Navy EOD Operator Tells the Truth About War, Fear & Brotherhood | Pat McKenna Interview

Pat McKenna joins the Not Special Show with Herb and Corrie Thompson for a raw, unfiltered conversation about Navy EOD, war stories, overcoming adversity, mental toughness, and the journey from a troubled childhood to becoming an elite Explosive Ordnance Disposal operator.

In this episode, Pat shares powerful stories about growing up in Aurora, getting into fights, run-ins with the law, and how 9/11 changed his life, leading him to join the military and eventually become a Navy EOD technician working in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This episode dives deep into combat experiences, IED threats, special operations, resilience, leadership, and the brotherhood formed in war. From near-death moments under fire to the mindset required to operate in high-risk environments, this is a real look at what it takes to survive and thrive in extreme situations.

If you're interested in military stories, Navy EOD, Special Operations, leadership, mental resilience, and real-life transformation, this episode delivers.

“He went from getting arrested… to defusing bombs in war zones.”

Transcript

Why Pat is Special

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Why are you special? Like main people don't say I'm I'm not special. What is made me feel special is just the relationships I've been able to cultivate through life, whether that's friends or teammates, or definitely in the family. I'm just I didn't super blessed with the type of people are in my life. I asked the kids on the way here, I'm like, hey, you think dad's special? And if so, like why? And uh, if you want the truth, you always just ask the kids. Oh, they'll say no. They all got quiet, like nobody had anything to say, and then then my youngest, he's like, Well, you're pretty kick butt dad. And I'm like, fair enough. It's pretty positive feedback. That's way better than being special, I suppose, you know. I think I'm just blessed. I really am, you know, our relationship with you guys, and then you know, plenty of other relationships I had from my childhood, and then you know, definitely the ones I made in the military. There's something about that you go through even if it's an outside of combat, just training and being together. It's uh a bond that nothing really compares to. Yeah. Yeah, we we think you're special.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I mean, and I've met your mom. I know she thinks you're special.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, I'm probably special because my mom, yeah, she she uh she had her hands full with me for sure. Re retired Navy EOD senior chief, correct. Uh we've been in firefights together, so that makes it damn special. You also are still doing some work around the old uh line of the EOD stuff with UXOs and an insurance adjuster, which I don't know, I think it's cool. Uh so I I'm looking forward to this chat. Absolutely. I'm Herb Thompson, a green brain resolutionist.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's Less Harry Half and Branding Expert.

Growing Up Rough in Aurora

The Childhood Moments That Built Courage

First Real Violence & Getting Jumped

Party Raid, Police Chase & Hiding in a Bush

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true. They are special. But like me, you had kind of a rough childhood, but it made you who you are. Yeah. And in the time, you know, I didn't really think of it that way. Like you just it is what it is. It's the way you grow up, and it's a unique place. Early on, childhood, I would say elementary school. Um, first I grew up in Aurora, which is a spot outside of Denver. Most people know outside of uh Denver. And most people know of it because like the uh the movie theater shooting and then the problems with the Venezuelans getting in the apartment complexes. But at younger age, you know, I definitely didn't have a lot of exposure to it. It was I hung out and this kind of goes full circle. I hung out with my brother who's about four years older than me and his friends. Uh, so we would go and like get wood to build ramps and uh have like BB gun wars. And when you're you know four years younger than everyone else, it would be like, I was always first hitting these ramps. And I remember pedaling tears, the some of these ramps on my bike, and I never want to do it. But then older kids would be like, Oh, if you don't do it, you're gonna be a weenie, and like we use different words in the 80s, yeah. Much different words. I'm like, well, I don't want to be one of those, you know, so I'd always go first, and then sometimes I was successful. Other times it might get a little bit of road rash, and uh uh, but it I those things just helped make me who I am. And uh one thing that I really remember, like we had BB gun wars all the time, and we tried to have rules like no more than two or three pumps, so yeah, someone else click, and then everybody else would click. And we had this like little green electrical box that we would use for cover, and uh my brother would always have me do this sprint from the green box down the hill to the side of the house. And once again, I remember like those, like the you had like tears in your eyes and the sick feeling in your stomach, and I'd do that sprint, and BBs would be like pinging right behind me, and so I was drawing cover so like my brother and the rest of our team could, you know, you know, try to take out the guys on the other side. And it goes full circle. And it was actually one of the times with you we brought in QRF. I the two guys that came in, yeah. Yeah, the two guys that were just with me and just both got shot, so we brought them back to Medivac, and then we the uh some team three guys came in, QRF, and they were over at this other little wall, and I was sitting behind this smaller wall, and it was just getting lit up with PKM fire, and they're like waving me over, and I had that little sick feeling in my stomach again, you know what I mean? Like we were a little kid, you're like, oh god, I don't want to do this. And uh I made the sprint and it worked out just fine. So I like to think you know, those parts of the childhood just uh helped prepare me for what I did in the future. Sixth grade, I would say, is when you know I started getting more exposure to kind of what was going on around me. You know, there was a lot of fighting, of course, um, like drugs and you know, some gang influence. So you got a lot of people were coming out of California and New York. Like I guys I hung out with were from like some of them from like Compton or Norwalk, and you had unfortunately like those problems come along. So in sixth grade, I was walking, it's so funny now. I was walking home from school and I got jumped for the first time uh for being white, but I like in and being dumb, I suppose, because someone was like, hey, come down here, hey, like my hina likes you, and so I'm like sixth grade, she's like cute Latina chick, eighth grader. And I'm like, Yeah, damn right she does, you know. Come walking on down. Ah, she didn't like me. I feel like that was like it was a pivotal, uh pivotal moment in my life. It was like like start to see the harsh realities of just people, right? It had nothing to do with race or cool, like it has to do with like their upbringing and their culture, the culture of Aurora during that time. And I actually wrote about this in sociology too, because my thesis was that I I recommended that everybody should have to give like two years of some sort of public service. And not only do I think it's good just to get back to the you know, this amazing country, but it also gets you out of where you grew up, uh, the type of people you've been around, and then you start to meet people from different backgrounds, you know, like whether that's you know, religion or race or anything, we're just the same people from a different part of the country, then you have very very different upbringings and different uh morals and ethics. So we'll if you'll go into it. Yeah. Because you also were working on your physical fitness and your covering concealment, running and hiding in bushes. Yeah, yeah. Do you we we share that? Oh, yeah, yeah. So that was a little later on in high school and like me, because like we'd go out as a teenager, we would drink, and the cops come break it up and we'd run and hide and they just what it was. That's what we did in small town. Yeah. And part of probably some of my uh issues with the upbringing things were just you know, kind of getting tied in with some of the wrong crowds. And I'll start for one in eighth grade, I'd give up, for instance. There was a guy that I used to hang out with, and I actually really liked him, but he he stabbed a kid to death over like a 20-bag of weed in eighth grade, and then he felt so guilty, he he turned himself in like the next day, and I've never like to this day he's in prison. I never saw him again. Wow. Um, so there's just like that's the problem with youth for sure. And you know, it's like at this point in the 90s, like, you know, the uh everybody was like, I listened to like Tupac and other music, and that was just like yeah, that was the culture of what people were doing, and you had the younger kids like that, and then it was almost like that you feel like they feel like they have something to prove, and I think that's what happened to Chris, but still continue to hang out with the wrong crowds later on through like high school, and that that night, this guy's pulled like a robbery and robbed a guy, and then took his car, and they ended up at the same party I was at. So the cops ended up coming to this party because of that situation, and wasn't of drinking age at the point, and not saying I was or wasn't drinking, won't confirm or deny that. But the cops showed up, and you know, it's fairly street smart and saw what was going on. I was the first one over the fence and ran up this other neighborhood, and there was a big bush, and I I dove as deep as I could get in there, and I was cruel and pretty far in this bush. Then now I see everybody else jump in the fence, and everyone's just scattering. This guy, he was actually one of the ones that pulled the arm robbery. He he laid down, he was probably like 400 meters down the block from me. And you know those little bushes that are only like about six inches high. They're like nothing, they're just a little shrub. He tried to lay down flat like that because I mean, he's probably a pretty smart fellow. He's doing an arm robbery and then stealing the guy's car on top of it, and now he's running from the cops and hiding in six inches of bushes. They turn the corner and they saw him pretty fast, and he gets up and takes off sprinting, and he jumps into my bush. Your bush. Yeah, and the cops are like only a couple hundred yards behind him, so obviously they see him. And I'm and I remember like trying to hold my breath there because now the adrenaline's pumping, and this guy, you know, they're all the cops are sword and I have a pop car. He's right in the bush next to you. He's closer to me and Corey. Yeah, and I'm sitting there deep. The cops are already like three feet here, and I'm just uh thinking to myself, like, what are the odds out of all the bushes out here that this dude is gonna jump in my bush? They pulled him out and cops tuned him up a little bit, which is probably a bit deserved, and they took him away. And I sat there just counting my blessings for you know a half hour until things sell out. Might have been longer than that. I do remember Jack Hammering pretty hard. It was cold, it was Colorado, and I was not prepared to go for a run.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Um the cops were probably like stupid kid. They definitely saw you. I don't know. I was pretty much the divorce.

