He Had No Military Background But Was Selected For Elite CIA Unit | Bryan Mabry Interview

What happens when a “normal” guy walks into a world built for SEALs, Rangers, and operators and refuses to quit?

In this episode of Not Special, Bryan Mabry shares the inside story of going from overlooked candidate to CIA Global Response Staff (GRS) operator. He eventually lead training for the next generation in this elite unit.

We go deep into:
* Getting rejected and coming back stronger
* Earning respect in a room full of elite operators
* What real leadership looks like under pressure
* Life after the CIA: tech, venture capital, and defense innovation
* The hidden challenges of transitioning out of high-stakes environments
* Why decision-making, not perfection, is the ultimate advantage

This isn’t Hollywood. This is what it actually takes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Brian? Why are you special?

SPEAKER_00 0:03

I've been asking myself that for a long time. Fortunate to have a lot of different careers, had a lot of different opportunities. I think the thing that makes that special is uh because people took chances on me and took gave me shots of things that I otherwise shouldn't have had. And I think that's pretty special. Uh, but that's more uh that there's special people in my life that have given me a shot now and again.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I'm Herb Thompson, a green brain resolutionist.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's less hairy half and branding expert.

First day at CIA and no one came to get him

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true. They are special. I know the audience is gonna think you're special. We think you're special. Very uh, but I mean, former CIA, we may or may not get into that. Done a bunch of business stuff in Defense Tech, Venture Capital, co-founded uh a nonprofit to help uh especially veterans and others get into recruiting. You're one of our speakers at Liberty Speaks, so it's you're so you're looking for work, right? Yes, I and that's just what you're doing this week. Uh there's a lot there. But I want to I want to take it back. How did you get into government work? And probably means how you got to the agency, I imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

I had this life plan all planned out, like ninth, tenth grade. I was gonna go to the naval academy, I was gonna be a SEAL, I was gonna work for the agency, probably retire from there and go do something that like Northrop Grumman or Raytheon or whatever. Um, so I started down that path, got into the Naval Academy, went there. Uh, this was like pre-LASIC and all of those things. So about halfway through indock and plebe, yeah, they're like, Well, your vision sucks. You you you can't be a SEAL. Like, you also can't be a pilot. Like, well, I'm six foot three, sub doesn't sound great, no disrespect to SWOS, but that wasn't really kind of what I was into. So decided that I love the military, but I also was terrible at math and engineering, which turns out the Naval Academy fancies sort of thing. Uh, and so uh I uh I transferred out and um then kind of just set my path on wanting to get back into some sort of federal law enforcement. So uh went to James Madison, was poly psy, was tracking towards um you know all the three letters. Um and 9-11 happened my senior year, and I had um applied to the agency and everywhere else. And uh I to be the agency, uh, I was at there's there's a zero chance I'm getting this job. It was a complete, you know, Hail Mary. Um, so I'd gone back in to do um on track to do OCS for the Marines, and that's where I that's where I thought I was heading. I'm on spring break, my senior year, and I get an email about interviewing uh at CIA, and I almost deleted it because it was that did you think it was fake? It absolutely did, and uh I was like, well, maybe I should respond to this. And so uh I interviewed uh and in April I got an offer seven days later, and I walked in the door on October 28th, and that would never happen again were it not for the unfortunate circumstances of 9-11, but the but the the machine was moving very quickly at that point in time. So I walk in and then there's uh question.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Did you walk into like the crest on the floor?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

No, no, you walk in. I mean, yeah, you you the first day, obviously, you don't have a badge, you go up to go to the visitor center, you get your badge, you walk in. Um, there's uh a CIA 101 course, um which which everyone takes, right? It doesn't matter whether you're an architect or you know, uh whatever you are, everyone goes, and it's the you it's the you know, this is how you do your time card, this is HR, this is all the you know, basic, basic things.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So like a normal corporation.

Discovering GRS (the elite path)

