She Ran CIA Operations. He Led Navy SEALs. Their Story Is Unreal | Karen Schaefer and John Burnham Interview

In this episode of Not Special, Karen and John share what it was really like inside the CIA, SEAL Team 6, Afghanistan, and the mission environment that led to the Osama bin Laden raid.

Karen spent 26 years serving as a CIA operations officer, deploying to some of the world’s most dangerous environments after 9/11. John served as a Navy SEAL and later as deputy commander at SEAL Team 6. Together, they open up about leadership, sacrifice, intelligence work, combat operations, and how America’s national security system evolved during two decades of war.

From the chaos of early Afghanistan deployments to the inner workings of the intelligence community, this conversation gives a rare behind-the-scenes look at the people and relationships that shaped modern history.

🎙️ In this episode:
 • Karen’s first deployment to Afghanistan after 9/11
 • Growing up in a CIA family
 • John’s unexpected path to becoming a Navy SEAL
 • What SEAL Team culture was like before social media
 • The reality of Hell Week and BUD/S
 • CIA and military cooperation during the War on Terror
 • Inside the environment surrounding the Osama bin Laden operation
 • Leadership lessons from elite teams
 • The future of national security and cyber warfare
 • Why service, mentorship, and purpose still matter

⏱️ CLICKABLE CHAPTER TIMESTAMPS

00:00 – Why Karen & John are Special

02:53 – CIA is More Scary Than Navy SEALs

04:15 – How Karen Got Into the CIA

09:12 – Whatever Led John to the Navy and SEAL Teams

20:39 – BUD/S and Hell Week

24:32 – What Was the First Day at the CIA Like

26:45 – Was Karen Ready for the CIA

32:06 – Reporting to SEAL Team 2

33:55 – The First Days in Afghanistan

36:53 – CIA and Military Power Struggle

40:26 – The Army - Navy Rivalry

41:56 – The Bin Laden Raid from the NSC

47:46 – The bin Laden Raid from the SEALs

51:56 – The Beauty of Afghanistan

54:35 – National Security in the US

1:02:02 – Balancing a CIA Career and Being a Mom

1:07:09 – Leaving the SEAL Teams

1:14:38 – Harry Potter Wisdom

1:18:02– Who is the Plus 1?

1:24:53 – How Karen & John Met

1:30:48 – What They Value Most in Life

Connect with Liberty Speaks: 
🌐 Website: www.libertyspeaks.com 
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Transcript

Why Karen & John are Special

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Karen, John, why are you special?

SPEAKER_07 0:04

You can go first.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I get to go first.

SPEAKER_07 0:06

Yes, you get to go first.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

I don't think I am special. I actually we were having this discussion earlier. I think I was fortunate. I had an amazing career, 26 years with the agency, Central Intelligence Agency. I'm sorry, there's several agencies. People get angry when I do that. And I had incredible opportunities to travel to wonderful places and do extraordinary work. I had incredible mentors that taught me how to do that work. And I'd like to think that in some small measure I gave something back to our country. So I would say I try to continue to look for ways now that I have stepped out of government to give back. I'm not sure that makes me special, but it certainly gives me purpose.

SPEAKER_07 0:56

I'd go along the same lines. Special, not in the sense of talents or accomplishments, but you know, as we've discussed elsewhere, special in the sense that born into fortunate circumstances, not a tremendous amount of adversity, enough, but but not a a huge amount. And and being able to really take advantage of that. Now I think the other side of it, to your point, Don is I I think one of the things that that I'm proud of in terms of being special is that some of us have the opportunity in life where you hit an inflection point and you can you you have the resources and the time to give back.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:42

And try to help and you know, as we say, you do good where you can. I think we we're we're special in that sense that there's a vanishingly small percentage of folks in the world today. And we don't like to we we don't think about that, I guess, a lot because we're not in the 1%, right? But we're probably in the top five percent if you look worldwide. And and having the ability and the time to do good for others, I think that is that makes you special, and you need to recognize that and you need to do something about it.

SPEAKER_05 2:13

No, I love it. Our audience is gonna think you're special. We think you're special, obviously. I mean, Karen, 26 years at the agency, operations officer, senior executive there, John, retired SEAL, deputy commander down at uh DevGrew. You're special.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

You're special people, you're a special couple, and you're a Liberty Speaks speaker.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

And there you go, I'm Liberty Speaks speaker. I'm Herb Thompson, a green brain resolutionist.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's Les Harry Half and branding expert.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true they are special.

SPEAKER_07 2:49

Another small group, right? Small committees.

SPEAKER_05 2:53

Like you as a SEAL and all that, you'd you strike zero fear of me. Karen, on the other hand, there's like I'm not just sitting here trembling, but like there's more fear of her than you, I'll just say that.

SPEAKER_07 3:07

And and and your antenna are correct.

SPEAKER_05 3:10

Like so, how does it feel to be a SEAL team six guy and you're not the biggest badass in your family?

SPEAKER_07 3:17

Every day is humbling. Every day is an exercise in character building. Yeah. No question about that. I try to remind him regularly. It took a while to get those reflexes in line because there was there was a there was a long time where I pushed back against that framework. And as soon as I accepted it, life was so well, it it didn't, but yes. And as soon as I accepted it, life was so much better.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

To your point, when you speak with Karen, she is the softest, warmest, loveliest person. So I could see how your brain would fail to recognize that circumstance.

SPEAKER_07 3:52

Cognitive dissonance. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't understand the steel that lies beneath all that soft, fuzzy exterior. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Thank you, but giving away all my secrets, the real secrets.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

Playing along with my humor here too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 4:05

You're exactly we can end the show now. That's all I'm gonna do. First shot, ten ring. Like we're done. Like just put the weapon down, we're done.

How Karen Got Into the CIA

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Uh-huh. Karen, can you tell us what led you to the agency? How'd you get your start?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. So my father, rest in peace. He just passed on the first of February. He served with the agency for 50 years.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

So Did you say 50?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

50. Both as a full-time operations officer for about close to 40, and then came actually, probably even more than 40, and then transitioned and came back as one of those gray beard senior contractors and would help with a lot of the more sensitive operations. I was lucky enough as his dependent to be able to grow up in Latin America. I was actually born in Mexico, and then we lived in Honduras, Argentina, and Chile. At a very early age, I was exposed to a lot of cultures, a lot of different people. So at a very young age, I knew that I loved being overseas. I felt very at home overseas, and that I wanted to do something that would allow me to be back overseas for at least at least part of my career. And so I, you know, was pretty regimented about studying the things I needed to study and preparing myself for a career that would allow me to do that. So when I graduated from the University of Virginia, the first place that I applied was the agency.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

The first place.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_05 5:43

And then he got picked up. No, that takes a while, right? I did.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

My father didn't know. He was overseas at the time. So it was kind of funny.

SPEAKER_07 5:50

Because you didn't use the legacy, you didn't use any of the systems.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I didn't tell anyone you need to. Just five minutes of talking to you. I don't think anyone would think that you're not.

SPEAKER_07 5:59

But you also spent your time working, like waiting for because the interminable Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

That was enough to make me realize I I had thought briefly that I, you know, I I do like to talk. And I I thought briefly that I might want to go into international law and do something like that. And I yeah, I worked just long enough for a senior partner at a very reputable law firm downtown to realize that no way, no how, you know, both John and I, I think, would would argue that we have a bias for action. So this was a career that was much better suited for me and my personality.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

So thankfully at the time, were you immediately exposed to a lot of other female coworkers, or were you at the agency?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

When I started, it was during the peace dividend. So Clinton had a hiring freeze, and there was a very small number of people. You know, I think there were maybe 30 of us that were hired, which was extraordinarily small. And in my class, there were only four women that were of that third. I think they're maybe even less than 30. So not a huge cohort of women on the operation side. And, you know, we can certainly talk about this ad nauseum, but but it's a career that makes it very challenging to balance, you know, have any kind of work life, in particular for women who may want to have families. So, so some of it is just, you know, institutionally it's hard for a lot of women to continue on the operation side of the house, move up the ladder. We've gotten so much better than we used to, but it's still a struggle. There are choices. And I think I mentioned to you earlier today the single most important decision you make, I think for any woman when you're stepping into a career is who you choose as a partner. And yeah, so so not as many as I would have liked. The good news is tons of women. I think the women outnumber the men on the analytical side of the house. So there is a balance in some of the directorates that you don't necessarily see on the operation side, which is why I'm so passionate about mentoring young women, because I think it's critical. I think you need different voices, different perspectives at the table. There are strengths that women bring to the table that I think enhance our ability to do intelligence.

SPEAKER_05 8:30

Yeah, there's stuff you get places we can't at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Just as a absolutely people thanks for letting me throw that in. I was hoping to give you that leeway to talk about your mentorship there to women joining. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Absolutely. So I'm always happy to talk to anyone who's interested in a career, not just with the agency. I spent time at the FBI as well. There's so many ways that women can step into the national security and should look for opportunities to step into national security because it's it is, as we know, more important than ever. It's not getting br better, it's getting worse by the day.

