The “Broken Veteran” Lie Needs to End (What They’re Not Telling You) | Kevin Schmiegel Interview

The idea that veterans come home “broken” is everywhere but it’s not the full story.

In this episode, Marine veteran and nonprofit leader Kevin Schmiegel shares his journey from service to leadership, through personal struggle, and ultimately to building a movement focused on “military thriving.”

This conversation explores identity after service, the challenges of transition, and why the narrative around veterans may be doing more harm than good.

Connect with Liberty Speaks: 

🌐 Website: www.libertyspeaks.com 

🔗 Follow on Instagram: www.instagram.com/_ownyourjourney_

Transcript

0:00 – Why Are You Special? (Unexpected Answer)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Kevin, why are you special?

SPEAKER_01 0:02

That is the toughest question I've ever heard in my life. I guess I'm special because people who don't know me, when they get to know me, I think they uh appreciate that I'm authentic. And if they give me an opportunity and they don't make judgments in the beginning, they don't mistake passion for someone that is a bull in a china shop, then they give me a fair shot, then we become friends for life.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I I mean the audience is gonna find your special. I mean, you're a Marine, so hey, you got that going for you. All the Marines are gonna think you're special.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Wait, you said the word Marine and you didn't bark.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

I didn't say.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

There you go, there you go.

Marine Identity & Brotherhood Truths

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Come on. No, it's nice to have that audience if you know there's Marines out there. If a Marine doesn't tell you in 10 seconds he's a Marine or she's a Marine, then they're probably not a Marine.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Probably not a Marine. I'm Herb Thompson, a Green Bray and resolutionist.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's less hairy half and branding expert.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true. They are special. Uh you are a nonprofit founder. I mean, you are a force of good in the veteran community, just a real good dude, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

And you're Laura's husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I mean, that's my favorite title.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

You got you got that gone for you. Oh, I'm gonna ask way off script. Marine, founder, veteran, husband, dad. Which one goes first?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Dad.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I mean, I figured you were gonna say that.

The Moment That Made Him Cry (Father → Son → Marine)

SPEAKER_01 1:37

You know, one of the things that I say tying back to the Marine, those titles, it's not or, right? It's and, but one of the most special things, and I get choked up a lot of times when I say this, I'll I'll start a uh talk with someone, and I'll say, I'm the son of a Marine, I'm a Marine myself, and I'm a father of a Marine. And when I get to that last part, I cry like a baby. And the story is really interesting because when I was commissioned a second lieutenant, graduated from the College of the Holy Cross, my dad was reading my oath. And the presiding officer was then Major Joe Dunford, who became our commandant and became the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So, like the first Marine I ever interacted with. My dad's reading the oath, and he got to like the third sentence, right? Say your full name, right? And he completely broke down and cried. And actually, General Dunford, Major Dunford administered my oath. Fast forward to 2014. This is 1989 to 2014. So what is that? Oh, a couple. 25 years. 25 years. I'm in Paris Island. My son's graduating from boot camp at the age of 18. I'm sitting in the audience, retired lieutenant colonel, and they administered the oath to the entire group of Marines graduating. I mean, I was crying like a baby. There's a picture of me hugging him, and my face is all ready.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

You can make Marines cry. That's how you do it.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

As I get older, I cry all the time.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah. That's that's a great segue, though. Is I mean, following your dad is that what led to you joining the Marine Corps and serving?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, I I think a lot of people will think that's the only reason. Um, it certainly was a big reason. My dad never wanted me to be a Marine, and I never really wanted my son to be a Marine. Um, I think selfishly, right? We we know what it's like to serve, we worry about our kids. So he never pushed me, but my dad would talk to these friends of his who were Marines that he served with, and he was a completely different person. I'd see him on the phone, or we would go out with a friend, and you could see this like heart come out of him. And I never had seen that side of my dad. So I never said anything to him, but I think it had a big impression on me. It was also out of necessity. You know, I had five brothers and sisters, big Catholic family, and my dad couldn't afford to pay for me to go to college. I mean, he had to balance those things. So I got a full scholarship. The Marine Corps paid for it and it made a big difference. But the last thing I'll say is my mom had a big influence on my decision to serve, not in the military. Very, very devout Catholic, went to church every day, and we did things in the community. And she taught me the value of service just as much as my dad. And I'm very careful not to include that because I think it's it's easy to say my dad was a Marine, and that's why I'm a Marine. I never encouraged Carl to be a Marine. I had three sons in my first marriage, Luke, Carl, and Jack. I'm gonna see them tonight. And one of them inevitably would see what the Marine Corps did for me and how much service meant to me. And despite me not wanting him to do that, he came to me three months before his 18th birthday and said, Dad, I want to be a Marine. I need you to come to the recruiter's office. I said, No, you don't. I'm not coming. He said, Well, in three months I'm gonna go on my own. So I went.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So you didn't sign for him when he was 17?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I I went I went with him to the recruiter's office and he signed the contract with me there. I also knew the head of that region who was in charge of recruiting. So he got the MOS he wanted, uh, he got the timing he wanted because I was best friends, or went to college with the like the senior person in that region. But also, I mean, in this environment, if your son or daughter decides to serve, you want them to be informed, just like we would. Yeah. Right. If someone came to you for advice about what they should do in the army, or if they wanted to know if you think they could be a Green Beret, you would give them honest advice. Well, we should be doing that for our own kids.

The Career He Never Expected

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Oh, I I agree. And we've talked with our kids, and and none of them are serving or have any plans to, but it's it's interesting how so many military families that one of the kids at least usually ends up serving and following because they see they see it, right? You live it and you talked, we'll get into it with your uh with your mom and stuff as we go forward. But what what was your military service like?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, I mean, I never thought I would serve more than four years. I thought I was paying back a debt that I owed because they gave me an opportunity to go to college for free. I just fell in love with being a Marine and leading Marines, and I had a very um unusual career. I would describe it in three parts, like operationally, I was an artillery officer. But a Marine's a Marine. A Marine is a Marine, always a Marine, a rifleman first. But I think for me, uh the opportunities the Marine Corps gave me later on in my career really set me up for success in who I am, more than being a combat artilleryman and a Marine and a rifleman and things that Marines are proud of. That that I think this common thread that Marines all learn how to be an infantryman first. The Marine Corps invests six months for every officer to go through infantry, basic infantry uh course. So it's called the basic school. But the later, latter part of my career, I kind of during the slow time, I got to get a degree in human resources management. I wound up being as part of the second part of my career, the number two thing I did was to become an expert in manpower and reserve affairs, like uh recruiting, um, assigning, retaining Marines, and and how that applies to the force. That's because they sent me to get another degree uh at the Naval Postgraduate School. And then I had a very unique experience serving for a very high-level uh four uh four-star general. I was I was an aide.