“You don’t belong here” first rejection

SPEAKER_00 3:40

And so there were all walks of life and people of all different jobs in this class of mine. And the first day, whatever you are in whatever office you are, they somebody comes to take you to lunch. Because at the at the time that I went through, the classroom was located near the cafeteria, so they would just come pick you up. And I was like last kid on the playground, and no one shows up. So I'm sitting there and I'm in my little like 22-year-old shirt and tie, and everyone else is like, Oh, great to meet you heard Corielle, yeah, let's go grab something to eat. And I'm just like, and no one came. And so finally, like 30 minutes later, this poor woman who very clearly had no idea who I was and had like been sent. She was, I think, like the front desk assistant in the office that I ended up. She's like, I don't know who you are, why you're here, but I was told to go get you for lunch. And I was like, Well, thank you. Um, so that was my uh that was my first day, and um I was uh So she didn't know what you did either. Well, she knew what the office did, but she didn't know I was coming to the office or anything. And and or and so um I ended up starting uh definitely a non-kinetic role. Uh it was and um it was a it was a lot of sort of administrative uh process, just metric stuff. So the woman who was my chief was very aware that I wasn't thrilled at what I was doing, but I also knew it was grind work that like had to get done. And so uh I you know started asking around and talking to people. And I had a uh buddy um in a different group that I had worked in who had just gotten out of the army, and he had a uh one of his best friends from Bragg who was in this operational group. And he's like, Well, you should have lunch with with Dave. And and so I meet Dave and he starts talking to me about GRS. And uh, you know, Dave was had a you know prior military so-con background, everybody else, and I said, Well, you know, can anyone try out for this? And they said, Well, yeah, like sure, you can try out. Typical background is you know, is eight, eight years of some flavor of SOF prior to coming to that SEAL, marine recon, yes, ranger, DJs, yeah. Um, and and that's that's the profile that you know, we had some heavy SWAT folks that had had, you know, and I when I say heavy, like folks that had done, you know, Atlanta and you know, real-world heavier engagements. Um, and so, and then there's you know, college frat guy Brian. And so I um I tried out the first time. I passed the uh the the PT test and all that. So I go to the interview, and the guy who's interviewing me, he's like, Well, you know, you seem great, but like you don't even have a performance review on file. You haven't even worked here six years, like there's tumbleweeds in your file. Like, if you're serious, like have you seen a weapon before? Yeah, and he was like, uh, and and I and that I at least had grown up, like, you know, rural, like I, but not any sort of proficient professional shooting, to be clear. And uh, so I I ended up um, he's like, if you're serious, you gotta come back after a year and try out again. I was like, Okay, uh fair enough. And so, and at that point in time, my chief had said, she's like, Look, if you get if you get this, I will not cover for you, I wasn't doing anything wrong. She's like, I will, I will let you go for the for the you know six-month pipeline of of the you know protective agent training and then the advanced GRS training. And so I ended up getting it, and she she true to her word, did that. And so at the time, you know, the agency was, you know, it has directorates, you know, directors for operations at analysis and what have you. They didn't play nice with sharing cross-careers. So I was in the directorate of operations in that role, but at the time, grs was was under a different. And so I was essentially asking for an internal career change, which they were, for various reasons, not inclined to give folks usually. And so I was fortunate to be able to get that and go go across. Um, and so that was that started my career.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Check us out, LibertySpeaks.com to find more about Liberty Speaks and our speakers for helping sponsor this episode. But I want to dive into what was that process like going through that training? Because you didn't have that military background, so I'm gonna assume it was not very familiar for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

No, I mean, I had you know, I had grown up shooting, so I'm from a functional perspective, I knew what the bad end was, but uh, you know, it was um certainly no CQB or anything like that. And so GRS is part of protective operations division, which is comprised of GRS and the director's protective staff. So anyone who is a protective agent goes through that first pipeline.

What protective operations training is REALLY like

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Uh, and that's all the sort of traditional protective things you would think of, you know, driving, medical, guys you see on TV, sunglasses, ear mics, suit with a gun, watching for a dignitary.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Much, much more kind of the high profile um, you know, uh on the on the director's protection side. That's the first pipeline. And then those two groups split and go on to their respective advanced training. And so GRS's advanced training falls after that and turns it into tactical development course, TDC. And so everyone goes into that. The time that I went through, um, all the instructors were for the most part prior dev group guys. And so, you know, coming from extensive backgrounds of of training.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

SEAL team six, for those that don't know what that is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Were they receptive of you? Or or was how did that dynamic?

Earning respect with zero background

SPEAKER_00 8:50

They were uh they they were. I mean, they I think the I said something to the effect like the first day, I think when I when I met them in the advanced training course, I said, you know, something to the effect of, you know, I'm gonna bust my ass and try this, but if I don't need to be here, I don't need to be here. And their response was some polite version of like, don't you worry, we'll let you know. And I'm like, I I thought you might, but um no, but I, you know, I give those, I give those guys, especially that initial cadre, I give them credit. They were if they were biased or judging, they never showed it. Uh, and you know, I I never felt that I got any different treatment than you know a teen guy next to me who was coming through. Um and I I credit them for that.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Oh, to your character, but also as an instructor, I'd rather have that. Because you aren't coming with any bad habits, you don't think you know it.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

You sponge it and you did that to your credit.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

No, I I mean it was I was very fortunate to have, I mean, they were phenomenal instructors and they they were yeah, they're they certainly were were patient and explained things thoroughly, but I don't I certainly don't think I got any extra grace that anyone else did, nor would I have wanted that. And and um kind of full circle, I ended up coming back after years of deployment as an instructor, and then ultimately as the SSA who ran training and selection for that unit, which was kind of atypical as the like college frat guy, my first exposure to any sort of you know tier one military training of uh of any sort, um, you know, getting yelled at at you know at the Naval Academy is is is not quite the same uh um from a from a uh instruction perspective. But that was something that really stuck with me as hey, that's that is a quality instruction, but b, that's quality leadership and humanity and how you you know judge and get the right folks. And so um those guys set a set a bar that I uh looked up to and still do.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

What do you think drove you to achieve that?

