. Okay, and this is in which book? This is also in Beyond Anxiety. Okay, so this sounds like this is a much uh an important read. Important read. Okay. Exactly. We'll make sure to put a link to that in the program. Yes, good. And what was interesting is it validated not only my experience, but my son Carter, who was in the main part of the book and also wrote part of the many of the chapters and found in the wake. He is a walking testament to what creativity did for him during his recovery. He is an amazing one-handed pianist now and draws like nobody's business. He draws sea creatures and it but I do think that that that was getting him through some really hard times. Wow, and you saw that, and you're part of it, and you were existing in it too. Yeah. But can you talk about not being able to listen to music? It just felt like salt in a wound. And uh no, because I was angry at a lot of things, and I was angry at God. I just it felt too much like reality, and I was not in a reality that I could handle. Um, and I remember then walking into Carter's room, and someone was playing a tune over him, and it almost made me shake and shiver and all the things, and like, what are you doing? And then for some reason, after that, then I started being able to start listening to things again. But I think it was because it was so much a part of me, and every part of me fell apart. Yeah, the one thing that you've always had as your main support network and your your thing you leaned into. It's really interesting. And it when th the experience is that intense, that wasn't what that wasn't your default. That was in fact something you wanted nothing to do with. You were in a deep place. Yeah, it is very you don't ever forget that feeling of being shattered like that. You and you have to put the pieces back together again. And bit by bit I did, but the it doesn't come even very quickly, it takes a long time, and trite little sayings and silver linings and at least and all of those kind of things didn't want to hear those. So I have a book of things that I would rather not hear, and I will never say to anyone who is going through something. Oh, you should write that book and share that book because yeah, there's a whole I I've I I have know the experience of of great intentions not landing appropriately or in a meaningful way. And I'm interested in that the it seems like a big theme that came out of that experience for your growth as a human being is the idea of grief, right? Because you you talk about that in a lot of in a lot of your work now, as that emotion. Is that something that you were able to channel into music or are able to channel into music? Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah. It's I would say it's in everything I write and say and do. And I first called it a the grief monster because I felt like it moved in and it took over every part of me. And I think that's why I didn't even listen to music. I could the grief was so heavy, and then the clouds start parting, but grief never leaves you, it's always there, and it's not linear, it will come and go. And I know everyone who has gone through something like this will agree that it's I'm fine, but I still ache. And when another family member is aching, I ache and I feel like I I can empathize, not just sympathize, but I can empathize with that ache. So there's so many lessons to be learned in grief as well. And yes, then that is translated into my music. I every time I sit down and get creative, all of those all of life just kinds of fades, kinds of fades away, and I can just be Leela and I can be with my emotions and what I'm thinking now and what I like, and what if I do this next? It is it's a transformation, really. And wait, the transformation is being in the moment in your music. That's saying yes, okay, go ahead. And then you know, and and being okay with being sad. I'm good with being sad. In fact, I wish I could cry more often. I don't cry, I always cry at the weird moments, not at the right moments. But that's okay. That's that happens. Yeah, and especially so, and at that time you were on faculty. Uh you were running a college program, you were as public facing. There was a whole there was a window, depending on how long you've been teaching when you're listening to this. It was like you and Bradley and Tim, you all were just, you know, kind of running the whole piano teacher conference world, doing your thing. Gosh, the great uh fourth Kenny, like that that whole crew. You all were and then this moment, and you were so public-facing, and so I'm Leela Vis. But then you had to become like that Lee Levist, which brought you into what feels like a really grounded Lee Levist that's actually using the tools that you spent. And this is this is kind of my personal philosophy of music, is like I've been playing guitar forever, and I really feel like I'm just starting to get to understand why I'm doing it. And I'm finding and loving it more, and I'm feeling less self-conscious. I'm less uh what the whatever the word was for the uh the um needing other people's approval. And I remember I remember being a young player. My grandfather was a concert classical pianist, he was a big band leader. He was so good and uh so cultured and so fantastic. And I remember being a young guitarist and