The Teacher Who Changed My Life | Rob Hughes

The best teachers don't just teach subjects, they change lives.

In this episode of The Not Special Show, we sit down with Rob Hughes, Herb’s high school science teacher, coach, timber framer, outdoorsman, and one of the people who had the biggest impact on who Herb became. Long before Herb became a Green Beret, Rob saw potential in him that he didn't yet see in himself.

We talk about great teachers, leadership, curiosity, raising confident young people, education, parenting, technology, AI in the classroom, timber framing, resilience, and why the lessons that matter most are rarely found in a textbook.

If you've ever had a teacher, coach, or mentor who changed your life, this conversation is for you.

In this episode we discuss:
* Why great teachers connect while others don't
* Building confidence in young people
* Leadership lessons outside the classroom
* Curiosity, purpose, and lifelong learning
* The impact of technology and AI on education
* Timber framing and creating things that outlive you
* Mentorship, parenting, and leaving a legacy
* Why the best lessons are often never part of the curriculum
* Making Maple Syrup on land and from trees that Rob’s Grandpa harvested

Rob Hughes spent more than 36 years teaching science, coaching students, building timber frames, mentoring thousands of young people, and quietly changing lives, including Herb’s.

⏱️ CLICKABLE CHAPTER TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Why Rob is Special
01:24 How he Became a Teacher and Not a Park Ranger
04:10 You Should Stop Acting Dumb
05:49 The Secret to Making Students Love Learning
09:59 Why Great Teachers Change Lives
11:18 Has AI and Cellphones Made School Worse?
14:36 Why Kids Need More Boredom
16:21 The Confidence That Comes From Building Something
19:34 Why Some Teachers Never Connect
21:56 The Students You Never Forget
23:20 Herb is Thomas Jefferson to Rob
24:17 The Letter That Changed Everything
27:31 GOVX Saves You Money
28:02 Lessons That Aren't in Any Textbook
29:12 The "Amnesia Portfolio" (Everyone Needs This)
31:16 The Best Advice for Young People
32:09 Becoming a Better Parent Made Me a Better Teacher
33:34 How Timber Framing Changed His Life
44:56 Building Things That Will Outlive You
50:51 The Adirondacks and Leadership
55:31 Greatest Moments in His Career
57:55 A Leadership Trek in the Mountains Led to a Winning Swim Team
01:01:16 A Maple Syrup Legacy
01:10:02 A Passion Versus a Business, Passion Wins
01:11:15 Leadership Lessons from 30+ Years of Coaching
01:16:37 www.bigbeamstimberframes.com
01:18:47 What Rob Values Most in Life

If you enjoy conversations about leadership, education, resilience, military transition, personal growth, and the people who shape us, subscribe for a new episode every Thursday.

Learn more about Rob’s timber frame work at www.bigbeamstimberframes.com

#Teacher #Education #Leadership #Mentorship #PersonalGrowth

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Her be r uh Herbie, you really should stop acting dumb because you're not very good at it. Right?

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Rob, why are you special?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Well, I'm not sure that I am. Other than there's cameras on me right now, so I'm so I must be. I I don't know. I don't really feel special. I just feel lucky. You know, I've I've been able to enjoy a lot of parts of life and meet great people. And and I try to be curious about things, and so that seems to have never faded. So I think I'm just lucky and curious. That's that's all that's gotten me here.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

We think you're special for many reasons. I mean, a teacher and coach for over 30 years, timber framing business that we are in at an undisclosed location, also known as Skeeter Hollow. Yes. Um, you make your own maple syrup, which I mean, I'm probably second to elf as in fan of maple syrup. New York State Outdoorsman Hall of Fame. Probably if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here because you were an influential teacher of my life.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So I was gonna say, not just a teacher. Probably the teacher. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Uh set me on the right track. I'm Herb Thompson, a green brain resolutionist.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

And I'm Corey Thompson, Herb's less hairy half and branding expert.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Our guests come from various backgrounds, but one thing is true they are special. So, hey, thanks for we're we're excited for this conversation. I am too. Yeah. Did you always want to be a teacher?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

