Making Lessons a Team Sport: How John Kozicki Built a Rock School

John Kozicki quit a marketing career and a touring band to teach guitar. He then built two music schools around a single conviction: students play longer, learn more, and have more fun when they're playing with other people.

John is the founder of Michigan Rock School in Oakland County, Michigan, and the host of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast. He's built two schools from the ground up, operated both, and sold one. Today he runs a year-round band program, coaches at least one band a week, and is finishing a mixed-instrument beginner band curriculum he plans to release to schools everywhere.

We talk about a star instructor of eight years just moved on, tech transitions happening all at once, and what makes his school model work so well. The band program philosophy, the trimester structure, how he thinks about qualifying families at enrollment, his upcoming ska band camp, and what changed in him the night he took his daughter to see Green Day.

We discuss the "curse of knowledge..." why the further you are from beginner, the harder things can become, and about what it means to invite your audience in, not just perform for them.

This was a very fun chat! 🌊

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

My guest today started out with a marketing career in a touring band, and then he built two schools around this simple idea that students play longer, learn more, and have more fun when they're playing with other people. John Kozicki is the founder of Michigan Rock School in Michigan and the host of Rock School Proprietor Podcast. He's built two schools from the ground up, sold one of them, and is now working on a band program curriculum he plans to share with studios everywhere. Today we're going to talk about how he built his unique music career and how he's helping other music schools around the world. John, thanks so much for being here. It's great to see you. How are you doing today, man?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Eric, I'm doing well and uh really happy to join you on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Yeah, yeah. Last time we, well, a couple times ago, I guess we chatted. I was on yours. And since then, I saw you speaking at NAM. We ran into each other there. You had a great talk there. So what's going on in the John Kozicki world this week?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Well, this week um we are uh, you know, it's funny, I'm kind of in a season of challenge with the music school, honestly. I was talking with my wife this morning and uh recently had a longtime fantastic instructor leave my studio. She's uh about to have her second child. Life changes, right? So trying to replace her. We're going through some changes in some of the tech that we use. Um, I'm just, I feel I'm in the thick of it, you know, and it's all stuff that that I've experienced before, but you know that heavy feeling that you get when you're in those situations. So boy, I didn't, I didn't mean to start this on such a downer.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

No, that is not a downer at all. And actually, I'm really glad you did. And there's a bunch of directions that we can just kind of dive right into. You mentioned the seasons and the seasonality, but the thing that I've really heard, and that I just want to just poke on right away, because I think, you know, I was sitting in my living room yesterday and there was a windstorm, and we have this fabulous old plum tree, Asian plum tree that we've had forever, and it blew over, right? On my and my neighbor's fence. And the feeling that I got in my stomach, realizing that I'd have to deal with it, hopefully nothing was injured, you know, that moment of like, I have to deal with this, was the same feeling I get as a business owner when you get, it's like it's they're the same emotion, right? It's a physical, like, oh gosh, this person's leaving and I've got to replace this teacher. Uh, if you were listening to this podcast in the last week, you've probably had one of those moments that comes up. How am I gonna pay for this thing that just, you know, my this instrument repair? How am I gonna replace this teacher at my school? Those are the those are the real things. So, how am I gonna transition this old tech into this new tech that we're using? I'm glad you brought that up first because so many people come on, they're like, oh man, everything's cool, it's all great. I'm crushing it, I'm just closing so many deals. I'm so and with but it's really good to say to address that emotion. And when you said it, I connected with you because I I felt it. Am I am I close to that? You're heavy, a lot of stuff happened.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, well, exactly. And and I, you know, I I was about to head out for my morning walk today, and it my wife could sense it, and I was like, you know what? It's just that I I'm going through this season right now where, like, yes, I've had these problems before, but it seems like I've got three or four of them all at once, and so it's just really heavy. And I'm trying to remind myself, I've dealt with each one of these things before, made it through. You know, yeah, it's a little bit heavier now because they're all coming at once, but deep breath, just task at hand, and we'll make it through.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

You mentioned first having a really great teacher leaving. Is that the thing that's most top of mind if you were to say, oh, this is the thing that I am prioritizing the most or that I need to address the most?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

No, no, that's uh I would say the the tech stuff is is the one that we're like really addressing right now because as you know, tech moves so fast, right? And and when it's integral in your business, you've got to address those problems right away. I think we're on we're on the tail end of that. So I think we've got a handle on that. But circling back to the instructor, um this is this instructor, she she was one of like she's one of my star instructors. And and to clarify, she's already gone. She's gone off on maternity leave, and she's let me know, like, yeah, life changes, we're not coming back. And uh but she's been with me for eight years. Whoa. I'm I met her when she was like a 16 or 17-year-old kid, like way back when I first started my studio. One of the one of the community building things I used to do was host open mic nights. And uh they were unique because I was hosting them for all ages. So it became this great experience for young musicians to come and and have an opportunity to play. And uh sh she just wandered in one day and sort of blew me away with her stinger songwriter vibe, and just we kept in touch and ultimately I hired her, and she's been one of the most amazing instructors that I've ever had. And uh so this very special, and leading up to it, um, you know, she's in her mid to late 20s, and leading up to it, when she told me, I was like, oh, I knew this day was gonna come. You know, I knew this day was gonna come at some point. And in the back of my head, I felt like I had been preparing myself. But you know, you can't compla and then so then when I when I transitioned out of the sort of the remorse and like, oh, the loss of this thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Um in the moment, you said you were kind of prepared for it, but like did it I leaned into support.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, I leaned into support.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