What Led John to the Navy and SEAL Teams

SPEAKER_05 9:07

So we are getting safe tomorrow by luck. Uh speaking of that, John, what led you to become a SEAL, join the Navy? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_07 9:18

So you've heard the preparation and the thought that went into Karen's career. I'm going to take you to the other end of the spectrum. Because so I I also grew up, my dad was in the Navy. And we we lived overseas. We lived in Guantanamo Bay. We lived in Okinawa, Japan. And bunch of it was back in the time when you moved every two to three years in the military that homesteading was not allowed. That's not what you did. So I I was part of that life already. I enjoyed it, right? I understood the sort of military structure. The driver for me though was I needed to pay for school. My my parents, the three of us, I was the oldest. So I was, if I was going to go to college, it was going to be on a Rotzi scholarship.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

And you went to a cheap school. I went to a cheap school.

SPEAKER_07 10:06

And I I I thought about applying to the academy, but I do remember, and I'm sure it's gone now, but I remember I got the brochure from the academy and I opened it up. And on that first page or somewhere thereabouts, this is 1908, this is uh 1982. So it was a while ago. But it said something like if fields like English, the arts, you know, psychology appeal to you, the academy probably isn't the place for you because they were really cranking on engineering. And I closed Bruce River. Doesn't sound like a fun place. So so I I did, I got a I got a Rod scholarship to Penn, University of Pennsylvania. I knew that I was gonna have to go into the Navy.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Can you talk about like what an awesome experience that is for kids to be able to have the experience of college, but then transition to service.

SPEAKER_07 10:57

And I I have so many friends that went to West Point, Air Force Academy, Naval Academy, and they're phenomenal institutions. I was just back speaking to all of the mids, the first class mids who are going into naval special warfare and EOD out in Apollo about a month or so ago. And so that's great. That's not where I needed to be. The great thing about Rotsi for me was you have the structure and you know what you're gonna do, but I but I I needed that time in college to grow up a little bit. Yeah, some freedom. Have some freedom grow up a little bit. I I just would I would not have done well. Again, while my while my friends are sweating through internships and trying to figure out what they're gonna do. I'm going on cruises, you know. We did Opsale 86. Uh, my destroyer went up. We did the statue when they relit the torch in the Statue of Liberty. We were up in that big international convoy. Yeah, the international convoy.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

Sounds like a rough cruise.

SPEAKER_04 11:55

It was tough. It was tough.

SPEAKER_07 11:56

We're actually supposed to do something else. And then the USS Josephus Daniels dropped their engineering plant right next to us, and they threw us into the line and off we went. So, but I so I I knew what I was going to do. I knew I was going into the Navy. So in the 80s, I graduated, got commissioned in 87. I had no idea what I wanted to do. So again, remember, we're on the other end of the spectrum here in terms of preparation and thought. So I didn't want to fly. Certainly didn't want to be on a submarine. In in the 80s, this is the era of the 600 ship Navy. And so they were not going to send you to the University of Pennsylvania and uh allow you to they I didn't even know about SEALs. Like they they that naval special warfare was not something that they highlighted as a as a way to go. And so it left surface warfare, you know, going out on a ship, which was fine with me. You know, it's okay with that. And so the way now in at the academy, you do your big selection night and they have the whole thing where you you sort out so something similar in in Rotsi, at least back then, for surface warfare, you would you had three categories. And this this is how I stumbled into my future. So you have three categories there's ship type, there's location, and there's job. So you were supposed to put down your top three for each one of those categories, and then of those three categories, you were supposed to say which is the most important. Okay. So I start with ship type. I wanted a small ship. I did not want to go on a carrier or an amphibi or anything. So I so back then it was, you know, spruance class destroyers, kid class destroyers, Leahy class cruiser, something like that. Nation, San Diego, California, number one. And then I think Jacksonville was number two. And then I didn't even put Virginia Beach, even though I'd lived in it. I think I put somewhere, there was some like minesweeper dead out of Texas, like Galveston or whatever. It just sounded cool. I just like I'm gonna put it's on the coast because that had to be the so I put that number three. And then for job, I again, liberal arts major, I I just wanted something that involved air conditioning because I'd been on my summer cruises, and the guys that were up in the combat information center or the communication shack got to wear a sweater on watch. Like, pretty cool. Like that's what I wanted. So I did like ops, comms, whatever, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

So to be clear, had I met him at this stage in his life, we would not be again.

SPEAKER_07 14:17

Not sure. Can you see the appeal? Is the appeal just coming through to you at this point? Can you imagine? Can you imagine this at the end of the day? I'm trying to wonder how the heck you became a CEO now. Like so, so and then you had to say so of the three categories, location was the most important to me. So that's what I, you know, what I've what I boil that down to is you know, coming out of the University of Pennsylvania, my sole professional desire was to go to San Diego, California.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

I mean, it's not where I have if you had to. Out of all of it, I feel like that's the most formidable thought. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 14:48

And and our our Marine officer instructor was John Toulin, who retired as a three-star. He was a Marine 03 at the time, and he had been stationed out in California and he knew about Old Mission Beach Athletic Club Rugby. So I was getting all the right things lined up for my professional career to go out and play for Omback and live in San Diego. So I went out there and I did two deployments on the ship. And I love being in the Navy. I love being a division officer. Oh, so back to what I wound up with. So congratulations, I get San Diego. Great. Now, here comes my first experience in the military of needs of the service. Okay, so congratulations, you've got San Diego and you got a small ship. Now, here's where we go off-road a little bit. Because the small ship that I got was the USS Marvin Shields, a Knox class frigate, a Vietnam era Knox class frigate. Now let's get to the third category. I was the boilers officer.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Go on a limb and say it's warm in the boiler room.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

So actually, Don, I was thinking as you were talking about this survey, I was like, they're pretending like they care.

SPEAKER_07 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Like they're pretending like they actually care what you're doing.

SPEAKER_07 15:53

Like when the XO, when the XO comes here and says, Hey, what do you got going on today?

unknown 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:57

He doesn't really care.

SPEAKER_05 15:58

Yeah. Whatever you got for me.

SPEAKER_07 16:00

Yeah, that's that's the answer you come up with after after giving him. So, first of all, I didn't even realize ships still had boilers. I thought that was like a monitor Merrimack thing. You know, I mean, I just thought you kind of came in, punched the button, like you know, Star Trek and Occasion.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

It's like on the silent movie, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 16:17

So I go out there, but of course, as with everything, B Division was amazing. I mean, I love Boiler Tech, salt of the earth, like boilertex and bosunmates, like salt of the earth on the ship. It was great. And Marvin Shields was an amazing ship. Uh, Chief Smith was great. I mean, everybody was great. So I had a great experience. I love being a division officer. I was boilers officer, and then I was the navigator. You switch about halfway through. Did a good old-fashioned Westpac USS constellation, big battle group deployment, crossed the line, stayed in Australia, the whole thing. Then the second deployment was Desert Shield and Desert Storm. We went over them and worked with Kuwaiti Patrol boats up in the Gulf. I mean, great stuff, right? So now I'm getting to that point where my my obligation will be done. So what do I want to do? And I I had to sit down and start thinking about what do I like about what I'm doing? What do I like about the military? What do I like about the Navy? And I thought about being a Hilo pilot because 60s were cool. We had SH2s, little sea sprites on our frigate, but 60s looked pretty cool, and that sounded seemed like a decent way to go. And I was trying to get weight equipment installed on our little frigate. And a guy ran a company who a custom built weight equipment. He had been a team guy in Vietnam. And so I was working with him, showing our little aux two space as we're talking through like how to get racks in there and everything. And he was the one who said, like, hey, what are you what are you doing here? Like, do you like to swim? I was like, Yeah, I was a swimmer my whole life. He's like, Do you like to run? I said, No. And he said, I I think he's like, Why aren't you across the bay? Because we're at 32nd Street. And I said, Well, that's, you know, surface warfare officer school, department head school. Like, I don't do that. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. On the other side of 75, which is where the teams are. And I had no idea it was over there. So what are you talking about? He's like, I want you to come meet a couple people. So Bob Smith, he was the guy who brought me over because he had gotten out as lieutenant after Vietnam. Because there was no, there was really very little future at the time. So I was in my, you know what I was, I was in my, I was in my crew cut phase.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Oh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:34

And she's seen the pictures. They're embarrassing. Oh, I can't picture it.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Not as bad as the mustache phase.

SPEAKER_07 18:39

And the mustache phase. Not as bad as the mustache phase. Yeah, it wasn't great. It wasn't great. Not proud. Boiler room. Didn't need a lot of hair in the boiler room.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

It was the 80s. It was the 80s.

SPEAKER_07 18:46

It was the late 80s.

SPEAKER_05 18:48

Yeah. Tom Selleck, Magnum P.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Tom Selleck is He can only pull off. Only he could it be.

SPEAKER_05 18:56

Zach, shout out to He could pull it off.

