The Hardest Part Wasn't Becoming a Navy SEAL | Dan Luna

Former Navy SEAL operator, leadership coach, and Doctor of Education Dan Luna joins The Not Special Show for a conversation about resilience, leadership, purpose, and the realities of life after elite military service.

Yes, Dan served with the Navy SEALs and SEAL Team 6.

But this episode isn't about tactics or war stories. It's about what happens after the mission.

Dan shares lessons from combat, leadership under pressure, overcoming fear, transitioning from military service, processing loss, finding purpose, and helping others navigate adversity. We discuss why resilience is often misunderstood, the difference between performance and positivity, how identity shapes our lives, and what it means to continue serving long after the uniform comes off.

From growing up with a single mother in Southern California to serving at the highest levels of special operations and later earning a doctorate focused on resilience and human performance, Dan's journey offers insights that apply far beyond the military.

In this episode:
• Lessons from Navy SEAL and SEAL Team 6 service
• Leadership under pressure
• Building resilience in difficult environments
• Fear, performance, and personal growth
• Military transition and identity
• Purpose after service
• Faith, loss, and navigating adversity
• Supporting veterans beyond "thank you for your service"
• Human performance and trauma education
• What great leaders do differently

⏱️ CLICKABLE CHAPTER TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Why Dan Is Special
01:43 Growing Up With a Single Mom
03:01 Dan’s Secret Love For Volleyball
05:53 Being a Momma’s Boy
08:31 Joining the Navy and Becoming a Man
12:39 Navy SEAL Says Green Berts Are Cool 
14:31 What BUD/S Really Teaches
19:26 Fear, Pain, and Performance Under Pressure
29:48 Naval Academy Assignment Changed His Life
34:22 The Ebb and Flow of His Faith
38:52 Educating The Mental Aspect of War
41:49 The Myth of Positive Psychology
47:49 Becoming a SEAL or Leaving the SEAL Teams Harder
51:27 The Hardest Part Wasn't Becoming a Navy SEAL
54:57 What Does Resilience Mean
1:01:01 A Civilian Mentor Meant the World to Dan
1:04:46 Building a Business In His Late 40s
1:06:31 Dan’s Recent Work in Africa
1:10:27 A Powerful Moment With a Pride of Lions
1:13:02 Charged By an Elephant
1:19:48 Has Dan Found What He Was Seeking as a Kid
1:21:48 What Dan Values Most in Life

Whether you're a veteran, business leader, entrepreneur, parent, coach, or someone facing a difficult season of life, this conversation will challenge the way you think about resilience, leadership, and purpose.

#Leadership #Resilience #PersonalGrowth #NavySEAL #NotSpecial 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And that might be the unique offering, I guess. I just I truly think I'm just an ordinary guy. I've been around special people. I've been around special organizations. And I've been very blessed by the people in my life and the experiences and the people who support me. So I don't think I'm special. They've, you know, I have felt special through the support and love and grace that others have given me.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

I always love asking that question because we get very different answers. And uh we think you're special. I know the audience is gonna think you're special. I mean, you're a Navy SEAL, you're a Team Six, you have a doctorate of education. That's pretty special. And you're just one heck of a guy. I like and I think unassuming too, if people saw you would not be like, oh, that guy's a like legendary warrior. But you are. I'm Herb Thompson, a green brain resolutionist.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's less hairy half and branding expert.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true. They are special. I pre that's very kind. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's pretty cool. I I do want to back up though. What were you like as a kid? What was young Dan like?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I so I think that that led to the SEAL teams. So I was I was single mom, only child, and I had always looked at others. And I feel and still to this day, I feel like I look up to so many people. Um, you know, and my mom really struggled. You know, she struggled to to pay the bills. We moved along. We had roommates at times, you know, we lived with family members, and um, things started to stabilize later on when she married my stepdad. And, you know, that brought its own complications. But, you know, overall grew up in Southern California. So I'm a Southern California kid. And I I I don't love California politics, um, but I love the the climate in Southern California. I just finished up a job. I was in San Diego going back and forth for for a little bit. And it was nice. Yeah, it was nice being being back home. Um, I'm more from the LA area in San Diego just from my time at SEAL team one. It it feels like home and I have a lot of teammates there, so it was great. Seeing a lot of friends. Played some sports, played, and I don't share this publicly, and here I am sharing it publicly. I played volleyball.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Wait a minute. Like I'm normally used to tall guys playing volleyball. Not spoiler alert, but you're not the tall, you're not like six foot. I was a setter. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I was a setter. And um and I love volleyball. I still love it. I don't think my body doesn't move like what it used to, and I don't play anymore, though. Some folks have often, once they find out, they're like, come play club. Or come. I was just like, man, I I'm good. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, but yeah, I played volleyball. I loved it. I played some other sports, but volleyball was my main sport. I didn't see that coming. Yeah. It's not, you know, it's kind of funny that that California, I love beach volleyball. So it just it was the one sport that I played that I enjoyed. And so there was a competitive aspect, there was a team element to it, and I had so much fun. The other sports I just wasn't that, and it was so much fighting to try and be better and be better in volleyball. Like there was there was still an element of mastery of trying to get to get better as a player. And there was a I just enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

It was there was also Beach and Girls, and that probably didn't hurt either.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

That doesn't hurt. So that's I was gonna ask. Were you were you inspired by Top Gun at all with Maverick and Goose? Uh definitely not. Yeah, because I mean you had to sit down around.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Definitely not giving those guys a shout out. Um no, there was no inspiration, it was just it was something the school offered and I'd play. I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. And so I just had fun, I had fun playing it, so I stuck with it. Later on in high school, I ended up moving from one high school to you know a smaller private school to Canyon High School in Santa Clarita Valley Valley. And the coach was very kind and it was very a different level of player. And I showed up to their their varsity team. I think I was my senior year or either my junior or senior year. I moved to high schools and I watched their, you know, I went to and I moved after the year had already started. And so they already had their teams and everything was was put together for the team.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

And that's a tough thing to come in, like as the team's already been established and hey, new guy.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, and they'd been together for a while. And I showed up to one of their practices and I'm watching them play. I was like, oh wow, I'm way out of my league. Like these these guys were much better than I was. And the coach was she was sweet and kind, and and um she watched me play and she goes, I'll I could I'll put you on the team. You're gonna sit on the bench on varsity, or you can play on JV. And I was like, I'll sit on the bench on varsity. I I failed you were gonna say that. Yeah, and I enjoyed the guys too. I enjoyed there was ego to it, and I I wanted to be around kind of my peer group. And so it make friends. I was at a new at a brand new high school, so I wanted to make friends, and um, and a lot of these kids grew up together, and so again, just coming in as an outsider. So yeah, it was a lot of fun and they were great.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

And and and we got to see you with your mom before, and it just very sweet lady. So that's right, you guys got to meet her. Yeah, she was so sweet, but also like your interaction, and I mean this in the most positive way of like a mama's boy. And I don't mean it derogatively I'm okay with it. It like boggled my mind of like very pro-mom. You think this hardcore warrior navy seal and like around mama like take care of mom? Yeah. That was so sweet. We've talked about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Observing you with your mom in the past was Yeah, very caring and very like just aware of, you know, not just like caring, but like aware of like, is she being taken care of? Is she having a good time? Does she need anything? Just that, you know, attentiveness, I guess, is the thing. It stood out to me. Yeah, it stood out to be.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

The first time we met, I think that's the first time we met it was at an event.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

And she's she was a firecracker. She was a good time.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

She's fun. Yeah. Yeah, she was fun. And that was one, you know, a thing that brought me joy was that I was able to to bring her to my community and to events and and share this element of of of uh of a life that I I love and cherish so much and share that with her. Yeah. And share this side of adventure for I don't remember what how one of her birthdays I threw out of a plane. Oh, wow. And so she did uh a tandem jump with some guys.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Uh that is the only way I would go out of a plane. So I can relate. Was it because she didn't want to go out? Or was she?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