I I I wanted to be a park ranger, right? That's what I was gonna go to college for. I was really close to the the science teachers that I had at Whalen. And so I always kind of felt like that might might be something to fall back on. But I always wanted to be outdoors and figured, well, teaching here in a classroom. And of course I've managed to blend all of that over the years, right? But no, the original intent was to be a park ranger and uh teach people it you know about the natural world.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

I can see that though. You you incorporated some of that into your teaching, though.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, yeah. So I developed an environmental science elective, and that was really I've been very fortunate. My my school district has indulged me, you know, over the years. And I don't know how they why they started trusting me, but they they did. And um, let me just go down rabbit holes that you know that I think have been meaningful things for me. And if they're meaningful for me, then maybe they'll be meaningful for for kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And not just the kids, but it it seems to be the community too.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, I always try to like give them that notion that, you know, like grow where you're planted and and don't forget where you where you were planted, right? You know, come back to that. Just volunteerism is really an important thing, I think. You know, I think it's it's just so important to engage them with their community. Then when wherever they go off in life, you know, they still they can come back to something that they were part of or that they value, or, you know. So yeah, so that's that's been a big piece, whether it's in the environmental science course or whether it's even coaching, though, it's certainly the timber framing.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

I remember we got to go, I don't remember much from high school, unless maybe shocking, but we got to go stock trout. Yeah, yeah. I've done that as part of school.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, yeah. Done that for so many years. Now, one of the really cool things, right? If you live long enough and you right, you teach long enough, like weird things, unexpected things happen. Two years ago, I'm with a group of students on the stocking trip. We show up at the river, DEC trucks there at the trout truck, right? And one of the DEC workers that's driving the truck is a former student of mine who was on that field trip eight years before that.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

How does that happen? Right? I'm lucky, right? That's all it is. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

That's my question. I'm sorry. What was it like having Herb as a student?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Well, back then we called him Herbie. Uh Herb was how do I want to say this? Uh Herb was a good Herb was a good student. Herb was, I could tell immediately that Herb was way brighter than he let on. I remember having this conversation. I don't know if you remember this conversation, if we were talked about it, but I remember one time saying to Herb, Herb, you well, Herbie, you really should stop acting dumb because you're not very good at it. Right? Like I could tell he was like he was bright, but he was trying to hide that he was bright, you know. I don't know if it was like didn't want to draw attention to himself or what it was, but like there's certain people you just connect with. And and I've been very fortunate to uh like that's my radar. And like if I have a superpower, it's reading souls. And and I could tell right from early on that that there was just some connection with with Herb and I, and just someone who, you know, he was a wrestler, I was a swim coach. And so back in those days, and maybe even today, those sports were kind of underserved when it came to spectators, right? The only people that would show up are like parents or whatever, maybe, yeah. And so there was like a communion of souls of underrepresented subcultures, I guess. So at the time, the the where the wrestlers would practice and have their matches was in the gym right adjacent to the pool. And there was like this little causeway between the two. And so sometimes Heard would wander over, wander over and check out swim practice or swim meet, and sometimes I'd wander over and see what was going on, you know. And so there was always just this, it just felt right, this natural connection.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yeah, yeah, it was it was good.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

What was it like having him as a teacher?

SPEAKER_03 5:22

I mean, phenomenal. Like, obviously, I was not a good student, I think everyone knows that by now, or an engaged student. Maybe that's the and he was able to get students engaged. I think we brought up the trial, but uh just making learning fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