His “Private School”

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I think they would have rolled me out. Yeah, they uh they were not happy campers. The cops are pretty upset. So yeah, that happened. And I think a lot of that stuff in high school is um there was just a lot of fighting almost every weekend. I got into a fight my my second week of my freshman year. This was the interesting moment in my life, and I think it it started me on a further downhill spiral, but also I think it was a blessing in disguise. But there was a guy, he was like some varsity lacrosse player, and I, you know, I'm like 130 pounds as a little freshman, and he this guy was about to fight somebody else, and we're sitting by the cafeteria, and I asked this other person, like, hey, what's going on with this? And he looked at me and he came and just I had never been manhandled like this, you know. But there's a big size difference. He's probably 180, 185 pounds. I'm like a buck 30, and he's pushed me around like a ragdoll. And I didn't even all I'd asked was some guy like what happened. But then I sat on that all night and thought about it, and it was like I'd never had that happen. My pride was hurt, and give you an idea how little I was, I made two fist packs full of pennies, and I came to school the next day, and I just started walking the halls until I saw him and he was walking by. And you know, of course, he's just like mean mug me trying to like punk me out. And once he was in striking distance, as soon as he got, I just started peppering his face, and I had pretty quick hands. What saved me was the like the second time I started making contact, like the pennies exploded. But then, you know, he tackled me and it got broke up. And we were in uh my dad said uh when he showed up to the dean's office, he sees us like pretty much man there, you know, and his face is like beat up, like his eyes are swollen. And uh then I'm sitting there like I have black knuckles, but otherwise I look pretty clean. Uh and I cleaned up. I had a little bit of a black nose, but it cleaned up pretty quick. And I think I think that put a target on my back at that point because then I was just constantly getting fights, and my friends, everybody was uh, you know, they would throw down for sure. And that was just what would happen at the parties. And so I got into, you know, the weekends were always getting fights and then um kept getting in trouble at school. And then uh eventually they uh politely asked me to go to what I call private school. They politely asked you to not come to school anymore. Yeah, I I joke and say I went to private school, and people are like, didn't you go to alternative schools? And I'm like, Yeah, if you want to be a jerk, invite only, invite only, but it was good. I mean, you had to uphold uh a full-time job. It would just I think it was a huge blessing. The principal there was old Vietnam vet. Uh the recruiters were it would come in, like, oh yeah, like all of us were going to like the jail or the military, they thought. And I installed you never even considered the military at that point. No, it wasn't even on my radar at all.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

I'd had the recruiter shared that you could get in fights every day and go out drinking.

9/11 Changes Everything

Inciting a Riot Made Joining the Navy More Difficult

Life on a Navy Ship & Finding Purpose

Discovering EOD (Bomb Disposal)