I told him. I told her and my wife Leslie. I was like, hey, I'm gonna, we're gonna do a tandem jump. Like I'm and so I ended up filming for Leslie's jump, and then somebody else filmed for my mom's jump. And that was for that was my birthday present to both of them. That was so and she a gr again, a great trooper. Like, mom, I'm doing this. Yeah, and she's like, I don't know. I was like, mom, you'll be fine. Like, these guys are the best. And she's like, Okay. So and she loved it. She just screamed the whole time. So it was great.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

I cried going down a water slide, so I don't see um jumping out of an airplane in my near future. I I'm I'm a very ground activity kind of chick.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Okay. You respect gravity.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

I do. I will I will do the zip lines and that stuff, but it's about the extent of it. Yeah, I like harnesses and a little bit more Pairshoe has harness. I mean, it does, but it also has a big, huge drop.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

So not the ideal childhood. What led you to the Navy?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

You know, as a kid, I I didn't feel special. I was raised by a woman. And so there was always this question, and I couldn't, you know, as a kid, I couldn't articulate it this way. But now, you know, reflecting on things, I essentially I always had to what it was to be a man. And so I was close with my grandma, I was close with my mom. And and so again, a lot of a lot of influence from women. And it was just, what does it look like to be a man? And so essentially, when I was a kid, I read, I'd go through all the military books and I loved them. And I would, you know, got those magazines at the time. And so anything with Green Berets or The Marines or the SEALs, um, popular mechanics at the time would do different articles. And I still have the popular mechanics on yeah. So I still have some of these old books and old things that that inspired me.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

I remember those being like in the grocery stores, like in the magazine aisle. Do you remember? Or the doctor's office. Or the doctor's office, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So just so I think I want it to be special. And I kind of knew that it was just I almost felt it as it was weird. I almost felt like this mundane life. And I, and I knew that's not what I wanted. I wanted, I wanted a life with adventure. And I and I wanted to ask this question of kind of like, what am I made of? And what is it to be a man? And so these were some of my questions. And essentially how it came out was, you know, I went to the, I'd read these books and I went to the recruiting office. I think I started going to the recruiting office when I was 16. And I would just show up and I would just talk to them and I'd go through the whole whole office and I would talk to all the different recruiters. Um and the Navy guys were kind of the like they were laid back, they were super cool. And I'd talk to them about the SEAL teams, and they they essentially entertained it. And they're like, Oh, it's hard. And yeah, and just all the Navy guys were were cool to me. And they're like, Hey, we have a SEAL coming in. And so I ended up meeting a SEAL, and he, of course, at the time it was just like this demi god.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

And it was, and they both happened to be teammate guys. And so when I first came in the SEAL teams, I was like, I want to go to teammate. Yeah, it was just it was fun meeting these guys, and the guys were great too. Like they weren't dicks to me. Yeah, they were and they were just like, man, the SEAL teams, and they would talk to me about the teams. And I, of course, every my focus at the time was Buds. So I was asking them questions about Buds. And they were just everyone was awesome to me in the office. And I was still exploring the other offices, and it just seemed like that ended up being the direction that I wanted to go in. I like that buds was so long, and I was like, man, I really want to put myself through this endurance, through this test of endurance.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

In history.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Like I wanted, I wanted this, I want to like put myself through pain and see how I do. Interesting. Destruct yourself. Yeah, really wanted to myself. Because this question of like, man, like how do I, how do I, how do I flesh that out?

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Do you feel like you were challenging your masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I think I was trying to find it, just or discover it or bring it out or refine it. Yeah. Some version of that. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

I think for me, it was it was to prove something. Like, especially just joining the military, moving away from where I was. It was like, I don't know if I'd say to find him, finding it, but it like like you said, adventure in that. Like who am I gonna be as a man is not the guy who sits here where I am right now for the next how many rears? I think that was like instrumental.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

As soon as you entered into the office, you kind of knew that that was your pathway. That's what you wanted to do. That was your goal.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah, it definitely it started to lean that way just through my time in the offices and and reading the books. And I loved all of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Did you read any of the Marcinko books? Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, Demo Dick. Yeah. Commander Marshall. And those were great.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

You know, and I I did as a kid, that's what I'm asking.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

I thought the green beret was cool, you know.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

So as a kid, seeing Have you heard what Herb says about Green Berets?

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Hold on, I just wanted to document. We had a Navy SEAL say the Green Beret is cool. Like And I was a big G.I.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Joe fan. So of course, in G.I. Joe, going through, I've tried, I think it was Flint that had the Green Beret. You know, so so going through. That's a memory, like so. Just going through all my, you know, as a kid, I love G.I. Joe's. And so again, just watching G.I. Joe and playing GI, you know, so having that that soldier input. And there was, you know, they had everything in there in a mix. And I was just like, man, so everything military was I love all, and I still love all of it. And I have a ton of respect for all the other services. And um, man, I think it's it is so cool what the different elements of the service do. And they're very, and you know, I kind of laugh when I get online and you know, people are talking about this versus this, or they're like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yeah, it's dude. We have so many similarities. Yeah, when I what Corey was saying is when I retired, I was tell people once I got to the point where I could tell people I was a special force of Green Beret, I accepted that it was okay to do that. No one knew what it was, and they'd be like, He was so disappointed. Yeah, and then they'd be like, Is that like a Navy SEAL? Oh, and I'd be like, Yes, but cooler. Uh just to like have a have fun dig. But uh yeah, it was uh He used to say, like, babe, everyone knows what special forces is.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

And I'm like, I really hate to inform you. They do not. You're gonna have to clarify on that one for sure, sure did not.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Uh no, but Navy SEALs people do. I mean, the more like the brand.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

They've done a better brand. Rightfully so.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

But rightfully so. Like true warriors. I mean, so you end up joining the Navy, you go to BUDS. Is there anything that sticks with you, whether it's like a lesson or something that you know you formed at BUDS that you still carry with you today?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

I think that the the training itself is so well done. Like it it it truly teases out this this element of pushing your body beyond limits you can even imagine. And the crazy thing with BUDS is is buds is is still under supervision. So it's not like combat. They can only have you in the water for so long, they can it only make you do these things like for so long for for safety reasons, and they and they push those lines as they should, as all training should do. Um and sometimes people don't like to hurt hear that because people get hurt and even die and and you know, it's dangerous. And it should be because the job is that dangerous. So you have to you have to find that that sweet spot and and and sometimes things happen, you know, in that sweet spot to to bring the group up because the job is so dangerous. And the things with with combat and being overseas, the the the lessons learned in buds help because there is no time limit. If you don't pack the right socks and now you're on the op, or if it's colder than you, or you know, and now you're exposed to cold, or you know, you're in the water, there is no time limit. Like the mission has to be done, it has to be accomplished. And if you lose a toe from frostbite or whatever, you know, from some if you're if you make a mistake, that's it happens. And so the and the mission is is that important. So I think the training does that is the that's the essence. Can you if you can't handle this under this, under these restrictions and supervisions, you're probably not gonna handle what is being asked of you because what's asked of you is gonna be harder. So that's so again, that's I think that is the lesson. Um, and for them, it's can you do like really the question is can you make it through this? And not just make it through it, can you can you do it at a certain level too? Can you perform at a level? Can you take care of your buddies? You know, can you do all these things because that all transfers over? And I think, you know, all selection has some version of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, it is. I think across special operations, to me, the buds is the the toughest as far as like that portion compared to the other special special operations pipelines.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

I have heard though, similarly to what he's saying from you, of like that um consistency of overcoming like it doesn't really matter what's happening, you know, to my body at this moment. It's if it's mission critical, it's mission critical. I'm less focused on, you know, the pain I might be having or you know, the circumstances that I'm in enduring are less important than you know, that thing. I think that is a success.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

I think at one point you were surprised that there was no timeouts and more.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Totally. And she's like, wait, what? There's no timeouts. But he was talking about taking a shower and he had to be ready. And he had his um shower shoes, war crocs. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Well, I switched from flip-flops, learned getting into a gunfight, and flip-flops wasn't the funnest thing. So I switched to crocs, so my toes were a little protected.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Combat crocs. I think that's what he had said something about combat crocs, and I was like, What? And he said, Well, you learn that lesson, you learn not to shower in flip-flops because that's no good. And I was like, wait a minute. When you're showering, they can still shoot at you. And he was like, What? I was like, no, for real. Like, I thought it was like home base, like he's like, We're not playing tag. This is war.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

