Episode 24: Say That Thing! Better Words, Better Marriage

What you say in your marriage matters more than you think. In this episode of Say That Thing: The Power of Positive Words in Marriage, we explore how the words you choose can either strengthen your relationship or slowly tear it down.

Healthy marriages aren’t conflict-free—they’re built by couples who know how to navigate conflict with intention and care. 

You’ll learn why positive interactions carry more weight than you realize, how to separate your spouse from the problem, and why expressing appreciation out loud is essential to a thriving relationship. This episode is a powerful reminder that peacemaking isn’t passive—it’s a daily choice.

If you’ve ever held back a kind word, assumed your partner “just knows,” or struggled to communicate during conflict, this conversation will give you simple, practical tools to transform the way you speak—and the way you love.

Because sometimes the most powerful thing you can do… is say that thing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Mindful Marriage and Family Podcast with Dr. Tamara Fackerell and Jake Fackerell. It's episode 24.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

We're on episode 24. It's great to be back in the studio with you, Tamara. I love you and I love doing this.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

We are excited because we're actually going to have two bonus episodes this season because we have a special guest coming next week. Shalom Levitt is going to be talking about intimacy inside of marriage. We're really excited to welcome her. And so we have that as a bonus, and then we have an ending bonus, which we're really excited about. But today we're going to be focusing on say that thing, which is focusing on the positive, positive words inside of marriage and how that can help your marriage so much.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, when we focus on the positive and don't do all the negative, you'd be surprised and amazed how awesome your marriage actually is. The issues come when all we do is talk about and think about. We have that that um, what do you call it, mind chatter, or you're just always criticizing your spouse, whether it's verbally or just in your mind, and that's negative. And of course you're gonna have a not so great marriage when you're doing that. You've got to make sure that you're positively feeding your marriage every single day. Positive, positive, positive.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, that's right. And I think as just like a research base on the topic of this podcast, we've got John Gottman's study that basically has the ratio of five to one. For healthy marriages, you need to have at least five positives to one negative inside of the conflict discussion space. And it's really interesting because his research also shows that super healthy couples have a ratio of 20 positives to one negative. And then also the divorce ratio is that one to one negative. One positive to one negative, that's the divorce ratio. So if you have more negative than you do positive, of course, you're really digging the hole into the divorce.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, and I find that a little bit surprising, right? I mean, if your ratio is just, hey, for every positive interaction, you have a negative interaction, that's you're on course for divorce. And you really need to just flood your marriage with positivity. And that's why the study comes out and shows five to one, the minimum. I mean, you you've got to just flood your marriage with positivity so that you can be happy and your marriage can be strong and awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah, and that kind of brings us to our first point. I tell people that are really in distress. I'll get a lot of couples coming to me in distress, having really hard times in their marriage. And the first thing I say is number one, take a vacation from your problems. I tell people, look, go on a small getaway, a weekend getaway, and you are restricted from talking about any problems. You're just there to put money into your emotional bank account. Work on those positive words, work on that positive connection with one another, recreate with one another, have so much fun together, do everything needed, but take a vacation from all of the negative. Some people take this strategy, well, let's just sit down and hash out all of the negative that we have, and that will make it better. But the problem is, Jake, if you sp talked about 20 or 30 negatives, how are you gonna do times five, 150 positives to put that balance in place? And so it's like, look, go have a lot of fun. Don't talk about things in the car, don't talk about things as you go. Just go have some fun, and then when you get home, you can talk about one item. You know, have a lot of fun, one item. That's the best way to solve problems, just like one item at a at a time and flooding with all of the positive things.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I really like that analogy of the bank account. Because you can everybody can kind of get their hands around that. They know, okay, I've got to put money into the account before I can take any money out of the account. And you really want to just make sure your that bank account is just filled like to the brim. And so if there is a a time where you need to talk about something hard or discuss something, you take a little withdrawal out and it doesn't kill the bank account. It's still there, it's still flourishing, but you're just constantly putting deposits into that bank account so you can have a real positive marriage.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yes, I think you're right with that. And I brought actually a quote to this podcast. It's from Brene Brown in her book, The Atlas of the Heart, and she talks about love. And she says, we cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness, and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it's something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can be cultivated between two people only when it is it exists within each one of them. We can love others only as much as we love ourselves. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can survive these injuries only if they're acknowledged, healed, and rare. I think that's the same point that I see in all the marital dissolution that I deal with. A lot of people in their deep dark spaces turn off all of their positive faucets, and then they start to focus on the shame, blame, disrespect, withholding affection. They start to do all of the things that make your marriage not function. We're not gonna go have fun together anymore. We're not gonna talk to each other at nighttime anymore, we're not gonna have regular intimacy anymore, we're gonna shut off all those faucets, and the marriage then just can't survive.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, I think we need to be really um mindful about our own self-talk. And so our self-talk can we can talk negatively about our spouse, but oftentimes it's we start with negativity about ourselves in that self-talk. And we need to be positive about that too. We need to love ourselves and we need to build up ourselves and be positive. I think that ratio of five to one holds true for ourselves. We need to be be positive about complimenting ourselves five to one as well as our as our spouse.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, and the happiness studies show at least you need to have a minimum of three to one in your own self-talk. And so when you combine two threes together, it should be six, but together it's only the five. But that's what I like about the quote when it says, we can love others only as much as we love ourselves. That self-love is really an important part of having that positivity inside of marriage. Because if you have self-hate or self-contempt, all of that kind of shines through inside your marriage space. So that healthy self-esteem can be really important.