Kicked Out of Delta Force And It Saved His Life | Gary Harrington

After reaching the pinnacle of military service, former Delta Force operator Gary Harrington was unexpectedly removed from the unit he had worked his entire career to join.

What followed was a battle with identity, purpose, failure, faith, and finding meaning beyond military service.

In this episode of The Not Special Show, Gary shares his journey from Marine Corps officer to Green Beret, Special Forces operator, Delta Force member, and later CIA officer during the early years of the War on Terror. He discusses Afghanistan after 9/11, counterterrorism operations, leadership, resilience, life in elite military units, and the personal cost of operating at the highest levels of national security.

But this conversation goes far beyond combat stories.

Gary opens up about losing the identity he had built around being a Delta Force operator, the struggles many veterans face after military service, and how one of the most painful setbacks of his life ultimately became one of his greatest blessings.

If you're interested in Delta Force, Special Forces, the CIA, Afghanistan, military leadership, veteran transition, personal growth, faith, purpose, and overcoming adversity, this episode offers a rare and honest perspective from someone who lived it.

Sometimes the thing we believe will destroy us becomes the thing that transforms us.

⏱️ CLICKABLE CHAPTER TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - Why Gary Is Special
01:51 - Marine Corps Office to Enlisted Green Beret
06:10 - Being a Green Beret
07:46 - Did He Like Special Forces or Delta Better
10:41 - Kicked Out of Delta Affected Him
12:47 - Difference Between Delta Force and Green Berets
17:39 - What Happened After He Got Kicked Out of Delta Force
19:59 - A Panic Attack Going to 5th Special Forces Group
26:23 - Going to Yemen Before the USS Cole Attack
31:01 - September 11th 2001
36:01 - Tora Bora and the Early Afghanistan War Days
41:09 - First Day at Special Forces, Delta Force or the CIA Stick Out
42:25 - Thank God I Was Kicked Out of Delta Force
45:00 - The Toll of a Legendary Career
49:46 - Advice Learned From Being in Rooms With the Best and Worst of Humanity
54:37 - The One Thing That Made Him Successful
56:12 - Giving Himself up to God
57:38 - Meeting the Love of His Life
01:01:51 - Being a Honest Rule Breaker
01:02:53 - How His Faith Evolved
01:07:11 - Giving Advice to Young Gary
01:08:12 - What Gary Values Most in Life

#NotSpecial #DeltaForce #GreenBeret #CIA #VeteranStories

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Gary, why are you special?

SPEAKER_04 0:03

I'm special because I was wonderfully made by a creator in heaven who pictured me and knew me before I was ever formed. And because of that, I'm special.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Yeah, we we think you're special. I love I love hearing the different answers and I love your take on it. But like you're special. Obviously, a green break from fifth group, that's near and dear to my heart. Delta IV, CIA, I'll say a legend. Also, you're a Marine Corps officer before all of that. And then there's much more we'll get into.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Oh God.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

I went to Marine Sniper Instructor School.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Oh, hey. You might actually be a legitimate sniper.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

I think you've earned just about every title that every person wants to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I joke because every Marine, not every, but so many Marines were snipers.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Yeah, everybody says that. And I I think probably I've been to more I bet I've been to more schools than any military guy. And probably if you took my all my years, I would be it'd be surprising how much of it was in school. So yeah, I went to Marine Corps sniper instructor school, had a great time, learned a great skill, never, never technically deployed as a sniper. I think in Panama I did one sniper mission.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

I'm Herb Thompson, a Green Bray and resolutionist.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's Less Harry Half and Branding Expert.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true. They are special. I think guys dream of doing one-tenth of what you've done. And you've done all of that, but you're like even more than that, and such a great human. But to go back, I think it's very interesting. You're a Marine Corps officer. Why make the switch to, you know, get out of the Marine Corps, enlist in the Army, and earn your dream beret?

SPEAKER_04 1:58

There's the human part of that, and then there's a faith part of that. On the human part, you know, I was a young guy. I started basing my self-worth on what I did in the military. So now I became a Marine Corps officer. I was like, oh, you know, my job to leave my men in a combat. I had this feeling that, you know, I was meant to be killed. Kind of goes back to a faith, you know, some of my faith thing and some me misreading how what I felt my purpose in life was. I I had low self-worth. So I thought, wait a minute, in this military thing, I have worth. I can do my job well. I end up getting killed because I don't do too well at this life stuff. That's my job. So I sought that in the Marine Corps through, you know, infantry officer, then recon. I was like, okay, what's that? And now then I wind up getting promoted to captain. And then they go, okay, your time is up down here on the pointy end of the stick. And now you've got to go do like all officers and do some staff time. Now I'm 26 years old. I've I've been to, you know, infantry officers course, amphibian school, special forces scuba school, mountain climbing school, marine scout sniper instructor school. So I was like, what? And now you want me to go sit in the city. You want me to go that? So I was like, no. And then one of my last deployments in the Marine Corps was to Honduras, a really short exercise in Honduras. And there, this was in the 80s, early 80s, I ran into a base there where guys from the agency and some special forces trainers had been training people. And I said, wait a minute, here's a place where there's guys actually doing it. And in the 80s, the only thing going on in the military for US military was what SF was doing in Central America. I said, okay, that sounds pretty good to me. You made the jump. Made the jump.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I'll tell you what I told her ahead of having this conversation. Just in a few moments of meeting and speaking with you previously prior to today. It seems like it m fits you so much more in my mind to see you as special forces than a Marine. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but you just you it seems to really be the embodiment.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Wait until I show you this picture that's going to pop up on the screen. It's Gary in his Marine Corps uniform.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I can't wait to see it because my brain's having trouble here.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Yeah, that was it.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I mean, that mustache is fit to fight.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Like it is.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yeah, part of what you said always at most means like, okay, kind of you're you're kind of a jerk, so you're probably better enlisted.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