What the CIA actually does (explained simply)

The real mission of GRS

SPEAKER_00 10:48

You know, I saw this as an opportunity that ostensibly I shouldn't have had and and no one should have given me. So, you know, I was at that point sort of bound and determined to to not disappoint anyone else who took a chance on me, but and also hopefully not disappoint myself. But that was um yeah, that was kind of the the motivation. And I'm and I think that that that was encouraged by those folks who were, you know, not anything but the same even keel unfair with me. And so that gave me, you know, taking that and seeing guys who have done things that are truly the stuff of legends who are like, okay. So I'm like, well, I don't want to disappoint them. And so that that kind of pushed me harder to to make sure that I did the best that I could. I mean, the easiest thing I tell people is like essentially any job that you can imagine in the outside world exists in there. I mean, we have librarians, we have, you know, there are people who are food specialists, you have you know logistics accountants, absolutely. So, you know, it there are just those folks with a clearance, maybe accounting classified things, but they're still just really great accountants. And so the organization's sort of you know, marquee flagship obviously is is collection, and that's that in case officers are the are the folks who drive that. Everything built around that is to enable them. And and I, you know, GRS is a perfect example. Our only job at the end of the day was to enable the collection. You know, we are not collectors, we don't go out and collect ourselves, but we enable folks to do that or and to do it safely or in challenging places. You know, I think that was one of the things with particularly when I was running training, sometimes you're like, you got to remind folks, you're like, I get it, like everybody here is here because you know, they're committed to what we're doing, but we are we are enabling the core mission of this organization, and that's that was our real job. Um, I mean, at the at the the principal level.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

So are you still in? Because I've heard that you can't leave the CIA.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

It's Hotel California. You can never leave. Um no, I am not, I am not still in. And you're not dead. I am not dead. No, uh not um, no, uh I I I am fully out. I left in um October of 2015 through industry and through some of the work that and you know, commercial work that I've done, some of the technology companies that I've worked with, very much still committed to enabling the the mission of that organization. Uh and so I think it's, you know, for me, the hardest decision I'm or biggest fear I had, I guess, when I left was that I wouldn't still be able to contribute to something that I cared and spent the first you know 14 years of my career directly supporting. Uh, I've actually found quite the opposite. You you can do more from the outside in a lot of cases and kind of um help them help themselves from a from a different optic.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Definitely have more of an impact, right? Than a you're just a person in a machine.

Why he walked away mid-career

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah. It's it's it's to have that view kind of, and and I think, you know, I I left um I was a senior 14 when I left. And so I was I was 14 years in and I was 14 years away from what would have been retirement eligibility if I had sort of stayed the course with overseas time and whatnot. And so truly a middle of the road. And yeah, I struggled with the decision, but at the end of the day, I came to the conclusion that I could do more from the outside, or I saw you know, personally more opportunity from the outside um than in.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

And so that's you know, that's kind of where we're and it turns out the pay is better outside, right?

Life on deployment (nonstop rotations)

SPEAKER_00 14:18

That's yeah, that's another motivator. I mean, I do miss that war zone uh yeah uh danger pay, but no, it's um it it is, and I and I think there's a sort of um Shawshank syndrome, and it's not it's that's not agency specific, right? I think it's government specific as well. And and and this isn't a political statement, but I think like you know, folks get comfortable and they're like, well, I can stay here forever. I'm like, well, I think you know, the recent cuts and and doge sort of defunct that theory. The last job that I held when I was there um was what's called a plans officer, which is more like congressional budget justification, you're doing staffing tables and all that kind of thing. So you talk about strategies where you're like, well, I want to do a reduction in force and I want to do voluntary, you know, reduction. So, you know, if you meet criteria X, you can punch out however many years early. Well, from an organizational function perspective, your good people are the ones that are gonna leave, not your bad, because your good people know I'm gonna take my pension and I'm gonna go someplace else because I will have opportunity. And then you're left with maybe the people you would have hoped to saw the door. So that's a really challenging thing, I think, for any organization. When I left the sort of deployment role, um, you know, I think I think I was my worst year was maybe 230 or 40 days um downrange. And and that's not in the same place. And so, you know, for for folks that are less familiar, like if I use the term deployment, a deployment for us would be like 70 to 90 days. Changes the pace a little bit, but I think for for our group, you know, particularly it was the time in between those. So I might do 60 days and I should be home for 30 to 60, but then something pops up and they're like, Oh, hey, can you punch right back out?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

And person like you, like just like in special operating military, you didn't go there to say no. Correct. You didn't go there to sit back and like, yeah, let me come back here and do some paperwork. You went there for a reason and you're gonna do it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I think for guys like both of you, the commonality is the consideration isn't if you're going, it's the consideration is if you're staying, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

And that's usually not easy.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