just thinking, well, I'm not gonna play for him as a student. I'm terrible, you know, or any, you know, I don't want to play for people. I'll wait till I get good. And so I'd lock myself in my room and I'd still, you know, I'd do the talent shows or the recitals, I'd do fine. But I in my heart, I was like, I want to wait until I'm great. And I got done with college, had done all that, and I was like, I'm just not good enough. And then all of a sudden, I'd been playing for a really long time, been playing professionally. And in my heart, I still felt like now I'm supposed to be good and I'm not really that good. So now people are probably gonna be like, why isn't he better than he is? Right. And you're like, and it took me like what 30 years of being an adult to understand like how ridiculous that was. But these transformational moments that bring us deeper, you basically spent your life building a skill set to support you through that and to be able to transmute those emotions that are so hard to identify. And I'm I'm guessing, I know on a daily basis, small emotions. Like I sometimes can't tell if I'm mad or excited or confused. I can't even put a word on it, right? But these massive moments, it's like you know what's happening there. That's massive sadness that you know what that is. That's you're fully present to it. And to be able to have your art as a tool to transmute that into something is just is so amazing. Well, and we all have it. If we're a musician, we have that. So lean on it and see it as an investment. I and I don't talk about that a lot to my families because I know they're they're here for piano lessons. I just want to, you know, try it out and stuff. But the people who are there for the long haul, like Adrian, you know, just graduating as senior, I can tell that it's part of him. And um, he's a quiet young man. I wasn't gonna preach to him, but I think deep in my heart, I know that he will rely on music the rest of his life as a part of him for consoling him when he's down. Carter did that all the time. He when he was at uh college, even before the accident, he would go find an empty practice room and just play just to decompress. And what a gift that is for us uh to give as teachers to our students that they can rely on something like that. A lot of people don't have that. Where would they go then? You know, then they go to their phones and zoom scroll or whatever. But if they can head to an instrument and clear their head with creativity, life is good. Yes, and also just to experience humanity, I often feel like my studio has been through some really challenging life moments that I've experienced. And I feel like those kids that were coming through that that we were really close with, and their families came and helped out, they're part of the community, whatever was going down. I look back and I feel like me being human in a one-on-one basis with these younger people, I wasn't giving them credit for being the humans that they already were and how open they were. And I know that we read the books we read about the great mentors and the relationship between teachers and pupils. It's it's really there's a lot more to teaching piano or teaching guitar than just putting notes or even just being able to say, I can improvise in in all the modes. Like, okay, great. But really understanding what you're saying, being able to identify that a lot of the times the artists that you love, you're not loving them for their technical ability, you're loving them for the person that they are and what they've experienced and what they're expressing in their experience. I I heard this quote that I'd love to get your take on. I it was in an interview with David Bowie. And and I just saw this, and boy, it's gonna be in all my slide decks coming. I can just feel, but David Bowie was talking about branding. And bring and hit and he's like, for my whole experience of, because I see him as such an authentic artist, is he said, to me, branding is uh the equation of product plus personality, right? And that becomes your brand. This is my personality and this is my product that I do. And I would include that it it also adds experience and depth, right? And my definition of what brand would be, because without, you know, we're you are building a brand, right? You're building a brand of this human that's experienced these things that can communicate, uses this tool for that. And it's very compelling, right? What we're talking about is so deeply related to business, it's just very tangential and human, right? As it should be. So, yeah, what how would you respond to that quote? I think people know me as being vulnerable and open. And ever since the accident, I have less of a filter. And I also have an angst meter, which tells me, no, don't do that. Oh, stop doing that. So it gives me that sense of margin, which is really helpful, you know, because you can say yes to a lot of things. And now I'm learning to say no, I could because I know that's gonna make me busier here and here and here, and I'm gonna give up time in different places. So, to my point, I would say that my brand is people can rely on me to be honest, and I'm not gonna waste their time. Can you go back to that angst meter just for a second, too? You I kind of couldn't hear any. I heard