I don't mean that in a negative way, but you know, as special forces, not really liking authority. Yeah, that that kind of fits me.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

So many people that have met from special forces are so they're so adaptable, they're so smart, and they are so humble. And so many of you are so soft-spoken. There are some outliers to that, of course. But when I think of Marine, I think of large and in charge and like they're gung ho and they're out there and they're in your face and they're gonna let you know they're a marine. And I just never got that from you.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

I got more of the alternate side of the Yeah, the the mustache was kind of my statement of uh You're rebelling. Yeah, like I'm not gonna totally buy into everything that you say.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Most of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

What was it like being in fifth group and then Delta Force? Much different than the Marine Corps. Um, but what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_04 5:59

The I think the biggest thing for me was the the the trust put in the NCOs in Special Ops. In regular special force, my first special forces group was seventh group. You know, I it was just to me so different there as a platoon commander in the Marine Corps, you know, you drove training and you ran training. And it's true that the majority of the people that I had working for me, even in recon, were sent there. It wasn't something there was a big selection for back in those days. And they were specially chosen and trained and for they went to MFIB Recon school, but it it was still top-driven. And then in Special Forces, it's like, gosh, you've got all these professionals, and you take the leash off of them and let them train and and do that. And especially to be honest, in in Delta, you know, most hits, it's the NCOs that run it. Like, for example, if you're gonna take down a plane, it would be the enlisted guys would do the assault and take the plane down, and then the officer would come below the plane, and then when it's clear, you call them up. You know, I'm you know, maybe that's not gonna be the case in every time, but it's just for me, it was so different than what I had been trained of as uh in the Marine Corps.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

No, it that is such a huge difference. Did you like being in like special forces group better or in Delta? Because different, totally different mission sets.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Totally different mission sets. I think there's a lot of aspects to that. If you ask my first ex-wife, she told me I, you know, I we'll probably talk about that some down the road, but I got kicked out of Delta Force. And after I did, my wife told me, Thank God you're out of that. And I go, what? What what do you mean? She said, when you were in regular special forces, you'd be gone for four months, and then you'd be back home, but you'd be home in a decent hour, we could adjust to life, you were around. And then we got used to you being gone for a while and we developed our routine. But when you were in Delton, she said, like you left the house at 4:30 in the morning and you came back at six or seven, one or two nights a week, you'd stay and do night training, or you'd disappear for ten days and then you'd come back. And she said the family never get in a routine that my routine kept everybody off any kind of stability. And I it kind of shocked me because I guess I'd been so focused on you what I was doing that I didn't really consider that impact. As far as liking it, I think we're all driven, or a lot of us that wound up in special ops are driven by that uh thing called the inner ring. Like, you know, I came to into special forces. I'd never heard of Delta Force. But after I'd been there a while, I started hearing about guys talking about, well, you know, there's this thing, and there's, you know, it's Delta, you can't really say it out loud. But one day, and I was on a scuba team, which are very fit teams, and we were all very fit. But all these guys were like, one day I will train to get in shape and try out for Delta.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

And I was like, It's the most in shape scuba team is by far the most in-shape team in a special forces company.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Uh maybe not in lifting, but every other way. It piques your interest, and you're like, Well, you what do you mean there's something like this out there than others? Yeah, that yeah, and and we all want to peek under the tent. You all we all want to be a part of something that's special or elite. And you know, not all that's you know, in retrospect, when I look back, positive. Because why is that? Because then I can look to my left and right and go, well, maybe I'm better than this person. As someone who was overcoming growing up with low self-worth and all, I okay, I fed off that. I I wanted it. So yeah, when I finally made it into the Delta, yeah, I thought, I've done it now. There's no higher. I've achieved it all, and I've proven myself. So I was very self-satisfied.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

How long did that feeling last?

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Well, probably till I providentially was kicked out. Uh you look at stuff? It's a shock and a kick. And here, I built my entire self-worth and being on that.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

And and now that's gone. It causes you to a question yourself. B it causes other people to question you. People that have looked, you've had a stellar career in everything you've done, and now like, oh yeah, you're in Delta Force. Wow, great. But wait, why are you here now? And then it's like you go from, oh, you must be a hero to oh, you must be a piece of crap.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Hero of the zero.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Yeah, hero of zero. You know, that's when you have to start, you know, rebuilding yourself and saying, okay, just judge me on what I do.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

I I find it fascinating though, because now I feel people talk about their time in Delta or their time after Delta a lot more freely than they did. But at the time, I don't think it was probably as discussed. But I've heard from so many people that have experienced that that you don't leave willingly.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Gary left extra unwillingly. But it's serious, you hear that a lot across a lot of the No, he's like it's it's hard to I think in any at least my outside perspective, I've never been in the unit, when you're at the tip of the spear at extreme alpha level, it's hard to leave that on good terms because then you're no longer a part of that.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

But even since then, I think it's a different tool. It's like for me after I was in the agency and started dealing with with certain conflicts and how is special forces going to be incorporated into this when you're looking at that. Well, everybody wants to say, well, it'll be with JSOC. And I'm like, uh, well, wait a minute, that's using a Phillips head screwdriver on uh where you need a standard screwdriver. Because if it's working by with and through, we need to go to the special forces team that's in that area.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

I'm glad you said that. For those that may not know, what's your very simple answer of what's the difference between the special forces mission and the Delta mission?