BUD/S and Hell Week

SPEAKER_07 18:58

Everything else is I cannot, I I cannot do a must. I if she's seen the picture. So we go across, and so he still had buddies, because this is now the late 80s, right? So we still had buddies that were over there. And that was like the team skipper and the command master chief. So he brings me over to team five and I start talking to these guys, right? And but it was it was fortuitous because it was right around that time that I'm trying to figure out what am I doing. What's next? And so what I realized was the small what I liked about B Division and and what really got me into work every day was it was the small unit dynamic. It was the camaraderie, it was the mutual trust and respect. Because, you know, you had to, didn't matter that you were the Lieutenant JG. Like that didn't make any difference, right? It like they had to respect you and you had to respect them. I mean, those are the things that I liked. And I I I love my time on the ship. I love my time, you know, going out to sea and deploying. But as I thought about it and I found more out about the teams, I thought, you know, that's the stuff that I like. Now, not the longest-term horizon decision, once again, remember because I really still wasn't thinking past sort of the 0304 phase, but it was far enough away from me at the time. And so I started looking into lateral transfer. And that's hard. It was even harder in the way, way pre-internet era, pre-everything era, right? I'm mailing things back and forth. Um but I I did eventually, so I did get accepted and then promptly blew my knee out, somebody else blew it out for me in a rugby tournament. So that pushed for a year, but then that gave me the Desert Storm deployment because I would have been in Buds during Desert Storm. So I got to do that, got that great experience, came back, and then went to BUDS. And so one of the things that I've always thought about, because I've talked to other folks where when it was the second or third night, I think it was Monday night of Hell Week. We had a we're all on the surf. It's like four, it's early, it's before breakfast, like four in the morning. And one of the last guys to quit were all sitting there arm in arm in the surf. And he just, to nobody in particular, announces his epiphany that he's had, and he says, fuck this. Like I can just tell people I'm a seal. And he got up and he walked over and he rang the bell.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

I can just tell people never forget it.

SPEAKER_07 21:18

And I thought, all right, like that's some self-awareness right there.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:22

But I think because look, Buds is a pain. You know, we know all the it's not all the right. But I think because I was drawn to the teams, not because of the flashy or the cool stuff. I was drawn to it because of the the the things that I liked about the Navy and I saw them in that community. That's what helps you get through all of the garbage, right? It it it it's what gets you through the suck during training and when you get to the team and everything else. So so really it was paying for school, going to San Diego. Stumbling into the fact that I liked the Navy.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Wearing a lot of hair gel one day.

SPEAKER_07 22:04

Wearing a lot of trying to go mustache and failing. Bob Smith being put in my life who pitches me on the teams. And then realizing that those intangible things about the Navy that I like, I see a lot of it in the teams. And so that's that's where I came. And a lot of us in our cohort have talked about, you know, the folks these days. I mean, I don't know if you guys have been looking, but but seals are kind of everywhere in social media and everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_07 22:34

Yeah. I mean, you know, you can find a bookshelf full of them. Yeah, a bookshelf full of them. But I mean, there's Discovery series on Buzz, you know, which I always joke, that foreknowledge would have probably not been good. Better to not know. But you know all about how it I you know, it's it's just so different in 1990. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

Compared to it.

SPEAKER_07 22:55

When I was trying to figure out what I would be in this, it was it was like cops or firefighters. You had to have an uncle or a cousin or you know, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I also think to your point of that, you also didn't have like the comparison of like if you were looking at other opportunities and comparing like what those pathways were, you really didn't have access to that until you went and tried it. You know, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Well, this is why so many people do what their parents did. Certainly in that, you know, when we were all growing up, because that's what you knew, that's what you had been exposed to. There wasn't this thing called the internet. Absolutely. I mean, I can't imagine that I would have thought of applying to the CIA had my father not worked there. So it's a very to John's point, I mean, same thing, right? I I can't imagine, you know, having the volume of information that you have at your disposal now to he to learn about the CIA. None of that.

SPEAKER_05 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

No one retires without writing a book from the agency anymore. But yeah, you know, that certainly wasn't the case when I was stepping in. So you're right, it is a very different.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

It's really overwhelming for the kids too. Too much information. Too much information.

SPEAKER_05 24:03

You know a little bit too much about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

You knew San Diego was sunny and probably gonna be a good time.

SPEAKER_07 24:08

Well, I I'd seen all the shows. I'd seen Six Million Dollar Man and Bionic Woman.

unknown 24:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 24:13

Ohio California, elementary school teacher in Ohio California. Yeah. Like what better life, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you weren't wrong. It's it's a pretty awesome town.

What Was the First Day at the CIA Like

SPEAKER_05 24:21

Pretty great place. So yeah. Hit the subscribe button right now. More great stories next week. We we asked the people we do have from the agencies, well, what was your first day like at the age? Do you remember walking in or like how that happened?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So I remember the first day. So they do a lot of administrative processing for you. So that's not really a very exciting first day. You know, I know that shocks you all, like signing your life away, making you sign secrecy agreements, and that's sort of in this, or at least, you know, 35 years ago, it was in some nondescript building in northern Virginia. So the first day wasn't really that exciting. What was exciting is when they brought us over and you stepped into the building for the first time. You know, even now, I have to say, it's extraordinary when I walk in. The old headquarters building is where they bring you in and then they give administer the oath of office, or I guess not the oath of office, but your oath, the equivalent of your oath of office. And I do remember just being overwhelmed. I mean, I'm still overwhelmed. You walk in and it's the if you all have ever been in the in the old headquarters entrance, I like it more than the new headquarters because it has on the left the statue of Donovan, predecessor, you know, OSS Special Forces and CIA. And then on the right hand side, it has the wall of remembrance that has all of the stars for the folks that we've lost, have been killed in action. And so it's just extraordinary. You walk in and you you walk across this beautiful seal. And it's it is extraordin it's an extraordinary experience. It's also pretty terrifying.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

You know, I was because you're 22 or so.

Was Karen Ready for the CIA

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I think I had just turned 23 and or yeah, I was maybe 22 and a half, but I was young. I myself and one other woman were the two youngest in the class. A lot of the folks had previous work experience and and for a lot of former military guys, unsurprising. But yeah, it it was when you suddenly are hit with the tremendous amount of faith that these people are placing in you to do this job that you're still not sure you can actually even do. It's it's pretty intimidating. I was joking earlier that you know it's not like I came out with some super special set of skills. You know, I was not ninja, you know, secret ninja. I didn't have all yeah, I graduated from the University of Virginia. I was like this, you know, normal suburban kid, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

And we were we were joking enough and saying if you look at her now, you think like typical suburban. I'm a total soccer mom. I'm a total soccer mom. I mean, now forget it. I mean we were talking about your awesome driving skills. Yeah, like she's just like, who would what did you say?

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Like that, yeah. Who would who would ever think I could do a J turn or pivot a car or or do threshold breaking?

SPEAKER_07 27:30

I'm like in your in your Ford's game.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I certainly could not, yes, in my Ford escape. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Hey, I have I have done threshold breaking.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

She started doing the worst cars to speak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

It's just like on the movies, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

So I think, you know, all at what it was all all those things all at once. It was amazing. It was Did you feel like pressure knowing that your dad had had this legacy there? You know, of course. You know, I wanted he was still overseas at the time. So I wasn't talking, you know, in the and of course, back then all there was were hard lines. So I couldn't pick up the phone and call and talk to him about anything. So I think for me, it was more not not so much living up to the his career. He had been very successful, but it was more not disappointing him. I, you know, it's like every kid, right? I I think no matter what you do, you want your parents to think well of you. You know, it's important.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

And so And what had his reaction been when he found out? Because I know you said he didn't know ahead of your application. Yeah. Once you solidified it, it was mixed, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

I I think he was That's reasonable. On the one hand, I think he was in, I mean, and John could probably speak more of this later in life because we we got a chance to work together a lot, which was awesome, or at least be in the building at the same time. Yeah, not necessarily work together, although at one point we did work in the same division for a while, which was pretty funny. But I think he was really proud of me, but I think at the same time he had had a career overseas. He knew how difficult of a life it was. I mean, there's a reason I didn't, you know, meet John till I was 40, get married till I was 42, have my son till I was 45. It was all the way it was supposed to be for me. But yeah it's you know, there are challenges. And so I think he was necessarily, you know, he knew what I was stepping into. And I think like any parent, he was nervous for me. So I think it was much like my feelings, his feelings were very mixed.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Do you do you remember getting the two you and I talked one time about when you arrived? I don't know if it was to team two or to team six. But do you remember what it was like walking into the teams?

SPEAKER_07 29:51

Yeah. I mean, I well, so two entrances as as she was talking. I so I remember the first day I crossed the quarter deck at BUDS, right? Basic underwater demolition SEAL training. So I walked in. So I was a frocked lieutenant, I was an 03. So I walk in in my khakis, and you check in at the quarter deck, and I was gonna walk in and then check into fourth phase, but I I I I had walked through the double doors out onto the grinder, and people knew I was coming, I was checking in because they're all the officers were checking in for the class. So I walk in and I stop for a second, and an instructor is jogging across the crime, and he's like, hey, hey, and he's coming right at me. Right? Rocky Dumas. Um here he comes, Chief Dumas. And he comes right up to me and he's like, this far away from me. And he's got his shades on, he's got his little the little green starched cover on, you know, we stand there and he's like, this far away from me. He's like, Are you the crying quarterback? It was not the question I was expecting.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

The what quarterback?