that. I was like, Yeah, you could call it an angstometer or an angstometer, either way. Lila Vis angst angstometer. I expect to see it on your website. It's just yeah, and I had that angstometer was was poking its ugly head when I was thinking about this recital coming up because I knew it was going to be work and I was gonna have to forge my way. I was gonna have to make it up as I go. Chat GPT could not help me figure this out. I had to figure it out myself. And that, yeah, that takes courage and it takes curiosity. And I think that's kind of how I ended up doing it is because I like your phrase, I knew it would be helpful in the end, and I knew it would be beneficial. So I guess my brand is one that I'm always willing to do the what if. What if I try this? And I'm here with you. I understand you, I know you. My brand is definitely one who came from a very classically trained background, not knowing what I should have known and feeling very deprived of a lot of knowledge. And I know that most of the people that come to me, follow me, are feeling that same way. And so, yes, I do believe that branding is all about personality plus the products that she put out. Everyone's gonna be different. And I remember I was my old website was called 88piano keys.me, and Jana Carlson was helping me with my website. And I said, What should I call it now? And she said, Well, LeelaVis.com. Like, well, why? She's like, Because people know you as LeelaVis. You should just be Leela Vist.com. Okay, I guess I will, you know, and um I I'm glad she talked me into that because what you get is me. And maybe it wasn't time to be LeelaVis.com before, right? Right. I didn't know who she was. Yeah. Yeah, the seasonality and the self-awareness. When you talk about the angstometer, I was a man, I as soon as you mentioned, I was thinking about your recital, but I was also thinking about that started to poke its head out its head out earlier. And I the the big thing is that we're talking, like especially with young artists that come out that aren't getting, they don't, they're trying to find their direction for what they're going to do, how they're going to impact, how they're going to be helpful. Uh, and maybe they have a classical background and they're hearing this and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I would freak out if you put a chord chart in front of me. You know, the real interesting thing, I think, is self-awareness. Is in that moment you're like, hey, I'm not really pumped about teaching afternoons this. And that was an impetus, but that was also part of a that opened your eyes, right? And this everything that is ever interesting, or I think of them as my wife and I call them inflection points. These are inflection points where you make a choice to explore something else. You might let a current project go, you might start a new project, you might explore a new learning idea, you might put so yeah, you had an inflection point there that came because I think it was kind of like you said, right? I'm not really pumped on teaching in the afternoons. And oh, this lead sheet does not look like anything I know how to do in this core chart, and I'm gonna lean into it. And that has been something that you've probably refined, and we don't talk about that enough. Young people need to learn how to follow their instincts, right? I remember being in a um in college in a recording studio class, and I it was, I don't even know why I'm sharing this because it's embarrassing, but we were all doing our projects for a recording at that time. Everyone was doing these like really beautiful, like classical pieces or lush sounding things. And I made this like really crazy heavy metal thing because I was really into that into the guitar. And I remember the whole studio class looking at me, just like that's terrible. And I thought it was really cool until I saw their reactions. And that created like more of a negative inflection point. So I was like, I guess this isn't that cool. I guess this isn't something that that people would be into. And I kind of and it kind of quelled it. But my point is that there's many ways we can experience this and be and trust that our instincts are good, even if we're young, right? And especially all that happens as we get older as we know ourselves better. And our angstometer, I really like that by the way, becomes more refined. Uh-huh. Oh, there you go. Yeah. And here, here's another phrase that I love. I don't remember where I learned this from, but never should on yourself. Never should on yourself. Go deep. Keep going. Oh, I should be doing this. I should be playing Mozart, but I really want to play from this court chart. Or I should be doing this, but I but I I really want to do this instead. And I feel like the classical world in particular is telling us always to should. You must you should do this, you should do that. And I think when I heard that phrase, that helped me let go a lot of things that were keeping me from doing what I really wanted to do. Leela, I'm afraid I'm an inveterate shoulder. Can you yeah, like I was like, oh gosh, I uh could can you uh I was like, I've only said that to myself maybe 80 times in the last 12 hours. Can you yeah, talk talk about that a little bit? Don't shoot on yourself. Yes. I guess what I