So do you feel good about that? Like you felt you felt good about because sometimes we get in these moments and we're like, ah, I should have done this, but you know, compassion's all generally the right idea to take. So you you feel good about how that went.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Oh well, yeah, yeah. I mean, actually, she just texted me right before we got on this call. And uh, so um I I leaned into being supportive and understanding and and like celebratory, that she's she's in this this phase of life that I remember being in, like welcoming the my second child, right? I remember how amazing that felt. And uh so that is uh like way more important to me than yeah, now I'm gonna have to try and find another instructor. And when I transitioned into that part of the challenge, I just tried to come to terms with I can't, she's not replaceable in the sense of like, all right, I don't just get another guitar instructor in here, I don't just get like another person. This is a new phase, right? And I'm going to welcome the opportunity to welcome someone else into my studio to do maybe similar tasks, but like I can't replace her, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

And that's a beautiful thing because the brand and your product and your value proposition while she was with you had a certain thing that it's not gonna have. It'll have something different. You're and you're opening that door up. I'm I'm leaning into this because I know that everyone listening can inventory. It could be a this it's the exact same thing when a student comes in and says, Hey, you know, I'm I'm not taking lessons anymore, which I for many years I really did poorly with that. I took it so personally as their one-on-one guitar teacher. And I look back and it took me, I had to practice it to be like, oh, when someone's tenure is done with you, for whatever reason, you just, you know, tell them you love them and thank you and can't wait to see you over the summer. Come jam with me, whatever that thing is. And it's it's hard and it's um, it is a learning, it's like a life school thing, right? Because these are these are very personal relationships. You have been this person's mentor. Uh, they've done great work for you. They've added an imprint to your business and to your place in the community. And yeah, you're accepting that's gonna be different. And I'm gonna find somebody else and I'm gonna go through it. And I'm really glad you shared it because I know every single person listening has experienced something like this recently, that emotion that comes up. And the and it's really important as a business owner, a business leader, a person in the community. This is something that I've really put this under risk. I was I was on a walk today thinking about the idea of risk, right? When we take on anything, we start a business, we anything comes with risk in life, right? When you that we hired that person, there's the risk they're gonna leave someday. And we have to practice, and musicians in general are very risk averse, right? They because it's a heavy emotion, but it's part of being a leader, right? Is being able to have critic take criticism, criticism, to have people leave your studio, to have employees move on, uh, to have difficult things happen, to have tech break, uh, have roofs leak. All these things happen uh when you do cool things. And I love that you mentioned you're like, I'm doing really, really cool things. And I have a list of cool things that you're doing that I want to talk about today. But I love that you start out like, hey, I've I've got some life. I'm in a season of life because that's something we can all relate to. Uh and it's easy to just say, here's my list of successes I'm experiencing right now.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Well, and to piggyback a little bit on that, the the I think the business lesson is being open to growth. Because if we hold so tight onto how things have been going, how we have been operating, everything that we have done up to this point, we're grasping that, right? That doesn't leave as much room for us to really explore and find new things and experience the friction that comes with growth.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Ooh, yeah, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

The f the friction? Are you talking about the friction? Yeah, just rephrase what you said, because that's a really great point.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

The friction that comes with growth.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

The more the more we hold on to what we perceive as either success or what got us to where we were, the more we don't want to lose that, right? Does that make sense? And but the you there is no real growth without some sort of friction. Right. So when these challenges come up, when when we experience some sort of friction, as much as it's a challenge in the moment, if if we approach it as like, okay, I'm not gonna let this take me out of the game. Um the only way out of it is through, then we are gonna come out the other side, having grown, having learned in a better place.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, I'm I'm glad you said that. And I think there's this other piece too that uh in these moments, I was actually, I have an I have a new student who is uh an executive and really looking to you know really to get serious about guitar and add that into into his life. And we were just talking about this yesterday. And my my recommendation during this first long lesson of getting to know each other is I would it was just kind of like, you know, getting through this, you know, what you're trying to do creatively and artistically, I would really encourage just keeping your eyes open. And in business, I do the same thing. When we have a heavy moment and we have a thing, a season that we're dealing with, is the practice is starting to really look for opportunities that you might not know were there. Right. You just start, and it's I can't, it's hard to describe, but this is how Fonds was started. My studio started, like kind of my whole life has been this series of being something going on, and then I'm in a space where I'm like, I start paying attention. And I kind of and it's weird, but I'm like, universe, I could really use something new. Like, I think I'm ready to start teaching again. And I recently was like, I really need more students, I'm ready to start reaching more students and do more lessons. And as soon as I did that, in the next couple of weeks, I had like five phone calls for new awesome students. And it's I think it's because I was paying attention and coming out of a place of being maybe a little that heavy emotion that we were talking about at the beginning, transmuting that into a place of openness. Uh, and that's where the new person comes in that might be a new rock star teacher or inspire a new way that you run your school. So yeah, it's it's it's interesting to talk about because no one talks about it, but it is part of the process of doing awesome things.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yes, yes. Since you mentioned the student, I'm gonna throw this one in. So when I was a when I was a young guitar student myself, in um I think all all guitar players go through that phase where they're like, I want to play faster. I want to like, I just want to play really fast and impress whoever, right? Um I was focused on sweep arpeggios. And this is the metal era, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So I'm right there with you. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah, yes, yeah. And I just hit a wall and I was like, I why am I not getting better at these? Why, why can't I play faster? Why can't I do this thing that that I think I really want to do? And then I it's like I had this awakening one day that I don't actually like sweep arpeggios. And I thought, like, why am I pursuing this? This is not really something that I'm excited about. It's it's more of like kind of a trick that I can use to show off. And when I had that realization, I also realized like what I really get fired up about is songwriting. What I really like to do is create. And it almost like a complete 180. I shifted gears. I was like, all right, well, I'm not gonna focus on sweep arpeggios anymore because I really don't, that doesn't fire me up. Or my passion is is songwriting and writing songs and creating. And and I leaned into that and haven't really looked back since.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