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah, but as soon as they were there, like I just I think when you're a young, dumb kid, you know, you're just like you're you're real weary of it. You're like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, why would I want to go to the military? That's silly. And I kept just doing bad things, I suppose, and just going down the wrong path. You know, I had good jobs, and I there was a lot going for it. Because you're a teenager still, like yeah. So I used to work with uh my dad for a bit. He owned a car garage, and part of like I think some of the things in life is um parents had separated, and my dad had his own like things going on, some substance abuse stuff. And yeah, so I think my mom probably focused more on my little sisters and me and my brother, you know. We were we were uh living on kind of wild child, just uh on the street, just like doing whatever we wanted, getting in trouble. And did that lead you to the Navy? I mean, at some point you said, okay, I'm out of here, let's go to the Navy. Yeah, September 11th. Uh yeah, actually, it's kind of funny because I used to mess with the Green Berets when I was in uh a country with the guys, and so when September 11th happened, I was at my mom's house, and uh I thought it was the morning show just being funny. Because they usually run jokes like that. Well, I just didn't really know it because I was in this half sleep and it just the way it was going. I feel you on this because I skipped school, was still in high school the day the Oklahoma City bombing happened. Yeah, and it's on the news, and I was like, what the hell is this? Like, what is going on? And then I'm like, Oh my god, like now I know and understand, but at the moment, the very first moment, I was like, What the heck? Like, yeah, I didn't fully register because I was in half sleep, you know, at that point you're a teenage boy, you don't want to get up. I had work, I worked at uh a motorcycle dealership in the parts department, so I used to ride dirt bikes and racer bikes, and so I was getting ready to have to go over there, and uh, then I was listening, like this is actually happening. My mom came down, we put on the TV, and I watched second plane like hit the towers, and I was like, there's I it was absolutely gone. Something in my stomach told me it was like I had with no desire to ever be in the military, and that happened. And instead of going to work, I went straight to an army recruiter. Really? Yeah, I told him I was like, I want to be special forces. I'm like, I have no idea what that really means. Army recruiter blew that one. Oh, he well, yeah, what a fumble. He was a bit of a bro, huh? He was like, Well, I really appreciate what you guys what you're doing here. He's like, it'll take 18 months to make it through training, and by that time, all this is gonna be said and done. So he's like, I just recommend you think about this. Like, and I did. I sat on it for a little bit, and my mom got my ear and pushed me to go to college. So then I went up to college up in Leadville. And about a year and a half, almost through the day, the war's kicked off, and now I'm watching on TV and it's Marines going to war that I saw, right? When they're showing like Fox and CNN. In Iraq and Afghanistan. Yeah, it was kicking off. Afghan was already going, but Iraq kicked off like March of 03. And uh, so I dropped out of college and told my mom I wanted to join the military. At that point, I wanted to be a Marine because that's what I was seeing on TV. I just had this urge to, you know, to go to war and fight. Ultimately, I wanted to be a fireman in Denver. That's what I was going for in school, was to, you know, go for fire science and get on the fire department. And my mom begged me not to be a Marine. She is like, please don't be a Marine. And I'm glad she won on that discussion. She did, and I'll say it kind of goes full circle. I I got to connect with the Marines and see what they're about quite a bit. So I had heard about Navy Corpsmen and they're the medics for the Marine Corps infantry. And so I asked my mom, like, well, what do you think about the Navy? And she's like, that would be perfect because she's a picture of me to be on a ship. Yeah. I was like, all right, I'm gonna join the Navy, mom. So I went to a Navy recruiter, and I wasn't I rightfully didn't just start exposing all the things I was gonna need a waiver for right off the bat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, by the way, there's all my skeletons in the closet. And Uncle Sam doesn't look at what happens when you walk out of court, they look at what your original charge was. So I had some assaults, I had a DUI on a four-wheeler, I had uh incite in a riot, like yeah, it's a silly story, it's not that good, but I guess we could probably talk about it. Like inciting a riot? That was weird. I didn't end up with it. I just ended up, I think, with a public intoxication. Um I can see it though, I can see it. Yeah, but it was a loving. Like it's actually, I feel embarrassed telling the story. So it was New Year's of 2001, and we had the ball drop going on down at Denver. So me and my little hoodlin friends grabbed backpacks and threw it, filled it with like beer and stuff, and we go down there, and you know, I think there's 300,000 people downtown. If you back up just a few years when the Denver Broncos won uh the Super Bowl, like back in the way, it's like when he won them, yeah. Well, yeah, but the city it rioted. Like people were flipping cars, like we went down there by my buddy Maddie, rest of soul, he's dead now, but he caught like a tear gas cancer in the chest. So I saw like what can happen when you know the there's a little bit of an uproar. But uh, so we're cutting through the crowd, and it's about 10 o'clock at night, and I see a cop that grabbed my friend, and he had a beer in his hand, and I see they see me, and now I'm trying to weave through the crowd, you know, like a ninja with my my ninja skills that I did not have. So the cop comes and grabs me by my arm, and as I'm turning around, I kind of had a beer ball in my hand and kind of flicked it, and it shattered. It was not slick, and he's like, What did you do that for? And I was like, Do what, man? And he's like, Oh, is that the game we're on due, you know? And so he went to arrest me and I tried to get the crowd to rise up and protect me, like, yeah, leave him alone. But it was only 10 o'clock at night, and everybody was sober. Uh, so they just stared at me. Is actually there's more to it. And they got you, they charge you for insight in the riot. That was like the initial, yeah. And as soon as we were walking, I was real cool. I was like, hey, officer, I'm sorry. Like, I thought if I started an opera people start pushing a little bit, I might be able to get away. It's New Year's, I want to hang out with my friends and go chase girls, dude. And uh he he got it, and he actually the next morning is what helped me. And the paddy wagon story is kind of interesting, and I had to pee really bad because I'm drinking beer, right? And there's a female officer in the front seat, and so I'm sitting in the back of this paddy wagon, and I was like, ma'am, I I have to use a bathroom so bad, please, you know. And she's like, Shut up. And I'm like, I mean, I get it. She's um she's dealing with douchebags all the time, and I'm the douchebag now in the back. Um, so I'm like, keep asking her. She's like, shut I said, shut up. So this other guy comes in, arrests number two that night. I think there was 23 that night. I was number one. This guy's number two. You were number overachieving. I was number one. Ah, so number two gets in, and I'm like, man, like now, there's another officer here, please. Like, you can handcuff me the urinal. And she's like, shut up, you know, and this guy loses his mind. And he was probably close to my age, he's probably 20 years old. And he starts calling her a female dog and kicking the the cage, and then he starts he starts peeing. So there's chaos going here. Kind of roll over and pee in the corner of the paddy wagon, and they open up, they're like using his backpack to clean up the piss in the back of the paddy wagon, and then we all go to jail, and I'm looking out my uh my cell window with I could see the clock tower, but I couldn't see where the hands were, you know. And I was I was I was in a down spot. I wasn't feeling very proud of myself at this point. And then I could hear like the crowd like kick off, and I knew it was midnight. Oh, you could hear New Year's gone. Yeah, but I didn't know I couldn't see where the hands were, but I could hear when everyone was cheering. I was like, okay, it's midnight. And next morning you go, like I had to go in front of the judge and this other guy that went in front of me, and they made it seem, and I don't know what he originally got arrested for, but it made it seem like he was out, like you know, showing his private parts to people, and I'm pretty sure it was what happened in the paddy wagon, and you know, so I just feel super blessed. I mean, that could have been me, right? I could have peed the paddy wagon and then caught another charge. But the the officer was real sweet, like, and we went to the judge, like, hey, you know, he's very remorseful what happened. I think he'd just being a young, dumb kid, like we talked about it, and they give me like a I think a public intoxication. Like a lesser charge, and the Navy gave you waivers so you could get in. Yeah, well, I I kind of had to ease one at a time, you know, because I had a couple little things going on, and then I remember my recruiter would call me, it's just like, you know, like what like that like, did you get arrested? New Year's and like oh yeah, like I forgot to tell you about that one. Yeah, so and I'm glad because uh she was such a cool recruiter, and uh uh uh it'll go full circle, right? Right. So now because of my police record, two things have it almost held me up on. So the first one it got me, and she's like, You can't be a corpsman, really, yeah. And I think it was like because I had got charged with assault and I got I got off of it, and so there's like just some weird studies the Navy did of like, you know, what personality traits are good for what rates, and so she went on to be a corpsman. My uh my my buddy No offense, but I could see Yeah, I got a cycle a little bit. No one knew now for years, I could see why that was probably. Yeah, but I like I think God was pointing me in the right direction where he wanted me to go. So I had a buddy that joined the Navy uh right around the same time, but he had shipped off already, and he went in. You can come in undesignated without a job in the Navy. Yeah, you just like yeah, 10 out of 10 don't recommend. Yeah, it's like yeah, so he in his infinite wisdom told me he's like, Pat, your recruiter's lying to you. You can do whatever you want, you can just come in undesignated, get in Navy, and then you just strike any job that you want. So I was like, What? And I told my recruiter, she goes, No, absolutely not. She said, With your ASVAB scores, like like you are not going undesignated. Like, we send people undesignated that have problems, you know, passing this uh test. And you know, being a stubborn uh kid, I was like, Well, if you don't send me, I'm not going. And she was like, Well, please, like, at least be like an airman in the Navy, and and that's what I did. And I came in undesignated, went through it was just like a three-week thing after boot camp, and then they're like So really you go through boot camp and then just you go to this little school, like if you're a deck seaman, they call them, like you you're probably scratching paint and uh repainting, like you're just you're low man on totem pole on a ship for sure. I went airman, it was supposed to be a little better, and it worked out better for me and just sheer luck. I got onto the ship, they were already actually deployed, so they flew me out to Bahrain, and then I hopped on the Hilo out too as uh as LHA as an amphib. It's called the USS Bellawood. So I got on the Bella Wood and Alman designated airman, and I the LPO of the weapons department, they're moving me in weapons department. So like the head and non-commissioned officer of the weapons department, yeah. Or he was like uh he's a E6, whatever LPO, we call it a first class. Um, they're just below a chief, like it's uh milestone for him to make chief. Yeah, so him, he's kind of walking me around, showing me around a ship, and I was on the go with the they're called AOs, like aviation ordinance men, they deal with all the bombs for the planes, everything. Well, he was a gunner's mate, and they deal more with small arms and armory, but they got grouped into weapons department, and he used to race motocross, and uh, so him and I started talking dirt bikes, and he goes, Do you like guns? And I'm like, Oh, shoot, who don't? You know, and he's like, How about you come work in armory? And so I came and I worked in armory, which was incredible compared to what everybody else was doing, especially as an undesignated uh sailor. And you know, I had a good work ethic. I I definitely attribute that to my mom and my dad set those values, started slave driving me pretty young. I was running circles around a lot of the guys during that time, you know, even though they were more senior, but I was you know, I was early 20s at this point, so I had I had uh you know matured quite a bit. These guys would come down the armory to get their guns, and there was another GM in the armory who's like, hey Pat, you want to help me clean EOD's guns? Like, look at these things, they're so cool. And I'm like, No, I'm not cleaning some other man's gun like those dudes can come down here and clean their own guns. But we helped we could controlled all their demo and everything, and the wars are going on at this point. We're in the golf role with the chief and a couple of his guys, and we go to the to the mag to pull some demo for them because they're about to go on an op. And I was like, who are you guys anyway? You know, and they are like, Yeah, we're Navy OD, and they're just really cool. So that was your first interaction. That was my first interaction. And I was like, What do you what do you guys do? Like, well, well, there are big things right now. It's IEDs are super heavy, and we diffuse IEDs or underwater mines or anything chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear explosive. And I seriously remember things in my head, like, that's a little disgusting, man. Like, gross. And I thought about that less than five minutes as I was walking down, and something hit me, and it was like, I think I want to do this. So that was my plan, and I came up with this plan to go Navy OD and you know have to go through like prep. There's a screener and everything. Because I came in undesignated. I you can strike a job, and I struck GM because I was working in the armory. What's GM? Uh Gunner's Mate, so they were like the armor. Armor's like not as advanced as like 18 Bravo, but they're like your weapons guys. My senior chief, he used to work with Navy EOD, and he told me he's like, Hey Pat, like I know you're putting together a package here. I want you to go to Great Lakes because that's where A schools are. Um, and you can't get an advanced school unless you have the basic school. And because I I got raided by just taking the test, he was looking out for me and he was like, I want you to go to Great Lakes. You'll be able to finish your EOD package there, do like Gunner's Made A School just in case anything happened, you get hurt or something, you have something to fall back. You actually have a job, skill. You know, I he was looking out, but it didn't work out that well for me. I got up to Great Lakes and I went to the dive motivators as for like the SEAL teams, like EOD, diver, SWIC in the Navy. They were like, How long are you here for? And it's like, I'm here for six weeks, petty officer. And they're like, You're going back to the fleet. And oh man, my heart was crushed. Like you thought you were on a pathway. I thought it was it, like it was on hit this A school, the motivators are up here, and then I could just take my screener up here, get orders, and go straight to like you know, dive school and EOD school. And yeah, they didn't. They were like, You're going back to the regular Navy. And one of the gunners mate chiefs, I was talking with him. He was like, Look, the the Navy's forming up this thing called the Riverines, like it was like brownwater navy in Vietnam, and then the Marine Corps took it over for a bit, and then Navy was taking him back. And he's like, My buddy's a special programs detailer, we're looking for moti motivated guys. Um, would you be interested in that? And I don't know. The ship is great for some people, it wasn't great for me. Um, my when I first got on the case. I can see what I could see that. Yeah, yeah. When I first got on there, like because they were already deployed, I was so ecstatic. I'm like, I made the best decision that I've ever made in my life. I work out, I sit out in a catwalk, drink a protein shake, and watch the like sunset or sunrise. I'm like, this is so cool. And about five days later, I'm like, this is very cool. Like I walk in a bad spot. Uh yeah. So I did not want to go back to the ship. Nothing wrong with the ship, you know, for other sailors, it just didn't match my personality. And so it's like, yeah, I'd love to do that. And uh, so I was a plank owner of it, and we stood up the riverine squadron. Um, that took me to a deployment into Iraq. Iraq, right? Yeah. Uh it was sweet. So we were up in MF West and stayed in all the way along the Euphrates, where it bounced along, like Hadith, Rawa, Rayana, Al Qaim, all the way up to the Syrian border.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

You were EOD at this point? Or not yet. Not yet. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

This is what he him and Mike right? Yeah, so a buddy of mine uh we met there as fleet guys, and we came up with this plan. Um, I knew he wanted to go be a SEAL, and I wanted to go be O D, and we came up with a plan that we would go off and do our programs and then you know, ideally meet back up and operate together was our initial plan. So we did that on the other.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

I mean, kind of worked out.

He Lied to His Mom About the Danger

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I mean, it really didn't saw me at your retirement. Like we both made it successfully through our programs, which statistically that probably shouldn't have happened. And we remained tight. We never got to like be on the same like operations or anything together.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

But meeting your mom, she shared with us that at your retirement that her anticipation of you joining the Navy was that you were going to be on a ship. And she said, to her recollection, you know, that was a fairly safe opportunity for you. So she was pretty pumped about that. Yeah. So can you tell us the story about how your mom found out?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Uh-huh. Yeah, that so that was what I sold her instead of being a marine in my mind was I'd be a corpsman and then just lie to her, you know, like a good son and just tell her I was on a ship, you know, shipping paint and painting. And then, you know, when I I even when I went EOD, I continued to just tell her as she didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

No, he kept lying to her.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah. And then uh she eventually found out, and I had just got uh like a$90,000 reenlistment bonus. And so I um I took her to Australia for two weeks, diving to Great Barrier Reefs.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

So what she told me was she said something about your address or contacting you, your phone number, something had changed, either your address or your phone number. And she said, Pat, that's Virginia Beach.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Why are you in Virginia Beach?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah, and then I think she like looked up Little Creek. There's not there's a couple ships there, there's not many. And uh so my story didn't really align anything.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

It wasn't sinking anymore.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Your mama cut up on your BS. And I was, you know, trying to smooth it over.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah, just smooth it over. You took her to the Barrier Reef, Great Barrier Reef.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

We went diving for two weeks and I just tried to convince her that it's not as dangerous as they say it is, and you know, like they're not. He was lying.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah. Oh, she knew she was.