what I mean by that is okay, if you don't want to teach on Fridays, but you should anyway, then make it find a pathway so you don't have to teach on Fridays anymore. Those are just things that because other people are doing something doesn't mean you have to do it too. And I think that comes down to that curiosity again. What are you curious or are you just following what everyone else is doing? Well, yes. Are you wanting an end result and are you following a playbook that somebody else did because you think that's a good way to follow? Right? Yes, I do do that a lot. Uh oh, it's confession time. No, yeah, just it just really it resonates because it's a it's a natural, it's a if there's something that you want to do, it's often you're looking at a path that has been taken before and you try to emulate it. And you really do, it's a it's a quick way to sometimes cover ground, but also lose the real learning. And the real authentic nature that the spark had to begin with. And I like you just said something about letting go, right? And letting go is the idea of attachment to an idea. I'm going to be a great classical pianist. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to win this competition. I'm going to do whatever. I'm going to do this thing. You're letting go of those ideas when your actual drive is curiosity. I have a question for you. But by the way, this is nothing that I thought we were going to be talking about today, but it's so good. So thank you for just for allowing this to take this all this direction because it's awesome. Uh, I have a question. So what is how do you let's say your angstometer goes off or your curiosity moves in another direction, mid-project? Something you know, you've got, you've you have, and I want to get into this a little bit. You have a lot of projects on your website, a lot of things that you've done, a lot of ideas that you're sharing. At what point does curiosity or angst, does that, or the you're gonna stop being like, I should do this? Because sometimes you have to should it to get something done, right? That maybe like, how do you work that in the moment? How do you decide what you're gonna do with your day, what you're gonna do with your month, what you're gonna do, you know, for the next period of time? Such a good question. And I wish I had the perfect answer. I really don't, other than the fact that students are my bread and butter. And so I, you know, that brings in income. So I have to be responsible for them. And so I schedule them when it works for me. So I'm definitely delegating hours for teaching and I'm finding more margin to do some of the other things I want to. And then I also still have a church job. So I have to be loyal to them, show up, practice, do all the things that I need to do. So once those are set aside, then it's those are the hardest decisions. Well, what am I gonna do now? I have this membership space to create. That means I have to create content on a regular basis. What am I gonna do for that content? So I think that's part of why I enjoy this profession so much because my wheels are always turning because I have I have something I should be doing, even though I said don't should on yourself. But it's aligned in what your vision is. Correct. It's different. Yeah, it's like this is what I need to be doing. It's what how about this is what I need to be doing now, or I get to be doing. Yes, right. There's the should and the yeah, okay. I get to be doing. Yeah, and I use that word a lot. I get to. And I it was interesting. I created, and this is the weird thing about me is I can be very, very busy, and then all of a sudden an idea will come to me. I don't know. Do you know Big Magic by Elizabeth? Of course, Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah, yeah. And so she talks about if ideas come to you or come from you. Do you have an opinion on that? Oh, I am I do, but yeah, keep going. Okay. Yeah. Because ideas come to me. I don't feel like they come from me. But once they come to me, they won't let me go. And so for some reason, I had to drive, I had to drive to Boulder. There was a reason why I drove to Boulder, but I drove to Boulder and back for a locals teachers association. And I was listening to my favorite composer, Oli. He was the only one I could listen to after the accident, and I still listen to his music all the time. And I just kept thinking, this reminds me of the Artemis II mission. It sounds like someone going to the moon and back. And by the time I got home, I could not stop thinking about how I'm going to write a piece about them flying to the moon and around the moon and coming back home because we ended up watching the splash down in real time. And it was just so powerful. And those things won't let me go. So that's not even a should. That is like, I must do this. And I think those are the moments that we're all living for. It wasn't because I was going to make so much money from it and everyone's going to love it. That's not why I did it. I did it because I was, it was calling my name. I had to do it. So I feel like you have to have a balance of shoulds or need to or get-to's. And then you just make time for those moments where everything else fades in the background and you just go and do it. I agree a million percent. When you have