That's a great, that's a great story. That that is a really wonderful story, uh, because there's this journey of doing things you don't want to do because you think you should, because it can often help you get somewhere, but also coming to a place of maturity where you wake up and say, no, this isn't me. Like I only have X amount of energy to do these things, and this is not going to be one of those things that I focus on. It's not because you couldn't get there if like it was your light, if you really wanted to do it, if it was your thing. Sometimes it's a physical, uh, a physical attribute that will hold you back from whatever that thing is, but that probably wasn't it. It was that you needed to get in touch with what's actually important to you.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

And I feel like we meet with a ton of people and you can tell really quickly if they're living their day-to-day life in alignment with what actually matters, right? And to and and I love that you had that moment where you're like, oh, this is the thing I'm gonna do. That goes right back to what I was just saying about paying attention to the universe. That includes yourself, right? Because the opportunities, when you when you had that moment, you're like, I'm not feeling the sweep thing, but I keep doing it because every it was a societal norm for a period of time. Like I spent five an hour and a half a day working on them for a period of my life. That like Steve Bys 12-hour workout he published or whatever, right? You those things came out and you're just like, this is what we're doing. But I think that what you said and what everybody goes through is saying, wow, um, if this is something I really want to do, if it's really important to me, I can go through playing a really bad guitar recital, right? I can bomb a gig. I can, because it's what I really want to do. Uh, and knowing the difference between friction required for growth and knowing that the end result you're seeking isn't actually important to you, right? Because we're getting very philosophical, but then you're like, well, the journey can be really impactful and important. But it's really what aligns with who you are and knowing that. So when you after that, is that what led you into your now curriculum that defines your school and your program and that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

I I think I think had I not had that awakening, I I probably would not have traveled down the path that I went. Because I've always been more of a creator uh and want to like tinker with things and put things together, right? So I think that's that's sort of the the origin of me deciding, you know what, this path that I'm on right here, which is the, as you mentioned, the societal norm, right? The the shredding metal guitar player, uh having that realization that that's not really what I'm going for. What I really want to do is I want to I want to create an impact by writing my own songs. I want to put a band together, I want to record an album, I want to play shows, I want to embrace the the magic that is associated with making music with and for other people. Um, so I think you know, it's a vast, vast journey, but I think it put me on that path, right? Because now in hindsight, looking at the curriculum that uh that uh I've been creating, which is a mixed instrument beginner band curriculum, the uh the the impetus is really about instead of putting kids in private lessons first, what you do is you put them in a room together and you teach them the fundamentals of rhythm and how to play together first and slowly from there teach them the more foundational details about how to read rhythms and how to play a keyboard and everything else. So the idea is that we're foregoing the need for private lessons until students get a bit more focused on what it is that they feel they need to learn. Because I think initially that passion for playing together is what sort of hooks you in. That passion for creating music with other people, it's the Victor Wooten thing. It's the Victor Wooten philosophy, right? Like before you learn to read and write, you learn to communicate. So it's it's that general principle applied to a mixed mixed instrument class.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So when you uh go to your website and you call your school about getting set up for a lessons, I'm a parent of a young kid. The first introduction, I wouldn't be signing up for guitar lessons. I'd be signing up for an introductory band class uh with a group of other kids.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Sure. Yeah, I mean I'll qualify that by by saying there is sort of an age range that I think this is the sweet spot for. Um and it might not be the right choice for everyone. But I I do think that when I explain to people, like, okay, well, what is it that you want your child to do in music lessons? When I ask that question, right? Well, what are you trying to get from these music lessons for your child? Do you want them to read and write music? Do you want them to um uh do competitions and and things like that? That's not what this is for, right? But if someone says, you know, I just really want them to find their thing and they seem to be interested in music, and we tried sports and that wasn't their thing. So I thought maybe music would be it, that's gonna be the student that I want for this program.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Oh, so you have you know exactly you through a couple of questions. Like if I said, Well, my son's a genius and I he plans to go to Stanford, and I heard that music can help him get into Stanford. You're like, okay, this probably isn't, you know, they're not worried about winning the MTNA competition. Okay, cool. That's not me. Uh, this is you you can qualify by asking the parents a few questions, what their intentions are for this. I'm I bet yeah I was also imagining, you know, I I talked to so many parents and say, you know what? I just I started playing when I was a kid and I quit. And I always wished I would have kept doing it. And I just I want my kid to be able to play music that I never got to learn.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