The Brutal EOD Pipeline

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Like, so she, yeah, I think that probably caused some undue stress on her, and probably more stress too, because um it wasn't too long after that was our deployment together. And you know, we had a nine-man platoon, and out of the nine men, one guy got shot, one lost a leg, and one lost all four of his limbs. So I think she figured out pretty quick that I was uh not being forthcoming with information once again, and it was a little bit a little bit dangerous, yeah. Yeah, but get in that pathway. Hey, right now, subscribe, click the little button down there, hear more great stories from great guests next week and the weeks beyond. What was that Navy OD pipeline like? Because it's pretty tough. Like, and I'm saying this genuinely, though you know how I feel about it. It's like you know, that I think every selection process probably has it its, you know, part where people are like, Oh yeah, this was hard. Things have changed too since I went through as well. Uh, so now like they have a preparatory course up in Chicago. I still don't think it's a preparatory course, and it wasn't like when we went through, it was more of like before we send them down to Panama City to dive school, well, we figure out who's gonna quit in the water here. Um, so it was a bit of grind. If you aren't comfortable in water, it's just you gotta go dive school, yeah. Like, not fun diving, like military diving. Yeah, so you know, and prep like with the water stuff, you're you're treading with weight, over-unders were good, so you line up on either side of the pool. If you're on this side, your your freestyle swim over the top on this side, your breath holding on the bottom, and then as soon as the last guy reaches the edge of the pool, you know, then you just like go again. So you're kind of getting a hypoxic. Some guys like pass out, but that that quit. And they like tie you up, throw you in your hands, right? You do those there's like some of that, like the drown proofing things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

I was gonna say there's been a number of accidents with that, right? Or am I over the years?

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Over the years, it probably has, but they're pretty good, and that was always in the back of my mind is like, yeah, if I have a shallow water blackout, like I know these dudes are there, yeah. Yeah, if they don't save me, then it's you gotta go through dive school, which is a kick in the you know what freefall also is part of it. Now it's part of the pipeline. So the pipeline is you go to prep, you spend time up there. I forget, I don't know how long it is now, and then you go to dive school in Panama City, Florida. Well, that's like first. That's after prep, yeah. So they try to weed out who they can up at prep because even though like the class in front of me when we got to dive school, I think they had like it was something crazy, like six officers quit on day one. And you know, it's it's a bit of cold shock, especially, you know, we were coming from Illinois, from Great Lakes, Illinois, down to Panama City, Florida in the summer. Uh, and I'm I'm a bit of a sweater, so yeah. So that that part of the heat sucked a little bit, and you know, I wasn't like I wasn't the fastest runner in my class for sure. And I had some gazelles in my class, so that was always difficult. Like you have guys there running, and if I'm you know two minutes slower than you want to run, like I look like I'm way back there. But if I'm you know you're two minutes slower than me on a spin, like you don't look that far away. But I was pretty strong in water. I I definitely went through it's called a mud putt program or PSI. So after I got home from my rack, went to an EOD unit, and they just had me for about six months. What's your training? Yeah, well, just you know, you're just you're a mud putt, whatever it says goes, you know, and you're paying demand and your reputation starts there. There uh small community, and so if you're not pulling your weight, if you're not liked, you know, there's some guys that don't make it through the mud pup program, and sometimes that's just because your character and personality. So, but that really prepared me. I had a guy, Johnny B, and he was an animal. He like I think me and only one other mud pup made it through him. Really? Uh yeah, at the short he was at the short detachment, and he he slimmed down a little bit, but when I met him, he's probably 6'4 or 270, and all he wanted to do was work out. And you know, I I benefited from it. He pushed me and the same with the other guys, and so I I felt really prepared for dive school. Plus, I dove as a you know, as a kid. I already was a qualified diver at older brother, so you know, holding me underwater and dunking me until like I feel like let you up, you get a quick breath, hold you back under. We're all things preparing me. So yeah, so from there, from dive school, you go over to EOD school, and then it starts to turn very academic. Explosive ordnance disposal, take care of bombs. Yeah, it's C B R N E, so throwing another alert. Along our acronym that you and it's chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear explosive. It falls underneath that. Fun stuff. Yeah, then we have to, and that's our our bread and butter. Very academic. Uh, you'll you may take a test one day and have another test the following. Some of them are written tests, others are practical tests. Um, and your practical test could be a two-hour long test, and you do a simple major safety, like you forget the ground before touching something, and it's like 16-point hit, you're out. Yeah, you could be just one little thing like that, right? Not little, because it could kill you in real life. It's like we're we're driving in, like, hey, safety, understanding your safeties, developing threat assessment. And if you fail to test, then you have that you have a retake on that same test the very next day, and you may have another test that you're taking that same day as well. You double tap and you're out. Depending on what happens, like you can go in front of the academic review board, and if you know the panel there thinks that you're worth giving another chance, then they may roll you back into another class and give you another chance. So, and it's a lot of fun. I mean, you're in the south, and you know, dive schools in Panama City, Florida, and then EOD schools in Destin, Florida, white sand beaches, you know, like spring breaks. Like I remember watching, you know, MTV spring break at Club La Vila and Panama City. Young kids don't know what MTV. And I like I remember there was this guy in the Club La Villa pool, and he's like flexing his packs, and there's like beautiful women all around him. I'm like, that guy's the man. And then when I was a little bit older, I'm in dive school at Club La Vila. I'm like, I made it, I made it here. So I bring that up because you know, some off-duty issues that people get, you know, whether that's fights or yeah, you know, alcohol-related incident. And so we lose guys to that. Um, but it's very fast paced, and then once you make it successfully through EOD school, that pipeline itself is like maybe 10 to 12 months. I don't remember exactly. So from there you go roll in this my time, roll in Army Airborne with airborne. Airborne, yeah. Came got static line jumper qualified to then go, yeah. And then we went, then there's a course, like a very basic shooting course, and I think maybe there's some land nav stuff in Mississippi, and then we go to San Diego and you do more advanced shooting, and then all of like the tactical error, fast rope and repelling out of helicopters, casts, and recovery. And then once you make it from there, you finally go to your unit. And then you get to do your actual job after all. Yeah, like you show up and you realize everything that they taught you is essentially, you know, there's it's giving you the basics, but it's to me, it's just kind of showing that you're training bull, and and then during that time, I mean, the wars were on. There's just a lot of warriors that are just in the cages and uh very humbling experience to come through there.

Strong EOD Mentors Prepared Him For Combat

SPEAKER_00 40:18

And did you feel did you feel ready? Like your first deployment, did you feel like that training had adequately prepared you?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah, I had a really strong chief, uh Vinia. You guys met him at my retirement. He uh he trained us hard, he trained us real hard, and he he's a very intense individual. So you know, we had him and then there was a guy, Scotty Dayton, and and uh unfortunately we lost Scotty. He was the first American killed in Syria and uh on Thanksgiving Day. So Scotty, he had just come back from a deployment and they had lost Tyler Trahan, and uh he kind of pulled us the guys, the like newer check-ins in underneath his wing, and really just made sure that like we we were getting every bit of training that we needed to. So between him and Vinny, and there's another guy, OC, like that, these guys are all like rock stars in the community, and I was very lucky to be able to work underneath them, and they handed down a lot of knowledge to me to keep me alive. You have like different, at least from you know, our talking, you could be like us when I attached with special forces, yeah, doing this on the ground, or you could be out like right now in Iran at the Strait of Hormuz, absolutely messing with mines to try to make sure they don't blow up. Yeah, like it's pretty vast. It is, and that's what separates Navy EOD from other services, other services have EOD. For one, is a selection, right? The water is an equalizer that weeds out a lot of people if they if you're not mentally tough, like the water will find it. But underwater mines, right? We're the only service that uh deals with underwater ordinance, and then we're the only service that has you know special operations EOD essentially. So during the high of the wars, guys are you know, always with the sealed teams. There's always Navy EOD guys uh mixed in there. Rangers were getting us, obviously ODAs were getting us, and it just depended on what where you were at, where it was going. And we have conventional teams as well that do more of like conventional EOD stuff during the high of the wars, if you call it conventional. Some of those guys in Iraq, like they they have crazy stories, they're getting 400 IEDs, 500 IEDs on deployment, like busy work getting it on, super different.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

It's like one episode of the FBI show, yeah.