Inside High-Level Leadership (Behind Closed Doors)

SPEAKER_00 7:28

You were an aide, and that can you hit on that? Because that is not something most people know about. And I see a lot of value to that. Not just what you're doing now, but like to your life after the military. What was it like being the aide? You're everywhere with four-star general every day.

The Skill Most Leaders Get Wrong

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Think about every lesson in leadership you could ever think of and being in the room when decisions are made at a very high level and having the trust and confidence of someone who believes in you. I actually have thought about writing a book. We had a conversation. I'm not into just writing a book, but at that time in my life, I'm, I don't know, 36 years old. I'm stationed overseas in Europe. I traveled 286 days a year with General Jones and his role as the NATO commander in US European Command. Yeah, so that was a deployment in itself, right? You think about it, we were responsible for all of Europe, all of Africa, because he U.S. European command had Africa, two-thirds of the land, uh the Earth's uh water mass. And at the time, NATO was taking over a training mission in Iraq. So I traveled to every country in Europe, uh, half the countries in Africa and all over these other places that we had to go. But I the book would be about managing principles, like but the actual leadership lessons I learned. And the really the name of the book could be Casting Your Own Shadows, because you have this opportunity to walk in the shadows of giants, right? General Jones was 6'5, so literally inflated a giant. Right. And you're learning and you're there in the room, and then one day you have the opportunity to start nonprofits, start your own things, be an entrepreneur, run a business, and you learn how to be a CEO. So then you cast your own shadows. And that's not saying that I'm a giant. It's just saying, like, they get you to believe in it. So the book is about getting people in their, in their late 20s, early 30s, maybe even early 40s, to say, you know what, I'm, I'm gonna get a cup of coffee for this guy. I'm gonna hold his bag. I'm gonna be in rooms with people that matter, and I'm gonna learn. And I'm gonna take that step back, even though I think I can aspire to bigger things, because taking a step back will help you get to the next level and take two steps forward. And it it wasn't, I never felt like I was doing um demeaning work. I always felt like I was relevant because he didn't treat me like an aide. He treated me like a chief of staff. So that would be the role. Like being a chief of staff for a high-level person is the most incredible thing you can.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

You learn so much because you see everything, touch everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

And it gave you so many opportunities to network and to learn, you know, who's who and what what other things you could put together strategically, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Right. And also something I'm not good at is when to listen. I think we were talking about it earlier. I love to to help people and to share my perspectives in order to help uh add something to something, to some something that someone's trying to do. But good leaders actually are better listeners.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Laura, your wife, I can hear my phone buzzing. I think she just called in and texted, yeah, he doesn't listen well.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

No, and it is a problem. And I think she'll be also happy to see I don't have my phone because that's probably the biggest culprit uh for me not listening. I need to do better. Like that's a great example. There are times recently because we've been really busy, and you've seen it too with each other, where Laura will say something, and literally 10 minutes after she said it, I'll say, Oh, we need to do this.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

That doesn't happen here. That doesn't happen. Or it happens every day. She's like, I just told you that. I was like, No, you didn't.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Why didn't you tell me that? Uh, I did.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah. And I I mean, I'm saying it publicly. I need to do better. So if uh if she's listening, anyone else is listening, like this idea of being where your feet are and being present. We're busy people, yeah, and we love together being busy and we support each other in that. But when you're in the moment to be present, I'm gonna put my phone down this weekend. We've been away from each other, and I'm gonna put my phone down. I'm not, I'm not going to put it.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

We're gonna check in with Flora and see if you're I love that though, because it's so easy in today's day and age to not be where your feet are to like hear, or I need to worry about my company, I need to worry about this project, or even in as a parent, I need to worry about my kids or wherever. Sometimes you need to just go.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I'm taught telling this to myself. So it's recorded and saying it out loud. Yeah, saying it out loud. Trying to manifest it into my life. Uh, but for everybody out there, just subscribe, hit the little button down there, hear more great stuff. But you you come to the end of your military career, you're saying, okay, time to move on from the Marine Corps, but you still wanted to serve.

Transitioning Out of the Military

SPEAKER_01 12:18

The reality is my time with General Jones wasn't ended after NATO. It was a very unique opportunity. So I went from there, moved back to the States, and I was in charge of the enlisted assignments uh monitors. So the 60 human resources uh specialists, the top Marines in their field that assign 172,000 Marines worldwide. And one day I was sitting at my desk leading those men and women in a really hard time, 2006, 2007, time of war. Every Marine would deploy twice in their first term, and that was like modeled, but really changing the culture, taking care of people. I'm at my desk and General Jones called me and he said, Hey, I I have to ask you a question. He said, Um, you know, what do you know about the Middle East? I said, Well, I know nothing. He said, Well, I'd like you to spend a year in Israel working on the peace process. He had just been named as a special envoy uh for President Bush. And I'm like, sir, I'm not the right guy. Like, I know nothing about you know Israel, Palestine. He's like, Well, that's why you're the right guy, because you have no bias. And I'm like, the boys are young. Uh but I also felt like I owed it. You know what I mean, Herb? Like, I I went to Iraq with General Jones for three weeks here and went to Afghanistan, but I didn't serve like Paul, my business partner. I didn't, I didn't give my time. So it wasn't the same, but I did go away from my family for all of 2008. I'm sharing all that because you know, with uh challenge comes opportunity. And it was another like stepping, stepping out for me. I wore plain clothes. I was going to every country around Israel and and Palestine. I went inside the West Bank.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

I'm smiling because you probably still stuck out like a Marine would. Oh, I did. Like short there.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah, everyone knew a mile away. And I'm sure, I'm I'm sure there were people in Israel that knew exactly things.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

They weren't like, hey, that guy definitely fits in.

From War Rooms to Boardrooms

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Everyone knew why I was there. Yeah, I understand. He's selling computers. That's it. Software salesman. But I but I I got out and General Jones, I'm walking down the hallway with him October of that year, and we were reporting out to Condolisa Rice, Secretary Rice. He's like, Oh, so where are you going next? I'm like, I'm not going anywhere, sir, I'm retiring. He's like, What? He's like, Yeah, you know, this is it. My oldest uh had turned 14. He was starting high school, he had done six moves in 11 years, and I'm like, you know what? That's enough. He's like, okay. The very next day he introduced me to Tom Donahue, the president and CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. A 90-minute conversation turned into an offer for a job. So I never even put my resume out.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

That is really unique.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. I'm just uh I didn't know that. Like you, your last time, and it's so tough when it's overseas like that to like make the transition to be a civilian and coming back home. And then for that to happen, man, that's just a you had to seize the opportunity. Like some people could say luck, but that is Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I also think there's something magical about that year, at least there is there was for us of that realization of like when your kids hit high school, you're like, holy crap, I've almost missed it all.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

And you just like have this like, we got to reset. We got to do something now.