And I think so many teachers get away from that.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Ain't they yeah, and uh uh from my perspective, I'm sure you had a curriculum to follow, but like I felt like we were more outside of the curriculum than in it, and I'm sure you were doing what you had to, but it was it was fun, and you got to learn and except you looked forward to class, which I think most people, whether it's class or work, you want to look forward to going versus man, this is gonna suck and dread it, and then it will suck.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah. Well, I always felt that if it wasn't fun for me, it wasn't gonna be fun for the students, so I was just trying to make sure I was having a good time, you know. Fairly early on, it was like I realized I'm really running psyops the whole time, right? I'm I'm I'm trying to get kids to learn without them realizing they're learning, right? I got you got to trick them into it, and so that's where a lot of that outside the curriculum comes. I have a thousand stories. I have stories for every single lesson that it's like, where's he going with this? But it loops back, you know what I mean? It's all intentional. I think it like Herb says, I I want students to look forward to coming to my class. Uh I want students to walk out of the door feeling like, wow, the bell rang already, you know, like this was the fastest class of the day. And and more than anything, I want students to, as I'm teaching a lesson, to think, wow, I never thought of it that way. Right. Like that means they're thinking. Yeah. Right. So those are kind of like always like guiding principles in the back of my mind of like what should a what is what's a good lesson look like.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

It stands out to me that you made it more about the students than about yourself in a position of authority, quite frankly. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

I remember having a little sheet of paper, you know, when you first start every year, you kind of like have the little, or at least you used to, I guess now they probably do it on phones, the rundown of like what classes you have next. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you would see like the ones on your schedule that you'd be like, that's about to suck. Or you'd have one like this, and you'd be like, Yes, that's what's next. You know, so I feel like your class was probably the yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Well, I I I think for for some kids, certainly. I I hope. I hope for most of them, you know. It's interesting. Sometimes I'll talk to a guidance counselor and they'll say, you know, they were meeting with a student, they're like, Oh, he loves your class. And I'm thinking, really? You could have fooled me because it seemed like torture to them.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

But you know, kids are, you know, they are teenagers too. So it's hard to tell. You know, they could be thrilled on the inside, but not.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Well, they don't want to show it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

And I think teenagers is probably the hardest group to teach of any from little kids to adults in a way.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I think teenagers are well, I so my wife taught middle school for 35 years. So there's where I'm going to disagree with you, Herb. I didn't teach middle school for a little bit, like early on in my career. Uh my job is so easy compared to that. You know, I mean, those middle schoolers are crazy. And she was great. She was like, she ought to be the one that be is that's being interviewed because she truly is like she's crazy special. But but there, you know, there's that adolescent angst, and there's the whole hormonal changes, and there's, you know, like you're you're developing your personality and you're, you know, and and so navigating all that for a student is is difficult. Now I gotta try to cram in protein synthesis, you know, along with that, you know. So it can be and so a lot of my stories, like I'm just I'm reading the room, right? And I'm like, man, they're drifting. Okay, let's what what what can we throw in here, you know? And yeah, so yeah, that's to me, that's what makes it fun, you know, for fun for me. And like I said, it's not gonna be fun for them if it's not fun for me. I I had some great teachers who uh like you asked me if was I always gonna be a teacher, and I said it was a fallback thing. But I always realized if that's what I wanted to do, I wanted to enjoy it as much as my teachers did, you know, the teachers that I was you know surrounded by that I wanted, you know, like boy, they seem to like like what they're doing, you know. So I always kept that in the back of my mind. Uh, you know, we all had bad days, but try to hide those bad days and try to be consistent, try to be dependable, you know, have the kids like kind of know what they're in for, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah. I mean, you've taught for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah, 30, just finishing 36. Yeah, yeah. I still this is crazy, crazy stat, right? So I started teaching when Derek Jeter was a junior in high school. And I started coaching the year he got drafted by the Yankees.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

And I'm long retired.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Right. And and and I was still coaching as of uh March, right? Of this of this year. Still swim? Still swimming, yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

We'll have to talk later. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

That is, I mean, uh, what's kept you in it? Because it's I mean, it's not the most glorious, right? It's the pay, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

You don't see the castle that's out there.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah. Well, I guess it's just, you know, I had a conversation with with my superintendent recently, um, who I have a tremendous respect for. And we were discussing, like, when do you know it's time? And we we she she said that someone shared with her a quote about, you know, you get to a point where you get to do all the things you always wanted to do. And I said, This is what I wanted to do. You know what I mean? So it's, I guess staying in there, it never got boring to me. I'm able to be myself, you know. I'm able to do new things with our timber framing program. Each year, we do a totally different frame. We've never cut the same frame twice. So there's always that. Keep the curiosity going, keep learning. You know, I'm a big believer that the minute you stop expanding, you start contracting, you know? And so I've tried to do that with my teaching, you know, like never just kind of set back and go, okay, I'm gonna go through the motions, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