So eye-opening, fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

I appreciate the honesty of that question.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

And that's really silly.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

It is, and and and it's an important question because there's there's so much that most people don't know about combat.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

And for you guys, it's just so normal that you don't think to explain that to anyone else if they're asking you about like, well, what was it like? Like as your spouse, you're like, what did you do? We, you know, did missions. Like this, you're not giving like the most obvious and not even like mission specific, but like just the most obvious innate details of your day because that's so like normal for you all that you don't think of like, yeah, duh, of course you can get shot at while you're showering.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

It is subscribe, hit the little button right there. Uh more great guests coming up every week.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

As you became a SEAL, was your goal always to join SEAL team six or talk to us about how that that came to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

For me, just always trying to how do I better myself? And just in a level of mastery as an operator. And just in one of my regrets as I reflect on on my past is is performance. And and it's, I wish I would have performed better. I wish I would have been better for the guys, I wish I would have been a better teammate, I wish I would have been a better leader. But hold on, man.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

You're like tip of the spirit. Well, people talk about tip of the spirit. Like you, you the pointy little part of the tip as a SEAL team six operator, and you're sitting here saying you wish you'd perform better.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

And and I want to ask you.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

That goes into my research too. So don't let me forget that.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Do you think any of those people that you served with are sitting around wishing you had performed better?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Maybe. I don't I don't want to assume what people think.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Okay, that's fair. Do you ever sit around wishing your teammates had performed better?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

There was times where I wish I my teammates maybe would have looked out for me in a different way. And that's like deep, deep, deep in the reflection. That's not an everyday reflection. But there are some things where like I was making mistakes and it would have been nice if a teammate would have done an intervention if they would have seen that.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

I've said before is if someone could help me save me for myself. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

But not necessarily like performance in the mission or performance in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah. More outside of just Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

That's interesting. Managing your wife's perspective.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah. And and I'm not upset about it. What it's actually done is help me out with again, I still try and even though I'm out of the service and guy, most of the guys I know are out of the service. How does leadership still show up post-service for me to to those guys? And so I I still I still take on a little bit of responsibility by checking in with them. Yeah, you feel it still, right? What's that? You feel it still. It's like titles have changed. They're like my guys, and I still feel like they're my guys.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And so I still try and keep tabs on them and make sure that, you know. And they're not. They're, you know, they're they're big boys, they're growing up, they're they're doing great things out there. And there's still a part of me that, like, hey, that's my guy. And if they're doing great, I'm super proud of them. And if they're struggling, like, that's my guy. I'm gonna fly out and go spend some time with them. And so I I Still, I still hold a little bit of that to to check in on them. And I hope others, and I'm sure other guys feel that same way too, that are in the veteran community.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

There are a lot. I do want to ask you a question. I do not want to get into the tactics. But were you on the Bin Laden raid? I was not on the bin raid. I tried to get on the raid.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Did you? Huh?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Did you try to get on it?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Kind of. I was I was uh You knew what was going on. I had an idea of what was going on. I was injured at the time. So there was like there was and I was so junior. There was just there was no way I was getting on it. Were you upset? But I I was still that you weren't there was a few things I did to try and like a hey. Do you guys need a coffee guy? Yeah. You know, just to hang out. Like maybe there's a chance. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

So funny.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

There was a few things I did to try and be around. I I had a pretty good idea what was going on.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

And you're like, I want in.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Of course. How'd you feel not getting out? Because you were, and I come from the I think many Americans, but especially special operations, like that's the one I got goosebumps right now. Like that's the one I want to be a part of. And for me, where I was at that point in life, it was like, yeah, no one's calling Herb at that point in time to go, hey, come do this. But you were where they were calling. You were almost there.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

It's close to it. And then the guys were so senior. It was just, it was, you know, team was an incredible team. And there was no way, you know, again, just I have so much respect for those guys. No, I was I was happy to support. Yeah, you know. And if it was, you know, at one point I dropped some stuff off for them and I was happy just to do that. There was some gear that they needed, and I, you know, I was able to deliver that. And just ging that in support of those guys was incredible. There was other missions, various reasons, or supporting in different ways. You know, I'm seeing my guys, you know, through ISR or through, you know, different watching them operate. And that, like, there was different other times where that was very challenging.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

It goes along with this. You did a lot of special missions as a seal that most people would be terrified out their wazoo about. And I was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So going back to Were you terrified? Yeah. Like I'm a normal guy, normal human. And yeah, there's fear that you have to deal with. My fear of letting down the team was greater than whatever fear I was facing.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

How do you handle fear today because of that?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

It's still a similar fear, you know. So now as I become or have been kind of public, which started at the Naval Academy. Almost a funny story with that. So I'm at the Naval Academy. I'm there. It's my Twilight Tour. I'd been hurt overseas, still had some Navy time in. And so I took orders Naval Academy. And so I ended up being very active on campus. And my Naval Academy nine still is really redirected my path. So the reason why I got my doctorate, the reason behind the research and work that I do now is from my time at the Naval Academy. But, anyways, I was very active. I was speaking to the mids. I was doing a ton of stuff on campus. And they asked me kind of last minutes. One of their speakers had dropped out of this. It was it, they do a McCain leadership conference. I think it's in January every year. It's a huge conference. It's phenomenal. It's really cool. They asked me to fill in this speaker. And I was just like, Are you? I was like, are you sure? And they're like, Yeah, like you'd be great. I was like, well, try and get somebody else. Like, there's all these other people. And it's a mat there's politicians that speak, there's, you know, Medal of Honor and you know, high-level military folks. And and there's like, you're asking little old me to speak. Like, no, no, no, get somebody else. Get somebody else. And then I ended up speaking at the conference. I had no idea it was going to be on YouTube. So they're like, hey, can you send in some pictures so we can put this video thing together? So I'm like, oh, I'll send, you know, it's for the mids and I love the mids. So I'll like send in some cool guy pictures. So I sent in some cool guy pictures, thinking it would just be a closed audience. So I did that. I put that speech together, did that keynote, and then a few months later, I was asked to speak at this other thing. When the mids comes up to me and he's like, uh, Chief Luna, that was that was incredible. Like, thank you so much. Like it was really cool listening to you speak tonight and watching your YouTube video on the conference. And I was just like, You're like, the what? Because at the time I was actually still looking at going back to the command.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Really?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Like I hadn't decided if I was done with military time. I was thinking, you know, I was still in this. Am I done? Have I recovered enough? Am I gonna get out of the military? Am I gonna stay in? I just kept a stoic face. I was like, oh, that's really cool. You know, I talk to him, and then I get home and I'm like, yeah, looking it up, and there it is. And I was just like, oh my God. And sure enough, a teammate from the command, like my phone pings, you know, like a few months later. And it's like, hey, what's up with this? And I was just like, oh man. And it was just like, hey, you know, things at the Naval Academy. So starting to go and be more public is an interesting thing to navigate. And there's some guys that just throw it out the window, like, I don't care. I'm gonna do this thing and it doesn't matter. For me, I I value and cherish my teammates and community and the time that that I served. So now how do you still move publicly in an honorable way? And I think you're doing a great example of that, especially with this podcast. So in service of others. And so that's really something that I I've tried to do is how can I still continue if service was a value of of mine in the military. Now that I've transitioned, what are my values? And so as I as I go through my role. And some may change. You know, so kindness was never a value of me. Being more dangerous was a value. And so now that is that it has been a value shift. And one of service is now that's still a value, and it just shows up differently. And so so that's really how I try to navigate things. And I've made mistakes, and you know, this isn't the first podcast I've been on or the first keynote.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

And so again, like stone with that attentive attentiveness that we observed as with your mom. I find that like same consideration and care and like thoughtfulness and strategicness around it. Like it is a very attentive approach and um very very honorably done.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah. And that's come through mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Of like, uh, I sh I did this, or like, ooh, that didn't feel good. Or that, you know, so it's it's navigating. And as I'm sure you can imagine, the the SEAL teams are are very forgiving community.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