The Veteran Employment Crisis (Hidden Truth)

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Reset, not regret. Yeah. Like, how do you how do you get it to the right point? And and General Jones was incredible in making that introduction. Of course, a week later, he got asked to go to the White House and as the national security advisor a few weeks later when President Obama won the election. And then he asked me if I'd go there instead. But I had already made my decision. I was Tom Donahue's chief of staff for two years. So literally, this is a true story. One day I'm walking down the hallways of the State Department with General Jones and Secretary Rice in my service alphas. The next day I'm walking around the halls of the chamber in a suit with Tom Donohue. So it was literally still the short haircut. So everyone knew I was a Marine. But we traveled around the country, around the world, met, met with CEOs, uh world leaders. I went to Davos, the World Economic Forum, China, India, Brazil, Colombia. So of the 40 countries I didn't see with General Jones, the 50 I saw with him, 90 countries all told in like a seven-year span, it wound up setting me up for success. So when you do a job, to my point about writing a book about being a chief of staff, when you do a job like that, the senior leader who you work for says, What do you want to do next? Tom asked me that question. And I saw this incredible opportunity to serve again. Because when I was the head of enlisted assignments and talk and I talked to young Marines about re-enlisting, that was part of our job. We'd go around the world. It's called the Roadshow. I would do quick exit interviews with young Marines. And inevitably, when I asked them what they were going to do next, they would say, sir, I have no idea. I'm just going to go home and I'll figure it out. So plant that seed. Go around the country with Tom Donahue. I meet with Fortune 500 CEOs. They say they want to hire veterans. We love veterans. At the time in 2011, when Tom asked me that question at the beginning of the year, veteran unemployment was at 10% nationally. For veterans under the age of 24, it was 30%. We had a million unemployed veterans in America. A million. So here are these two things that intersect. CEOs of companies are saying they want to hire us. The chamber didn't believe in the idea. They thought it was government work, like the Department of Labor, the VA, DOD. That's not our job as the business community. And I fundamentally disagreed. The solving of the problem of veteran employment rests with corporate America. Yeah. And that's what we did.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

So he gave me that opportunity and this has probably been said a lot by now, but this was our first disagreement. He's come full circle now. This was our first disagreement.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

I was like, no, it's on the government. They need all these places.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

It's on corporate America. So props for you.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Thank you. I mean, but you founded Heirner Heroes. I mean, I don't even know how many thousands at this point. It's over a million, I think. Yeah, probably. It impacted. I mean, that is just incredible to think you you started and so many people a part of it, and then more people falling on after you.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Do you want to know the best part of it? That's where I met Laura.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Oh. Not only did you help a million veterans and their families, so now make that a big number. You you got the most important one.

Building a Movement That Changed Lives

SPEAKER_01 18:53

It was a real unique journey because at the beginning the chamber really wasn't bought in. In fact, I wasn't really permitted to raise money. What I did is I went around the country and locally, I would get a hotel to give it in kind venue. I would organize employers. I would tend to get a state or local chamber. And some of the larger VSOs and nonprofits that were interested in the work that we were doing to partner and then one city at a time by myself and a part-time employee. I went from city to city for five months and they did 12 events. And I had announced in March when we did the event in Chicago, March 24th. So it was just a couple days ago. Yeah. 15-year anniversary. I would get these opportunities and I'd be very successful. So I'd get a couple thousand to pay for the food. And I wasn't allowed to ask for like a sponsorship of the whole program, like support of the whole program. And then we had some breakthroughs. Like I was in New York City working with veterans on Wall Street, another organization that supported veterans in New York. They had a networking event on the USS Intrepid. They said, hey, why don't you come to a hiring fair there? It was like number 10. Every network covered it. I was on national news. You could see me rocking in front of the Intrepid. It wasn't the boat was rocking. I was so nervous. I was rocking back on my feet. But people started to hear about it and being on the news and building a brand. Right. A month later, I was at Sony Studios in Los Angeles. Prince William and Kate came to the event. We were covered by a hundred different networks worldwide. A billion viewers, 200 employers, 2,000 veterans. I mean, I got to meet William, Prince William and Kate, right? But a philanthropist saw it, called me out to Minneapolis. Secretary Jim Nicholson, who was close friends with Tom Donahue, knew the West Point graduate, Lee Anderson, who was there. I wasn't raising money. I had a deck. At the end of the meeting, he said, You look tired. You're never going to get to a hundred hiring fairs if you don't have a team. I'm going to give you three million dollars. And my mouth went over.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

You're like, thank you. Also, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

So you didn't even ask. He just yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And here's the great part. I went back and told Tom, and then everyone believed.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, because at that point, no, they haven't.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Right. So here's the most special part. So for the five months, 25 of the biggest employers in America were getting all this for free. They came to the first 12 events. They were on TV with me. And what was really special about that, right, is NBC had agreed to cover all of our hiring fares going forward. So we had the brand guarantee. So I sent a letter the day after Tom said it was okay to fundraise. Sent a letter to 25 companies. 14 came back and committed$100,000 or$250,000. And we raised$1.8 million in nine days.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

In the wake of that. And then we just took off. Companies wanted to be a part of it. And at the beginning, they wanted to be a part about a part of hiring our heroes because it was the right thing to do. And then they hired Hired veterans and they saw it was right for their business.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

It's all the value beside the charity. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Right. The ROI of hiring someone. And that's why veteran unemployment is at 3%. That's why veteran employment for the last 13 years, really since 2013, 2014, has been lower than civilian unemployment. Most people don't know that because we still talk about it like it's a problem. Yeah. It's not as big a problem. I think we need to do better.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

I think veteran retention is still a major problem.

Why Companies Get Veterans WRONG

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yes. Right. How do how do companies go beyond military-friendly? Hiring our heroes was a military-friendly movement. It's a brand. Companies still love that brand and they're still committed to it. And I'm very proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

As you should be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

But I think we need to go beyond that, to your point. It has to be more about retention, full employment, purpose, giving veterans what they need and spouses what they need to thrive in the workplace, but also to thrive outside of the workplace.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

And also ensuring that they have been put into the right location in their role, that they, you know, feel valued and supported. Because oftentimes there's a disconnect from those that have placed people in roles to really understand the value that those veterans bring.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

And I think we need to do a better job ourselves as individuals. I think oftentimes in transition out of uniform, we're entitling young people and we're saying you need to get a job. And get our benefits. Like these are fundamental things that happen in transition. We were talking about it yesterday at an event we did that Herb participated in and led and launched with us. I think there's this incredible question we should ask ourselves is all that worth it? Like, why are we cramming five days of really poor content to a non-captive audience, a young person who really is not listening? Doesn't give a just want to be they're told it's mandatory, it's mandatory to be there.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

And they're doing it. And really we need a half a day with them. And we should say, what brings you joy? What are you really good at?