an idea that grabs a hold of you, I feel like your wisest option is generally to put everything aside and to channel that emption. Whatever that is, whatever that thing is, if you look at your body of work over a pain, you know, so you're just starting out, you don't have that. But you know, we've been doing this a long time. You look back at the moments where you've created things you're really proud of or that have been really successful, they generally come in that spark first. Yeah. And then I you often wonder, you're like, how many sparks did I ignore? Right. It's like, oh gosh, I've got this barista job or whatever I'm doing, or I've got a gig, or I've got this thing, I'll do it some other time. It's like that idea of how Paul McCartney talked about waking up in the middle of the night and hearing lyrics in his head for like Blackbird. Like, what if he didn't wake up and maybe write those down? You know, and so that's the we all experience that. I wonder, as we're we're both doing these things and we're trying to, you know, help other people more. I wonder if there's a way to cultivate more moments like that, or if just the more life that you have, the more experience you can draw from, right? The more, the more, and that because that's our when you say the ideas come to you. I believe a lot of the ideas come from the the bedrock of experience, right? You know, as we're as we're composing or writing. And then just in your case, there was just a recent experience that really blew your mind and put you in that in that creative space. I want to ask you about your about your membership and about teachers in general, right? Because you've you've been on this train of helping piano teachers and expanding the realm of piano pedagogy and have just been a really big player in the space for a long time. How do you feel about the world of piano education, being a private music teacher, just being a musician right now? What are your thoughts on that in this universe we're living in? That's a big question. I will first of all, sometimes I feel like what I offer is like breeze. It's we love it, it's really good, but it's not a necessary food group for us to keep moving forward. And so people put push creativity to the side. Oh, it's I've got to just make my bottom line. I have to teach so many students, there's no time for creativity in a lesson. I feel like people treat it like frosting or maybe even sprinkles on the cake instead of centering it and making it part of every lesson. And so I feel like I'm always kind of an evangelical type of creative. I'm standing on my soapbox and saying, listen, teachers, if you really want to keep your students engaged, they need to find their own creative voice. And so that is my platform through Space to Create. And I feel like if teachers practice the art of making space to create, then that will rub off on their students. So I'm hoping that that trickles down through my membership and through the products that I create. And I would think the main thing, you know, if we're talking about bottom line, creativity key keeps your students with you, keeps them engaged, keeps them coming back for more. And so this recital where they read from chord charts and played with a band, that's showing all of my parents that oh, they're versatile musicians. They can do that. And then they oh, you know, after Maddie played Benny and the Jets later on, she played her own composition, which was beautiful. She also played Sonatinas. Oh, and by the way, she learned the solo. Elton John takes a solo in Benny and the Jets for a verse, and she learned the solo from a YouTube tutorial. It was like such a smash up of everything. But the point being is that you I'm hoping that I can help people unlock their creativity. It gets stunted as adults, you know, where our left brain tells us that there's no time for that. You know, that's not how I make money. And I'm trying to push them into that realm of this is important. This is gonna help them. This is gonna help you help your students with life skills, but also help you as a player and a teacher. I, you know, sometimes we forget that yes, we're teaching piano, we're teaching music, but we also have to work on our own skills. I would say that's my long answer to your question is that am I Bree cheese? Yes, but I'm more than that. I feel like it is, I'm a substantial food group that everyone needs to enjoy and partake. Who is the tell us about who is in your group right now? Who's in your membership? Okay, who's someone have yeah, like just tell me about it? Tell me about a personality type or a teacher. Yeah, describe someone that you might have the most impact at helping. Okay. Where are they? I'll start at the bottom tier is the, I don't like the word bottom tier, but the lowest tier is the entry tier. Yeah, the entry tier, the curiosity tier. And that's where I have they have access to my full scoop on chords, which is takes people through chords from triads through seventh chords, all the things, figured bass and nashville numbers. So I feel like, and that I got from Bradley, you gotta know your chords. And when you know your chords, you can get creative. And then my next tier has um access to that chord course along with what I call jump starts. And those are delivered about once