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, and it goes back to your raft model, right? The yes, I am responsible for how I act, feel, and think. There's nobody else that can do that for you. There's nobody else that is responsible for yourself other than you. And so be responsible for that. Be responsible for your own happiness, be responsible for building yourself up, complimenting yourself, because we can't rely on anybody else to do that for us. Um we hope that our spouse will do that for us. We'll they'll build us up, but we can't always rely on even that. And so, yeah, be be responsible for that for yourself, and then make sure you're doing that for your spouse. Build her or him up with positivity every single day.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Right. And I think almost every episode we talk about raft. I am responsible for how I act, feel, and think. And really that is the essence and the crux. And what I've really liked about the raft model for myself is just I want to try to be 1% better. So the pressure isn't be I've got to be 100% better or 50%, but just those small changes over time, those small drops over time can really make a big difference. But I'm always trying to improve myself. And so I think that that's something that's important. Um, number two, in John Gottman's research, they talk about the four horsemen. And it's interesting, and this is something that my PhD professor told me, like, Tamara, you're a divorce attorney. Here you are trying to get a PhD in marriage, family, human development. And the research is showing that what is the biggest indicator is conflict resolution. I'm an expert in communication and conflict resolution, and so it was like this big aha that we need to get my voice out there. He's like, you got to do things for people because you have knowledge and you need to share it inside the marriage space instead of just the divorce space. So he really inspired me to like try to put myself forward, trying to help people in the proactive space. But John Gottman talks about the four horsemen, which are criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. And so I just am gonna read a little bit about each one, and then we just taught a course where we brainstormed in the course, well, what are the opposites of these things? So I'll let you kind of pitch in on the opposite of it. So criticism involves negative words about your partner's personality or character, and often involves accusation and blame. Criticism is not the same as complaining, but instead expresses negativity towards your partner as a person. For example, you're so unreliable. You never do anything you're going to say, what you're gonna do. So criticism being in a critical marriage marriage where people are criticizing a lot is not helpful. So what's the opposite of that one?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Well, I think just going along with that just for one second, is you always want to avoid terms like never and always. You never do this. You always are doing that. And that's not true. Yeah, it's very rare that you're always doing that or you're never doing something. But um, the opposite of criticism is compliments, right? You want to compliment your spouse as much as you can and find ways to compliment her. Like look for what is what is she doing that's great, and and actually speak up, use your words, right? As we started this podcast, like you say that thing and compliment your spouse on the awesome things that they're doing every single day.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, because some of the dissolution of marriage that I work with, they're like, well, you know, my spouse said he really didn't like the kids on this, that, and the other, but he never came back and said those positive words. And he's like, Well, of course I love this and that and the other, but I didn't use my words. I just had my actions and my feelings, but I never expressed it in words. And so I think, especially if you're gonna be complaining about some of the kids or some of the situations, it's really important to then use your words and use that 5-1 ratio. Because sometimes if people just don't know what's going in, how you're feeling and thinking, they only see your actions and your words, you've got to show it. And so if you're one that really complains a lot, you really need to make sure that you come back and close the box with the happy things as well. The next horseman is defensiveness, and defensiveness is often a reaction to criticism. When a partner gets defensive, they stand up against their partner's criticisms, but then they also refuse to take responsibility for their role in the conflict. While it's normal to feel defensive when attacked, defensiveness hinders progress in managing the conflict because the defensive partner seems close to working towards a solution.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, so the opposite of defensiveness is taking responsibility. So, you know, instead of being defensive, which is a conflict tactic, you know, you're being defensive or you use a silent treatment or you walk away, or but but just take responsibility for you what you're responsible for, for your actions, and and then you can resolve the issue. One of the the greatest things I've learned in this um taking responsibility is the two words I'm sorry. When you say I love those words. Yeah. And so for me, um, you know, defensiveness is is something that that I've just grew up with. That's you know, that's what you do, you defend yourself. And but um and and the same s saying sorry was always admitting guilt. And if you weren't guilty, if you didn't do anything wrong, why on earth would you ever say I'm sorry? But then, you know, as you and I discussed this and talked about it, we realized that saying I'm sorry doesn't admit guilt. It doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means I care. And it's a a kind of a starting point for a discussion on resolving that conflict.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And I think what a person can say, you know what, I'm sorry for this part that I did. I'm taking responsible for my part, whatever it is, it just shows growth. I mean, we're not perfect people, and that's kind of we need to be malleable and to be able to talk about things and be able to grow and shift and change. So I think that's a really important part for the healthy marriage. The next one is contempt, and this is the factor that when John Gottman sees it inside of the marriage, he says, this is the one that really leads to the divorce, the dissolution of the marriage. As a pattern of criticism and defensiveness escalates between partners, contempt for each other often emerges. When an individual views their partner with contempt, they have developed a negative view of their partner and struggle to see any positive attributes of their partner. When an individual communicates with contempt, they use name-calling insults, or they're completely dismissive. Or they express contempt nonverbally, such as rolling their eyes. And so that's kind of the big contempt factor. So what's the opposite of contempt?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, the opposite of contempt is love. You want to express love for your spouse, you want to be patient, you know, with your spouse, you want to compliment your spouse, do all those things that we've talked about, those positive things. Um and you know, sometimes it's it's hard to do that, right? When you're in the middle of a conflict. I mean, we've all been there where you're rolling your eyes or this or that, and and you want to be mindful, right? You you to have happiness and joy in your marriage, to have love in your marriage, it's very intentional. And so you want to do the opposite of contempt and love your spouse, be patient with your spouse, compliment your spouse, hug your spouse, all those things.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