They just have little hug clubs, yeah. Like just uh single very gentle with one another.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

No one reaches out and says anything, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah. Yeah. I do, I didn't even have this in mind, but I mean, what was your thoughts when you got injured overseas, come back, you're a tip of the spear, you're an operator, the elite to the elite, and then hey, go hang out at the Naval Academy. My words. But what were you feeling then? Happy about that or disappointed or something else?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

So I chose orders there. So a friend of mine was had had been there, and so I actually came up to Annapolis, toured it, and I was like, man, this is exactly I just needed, I needed to take a knee. I'd been going hard for a while. And so I just I needed to take a knee and see, and I wouldn't, I knew I was close to getting out. No, and so I didn't have any academics, I didn't have any degrees at the time. And so I wanted to at least have my bachelor's. My thought was I'll probably get my bachelor's and go to the agency. That was a pipeline for a lot of guys, and it was just like, yeah, it makes sense for me and my skill sets, things that I've done overseas, my network. So I'll at least get my bachelor's degree and I'll look to go to the agency. And I really the Naval Academy was the best decision that I I loved it. The academy was great to me. And I I I really loved the students there. And and when I got there to answer your question, the first year the first year was extremely difficult. I felt like I was an alien on another planet because I was used to not being looked at, not being seen, you know, trying to just blend in with everything. But now I'm on the yard walking around in khakis.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

And you stand out. Before before you move on from that, how much for those that may not know, is that the expectation of the culture to you know being a seal that that's you know, while you're in, right? That's that's like a normal part of your culture, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Well, like blending in, you mean or is it important?

SPEAKER_03 31:23

Not standing out, not you know, trying to stay, you know, behind the scenes, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah. And yeah, the job naturally, I think, whether it's you know the SEAL teams or um any type of soft unit, you know, you want to do some version of blending in, which I don't think at times we don't do a very good job.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

I love that you all think that you do personally. Like this is one of my favorite herb stories, so bear with me here. We were leaving the grocery store and he said, I have no idea how Paul the Butcher knew, but like he knew I was special forces. And he's like, I don't know, am I wearing like a shirt? Maybe my shirt has something on it. And I'm like, Yeah, babe, it was totally your shirt. It was nothing else, it wasn't the shirt.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

But his uncle had been a green breeze in Vietnam, so he was like, Hey, one of these things seems familiar.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

I just got back from Africa, as you know, a few days ago. And as as my buddy and I were walking, getting ready to go through customs. It's it's one thing if it's one of you, and then when there's two that are kind of like Yeah. And the lady's like, military, and we we both just laugh. She's like, You active. I was like, No, we're both retired. And she's like, That's all right, you both served. And so I was like, Oh man, that's that was really sweet of her. Yeah. And so she we got the it was the fastest I've ever gone through customs. But there was another time I was in, I was coming back from Europe with my family, and I had, and I try and be mindful of these things too. And it was everything from watch to shoes to shirts. And so we're coming back from Europe and I kind of had my European attire on. I'm going through customs. And I, you know, I hand the guy, you know, the family, you know, all the passports for the family, and he's kind of looking down, looking at the passports, and he like looks up at me and like looks down. What class are you? And I was like, what? And he's like, never, he goes, Oh, if you have to ask, never mind. I was like, no, no, no, you're right. It just took me by surprise. I was like, I was in class 228. He knew you were a SEAL. He knew I was a SEAL. I believe it. Not I was military, but he knew SEALs. He knew exactly. And I was blown away. Like I had my European, I was like, I'm gonna blend, I don't look anything military. So easy.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

There's just certain characteristics that you all are so blatantly unaware of, like being prepared when you walk up, your mannerisms, your delivery of the family's passports, making it easy. I'm willing to bet you had it open to the page that you're all open.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

There you go. It's it's just those little minute details that you know, if you're paying attention, you can you can pretty well identify.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Well, I think going back to like had you not been injured, would not have led you on the path to Naval Academy, which would not have led you to your new passions and what you're doing and purpose. So it's I guess maybe stuff happens for a reason or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah. Well, I definitely believe in that. You know, it's um kind of ebb and flow with with my faith. And, you know, as things happen in life, I kind of drift away from, you know, what I say is God's path. And then, you know, there's those ways that you know, you get knocked on your butt and you're like, ooh, maybe I need to I hear you, you know, and start coming back. And I'm kind of on that that rebound right now of like, I I hear you, and just trying to to settle things down, get back into, you know, prayer and church and you know, my losing my mom is hard. And just took a break. Uh things have been flow. Um, there's your good Navy term, you know, for the for the tides. And so again, like with my my faith walk and getting back in the word, getting back into prayer, going back to church. Yeah, it's good. It's, you know, it's a it's a foundation of mine that's, you know, had has had cracks over the years and just looking to to repair that foundation and and just kind of settle back down. And instead of looking in, you know, hey, what am I doing next? Like what is how do I provide value? How can my faith show up? How can I be of service, you know, moving forward to others? And again, that's, you know, as I move forward with my business, those are the questions that that I continually to ask myself of just continue service and value to others.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Aaron Powell And talk to us about that. What has that led you to today?

SPEAKER_00 35:58

So it starts with the Naval Academy. So I was at the Naval Academy, I was uh, you know, like I mentioned before, heavily involved with the student body. And and folks would ask me to, you know, talk to the students in different classes and specifically to combat. So about, you know, for 15 years deploying to a combat zone every other year. And so I I wouldn't talk to the students about, you know, even their idea of violence. And so we and we would just start there. Often with veterans, we talk about transition. So transition from military into civilian life. I think there's a an educational gap from civilian into the military. And so when I was at the Naval Academy, I started to get heavily involved in nonprofits. And it was like the veteran community, the veteran, and you know, all these things post-event. And then I'd come back to work and I'm at the Naval Academy and I'm seeing these young men and women at the start. It was like, who's helping them out?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

And they're getting four years at the academy versus some people get weeks as they're starting to do that transition. Six weeks when they're starting their journey or for boot camp and stuff. It's like interesting thought.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

So I started to ask these questions of like, how are we preparing these men and women for combat? And they're like, oh, Dan, we're, you know, we're doing these things. And I was like, You think that's gonna help them in? Like, I just came back from like I was on the battlefield for years, and you think these things are gonna help them? And they're like, Well, Chief, the academics. And I was like, Okay. And I was like, Well, I I disagree with it and I think this. And they're like, Yeah, appreciate your thoughts. And so, really, what fueled me, you know, passion people talk about, oh, my passion fuels me. It was actually anger. This anger and disservice. And I actually think it's immoral, like what we're doing and the lack of preparation for people that we're putting in harm's way.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Can you expound on that a little bit? Because like I think military-wise, we do a lot of good training of showing people how to shoot and how to the art of war. I think we do a fairly decent job of teaching the skills of that, but that's not what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah. So I can teach somebody, you know, gun, knife, you know, the the things, the things of war.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

I hear you're pretty good at combat. Jiu-jitsu, right? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Tuned up in jujitsu. Um But now how do you like where does the pain come from? You know, is it so I use social cognitive theory, so it's it's the environment, behavior, and internal self. And so so using the academics, I don't want to get too academic right now, but um Do it. How do how is that individual processing the environment that they're in? How do we teach individuals? And again, I mentioned this to you. Dan, are you are you uh are you a therapist? Are you a psychologist? You know, people often as I start talking about that, I'll get that question. I was like, no, I'm my doctorate's in education. I'm I'm an educator. And this problem isn't actually a psychology problem, it's an education issue. And so that was so I as we as we shift perspective, that thing that we're looking at changes. And so as I work with clients now as a leadership coach, that's really it's it's partnering with them. And what how do we shift perspective on that thing that they're looking at so they can navigate it the best or differently or open up options for them? And so it's essentially the same work that I've done with that, with this approach. So it's an educational issue. How do we expand? Resilience was never designed or intended for a traumatic environment. Academically, resilience, the resilience literature is the upfront work or the curriculum that that has been chosen, and there's a whole story on how that was picked to be the pre-trauma education for combat. And so again, I I don't blame anyone. I'm not angry at individuals, and I know exactly I've done enough research. I I can't, oh, I know I have names. I'm like, who's this person? I want their name. I know where they live. Like I've I've tracked these people down. There's folks in DC, like Post.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