And you know, if you're if you're, you know, a young and single guy who doesn't have a lot of other responsibility, then that's a that's a pretty easy decision. And I think on the contractor side, you know, the motivation is there even more so because I'm a staffer, I'm getting paid whether I'm there or here, I'm getting paid more when I'm there, sure. But you know, as I'm a contractor, if I'm not there, I'm not getting paid. And so, you know, you're incentivized, only earning when your boots on the ground or or training pipeline to do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

When you were there at the agency doing that, did you ever think, how the heck did I end up here?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Was there any any moments where you were like, what the not at the time, but I think as I look back on it and some of it, and you know, some of my um some of my you know closest friends are still from that, and and you know, some of them are still in and actively working, others have gone into industry or kind of left that world entirely. There were times where I think looking back historically, we did something or or we maybe we didn't do something that we should have, and we're like that that that should not have worked out that way. And taking a step back from some of that and looking back at those times, I think, is is is really more when it when you sort of take stock of that.

Transitioning to the private sector

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Subscribe right now for more great stories, but you we're talking about you leaving the agency and moving on. Like what did you decide to do that? Because that's like if you're leaving something, there's probably got to be something on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I had a sort of career mentor um in the agency who was very senior. Um he's uh he'd been the director of support and and um moved on up, and he had retired uh and gone to work in private sector, and we had kept in touch. And so when I decided to leave and said, Look, I'm I think I'm done, and he's like, Well, if you're serious, come come, you know, chat with us. And uh his uh his boss, woman who's the general manager at that company, uh that group, I met her, and you know, I think she was, I don't remember the exact word she used, but it was something really effective, I'm not entirely sure what we're gonna do with you, but I I don't I don't want you working for somebody else, so we'll figure it out kind of thing. And um, and you know, that was again, that was somebody who took a chance on me. I went into a you know a company that otherwise is mostly direct billable into an overhead slot. And you know, for folks that are not as familiar, and I know you you've done the private sector thing, you like that's a tough sell.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

And that was yeah, billable means a customer's paying you if you're overhead, just the company's paying you and they're not collecting for you.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Not all received, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

And uh so she she took a chance in putting me into that into that role, and that was my first kind of foray into the into the private sector. And yeah, I was very fortunate to to be able to still support that community. I was doing some work with folks at Bragg through that role um on the contract side, and so so it it didn't feel as as sort of a stark contrast there. I think, and I still was working on largely on Intel programs for that company, and so that that kind of helped help me feel like I'm still in the mix um a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So basically you left the agency, but it didn't leave you.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

It still follows me every now and again. No.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Um I was actually gonna ask you. I know we talked a little bit about, you know, I think your wife has has a name for you.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

They're but not in the like you're still doing agency stuff, just you learn skills and what's kept you alive. And how do you go live a normal life now?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Like Doesn't she call you like the neighborhood? Rondog or McGrath or something.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah. Um no, I think it's uh um, you know, there is a there is a I mean it sounds uh cliche, but there there is the trained observer facet of of any role. I mean you're you know, and so I think you're you are attuned to things that other people wouldn't necessarily, it's not that you're you have any sort of superhuman element, it's just you're you're looking for something that's a little bit off.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

And so practice not practice, you've done it for years to where it's like breathing.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And it's hard to, you know. I mean, I uh the the thing she was making fun of me for was there was a car that was parked across the street from our house that was not a neighborhood car and it had been there for X number of days, um, and the tires were starting to go a little flat. It was one it was one of those things where I was like, hey, that just doesn't, you know, it doesn't fit right. And so, you know, we got our little neighborhood group text chain. I was like, is this anybody's you know, visitor or whatever? And everyone's like, Oh no, I didn't I didn't even notice that had been there.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

And so But it does go back to that if you see something, say something. And if you hadn't, and God forbid that it be something.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

And I think it I think it actually they came and towed it. I it actually was a stolen car that somebody left there. Threat? No, not but it was enough that you think it didn't fit. Yeah, and that that the c that's the kind of thing I think that that does stick with you, and and you know, whether it's a restaurant or uh, you know, that that kind of thing. There's varying degrees of of extreme there, and some of it's unhealthy, and you know, that's one of the things that folks can get help with through, you know, various means now.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

But I I think that those are uh you seem to have a healthy balance from what we've observed.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Catch me on a good now. Congrats, Brian. You're not a wacko in our mind. There might be people that would argue, Connor, but uh no. Um I hope not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

We want to give a very special thank you to Dr. James Lynch for sponsoring this episode.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

The work him and Jody, his wife do at their clinic, do an SGB, still like ganglion block. Yes, I said it, providing relief to those who have suffered from anxiety and trauma and giving people hope to a better life. Uh, check them out at their website, Dr. James. Lunch.com, hit them up, let them know Herb and Corey sent you their way.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

You know, when I when I first left, I went to to the company I was I was just referencing. That's you know, that was a larger sort of global company working on critical infrastructure things. Felt very much still kind of government-y because I say large government contractors. Absolutely. So I mean, you know, generally not a lot of, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Exchange badges.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yes. Yeah, I mean, and literally in that case. And so, you know, that was that was one thing I I did not intend to go back into government, but I got asked to come back in. Um, so I ended up coming back in in 2018. It's Millennium Challenge Corporation, so it's it's a wholly owned federal agency, but it's it's focused on foreign aid. And so large-scale infrastructure investments in in you know predominantly um economically disadvantaged countries that exhibit good governance is kind of the mission. So serving as the acting um vice president and CFO as my last role there.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

I just want to go back to you saying you weren't good at math at the naval equipment. I am not good at math at the end of the day.