SPEAKER_07 30:53

The crying quarterback.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Oh, the crying quarterback.

SPEAKER_07 30:55

The crying quarterback. And I'm sitting there for a second and I'm thinking, do they ask everybody this question?

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Like, what's dangerous?

SPEAKER_07 31:01

Is this some is this some weird philosophical thing that I'm just like, there's a deeper like what's the answer supposed to be? Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Like, did I miss the code word?

SPEAKER_07 31:11

Is that an African swallow? Or, you know, so anyway, I said, No, I don't, I don't think so. He's like, What's your name? I said, uh Lieutenant Burnham. He's like, No, you're not him. Get out of here. So it turns out there's Alton Grizzard was a young ensign who had just graduated from the academy, and he's since passed on, rest in peace. But he was the starting quarterback for the Naval Academy. And famously or infamously, his senior year as a first class, they lost to Army.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 31:39

And at the end of the game, you know, you got to do your thing where you go to the other quarter. The camera's panning around, and there's Grizz crying his eyes out. So he was coming to Buds, and the instructors were all waiting for him.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_07 31:52

They wanted to see the crying quarterback. And Grizz was great. He was an awesome guy. Um, so that was checking into Buds. Checking into Team Two.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Were you like, thank God I'm not that guy? I was like, sucks to be him, right?

Reporting to SEAL Team 2

SPEAKER_07 32:05

So checking in to team two. So, you know, Buds is right out there with the West Coast teams, and then the East Coast teams are back in Virginia Beach. And so I got got orders back to SEAL Team Two. And so I distinctly remember crossing the quarter deck at SEAL Team Two as well. And it's funny because, you know, the West Coast teams are in San Diego. It's nice. All the doors are open to the to the uh the ocean breeze. Literally, the beach is right there, the whole thing, all the cliches are true, right? All the caricatures, surfboards and beach volleyball nets and everything.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

They make it look just nice enough. Just nice enough.

SPEAKER_07 32:37

Right. It's it shows well. But so you go back to Little Creek. I got back there in the fall. Um, so it's a little cold, kind of it's you know, Virginia Beach, drizzly, you know. And you walk in, and team two at the time was winter warfare, um, European theater. And so there's all these very serious people walking around. And you just I the the experience of walking in was kind of the same thing. It was intimidating. I mean, I'm four years in the Navy. I, you know, sailed around the world a whole, but still you walked in and and you know, you team two was great, but it was you definitely got the impression that you were at a place that was, you know, was a serious place. And so you needed to be a good thing. You're not in San Diego. You're not in the boiler. Like north.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

First thing.

SPEAKER_07 33:26

What are we what are we doing at lunch, guys? Um not the way it worked. So so yes, that first day I walked in and I remember it was uh Leif Patala as the chief, uh Aaron Griffin was there, Frank Mulcahy was the one officer, the training warn officer, because we all got stuffed into training before we did our advanced stuff. Great stuff, right? I mean, but definitely a a a switch got flipped when you when you walked in there. That was great. Game on.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:53

Yeah, game on, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

So, Karen, can you tell us about your first days in Afghanistan? What it was like, because we're talking initial response to 9-11. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

So I had uh served uh in Latin America at the time that those were the highest threat posts. And so before I went, I had gotten a lot of specialized training in defensive driving, firearms training, and personal combat, hand-to-hand combat. So because I already had a lot of that training when they did the initial call for volunteers, um, I put my hat in the ring. The day that I was checking in to get my badge in the admin office, I watched Overseas in the embassy. Yes, in the European Embassy. I watched in the GSO's office uh the second plane hit and I knew I knew everything had changed. And sure enough, the ambassador called us all together. So fast forward, you know, after that first year, you know, we had our our obviously the military was in there with our paramilitary officers. So I was not there for any of that. But as we started to establish a footprint and set up bases, that was when they sent the surge of traditional case officers like myself in. I went thinking that I was going to be posted in Kabul. So I thought, oh, you know, I'll be at the Ariana Hotel for any of you who have spent quality time. I'll get to hang out at the Tala bar and oh no, no, definitely not amazing food. The food wasn't at that stage yet. Very early on, so it was still very rudimentary. So I was there for a day before they forward deployed me to Kandahar. And for folks who know a little bit about Afghanistan, um, Kandahar was Mulal Omar, who was the leader of the Taliban, his stronghold. And our base, the Karzai administration had given us a base which was Moolah Omar's old compound. Really, that first, I would say a lot of those first few months. I was down there, I was the only woman, and there were a total of six of us down there. And yeah, it was it was the wild west. I was gonna say the wild west. That's what I was thinking about. It was it was insane. We had, you know, thin skin vehicles. We had even the infrastructure at the base. There was no indoor plumbing. We set up, you know, just this corrugated tin thing to to heat up water that we could then shower with. I mean, it was we found a guy who used to work at Burger King in Canada to be our coach. Wow. We just there, you know, you really were building the 747 in flight. Um, you know, it was it was absolutely surreal.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

It speaks to the power struggle that was occurring at the time within, you know, those that were setting things up. Right. Or did you experience that?

SPEAKER_05 37:03

Yeah, you mean like agency versus military? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

So so I was very fortunate. And and I think most people would agree with this. When you're forward deployed, there's a forcing function there because you have to get along and work together. We actually had a a wonderful group of guys that were behind us at an uh, they were an ODA that were co-located with us, and they were awesome. I'm still friends with the guy that was the captain who actually ended up working for us later in life. And and he's one of my favorite people. When you're in the field and trying to get things done, you find a way to work together. Um the the a lot of the terror, you know, sort of what I would call, you know, those, those, you know, territorial or or fights over authorities and whatnot, that happens at headquarters. Yeah. In my experience, uh, you know, I grew up because of where I started my career in Latin America. I was working side by side with special forces and the Navy from my first tour. Um, we always worked really well in the field because we we were focused on the mission. We weren't worried about, you know, uh, you know, Title 10 versus Title 50. So, so thankfully, that was not an issue. And frankly, we needed each other to be in the time. Yes. At that time, there was nothing out there. I mean, yeah, and we were a good 45-minute drive to Kandahar Air Force Base, which was the big hub. So for security reasons, for even just survival, food, all that sort of thing, we all pitched in and helped each other out. So we were, I was, you know, I have nothing but tremendous respect for my military counterparts. Doesn't mean that I haven't made him sleep on the couch when we have our Title 10 versus Title 50 fights.

SPEAKER_07 38:56

When we have discussions about covert action versus traditional military activity. Yes, we the dinner table discussions, you know, doesn't everybody talk about stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Normal normal disagreements. No, no.

SPEAKER_07 39:09

But but I but we've talked about this where inside the executive branch and the national security area, all those folks, all of us who worked at the tactical levels in that first decade or so after 9-11, you know, in the second decade and this decade, are now up as seniors. And I think there is a you know a a degree of interagency understanding that didn't exist before that. Definitely. Um if you're looking for something that can that can come out of it, it's because when you have that kind of a formative experience.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

It's hard to hate up close, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. And I will say we we talk about this too and lament it a little bit. This is why we all, you know, it's like you fight the same war. Like the the the joke about Afghanistan, right? One year at a time, you know, 20 times over.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Is that, you know, I do worry that we're gonna lose a lot of that agility and that interagency goodness just because there aren't those forcing functions right now, um, in the way that we had them. Not that I mean, not that right. You had to, you know, Iraq and Afghanistan in both instances, you know, we were we were forced to work together and and figure out ways to get the job done.

The Army - Navy Rivalry

SPEAKER_02 40:24

I hope that that was your experience. I know certainly for Herb, he he refuses to participate in the the Army, Navy, you know, like I'm not gonna check out.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

There's some fun stuff with that. You know, there is some some people take seriously.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I didn't go to either school, and there's some people that are like, yeah, but you were army. So and he's like, you have to understand these people were my people. Yeah, you know, so there is a lot of that, you know. I think actually in this area, especially, we've spent more time with seals that Herb worked with than Green Berets that he worked with. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Yeah, it's just an artificial I need hair gel. That's why it's no reason.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Hair gel and books.

SPEAKER_07 41:04

If you want cool, if you want cool, there's one community you come to.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Oh, you know what? LA always says.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

So this was one thing that actually, when I first retired, would annoy me because I'd be like, I thought everyone knew what a green beret was. So like people be like, hey, what'd you do in the military? That's like a green beret, and they're like, is that like a navy seal? I was like, yes, but cooler. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Hey, Herb, just so you know, my first boyfriend overseas in my first assignment was uh a Green Bray special forces guy. Then downgraded America. He wasn't eighth group, he was seventh group, but he was a nice, nice young man. Yes, yes, he was a nice young man.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

There you go.

The Bin Laden Raid from the NSC

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Contact us for speaking engagements, brand partnership opportunities, people like John, great speakers at Liberty Speaks. I do think it's interesting for both of you. Both were were aware of the bin Laden raid before it happened. Is that correct? Somewhat ish? Yes. How not to get any details or sudden but what was that like from your side?