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Special Forces, I want to say I want to say prior to the Gulf, the global war on terror, because that has shifted a lot. Sure. Prior to that, you know, special forces, we're all really good at the basic skills. People used to think, well, in special forces, what kind of special training and special this do you have? No, that's not the backbone. The backbone of a special forces team guy is you just it's shoot, move, and communicate, but you do those to a very high level of proficiency. So you can be land anywhere and adapt that those skills to any mission and environment and use it. And yeah, special forces is built to work with indigenous people, whether you're doing a mission to train a host nation military, or on the flip side, where you're working with you know part of a partisan group to do unconventional warfare.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

If I could, real quick, I once told Jay, shout out to Jay, his group commander, and I was like, We're we're not great at anything, but we're good at everything. And he was like, I absolutely agree with you. Don't ever say that again because it's not good for marketing and uh getting missions.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

But I think but jack of all trades really does fit. And when you deploy somewhere like we did in the early days of Afghanistan with task force dagger, you do have to be a jack of all trades. Those that aren't. And and unfortunately, I think somewhat to our detriment, special forces, everybody chased after Delta. Prior to the global war on terror, the closest you could get to combat would be to do close quarter combat training in a building as a Delta Force or SEAL Team Six guy, where you're shooting right beside each other, you know, using breach and charges. It's the closest thing to the real thing that you can get. So everybody kind of wanted to chase that, and we did. And even in the agency, I think it came to this point where everybody wants to emulate JSOC and go where you have deployments, you have your team area, you have a cafeteria, you have a gym, you have your activities, and then a couple nights a week you're gonna jock up and you're gonna go do a hit and come back. And people got used to 90-day deployments because tier units, you know, they they tend to rotate in a shorter period of time. In the old days in Special Forces or Vietnam and some of the earlier agency engagements overseas, you went and it was you were there for a long slog. And nothing that I I read about people, you know, on their umpteenth combat deployment to Afghanistan and Iraq. Most of those people, they were short deployments.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

And I think about the guys in Vietnam, you know, uh a tour was a year, and some of those people did two tours, three tours.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, and they're two, three years constantly living it.

SPEAKER_04 16:20

Right. And you didn't have come back to the kind of comeback that that we did now, even with the guys in those combat zones. So I I think that's kind of like for me the biggest difference. They're both great and good to use, but they they have different purposes.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

Now I think we we just everybody thinks JSOC is the most elite. Everybody wants JSOC. And to be honest, a lot of guys in the agency, we start, let's let's go JSOC, let's get JSOC. Like, hey, wait a second. Yeah. They're not the answer for everything.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

A lot of people do think if it's that natural wrong. Like I've heard your regular army, go to Rangers, go to SF, go to Delta, right? And it's like, well, that's not they're different. All of them are different, but so many people just see it as that ladder. I guess it's just human nature to kind of rack and stack them. And the higher you get up there, probably the better funding, the better missions, the better.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Yeah, the better. I mean, that's one of the big reasons the Marine Corps put its element into SOCOM was because of the money. Because I was against it when I was first coming online. I was like, why are you gonna ruin recon this way? And he said, it's the money, it's the the access you get for equipment and training.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Definitely. So you you leave Delta, you go back to a special forces group?

SPEAKER_04 17:42

I I left Delta and I I helped write the CQB manual or the the Sephardic manual.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Um don't ask me to say Sephardic because it's such a long acronym. I used to mess it up all the time.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

Yeah. I don't I couldn't either.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

It's it's for Shoot House, CQB, close quarters battle.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

SF had to make it a very long-inducing name.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Right. And then I went to Norfolk and worked at the the Naval Safety Center in the Army. I was the Army's dive safety rep. So with the Navy guys, I would go, like I'd team up with one or sometimes a small group of us, and we go to some area of the country or a part of the world, and any U.S. military command that had diving or dive equipment, we would do inspections.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Gary, your career is like the charcuterie board of military. And not just military, like the all things facilitated or in and around. It's really fascinating. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

It is, right? Like some of that, I didn't know that. Yeah. But you could also say that it sounds like you couldn't get along in one place very long.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

And uh you know, there might be some of that.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Then after that, which was a very interesting job where you st they sent you back into Special Forces.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

Yeah, I went to fifth group. That was funny because this dive safety job established it, made it more known, and we had traveled around the world. There was a guy in Okinawa who I did the inspection out there, and he's like, wait a minute, your job is you travel around the world and do this? Yep. And he was overdue to rotate out, uh, knew the detailer, the E8 sitting at the desk that did this assignments. Of course, I had a big black mark beside my name because of getting kicked out of Delta Force. Matter of fact, the Army had tr put a bar to me re-enlisting just like a a year before.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Really?

SPEAKER_04 19:54

That guy goes, Yeah, okay, we'll pull him out of his slot early because I wasn't due to rotate. And I suddenly got orders, you're going to fifth group. Wound up in fifth group. Working for the commander that kicked me out of Delta.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Really? How did you handle it? No, the same commander?

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Yeah, same guy. Oh, yeah, please ask this, because I'm very curious on this.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

How did you handle that? Like if you had already had the you know struggles that you mentioned with your self-worth, what did that do to you internally to have to deal with that?