I know you're in DC. I now I know you're Dan's ready to have a conversation. Yeah, I know where these professors and these researchers work. Um so I I've and I know other military folks who've brought who brought this in. I know what they're doing. I found their website.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

I found like I've Where do you think the disconnect is? Is it these people that have formulated opinions in a clinical setting and not have the actual kinetic experience? Or what do you think the disconnect is, Dan?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Again, I was I was fueled by anger, and my anger has really softened and and really gone away. And what I've realized is is it's folks looking at a thing, trying the trying the best they can with the pro best approach that they think um makes sense to them. I just have a different opinion. And that's really it. And it's not, I don't blame them, I don't blame the academics, there's nobody I blame. It took me a lot it took me a little bit to get to where I am today with that. And just as I continued to dive into the research, it was just and there's and I have these debates still at the Naval Academy with professors there, and there's, you know, thought leaders and leaders in the space. And I did I completely disagree with them. I don't think positivity and really resilience literature comes from positive psychology. Again, positive psychology was never designed for people in a traumatic environment. You have clinical psychology, you have positive psychology. It's the the original intent for very different reasons. We're using it out of context. And if it worked, I'd have no issues with it. It doesn't work. And there's organizational documents that really show it doesn't work. Do people feel better? Do they like it? Do they value it? Is it helpful in some elements? 100%. I use positive psychology within my own life and with clients. And positivity isn't is just one side of the coin. You know, if we were to yin and yang it or yin and yang it, there's positive and negative. Pre-negativity, what does that now look like? And so there's how do we answer those questions? And so again, I I utilize my coaching and so use Socratic inquiry. Well, what are the questions we need to answer? So how do I make meaning? And as an event happens, we have we make meaning of these events. And then you string those events together, and now we have a narrative, we have a story. And so now, if that's about myself, Dan, tell me your story about you. Well, man, this is my story. And it's always interesting what stories people choose to tell.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

And everyone's got a different series of events and environments up until that point that they've experienced.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

And so, and now that narrative shapes identity. How do you think about yourself? And so we have this narrative identity. And so now it's the same thing. If I if I do this thing and if I've been told violence is bad my whole life, and now I transition into an organization that you will either support or participate in acts of violence, am I now bad? So even from the game, and that was the initial question that I would present to the students. I was like, hey, when you put on this uniform, you're gonna participate or support in acts of violence. That's what the military does. It's an extension of politics. And we can even go deeper of like, if you vote, right? So if you take a political stance. And now if your politics, your politician does these things, you're in that same chain. So now you're participating in acts of violence. Who in reinforces the laws of your city?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

The the laws that you vote for. Right? So so it's an interesting, and I use violence because it's a it's a taboo. Okay. Yeah. It's not true.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

I mean, at the end of the day, like the basics of it, we can talk all around it, but that's what it is. Aaron Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

I think that's never more clear than the renaming. I mean, they're they're trying very strongly to make the emphasis on the fact that it is that. It is a Department of War. And that's the intent and purpose behind our military.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

So now how do you internalize that? And so now that like the Socratic inquiry or the coaching comes in. So what does a syllabus look like? What does a curriculum look like? And I have professors ton of experience who are brilliant. Like, Dan, we're we're doing that. I was like, are you? Are your learning outcomes designed to reduce and prepare and do these things? And they're like, well, no, you're not doing it. Or they're like, we have these courses. Oh, it's all in one course. No, we do a little bit here. And again, so I go back, I keep going back to the education. Yeah. They're like, oh, have you read Grossman? Have you read Marlantis? Have you read it? Doesn't matter. Where's the curriculum?

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Where is their curriculum? If we care so much about the veterans, if we care so much. And so I've even transitioned on mental health to performance. Because if if there's an organization that cares about mental health, regardless of the organization, it's almost like a nicety. Yeah. I care. But almost every organization cares about performance. So how do we maintain an increased performance?

SPEAKER_03 45:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

How do we maintain sustainability through that? So so I've even so I've so again I've like, I've played with this stuff for years. And I'm I'm now finally in a place to where I can start putting this stuff together. And my knuckles still drag on the ground at times and and and sitting behind trying to do academic writing and put things together still is still challenging to me.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Well I love we've talked a lot and we've had people on the show with like a lot of the challenges. Yeah, veterans, let's be real. All humans have challenges, but like a lot of times it's at the end we're trying to fix something instead of getting further upstream. And I love that you're like, This is our first argument, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

It was about transition topics and we or transition outcomes and whose responsibility that is and at what point in the military career. And, you know, I was very like, hey, it needs to start day zero. And like as they're even considering, maybe start having these conversations. And at the time, Herb was very like, no, we got other things to focus on, you know, it that that stuff is take care of addressed in other ways. But now you've, you know, I think come full circle.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

I still disagree with you. I think certain parts of it, the hey, how are you gonna handle the balance? Prepare people for that. I do feel like, hey, we're gonna prepare you for your job afterwards. When I was getting ready to go on a deployment, probably like Dan was wasn't like, well, let me worry about what this next job is. I get that. But I think I'm always trying to stay alive and keep my guys alive, more importantly.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

This along with that makes a lot of sense to me of like you're addressing critical issues that come post-service at the initiation of service to preventatively have those post-service issues or minimize them, which I think is a critical aspect of preventing lots of other struggles that we see post-service.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

So you're doing this and we're gonna keep going on that, but you left the teams. Was it harder becoming a SEAL or leaving the teams?

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Two different hearts. Two very different hearts, coming in very yeah, physical and mental. And a young man, and you're like a knucklehead at that age, too. Leaving the teams was hard. And I could I could feel myself in that downward spiral. And I could feel the negativity, and I could feel you know the hardship on my family, like the the awareness of all those things, and the awareness of like my own, my own spiral down. And it was I didn't want to. And I I talked to my troop chief, I appreciated. He was offering him all these things. He's like, Oh, we can do this, and we're doing that, and it was all all amazing stuff and offerings. And I just paused and I was like, I I'm starting to feel like I'm the poison in the well. Like I could feel that that negativity in me. And once I said that, he was like, Yep, no problem. He goes, I understand, no problem. And and I could just feel again, I I was struggling on on deployments and compounding of of things external and internal to me. It just made sense to leave, and it was the best thing. And yeah, it was it was extremely difficult to leave the teams and then go to the place like the Naval Academy that was so different. You know, I was at a place where, you know, track suits and a beard, you know, where I'd gotten to, and now where I'm shaving two times a day and being in uniform and offer and now working for people outside of my community, and people saying I thought like weird things to me about certain things, about awards that I had like just people say weird, like why would you even say that? So just certain awards people would say things dealing with, you know, it's the officer factory. So I'm now like dealing with more officers than I've ever dealt with in my life. So yeah, officer factory.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

You just walk around saluting and then dealing with parents.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

So it it was a massive transition. And it was the best thing I could have done because it was also a long off ramp, because it was a it was a hybrid of military and civilian. How guys get out, if they're you know, full and then they get out and it's full civilian, I I don't understand. At least I had I had a long off ramp. And so a lot of my awkward veterans happened in a safe environment. But also happened at the Naval Academy.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

To your point of what you're working on now, how much of that do you feel you could have had most awareness of if you weren't in the presence of all these young midshipmen?

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Oh, it would have never crossed my mind. When I was there and I was working with the midshipmen, it was what did I wish someone would have kind of like, hey man, if you gave me a heads up at the essence, that's what it is. Just hey, I'm just trying to give you a heads up on this thing that that you're gonna experience. So just how you think about it, how you think about violence and how for you and what you're and so now we get into you know moral injury. What is how does your behavior of participation, how's that gonna affect your way of thinking? And then when you're in that environment, it's an environment that's going to try and harm you and your friends and kill you. And now we get into PTSD of things within that environment. And so now we and so kind of like I have to, I'm in this environment. It's gonna, it's gonna be harm, just the environment of combat is classified as traumatic. So as you enter into a traumatic environment, how is that environment going to affect you? And then as you engage or behave in that environment, how are those behaviors going to affect you? So it's these two separate moral injury, the behaviors, how you interact, the environment, PTSD.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

And so again, it's just And then for those high frequency deployments, what what difference of an impact does that make on a person asked to go home and switch back to that life and then re-enter a traumatic environment?