Jumping into startups and tech

SPEAKER_00 23:02

The US government trusted me. So no, I was very fortunate. I had a great team there, uh, an amazing deputy who uh he tolerated. When you talk about people that have patience, um Adam had a lot of patience for me and uh kept me out of trouble. So I was very fortunate to have a good team around me and and and work on that. Left in uh 2019, and then that's when I went into working in my first startup. So I was working for a British company, started small, ended up larger.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Was it a MI6 or MI?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

No, it was uh it was a uh it was a tech company. Um, the tech company that was uh was working on software supporting the community for the most part, was working with them on kind of joint work and then um helped kind of scale up the US piece of that. And so I did that for about four years. While that was happening, I was picking up a little more stuff with my own consulting with Via Mentia, kind of helping companies along the way. That company closed down in 24. And so um that point I jumped on with Onyx and uh um had known the guys there for a long time and done some work with them on other projects and um joined them as COO then. So fortunate enough to do that. And you know, the Onyx is a great organization for you know, it's still small, pretty nimble. Everyone on the the C level are all formers of some sort. So, you know, Chris, our CEO is a PJ, uh, our founder was from Marstock, and so uh we've got kind of that perspective, and then some really, really bright um engineers working.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

And Onyx is folks on national security would say defense texta or defense.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah, so um military hardware for the most part. So our our flagship sort of uh main product is Sentry, which is a remote actuated weapon system. So it's an intelligent gimbal with uh everything from a 556 to a 40 millimeter on it, largely working in the special operations realm. It's you know it's kind of a lighter man packable versus a large sort of implanted heavy weapon. You can use a cutter controller for it. You can be sitting on your couch and talking to it via Starlink on the other side of the world. And but basically our models are trained on drones, people, and vehicles. So if it sees something in the sector you told it to look for, it lets you know and says, Hey dad, what do you want to do? And so um that's uh that's our main program. We assume it. It doesn't just fire on its own, it does not, it does not. There's always a human on the loop. There are a number of protocols, including an entirely different encrypted COM channel that controls firing versus controlling the systems.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

And because you worked at they so you figured out how to bend time, so you don't just do onyx, you also do venture capital stuff. And I'm very interested in this because probably up until about six, seven years ago, that was just something I heard on TV and was like, I don't know what that is. It's rich people throwing money around. How'd you get into that?

Venture Capital explained simply

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I had gotten involved a little bit um with a private equity uh firm called Scare the Bear, which is which is DC based, but New North Ventures uh is where I am now um on the VC side. So the two co-founders of New North, uh Jeremy Hitchcock and Brett Davis. Brett and I were were friends from the agency, served together. He was Navy before, and Brett and Jeremy uh launched New North in 2021. Unfortunately, Brett passed away uh from cancer um not long after. And so Jeremy had kept it going. We had a number of venture partners who were folks from from industry and also from government. They asked me to join full-time uh last summer and so um jumped on there. And so we're focused on um to early stage dual use uh technologies. And so for folks, you know, dual use means a lot of things. For us, it's it's it's gotta have a it's gotta have a military andor government and commercial applications. Firstly, from a pure value perspective, I can use a different multiple to value a company that is having that has both commercial and government lines of business. Most folks that are have worked around the government can be like, no new starts means no new starts. So if your contract is this far, but not that far, you're we have to pause. And for a startup in particular, make a break. That can be death. And so um the one of the things I think on the investment side, on the venture side, particularly, you know, when we're talking with IRLPs, our limited partners who are the people that give us the money to then invest.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Oh, I'm coming back to that.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

I'm coming back to that. We um, you know, it folks that want to invest in government tech early startups have to have a proper understanding of what those procurement timelines look like. And what that translates to is I might need you to bail this company out along the way if exigent circumstances, you know, a shutdown doge happens.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

To my understanding, forecasting is really challenging with government contracting, right?