That's like the one that I feel would be perfect for what you're describing.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Let's play that out. Let's play that out. If you're the parent and you say that to me, yeah, and I'll say, Oh, what what happened? Why why did you quit?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

And usually the answer is like, uh, I don't know. Well, I didn't practice.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

I didn't practice, I didn't like the I didn't like the lessons.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Just so interestingly, just yesterday, I was on the phone with a parent and they the the it was a guitarist parent of a guitar student who had been in lessons for already about three to four years with another another instructor instructor was moving away and looking for a new instructor and I asked about well what are what have you what has your son been doing and the son's been playing classical and electric and I said oh okay so tell me about that how much of those lessons were classical and how much were electric guitar and she said mostly classical you know about 70% and I said all right well what are you looking for to find in a new instructor for him and she said recitals and competitions and I immediately thought this is not the place for you and so I recommended her to a friend of mine who is exactly that who actually a lot like you right a classical classical player who also plays electric yeah and and gave her the number and and hopefully he finds what his family and he is looking for in the instructor but that I I wouldn't want them to come to me because that's not what we do.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

They're going to be disappointed you know yeah and that that's a that's a great point because I I know that I've been guilty at certain points in my career. Like I'm not a jazz teacher. I don't enjoy teaching jazz guitar. I'm not proficient enough at it and I I have so many friends that are awesome at teaching jazz. So I send them to somebody else. But there's been moments where I'll end up someone will call I'm a terrible fit and I'll just be like oh yeah I can totally do that. I'm like what am I saying? I don't do that at all. Here am I just lying to myself and to you. And of course I give it a shot because I think well I'm just gonna get good at jazz. But it's so beneficial if you can get to a point where you consistently just what whoever is writing in, you think about what's best for them. And like you're saying, say this isn't the right fit. What you're looking for isn't what I do. That's what this person does. And I really believe that there's a shortage of music opportunities given how many kids there are, how many people are that want to play right we are none of us are in competition. We'll never be in competition. There will always be more potential students than there are people doing the thing. And so it's great to be that person. And so what will happen and if you're listening to this especially if you're you know getting out of music school like a lot of you are and you're out trying to do your thing is that if you can do that thing where you can send if if you get a call that's not the right fit, you can send them to somebody who is the right fit. You will invariably get return calls that are the right fit from people that called the person you just referred someone to yeah it is it is a because that that classical guitar player probably doesn't want to do what John's doing. Right? They're like that's not my trip I I don't really have the people skills for that. Like I'm super nerdy great with technique I can get you just doing the thing throwing some sweet arpeggios on top of it it's gonna be great. That's not them. So it it's uh yeah it's it's this is a great uh kind of flywheel of just doing the right thing that you're describing. So I I dig that.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

And I think uh in in our industry I think this this parent was somewhat unique and they already knew what they wanted for their their child. They had three this this kid had three to four years of lesson experience already. So he was already on a track. I think so often when parents are looking for music lessons they don't know the nuance involved right and so what they do is they'll lead with questions that relate to the things that they know that are important to them like schedule and like maybe location and pricing and those things are not always going to equal success for the child um so that's why I'm a huge proponent of having those conversations and digging a little bit deeper and helping parents realize well what exactly are they looking for when they get their kid into lessons are do they want their child to be able to read and perform in competitions or do they want them to be able to use this gift music for the rest of their lives and those are the people that I welcome in because the things that we are not good at my studio are competitions and and tests and things like that. But we're great at community. We're great at giving students the tools so that they can take what they've learned in lessons and go play with some other kid that they know down the street who has a guitar. Or uh years later when they're in their college dorm and they've got their guitar and some other kid says like oh I play drums and then they start a band. You know that those are the things that I'm I'm teaching the students to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

You're focused on the human element and the connection and the that journey of playing but it all literally all goes back to what you described as your kind of your moment of revelation when you hung up the rising force Ingve and started playing some playing some tunes. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah I was more a Marty Friedman fan but yeah sure oh that's that's yeah that's tough.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Okay got good distinction both really hard to play um and so that's your in in your in your day to day in your school and are you in describe where you're the community that you're serving uh so you're you're in Michigan it's summertime I'm assuming there's a lot of summer programs going on at your school right now do you do a lot of that or is it so the way that I have my school set up is we run our band program year round and uh we call them band sessions.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