SPEAKER_00 52:07

So now we're looking at compounding effects over time. And then to your point, that individual goes home, and then you have an environment of the home. And now how does that individual the that's a key individual, male, female, whatever whatever that it's key individual in that household, how are they interacting in that environment and how is that affecting the family unit?

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

And so, you know, for my son, he grew up in the SEAL teams. He grew his uncles, you know. My son, I don't have any tattoos. My son is covered in tattoos, and it's all his uncles have tattoos and he loves it. And it's like, how can I I can't be mad at him? You know, he's always wanted tattoos. All is like I brought the kid up, our models around him. I raised him up in the SEAL teams, and now for this young man, when he's going to funerals at Arlington, not one, not two, like multiple funerals at Arlington for losing his uncles. How's that affecting him? And at the time, I was so caught up in my own loss, in my own grief. I didn't have the capacity or even the awareness to be like, what is this doing to my and it's such a simple of course it's gonna affect your son.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Why wouldn't you? But I just I wasn't in that space. And now later on in life, I'm just like, oh, I'm sorry, pal.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

You know, so yeah, man, it's the same thing. You don't think about it at the time. Uh, if you need a speaker for an event, content creator for a brand partnership, reach out to us at Liberty Speaks. It's our company. I do I do want to, I guess, dive into that a little more when you're you're talking about that transition at the Naval Academy, because I'm gonna go on a limb and say when you were, you know, in the teams, you're not really interacting with civilians. No, not at all. Like at all profession for the most part, professionally, but like it's you're in this bubble, and then the academy kind of opened that up to where it's more civilian. Do you think that was part of that long ramp for you too? Was that engagement with the civilian population, which probably to most people sounds crazy, but I mean it's going to the naval.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

I I'm still in the Annapolis area. I love the Naval Academy. I I'm a huge fan of the the academy of the academics, the character builds, and and it was great. They the academy took care of me. The midshipmen took care of me, the staff took care of me. They were they're very inclusive or a lowly enlisted guy. And they took care of me. And it was it was a it was a great tour of duty for me. I ended up going back as a as a fellow, as a research fellow while I was going through my my doctorate process. They were looking at my work and I would have these discussions and you know, even debates with with some of the other professors there. And sometimes people double down on the research. They're like, but the research says. And it's like, okay, and we can expand the research. It's not wrong or right. We can actually expand the paradigm of resilience, of how we think about resilience. It comes from positivity. Everything's not positive in life. We have to expand it to how are we going to go into negativity? And they're like, Well, that's clinical psychology. Well, well, prior to, if I know I'm to go into an environment that's traumatic, how can I best answer those questions before I go into that environment? How do I deal with fear? How am I going to process? And I can make it specific. Often people are like, Well, resilience takes a holistic approach. I got it. And if we look at the environment, whether it's a firefighter, law enforcement, a doctor, nurse, or anyone in those supportive roles that's in and around, you know, any environment that can be classified as traumatic, what are those specific things to that environment? How do we tease that out, such as fear? Fear to what? Where you you could lose your life. You could lose a limb, multiple limbs. You're gonna, you may witness things. So again, this is all, and it's not Dan Luna bringing it's in the DSM five, you know. So as you go through the DSM V, which is like the psychology Bible.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

I was gonna say that's the Bible of psychology, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

That is the so it's just looking at existing material. And so as I look at, you know, for my dissertation, I looked at it like three different islands. There is there's resilience literature and and how that, where it came from, how it was shaped, how it's morphed, how it's being utilized, and then military programs. And the army was has actually done incredible. Like, I think the army has tried the most to really support its service members. Like you just look at the money that's been thrown at these programs and the programs that they have, I don't mind and soldier fitness and not just the physical fitness, but the entire fitness.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

So the gap that I've seen with the the approach is uh it's a logical fallacy. And the logical fallacy is a is a false premise. And the false premise is if I maintain super positive and I go into this and I'm positive, positive, positive, positive, which actually is kind of saying is a of our culture.

unknown 57:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Isn't that toxic positivity?

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Look, if I'm getting punched in the face and it's like, yeah, it's positive. Like I'm getting punched in the face.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Being gaslit of your environment.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

And it's by it's actually bypassing the hardship that you're experiencing. Yeah. And so it even goes back, you know, I'll bring my mom to this. When I have my doctorate in education, I'm a PCC, ICF, certified leadership coach. I'm a trauma-informed coach through the ICF, the International Coaching Federation. It's like the gold standard of coaching. I'm an end-of-life and grief coach as well. And so, you know, that came more recently. I volunteer at a hospice center. So I so I spent a lot of my my work is in and around suffering. That's essentially, and it's not a new, it's not a new question. Yeah. Like, how do we, how do we suffer? And so being overly positive actually bypasses of like, how do I move through suffering? Suffering's part of this human experience. And so it's for me, it's it's it's looking at something, you know, since day one of the human race. And now, how have we answered this question in the past? What have we learned? How, what is curriculum? How do I change the language? And so I'm still trying to put, because it's so much, it's such a big question, you know, looking at different philosophies, looking at psychology, looking at theology to include somebody's own personal background and their own life experience, the combination of these things, how do we maximize education and update how we think about resilience? And so it's just, it's this this complexity of, you know, military programs, resilience, and trauma. What has traumatized folks? And how do we and all to come together to now how do we, under the umbrella of performance, how do we maintain, maximize not only performance, but longevity of the operator and support and meeting the value that the military currently has to try and create change. And so to expand that of like, hey, you're gonna be in fear. And it's funny, I picked up like psychology today. It's like facing your fear. I was like, oh, I think it was psychology. It was one of those psych magazines. You're all pumped. Yeah. I was like, oh, tell me, you know, psych magazine. How am I gonna face my fear? Because now we're talking about a somatic movement, a body movement of I'm facing this way, and now it's a turning, right? So now I'm gonna face this thing that I'm afraid of.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

That I'm fearful of. How do I navigate that fear? And as I went through the article, it didn't talk about any of the fears at all. It was all the positive stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

So it actually didn't address the fear itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

And so if we know the fears, hey, I'm gonna put you in an environment where somebody's gonna try and kill you. Or how are you gonna process that?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

I still go back to the how do you go home and then go back to that. Like, ooh, I lived through that. Now I'm gonna go do it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

Here I'm gonna walk back into the fear. I've already faced it. I've gone home, but now I'm coming back and I'm gonna do it again.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

To me, it was it was it was the teammates. It was I'm real close with, and this goes in, I'm I'm big with with transition, having a civilian partner, strong civilian partnership for military members who transition. And I fortunately, another team guy introduced me to um the owner of the company that I work for now. His name's Justin Douglas. He owns a janitorial company. Never in my life did I think I'd work for a janitorial company. I work for a janitorial company or his janitorial service, and I'm their I I work with their regional directors as a leadership coach. And it's been a powerful friendship for me, not only through transition, he's been a business mentor of mine. He's employed me, like he's done so much for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

And so it's just like, man, every veteran needs a Justin Douglas conversation with. That transition, yes, it's ultimately the veterans' responsibility. But in my opinion, it's equally the responsibility of civilian companies and that there need to be leaders like Justin. Yeah. There need to be more people that step up and meet the veterans and help them understand and bridge that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

And I thank them for their service.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

And I was like, hey, man, I I appreciate your service. And because everyone thinks the veteran, hey, veteran, thank you for your service. And I know there's different thoughts on that. Like somebody's thanking you. Just say thank you back, you know, or you're welcome. Like be grateful for somebody else's kindness in that. And so, and I tell those civilians, like, either thank you or service shows up in different ways. Yeah. You know, you can serve a community, you can serve the veteran community. And for some, it's it's through time, through others, it's through donations. You know, it can be through an employment, it can through through mentorship.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

And so, so there's different ways. So I like to thank civilian partners over the years that that I've been with. I was like, hey man, I really appreciate your service to the veteran community. So thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