SPEAKER_04 20:28

It caused me a lot of anxiety. I I I didn't know this. That back I'm so old that back then we didn't know we had things called anxiety attacks. Yeah, I I started skipping school in high school because I would have a panic attack. I didn't know what I it was, but I knew I couldn't breathe. And then I skipped one time and then like it felt good. So I just started skipping a lot. Told him going to fifth club. Okay, Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And then, well, who's the commander there? You know, like what? This is this person whose last words to me were really not I love you. Not really not kind. Well, this is punishment, you know? And uh so it's coming. And you had to sign in when you went to group in the little headquarters building where his office was. I was terrified I was gonna see him. I mean, I was really anxious.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

No crap, like scared.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Yeah, really scared. Combat, none of those, n those things won't scare you, but you impugn my reputation or who I am or my character or morality. It just tears me apart. But I didn't see him and was sent down to my battalion, so went to work uh in uh for Terry Peters.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

How did you handle that just emotionally, I guess? Like, did you give yourself a pep talk every day to like build your obviously the time doing the other jobs, but to where you start believing in yourself again.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

It probably took a while because everywhere you go, when you're with once I had that mark against me, right off the bat, you know you have to prove yourself. And in some ways that led to me, that desire to prove myself probably led me to overreach in certain areas. And you know I never made excuses like your team sergeant, team command people ask you, boy, you seem like a decent guy. Your record's really good. What happened? And there's no use in going into that. Yeah. Because it's a he said, she said, I go, hey, you know, just look at my record and judge me on what I do. It taught me that maybe I shouldn't prejudge people and give people a benefit of a doubt until they prove to me what's different. And so I just tried to be the best team guy I could. Now I was a little bit of an oddball as a as an NCO on a team because I've been a captain in the Marine Corps. I'd been through a lot of other stuff and and done a lot of things. You're like probably got more training, more experience than any team sergeant that I came across and poor team leader and all. But I you know I really tried to work for them and do the best job I could just as a team guy and did that until the fateful day that I got a call. Did I get a call or did the company commander get a call? Somebody got a call from the group commander and said please send Sarn First Class Harrington up to my office to see me. Now I'm terrified.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

No, I was gonna say that's never like oh this is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

He's give me a hug.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

Yeah yeah here's the guy who yeah that yeah who swore he was going to get me put out of the army um so I thought well okay I guess it's on here we go and I went up there he talked to me a while a little bit nothing about anything in the past and then he asked me to take on a new project to kind of help lead the way back into unconventional warfare some stuff related to what was then being known as the Advanced Special Operations Techniques course and how to incorporate that into unconventional warfare. And you know I was like okay wait a second um you want me to help you do something? Okay. And I left and I thought well that was strange that's I I and to be honest I was confused. I probably to be honest was angry a little bit like like have a little resentment? Yeah like what human nature yeah human nature right like I'm good enough now right yeah and it's I dealt with it. It came along at a good time so then off because this is pre-911 right pre-911 probably talked to me in 97. Went to fifth group in 96. So then I I go off to ASOT in early 98. Now it had just happened that my first wife had left and with the kids in late 97 so I had time and I didn't want to think about any of that. So hey give me some projects and um I'm all on it in a compartmentalized time. Yeah time to put my focus on that and not not the other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

And that does that lead you doing some of that advanced special operations techniques into Yemen before the USS coal?

SPEAKER_04 26:01

Yeah it did we we uh we got introduced at the premiere for the coal thing so yeah I I went to the ASOT got I don't know lucky I guess you would say at the school and pulled off a couple things that people thought were unique and uh couldn't couldn't be done. I don't know how, but the folks at Tampa at Soxyn found out about me asked me to do this mission into Yemen. I love how you said that they asked me that's well yeah they could you have said I mean I guess but okay here I am here's a person who you know my whole life I wanted to seek excitement venture combat thought I finally hit that when I made Delta and now I'm I here I am being chosen for something special maybe I'm not a piece of crap. Maybe I do have worth and maybe other people see that I have worth so yeah if you did I'd have signed on for anything at that point if you told me that I'm chosen above everybody else to to do this which which was the case.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

So is that how you got introduced to working more in depth at that point with the CIA?

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yes and part of my preparation before going over there I got introduced you know I came to DC got introduced around and then went but but it was funny because nobody had ever a special forces person had never deployed I'm in the embassy and I I wait get my job I worked out of the defense attache's office and then I bring up this paperwork that says Sergeant First Class Harrington is authorized to conduct these activities and I showed it to the defense attache. He laughed and you go oh no you're not in the Army there's only certain people that work for the DIA that are are allowed to do that. Could we generically classify that as what people probably typically say as spy stuff yeah what would be in the old days terms kind of that's I was the the first one to be able to employ some of that stuff in pursuit of establishing security for Americans that came later on. Threw me out laughed and and threw me out of the office. So I waited and then you know I'd learned by this time give it some time get my ducks in a row take a look at the regs come up with a different way to to phrase things and pick your time and come back at them. So I did that. Speak their language just like a green beret right yeah well that's one green beret way sometimes green berets are very much like Rangers and Marines. We'll have our bad days or good days. You get the job done at the end of the day so yeah and then they sent me to talk to the other people that conduct intelligence activities in Basted you gotta be kidding us. That you're gonna yeah so what did they think you were there for to help facilitate other Green Berets to come into the country. I eventually worked it be to stick my toe in the water I guess and that and again that was the first uh special forces deployment where anybody did that.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