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Yeah.

The 5 Things Veterans Actually Need

SPEAKER_01 24:03

How do you want to make money or make a difference and give back to your community? These are the three questions we should ask. And then we should say, this is what you have in the military. Like this is what you were you were given. Yeah. And it was a gift to you. And you were thriving because you had meaningful employment, because you had a sense of purpose through service, because you were part of a connected community and a tribe, because you took care of your health physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And because the military, despite what anyone may think, actually allows us to constantly seek self-improvement through education, training, certification, being a mentor, being a mentee. The kit bag we call it, right? And listen, no matter what people say, jumping out of airplane is putting something in your kit bag because you're overcoming fear, going to graduate school, you know, going to mountain warfare school. Like these are things that make us strong and courageous and resilient. Whether or not we think about it that way, but getting that. And those five things, why are we not demanding that when we leave of ourselves and of our employers and of the communities where we live, work, and serve?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Absolutely. Definitely to hear speakers like Kevin, other great engaging speakers, checks out www.libertyspeaks.com. I might have put an extra W in there.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

That was counting.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Three W's we all like a win.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

We only have three for those going.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

LibertySpeaks.com, get an engaging speaker for an event, but you were doing well at the Chamber of Commerce doing that. And then it kind of how did you get to this purpose joined that? Because I from talk with you, I know you went through a down period. So what happened when you were at that height of yeah, everything's great, raising all this money, doing all this good traveling everywhere, and then so in 2013, probably around May or June, I had been there doing that work about two and a half years.

The Downward Spiral No One Saw

SPEAKER_01 25:54

And I I had been working about 80 or 90 hours a week. I was deployed again, 180 days on the road. Um, out of the 500 hiring events that we did in the first two years, I was at half of them. I'd seen all 50 states, and I was just run down. Like I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. And the chamber was really helpful. They wanted me to stay. Uh, they were very gracious in offering me a lot of perks and benefits that would take some of the burden off of me. But at that point, it was too late. My first marriage had suffered, my kids had suffered, and I had suffered, and even though I didn't think about it that way. And listen, when a when a 23-year-old sergeant comes up to you and says, Sir, you changed my life today. I got a job, you can quickly become addicted to making change and making a difference in someone's life. So I saw the writing on the wall. I left. I remember how hard it was, but I left and it was the worst thing I ever did because I didn't save my first marriage and I was miserable. I lost my purpose. I lost my community, like all these people who I knew that were amazing leaders that helped me create this change and who I loved. Like you love the people you work with, you love the advisors and the people that are part of this movement. And I I really didn't take care of my health. So I started drinking too much. I wasn't getting sleep, and the spiral was real. The chamber was great. Did you isolate, like kind of just not talk to many people? I didn't, I wasn't the same person. I didn't want people to see me that way. But I got some treatment, not the right treatment. The chamber welcomed me back. They were, they were an incredible employer. And they gave me a job. I was responsible for development. I was the vice president of development for companies that have about$500 million to$5 billion of revenue. And I was really good at it. I I'm good at getting people to believe in something. I knew everything about the chamber because I was with Tom Donahue. I was part of the foundation, and the hiring her heroes was part of the chamber's foundation. So I was very effective at that. And I raised a lot of money and I was getting paid a lot of money, and I was only working half the time, and I've never been more miserable in my life. So I really spiraled. It was a four-year, um, three year, three and a half year decline.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Can I stop you right there? Nuts. I think so many often people because I've been there, you know, I've been in some dark places. People think it's this, but it is the oftentimes that slow spiral.

The Moment That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_01 28:22

There are a lot of contributing factors like getting divorced, feeling guilty about that. I was more alone and isolated. I lived in an apartment in Shurlington, and it was it was a tough time. Um, I tell the story to some people how I got out of it, but it wasn't like it was a snap of a finger. So I'm sitting at my desk at the chamber in April of 2016. I was invited to uh Washington Capitals game. Bonnie Carroll at the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors invited me. And they have a VIP event every year, and um, they had these caps. They give out these caps at the game, it says courage on it. And I mean, I was in a bad way. They give me the cap, I put it on. I'm wearing a suit and a cap. I just come from the chamber and I'm just standing in the back of the room. I was probably drinking something, probably a bourbon and ginger ale or something like that. Yeah, not water. Not water, for sure. And a Vietnam veteran who had served with General Jones uh named Buzz Hefty, saw me in the back of the room, and he came up to me and said, you know, what's wrong? What's bothering you? So I shared what was going on, and he could clearly see it. He didn't have I didn't have to tell him much. And he said, Well, that's easy, just go back to nonprofit work, just like that. Right. So the next day, true story, I go back to the chamber. I'm sitting at my lonely desk, minding my own business, making calls, working with the members that I had brought in. And in the corner of my desk is the courage cap, just sitting there, bred with red with blue writing and courage, capitals gray and black and white, camouflage brim. And Corn Ferry called me, you know, the search firm, executive search firm, and they were looking for a new CEO of a nonprofit. This is within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Wow.

Finding Purpose Again

SPEAKER_01 30:09

If that's not a message from a divine intervention. Right. And they I went in for an interview a week later. I got the offer for to be the CEO of a scholarship foundation for military families. Very small, day to day, month to month. Like I'm making payroll. I tripled it in size in a year and a half, but I was I still was like not full completely fulfilled. Started running marathons, ran a 50 uh ran a marathon on my 50th birthday, the Marine Corps marathon. The the previous time was 17 years earlier. And then it was slowly and gradually, like I found my purpose again. I was taking care of my health. I was part of a connected community because I was a nonprofit leader and all these people were coming back saying, okay, he's okay. He's getting out of this. We can see the same Kevin.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Did anyone at that time say, like, I can tell a difference or I'm glad to see you're doing better? And did it ever make you wonder, like, why didn't anyone intervene?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Well, no, you they couldn't. Like they the only person that could help were the people closest to me. Laura, uh, Paul, my business partner, and myself. My family, my like my siblings, my parents, but they didn't know what to do. I got the right treatment. Let's let's not discount like it took it took that long to get the right treatment. This is everyone's different. That worked for me. Like, and that's why people are trying to figure that out. But I want to be like really crystal clear. That's getting the right treatment is only one part of it. I found my purpose. I was connected again. I took care of my health. I was constantly seeking self-improvement and I had meaningful employment. And now I know those are the five things I need. Now, do I know the signs when I'm overworked? Yes. Do I know when I'm not sleeping? Do I know when I'm drinking too much? Do I know when I'm not taking care of absolutely? We all know that.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