And why do you think that people are kinder in solving problems at work than they are with the person they love the most at home?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I don't know. That's a really good that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

That's the question to think about is you should be kinder with your spouse that you love the most than the people at work that you have to work through the work issues with.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, we're always on our best behavior in public. And then in private, you know, we let our guard down and we uh do things that we would never do in public.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Ugh, you should see what I see. I know, it's awful. Heartbreaking. And you know, one thing about this contempt issue is sometimes like I get text strings as evidence in the divorce cases, and you should see what I see, like you know, calling names like really vulgar, awful names, saying threatening divorce. I I want to divorce you, I don't want to be with you. I mean, you can only take that type of pushing so long until you're like, I'm done. I'm not gonna stay in this space where when that person's angry, they're just vomiting on me and saying that I'm a horrible person. That's contempt. Like I I've seen so many text chains just over and over and over. And I'm like, of course, a person cannot survive. And now because people are doing a lot of text fighting, it's all written down. And so it doesn't just go away with the words, you know. And so you've got to just be really careful in how you solve your problems, and you want to treat your spouse the as the most important person.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, and it's it's awful. And I can't imagine somebody, the person they love the most in the world using that kind of language, whether verbally or via text or written in some way. We just want to, you know, when we're get to that point, we want to step back, take a minute, take a few minutes, take an hour, take a day if you need to, to just calm down, get out of that side of your brain, um, where you can sit down with a pencil in your hand and just work it, work it through, talk to each other, love each other. Like stop dehumanizing your spouse. The only way you can get to a point where you call each other those types of things and are as mean and rude and vicious is if you dehumanize your spouse. Stop doing that. She or he is the most important person in your life, treat her that way.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