You've done this lesson 24 times, just do it a 25th.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Right, right, yeah, yeah. And the audience is a little different each year. And as the years go by, it's it's I wouldn't say harder to engage kids, but you can't do it the same way, right? So you have to always be uh as a as a teacher.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

I I do got quite has it got harder? Because I'm gonna date myself. I don't think anybody was using this no when I was in school. Maybe someone who had money had like the flip phone that could text. Is this made it more difficult as a teacher?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Significantly, yeah. I mean, screens in general, yeah. There are social skills that develop over time in the absence of screens that you cannot, you know, like I think technology is a powerful thing, wonderful thing. And I love research and like it's the tips of your fingers, you know. Back in my day, you go to library, card catalog, encyclopedia, right? Like sign out in interlibrary loan, wait three weeks, you know, like this instant feedback.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Yeah, you had to get the book from the other library, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Or find out that the book that you need it the most, you can't take it out of the library. You gotta stay there and listen.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, and and so it it in a way, it's it's cool to have that all that stuff at your fingertips, but it takes away like a student's perspective or or respect for knowledge itself. Because it's you know, like the best knowledge is hard-earned, right? You know, the best lessons are hard lessons, you know, and the phones in particular, the social media, the cyberbullying. Yeah, like I think it's never been harder to be a kid than it is right now.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Because the Lord knows if we would have had social media when I was a kid and stuff I was doing that was on, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Not that I did anything illegal, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

How has AI impacted as a teacher? I think I guess some of your learning or some of your coursework is a little different, being that it's like live in your hands, but maybe your peers have expressed like how has that impacted teachers from you know what the content that their their students are delivering to them?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah, it's it's like this you always got to try to stay current because the kids are five steps ahead of you. Like it used to be, I would hate the phrase, I Googled it. You know, like where'd you find the answer? I Googled it. Okay, now I AI'd it, right? So like that challenge of are the are the things that the students produce are they authentic, right? Or are they just they they just got somewhere? No, it's it's also a very powerful tool. And you as an educator or a school system, you want to embrace that because you don't want to get behind the curve and you want to prepare kids for the future, and it's the future, right? For me at my age, I'm kind of like I'm gonna get maxed out with garbage in, garbage out. Like um the having the mental bandwidth to like fully realize it is a challenge for me. The few times I have used it is in the timber framing class that I teach, like the structures we built can't collapse on people, right? So there's a certain amount of engineering that goes into that. And and that's one area where I've I I feel like the research I've done, I've got a very sound understanding of design principles and forces in frame. But double checking it through AI and like, what are the if I'm gonna have the students build this particular time style of truss, how do I calculate the math? You know, that that sort of thing. And to me, that's like, okay, it's it's redundancy when it comes to safety, you know, like making sure triple check, quadruple check that that what you're doing is is safe and you can explain it to students in a way that they understand why it's safe or why something other than that might not be as safe.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

For me, I think just my observations AI and the screen time has really affected young people's imagination. Because we had to figure out how to play with our you know, friends and do our own thing and make up games.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And it made us curious about the world, you know, and problem solving.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Yeah, like because I don't have the answer right here.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Looking back on it, boredom was one of the greatest things that ever happened to us in our generation. Yeah. Because like kids are not bored nowadays, right? Like there's and attention spans are and if they are, it's a right, right, yeah, right, right. You know, and I and I I just think back to like that having to entertain yourself or having to like be curious, like you said. I I don't think I think screens short circuit that and technology can short circuit that. Like you said, problem solving, right? Like the having to figure something out yourself. Like that's where the that's where all learning is, right? And I mean you teachers obviously passing information on, but the the greatest thing you can do as a teacher is train them to be curious and to like solve their own problems, you know. And and I think that, you know, I having that instant feedback and instant gratification is you know, the dopamine hits and all that stuff. I it's like I'm so glad that we didn't have that technology when we were coming up because I none of this would would be here.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