And then I have a partner. Like you both have Laura all the time. Like she was my caregiver. Like we never use that term publicly.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

She was my caregiver. Like, make no mistake about it.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

She literally was part of my life and saved my life. There's no, there's no, I'm not pulling any punches because it's true. And I never talk about that, and she didn't expect me to.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

But she knows, like she knows now. She sees the signs, and I need that in someone. So she saw me come through it and was with me every step of the way. But there were other people that we have in our networks that would have been there too. It's just that I felt comfortable. And then I went to another nonprofit and it just got better and better because it was a much bigger nonprofit and I was making much more of an impact. And I was filling my cup. So all I can say is that's the why we do the work that we do. The work that I do now is not is not like only focused on the good side of things. It's actually born out of weakness and struggle. And I really believe that the work that we do is focused on improving the trajectory. So when people hit that struggle, which they will, I mean, I will again, you will again, we all will.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

But when you hit it, knowing the signs and knowing that you have to find those things and taking it on yourself to say, okay, I have to find those five things again, because we're all human beings and we're all going to falter. We're all going to fail. We're all going to struggle. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

And accepting that that pivot isn't necessarily a failure, and not to plug this book, because I think I I I recommend it, probably over-recommend it, but I love this component of it. The design your life book talks about how, as a society, for so many years we had this expectation that you pick one career and that's it for life. And so then that we feel this guilt and shame if we feel there's a need to pivot. But I think there's so much power in releasing that expectation of ourselves and accepting that, like maybe it worked for you for a few years, but maybe now it's time to move on to something else. Yeah. And maybe it's time to reinvent that.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Well, and maybe we're wired that way. Yeah. I mean, I think we have a responsibility to talk to veterans, military spouses about the opportunity to reinvent yourself, transform yourself. We transformed ourselves as Marines and soldiers and sailors and airmen. We have to think about that. I've had seven jobs since I left the Marine Corps, and I had seven jobs or seven duty stations in the Marine Corps. And every three years, right? You get that itchiness, like, oh, maybe I should try something new. Maybe that's a good thing. And the the difference is now with zero mills and who I am as a person at 58, I can control that. So I have a company, it's my own company, it's focused on doing well and doing good. And I know exactly where I sit because I ask myself these three questions. What brings me joy? What am I good at? And what does my community need for me?

SPEAKER_03 35:03

And I You're designing your life.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I created the perfect Venn diagram.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

And I control that and I can evolve it to do other things that aren't filling my cups. So if I'm lacking a little bit of purpose or connection or I'm not taking care of my health, I can tweak it. We're chemistry projects. Like we're literally all wired differently. So some of us over-index more than others. And I think I need to do something different every three years. And maybe the military is responsible for that. But it's not a bad thing. I know it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I'm thinking about it because even as a I'm just out of this now. Like even as a kid, it was always the next sports season. Like I was transforming from different things. I'm assuming you were in sports and athlete. And then you go to college and it's always, yes, you're in the same college if you went that way. But like that's transforming year to year. And then the military, and like for you, you moved all over North Carolina as a pastor kid. So there was always this change. And they get in the military and they come out, and there is that misconception, I think, of like, oh, you do this and you do it forever.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Yeah. And our our good friend Chantel, Dr. Chantal Pratt, talks about, you know, neuroscience and the difference of brains, but she's also captured it really well in that everything that we experience is shaping our brain. And our brain then develops this way, you know, and wants to continue to grow. And it is so much of what we've experienced in the past, you know, that that is responsible for that. So I think it's really fascinating.

The Trap of Always Chasing “More”

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And for me, the hard, I would tell you it's something I'm still working on, but put a lot of work in over the last couple of years is not chasing something. Not like in the military, we chased the next assignment, the next whatever the next promotion. Promotion. Yeah, what like this school. And then it was afterwards I was doing the same thing. And then I was like, how is it okay? How can I be okay just being okay?

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I kept saying you're going on an eight mile, not, you know, a non-trail hike every day mentally. There's no trail. You're forging this trail eight miles straight up a mountain every day. But then when you get to the top, you immediately start looking around, going, what mountain am I climbing tomorrow? And then you run back down. You're not stopping and looking around at the scenery that you busted your butt to get to that day and soaking it in and being present in it. You're immediately shifting to what tomorrow's hike is going to be.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

And it's not always healthy.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Right.

What Really Matters at the End

SPEAKER_01 37:39

It's the same thing when I use the Marine Sergeant analogy and this young kid who came up to me in Chicago and said, I changed his life. You want to change another life and another life and another life. And I think at the end of the day, where I am now is I want to influence one life at a time and really soak it in and spend more time with that person. Like really invest in them and have them invest in back. It could be mentor, mentee, mentee, mentor. It doesn't matter. But at the end of the day, when we get to finally say goodbye to the serf and go on to something bigger, um, because I believe in that, who's gonna be at the service? Is it gonna be the million people that got a job through hiring our heroes? It isn't. It's gonna be Laura and Paul. Hopefully, you guys will come. And it'll be people that we work with one-on-one and we we build a relationship with and that they see us for who we are because they gave us a chance to be ourselves and and they celebrated your wins quietly, whether you knew it or not. Right. And and listen, I'll never forget that doing something big made a big difference. But your legacy is left in the people that you that you spend your most time with. And I spent a fraction of a t of uh a blip, a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a minute of time when you spread it out across all these people by doing something that had a big vision and executing it. And I think the right way of thinking about our country going forward and what we need is we need to invest in young people and spend time with them and share what we're doing in a way where we're influencing them to carry the torch of service and carry the torch of what makes this country special. And we all, we all have that responsibility. And I think I'm seeing that more and more. So even the work that I'm doing with Zero Mills now, which has a very specific mission, I still have a thirst and a hunger to help young people see the value of service. That that's not about serving in the military.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Healthcare teachers, first responders, like our country is it does take a uniform to serve.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Right. Yeah. You don't need a badge or some fancy title to serve and do good.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

And everyone wants to do it. It's the one common bond that every American shares. It's the one thing that will bridge divides. It's the one thing that it doesn't matter what the color of your skin is, it doesn't matter what your ethnicity is, it doesn't matter what your religion or politics is. When I see people come to serve together for whatever, uh a food bank, um, a care package event, cleaning up a park, they are they're lining up to go inside or go outside. Yeah. And if you look at the line, you'll see every type of American, every walk of life you can think of. And that in the course of the service project, they start understanding that they actually share a lot more in common than what makes them different. It's a really incredible experience. Yeah. And I want to devote more of my time to that.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