I did that and then hooked up with a team that did the demining mission that came in a few months later uh down in Aden. After Yemen people were happy and they said oh now let's try this with this new thing. So there were then they created a mission Kuwait for somebody to go do this. And they said well you're the only person with experience so now you've spent all these months over there would you go to Kuwait for a year and of course you know I'm like let's go and off I went to Kuwait and I worked there did that for a year an ODA from fifth group that came to Camp Doha that had some folks that were what they call level two ASOC guys. I sort of directed them and we we just put together some products that were used by the bigger Intel community and that kind of got me a little bit known in those communities finished that a year there and came back to fifth group January 2001.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Hey before we continue hit subscribe right now for more great stories for more great guests coming up January 2001 September 11th happens.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Yeah how did that change you on 9-11 I was on my way I lived in a farm place called Herndon Kentucky outside Fort Campbell and I was on my way to the Nashville airport to go TDY to set up an exercise where some guys from fifth group were gonna go to Jordan and do an exercise with JSOC I was listening to the radio and I heard the news of the first plane hitting and I'm like oh that's odd that doesn't sound right and then I started working through my head okay how could I accent because small planes yes but a commercial airliner if it was indeed a commercial airliner you have a pilot co-pilot and UZ on takeoff a flight engineer sitting there. So that's three people that are capable of doing something how that'd be hard. And in those days people hadn't heard about bin Laden except in Delta my time in Delta we did classes on terrorism and the development of terrorism and and we knew of bin Laden and what Al-Qaeda was so I was like maybe but I had a little bit of time so I was like I got a little bit of time so I jumped into a little diner that used to be right by the intersection of how you'll remember Highway 24 and the road that goes by post yeah there was a little tiny it was a red colored diner with a gravel parking lot and I went in there and they had a little black TV on the counter I said turn the TV on and pulled it up and within a couple minutes after we turned it on saw the second plane hit. I mean I said well that's it it's it's terrorism and then I'm hearing about planes but I didn't get on the highway and go to Nashville to the airport. I turned I would just went to group in my with my suitcase packed and went to group.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

I think it was pretty immediately announced too that all flights were grounded so it probably didn't make sense for you to go to the airport again I think it tells your mindset of like that exercise isn't happening anymore.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

This is now priority number one.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah because I knew okay it's it's gonna be al-Qaeda it's gonna be Middle East it's gonna be fifth group yeah your brain just connected that's actually I think Colonel then Colonel Mulholland our first guest on the show said they he knew pretty quickly it was he's like it was bin Luton he walked in and said that he had been on a run and walked in and was faced with the news and Miriam was telling him you know some of the rundown and immediately knew the same thing. He was like here we go.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Yeah and and that's how it was and for fifth group guys I think for professional military it wasn't b as big of a shock and maybe especially somebody that knew about terrorism I'd face that with USS Cole. In the coal where I knew about terrorism the ambassador nobody else in the embassy did so you know they they didn't want to listen warnings.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

They should have known right but when 9-11 hit then if you have the mission and you are prepared just like if you go through a checklist when you go to a public venue, if a mass shooting happens you already know what you're gonna do. So I think those of us that were had that responsibility we knew what we were going to do. It's like okay I don't know where or what but I know we have to get ready to deploy.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

And everybody in fifth group turned to that so while the rest of my relatives and friends and everybody I knew and the most of the nation are in chaos and panicking and not understanding where the world was inside places like Fifth Group and I'm sure some other places around it was a very focused, super intense atmosphere of people like, well we spent our lives getting ready for this.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Aaron Ross Powell It's just such a testament hearing you phrase it that way it's such a testament to the power of the U.S. military of you know applying all of those you know particular details and trainings so that when those moments hit you're ready.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

I think we say like you don't need a powerful man. You know they say break glass in case of emergency for us at that time it was like okay yeah they're gonna be breaking they're breaking the glass so we don't know what but we're gonna go do some you end up moving forward through Karshi Kanabad which I've been at very lovely place.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

And then Afghanistan early days like Tora Bora days of chasing after bin Laden and you got to do some very unique special force stuff.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Then Colonel Mohal and I um by that time had a trusting working relationship and he asked me to be eyes and ears or you know he he said in that one TV show go to guy that you go with these agency teams and go figure out what they're doing and let me know advise me if I should give them special forces should send them in. So you were going in advance of actual teams just you with a few agency guys like well like we saw there there was the movie was it 12 strong so that's all about the SF guys that went in. They don't talk much about it. The the jawbreaker agency team went in first and then got everything set up and then the SF guys came in on top so what I started doing was going in with those agency teams and then would advise Colonel Mulholland about if there was a job sure every agency team wanted SF guys. You come with combo guys, you come with medics you come with guns. So and calling in air support with the case and and yeah and the air support that comes with that. So they all wanted them. Colonel Mulholland wanted to make sure that well there's a mission for my men to do there. So he asked me to make sure in the cases where I was used that that was followed. So yeah I I I did Torabora with one agency team then I did Coast with the next agency team and then I split off and went and opened up a place called Ergoon at the time that was it long story but I I it was my idea to open that base up for Operation Anaconda I split off then went to a different agency team and so then I came that was the end so I had gone in in the early days of fifth group I think I went in Afghanistan in November early November and then came out in April but by that time the agency had asked for me for me by name to come do some stuff in a Middle Eastern country to prep for for the war with Iraq.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So how torn were you once you got home? Did you feel like you had to get back or were you happy to be home?

SPEAKER_04 38:43

Probably took leave and and went to see my kids and had a vacation with them but then it was okay I've got a a new mission a new chance and something even more secret and cool and and and somebody's asked for me by name. I'm still fighting you know trying to prove myself and my worth and now I've been asked for by name of everybody in the whole military I was asked for so the Army loaned me uh for two years to the agency and so I did some pre-Iraq stuff then Iraq stuff and came back to fifth group Fort Campbell to retire in 2004.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

So once you retired it sounds like it was just a natural transition you'd probably formed a lot of relationships in the agency so is that what led you to the next steps to go into working with them?