The “Game of Chess” with the Enemy

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Oh yeah. We joke because a lot of the TV shows will show bombs all the time, which in real life, yeah, now in war they do, but not here in the States, thankfully. Yeah, thankfully. It isn't, but the best way they were killing us uh really was with IEDs. And then, you know, it's a bit of a you know, I called it a game of chess, you know, when I was doing village stability operations, there was a bomber in that area, and it felt like a game of cat and mouse. Like I would clear a device, and then I remember like a couple days later, there was other devices targeting my approach that I had taken a few days before. Yeah, um, that was happening all throughout Iraq and Afghanistan. Like they figure out Yeah, they are dummies, they're figuring out, oh, we're taking care of it, and then now we're gonna guys here that are doing it, so we need to target them as well. It's actually uh a bit of a funny story. So we that happened, and I was with the fifth group team, and we were heading back, and someone was like, Oh man, Pat, like he he knows that you're here and like he's targeting you. And I've gotten this like as soon as I got in country, I watched like every season at Dexter in like two weeks. I I actually got emotionally attached to Dexter, and uh someone sort of like. I don't give away like spoil bus or it was like one of the seasons. Uh if you've watched it, like I mean it's been off for like 20 years now.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

I don't think you're gonna hit a spoiler alert.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

So it's all right. So his wife get dies at one point. Like I remember being like so emotionally attached. Like I had to go to my teammate and be like, Dave, have you have you watched season four yet? And it's like, nah, man. I'm like, can you watch that? I feel like I need to have talked with somebody. But when that that guy had said it, there was an episode called the like it was the ice truck killer, right? And this guy had chopped up a Barbie doll and put it in Dexter's freezer. And Dexter was like, you know, most people would be afraid right now. I'm just happy there's somebody out there that wants to play with me. So I told that to the ODA guy. And then we got back to the VSP and Team Sergeant and then pulled me in. They're like, hey man, like you doing all right? Like, do you need to go back to the AOB or anything? And I'm like, nah, man, like, what's going on? What I do. And they're like, well, you made that comment. And I'm like, oh man, yeah, I I don't I don't want to die. Like, that's just the the humor of it, you know. And I'll just kick it out. You make light of it in that moment. What else are you gonna like sit there and cry about it? Like you make light of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Also, you don't want the fear to consume you, you want to push through that. And I think that in some ways is where those jokes come from.

Fear and Chaos and War

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yeah, it's very surreal. Like, I don't ever really remember having any fear on deployment. Like that one, the closest was that time. Of course, when my husband was with you. Yeah, when the PKM gunner had me pinned behind that little rock, you know, and all that was was just like the butterflies to my stomach. Like, this isn't this isn't a good situation. I think usually it happened like after ops, like you know, like after that IED disorders. Yeah, like get back to BSP and like pull like you know, Dave was my teammate and uh to pull him aside, like, hey dude, like fuck, bro. Uh that was the feeling.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

It was like yes, it's trauma processing, and sometimes it takes your mind a moment to like catch up.

Brotherhood in War

Shooting His Shot With Kelly Pickler

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Well, and it's a high too. Like there is a high of war that you get when your life is online and you're losing cat lines. There's nothing like it. There's nothing, and I it's a very common like thing that I see in operators when you talk to them. It's where the guys just start chasing that high, and that's it. You can go do drugs, you can go fast cars, jump out of nothing, it it's not gonna match that. It's so unique. Yeah. Our time together, like I still remember it, like yeah, and that was 14 years ago. I mean, I got goosebumps, but like 14 years ago, we were together in Afghanistan right now getting in gunfights, firefights. Yeah, and I remember the feeling like we would fly out to like villages where insurgencies had uh have a stronghold. Just flying out to have a fight, let's be real. That's what we were doing. Well, we would clear the village and then and I was a believer in village civilian operations. BSO is what they called it, it was very dangerous for Navy UD guys. Uh, we were getting about a third of the guys were getting hurt or killed from like 2011 into 2012. It was and we were happy to have you guys because good, you deal with I don't want to deal with it. I didn't want to deal with it. Like, you go blow up that bomb. I don't want to blow up. Yeah, well, Aaron, uh, one of the Charlies on a different one. Yeah, he uh when I was moving over to the commandos, he was like, Oh man, I don't want to lose you. And and so we spent some time. I trained him, like, hey, first thing you're gonna do, there's a team here, you're gonna call them. You know, if that doesn't work, then just like, well, first I think was like Mark Circumvent. Second thing, call these guys here. Last resort, you're undo the things I'm about to teach you. And I mean that created a lifelong bond between him and I as well. And yeah, it's good. Like I feel bad for the 18 Charlies. There was there's another one. You probably know by my my accent is like I know you're talking about what I used to do. I just go home, grab these jokes, run on out, and now I'm gonna just move them all down the road. And I'm like, Well, I know you're talking about like like that works until it doesn't, you know what I mean? But like, I thought we'd try these two. Briggs a big boy, like he's a handsome man, too. If you're listening, Frank, you're you're with me. But like, and guys were having to deal with that because somebody has to deal with it, and yeah, you didn't so I was very fortunate to get to to go with you guys and do that. But the feeling that I remember when we'd fly out Helos at night in that crisp air, and we land, this was like a this high and this feeling of love that I've I feel like I've never been able to replicate, but like you know, it's kicking up a bunch of dust, so it's browned out, and then Hilo would burn away, and now you have this like eerie silence, and then like no words are said, dudes would step up, and now you're walking over to wherever the target is, and you just see boys on nods, and there's just this feeling of love, like you know, I got them, and you know, that I know they got my back. Yeah, it was real, you know, me and Jeremy spent a lot of time our element together. And Jeremy's coming on once he's officially retired in a few couple months. He's the man. I think uh the skipper. I like to call you guys his 18 alpha, the captain uh skipper because people like nautical terms, but I think he named us like Kill Squad, me and Jeremy and old BDB. Uh yeah, I don't know if Australia studied out. Yeah, there's a unique nickname, Burtz. If you're listening out there, man, you are rock star. Yeah, rock star of an infantry guy. Third ID, right? I think. Yeah. Third ID. But yeah, so in that kind of rolls us in uh like our time together and very kinetic. I you know, we had some long gun fights, uh, for sure. And I I thought we were doing really good work with the commandos. I love the Afghan commandos, uh, you know, they were war fighters, especially had one with like good company leadership, like uh you could really tell when there was solid leadership and one of the highlights of deployment for sure. Definitely. Hey, if you need speakers uh for an engagement or an event, you need brand partnership opportunity, reach out to us at Liberty Speaks, www.liberty speaks.com. Though I guess you don't need the W's anymore. Uh since Corey informed me. But also on that deployment, I mean, we lost part of the unit working with us. We lost uh Pat Feeks. Yeah. During that seal Sean Carson. Okay, Sean Carson. Sean Carson. But he so we were the East Coast team, they were the West Coast team. And then remember, Pat blew out to go augment, I think it was 17 and back or something. Oh god, yeah. Pat and Chuck. So yeah, I I feel like I have to tell the Kelly Pickler story. Like if there's a story people ask about Afghanistan 2012. Yeah. Kelly Pickler. If you can imagine what that would be like for a strapping young man like Pat. So the way it happened is we we were staged out of a different base that was very, very army, I would say. Like everybody's clean cut and uniforms, and we were fresh out of the villages, like bearded out, guys with long hair. We probably stunk, you know. We were just we were staging to do like a month offering. Kind of like we are right now, just dirty. Yeah, yeah. You just can't smell this right now. It's not scratch and sniff. Uh so we we get to Camp Mike Span, which was named after the first uh CIA guy that lost his life in Afghanistan. And there's a poster, I didn't even know who Kelly Pickler was, but there is a poster up, I think I I still remember the date. This was May 26th of 2012, I believe. So it's almost exactly 14 years ago. Yeah, but on this one for the Kelly Pickler weekend, so Pat and Chuck, you know, so there were there's like a bit of a rivalry, not a real rivalry, but like for one Army Navy, right? So it was all fifth group ODA guys that were running the you know the commando mission. And we had four Navy guys, two SEALs and two Navy EOD guys. So our SEALs were our snipers. So they're like, oh Pat, like Kelly Pickers only be here tonight. They're like, you should throw an IED underneath the stage, and I was like, Yeah, and I'll go like render it safe, and you know, me and her will get married and live happily ever after. Like, just like just guy talk, like just run our mouths, like we always do. And I was like, I I actually have a really good idea. They were doing construction on base, so I went and Which already tells me it was actually it was a pretty good idea. It's not my good, it's pretty debatable. So there was rules of caution tape over by the construction site. So now we go into they had the stage and they had this little army sergeant holding security, and we're in civilian clothes. And I come up and like, hey man, where do you where do you want us? And it's like, who are you? I was like, uh, we're Kelly's personal security. We're just uh we're here to set up for tonight, you know, just make sure like we have a spot. And he's like, Oh man, nobody told me you guys were coming. I was like, Don't worry about it, man. We're just gonna mark a spot. I'll be all right. By a spot, it was about a 20-foot by 20 foot section, dead center of the stage. And what we wanted was when all the SF guys showed up, all the army guys, us Navy guys, like us four Navy guys, we sit in this little VIP section, just you know, just to fuel the rivalry, you know. So we get back for that the concert that night, and all the caution takes down. And we're like, oh god, they're on to us. So we're kind of weaving our way through the crowd, and that little sergeant comes up and is like, hey Pat, we we talked to Kelly, and she just wants you right there on stage. And I'm like, well, if that's what Kelly Pickler wants, that's what she gets. So yeah, right. So now we're sitting on stage, and like Kelly Pickler is like putting her arm around us and like singing to us, and you know, I haven't smelled a woman in eight months, I feel like at that point. Yeah, I don't know how deep I want to go into some of these details on there. Uh but ultimately, yeah. I was gonna have her come hang out with us out at the compound. I'll leave that. Nothing like crazy. But you gotta see the picture because there's like three dudes super happy. And Pat Feeks is yeah, that's Pat. Like, dude, Kelly Pickler on stage. Like, come on, bro. Mind you, I think I was somewhere drinking chai with like commandos at this point. I didn't even know this went on. Yeah, I'd probably most people like like what's this concert? I wouldn't have gone to it, you know. Like I wasn't looking for MW.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

You were on a different mission.