$10M deal but no money to build it

SPEAKER_00 27:35

It's I mean, so a typical government contract, or I mean if it's a services contract, it's usually gonna be around five years. And so you're gonna have a you know a base plus four. And so they have four years of options to exercise that they likely will, but don't have to. And so, you know, from a putting putting the former sort of big government contractor hat on, if I'm competing against Herb's big contractor company, I'm gonna obviously try to price to win and I'm gonna price probably to take a loss in my first year because I want you to pick me, and then I'm gonna make it up in the back years. Well, when those back years don't happen, I just take a loss. Yeah, and so if enough of those happen, like now you have a big problem. Yeah, um, and and that's even for big primes. I mean, big primes can can can you know move the cards around the table to to absorb it a little better, but for a startup, yeah, that's really tough. And so, you know, on the hardware side for a startup, like we are you also like I'll I mean, I'll use Onyx as an example, and it's any any products company. The US government is not paying me for that thing until I deliver it. Well, I have to pay for the parts to make that thing. You're putting a lot of money up from somewhere. So, you know, that that that sort of cash flow planning and the the slinky effect of I could charge an international partner a percentage up front, which will might help me cover cost of goods. But as a company, especially in early stage one, cash flow management is huge. And having that conversation with your investors up front is is critical. Because when you show up and say, Hey, I just sold$10 million, but I need$2 million to make the thing, the widget, they're like, Well, uh, do you want me to pay for that? And so, you know, having that clarification up front is really critical.

ZeroEyes keeping us safe

SPEAKER_02 29:20

How did being a super badass CIA agent translate to this?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

We worry about our kids' safety all the time. We worry about them out in public places because these days there's just so much to be worried about.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Heck, we worry about ourselves, right? So that's why we're thankful to our sponsor, Zero Eyes, for their work. We got to see their operations in action.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

It was amazing to see in Lifetime action they were identifying actual threats and immediately contacting authorities. The quickness was impressive, but it was also impressive to see how many people they had that were overseeing the utilization of the technology.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I mean, you have a team founded by Navy SEALs, other veterans that are doing their work there, saving time, saving lives. Check them out, zero eyes.com, schedule a demo. Tom Herb and Corey sent you.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Resilience and sort of versatility in the sense of like, well, well, this that didn't work, like, and and being able to pivot quickly. And the second is you know, being able to make a decision with limited or less than ideal information. And it may not be the right decision, but they'll be the but the willy exactly. And I think like, you know, I'm sure I you probably experienced this when you're in BA. Like when I first left government, I had this preconceived notion that everyone in business outside is this cutthroat, only the strong survive, like, you know, it's razor quick decision making, and you're if you're you know, you're gonna get sea turtled by somebody climbing over you, and then you go to you know, the outside world, and it's well, you know, let's let's meet about that some more and like let's let's let's have another meeting about for fourth quarter, but review that we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

We have six more months of meetings to talk about the meeting to talk about, maybe doing it.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

That's not in the budget this year, Brian.

Decision-making vs overthinking

SPEAKER_00 31:07

I I think that's that was the thing that was if there was a trait that someone was like, Oh, we like you because of in the private sector, it was decision making. And again, not saying it was the right one, but like I would make one with the information that I had, and if it was wrong, I would try to quickly pivot and adjust and re-engage on a different course. And I think that's the sort of the the special operations side of that that translates most clear, at least for me, that sort of stuck out that that I think I for one just assumed everyone did because those were the people that I was around all the time. You know, for me, I I had done some personal investing in companies early. I'm doing the due diligence, I'm doing the best I can to assess those, but I was actually an investor in New North before I worked there because you know, as I started thinking through that and talking with them, like, well, all right, I'm playing a few hands over here, or I can play 20 hands here, lesser amounts per deal personally, but the chances of diversifying your portfolio, yeah. And then and and and now I've got smart people looking at those companies with, you know, I mean, we we're very fortunate. One of our venture partners, she was an astronaut. When we look at a space company, we're looking at her and she's like, Oh, this is what I think, or this is the question that I would have. Who's been in outer space? Yeah, okay. That was actually idle hilarious. We we had a conversation once with um with a company and they were saying something that she's very, very humble and and and incredibly brilliant. But it was one of those, well, when I was in space the third time, and you're like, and you see the company who clearly, you know, like hadn't done their you're like, uh, know your audience. That's a great rule for life in general. Um, but uh yeah, it's it's really enjoy. I mean, I I enjoy venture a lot because you do get the chance to build, help build a company, and you get to see folks with incredibly brilliant ideas. And you know, I am not a technologist, I'm I'm enough to be dangerous from looking at it, but you know, the ideas and the concepts that folks have, it's just incredibly impressive. And so, particularly being able to say, Oh, I know that tech selfishly, that technology could could change my old world for the better or help or save someone, that's really, really cool to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Our friend Sharif, you co-founded Bellator recruiting with him because you didn't have enough going on. I blame him for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

That's his idea.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Of course, yeah. He could talk into some stuff now. He can, he can. How how did that come about? And what what do you guys do with that? How did you meet Sharif? Oh, yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I love the how you met Sharif stories.