So we'll we'll run a band session for about four months and the band session starts with selecting a set list and rehearsals every week learning how to play those songs as a group and it ends with a live concert at and that takes us about four months. So the way I have the yearly calendar structured is basically three three sessions right so we've got January through April May through August and then September through December um so that May through August sustains us. It keeps things nice and robust. So historically we don't we don't experience that same huge dip that a lot of studios experience. We see a little bit of that but generally the students that start in the summer are enough to sort of even everything out.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

It's almost like you've got year round summer camps. That's what you're you know what I mean it's kind of like year-round camp vibes uh on a trimester system that's a really cool flow where this because for a lot of teachers summertime camps and music schools that's where you'll bring in new people they'll bring their buddies they'll do a day camp uh they'll often churn or some of them will stay but uh what I really like about your operation is how consistent it is it's very simple it's like oh there's there's three trimesters and the summer is a great time to get going to see what the deal is about any time of the year is the fall is another huge time when people start taking lessons because they're back to school they're getting into that's a perfect time. The old new year's resolution so you've hit like the three big moments parents need something for their kids during the summer uh parents are ready to get organized after summer because it's fall and we said we're going to start lessons in the fall uh I got a guitar for the holidays and now I'm ready to start. So you've built this very simple I love this and I didn't know this until just now this this trimester system to align with how parents live I mean whether you did it mindfully or not it's really brilliant because those are the three moments for music school growth. And I mean we all know that right is that we get calls going into the summer for camps we get calls in the fall when people are getting their schedules together for school we deal with the soccer teams and then we rejuggle it but you know that's another story. And then January you get people starting with a new year's resolution. That is and the other times a year are significantly slower. The fact that you can build basically three marketing cycles around three points in the year and if you took nothing else away from this show it's like that is a really big piece of just insight into how this this works and to build a school around those moments I think is is just awesome. I don't know if you did that mindfully or if it just kind of occurred over time, but it is really cool. And I haven't heard that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I think um I think it did it did sort of evolve um and you mentioned camps and we do some other special things in the summer to to kind of attract some some new students who might not be full on ready for what we're doing with the the full band program. Oh my gosh we're doing an awesome one we've got an awesome one planned for this summer that we've never done before we're we're just opening it up to horn players and we don't teach any horn like we do guitar drums bass and voice and keyboard right but I've got this great instructor who uh teaches our beginner level rock band and he's he's a trumpet player uh and among other things and he was like we should do a ska band program and I said I love this so let's just target the horn players and then what we'll do is we'll get them in a in a group together we'll do like a a short three week four week um horn focused workshop and at the very end we'll we'll bring in the the other students to fill out the rest of the band and they'll play some ska songs. So we're super excited about that one.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

That's very cool. And again what a great opportunity that you're gonna be able to bring new people in and include people that otherwise weren't and do something really fun and unique. Where do those uh just a quick question where do those shows do they happen at your school?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Um no we don't have a performance space in the school but uh I've got very good relationships with um some other businesses in the community so we've got we've got two venues in particular that we use on a regular basis for our for our live shows and um one of them we've been using it for geez over a decade at this point and uh just like your classic honky tonk right so you've got the they serve food and drink but they've got an amazing stage with a fantastic sound system and lights so it looks amazing um and that's the one that we use for our end of session concerts so those those three big concerts per year and then we'll do a number of community performances uh we partner with a local brewery that's got they've got a performance space and they do some outdoor stuff in the summer so um always partnering with those other businesses yeah that's just awesome you know the because a it's great to get you you out there but B it's so much fun the sooner you can get your kids on a real stage like they know it they know it when they're on and they're at a bar like they just or in the in a music venue or in an actual auditorium it just it's so exciting and it's such a different experience and to just to be to develop some comfort around that is so awesome and the community loves it so much too because there's nothing like I was that I asked because of the ska band.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I was like oh my gosh how fun would it be like walk by a bar and see kids ska band ripping it up like that's really really fun. So I I'm I'm grateful that you're doing that for your community. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

And let me shift just a little bit because uh I wanted to ask you why why the podcast so let's let's talk about that a little bit you've got this great podcast you've been was you've been doing for a while you're you're deep in it you're what 80 episodes into this bad boy or something um actually today as we're recording this we've got over a hundred episodes recorded already but we just released 98 okay wow yeah so yeah yeah it's been a couple years and um so why um well number one it's it's funny just yesterday I was listening to uh your latest podcast episode with yes yeah and hearing her story as as sort of more of a a classical teacher and hearing her story talk about how she got a backing band of of pro musicians for her students to perform and how exciting that was she said for that for that performance that's exactly why I'm doing this podcast right because I think there's number one I think there are so many instructors piano guitar whatever private instructors who approach their their performances and their lessons in a way that is is really deep in tradition and that tradition if just tweaked a little bit I think can become a bit more exciting and can bit be a bit more community focused as opposed to more static when everything is one-on-one and then the recital is is literally a recital and and again that's not to knock those things I think there's a place for those but I think if if ever there are those instructors who are kind of wondering well what else do I do? Right? I'm getting a sense from maybe this student that maybe the traditional recital isn't the best approach. How can I make it more exciting? I'm a firm believer that the things that I do in my studio and the approach that I take with putting kids together playing together performing making it a community experience can is adaptable to any style of lesson. I mean the the horn thing is is another example right like why can't horns play with a rock band right um why can't you put three or four piano students together and and play music together. Now I get that there's pianos are larger right create some physical barriers but I don't you know I don't see any reason why we all can't be doing this if we want to so to answer your question why the podcast that's a big reason why to to sort of bridge that gap and give ideas um my podcast co-host Mandy she and I have been friends for about a decade and she's an opera singer and she went to school for for performance and music. I didn't go to school for music I went to school for business right I was just kind of the scrappy you know punk rock alternative rock guy and um the but we've had some amazing conversations over the years coming from like sort of these this oil and water schools of of musical environments right where she's she's the more traditional classical she's the opera singer and I came up in in bars right playing in bars. And uh the conversations that we had we always find in middle ground and I learned from her and she learns from me. And so one day we just said why don't we record these and in hopes of helping other instructors.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