The Intense Combat Deployment

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Yeah, like we were there, like guys are eating, working out, re resting, refitting, because we're going out on ops for a few days at a time, you know, humping mountains and carrying gear, and you know, they're we were getting some good gun fights. But I can finish the story. Kelly Pickler did not fall in love with any of you, and she went on with her career, and you went on with your career. Yeah, well, she probably fell in love with me. Let's say Kelly, let's be real. I'll tell Bruno that's you guys can cut out. Brittany knows Kelly Pickler's story. Oh, I know. So I I I'll let you cut it out if you want, if you don't think it's appropriate. So what happened was she was talking about like, oh, like, I wish I had moonshine, and like talking in the crowd, and then she took a break. So then she was like talking to us, and I'm like, hey, like, I don't have any moonshine or anything, but I do have some stuff if you want to come hang out with us, like after. And she was like, Yeah, shoot. Yeah, she's like, Cool, like I'm doing autographs after this. Like, why don't you guys just get to the back of the line? And then God, it's so bad. Like, when you get to the front, I'll just go hang out with you. I'm like, okay. Well, then there's a sergeant major on the other side of the stage. Old C the crust is he's giving me sergeant major eyes like through my school. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, did this guy hear me? And I'm just a piece of crap. You know, I just I'm gonna get everybody in trouble because I'm I'm an idiot, and I think it would be fun to go hang out with Kelly Pickler. So nothing came of it, and now we're in line to get autographs with Kelly. And here comes the sergeant major, and it came back again, and he's like, Are you with the commandos? And now, like, I almost I wanted like pee myself in fear, like faces tingling. And I'm like, I am the biggest piece of crap in the world. Like, I just got our compound rated because I'm an idiot and all these things, and I'm like, Yeah, and and he goes, Hey, like we have these uh two sue side bombers out in town. Um, for the like the regular army, it's like the act of God to be able to action, something like that. And he was like, Can you guys do it? And I'm like, I mean, I have the ability, not definitely not the authority. So we call it we call the skipper. Quite frankly, I kind of focus on a task here. Yeah, I'm like, hey bro, we're trying to hang with Kelly Pickler, I'm gonna wait for another day. Work and voice, yeah. Wait, Kelly's here. So yeah, we didn't end up hanging out with Kelly. The skipper rounded us up. We got uh a group of guys, and we went out in town and we rolled up these two individuals, and then we came back. I need to back up a little bit to like really tie this in and add to the like the SEAL Navy OD rivalry. So when we were having these conversations, Pat and Chuck were like, Oh, yeah, plus we had Axa Balor just come out, and like Navy SEALs had really good rapport. Yeah, plus you guys were holding security for that that EOD guy that killed bin Laden. Because this is you know, right not long after how you're talking about the shooter is so they're like, shut up. And I'm like, Yeah, dude, you guys haven't heard it. Everybody on the East Coast knows it. The yeah, because they're at West Coast free seals, is like everybody on the East Coast knows the story. Number one man was a frog and shot the girl in the leg, and number two man was EOD and cleaned it up. And they're like, No way. And I'm like, Oh yeah, bro, this is what it happens, you know. So now that was earlier on, we had the Kelly Pickler concert, and now we went out and rolled out those suicide bombers, got home, ate that breakfast time, ate breakfast, went to bed, and then that night we were we had a big op. The op with those bunkered shooters in the house with the RPGs. Like it got really hairy. We definitely lost some cat lives on this one. I mean, I don't know how far we want to go into it, but like they were shot out an RPG. One fin didn't open up, and it went to hit one of our friends here. Um hand of God, yeah. And right before it's about to hit him, like curved and hit the wall. Takes a 90-degree turn going at him right before it gets to him, turns 90 degrees, goes like that.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

And it's not funny, but to hear him tell the story and hear him, he said that he made eye contact and it was like he said, I just know it was coming for in between my eyes, you know, and then to see it pivot 90 degrees what a what an extra.

Navy Retirement

SPEAKER_01 58:58

We had ISR footage, so we were able to watch like the recordings of this gunfight and see how close it actually was. It was it was scary close. Wow. We ended up stacking. This is where like eventually it gets funny again, uh less serious. But then we were stacking up to make entry on this uh building, and they rolled out a couple grenades, one went off in the doorway, and we were stacked, and it went the doorway came out, fragged the number one man in the calf, which he was a commando. He was rolling. We like hit the door, put down suppressive fire on them. We uh regrouped. I'll share that. I won't get into the what I was tafing up. Remember, I was taping up instead. I had one idea of how we could solve this problem. We ended up going a different route. I still think that idea would have worked, but hindsight, not understanding the concerns of it. But in this chaos, you know, our snipers were Pat and Chuck, and they're caught down and they're like, hey, Pat, like this Pat, like you have the two world's best Navy snipers up here. And I agree with it, Pat and Chuck. I love you guys, man. I'm like, oh gee, thanks, Navy SEAL's like holding security for EOD once again, like just a rivalry, and they got all quiet, and then like the next day we're eating breakfast, and Pat was like, Man, first pass like in and on down there, and I'm like, I'm just looking through glass and like found out an EOD guy killed bin Laden, like, what that's man, like and uh yeah, like so, and unfortunately, you know, we lost Pat on that deployment, never got to tell him the truth, but I'm sure he found out the truth before I did as to what what really happened on that operation, and just an amazing soul, both of those guys, and we just had a really good crew with that that uh commando crew that we had going on, just perfect personalities. We never had drama, everybody was carrying their weight, everybody was a war fighter, and by far the highlight of any deployment I ever had. I mean, all that you keep going on in your career, and then you retire. And we got to go to your retirement ceremony, which was I was blown away. Your retirement ceremony was amazing, like just the honor tradition of the Navy and how they recognize you and your unit of retiring. I just like goosebumps again, like it was awesome. Yeah, and uh, I think the way we got reconnected, it was actually through Pat and Chuck. Yep. So I was doing some medical treatment cross paths with the SEAL that we were with, and he told me they did uh the Feeks family did a memorial annually, and that's then we got to link up again. Oh, yeah, I was here. I saw saw you walking in, and I think it's been a bromance again ever since again, big teddy bear hug. What was that retirement like for you there? Because I mean you've gone through some stuff. I mean, and uh your yeah, your body's gone through some stuff. I got choked up right as I got to the podium. I didn't think that was gonna happen, and I think it's surreal. There's just a lot of things that took place in the career, and not just like me, but just the community as a whole. Uh all of the communities during the GWA, you know, guys were getting it on beat up, they were getting it on, dudes were getting wounded, guys were dying, and other people, you know, they were just carrying the burdens of the war, or you know, the families for sure, uh, of being gone a lot. And it was just such a blessing to be Navy O D. It really was. And most people don't even know what it is. What it is, yeah. I like it, you know. It's getting exposed more. Usually they just group us in and just think you're a SEAL, so which is which is good if you get in a fight on Shore Drive. Yeah, and then they just think it was some Navy SEAL. I think it's just the people, you know. I called it the Irish family when I was a team chief. You you become a family. Um, we can fight amongst each other, but then outside of that, it's just it's a bond. And putting a close to that chapter, I think it was time dealing with some medical stuff. I got lung disease from some sort of toxic exposure, and you know, at a certain from like your deployment, I mean from your service, right? Yeah, but that's it. All I mean done with a lot of explosions. I was gonna say a lot. We had yeah, we got some good work in, you know. I I think there's always other people, so I'm I'm always weary to be like, oh, I got a lot of this. I will tell you this, more than the average person watching times a thousand. Yeah, yeah. We had some we got some good demo on for sure. And this takes a toll on you. I mean it did. For we do instructor duty as well, and one of my instructor duties, I was an AirOps instructor and teaching all of you know what you guys would call aerosols, all the fast rope and repelling, plus parachuting, free fall parachuting. Because you got what over a thousand jumps? Yeah, I think I stopped counting somewhere at around 1100, you know, because that's as an instructor. Sometimes you're knocking out 15. I think I showed up to be a an instructor with probably 70 some jumps, and within a year I had over 500. Yeah, they're just hitting with fire hose. You gotta get over 500 against qualls. Yeah, they're hiring professional skydivers to come jump with us and canopy coaches. Anna Betts, yeah, one of our speakers. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

Yeah, she trained a lot of uh military guys, yeah.