A lot of times big fights are what break the camel's back in marriage. So you're pretty much always 20 minutes from a divorce because you could be in a fight in 20 minutes and it could be over. So you gotta be super careful on how you work through problems, which we have talked about a million times. And then the last one is stonewalling. Stonewalling is when one or both partners withdraw or shut down from their conversation, such as we're not talking about this. Well, it's healthy to pause and take a break to calm down. Stonewalling is a refusal to work with their partner to find a solution to the underlying problem. And all of these quotes that I've gotten actually, I'm a commissioner for the Utah Marriage Commission. So I went through and took some of their courses. There's hundreds of courses that they offer at strongermarriage.org. And so these quotes that I've just read on the John Gottman styles come from that. So I wanted to make sure that I give them a big plug because I'm all about healthy marriage.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, and if so, when you're stonewalling, what's important is well, don't stonewall. It is sometimes important to take a break. Sure. But always re-engage.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Close the box.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

The 24-hour role, right? Close the box, re-engage, come back when you're both kind of calm and you've thought things through, and you can just talk about it with a pencil in your hand and sit down and discuss possible solutions.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Okay, our third one comes from getting to yes and by Bill Ure. And it is separate the people from the problem. So you want to be hard on problems but soft on people. So when we're talking about, you know, positively solving things and these words that need to come, focus and say all of the kind things about the person and separate the problem from it. That's really important. When you start to make those as one, it's something that can be really, really difficult. And then number four is the say that thing. This is really taking the time to have compliments for your spouse and appreciation. And we want to do it verbally, we want to do it via text, we want to do it via email, we want to do it handwritten. In fact, the other day I was just sitting looking at the last big love note that Jake wrote me. But just making sure that if there's something that you feel about your marriage, if you're feeling a connection, make sure to say it.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, we have a love board in our bathroom. We get to read each other's notes every single day because we're in there every day getting ready for work, and we have our love notes sitting right there in front of us, which is a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

We have decades of love notes on this love board. And it's a tradition from my parents. They had a love board in their bathroom. And so it's something that just really can connect you. But just making sure if you're appreciating something that your spouse does, actually say the words.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Say it. Don't just show it because you think, oh, I'm showing it, but that doesn't always get the message across. You know, say it out loud and and write those things down that are fun, that are positive. So avoid writing the negative stuff, because you don't want to do that. But when you write the positive things down, then that's something you can go back and reflect on often. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

And the last one is peacemaking is a choice. Contention is a choice, conflict is a choice, problem solving is a choice. Are we gonna have a conflict or are we gonna problem solve? They're different things, there's different ways to approach problem solving. We sit down with a pencil in your hand. And I don't really encourage people to solve problems that are eight, nine, and ten, doing anything but sitting down with a pencil, researching it out, doing the, hey, this is what we're gonna talk about, and doing your research, sitting down and talking about it. Standing up, talking about things isn't helpful. Talking about things when you're driving in the car onto an event isn't helpful. It's like carve your time out to problem solve, to be that peacemaker inside the marriage.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, I love the the whole concept of being a peacemaker. You don't want to be the one that's causing issues and problems in your marriage, but look for ways to find peace and harmony in your marriage. And so that's super important to have a fulfilling, awesome, joyful marriage.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, and peacemaking is a daily choice. And so I think as we look, and we have to start to be really honest with yourself. In our conflict space, what is it that I can do better? And start pinging yourself to be 1% better inside of that space. And I even myself, like I'm writing down in my journal, hey, I noticed this about myself. I think here's something that I can improve on. And so just trying to make those small improvements, getting feedback from your spouse, and just trying to work together to have the best life. But positivity, gratitude, appreciation, saying that thing, all of those things, the research studies, that that's something that really makes marriage great.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, strong marriages are built on those small, positive moments in our marriages. And there's thousands upon thousands of those that build up to just create this really fulfilling, awesome marriage.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So that's a wrap. Those are the five things we want to talk to you about, about placing more positivity inside your marriage. We hope that you guys have an awesome week and a happy, mindful marriage. Don't forget to tune in next week. We've got our special guest, Shalom Levitt, talking about intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah, we'll see you all next week. time everybody and don't forget to subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss an episode