So that's that's really the the impetus of the so you're sharing these ideas for how different ways to approach how you're running your school or your studio different ways to reach people I as you were telling that story I was thinking about I've known this to out my life being a classical guitar player uh a lot of classical musicians that do the traditional path because I I actually I I didn't start too late but I really I really appreciate that path of what you were saying the recitals and the learning and that that's I get where that is steeped in tradition is awesome. And a lot of friends who I knew at conservatories and starting careers of performing with symphonies and getting great gigs, you know, you they're in a room hanging out playing like folk tunes or like bluegrass or rock or something they're really uncomfortable just like Leela was super uncomfortable when she had a chart put in front of her. And I've heard that story like four or five times from really well respected piano teachers. And the thing that I took away from every single one of those conversations because they were all talking about an experience where they were challenged like the the their journey that they had had I'm a concert classical pianist and here I am looking in the lead sheet being like I don't know what to do. And they instead of you know pulling away from it they thought oh you know what I'm gonna try this and they got so much joy out of going through that and learning that thing and offering that thing and you're right tons of piano teachers now are like putting together rooms full of you know four or five digital pianos and starting to do these these group based classes and these group based camps and having so much success and the the I wanted to just when you described Leela's story of this thing of bringing in this backing band the thing that I picked up when I was talking with her in her body language was how excited she was like she had done this thing that was so badass and so cool and everyone loved and it pushed her there was the thing like I'm sure she had that moment of like what am I doing? This is a crazy idea that scary feeling we talked about earlier at the very beginning and she pushed it and and I I loved seeing that light in her eyes where she was talking describing it. And I was like this is and she's like my students loved it. I was like dude you loved it like I can tell that and if we're amped as teachers and school owners and we're trying new things and we're excited about them I mean we're going to succeed so much more. And so what you're describing is this great kind of environment to continually be doing things that bring joy to people but also to you right so I really like that a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Eric you missed I think one really important point that I want to circle on in Lila's story. She also said that at that performance the applause was louder and longer right yes yeah I love it and and the reason is because the audience was part of the experience too and I think that's incredibly important because as musicians we can be a little self-centered right and we can be hyper focused on what we are doing and our performance and even the recital is like this the the the nature of the recital is that the performer is going to play their piece and the audience is going to be captively listening. There's a barrier between those two right they're not connected but if you go to a concert that barrier disappears there's interaction between the performer and and the audience and the audience is much a part of that experience as the performer and the performer feeds off the energy of the audience the audience feeds off of the performer it's a give and take and so when Lila mentioned that I thought well of course because she's welcoming she's welcoming the audience into this experience.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Right and they didn't have that before how would you let's say I'm listening to this and I'm a classical pianist I do great recitals my students are awesome I'm in the I just maybe just finished my my spring recital how would you encourage someone and I heard you saying including the audience and it piqued my interest but I was unsure what that actually meant or how I could maybe introduce the idea of having a more uh because I I have a feeling people are listening to this and they're thinking oh my gosh it's true my recitals are really a reflection of me here's how I've prepared my students and secondarily and this is being the truth not like this is actually what's going on inside my the people in the audience are thinking about how well I've prepared these students and how good of a teacher I am. And secondly like are the kids having fun are they performing whatever the thing is that we're trying to do where there's that third piece which is I would guess that many instructors don't consider who they're playing for in the audience during the lesson cycle. Uh, just because it's it's it's a tertiary thing in their mind. How would you welcome someone if you were talking to a teacher that was curious about how can I get what do you mean, John? How can I get my audience connected or involved? Do you have some ideas about that?