Repairing Physical and Metal Damage

Ibogaine in Mexico

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

She's a little like I don't mean this drug driver, but she's a very small woman. Okay, actually, not very small, I guess. But compared to you, and like yeah, that was uh they had a girl, Kim uh Winslow is who they flew down to Florida with me to just beat me up in the sky, and I think she's definitely one of the like top ten female skydivers in the world, and super humbling. Uh yeah, yeah, you know, most of us just try to you know grind through it and just try to strong arm it, and you're not doing that in the sky. You have to have some finesse. But some of your kind of dealing, like you said, you have the the toxic stuff in your lungs, my words, not medical terms, some of your brain stuff and all that, you end up going to Mexico, right? Yeah, would you be willing to share that just because I think it's important, I think it's important for guys. So towards like the end of the career, I think most people have it and you just kind of self-medicate, ignore it, hope it goes away. It's I think probably what it allows us to be successful in our careers is being able to compartmentalize. But the lung stuff first started in like 2018. My training. Yeah. And I got a cold while we were training, and then I had a dry cough that never went away. And then when COVID hit, I felt like bubble boy. I was definitely much more aware of how often I was coughing. So I got that diagnosed and really sent me on the path of starting to take care of myself medically. I got connected with uh Debbie Lee with America's Mighty Warriors. Yeah, her son, Mark Lee's first name. Shout out to Debbie, Mama Lee. Mama Lee. Yeah, she was a blessing. So she got me doing hyperbaric treatments, and I think at that point. I started doing the Twilight Tour where I was at, you know, shore duty doing regional response for explosive threats. And uh you have a lot more time on your hands. And so, you know, when the music stops, it feels like you start to to see what wounds need to be licked. And my insomnia was really bad and I self-medicated. I would usually get the family to bed and then pour glasses of whiskey until I could get myself to sleep. Had like all the TBI issues, a lot of cognitive issues. The hyperbaric chamber helped a lot with that. And then um I went with Mission Within, is what it's called. Shout out to Gigi for getting me into there. I appreciate you, Gigi. And so I went down to Mexico and I did Ibogaine and Five MeO. Um, it's not, yeah. Just signed a thing today to increase studies for Ibogaine to be used here in the States.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Or at least it was just announced today.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Yeah, today. So dudes don't have to go to Mexico like you did. I did iboga or they'll call it ibogaine, is uh it's a route out of Africa, and it's uh probably one of the I think it is the strongest lucigenic. It's not bro science and not just a bunch of like you know, us running around in our underwear. Not back to the Aurora or like uh slinging out there, what was it, the young guns where they're like eating peyote on the mountain? It wasn't like giving us guns, so it wasn't like that. It's very is very professional. Like you're you see a cardiologist, you get EKGs, there's nurses there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

It's like a clinical setting, a true clinical setting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Yeah, we have a house, it's uh everything is set up for it to just be a peaceful experience. My cohort, the nice thing is, you know, everybody's there because uh we have something going on. And so, you know, you'll do a small group, we kind of talk about our intentions and what we're struggling with, do a ceremony, and then you you do the the IBE game. The psychologist there said you may not hallucinate, but even if you don't hallucinate, the medicine's still doing its work and it creates new neuroplasticity and uh neuropathways in your brain. So that definitely helps with TBI issues that guys are having. It made you trip out. Yeah, I don't know how that's possible. I believe him because he's a very intelligent uh individual, but that was what he told us. But I definitely hallucinated and I went to the spirit world. It was a sledgehammer. A lot of guys had pretty like peaceful experiences. Like, oh man, it was sweet. This when we were talking the next day. Mine was not. You're like, mine was super demonic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think it probably meant anything, it was just the experience that I saw, but the medicine's working no matter what. One of the more powerful things, too, that I I think of that uh medicine is it's getting people off of heroin, yeah, one time, like not methadone the rest of your life, which heroin is like super addictive. Like yeah, and my intentions there is I I wanted to to work with some of the cognitive issues and insomnia that I had going on, and I cut out nicotine, I quit cut out caffeine, I cut out alcohol, I brought caffeine back. I like my cup of coffee in the morning. Um I mean it changed your life. I mean for the better, yeah. I like the alcohol was just done. I had no desire to drink. I'll drink still now, like occasionally, but probably saved your marriage. I was gonna say definitely, definitely saved my marriage, and I I have uh uh I'll get to that. I'll get down a little bit further. I'll finish being in Mexico. So you do the IBGAIN and on what we were talking about. So in my cohort, there was a couple guys that they went to, I think it was the University of Texas, it was one of the universities in Texas. They did like neuropsych testing, a bunch of imagerying and blood work, and then they came down and they did iBegain with us, and then afterwards they went back to the stuff. And they so they were spearheading a lot. I know, I think Stanford was doing a lot as well of you know, the benefits of doing it. For the people that weren't part of that study, we also did what they call the toad. Um, it's a five MeO DMT. What is it? It's a toad poison, um, but you inhale it like the little colored frog toads? Yeah, I don't know. Or like toads like part blood, you mean toad like frog ribbon. Yeah, it's a toad and it's a venom that they secrete, they they harvest it, they don't hurt the toad with it or anything, and then it's five MeO DMT, and it's very spiritual for me. Um more so than even the the I begin was very demonic, but that like that was just me, I think, whatever was going on, I suppose. My brain wanted me to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

What was your thought process like before that experience? Did you feel guilt, or did you feel like you weren't like you were carrying these demons in a way where you were judging yourself potentially, or like you wouldn't get God's grace?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

Yeah, I don't know if it felt that way, but like after that experience, I think you know, it was probably subconsciously in there when I talked to Jesus through it. Um I sent your hesitation now. Like the Jesus, it was Jesus, it was not Jesus in Mexico, but no, not Jesus, yeah. No, it was Jesus is what like my vision was, and some people describe the experience of dying, and you think you die. Uh they'll say it's your ego dying. But I the first one that I did, the first hit I did, I went into it. I felt like I died. I saw Jesus getting crucified, and then I came out of it, and then I talked to there's only a couple people there, a psychologist and two other people, the one administering, and I won't share her name because I haven't talked to her about it, but they're there and like, hey, how are you doing? I'm like, oh my God. And I started explaining to them what I saw, and I didn't realize that the the medicine's still working, and they're like, Hey, you want to go back in? I'm like, Yeah, I want there's more, there's something more I need to see out of this, and went back in and went super deep at that point. And I I felt the feeling of death. I thought it was just all over, and then God and I just started having conversations. I wasn't physically talking, it was more in my mind and asking him about war and like life, and he's like, everything's connected, like we're all connected, and war is like a man-made thing. And and then I was, you know, it's like, well, what about like the families, like the affected families of that? And he was like, Yeah, that's not for you to carry, like you did your work, and like it's okay. Like, so I don't know if subconsciously, you know, I don't but I think maybe just the human to human side, maybe subconsciously I was subduing some of it, and it was coming up then. And then I came out of it and I thought it was good. And I was talking to Gorilla uh administering it to me. I was like, I you're you're a descendant of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. And I had this like overwhelming feeling of like love just coming out towards them, and and they're like, Yeah, yeah, it's okay, and put the the eye mask back on me and laid me back down because now I could see again, so I thought it was over, and then like my body just started like shaking and trembling, and I would go from like smiling to like tears pouring out, and I just I look at it as I think I just like processing emotion. And this is all over a span of like hours or this one, yeah. It's like it's pretty short half-life. I think you're doing it like 15-20 minutes or so. Oh you can stay down there longer because you are processing some stuff, like so. When you do it, it's pretty quick. Yeah, and uh so I I begin is like I think you trip 18 hours or so, you're not peaking that long. Um, but this is a lot shorter, but it's very powerful and spiritual, like they it it opens up the mind. I don't want to share other people's experience on there, but it pretty much everybody had a similar experience with it. And even there's a team guy I know that was not my cohort completely separate, went from being an atheist to talking to Jesus during the five, and now he's like a devout Christian. Wow, free crazy. So, whatever it is of it, you know, like uh I'm not trying to sway people to Christianity or anything, but it it was exactly what I needed. It gave me a new look at life. It allowed me to, you know, just kind of feel again, especially, you know, healing with the the insomnia is the biggest thing because then I was Okay, I ask you what what's insomni what's your insomnia? Mine was some people have problems staying asleep, mine was falling asleep. Once I was asleep, literally dead of the world. Um I slept through like 107s coming in Iraq. Like I just dead of the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

Don't feel bad. This guy slept through a helicopter with a spotlight searching for someone in our backyard once, not easy.