a month or every other month. And those are units that teachers use, but also students use. They've got video tutorials on how to get creative within a certain style or with a certain um theme. I have, for example, all of my students are trying uh out the heart and soul of Spain, is what I call it, the Andalusian cadence. And I'm showing them options for them to get creative within that style. I have one on modulation, just different things like that. And then my third tier, those are the people that I only have six members right now, and that's all I'm taking, but they have access to all of my composions, everything that I offer, they get it for because they are paying a monthly fee. And those are the people, you know, like wow, I found six people who really want to do this, which is so cool. They love my composions. They come, they compose a piece. We look at everything in real time as a group. Oh, what if you try this? What if you do that? And so a lot of them are composing for their students or just want to learn how to compose so that they can help their students. So there's there's a few of them out there, and I'm so excited about that that I can fill that need for them. And Leela, what do you? I know you're always up to something. Is there a do you have a vision for your next season? Are you in the are you deep in it or are you actively seeking? Are your eyes open? Like, what is uh what do you see for yourself in the next couple of years? It's really hard to be your own boss and tell yourself what to do next. And I'm always figuring things out, and I think sometimes, you know, when you when you confuse, you lose. So I apologize to my followers when I get a little flaky and I change things up. But right now I have something called composiums, or I've had those for a couple of years. And now what I'm switching off to is more of a lab first where people can just sign up and get creative. I have a lab coming up on June 8th called the Pop Chord Playground, meaning I'm gonna take popular chord progressions and then show how you can evolve them into more sophisticated improvisations with adding ninths and elevenths, but in a way that is doable. And then I'm hoping that will feed into my composium, pop to piece, is what it's called. There's gonna be a few people like, oh, I got this good idea. I think I want to write it down. I want to learn how to notate it. Um, so I think that's my new vision for this space to create. Let people dabble. And if they want to lock something into cement and notate it, then they can move on to the composition. So that's kind of my latest new venture. Well, you know, I think that you know you really have shared what I love is today you've shared your playbook for how you've done things without it having to be exactly how you've done things, right? Which is knowing yourself, leaning away from the things that are not working, making space for things to work, always keeping your eyes peeled and your heart open for curiosity and things you're actually interested in. And how about the idea of just knowing when something makes you uncomfortable and it's a good idea to lean into? Like that's if you're listening to this, you can do all these things, and your career might look, you might end up being a lawyer. I don't know. But these are guiding principles that allow you to express yourself authentically. And yeah, life's going to happen in a myriad of different ways and uh different opportunities will show up. But I love that all the things that you shared uh and your philosophy for how you came about them and the way you express them, they're so applicable to everything, right? And so I really appreciate you you sharing that. But I'd love to ask you one more question, which is if you were talking as yourself now to someone who's maybe just about to graduate with a performance degree or a pedagogy degree, and they're stressing, right? Because, and I actually think they're stressing less than the people that are graduating right now with IT degrees, right? Because that's true. I know I I I personally believe that an art degree, a humanities degree, a music degree is absolutely powerful, even if you're moving into the corporate sector right now, because we're the one thing that you just can't throw clawed at and have it. We are important and we will continue to be. But away from that, I think there's value in the career itself, and I think it's very viable if you apply the ideas that you've applied to it. If you were talking to somebody just about to come out of school, what would be kind of your encouragement to them or your advice to them now in this in this realm? Okay, a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I think it would have been nice to be in a group of teachers, like teaching at a school. That was not even something that I thought about when I embarked on my career as a piano teacher. And now I look back and think how fun that would have been to rub shoulders with mentors who could share what they their experience. Because even when I joined a music teachers association back in the day, people weren't sharing. There was a mentality that no, no, no, we don't share our secrets because you know, then that means that you might get better at what you do, those kind of things. And so, any way you can