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Um, oh, I love this question. I love because now we can get creative, right? I, you know, I think it would depend on the instructor, but I'm gonna cite some examples. Um Jacob Collier comes to mind. Now talk about someone who invites the audience into that performance as a participant, not just a passive observer, right? His performances, he's you know, in some cases, he's built them so that the audience is part of the whole experience. So I would say that if an instructor is contemplating things to do, start with Jacob Collier, watch some Jacob Collier videos and see, all right, how does he do this? Um let's see.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

We'll put some links in the notes. Let's stop with it. So this is so interesting, and this has never come up in any of my conversations. But I've watched all of his videos of him. He'll take an audience and he'll have break them up, and it could be school teachers, it can be just people in the audience. And there's he'll basically create harmonies and chords. And they'll be like, now I'm gonna bring you up a half step, and he'll create these beautiful harmonies with an audience that sounds so good. It just makes your arm hair stand up. What a cool idea to have like a student bring in, you know, to create our harmonic drone underneath a simple melody that they're playing. That'd be so cool. And it would help so what that does is it does take that when you can pull a little the focus off you as the young performer and include the audience, it takes so much of that weight of the anxiety of being the spotlight on you. And then you're actually being a creative performer because the audience does matter. So, I mean, that is that is such a wonderful, and if you're listening, you can just be like, wow, I'm gonna go check out some Jacob Collier stuff, and it might inspire something in you to go in a direction as a jumping off point. That's a that's a great wreck. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

And that's that's like I think that's a high bar too. And but it it yeah, it would, I think it would serve as as inspiration. But inspiration. Even something simpler, right? Something where the bars may be a little bit lower. Um consider Queen and We Will Rock You, right? How many times has that song been performed and the audience or even at a you know, at a sporting event where the entire audience? Anything like that gets the audience involved.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Well, and do you do this in your shows? So you you this is something you factor in.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

You think you think I encourage, I encourage the we I mean, we talk about stage presence, we talk about um banter and interacting with the crowd. Um it's it's difficult for the kids, right? But when they do it, when they finally get it, it's like something clicks and they realize, oh, this makes things so much lighter and so much easier because I don't feel like I'm under a microscope and I'm being watched, but I feel like this interaction breaks down that barrier. And we're just all a big, wow, huge room of people enjoying this experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

What a what a fun thing that we could we could talk about this all day, you know, these ideas of different ways to engage an audience, whether it's in a recital or a school show, your own show. But you know, start when you're going out and seeing music, start being mindful. Because it's true. Sometimes you'll go see a show and there is that wall. You're seeing this impeccable artist do their thing. And sometimes that's an aesthetic, sometimes it's a choice and a different world. But when you're really brought into a performance, and especially with kids, because the people that are there watching students want so much for them to succeed. They want a joyful experience. They're gonna have one no matter what. But like your idea of doing a percussive thing or a call and response or you know, telling a joke, whatever, whatever that thing is, to break down that wall in a recital or performance is something that if you're listening, you know, you can really start exploring as another avenue into your recitals, performances, things that you offer to deepen your offering and to deepen the experience for everybody. I mean, that's just that's a really fantastic um contribution you just made there. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

And I think as musicians, sometimes we lose sight of what the performance is about for the majority of people, I think. Um we focus on the technical aspect. Like if I okay, here's a story. I took my daughter to her first concert um a few years back. We went to we went to see Green Day. And, you know, big stadium show, you know, tens of thousands of people there. And she's having the time of her life. I think she was 12 at the time and just no pun intended.

unknown 49:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

There you go. Just screaming along and singing every word and dancing, right? And and I was just loving watching her. But I was also watching the band, and in my head, the things I were thinking I was thinking about were like dorky guitar guy things, like oh, what kind of guitar is Bill Joe playing? What's that, what's the how's that guitarist tone? How's the mix? All of those things that are about the technical aspects of a concert. And at one point, my daughter turned to me and she said, Why are you just sitting there? And I was in my mind, I was like, Well, I'm gonna have to explain to her that I have a different relationship with music, and but but then I also realized, like, I'm I'm experiencing this in a way that is is very unique to me as a musician. I'm not experiencing this as a fan of music because if I look around this arena and I see tens of thousands of people experiencing it as fans of music, and they're uh jumping around, dancing, screaming, having a fantastic time. I'm the weird one. Right? I I so needed that experience. I so needed to see that through my daughter's eyes to remember how important it is to be a fan of music and how the majority of people experience music, and that I'm the weird one.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah, that's a that's that's a great story, and I bet you left with a a renewed perspective because you devote your life to this thing, and it does change. It's different to see a band now than it was when you were 17 in sneaking into a show or something. It's it was it's a it is a different because you're at a different season. The first thing you started the day with talking about is you mentioned season right away, and it's like you're in a different season where by nature you'd be really curious to how they execute that show, but there you still want that spark of understanding what it's like to really experience a show, yeah. You know, and you can enjoy that and you can feel it through yourself, but also through watching your daughter. I mean, it's that's a that's a it's a great story, and I'm I'm sure it refreshed your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Oh, totally. And and what's weird, and and this is gonna sound crazy, but since then, and and I I have to credit that experience for this, since then, when I go to performances, when I see live shows, I feel more emotional in certain instances than I have in years. Like the like the emotion that's involved in the music hits me in a different way. I think because I'm allowing myself to just enjoy the performance rather than you know spend the entire time thinking about set list and and like mix and lights and sound and everything like that. It's like turning off the part of me that that's my job and and like getting back to what fired me up about music when I was a kid. And man, it's nice to be back with that that experience, I think.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, and yeah, rekindling that relationship, I think, is and respecting it because that's what the reason you started doing this to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

It's like there was a thing that drove you crazy about music, and it's like, you know, it's a it's a long relationship, you know, and it changes and there's seasons and there's context, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Do you know the do you know about Eric? Do you know the curse of knowledge? Do you know are you familiar with that concept?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

No, why don't you why don't you share it?