Mark Anderson comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

Yeah, it doesn't take a uniform to serve. And uh we had one stick out to us, Mark, the guy we were talking about earlier. Not that Mark with uh his documentary Tribal, we were at a restaurant and the head chef slash owner was in tears that he hadn't served. And it was all a room full of veterans. And I was like, look around, man, like you're serving your community. Like there's people smiling, a couple over there sharing, have a couple tears, but they're talking and it's you've built this community. You're serving. You don't just because you don't get a rank or you don't have a cool patch on your shoulder doesn't mean you can't serve.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

But it is fascinating to me, sorry, to the people that do step into that and want to do the most or want to mentor, they oftentimes have expressed such immense guilt for not serving. Yeah, I don't know if that's Justin's case, but you hear that quite certainly in uniform. Yeah, serving in uniform.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Yeah. And and if these individuals would have chosen a different path, who would have supported them in transition? And so it's just the these paths work out for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

And so, and so again, now that they're, you know, older and this isn't just one, like I've been fortunate to have, you know, be around many business, it just happens to be men. So very a lot of businessmen that have been supportive to, you know, me and the community. And their path has a lot has created, you know, wealth or has created support or created network or created different things to now come back around and really help military members. Because if somebody retires, they're in their 40s. So now here's somebody that's trying to start something brand new in their 40s, yeah, and there's no experience, and like that's a lot. Trust us, we know about that. Like trying to get a job. So I'm yeah, I'm almost 50.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

So I turned 49 this year, and I'm still trying to navigate this business thing, and still like, oh, my, and I've been like, it was COVID, and then my doctorate, and then my mom was sick. So I turned into full-time care for my mom. And then my mom passed away, and then given myself time to grieve, and just and now this is and now I'm here in 2026, and this is the first year that I've actually been able to really get my business going. And so as I've I've kind of played around with different things, it just like what makes sense? How do I serve? How do I convey value?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:30

And where there could start a business at eight at almost 50. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

You know, and it just, I'm making uh a dollar amount from retirement and it's it's not a lot. Yeah. You know, so it's there there was things given up in my youth for for uh a path that I chose and now trying to recover, you know, financially. Yeah. You know, and like how do I make up for lost time financially? Because retire real retirement, where I'm an age. Out is is not that far away.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

And time goes You're probably closer to that than you were closer to joining the Navy. Yeah. I mean on the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:11

And I actually I started on that path and I meant to circle it back around to your original question, and then I lost sight of the original question. So I apologize for the question.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

I enjoyed the journey. I didn't even remember I had asked a question.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

I don't really know what the hell the question was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

I don't either at this point. I don't know, but I loved the journey we just did.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Okay. Good.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:30

All good stuff. Um you tell us you recently went to Africa. I think this was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

I've gone, I've gone several times to Africa. Well for the military. So very, very different trips to Africa.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

So can you tell us about this recent trip to Africa, what that was like, and what you got to experience, what you were working on?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

Yeah. So my business mentor, again, he keeps me uh very close to him and I'm grateful for it. He's involved in uh, he's a very successful businessman, brilliant at business. And so he is, he kind of grew up in Africa as a kid. Like he would travel out there and unique opportunities on the bush, if you will, around animals, the animals out there and concert specific to conservation from Vardy, and there's a bunch of game reserves that he he spent a lot of time on. And so his passion, that's like his passion project. And so what he's been able to do is is invest out there. And so he's basically standing up uh a new lodge. And so there's so if you wanted to go on game drive and kind of the typical, you know, you see the vehicles and the lions and the elephants and the you know, the zebras and giraffes and see that. There's different, there, there's different ways you can do that. So he's right next to that. And there's other game reserves out there, and there's nice lodges, so you can stay at everything from, you know, in a tent and in travel, or you can stay in a five-star, you know, something like I love this, and I'm gonna tell you why I love this.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

I'm gonna assume you are probably similar to how Herb feels. Herb is, I'm not gonna assume actually. Herb feels that he's spent enough of his time in his life thanks to the military camping. And his camping days are behind him. He enjoys beauty of wilderness and hiking and hunting and all those things, uh, being out on the water. But like bougie accommodations.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

Yeah, yeah. Just give me give me a mattress and give me some electricity.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

So I love that this is an option to have that, you know, that range of of uh housing options there.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Kruger.

unknown 1:08:42

Kruger.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

So Kruger National Park. So Kruger has options like that. And if you want to go see Africa, I think Kruger is the best way. They have everything from you can rent bungalows and and sites there, or you can write, you you can rent a piece of dirt and throw up a tent, and they have bathrooms and they have they have stores, they have restaurants, they have the the Kruger's done a great job with that. So right next door to the Kruger, so it's you know, if you it's the Thorny Bush or Timovardi area. So essentially I fly into Johannesburg, and then from Johannesburg, I fly into Hood Sprite, which is a smaller airport, and then from Hood Sprite, we drive to the lodge. And so there's different scales of lodges. So my mentor essentially bought a he's starting his own lodge. So he's he's a creator, he's started a business before, and he it's he loves it. So he's starting a private large uh lodge, the cario what's means the middle. So it's in the middle of these three other uh big game reserves and and lodges on those on those reserves. And so I've just been again, I've he's allowed me to partner with him, learn about business. And so when I go out there, I support him with different things in the process. But essentially I'm just I'm learning business and and what it looks like to to do a startup, though it's hospitality and service, not what I'm into, like the work, I'm very different, but looking at the business applications. Oh, yeah. And again, just picking his mind. And and it's a trip to Africa. So we talk business.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

And you're on a safari.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:19

And I'm seeing, yeah, and I'm on safari. And, you know, we pause and look at the animals and so that's what my question was gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:27

What has been the most spiritual moment that you've had with an animal that you've encountered on safari?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

So that's really easy. So there was a pride of lion. This was it wasn't on this trip, but the trip before I was on, there was a pride of alliance, and essentially we took the game viewer the or the vehicle, and we drove right in the middle of this pride of lions. Like uh it was just pride and then the vehicle lion and then vehicle, and then and it was a circle of lions. Like close to like from me to you type thing. Maybe a few more you know, like we were in the middle, and it was like a lion there and a lion there, and they started all roaring together. So I guess there was another line, you know, they were communicating, there was other lines, and and it was funny as they were explaining, the guide was explaining what has happened. Like the females were pissed off that there was this other lion or something in the area, and so they wanted like, hey, dude, like go do something about it. It was kind of that, like, hey, knock that like, and he was just like sleeping, and you can tell he didn't, and it was like, hey, and they kept like trying to get, and then finally, like he got pissed off, and they like worked him up, and then he got worked up, and the whole it's all roaring, and so it was this it was almost this like vibrate to be next to a line in a pride of lines, all roaring together, like you could feel it in your bones, and just this roar, and it was it was incredible that that by far was the most magical moment I've I've had with any animal.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:09

What do you think it was about that that like really connected to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

It was it was the power of it, the privilege of it to be in that moment. Um, you're in the bush. And so when you're in the best way to that they've explained it to me, when you're in the vehicle, you're an observer. You know, those animals are just used to this vehicle, and so it just you can drive right up. Yeah, you're not lunch. Yeah, you're not you're not lunch. You're just they grow up with it, they leave you alone, you leave them alone. As soon as you step out of that vehicle, you're a participant. And so it's go from observer observer to participant. I was just out there, we did a about a three and a half hour walk through the bush. So, so we so I'm with a guy, it's not just me, but I'm you know, so we're we're with a ranger with a ton of certifications for for one of the scouts rangers. Um we actually had a an elephant charge us into you really understand how small of a creature we are when you're next to a beast that large. And so just walking and having this massive elephant, and the guy did a phenomenal, it was a phenomenal job. And it was again, yeah, there's no fence, no nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