Building a nonprofit for veterans

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I um we had met a few times at a party. Um, and you know, hey, nice to see you. And then we probably started hanging out more in earnest and around like 2010, would meet up and hang out, and then uh I went back.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

So for folks, this Sharif has had an incredibly impressive career in um talent acquisition and really just uh serves as a mentor in um in helping folks guide their careers and looking for, you know, looking for folks. That's how I met you all. We were uh having a glass of uh Timper Neo one day. I remember this vividly. And uh he's like, hey, I think I want to start a um think about starting a nonprofit, um, and I really like it to support veterans. Um I'm like, well, that's cool, man. That sounds great. Like I'm happy for you. That's really noble. And he's like, Well, I'd like to co-found it with you. Do you want to be a part of it? And I was like, um, yes, you know, without having put much more thought into it. And so the idea for Bellator Recruiting Academy was Sharif's, but it was based on folks who were transitioning out of the military. And and I think our sort of cocktail napkin vision at that point in time was we were sort of targeting more, you know, folks without degrees, non-soft folks who might be leaving a career in the military and and and have limited or lesser earning potential as they hit the they hit the streets, particularly if they're in a you know a non-urban area or a place where there's less jobs. And so, you know, we partnered with a couple of different early stage companies, you know, not early stage companies, early tech companies. So Facebook, um, LinkedIn, some of those folks. Heard of them. Yes. And so that that uh that was the idea was we created a one-year fellowship where veterans would first pop into Cherice team of talent acquisition folks, because a lot of folks coming out had zero exposure to talent acquisition.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

And if I can pause you there, there is no degree for talent acquisition at all, period.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

So go right ahead. So he he, you know, we had um uh one of our uh I call him, I call him a show pony to his face, um, one of our first fellows. I think I know who it is. Yeah, Brian Gomez. I'll name him, I'll name him. Uh and Brian is is phenomenal. And I mean, he drove up from Virginia Beach, Marine, and was like, I'm getting out. I don't, you know, he had worked in Mortuary Affairs. He's like, what do I what do I, you know, and and he took a chance on us. And so he was one of the first fellows that we had come through. And Brian has had an incredible career at Meta. Now he's at Lucid, and you know, these are folks who who have gone on, you know, 10 years later down a path that that I think arguably they probably wouldn't have been exposed to had they not taken a chance on getting into talent. And so that fellowship was you know, six months with Sharif and then a six month embed in those partner companies. And then the idea is uh ideally you get hired where you sit at the end because you're there six months and you didn't make yourself wanted. That's so so or network well enough to and worst case, you've got a great CV that you can then go shop to you know anywhere else. So it's that was kind of the idea. What Bellator has morphed into is folks, you know, connecting like you, and and then you know, we've we've placed three stars in in organizations now. And some of those companies have turned around to us and just said, look, we want you to just source us the folks, and then we want to train them ourselves. And so it's a nonprofit. We just want to get Vets jobs. So we're we're happy with any model, you know, butterfly effect of the folks that have gone into the veterans recruiting organizations of these respective companies and all the people that they've hired. You know, we're into the hundreds, if not thousands, now downstream, which is directly impacted and then add their families and their co-work. I mean, yeah, it's really it's really a cool thing. And um, I don't think either of us saw it becoming what it has, but it's become that because of folks like you all who who help amplify it.

The mental health gap no one talks about

SPEAKER_02 37:42

There's no shortage of veteran support out there. Gro 50,000 nonprofits. Um some do good, some just some are there. For your former agency folks, there's not a lot there. Kind of like with firefighters first chapon, there's not a lot. For the agency, there's not a lot there. You're doing some stuff to help with that, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

For GRS, you know, there had not really been a historical entity to support that. And so for for staff members like myself, I've got access to you know those organizations on that side, but the majority of GRS operators are contractors. And so that that is a is a real need to have that historic, you know, that you've got a program now that's been running at scale for decades. You've got a lot of folks that have come through that and a lot of folks who who who could use support in various ways. So a group of us got together um and and founded um a new group called Global Dagger Association, which is focused exclusively on GRS folks and and contractors are a huge part of that. So uh we were very fortunate to have kind of our first reunion um get together uh back uh in the fall. And um, you know, I think we had almost 400 folks there. And uh so, you know, that includes you know, spouses, families, all of that. Um uh and so you know, we were very fortunate to have be able to give out some awards and and get people together that are, you know, that's a hugely geographic dispersed group because those folks, I mean, if I didn't have to live in DC, I wouldn't have lived in DC. And so most of the contract base lives elsewhere. And so to have everybody together for that, now we have that mechanism, and we kind of an unfortunate number of of folks um, you know, choosing to end their lives in recent years that have come from that program. And so, you know, the the need is unfortunately clear to have access to some more mental health resources and all that. So we've set this up to be an actual sort of central receiving point. It is it is a 501c3, it's a nonprofit. We can give support when it's needed. But we've also served kind of as a focal point to partner with some other organizations like Operator Relief Fund. So um, for folks who aren't as familiar, they they work with a um, they do the double uh stellate ganglion block. So it's a nerve block injection. That's an option for folks. Um, and so those are just tying those networks together, I think, and and giving folks who are maybe a little more cut off a single point of you know contact for that um to to get help or even just to, you know, hey, is anybody you know caught up with Herb? Did you know where he is? And then, you know, and then people pop up, you know, kind of afterwards, like, oh, I think the last time I talked to him was X, and you start to see nobody, everybody, you know, in isolation has no visibility on the whole thing. It's no one's it's no one's fault or no one's dropping a ball. But the thing that was most sort of encouraging to me, I was at a a funeral for for one of the guys um a year or so ago, and it was the first time that I had seen people, not just one or two, but folks from with the group sort of raise their hand to each other and say, Oh, do you know about this resource? Or I've tried this, or hey, I've got a point of contact for that if anybody wants. And um, it was not only welcomed, but it was encouraged. And I don't mean not to say that everyone would have looked down at it before, yeah, but it was one, a function of just knowledge of what resources are actually there, and two, a willingness to be like, yeah, I did that. Like that's that was helpful. It's important for folks, firstly, to know what's there, and then they can choose, you know, to make a choice about what what they think will be most helpful. Just be known their options. The most the most important thing is the best validation is talking to someone that had been through it. And I think it's new that they're coming out, but you know, that in Waves and War, and there's documentaries and things that are coming out now that are a little that are addressing that specifically is like, hey, look, here's this mysterious thing. This is what it is. Yeah, and so I think that's helping get knowledge out for folks.