make yourself available to those who have gone before you, I think is really important. And side note, I was just talking to my hairdresser about cutting hair, and she said the best place to learn how to cut hair is at what Sam's what's it called? Like supercuts or something, supercuts, yeah. So just the place where they've got people coming in and out all day long, right? And that's when you learn how to cut hair, is when you have to cut all day long. You learn and you learn from other people who are in the salon. So I thought that was a very fascinating answer to my question. She didn't learn in beauty school how to cut hair, she learned by doing it and rubbing shoulders with the right people. So, same thing as a young teacher moving into this world. Find circles that can help you and bring you along. And hey, we will feed you students. Usually all of us are too busy and we're we want to pass along students. So I think that's a really valuable thing is to find community. Um, did I answer your question? You did, and that's a recurring theme to your whole day. Your entire journey has been, and I feel this is something I feel so strong. And reading your book is the people around you, the community you build, that is so important. And musician at the center of it is massive. I'd add to what you said too. I I love this about getting out of school and maybe finding a place where you can be a part of something and rub shoulders. I also found when I was a really young teacher, I had the insight to know that the people I was studying with who were older and much more skilled, I could learn a lot from them, but I had an energy that they didn't, I had a closeness to learning and to the process that they didn't have. And that was a, and I was able to see that that there was certain students who would rather study with me, right? Because, and I was able to bring that thing to the people I was studying with and remind them of what it's like to learn and that energy behind it. I would, you know, just in talking with you today, the other thing that I really wish, and it's just been really apparent, is you you you said how back then teachers didn't share ideas, right? And I remember that so well. And I've been talking to, and a lot I just joined the board of the Guitar Foundation of America, which I'm really excited about, but I've been obviously really involved with MTNA for a long time. And but I've been talking a lot with the strings community, the voice community, which is pretty, but it's really interesting how much ground when you're speaking to a room full of piano teachers versus a room of violin teachers, how much more down the road of community-based uh colleague-level conversations outside of academia, right, have been had how businesses are run, how studios are run. I think that piano has progressed more quickly, I think, than other disciplines. Like guitar players, we no one still talks to anybody, especially like the no, not really. There's not like a community of guitar teachers. There's a guitar foundation, but that's all classical guitar, which is a very small subset of guitar. And I love it, but it's that's the reality. We're all disparate, we're all doing our things, we're all often like to think of ourselves as guitarists first before teachers. So I would really I think that your messaging would be so great to other instruments. And I think that when the ideas that we talked about today, which were pretty profound, and you shared some really just useful and just very um very open ideas, I think it would blow people's minds if you gave this to like a room of string teachers. Because there's a bedrock that you were speaking from today of those years. Those, like I when I interviewed Tim or talked to all the all these folks, that you guys were doing that, moving that conversation forward, building the community forward, which was really awesome. And so I hope that message can bounce into the other instruments. I think it's I think it's really timely. So, not that you're looking for something else to do, but I love to speak and I I love inspiring people because I was inspired. I found my niche, which I thought I didn't want to do. So it can happen for everyone. And it's more than a job when we're teaching music. It really is. It can be so much more than that. Agreed. And you know, Leela, thank you so much for taking this time today and this amazing conversation and sharing so much. Uh, I hope we we can do this again. Hope you'll put the put the cans back on and pull out the mic. Okay, great. Awesome. And uh, we will share all those links to your book. And of course, people can learn more about you by going to your website, lilavist.com. That's probably the best spot, right? Yeah. And you're all over the socials as well, or just go see you at a conference where it's always there. So thank you so much, Leela. It's been great. And I really appreciate you being here today. Thank you, Eric. It was great talking with you. You've been listening to the 440 podcast. If you found this helpful, subscribe at Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts and leave a quick rating. It makes a big difference. To learn more about how to run your teaching studio with less stress and more joy, visit fonts.com. I'm Eric Brenner. Thanks for being here.