There's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

And I was asking him questions like, what happens if we walk into a pride of lions? Like, how do we deal with that? What happens if we walk into you know, African wild dogs? Like, how do we do, you know? So I was asking them all these questions, and it was you go into patrol mode, but you have no idea. Yeah, yeah, you're not carrying. Yeah, I'm just food walking through the bush. That was an incredible experience, us walking through the bush. Um, sometimes I've done direct things with the anti-poaching unit, but I've, you know, every time I go out there just because of what I've done in the past, he'll connect me, a third team leader, essentially. So I always try and do some stuff with their team and, you know, whether it's talking tactics or gear or issues that they're facing or any money raise, hey, if there's things that I can bring awareness to, man, those guys do do incredible work. And it's very challenging. And it's and it's interesting how similar kind of things that we've done in the past with military, working with civilian populations, working with, you know, how do I get somebody to stop taking IEDs? You know, well, how how do we create opportunities in the community so a dollar amount doesn't make them do that? So, so they're dealing with some of that with rhino and the horn and even South African laws. Do we legalize it? Do we not? Do we regulate it? How do we, do we cut rhino horns to try and reduce it and prevent it? Um, so it's really interesting problem sets that are navigated specific to the animals. And then when it comes to patrolling and doing anti-poaching, they're also dealing with lions and tigers and bears.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

And so what does that look like for weapons systems? Potential arm threats. So, what does that look like for weapon system? You're looking at closed and open terrain. So, how does that, you know, what does that look like for systems that I use? And now when you're dealing with not a lot of funding. And what does that look like for patrol? And how do we vet people coming into the park that might be essentially spies and giving intel of where animals are? And so it's not only just so there's it's actually a a very complex problem set when you look at working anti-poaching in that area. So yeah, it's a it's a great conversation. I learn a lot from those guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:59

It even goes drill it down even further into some of the complexities of what people start out with, either good intentions of provision of goods, assets, things to the country as donations because it takes away the ability for them to support their ecosystem. For instance, if you're donating shoes, that takes the jobs away from the local shoemaker. So a lot of areas from what I've learned about the conservation efforts have found a direct correlation with those that have the highest um you know area of donations can directly impact the economy there. And then they start looking for more like donation of goods and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:48

In a negative way.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:49

So actually counterprotective where you think you're being helpful. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:53

That's almost like positive psychology. I think I'd be unhelpful to give it to a war fighter.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Um, but we're actually bypassing all the hardship that you're gonna face. And I and I'm dismissing the the hardship that that you're gonna face with my mom. Like as soon as she passed away, how we think of negative emotional states. What do people often say? I'm sorry, she's in a better place, she's not suffering. So this this this positivity of it. And it just like, my mom just died. Am I not allowed to be sad? Am I not allowed to grieve?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Yeah. Am I not allowed to like just like don't say anything. Just sit with me in a moment. And one of the shortest verses in the or the shortest verse in the Bible is Jesus wept. And I think it's such a powerful out of all the ver out of all the things who, whether you're, you know, believing it or not, philosophically, theologically, it's an interesting thing. Jesus wept. Like that is the thing that was chosen of like just to sit and grieve. And so for me and my military service, no issues with environment that I'm in. I have no issues, you know. So on the PTSC side, I actually think there, I think hyper awareness is good in certain things. And and learning how to like a dimmer switch, work with it makes sense. On the behavioral side, I don't necessarily have moral injury. I have moral injury from things I've done in my civilian life more so than things I've done in my military life. The thing that has crushed me is losing my friends. Losing my best friends, losing people who I loved. That's what crushed me. And so trying to trying to work with that and address it from a way that makes sense. And so even, you know, bring it back around to the point you made. You know, hey, we want to serve and people are well intended, much like the environment I'm navigating, everyone's well intended, and we can do better. And what is evolving now that we have this information? Yeah, what is evolution of support make sense? And that's all I'm trying to say academically. Hey, we know these things. How can we evolve to where it better supports, you know, people that are that we're that have rogered up to go into this environment? And as an organization, it's on your soul shoulders to look at that new information of like we owe it to our people and take care of them if we're gonna put them in that environment. It's not just on one. So kind of, yeah, it is parallel movement, whether it's conservation in Africa or expanding resilience, you know, academically.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:41

Yeah. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:43

It's interesting. I do, I mean, going back to young Dan, did you find what you were seeking?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

I did. And I and I'm still, you know, I'm still in my own evolution. And I hope I always stay in that. I I always stay in this, you know, people call it like you're doing the work, you know, and it just I want to be a better dad and and I want to be a better, better person. And so just learning if, you know, if I get an email that, you know, I got an email yesterday and I was like, ugh, fuck you, you know, like and that was my initial, and it's just like that's not how I want to show up.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:23

Which is so wild to me because I hear you say that, that that's you know, your internal thoughts or sometimes external, but I've never seen that side of you. So for my brain, it's so hard to conceptualize that because I see you as civilian Dan.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:36

But you you can see me doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:38

Well, I've seen you do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:40

And it's just shifting, you know, and it's just creating that space. It's different language around it, but you know, awareness to action. And so just recognizing it, feeling it. That's why I do a lot of somatic work with my clients and just noticing the body. Because often we just turn everything from the neck down. We're very cognizant, cognitive. I think, therefore I am. So we're very in the mind and we just turn off this whole communication device. You know, if I'm sitting here doing this, like, what's that? Like, what's going on behind that? You know, often if I'm doing meetings with clients on Zoom with men, I'll see like you. I wouldn't spot it because you have your your camouflage, your your cover, but there'll be a big swallow if there's a if there's emotion starts to come up. And we're just like, yeah, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna go ahead and push that back down.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:30

Or the pause in communication.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:32

Yeah, pauses. And so we're just like, oh, what's and instead of like, oh, you're gonna do this, where I'm stating, I'll ask questions around it. Yeah, hey, what what just happened right there? What did you notice? Yeah or what shifted, or what, you know, so I'll ask some question to bring awareness for the individual. What do you value most in life? That shifts. And right now I'm trying to refocus to where my value is I'm on God's path. And that's where I have had other values come in that have taken me away from that. And I now start to and it's easy, right? We're in the physical realm and to you know, go into depths of spirituality and religion and you know, people with, you know, the matrix or whatever language people want to use now. But we're physical creatures in a physical realm. And it's easy to, for me at least, it's easy to be pulled into that and to like look at this and look at what so-and-so is doing, and look in how so much, you know, this person's making, or look at their success, and you know, what are you doing? And question and challenge and like get wrapped up in that and trying to like pursuit of of things. And it's just like none of those things matter. Like, just am I on am I on God's path? Everything else works out, whether I I have lots or don't have anything, like none of and just and just letting go and just trusting the process of like business and this and sell and just like let it go. Just let it go. And just what do I need to do today? What I need to focus on today, how can I move the ball forward today? Am I on the path of of service, of, of helping others, of supporting others? And that's really, you know, whether it's through through coaching, whether it's, you know, I offer companies, uh, do cultural assessments, so I interview the organizations, do ever, you know, different things for privately held or publicly traded companies, whether it's that corporately, you know, or for business, or whether it's my pro bono work. And I have to balance the pro bono stuff because sometimes I enjoy that a lot more. And, you know, financially there's there's goals and things I want to achieve. Working with pro bono military clients, you know, pro with military clients, where now I'm doing some work for the army pro bono. And so, and it's again trying to at the end of life, that trying to save lives, maintain performance. And it's just a different perspective that I have. And they value this different perspective because the current perspective isn't serving them. And it's nothing bad on that approach. Just, hey, Dan, we know, you know, I happen to know one of the senior military leaders in this unit, and they're like, hey, we know your work. Can you come in and try and help our organization out? And so from that, um, interesting things are coming out. It's it's all, again, on the prevention side. It's all left of the boom. It's all, you know, how do we get ahead of it? And that's really the space that I've I've really focused on. And now trying to like, how do I scale this out to different organizations, different folks, to where they can physically live a better life and a healthier life from it, whether it's for that individual or for their family or for to maintain performance within their job.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

Yeah, we we're grateful, buddy. They just appreciate it. Thank you for the candor and the great conversation today, man. We love you and just we're grateful.

unknown 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

Yeah, awesome. Thanks, guys. I appreciate you guys uh having me on. Hopefully, I hit the record button.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:08

Subscribe, like, and comment, and don't forget to set those notifications. We'll see you next week with another special guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:16

Until then, on your journey.