New treatments & real conversations

SPEAKER_01 41:47

It's just how do we learn new tools? How do we learn to manage these things?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Well, and I think it's like, you know, I mean, I I I went through the the operator relief fund program. People have different responses to it, people have different levels of of, you know, it to me it wasn't some revelatory, life-changing thing. It was, you know, if I'm in a room and all of the noise is coming in all at once, like I can focus the noise a little bit. And and and it wears off some of the the more new non-traditional treatments, you know, 5MEO, the Ibogaine, those things, they are having what uh uh appears to be great impact and and positive effect, but there's not enough of a historical timeline yet for for the policy to chat to catch up and say, okay, that's fine. But I think and you know, I mean, my experience with with folks who have been through that, including folks that are you know are are are maybe still in it seems there's a little bit more of a blind eye turned to it from from because of its efficacy. And so I really think that the policy side, you know, money needs to be spent to figure that out.

What he’d tell the next generation

SPEAKER_02 42:55

But as a speaker, um if you could give a talk, you know, you you do some speaking out there, what what would be your go-to? What would you want? Like if we could set up a dream scenario message for you, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

The engagements that I enjoy the most really are, you know, yesterday I I I had the good fortune, I I spoke to the um to the venture group and to the um entrepreneur society at at JMU and so college kids. Yeah, and and you know, they are they had great questions, but I was I mean, I'm sitting there and I'm I was thinking to myself, I was like, if I had my act together when I was that age at that point, like these guys do, I'm like, I don't know what I would be doing. Um, you know, uh hopefully be retired. But uh no, you know, it was it was really encouraging and impressive. But I think that was those types of engagements where, you know, not that I'm imparting some masterful life pearl of wisdom, but to be able to say, look, don't do this because you know, let me do let me do the hard part for you, and to help folks in that side. But the thing that also really I was, I was, I hate to say taken aback by because that makes it sound like it, it's something I should never have thought could be possible. But every person that I interacted with there singularly at the student level, no one else is in the room. They're not, you know, being heard or say anything, had something really positive to say about another student or someone else. They're like, wow, like she's the smartest at this, and like Herb's been great at that. And like I hope, like, and I was encouraged by that, I think, because it's just sort of they weren't stepping on each other. No, they weren't at all. And there's like, you know, you've got the sort of, and you know, impart my old man hat for a minute, but like, you know, you the the negative side of social media where you're talking about and the you know, there's a lot, there's the bullying and there's all the just sort of like ripping people apart to be able to speak to groups like that for me is really like it selfishly fulfilling because I'm like, all right, if if I could help somebody, you know, along the way, yeah. JMU, they say a thing like Duke's open doors, right? Like you always, you know, hold the door. And so, you know, if you can hold the door for someone via speaking engagement or just an interaction, I think that's like that is what I most enjoy, but it's selfishly, you know, it's rewarding because it's doing something good for someone else, I hope.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

What do you value most in life? Softball question there.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Uh deep one. Um, time. I value time and I'm not good at managing it. But I think in my mind, an act of service is time. Like I'm giving you my time to do something for you. For me at least, that is a real struggle for me to manage time because I don't want to let anyone down. I don't want to say no to people, but I also at some point have to defend some space for myself, and I'm not and I'm not good at that. And I think that is why that's so valuable to me. And it's no one's fault but my own that I overschedule everything. I mean, I could make a drastic life change in you know, facet A, B, or C and free up time, but I don't want to do that because I care about you know my relationship, my jobs, my friends, and so you know what gives, and and something has to, but rarely can that. So that's why, like to me, that is the most precious thing.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Subscribe, like, and comment, and don't forget to set those notifications. We'll see you next week with another special guest.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Until then, own your journey.