And on the reverse of that, I'm so glad that you're showing them a different way to get instant gratification through something that's tangible and something, you know, as I mean, not as instant-ish.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Well, well, but each day, like in the timber framing class.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

But even a cut on a piece of wood is an instant visual difference.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Well, and that's and and so the one of the things that's really good about like connecting students' hands to their work is like there's a different sensation, there's a different feel when when a student's using a plane that is properly sharpened and well tuned, and they're taking a really crisp shaving, and they feel that as they're sliding that along, and you're healing, hearing it peel off, and you see the piece curl. You're like, you don't get that from a screen, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And and the smell, the smell of woodworking. It's just it smells lovely in here.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I was just gonna say the same thing. Yeah, so so that those are daily things that they're you know, that is instant, but then there's also that delayed gratification of we we spend nine months working on a frame and then we put it up in one day, it assembles in one day. And that that day is where like the culmination of all of that hard work.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And so I don't think students have many opportunities to experience something that you gotta show up every day and you gotta little things make big things happen. And and you you have to plan, you have to schedule, you have to think things through, right? But then when it goes together, it's like this euphoric feeling that you can't well, I've not found anything that's as powerful as that, that that sensation. And the the way we got started with the class at school was after I'd built four or five frames myself, I went to my principal and I said, I want to teach kids to do this because if nothing else, we're in the confidence build business, right? If if I want kids to walk out of there confident, feeling like, well, if I could build that, what else can I do?

SPEAKER_01 18:08

You know, so especially as a female, I have to say, being taught woodworking and how to use power tools at an early age was a huge confidence.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. We've seen it with our daughter with whether it's using tools or hunting, yeah, just the confidence level of one day of that is like standing tolerance. It's like, yep, all we do is go hunting for the day. Yeah, or use some power tools.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah. First thing I built was a little birdhouse. I still remember the man's name, Bob. He was the the woodworker, Bob, but he taught us how to build bird houses and just the pride that I had that it was something you know that I had built and constructed and could look back at. Like it does make a tremendous impact on kids' confidence.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

We're gonna dive more into this, but hey, subscribe, hit the little button over there. More great guests coming up uh next week, every week, every Thursday.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Why do you think some teachers connect with students and some don't? Because I had some that I I literally have always been kind of a person that enjoys talking with adults, but I would form relationships with these teachers and kind of give them like career counseling, like, hey, maybe this is not the thing for you. Maybe like I get that you're doing it today, but like you might could shift and do something else. Like, let's talk about this, you know. Like, what do you think that is for some teachers that just don't actually seem to enjoy their jobs or enjoy kids in general?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Well, we we talked about a little bit previously, like if you're not having fun, they're not going to have fun. So I think that's that's that's a key, and like that's a mindset uh in a positivity, you know. I think it's important. I I think the best teachers I ever had were passionate about what they taught, or or had some other side hustle they were passionate about. I had this teacher what turned out to be my best friend, Frank, who was a science teacher, but he was a jazz musician.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Is that Frank Mockham? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And wasn't afraid to share those other parts of their life. And like you just get a sense of like a real human. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And and I think you can't fake sincerity. Kids have like radar and and they are they can see a fake a mile away, you know. And and I think if if you if you're a teacher and you don't realize that vocal about it, yeah. Well, they're they're they're listening to everything you're saying, you know, and and you know, like the the the phone thing, there would be times where, and and I'm I'm glad we've kind of banned the cell phone thing, but there were there would be times where like I'd be doing one of my stories and kids would be like recording it, and I'm not and I end up on TikTok and they're like my crazy science teacher, you know, and it's like um, which I I don't want them doing, but you know, because I I want next year to hear the same story and think it's new for them, right? But I think that that connection is really about like being open and being willing to share yourself with them. Uh I I always have nicknames for kids, like within a couple of days. I've uh, you know, and I because you know I did Herbie have fun? No, well, just we call them Herbie. That's all.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