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah a lot of relationships in those last two years I was kind of a unique I I worked with non-paramilitary people and paramilitary people so I had both sides and I chose to come into the agency on the non-paramilitary side. I kind of looked at it I was like I was already in my late 40s and I was like how many more years can I be carrying this gun and you just start hurting off when you said that well yeah I I I I was like I'm good to go for another you know few few 10 but I don't want to be that guy eventually towards the end of my career that's desperately trying to hang on.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

The guy that gets a surprise retirement party.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

Yeah so I chose the other side and then I and I thought by that time I'd had 15 years being deployed and doing a lot of unique things and really no life and I thought well Gary you're destined to be that burnout old guy that done a lot of stuff but but just a burn out person. If you do this other way you can you know maybe end up in a relationship you can have a semi-normal life so I that appealed to me for that reason. But and then still serve your country.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yeah maybe you not one of those days stick out but like reporting to group reporting to Delta Force reporting the agency did any one of those days kind of stick out as memorable when you're like oh I'm here yeah you know I think every one of them at that time you think so I didn't grow up thinking about the military.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

I wound up in the Marine Corps and then wow I wound up in Raycon and then I wound up in special forces and then uh Delta yeah was the first yeah really big satisfaction and then I have to admit that you know the agency felt good too. Now it wasn't as strange to me at the time because of my as it was going walking in Delta the first day but it was a a good sense of satisfaction justification that I've done it and there's a lot of guys that didn't get kicked out of Delta that that haven't made it.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

So have you ever reflected back to like if you hadn't left Delta would you have had those opportunities that then came forth through being a group guy that then set you towards the pathway for the CIA?

SPEAKER_04 42:25

The reflecting back I've done is I I thank God that I was kicked out of Delta. I firmly believe that that's his plan for me. And often his plan involves things none of us would ever choose for ourselves and I certainly didn't I I thought my life was over. I mean I thought that was it you know my spiritual life would not be what it is I I you know I commend the people that that had spent their careers there and retired from there and God bless them but that wasn't me and I'm I don't want to be living on that that that I don't want my life to come to an end and what's the biggest thing you ever did I was adult force guy or some people special forces guy or a recon guy or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

People you may have met them that like they still talk about their glory days of being a high school quarterback and winning the championship and it's I I had my dad I was telling him about something like I just got back from my first special forces diploma I think and he's like yeah remember that time he scored six touchdowns I was like as a 12 year old I'm like what are you not comprehending here?

SPEAKER_04 43:43

Like this is no I'm not living on it but I think it's that right a lot of people it is and and and again I do believe God has a plan for us. I I thought that my role in life for a I spent a lot of time thinking that me and relationships, uh family, all that, we're not meant to to I'm not meant to have that. So I thought that if you're willing to risk your life or give your life and you apply yourself hard enough and willing to to you have a really strong will that you can make yourself into this heroic figure that and and yeah you the the price is you probably you may not live but wow you know that's a good way to go out none of us ever plan on getting old or getting injured having to live that way yeah I that's how I I guess I look back at all those things.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

God definitely had a purpose in that direction for you. Was there an emotional toll though on that side of your work from you know now it's different from the emotional toll it may have taken on you in your time and group?

SPEAKER_04 45:00

I think for me uh emotional toll maybe a spiritual matters a physical toll emotional toll all those come together I I hadn't had an anxiety attack in a lot of years doing all those cool things right in the agency once I was in a country where I was running an operation case targeting a top al-Qaeda guy. The pressure was intense you've got everybody all the senior levels of the NSC the presidents getting briefed all the senior people back in the agency are breathing down your throat all the time and I was in a unique thing where I was the sole focus for a lot of that that started bringing up things because I started having to deal with people and careerist and opinions and all the bureaucratic things that come with that. You know you dream of you're gonna get something like this and then you get it and like you got to take the whole thing. And there's a bunch of baggage that comes with it. And so I was ended up caught between very let's just say the top levels in the US government and being in the crosshairs between them. Somehow I got known as a as a straight shooter somebody you could go to or something and there had been an issue where I worked between an employee and and a supervisor and I think a psychologist or investigator somebody came to dig into that and then they came and talked to me and he said well we're told that you're the guy that'll give the straight scoop and after talking to him I started having this pain in my stomach and then in my shoulder and then started having trouble trouble breathing. I went to the restroom and I thought am I getting sick? And then when I started feeling pain in my shoulder I thought oh my God could I be having a heart attack I went down to the nurse's station and I guess I had gone into an anxiety so severe that it put me in shock so my blood pressure dropped off the they they couldn't get an IV six times they tried to get an IV, couldn't you know wound up heart out of rhythm, stuff like that. So you were sending yourself an AFib basically sounds sounds like it so the anxiety that I have that after that so that and then later in the agency a few times it was just odd things like you think again if nothing about combat or any of that scares you or those kind of conflicts like one time counseling somebody over their evaluation and them pushing back I had to ask them to leave the office and lay down on the floor the lights out because I was uh going in but so it I get those things don't really leave you.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Right. I was gonna say so on the other side of that when you're at home even now are you able to really disconnect from that or do you find yourself in some of those old habits that could stir up that anxiety?

SPEAKER_04 48:30

There have been a lot of changes spiritually with me. I think I trust and lean on God a lot more that gives you a different kind of strength but but always just talking and we're talking about my past and history, right? So right now in the pit of my stomach I have a tightness. Sure. It I you know I feel that tension there it'll be fine and I can deal with it but doesn't go away I think but you learn to control it and as far as like heart issues yeah I I think there's a long term deal. I had surgery last week for the this same thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

Yeah I forgot to tell you that thank you for being here today my god like you know just stop I think there's just long term things that your body you know that's so true.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

I know it sounds cliche but your body keeps a score you know you hear that and it's so true and you were taken in a lot from all angles so it's not surprising to me that that has had a long term impact and I'm sorry to hear that you're still working through that.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

It's easier and and now I have a solution. You know that's that's my faith.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