SPEAKER_01 42:10

I have to say, probably one of the highlights of my career. When you when you do the kind of work that we do, you don't always get to see uh a tangible, uh certainly in the intelligence community, probably more so in the military, but a tangible result to years and years and years of dedicated efforts against a a target set. So the UBL uh the Osama bin Laden raid was a really uh extraordinary thing to be a part of. The only reason I was read in, I joke all the time about this, is that I was at the at the NSC at the time and I was in charge of the covert action programs in inside the National Security Council, White House. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:00

You're important.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

I was I was the least important person in those rooms. I was the I joke that I was the official copier and stapler. There was myself and one other, one other young woman who we were both read in, because you're talking about maybe 30 people other than the team that was actually going to execute the operation that were read in at the it was a very small group of people that were working this for obvious reasons. And we were brought in because really truly, the principals when they would meet and the deputies, you had to have all the materials prepared. Someone's gotta help prepare stuff. And because I was in charge of the president's covert action programs, overseeing the management of them, they needed my access to my computers and whatnot. So I did a lot of the copying and staple. I I was the binder queen, right? So I joke. But you know what? I would have made coffee to be in the room where it happened, you know, to steal a Hamilton reference. I I got to be in the room when it happened. And, you know, as someone who is a serial collaborator and grew up in my career working side by side with military, FBI, you know, Treasury, all of these folks that play such an incredible are integral parts to the national security apparatus. It was so beautiful to sit and watch something like this come together where you really did see the best and the brightest all in their lanes contribute. You know, you had the best imagery analysts looking at the imagery. You had the best technologists putting the right equipment against, you know, to surveil the target set. You had the best signatures collecting whatever brief snippets they could to track the couriers that ultimately led us to Osama bin Laden. So you had the best targeters at the agency who had literally for a decade.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Like I said, that was every day.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

There was one young woman in particular who, you know, lived and breathed this. I was gonna say it becomes an obsession. Yes, an absolute obsession. And America owes her a debt for sure. I mean, obviously it took a whole community. But I think what I love so much about it, I mean, of course, you know, I don't revel in anyone's death. It's not, you know, that's not who we are as a country, I don't believe. But I I think what it means to me from a as an operation is the best that our country, you know, really is capable of when we put aside our petty green, you know, as we were talking about, like all of these, the tribal infighting. And everyone understood that this was more important than any one organization. The discussions that the senior leaders had, the questions they were asking, their ability to say what makes most sense, not what will make my organization look the best. It was really wonderful to watch that happen. And then it was wonderful at a working level to see people sort of putting aside any of those petty grievances to just get the job done. So it was really, it was absolutely a highlight of my career, even though my role was less than a glamorous.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

But I'm sure you learned so much being a part of that and just, you know, being able to be in the room and absorb the information. I'm sure that that had a critical impact on your career.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Like I said, I mean, just even listening to the kinds of questions, you know, it's it's a leadership course on steroids, right? You're you're in a room with the smartest people in our government, truly people who have dedicated their lives to public service, talking about every possible contingency, every possible second and third order consequence. It was really remarkable. It was such a remarkable experience.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Watching a 15,000 piece puzzle set come together and you can finally see the full picture.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Yes, you know, yes, yes, yes, yes. So so I I feel very a tremendous sense of gratitude that that I could be anywhere a part of that experience. Yeah, it really was.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

And you don't have to.

SPEAKER_07 47:45

Okay. How do you see a John? So here's here's what I'm able to say, let's put it that way. I'll pick up on what she was talking about. Most who were involved will agree that tactically speaking, it was not an overly difficult target. That was fairly straightforward. It was everything around the operation that was so complex, starting with the compartmentalization, going through some of the logistics and everything else. And that's unique, that's different than what the normal sort of operational cycle, what people think of as the operational cycle. And also something that that Karen was talking about, I my assertion is that had we had the same fidelity of intelligence in 2001 versus 2011, no way we would have been able to do the app. Not because of the skill of the operators, but because of everything else she was talking about, the whole machine around it. So think about Tora Bora.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

But also, you know, a point that you've made, which I I had never thought about, but you're exactly right, is the relationships we were talking about that were were cemented over that decade. Because between two, you know, 2001 and and the actual operation, you had 10 years of us working side by side with the military, building up that relationship so that there was trust and a level of transparency there that 10 years before, nine years before it wasn't. It wouldn't have existed. And there would have been complications to just basically right, which was something I hadn't thought about.

SPEAKER_07 49:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's that's that's why with 01 versus 11, it just wouldn't have been possible. The machine wasn't there, you know, Bagram and all the other pieces over there. And if you go back to the 9-11 Commission report, where they run through the Tarnak Farms possible op in the 90s. And, you know, to Karen's point, there were there were equally dedicated public servants looking at that on the military side, on the intelligence side, up across the river at the NSC and everything else. And for a whole bunch of different reasons, they decided it was not tenable to try to get the military to go after this compound and Tarnak Farms. That that's that's the bookend right there. So what happened during that 10 years after 9-11, the relationships were there, but also the confidence of the civilian leadership, the senior military and intelligence folks who understood each other and understood the capabilities and were able to take a swing at something like that. Um so I think that's that's one big thing though.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

How much do you think your relationships with the locals, you know, were important in that as well? Like in that time that you'd had to build up.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

I mean in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

How much do you think that played a part, if any, on that mission being a success?

The Beauty of Afghanistan

SPEAKER_07 50:49

Oh, on that mission, very little. I mean, honestly. Yeah. And I and I think, you know, but to that point, uh from a community perspective, certainly all joking aside, sort of SF versus NSW, you know, Green Brays versus SEALs, theater special operations versus JSOC, right? The early days of Afghanistan, we spent a lot more time out amongst it, to Karen's point in the Wild West when we were living out in compounds, even on the JSOC side, living out in compounds and interacting with locals. So when I was a task force commander in Afghanistan, my command master chief and I, we would go to the different troop locations and, you know, once every other week or so go out on an op with them. And we were tourists, we were not, you know, we were just sort of just seeing how things were on the ground. There was one particularly long night that we were on. We flew back in the daytime, and the the Brits would always have to come get us because, you know, the our Helos didn't fly at daytime. So the Brits would come get us and they'd just heckle us all the way back because only they could fly in the daytime. The CH 47. We'd heckle them for having CH 47, the 799 47. But as we were flying back, we got back and we were downstaging, and one of the younger guys from the troop, you know, we're just sort of chatting. And he just made this observation. He said, you know, he said, I never really realized how how beautiful the country is. We're on the eastern part of the country. And that's up near the timber line. I mean, the the eastern part, people think Kandahar and Harat like the flat desert, but the eastern part of the country, it's the foothill, the foothills of the Hindu Kush, right? So he said, Yeah, I never really realized what a beautiful country this was. And I remember talking to Billy Mike, Pam Ashchief later, and I it just I had never thought about that. That for the younger guys, so this is I don't know, oh eight, I guess, so seven oh eight. For the younger guys who didn't have that period of time that we had where you're out living at your living behind the main phase. Yeah, you fly in at night, you're there for your entire rotation. The only time you leave the Heskos is to go out on an op at night and you go somewhere and and you know meet people on the worst night of their lives when you're raiding their compound, and then you go back, and that's your entire rotation. What does that do to your perspective after a while? As opposed to, you know, the conventional troops or the USAID folks or anybody else who's out amongst the population. We had very little interaction with the locals, particularly by probably after maybe, I don't know, what, 04-05 somewhere in there? Yeah, then ish, right? Then almost everyone was to bases. Everything closed down. So back to your question. There there really wasn't much there that. But but the but the terrain across the organizations inside the U.S. government was a big deal. I also think about that op in particular, I don't think anybody ever really thought it would have some huge strategic consequence. It was, you know, something that needed to happen. It was something that folks had said they would do. But I also think when you look for, I think it gave the the civilian military leadership confidence that ops like that were possible. So if you look between 11 and 15, up to and including some of the recent operations, right? These far-flung, huge logistic tails, bunches of interagency coordination before, during, and after, we got good at that. Um, we got better at it. And I think that operation in particular was a big confidence builder. Again, not necessarily tactically, because it was fairly straightforward, but across the rest of the machine, it was a big deal. That's been one of the standing effects. Most kids today, if you say bin Laden, they're like, who? And that's that's okay. You know, we all fade.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

I mean, that's we've probably realized that this war is now what Vietnam was for our generation and how far removed that seemed and you know.

SPEAKER_05 54:23

My gray hair is real, sure. Absolutely.

National Security in the US

SPEAKER_02 54:26

But I know, you know, since the withdrawal of Afghanistan, there's been a lot up for debate about, you know, a number of things. Karen, if you were given all the power in the world today to maintain America as a melting pot, the symbiotic melting pot that it is, but protect our national security, do you have an answer? What what would you come up with?