It is one of our going off on a tangent here, one of our favorite places to go is this Amish food market. And it's in um a very urban area. So you you see an interesting group of people there, and everyone gets along, and everyone is like, yeah, getting their food and getting their products. And it's just so cool because it's we are more alike and together, the non Corey and I talk about all the time. It's just like it's it's like a very microcosm of that in the projects you're talking about that we see.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Is to, and that was what we hope to do with this podcast was to show that we're more alike than what people think, and that that division and unity is manufactured and that if you take a step back, you can see it anywhere. You can see it at the market, you can see it serving, um, you can see it on this podcast. You know, it it's it's there. We just have to look for that.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah. Look for it and and draw it out. Yeah. I I think there's so many stories I could share about it, but maybe another time and place.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

No, but I want to hit on zero mills. You what is the mission of zero bills? What are you doing now?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I mean, I think the bigger question as we got to that, because it took a while, is when I was at this third nonprofit, a lot of what I wanted to do, the board didn't want to do anymore. And I was okay with that because I really saw this opportunity with service and bridging divides. But at the same time, I saw a problem in our community. And I go back to these three questions. What brings me joy? What am I good at? And what does my community need from me? And I think over time I've been really good at that third part. And because of the I inherently serving gives me joy, and I know what I'm good at as a nonprofit leader. I saw something that our community fundamentally needed, and that is addressing the broken veteran narrative. There, I I mean, it it is endemic. And it's it's not surprising. Like we fought for in war for 20 years, and there was this proliferation of nonprofits, a sea of goodwill, 40,000 people standing up saying, I want to serve and help veterans and their families, service members and their families, military spouses and their families. And those nonprofits started to elicit sympathy and pity for challenges and struggles and trials, right? Instead of the opportunities and the strengths and the triumphs. So listen, I I struggle myself. So there's no better person in this country to stand up and say enough is enough. Yeah, we have people who are broken, but a vast majority of us are thriving. So we saw this problem and we said, you know what? We're gonna create a company that tries to get organizations and communities to step up and go beyond military-friendly. Instead of doing something ordinary, like hiring people, helping solve a problem, helping veterans, we've created a movement. We're creating a movement where organizations do something extraordinary. And that's creating environments where veterans, military spouses, and their families are seen and heard the way we should be seen and heard. Because we are thriving. And the military, we are thriving because of our service, not in spite of it. And and I'm not saying it has to be balance. We have to we have to swing the pendulum back and not so far where we're not letting our brothers and sisters who are struggling not get the things that they need. We have a responsibility because young people aren't going to serve. Even our sons and daughters. Like Carl may not have served if he saw this.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

And and he may have said, you know what, I don't want to be broken like those veterans.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

And that's going to be a that's going to be our biggest challenge going forward.

Why This Narrative Is Dangerous

SPEAKER_00 44:27

I do think I said it yesterday, the thing, I think it is a national security issue of no one wants war, but let's be real, it's coming at some point. And if we're not taking care of veterans doing that, the youngsters are. And the requirements about how society is changing, the less people are even eligible to serve.

A National Security Issue?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

There's this great quote that I use as a nonprofit leader. And I I don't know if you were there yesterday when I mentioned this. The willingness with which young people are likely to serve in future wars shall be directly proportional to how they perceive the previous generations were treated and appreciated by their nation. So I look at the words treated and appreciated different than this is the difference between sympathy and pity and understanding and empathy. Treated doesn't mean entitling us. Treated means empowering us after our service to realize our full potential again and transform ourselves into civilians. Everyone thinks treated means giving us benefits and serving us and helping us. Appreciated doesn't mean just being grateful for and saying thank you for your service. Appreciated means understanding. And if we understand the value of service, if we really want to empower people to achieve their full potential, we have to go beyond friendly. Friendly is disrespectful. Like, are you saying you're doing me a favor by giving me a job or letting me live in your in your community?

SPEAKER_04 45:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

I I account for$2.1 trillion in the economy as a consumer. I bring a trillion dollars of revenue to this economy as a small business owner, veterans, veterans, small business owners, and our families. Like, let's stop accepting that as a community. So military thriving is on us. It's about how we want to change the narrative. And we decide who we work for. We decide who we give our time, talent, and treasure to. If it's a nonprofit that's talking about us in a way that we don't believe, and we decide where we live, work, and serve and run our businesses.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Having the opportunity to reframe those conversations will be really instrumental on both sides to resolve that.

What “Military Thriving” Really Means

SPEAKER_01 46:32

And that's and that's what we built the company around is advising companies, large and small, about how to take care of their people. It's kind of really simple. So how do you integrate your recruiting talent strategy, people strategy with a social impact strategy that gives veterans, military spouses, and all your employees purpose through service, connection, health, and filling their kit bags up? And we know every nonprofit in the military and veteran community. So we're we're more experts in that. And we're typically focused on veteran ERGs, but this applies to everyone because everyone needs the things that veterans need. We just over-index on a lot of these things because of our experience in the military. And then tying that, those two pillars, people, impact, to storytelling, and integrating the three things because inside companies it's siloed. And then your veteran ERG or all your ERGs, your employee resource groups, business resource groups become your weapon system. They become your best recruiters and retainers. They become your best volunteers at the local level. They become your best storytellers. And what does that do? It lowers recruiting and retention cost and it drives consumer behavior because you're doing, you're no longer military-friendly. You're beyond everyone else. They see you as excellent, extraordinary versus ordinary.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

It's that brand awareness. It's it's exponentially improving upon.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

It is. And I love the military thriving and that just that mindset and veterans get out there doing it because we know so many veterans who are out there crushing. Yes, like you, I, we've had our struggles. We, you know, pulled up by the bootstraps, used resources, now let's go. There's so much out there, and it's I just want to see more of it. And like, and it doesn't have to be at the big corporations. You can have your own small business and you can do do these things for veterans. And I I mean, it's what I always say is like that's what I think our country needs, and that's why we do what we do.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

And we appreciate you doing it. I I I mean, I think we say all the time that everything in life happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

You find good people to be around, and I think that's a common denominator with both of us is surround yourself with good people, do good things, good stuff happens. And we happen, I mean, we've known each other online for years, but like I think last year was the first time we met in person, and then now, you know, going forward, and it's just doing good.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

It's not that hard.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

What are your goals for the next three to five years with XeroMuse?

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Since you're gonna pivot because you can't sit still.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yeah. Well, I think I can do both. Uh the Laura doesn't know I said that. No, I think I can. I I think our goals for the first three or five next three to five years is just to model in a couple of companies, a couple universities, a couple of communities, what right looks like. And then military thriving is taking hold. You see people, you see organizations, even even ones that are eliciting sympathy and pity using the word, and that's that's when I know something's taking hold. But I'm not looking to create this in every company. I'm not looking this uh to create this in every community.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

But if you are, you have a program where you can support that, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Right. And I think that will happen over time. Someone will see it and they'll they'll they'll take zero mills on board and they'll help us scale it. I was asked that question a lot because people really see the value in what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

It's applicable to all workforce, not just military.