You've been in rooms with some of the best people in the world and some of the worst people in the world. What advice would you have for the audience because you've seen both sides of the coin of very good and the most evil and dealt with a lot of people in a lot of situations.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

Like I've sat across from Taliban guys and and al-Qaeda guys and yeah the the Al-Qaeda prisoners that I searched and was up face to face with in Tora Bora, those were a different kind of bad you know they they were just gone. Their eyes you looked in it was vacant and the only thing that was there was hate. There's the only thing that existed so it was like all their humanity was gone. Other guys like a Taliban guy you you you could find ways to reason with them. So even people I think like now in the US we're so divided on such opposite things and I'm like wait a minute if I could sit across from a Taliban guy that we fought on opposite sides of an Anaconda.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

I'm smiling because Herb says that frequently if I could sit down and have that conversation and reach a resolution then surely this circumstance can be resolved whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Right or or at least like we agree to disagree yeah and I mean that can still be a resolution.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yeah well no it leads me to kind of you talk about your faith and I know it's evolved for you but how did you as you're looking and I I know what you're talking about you look in someone's eyes they're vacant it's just pure hate and evil and there's no there ain't no change. I mean some people out there may say there's no change in it.

SPEAKER_04 51:29

How did you balance that with like your faith and who you are well I I guess I'd be interesting to see how I would do that now as opposed to those years ago. But like yeah I I thought we we took those prisoners in Torobora right after Mike Spann had been killed. The orders from the military were no U.S. personnel special forces will get involved with a prisoner. You do not go near a prisoner and you don't touch them. I was the only one that had training some special training in that I had in Delta about handling people to prevent what happened with Mike Span happening. So I I said okay I I'm gonna do it and yeah at first I thought we should just kill him I mean why but the mission is to process them see if there's any intelligence value in them you just you kind of have to put that away even one guy when I was searching him I had you know I would search him and I had a guy covering him and the deal was wait you search properly is they're off balance and if he starts to fight me all I have to do is pull back a little bit on his hands and he's gonna go on the ground then the other guy's supposed to shoot him in the chest. But I decided not when he started to fight back that okay I yelled at the other guy don't not to shoot so I we wrestled a while says so casually well yeah like I you know it probably wasn't helped me some he was also wounded so yeah it causes your humanity takes over so for me thank God and then another time in Afghanistan the guy that we pretty much believe was responsible for Nate Chapman's death I plotted to kill him for a while non-judiciously basically I was just gonna I kill him then I looked at all the ramifications and the blowback to the military and the agency and everything else didn't then I found a way where I felt I could kill him and it would be justified so I was gonna do that and somebody stopped me. You know I now look back on those and I I I hope those were times where God didn't allow me to go through with my plans because they're wrong. Murder is murder whether it's somebody that deserves it or not you can't do that. So if I was going back through that now with my faith I think I would still be as competent and good at my job as I was I I would not ever lose sight of my my faith.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Checks out Liberty Speaks you need a speaker for an engagement or brand partnership with content creators hit us up at Liberty Speaks. I didn't put the W's in there or the website we've done a lot of legendary work I mean truly and I mean that I think that word gets thrown around too often these days by the kids but like you are a legend.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

One thing has made you who you are maybe you haven't changed and it's like your core and it's made you be able to accomplish all this well I think unfortunately I as I said before I was probably driven for a while. Yeah I was always known as a good guy a kind guy guy that would help anybody not a godly guy secret believer I guess who'd go through your life I I I still think at this point that God's hand was there and on in all that and all those things because I had we've talked a lot about my successes you know but you know and we've talked about I got kicked out of Delta Force I had a wife up and leave me take my kids and leave me with while I was gone I had that happen a second time in the agency. It's not funny but it's well you know you know we find humor in it there's gotta be but but I was a strong driven person and every time I built myself back up and drove myself to that but it was all me. And now I understand that anything that I build and God I think has proven that to me anything that you build it's not lasting and it's not meant and it's not what my purpose for you is. So it's it it really isn't until I was ready to bend the knee and bow and accept serve you know a savior as my Lord and say I bow to you and I give my life to you that then things started falling into place. And I I think that was the ultimate purpose of all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

And how has that impacted your your personal life today? What has that allowed for today?

SPEAKER_04 56:37

Well I'm finishing this month my second year as a fellow at the C.S. Lewis Institute which is a uh great educational but intense discipleship program. You know my goal now is to try to use whatever's left in my life to you know bring salt and light into the world and to to live my life uh the way that we were commanded to do.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

And has that allowed you to find a special someone?

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Well some a special someone and I met at church that's Kim yeah just one of those things I had given up I said well God uh you know I was by this time seeking God pursuing God and I was like clearly I screw it up with relationships. I didn't plan on giving up on relationships but if you in order to be obedient to you I'm done you know I'll wait and then suddenly one day in church there was this woman standing in front of me saying you know excuse me you know just before church started and I was like you need this seat I'll I'll move you know because I'm the one guy there and she said no I I came to introduce myself to you as the pastor had instructed us to do and also you know that ultimately led to a coffee which was a coffee 11 years ago and it hasn't stopped and we are now married married last year so I I loved you told us earlier though of how you you when after you met Kim talk about hey Marine Corps officer special forces CIA all this and people were probably not believing that yeah we uh we had our coffee so we we you know I don't think e either of us didn't think we were looking for anybody and I I did feel something special when she introduced herself because I had given up on that and matter of fact I had just passed up on an opportunity to go out with somebody that I probably would never would have said no ever before because I was like no it's when God puts it together I'll know and so when she introduced herself I was like God really I mean you you can but I wasn't sure they don't got him in church. Yeah but yeah but I and but and I wasn't sure but we agreed to have coffee to uh discuss church you know so and that coffee lasted five hours and then the first real date a few days some days after that never been in anybody anything else or anybody else since it's that cliche but sure saying of when you know you know. But well we had that coffee and then she went back to school and Kim's story was married to an Air Force guy who wound up with a um a disease genetic thing that that was a just a 15 year horrible slow battle ending as in his death and so she'd been through hell and she wasn't looking for anybody but she had friends that had tried to set her up because he'd been dead two years.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