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Look, we are a free society. We are a we are a country that was built by immigrants. My my, you know, on my mother's side, they were potato, you know, they came over after the potato famine, penniless, poor. They were the current Latinos that are doing most of the your yard work, your, you know, working in the restaurants as the cooks, whatnot. I am, you know, and I will say I'm ferociously biased because I've spent my career overseas and I've seen that this country attracts the best and the brightest from every country around the world. Do we run a risk because we have an open society? 100%. Yes. I would argue that if we that there is some, I believe it's a false notion that you can slam borders shut and that that somehow does away with the threat. And I'm here to tell you that, you know, the next the generation of warfare ahead of us is all cyber and it's all online and it's all so daring. So, so the real threats that are out there, uh, and I'm not talking about the onesie two, yes, there's gonna be the occasional potential threat of a terrorist coming across the border. Heck yeah. Those are not the threats that we need to be seized with right now, in my estimation. And I think we are incredibly diminished as a nation when we've and I think we've lost our way in how we talk. I'm not suggesting immigration isn't a challenge. I'm not suggesting that there you have to have a system in place, you have to have a framework, you have to have rules. I'm not disputing any of that. But I would simply argue that we as a nation pride ourselves on being immigrants and on, you know, the Statue of Liberty says, you know, send us your downtrodden, you're broken, you're tired, you're weary, right? Or I I don't know the exact quote of the code. Don't quote that because I was gonna say it and then I'm like, no, I'm gonna mess it up. I was gonna try. And I thought, you know, I'm staying away from it. Right. Something about huddled masses, but probably. The huddled masses, exactly. And and it's frankly, such as someone who has spent so much of my life as a diplomat overseas trying to promote democracy in other places, it hurts my heart a little bit to watch the demonization, I think, and mischaracterization of the threat that immigrants pose. So that's a very long-winded answer, probably. That's exactly what I was hoping. Because I I feel very passionately about this. And I feel like we are perhaps, well, first of all, we are absolutely the way in which we are discussing it is completely wrong. But I also think that, you know, we are missing the bigger picture in terms of, you know, we need the genius that comes from abroad. I the reason this country is still able to compete with the Chinas of the world is not because we have the capa, you know, the capacity to match them person for person. It's because no one can beat us at innovation. And so much of that innovation is this melting pot that makes our country so incredibly special.

SPEAKER_07 58:29

You know, many years ago back in the 90s when when I was we were deploying over to Sakure, somewhere in the so it was probably, you know, five, six, seven years after the wall had come down, there was some enterprising staff officer over at UCOM who so when you talk about national security, immigration is certainly, you know, immigrants building the country, certainly one part of it. But then there's also our power projection. And part of that power projection is certainly the military, right? The hard power, but then it's the soft power. Nobody beats us at soft power. Nobody, right? And I I think about the they called it the Gold Marches slide in UConn because they were trying to figure out as sort of Eastern Europe and behind the wall, how do you characterize how things are going and make it interesting? And somebody came up with a graphic to show the expansion of McDonald's franchise. And and because that was telling you sort of how much was you know it permeating across into the communist block. Um so it was a gold march slide. You have these old laws. And so I think that as a, you know, as a metaphor of you know, the degree to which you know we attract people in, but also the degree to which, you know, people look across, you know, for the US to be that kind of an influence as well. And and yes, you know, we are I remember I read a book in college, one and I remember it because I didn't read very many books in college, was one that I remember. But but there was it was a book about the U.S. entry into World War II. And the title of the book was The Reluctant Belligerent. And, you know, again, for those of us who spent our profession or our careers in that part of the hard power world, but also realizing there's a lot of soft power, even with special operations. Um but that that reluctant belligerent aspect of yeah, we're the United States. I mean, we absolutely have the the weaponry and the people. As General Brown used to say, um, you know, our all of our awesome equipment would just be a static display without the people that we've got, right? And militaries around the world want to know how our non-commissioned officer corps works and everything else, right? So we've got that bat in the closet if we need it, no question about it. But it's it's the other side of it as well. That that other projection is what really gives you the long-term influence because, you know, like Sparta tried sustained hard power for a while. And I'm I'm I I I have to go back and look. I see how it worked out for him. But you know, you know, a couple of things. Read that book. Read that book, read that book. So anyway, but I think that's another big piece of it, right? Is that what influence do we have? And especially these days where things are more and more global. Uh, you know, even entertainment and music and everything else, and sort of, you know, so as things become more homogenized, it's just like in the professional world or whatever else, what's your differentiator? Why do people want why do people want you in the meeting? You know, what makes you special, right? To start to circle back to the beginning question, right? Well, so what makes America special? I mean, you know, it it that bears some reflection usually. You know, we're coming up on a quarter millennium.

unknown 1:01:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:38

And how long was Rome was around for 700 years? Yeah. So we're not even we're not even halfway there yet.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

Yeah, we're a pup. Yeah. Just a baby.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:47

I I gotta know this though. You kind of hit on it earlier. You went from a spa I'm not a spy because people will to being a soccer mom. How does that wait?

Balancing a CIA Career and Being a Mom

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

There was some crossover. It wasn't like you left, yeah, and then so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yeah. Well, I think I do a lot of mentoring with young women. And, you know, one of my favorite things to tell them is you can absolutely have everything, but you cannot have everything at the same time. And so that is a reflection of that reality. I was my last assignment with the agency was as our senior rep to FBI. I loved the assignment. The FBI is a great place to work. I, you know, loved my colleagues, but you know, I was into work usually in a skiff by 7 a.m., oftentimes not getting out of work until 6 or 6:30, usually sprinting, calling daycare, saying, I know I'm late, I know I'm late, I know I'm late. I'll pick, I'll be there in a minute, I'll be, you know, and getting fine,$25 for every minute you're late. I waited this long to have a child. He's my miracle baby. I adore him. And the only time we ever see each other is when we're both cranky. He's ready to go to bed. I'm, you know, and because he was four.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:09

He was like four or five at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Yeah, yeah. And realizing rotation of like every day. Exactly. And I realized all, you know, there, you know, I think one of the most humbling things and and important things about being a good public servant is recognizing, you know, you are not irreplaceable. There's no one that's irreplaceable, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:03:30

You're not special. Tomorrow. You are not special, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

You are not special. Someone new will be there tomorrow. Exactly. And I and I realized, hey, that's true of any job that I've been in and any job that I would be in. I also knew that as an SIS four in a senior position, you know, they had asked me, you know, at the time, Gina Aspel was the director. She was wonderful. So I knew that there would be something meaningful for me to step into, but it would come at a cost because I'd be traveling all the time. I'd be going overseas. And I thought, you know, I'm the only one that can be Matthew's mom. Like there's no one else, right? And so it actually was not a hard decision, surprisingly. And I think it wasn't a hard decision because yes, I am a soccer mom. I love it, actually. I I can't even believe, like, I have to say, I have not missed working in a skiff and work, you know, I missed the mission a little bit, but did you just turn it off though, of like watching a soccer game and you're not like analyzing the threats? Actually, the weirdest thing is going from reading the PDB and helping talk to the direct directory.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:41

Sorry, the presidential daily. Important thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

So reading people that need the details. You know, talking through and briefing with the the direct, you know, director Ray at the time. It was weird going. That was probably the the strangest thing is going from that to suddenly having no particular access to, you know, getting, as we used to joke, getting my intel updates from Al Roker every morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

You know, it's like we've seen this a lot. Actually, I'm glad you're pointing this out because I think personally that is the biggest struggle for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

It's a very weird thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

Yeah, because now even if you wanted Reddit on something, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

Oh no. Now I am, I have managed to keep my the agency held my clearance. I'm on a board for the hoping you're coming back. No, I really not. I don't, yeah, I'm not interested. Uh if you're listening, recruiters, it's still a no. It was great while it lasted. I was very fortunate, very blessed. But um, yeah, I don't miss it. And and you know, we haven't talked about this yet, but I mentioned at the beginning, we have stayed connected to our communities because we've found other ways to serve. And so I think I was able for you know to. maybe make that transition less painful by staying connected in that way and giving back to my community in a very different way. So it's worked for me. You know, everyone's, you know, everyone's transition is different. I was very lucky, probably because I knew I was transitioning towards something. I mean, I love being a science, I love hearing the boys chatting in the back. Like the two, nothing like listening to two 11-year-olds talk about girl. I'm like, oh my word.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

And you know and all the all the six sevens and all the God. It is hilarious.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:37

I don't know. It's a thing. I I don't know what it is. I mean I know I know they've tried to explain it to you. I know it but I don't know what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

You can't explain it because it means nothing. It's right. It's the most absurd thing ever.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:47

But you know something she said it's true because we we coached Matthew's Rex soccer team which is a which could be a which could be a a Netflix series in them.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

It should be a documentary.