How Companies Should Actually Support Veterans

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Well, and we should want that. Like here's the difference between a lot of the mindsets that have existed the broken veteran narrative versus versus thriving, is we as a community should want people to recognize the challenges, but then to use the the things that helped us get through those challenges strength, resilience, connection. I mean, we have the strongest community in the world. If you just look across LinkedIn and other networks, we're very supportive of each other. So I actually think that companies, if they understand that that brings value across across the enterprise, that they're more likely to invest in these strategies. I mean, that's what we say. This is an investment, and military thriving is a revenue generator, not a cost center. I think a lot of companies are looking at ways to reduce cost and they have to see the value. And I completely agree with it.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

Sure. They have to have an ROI at the end of the day to support the purchase that they make.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Employee wellness is a good example. Like these ideas of meaningful employment, employers should pride themselves in giving their employees meaningful employment. But the other four things, if they see that as a cost, then they're not going to act on it. I think if you can show them that aligning these three pillars of people, impact storytelling, empowering your employees to find those other four things, if you can prove it lowers recruiting and retention costs by millions of dollars. Absolutely. And you can prove that consumers actually resonate with them and and your employees are actually helping you grow, then they'll invest in it. But you have to make the case. You can't just say it. You have to you have to actually measure it.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Yeah, and you have to be able to communicate those metrics.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah. And and and that's uh that's part of the work we do. So when Zero Mills connects a company and creating the impact strategy and giving the employee resource groups opportunities to serve with nonprofits, we actually measure every nonprofit to make the case that they should give more to one and less to another. One company we consulted on military thriving. We connected them with eight nonprofits over a year. And it culminated in this virtual hiring event. They had a thousand jobs they wanted to fill. The eight nonprofits we created unique URLs for. This is in a month. We drove 520 through the relationships through the nonprofits, no paid media, no, they didn't pay a dollar. This was all Zero Mills doing the work. Using the nonprofits that we had built relationships with, and they created this virtual platform where they had recruiters for the jobs they were looking for, the employee resource groups, and then veterans and military spouses who were already in the jobs. 520 people signed up, 320 actually showed. That's actually pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

Half of those you invite are actually interested in half of those will actually attend. Yes. So that's over that much.

The ROI of Doing It Right

SPEAKER_01 52:51

And it's because of the trust we have with the community. Like everyone knows I founded hiring our heroes. Everyone knows I ran two national nonprofits, and everyone, military thriving resonates with our community. When I speak publicly, people are in our community's nodding their heads. So we were gonna drive those people because of our brand. Of the 320 people, that company hired 40 people.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Now, take this on board. It cost on average, this is for a lower level of hire,$7,500 per person. They save$300,000 in cost without paying a dollar. Yeah. And we were being retained at a very modest level to build that corpus. Here's the key. Only two of the eight nonprofits drove 95% of the people who registered showed up, and almost 100% of the hires, 39 of the 40 hires. So we said to them, hey, you should invest in these two and not invest in the six, the other six. I told the nonprofit leaders that's what we were doing. So the the nonprofits that drove that traffic intentionally worked to do that. The problem was the company didn't want to invest more money. They wanted to do that every quarter. And I said, Well, you should give the nonprofits money. And we walked away from a Fortune 50%. Because they saved so much money with the and they should invest it. Yeah. Imagine doing that every quarter and you save$1.2 million. And they weren't doing any marketing.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

It's just greed if you're not willing to know corporate greed.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

They weren't even military-friendly. They just wanted to put butts in seats.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

Yeah. Yeah. That's just corporate greed. And good for you for walking away and standing on business.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Well, we owe that to our community. If we believe our own BS, and I believe my BS, I actually think that this is the most important thing and what my community needs. Yeah. And I I think there are very few people. I think you're one of them too. I think Jason is one of them too. And we were all together yesterday. I think there are people out there. Yeah. Yeah, Jason Redmond. I think there are people out there that really believe this and we need them to be part of it. I know what I'm good at. And I've done this and I knew that this is what my community needed. And I have a responsibility.

SPEAKER_04 54:55

Yeah.

Final Perspective That Changes Everything

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Because of my challenges. Like I think a lot of people, I've been told by major nonprofits, VSOs to be careful. Be careful not to say thriving too much, because you may hurt the veteran who's challenged. And I and I literally looked him right in the eye and said, You just lit a fire that you you have no idea because I'm not being careful. Yeah. And you're telling the wrong guy. Yeah. Because I know what it was like to barely survive.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

We've seen it so many nonprofits, but now they get their funding. They have it is they're very protective of that.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

And they're like, oh, if this gets better, which is the end goal, we call it the CA effect where it's like the poor pitiful puppy, the the arms of the angels, you know, it's eliciting sympathy, you know, and and the veterans shouldn't all be seen as the poor pitiful puppy.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

That's exactly what my business partner, retired Colonel Paul Cuchinata, says the poor pitiful puppy.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Well, why aren't they showing the puppy after they get the treatment or the like the services they need? They don't show them thriving. Right, jumping around through hoops and and running after a ball because that's where they get to. So that doesn't elicit funds. No, exactly. And and listen, the word nonprofit is a misnomer. There's no such thing as a nonprofit. You have to run a profit. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

It's for purpose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

It shouldn't be But it's a business, and the point of business is it has to make some money or you And I'm gonna go out on a limb here since we got on this soapbox because it's one I want to get on. They should pay their employees if they have monetary funds to do so. The boards have approved these people to be paid, then we should be looking at who gets paid what, just like we do in an organization.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

In any company.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

Any company, which includes location, experience.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

Are you also a contributing member of these sponsorships that are coming in? There's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

I I mean, like we can go on fire right now with this topic because people need to do what they call due diligence. And what's happening in the space is there are nonprofits that are paying their senior people an extraordinary amount of money.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

And companies don't even look at a 990. They're not even researching what they're paying people and what measures matter and what impact they're making, and whether or not that growth of the business, the nonprofit, it is different. Like we're accountable to our community as a nonprofit leader. Like you're measured by a different standard and you should be paid well. Yeah. But that should go across the organization.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