And if I may on paper you probably look like the most amazing bachelor ever in some cases in some cases you still do.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

You've been through it right like it's you're not the right you may not have been like everyone's number one choice.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:23

Yeah we know our coffee clearly left an impression and she went back and maybe sometime after that a woman she taught with was married to a senior agency guy and they'd been trying to set her up and she said Kim something's different you're walking differently you look different you look happy for the first time in so many years she said come with me and took her in a room she said okay I know you're seeing somebody tell me she said well I met this guy at church he was a Marine officer then he enlisted in special forces he was in this Delta Force thing and then he was in the CIA and uh that woman looked at her and shook her head and laughed and she said no that's not I'm sorry Kim that's not true. No but I met him at church he seemed nice we I we we talked for a long time I can't be that naive right and she said no nobody's done all that uh guys tell a woman they're really interested in anything she said well give me his name and I'll I'll check him out I have my husband check him out so she did and then um the next day or so that woman came back and said pulled her in a room said oh okay it's all true he actually did all that and then here's the down low on him here's yeah you know he's uh known as a rule breaker but an honest rule breaker and a guy that that could be a fifth group t-shirt. Yeah like uh okay yeah you might break the rule breaker yeah so which means basically when you're caught you fess up to it so I mean you're not honest about hey I'm breaking the rules right now but if you catch me once you catch them and then when you get senior enough or enough experience and you're called in and they ask hey what how did this happen? How did you do that not break the rule and then you learn to ask the question back do you really want the answer to that?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Later in my career I found out not really not known. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

If you were on the other side you're like I don't want to know plausible deniability.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

Yeah now I do want to dive into we didn't have it on the board but I want to dive into you you said your faith evolved were you very you know man of the faith 9-11 after 9-11 going into Afghanistan into Torah boar I mean you're doing tip of the spear I mean people say tip of the spear but that is the pointy tip tip of the spear did you rely on your faith then or you've said it's evolved?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:14

My faith in those years I again I was a believer but I I enjoyed locker room talk my my language not around ladies women family like that but you know around the guys that way I lived a life that a lot of people say is common for special forces people. A lot of my relationships were temporary not I I I never was the guy that you know goes out and picks a girl up like that. But I would be in a relationship and I was always like yeah I'll I know I'll be gone soon and I got other things that I gotta do so I'll put everything into this and treat somebody like a queen and be invested but then when it's time to go I'm gone. And I used to think that I was a good guy because I was nice to everybody and caring it wasn't until later I realized I was probably more cruel than the other kind of guy because I would be with somebody long enough for them to trust me and really come to have deep feelings for me. And no matter what feelings I had it was going to be I have a mission a purpose in life and now boom I'm gone. Fooling yourself and you do that with your faith. You say well you know I down deep I'm a believer and I'm a moral guy. Most people said I'm I'm moral uh kind but you're not walking out your faith you're not living in obedience to what scripture says you know and it and and basically what that means is you really still want to be in control of your life. You have not surrendered and given your heart to Christ and the big change that comes is that when you do surrender and you get your heart, then that other stuff about obedience and stuff falls out naturally from love. It's not a list of okay here's the things I need to do and here's what I shouldn't do.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Checklist every you have to do this.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:28

Yeah and and and for me that's been the big change. And yeah I made some mistakes when I first left the agency and was pursuing religion I volunteered at our church for everything because I wanted to be known I wanted people not to look at me as that guy we're worried about dating our innocent Kim to look at me and say he's a godly man and was frustrated and did to be honest it's probably only been the last few years that it dawned on me that well the reason that is not working out is you're still wanting to do this stuff in your power in your name. And what you have to get out out of God's way and let God's light shine through and it's him they should see and not you. So that for me that's been a biggest learning thing is uh you know Gary you gotta get out of God's way and trust him to make the picture it's like we're all a stained glass picture. But we all want to figure out we want to put those pieces in place and say this is what mine is mine used to be I'm that warrior guy that will die. God puts that puzzle he knew what that picture was going to be you know as I said when we started this show before you were formed he knew what it would be and you just have to get out of the way and let him make that what it is and be obedient.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Give me some goosebumps there. I think if you could go back and talk to that teenager Gary anxious low self-esteem what would you tell him?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:12

You know I think that I would tell him that you might have some stuff to go through if I look at this back now and I don't wish any of the things I went through on anybody especially my kids right God has his plan for all of us and whatever you go through you have to remember that it's part of God's plan and there is a purpose that may not be evident to you all things will work in the end for your good. And it's just that God knows what's good for us just like we as parents sometimes you know I I got I can't let my kid touch the hot stove it's for their own good but I would I would tell that young twenty something year old Gary that and it's like hey man it may not be the rosiest path but uh in the end it's gonna be all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

Gary, what do you value most in life?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

What do I value most in life? You know this might sound you know in based on what we've been talking about somewhat trite but yeah I do value my relationship with Christ most and and there's nothing whether it's the people you love your family anything that you can hold like you can't hold it like this it has to be like this all those other parts of your life get better when put Christ first so yeah the you know I love Kim and my kids to death but my first love is Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

No we just thank you so much this has been such a great talk subscribe like and comment and don't forget to set those notifications we'll see you next week with another special guest until then on your journey