Leaving the SEAL Teams

SPEAKER_07 1:06:56

But but you know one of the things yes it's the going from being aware of everything and read in on everything and feeling like you know it to to to nothing. But I you know what she mentioned about figuring out how to contribute. It's one of the things that I I say to folks often which is before you leave anywhere where you are in public service think deliberately about what you want your connection to be to your former community. Because it could be nothing. You may go to Asheville, North Carolina, make furniture and just like that's great. God bless go, right? Or you may be come back with a green badge as a contractor like or somewhere in between. But think about that before you leave. Don't leave and then feel that angst afterwards but you can't quite put your finger on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:44

Now you're not going to operate anymore. Like that's a young person's game. And so that's so so if you're yearning for that you need to do some more self-reflection because like we're all we all move on and go over that bridge.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

I have to ask both of you I know not to compare my career to either of yours by any stretch of the imagination, but when I was traveling a lot and very successful in my career, I felt like I was drowning as a parent. And I felt like so much self-judgment and so much like like I felt like such a success in in my professional setting and then on the soccer field or or my kids didn't do soccer, but on the sports fields or you know dance rooms like I felt judged heavily and felt like I was not I felt like I missed every email that the teachers were sending and and it was it was a all the signups for every activity for kids are in the middle of the day. I'm like I'm in a skiff to get out I can't get out in the middle of the summer when it doesn't make sense. Like you almost have to be in the inside knowledge or you know it just well you don't have the time to dedicate to that because that's just not something that's that's on your on your radar.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Yeah you're exactly right and that's absolutely as it we joke that we don't know how we like I don't know how I ever had a full time job.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:59

That's what I was going to say has it been well along those lines that's that's the other thing I always talk to folks about to get ready for part of it is you know your your world's going to be different because you're not going to have access to all this stuff anymore. But the other piece is what we found is you suddenly have control over your calendar. And that's in public service that's not something you're used to and and you may have a weekend off but you haven't planned anything because and and your kids aren't doing anything because you can't commit to that anywhere ahead of time. Yeah. So yes you're not at work that Saturday because you didn't get called in but there's nothing else to do. No. Right. And so all of a sudden you leave public service, even if you continue in industry like in industry you have a control over your calendar which is unlike anything in government.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:50

And so when all of a sudden you can say hey you know there's this concert in November or we're going to coach soccer family. It's like cancel it seven times and well and not have to eat the tickets right how many and you do that once or twice then you just stop making play so when all of a sudden you can look at your calendar and say what do we want to do? And we can do things like coach soccer and say you know what every weekend yep it's going to we're we're swamped but but we can do that. And so getting control of that part, that's not something that you're used to doing. And and you have to to your point Corey I you have to apply some effort to that to be able to like what are those inside tracks on how to figure out what to do and and fill that time up so that because I would argue recognizing the importance of not filling every minute up oh yeah. Not overscheduled we overscheduled still working on that one. Oh well I'm better.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

Yes overscheduling it can be a blank spot on a calendar. There's nothing I know I'm an over scheduled I feel you heard.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:56

I'm an overscheduling it gets twitchy if if there's a sitting around day he's gotten better and now he's found other projects he's yeah but that's important right it's important to sort that through and I think it it always pains me when you see somebody who has served his or her country for so long and they just run to the tape, run into the wall and then they kind of come out into the sunlight and it's like well what am I going to do now?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:19

And and they drift for a little bit. And you hate that because you want folks to to have that fulfilling next phase. But part of that is you know you you can now do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:31

And you're not used to that it's like well what's my mission it's like what's whatever you want to do man.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:35

It's okay. Yeah I remember I when I was I I still speak to some of the government about stuff and we were doing the little happy hour after one there was a guy who had just come into SAC new SIS and we were talking we're asking the questions about how's been retired and everything and you give all the same answers don't really miss the mission miss the people and everything else. And then he said he said you know he said I now he obviously was still a ways away from leaving you know because he had just gotten SIS but he said he said I don't know he said I just I I feel kind of selfish thinking about you know taking advantage doing all that stuff you're talking about. And I sat for a second I thought you know I get that you know when when you're in the people that are thinking about what their angle is for something or the ambitious ones they're the ones you avoid. Like you don't want to work with those folks right you want the folks that are mission first, people first, everything else, right? So you are your skill what you are conditioned to do through your whole career, all of a sudden now world's your oyster go. And you're thinking how do I do that? And so I I thought about it in the moment and it's what I've said to folks since which is okay I get it. If you try to think about transitioning from public service into the rest of your life regardless of the motivation if you're feeling kind of selfish and uncomfortable and awkward that I'm now going to say what I want and it's that's going to take precedence over whatever else is supposed to be out there. I said think about it as think about a good transition into your next phase of the adventure as your final act of public service because people will be watching it. You may not realize it but people are going to watch you go. And if you're a train wreck and and you stumble out that's not going to be something people are going to want to emulate but if you and again I don't care what you go do if you are fulfilled and you're content and you move out and you enjoy yourself there'll be somebody who will see that and think maybe I'll stick around this joint for a little while longer if that's the way if that's how you come out. I can remember in the 90s when I even when I first got to Damneck and you see some guys and you're like hey if that's the ghost of Christmas future I'm out man. Like that's not going to be me you know and so so if that helps you as your final act of public service do a good job put yourself in a good position to go enjoy the rest of your life because that's the that's that's the final thing you'll that's what you'll leave everybody with. And if that helps you do it and not feel selfish, then you're serving all the way out the door and now you've got yourself set up for a fun life.

Harry Potter Wisdom

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

And you know as I think you and I have both tried to do is find ways to stay connected to the kid community and find ways to contribute either on the way you can now in the way that you can now. I mean I joke all the time that when I I don't know if you guys are Harry Potter fans have you ever read the books one of our kids one of our kids is watching I am a very big Harry Potter fan yeah so we all I have this joke that you know when I was at the agency I was a Slytherin you know and that now that I am into like my post agency career I'm a Hufflepuff I know what a Hufflepuff is you don't know what a Slytherin but but I love it. And now you know we're finding different ways to support the community right and and give back our time and talent where we can and and that's actually a great feeling and in in a lot of ways right now there's you know a much great I feel like a much greater return on investment do especially working on the boards that we are supporting the communities that are transitioning or that are in need of support. Right. It feels in some ways even more imperative and more important than some of the work that I was doing before.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:53

So if I think back to the late 80s, the early 90s and you know still had Vietnam guys at SEAL Team 2 when I first got there. And not to put anything on previous generations, but I think this generation does see itself differently. Is it the rise of all the benevolent associations that came out of post island I don't know. There's probably a couple of different factors but I do feel like there is much more of a there's a difference a feeling of mentoring giving back and maybe it is the Vietnam experience that has showed that hey we need to stay in touch and maybe as the we get past well past the draft at this point, well into the all-volunteer force understanding what an infinitesimal amount of society actually serves across government, never mind the military or or the the the Intel community maybe there's that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:42

But I think there's been a cultural shift. That's more of a shift now you know even folks who have had full careers and retire don't see that as the end in the world right they're not suddenly putting on their sweater and slippers and they're they're reinventing that there's nothing wrong with slippers nothing wrong with slippers they spend a lot of time in slippers I I just I just don't want a label.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:06

I don't want a label okay we call those lounge clothes.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

Yes right pajama John Matthew's like it's our son is this a pajama day it's a lounge clothes day not a pajama day that's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:20

What advice could you give to organizations in recognizing that spouses can also have careers.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:30

Yes can I say this? Yep you got the senator and it's plus one I mean are you a senator?

Who is the Plus 1?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

No but that's yes some people have called me that some people have called you that you would make a great senator you would just she looked at Karen when she said that you may I may have I saw that I saw that I don't have the temperament I do not have the temperament but do that in politics but tell them the plus one comes plus one. To that point can you tell us about being a plus one or being perceived as a plus one.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

Yeah it's it's definitely difficult. My husband and I have all the love in my heart and all the respect in the world for my husband but he retired as a captain with all due respect with all due respect here it comes I would always love when the guys would say that you know it's like here so I'll tell you a story that is emblematic of what I think a lot of women particular tandem couples go through. It was when I was John Mulholland's deputy at the Associate Directorate of military affairs one of our collective favorite people and he could not go to an event it was it's a black tie event John Brennan who's the director of the agency at the time was there. I was the senior representative from ADMA associate directorate of military because John Mullen couldn't be there. My husband is with me is the plus one we are at the head table as God is my witness everyone is going up and introducing themselves to John and John is panicking because he knows I know there's gonna be a conversation at the end of the day I am like quickly approaching DEF CON yes my head's about to explode rightfully so but here's the absolute astonishing thing one of the people that did it was an African American gentleman who was the diversity inclusion representative from his university straight up and John kept turning to introduce everybody at the table to me even though I was introducing myself welcoming them this was sort of the VIP table it was extraordinary it was it was unique. It was it was striking it was striking because it wasn't just one person but what was everybody but what was great about it for me was that he finally understood what it feels like when I walk into most rooms and reason you have to re-establish your credentials every time every single time it it did not matter you know you can look at someone's res it wouldn't matter I would have to show up and reestablish each time reboot it was like I had never done anything pre previously in my career was the first time and I had to prove myself all over to my new cohort of colleagues.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:40

People may not know this but that's part of why in our intro we jokingly say I'm Herb's less hairy half because that's how people perceive me as so it it it is frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:52

Yeah I you know I do think it's getting better. I think there's more of a recognition on the you know the agency has smartly recognized the value of tandem couples. We do much better at figuring and working around nepotism allowing people to pursue two careers simultaneously because that was not in the past it was on you just first of all men and their spouses were there to be an asset for them. So very different.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:26