SPEAKER_00 53:43

So the curse of knowledge, um and I read this in Adam Grant's book. Uh shoot, I can't remember what the book is, but the concept is that the the further you away you get from that beginner stage of learning anything, and the closer you get to mastery, the harder it is to relate to the beginner, the beginner learner. And they, you know, he referenced a study where they were in c a college, college class, and the students liked and felt more confident with the student teacher or the teacher's assistant presenting the material than the experienced professor. And yeah, it's that idea that like, yes, we're at this level with what we do as musicians, but our students are all like way down here, right? So um, if we want to be the most effective, we have to remember what it's like to be that beginner and put ourselves in in that in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

The curse of knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

Yeah. I, you know, I I share this all the time when I'm talking to younger teachers, especially, is I the same thing. It's like I knew when I got out of music school and I started teaching, I loved it. I knew that I had something that the older teachers didn't because I was so close to learning. I was still practicing four hours a day, and I was super pumped. And I was only in most cases like five years older than like the kids I was teaching. So there was this, I was so close to the process of learning. And I thought it gave me a confidence and something that, yeah, I didn't have the experience as a pedagogically that I would now, but I there's something great about it, but just exactly what you're saying. You're closer to that source, that Zen mind, beginner's mind, you know, that that whole thing, which is which is great. And that's kind of what we're trying to return to, right? Yeah. It's like one of my favorite books of all time, which is I don't know if you Zen mind, beginner's mind, but it's like the, yeah, it's the kind of the outline of exactly what you're of what you're discussing. So anyway, that is that is a wonderful, wonderful concept. And thanks for sharing. Uh, before we jump off today, I want to thank you so much for being here. But I know that you've got this curriculum getting ready to come out that you're, I'm assuming, is built from your experience with your school and that you use in your school. Can you tell me about that or how people could, if they're interested in this kind of uh this journey, what you what you got cooking up?

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Yeah, so getting ready to come out. It's uh, you know, as these big projects go. The deadlines keep getting pushed back and back. Um but again, what it is is a a mixed instrument beginner band program. And what what we do is we take the kids from beginner stages on guitar, drums, bass, keys, or voice. And in each one of the classes, we will we break it down into three sections. So the first section is we call it universal fundamentals. So we're teaching all of these kids, it's almost like a lecture portion. We're teaching them all things like, well, what's a whole note, what's a half note, uh, dynamics, these things that all instrument players need to know. And then the second portion of every class is students have instrument-specific uh exercises that they work on. And we've got a whole series of books for each instrument and play-along videos that the kids work through. And then the last part of every class is really where the magic happens because they get to play together. So whatever that concept is that they were working on through that class, now they're applying it as a band, right? And even if it's as simple as, all right, everyone's gonna play an E, a whole note, right? Everyone's gonna play at the same time. Uh, and over the course of about three to four months, we can take them from that beginner stage to performing a song on stage. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah. So it's not ready to be launched to the world yet. We've been using it at my studio for a few years now, and it really was born out of this problem that that we saw where we've got another program that we license that's a very like big beginner, beginner music program um for like, you know, five, six, seven-year-olds.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah, and it's very interactive and it's great for that age range, right? But we saw kids come out of that, and then we would put them in private lessons, and there was this immediate buzzkill. Like, wait, I went from playing music with these other kids to now Yeah, now I'm doing this thing. I'm in now I'm in a room with an adult who's you know really focused on these things that seem a lot harder and it's just like not as fun.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

And so sweet picking all day.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah, there you go. So it was like I immediately saw, like, man, this is a problem. Because if these kids at seven years old are super fired up about learning music at an age-appropriate level, and then they get to that point where, like, yes, they can dedicate themselves to a specific instrument, but the wind just is sucked out of their sails because of how the instruction is delivered. We need a solution to that problem, right? We need to find a better way so that we can prolong the need for private lessons and keep them fired up.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Interesting. Well, I can't wait to uh see this when it comes out and to learn all about it. Sounds really cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I have a I have a perfect jam spot to test this out. A million kids. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

So nice. Well, yeah, hopefully we're we're gonna be we're gonna be doing some test groups um near the end of this year, and then hopefully by the end of the year, we should be able to launch it to people who are interested.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Very cool. I can't wait to check it out. Well, hey John, thank you so much for for being here today. This was an awesome chat, and we should we should do it again soon. And uh yeah, I I appreciate your time. This was excellent.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Thank you, Eric. It's it's always an absolute pleasure to talk with you. It's it's always a good time.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Thank you. Right on. Let's do it again soon. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

You've been listening to the 440 podcast. If you found this helpful, subscribe at Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave a quick rating. It makes a big difference. To learn how to run your studio with less stress and more joy, visit make music.studio.com. I'm your host, Eric Brenner.