Absolutely. I do.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

I run nonprofits and it came to a point where they were paying me bonuses, and I got paid really well. I get paid a lot less than I got paid at the nonprofits.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And I'm making a greater difference. That's my choice. I'm not so I think what needs to happen is we need to look at the entire space. There are for-profit companies that help veterans get jobs, and there are nonprofits that help veterans get jobs. And the nonprofit CEO salaries are exorbitantly high compared to the for-profit CEOs and their employees. And the for-profits are completely for free too, to veterans and their spouses. So I never look at that term. I look at the people who are making an impact for our community. I want them all to do well, but I think we need to hold the same standard. And I talked about this a bunch of times publicly now. And I think there's unfair access for nonprofits to governments. They use that access to give their funders access to. And listen, I'm I know the work that we're doing is important. And I may not get me get a meeting because Zero Mills is a service-disabled veteran-owned small business that has literally helped raise$60 million for 17 nonprofits since we started of new money. It's impacted hundreds of thousands of people. And we're getting people to work together instead of compete against each other. So why wouldn't I get a meeting in any government agency or testify before Congress about the work that we're doing that is equally, if not more important, than all the ones that are listing symphony and pity and getting Congress and all these agencies to talk about our community the wrong way too? Because the public sector has to message the right way about our community too. And I see that change starting to happen. But there's a lot of duplicity in the word nonprofit itself. And I think we need to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

What's over 50,000? I don't even know what the number is. It's over 50,000. It's clear it's getting close. It's getting close to 50. I mean, it's so and there's a lot of good ones, and there's a lot of there just out there. But to me, in some of them, you don't have to be at that big mega scale. You could do something small in your local community.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

I like the advice that you give people when they reach out to you and say, thinking of starting a nonprofit, I want to know what words of wisdom you might have for me, basically. And he always starts with, What's your goal? You are very real with them and say, like, maybe just do some research and find the ones that are already in that space and talk to them about how you could be a part of their like run a program for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

Or one of the things that I'm working on is a 10-week curriculum for smaller nonprofits because one, I can draw them in and have the same conversation that you're having and be really honest and open with them and say, hey, you might want to look at doing this with someone else because I know the entire space. And two, I really believe that there are a lot of the 40,000 or 45 or 50,000 are actually helping a lot of veterans at the local level or families, or it doesn't matter. It's not just the military and veteran space, that they're helping people from falling through the cracks because all hiring, all change, all impact, all growth happens at the local level. So I'm not of the school of disparaging small leaders because even a mom and dad that started a small nonprofit to honor their son or daughters, like, or an illness that they had or whatever, like that's that's the service project in a nutshell. So I'm um creating cohorts of small nonprofit leaders, and over a 10-week period, I'm teaching them through my own experiences how to grow their nonprofits. And they'll know at the end of that whether or not it was made for them. Because it's not easy.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:16

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

It is not, it is We both have had nonprofits. Yeah, so you know. And it's probably, I mean, it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:22

We both figured out we needed a for-profit.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

Yeah, so you can do well and do good. Like, so I've had this experience through presidential leadership scholars, and one of the classmates of mine is from India. He's um uh oral surgeon, and he's running a nonprofit. Anyway, his wife has an apparel company, and he asked me about the cap one day, and I told him this story about why I wear a hat. This is why I wear these hats. I just feel more comfortable. It's like when your cap becomes your cape. So I tell him that. He's like, Well, my wife has this apparel company. So, no joke. She literally offered to design um a version of this scally cap, and I'm gonna call them schmally caps. But here's the cool part Schmally cap. So I'm not taking myself too seriously, but really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

It reminds me of Schmelly cap. I feel like I'm on shark tinkering.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

I'm like, Yeah, let's get on it. So the S and the C in the logo they created actually looks like a cape, like the form of a cape.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

But for each cap that they make, the the original one is gonna have colorings and it's gonna have the story about the one I told you, the courage cap. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't wear a baseball cap to speak publicly, so I wear a scally cap. But each one will be designed in honor of someone I served with who's serving, and it's gonna go to a vast majority of the proceeds, they're gonna go to supporting a nonprofit. So it's about the Bamba model. But a close friend of mine, Kevin Shea, an Irishman who's larger than life, he he he was a rugby player at Air Force Academy, became a Marine, which is rare for the Air Force Academy, started the Marine Corps rugby team, in essence, larger than life, like this big Irishman. He went to Iraq and he was a major. At the time, he was the oldest active duty service member killed in Iraq. Um, September 14th of 2004. It was on his 38th birthday, and he left behind a wife and two two kids. So the idea behind it is on St. Paddy's Day or around March, because we were supposed to do it this year, but maybe it'll be next year. There'll be a green cap that'll be designed, and it'll be in honor of Kevin Shea. And that money will go to a taps or wear blue run to remember. So it's honoring Kevin. It's telling his story in a very powerful way. Because there's a story behind like our relationship, and he would have changed the world. Like this guy was larger than life, like unbelievable. So I I'm sharing that not because I want to sell caps. I I'll give them away. I don't really care about that. It's about this idea that we're gonna talk about the giving away part.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

We want it to make money so it can go to these nonprofits and I'll let you know when we roll it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

I I I just think that I think that we're at the point in our lives where we're we're hitting, we're just hitting our stride. And we have to think bigger in what we're doing. So I'm going to do this with zero mills over the next three to five years. But I have a big cup to fill and I have a lot of things that I still want to accomplish. And the two biggest things are really looking across the space at these younger leaders who I can pass the torch to of service and and giving them the tools they need to grow like I did. Because most of the things that I learned, they have in them. And it's identifying the right people to go through this together, and then they become a cohort and a collective, and they become the next hiring our heroes or the next operation of gratitude. And and I think that's very achievable. And those, those will be the people that come to the memorial service and say, Kevin, really helped me. And it's not about me helping them because they help me too in mentoring people and coaching them and and getting them to do that. And then the last thing is just like meeting more people like you that we can work with together that are doing all these things too, and shining a spotlight on what you're doing. Like I think, I think those are the things that we need to do as leaders is how can we create these groups, these collectives who are real like you we were on stage yesterday. We were on the stage together, and Jason Redman and Herb and I, we were saying the same things, we were just saying in a different way. Yeah. And there's this really powerful thing that's going on right now. We do sit, we are saying exactly the same things. Like I use national security imperative. So how do you take that together? Right. And they so there's these young leaders that for the service project that I can help groom, and then there's these other like people that are well beyond me, like you and Jason, who I can start to align with and and message together and and show up for one another. Like, and that means just commenting hey, I see. What you're saying, Herb, and I I agree with that. I may say it a different way, but that's how we create change together.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Together. I do have one final question though.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

What do you value most in life?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Laura. I was gonna say my kids again, but I I found my soulmate, and it's an unusual thing where everything you do in life is with some other person and you make each other better and you want to be better for each other. And I think at this time in my life, having that is really important. I mean, it's important for her too, let's be honest. But but recognizing what you can have and and then finding it. Um and it also forces you to think I'm never gonna settle for anything again. If I'm traveling or she's traveling, when we wake up, we talk to each other, when we go to bed, we talk to each other, and when something good happens or bad happens, we talk to each other. And that's a marriage and a partnership.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Subscribe, like, and comment, and don't forget to set those notifications. We'll see you next week with another special guest.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Until then, on your journey.