I feel you though do you like car ride home?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:29

I feel you brother yeah because I I've been there in a different case where she got called my plus one we were named the organization I will say this an organization we all know the reason that lit me up was because I'd had many conversations with senior leadership as an advisor to discuss how spouses could be more appropriately recognized. Yes and he had a first and last name as he approached the welcome table and I literally was called Herban is plus one plus one.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:02

No and I was like oh as soon as it happened although you you are the plus one.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:07

So can I tell you offensive the spy museum I'm on their advisory board oh yeah and I have kept a name tag because when he came to one of the first he had a name tag Mr Schaefer. So John Schaefer was like what's your code name I was like I am putting that on my God by pseudo and Chris Costa who I I think you may know Chris Costa but he's a a good friend of ours as well and he comes up and just burst out and I was oh my god Chris it's like I paid you to do this.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:44

I'm making points without even really doing anything all I did was put that name tag on and I'm making points.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

That time when they said plus I could see it on the paper and I was like it was literally written down and on the freaking name tag. Yeah and I was like oh I'm gonna I know I'm getting this one afterwards I just looked at him I made sure to give him your name I think I even did a proper neck crack and uh yeah but I understood why you're upset. When you have experiences like that that highlight just how baked in some of the stuff is yeah it's it's because we don't see that Diane you're blind to it's it just is a happening without any intentional it's right it's not nefarious no it's not nefarious it's the implicit bias. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:30

It's it's the implicit bias. And when you experience it you realize holy cow there's so many levels and so many ways in which this permeates society and unfortunately you know most organizations most institutions are created and the rules and the the procedures are developed by white men. So inherently there is just this projection and the sort of you know continuation of some of this and it's not intentional. It's you know if you sit down next to someone and you raise it with them they'll you know nine times out of ten they'll be like oh my God I never even thought of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

That's also the bias right deeply seeped tradition in leadership of the military as a spouse that you recognize your your position and or lack thereof. Or lack thereof. Yeah that's what I mean by recognize your position or the special forces is no different. It it is it's a it's a underlying cultural expectation that you fought back. You know and it is something that should not exist at all but also outside of the military once everyone has transitioned that's not the way they're playing it's not the way the rest of the world works.

How Karen & John Met

SPEAKER_07 1:24:52

Well and that's the piece yeah how did you two meet because at the time you're big are you allowed to talk about that you are a CIA spy same yes you make it sound so much more fun yes it's all in the intonation we originally met randomly assigned on a project and this was years before we wound up reconnecting and getting married but um we I was assigned to do a project in a part of the world where we were gonna have to work with these people and she was at headquarters um at the time and so col you know sort of colleagues you know for this project but but but competitors at the same time because you're having authorities discussions you're having you're kind of some gentle pushing back and forth on kind of you know what what the plan is what out what our idea of the plan is versus you know what's acceptable to the normal people and everything else right so and so that that was really that was the first time that we that we that we met. But it wasn't in sort of a a dating capacity or anything like that. And in fact I think I kind of annoyed her.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

I was asked Karen what was your first impression of John Well actually we were I so you've forgotten the very first time yeah yeah so so we worked on this project together for sure but there was also a cohort of young people at the time we were much younger than we are now that would go out sort of for interagency happy hours on Thursday nights so the first very first time I met him I was yeah he comes up to me and he said something like hey you look really really familiar and I said that's the pickup lug as God is my witness as God is my witness I'm terrible with names and she really did look to me and and I was dating someone at the time so we're really and I was like what?

SPEAKER_07 1:27:03

And I just said yeah no I don't know you no I remember what I remember her saying was I remember her looking at me and saying did you really just say that to me and that was when I realized I thought no no I mean honestly you really do look familiar I'm sorry I'm not saying it turned out we had seen each other on VTC but I I I thought he was cheap.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:26

For those that may not know that is one of the cheesiest most well known pickup lines that guys will at least at least back in you know back in the day I don't know what it is now in the 6-7 world I don't know if that works anymore but yeah well I can tell you in my days of living around bases in North Carolina it's it's it it's still strongly favorable before I'm at her not for me not for me it wasn't favorable.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:53

That is I love that you forgot the that until she reminded you he wanted to forget

SPEAKER_01 1:28:09

Oh, I mean, obviously, professionally, I will say this, and and I've told him this before, but I think I loved working with him. He was I'm ferociously biased now that I'm married to him, but at the time I was not. And I think he was, and I still think he is one of the most strategic and intelligent officers I've ever worked with. As much as we joke and we did have some seriously knocked down drag out fights about Title X versus covert action versus traditional military activity. But having said that, you know, figuring out, you know, I think he's very much of my ilk, very much mission first. And so figuring, you know, and and frankly, he's very good at at helping talk me down as I, you know, spiral. So so yeah, I really I very much enjoyed working with him. We got to be very good friends and we lost touch for a couple of years, but then when he was back up was when we reconnected and then you know, ended up sorry, John sticking around.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:14

Any of that, the recording stopped. It didn't happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:20

Sorry. It's there. I I would say the same thing. I mean, when you're working with people from different organizations, I even all the way through my time, I would say you probably came across a lot more folks in the military than I came across folks in the I mean, we did work a lot, but most of it was was with dudes. I mean, it was, you know, it was like she was not the type of person. And so, you know, I remember, I remember thinking, and it's so funny because she says she doesn't like public speaking. I would watch the way she is in a group, and this is exactly the way she is with her family and with her friends, right? She is that person that brings everybody together. That was one of the first things that struck me about her was that way and the way that people gravitate toward her, certainly because she knows her stuff. And she always says, you know, she's not the smartest one in the room, but she's always the most prepared, and that's very true. And you that's what you control, right? And so that's what she always says to folks. And so that struck me, right? Certainly the competence, but but it was that piece of being able to bring everybody together. And it's and it's not abrasive, right? It's not um overbearing, it's quiet. And I think that's the peace that everybody everybody is drawn to.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:32

Well, thank you. That's very nice. Love it. And I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:36

We got that on camera. We got it recorded here again.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:39

Excellent.

What They Value Most in Life

SPEAKER_05 1:30:41

We always end with this question though. We are at the end and we appreciate it. And I'll toss it up to whoever wants to go first. What do you value most in life?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:51

Easy for me. Family. Nothing more important than family.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:58

Yeah, I you know, I was so I agree, family. But when you first said that, the first word that popped into my head, what do I value the most? I value time. Now I think it goes right into family and friends, but in terms of it ain't anything else, right? It's time. Like at this point in my life, I value time. Because I don't know how much any of us has left. The people that I love, you know, the people that I want to be around, I have no idea. UDT Seal Association sends out a bunch of announcements, they'll send out breathing announcements. Yeah. And I remember when I was very young, I I I would I would always, when I was in high school, and again, this will probably speak more of me than some people, but I would love, I would always read the obituaries. I would. I would always watch and post.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:53

Sorry, I know that's not supposed to be funny, but that's no, it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:56

It is supposed to be funny. Don't worry about it. I would always read the obituaries. And so I don't know what the post looks like these days. I haven't probably touched an actual paper in years and years, but but the obituaries would always be laid out the the same way. So somebody big, page one above the fold, right? Your obituary is written already. Like just waiting for you to kick off and then boom, it's up the next day, right? But if you go to the obituary section, they're always it laid out the same way. So on the one page, the most, the luminaries, right, are top left. Big article, usually a picture. There's probably one or two of those almost every day, right? Somebody who was the head of surgery at UMass or Sloan Kettery, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And so you'd have the whole life and you'd have things, then survive by and everything else. And then you'd have the smaller ones that are just, it's an article, right? You know, it's somebody local, you know, the family wrote in or something, or was some kind of a local accomplishment. And then on the second half of the one page and the entire second page would be these little teeny boxes, they're like, right? Little teeny boxes, right? And it would be usually, you know, it's like a young person, you know, gone too soon, whatever, but it like the families were able either, if they get a picture in or not, but then as you get farther down, it would be folks who had been gone for a while. It's like the anniversary of their death. You know, we still miss you, grandma, or something like that. And I would, I would look through all of it. I mean, because it always fascinated me because it wasn't, it wasn't the luminaries that got me. Because I would, I remember even at that point as an idiot, thinking to myself, all that list of things this person did, like somebody else is doing all that shit now. Right? But then you look down and I remember thinking to myself, like, I want to be the person that somebody like 20 years after they're gone, like they're somebody's going into it, like no more newspaper, but somebody is going in, taking this kind of time to put that little box in there, right? So, and you know, when I get the bereavement announcements now from UDT Seal Association, some of them are the most wonderful biographies of folks. And they were in the Navy for like four years, and then they did all this other stuff. And, you know, whether they're whether they've got kids and grandkids and great-grandkids, or they were they lived, you know, single their whole lives, lived in the community, and that they thrived one way or the other, right? Like that's what you want. So I think what I value most now at 60, with more time behind me than in front of me, I value time the most.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:30

Appreciate your answers. We love you both.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:35

Subscribe, like, and comment, and don't forget to set those notifications. We'll see you next week with another special guest.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:42

Until then, on your journey.