Feeling Emotions Again

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

Which I'm pissed about because it was I won't go into but I do I do wake up, that's why I ask because I you wake up. I I have no problem falling asleep. I can fall asleep anywhere staying asleep. Mine was uh going to sleep, so I would just sit there and toss churn mine running. My last appointment, I remember like I I prefer to work out in the afternoon. Sometimes I would be in the gym like 4:35 in the morning, the platoon would come in. They knew like uh Pat didn't sleep last night. But you have the same responsibilities, you know, you gotta get up, get the kids moving to school, so then you're just sleep deprived. And it would, it would I would go today exhausted, like I just can't wait to get home and go to bed, and nighttime would hit, and uh sudden it's just like uh you're awake again, and that was immediately fixed. One time one time going to the spirit world over a weekend. How long ago was did you go to Mexico and do this? Uh December of 2024, so about a year and a half. Oh, so it's been a year and a half. So you've had some time now since how's it changed since then? Well, I think one part I always like to share is uh it was a few months after I I went and did it my journey, and I was pretty grumpy one day. Like, and I was sitting here thinking because I didn't really have anything to be grumpy about, but I was on edge and I was irritable, and you know, probably being short with the wife and the kids, and I wouldn't know a guy who does that. I told my wife, I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like I think I have emotions or something, and like she got all choked up and teared up, and she's like, You do, and that was it. Like, I I don't know how to describe it. Like, you know, we always were good at like probably happiness and anger before, but like, you know, I was feeling like sadness, like little things. I watch movies with my kids, and I get choked up. Like sometimes I just laugh, so I don't cry. Like, but I was feeling these things I didn't know what to do with, and I think my body was like, Well, that we know what to do with that. Let's just turn that in aggression, you know, or frustration or anger or whatever. And that was eye-opening for me. It was a pivotal moment in my marriage. You know, I'm not perfect, and we're in a really good spot, and uh, I I equate it to that. And if it were up to the military or especially the VA, yeah, it just feels like they would just give me handfuls of pills, and you know, it's like, oh yeah, like here you might have like suicidal thoughts and erectile dysfunction, all these crazy things. But I went to Mexico and did plant medicine over one weekend, and all those things are gone. And that's why, like, the heroin thing, if you've ever met a heroin act, that blows my mind because they are just coming off of it. Um, so I'm I'm glad that the you know the US is opening this up, they'll bring it as a viable option here because like, and maybe people get weird about it. Like, I wasn't going to Mexico and doing drugs, like this is absolutely medicine. Yeah, I think there's still some old people we talk about, like, oh, clutch my pearls, and it's like, yeah, even if it's marijuana or something, but like the same people, and I'm gonna say it because I guess it's our show, will be like, oh no, alcohol, everyone drink, like here, let's everyone get drunk, but then or like they're popping Xanaxes, or like there's different forms of substance that's approved in their minds, and this isn't even like hey, just popping it in the what this is under controlled settings with medical observation. Like I I purged a couple times twice through the process. I heard ayahuasca, like throwing up, like uh I heard ayahuasca is a lot more of that. But for me, like I was doing, I remember like one time I got up and I started throwing up and I laid back down, and I was like, Oh god, I gotta get back up. And my you have buckets next to your bed. It was all I already had a clean bucket in less than 15 seconds. Like, there's nurses there, they're monitoring you, they're keeping everything going. And then eventually I was like, Hey, i boga. So I was I talked to the medicine. I'm like, i boga, like this is happening, man. I like I ate it and we're going to the spirit world, so just quit throwing up and not getting rid of it. And then luckily I didn't throw up again the rest of the night. It was like I spoke to you know, i boga my body of like half this is happening, this whole ride. 18 months later. Yeah. As far as that part I know, you're still working with some lung stuff we've talked with. Yeah, working through that, uh, get back to or at least get as good as you can. But uh I'm in a really good spot. Yeah, that saved my life, uh, and I think it's doing wonders for veterans out there and not just veterans, you know. Yeah, we don't want trauma. We have trauma, like if you know, rape victims or God knows what people have been through. And this it allows you to just process that and move forward. And I'm super grateful for it. Like that it was the biggest blessing. And then after you do it, then you you have an integration coach to like help you process it because it is a process, and I actually waited to talk with my coach because uh you get like a certain amount of like afterwards, mm-hmm. So I think I waited about a month because I told her her name is Kendra. Kendra's an incredible coach as well. Yeah, incredible. And I was like, I think I just need to digest what just happened here before I can yeah, really talk to you and you know, and have anything of substance. And she was just very helpful with like navigating, you know, the feelings you don't feel and give yourself grace because it they call it a journey, it's not just that weekend. Yeah, for really, I say that for like the whole year, I was just processing things, thinking it through, learning like what my body's doing and feeling emotions and certain things you haven't felt since maybe as a kid. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And I came off, I'm not saying this cures it, but I came off blood pressure medicine as well. Really? Yeah, and when I went to another TBI clinic up in uh Boston at home base, home base, yeah, my heart rate resting heart rate was like 111 up there.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:15

Which makes sense neurologically. If you've incurred a lot of trauma, it can actually be a trigger of an accelerated heart rate.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

Yeah, and I never looked at it as trauma, right? Tuesday is gonna do something. It's Tuesday, but there was a the doctor up there, he he helped me understand it. And uh he was like, Look, man, like you are just switched on still. You have like your sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system, it's your fire flight. Fight or flight, and he's like, You were you guys, it's not just me, like just a lot, and not just operators, you know, infantry guys, everybody that is like in in the GWAP putting in work, you're in just a stressful environment all the time, and so your body is constantly switched on, and you need to get it to relax and reset. And that was what our body says transform to get normal with that chaos. Yeah. No, we had to transform it to get normal with normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

And what's fascinating is it's because your body is telling you that's how to keep you alive, and so that's where it's really hard because once you've incurred that for a period of time, your body doesn't just undo that without some significant effort.

Public Insurance Adjuster

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Yeah, you can do you know, there's probably people that might be able to do it with mindfulness and meditation, you know, but it's still effort, but it saves effort, but and everyone's a little different. What the what I've found, talk with you, my own journey, other people's like what works for one, there could be little differences here and there. Yeah, it was perfect for me. It was exactly what I needed. By far, changed my life for the better. Made me a better father, a better husband. I didn't think a better human being in general. Like how a navy EOD guy becomes a public adjuster. I was just seeing what was happening in the industry, and I didn't feel like they were taking care of people, and then but let's back up. Hold up. What is a public insurance adjuster? So, yeah, the so you have an insurance adjuster that works for the insurance company, so it comes out to your loss. Anyone who has insurance, all of us have insurance, they work for the company. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:18

And what is your company?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:19

Um CNS solutions or crab and shield solutions kind of comes off a spin off of EOD. So they call our pin the crab. The shield is like the protection of personnel and property as a mission. And you're not beholden to the insurance companies. No, I represent the people, and I'm slowly dialing back. My company's gonna maintain its position and uh advocating for policy holders. I've been working in the state of Virginia and getting some things sent up for the state to ideally adopt as legislation and some regulations. A public insurance. I have a claim. We get a flood here. Insurance says, Oh, I'm gonna pay you X. I can go get a public insurance adjuster to come in and assess what should be refunded or not refunded, make you whole. Yeah, then the five, you know, make you whole that big word. Yeah, the problem is what I was seeing, what bothers me with the veterans community is the USA is by far the worst for me uh that I've saw of doing it. Like denials are a big one. I have a guy that was a member since 1956, and they didn't even send anybody to his house and just denied him on the phone. I have like four of them for his insurance claim. Yeah. We're talking probably significant because he filed in this case that insurance claims you know it it was roughly about a hundred thousand, a little over a hundred thousand dollars in damage, and I got it fixed for him. But what bothers me is like it's a membership, you know. I understand to a degree some of these other practices are happening when it's they're publicly trading. Yeah, but you know, when you're representing a veteran community and telling us that you'll take care of those that serves and our families, yeah. I think we we have very different definitions of that. So I wrote some letters to the executives, they haven't responded yet, but the president of property and casualty the very next week after I wrote my first letter was in Chesapeake, Virginia, having a meeting at the USA off it. What worries me is I I don't think it's just a one-off. I've become I've been able to see a pattern happening. Yeah, just don't don't have that false sense of security of the case. Yeah, what can people do? I guess if they're all of us out here have insurance, we own houses or cars or whatnot, but then if the the insurance agency says no, you're not getting money, there's recourse, right? There's what can they do? You hire a public adjuster if you're in a state that allows public adjusters. Uh state of Arkansas doesn't, a couple other states say it restrict it a bit. But get them because they work for you, they represent you. Make sure you get a reputable one because, like any other industry, there's some bad apples running around. Um, so get a reputable public adjuster that's gonna represent you and don't give up.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

That's what they want.

Being Self-Aware

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

They want we talk about this go away. It's not an easy process, it's a miserable process. Your house is probably torn apart, and you know, you just want to get back. And so a lot of people and I've met them, they're about to take seconds on their on their home to pay for damage that they had coverage for, and we ended up getting them coverage. But I have a problem, I think, carrying other people's burdens at time and stress and being a little too empathetic and taking on their pain. Yeah, yeah, that is very frustrating to see, especially when it's you know, a company that represents service members. I'm slowly dialing it back. I'm gonna get back into my roots and get around operators again and do some uh explosive things, but I'm gonna keep the company around and continue to bring the fight for policy or advocacy. I think that's important though. You realized what was good for you.

unknown 1:27:02

Yeah.

Final Thoughts: What Really Matters

SPEAKER_01 1:27:02

Uh do it because quite frankly, it could be lucrative if you would have continued. It's not a money thing, right? It's uh what it's doing to you. Yeah. Carrying that fight for others. Yeah, it it's a fight. Uh uh for sure. And it's frustrating, and you see good people, largest investment. They paid somebody else to assume that risk, and you know, their end of the deal is to indemnify and make them whole, and they're not doing that. So that that's tough pill to swallow. And then some of the people that you interact with, it's like it's getting changed right now, thanks to uh, you know, Virginia passing the laws this year is supposed to be getting changed as we speak. They weren't even licensed in the state of Virginia, you didn't have to be licensed to be an insurance adjuster. Yeah, but for as a public, you have to be licensed and bonded. So there's those problems, and you talk to people and they just they understand basic science. You know, one of my letters that I wrote, I told them it's one of the few industries where you can. And have incompetent employees and then in turn be more profitable. So yeah, I recognize that it was weighing me down. And I I've already I had a life with stress before. And you know, this next chapter of my life, I just want to make sure that I'm taking care of the family. And I'm not going to let people fall the wayside, but I'm just going to look different of how I'm helping them. How you sport. I want to get around, you know, some operators again, and I'm gonna back into doing you know some explosive work and get back to my roots and nice uh yeah, spend spend time with the family and just enjoy life. I mean, we love you, brother. You know that you're you're one of our favorite people. What do you value most in life? Oh, my my time on earth in the relationships, it's so much fun, and you know, you go through hard times, and you know, I've been rock bottom, like shoot, I've probably been a bottom bouncer at times, you know, and you know, if you just stick right through it, like when I look back at it, if there was a if God gave me an option to get reincarnated, I would do it all over again. And because it's such a duality, this life is there's so much pain and hurt, but at the same time, there's so much love and happiness, and to me, the love and happiness just outweighs all those other little times, and you know, that comes through connection, like the connection I have with you and Corey and all my former teammates and my family, like that's what I value most is my time with them because you know it's not just what old people say that life goes by really fast. I I I'm a believer now, it goes by really fast. Yeah. We love you, Pat. I love you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:50

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SPEAKER_01 1:29:57

Until then, on your journey.