What would you say to the other teachers?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

No, but yeah, I never really talked about, you know, like it wasn't like faculty room gossip. I'm like, I got this Herbie kid, he's uh loose canon. You know, it wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I would have nothing bad to say, you know. Other teachers were probably like, yeah. So I just think that you, you know, you you if you're if you're open and you're honest with kids and and you're you're reliable, they they know what to expect each day. Yeah, we all have bad days, we all have good days, but you try to be even keeled. And I try to be a little aware of what's going on in their lives, you know, like, oh, I heard you pitched a great game last night, you know, that kind of thing. So they know you're connected and you're paying attention to them.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

And that takes effort and it takes time, but. To me, it's always been fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

So obviously working because I think I shared this previously. Within the first probable first time I talked to Herb, I had heard about you and I heard about Joe. And I think probably Joe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Probably that was the probably very early on in a really ship. Yeah, like in the first, I don't even know if we're a date yet. Yeah, you've probably heard about definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Well, like I said, it's that connection. Like you just old souls, they just kind of they resonate, you know. Like there's this, I don't want to get too freaky down the line here, but there's this concept uh, you know, um, in quantum mechanics of quantum entanglement, right? And it's this idea that when two particles become connected, they're inexorably connected. And it spans time, it spans distance. And so there's like this just this that should be a Hallmark card. Oh, well, it's it's but it right. The older I get, the more I realize that there's things that that we that don't reveal themselves on a daily basis, but you just you just feel them and you learn to trust the universe, right? And so I have this, and I've been criticized for this by certain people, but I don't think it's a bad thing. I have this Mount Rushmore of students, right? And it's like people who even if they weren't like valedictorian or something like that, but they're just they connected, I connected with them or they connected with me on a certain way. Now I had to expand beyond four because I've been doing this for 36 years. But Herb is the Thomas Jefferson on my uh uh Mount Rushmore of students. Um I've been called a lot of things. But it's not necessarily because of traits that caught in common, but he was like the second uh like when I started to realize that they're just really special people, and I could list I'd list them, but there there'd be some that I would like miss and they'd be like, Oh, I thought I thought I was special.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I thought I was Thomas Jefferson.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

But and and and a lot of them have been males, a handful of them have been females. Sure. But it's just you you just get this sense and and then you stay connected. And then, you know, like after Herb graduated, I knew he was going in the military, but hadn't heard from him, didn't really know where he was at. And out of the blue, I get messages, letters from him, and stuff like that. And I'm like, wow, that's really cool. And so I'm able to keep up with him and what what's going on, and and I don't know, so I'm gonna go crazy with the quantum entanglement here. So there were there were two things I can remember in particular. You sent me uh the shadow box with the flag from from a mission um when you were in Afghanistan, and you sent me a picture and a and a wonderful letter when you were uh drill sergeant of the year, right? So the first one was 2003, I think the Afghanistan. Yeah, and the drill sergeant was 2008. Yeah. Do you remember what month you sent me those?

SPEAKER_03 24:48

No clue.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

September. Really? Do you know what kind of year school year I had that year? Like you sent these things to me, and you didn't even realize that that would have that kind of impact on me. Like September is when you're really trying to get your mind up for the for the new school year, and it's like, boy, I gotta, I gotta do my best because this is what can happen when I'm when I'm at my best, right? So that's crazy. You know, those are it's like this is fate or destiny or whatever, whatever it is. I don't want to sound too metaphysical here, but but I really believe from a science perspective that there are connections that we make in life.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah. And and or even when you put that notion of energy out there, we've seen it. There are times where, you know, we've questioned our own sanity of entrepreneurialism and said, okay, is this something that we should continue with? And I mean that day or the next day. Someone will spontaneously reach out and just instantly put you back in the right mindset of like, here we go, we're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

How many times have you been thinking about something someone that you haven't seen in forever and you get a text the next day?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Like that's that's what it is. This is this is entanglement, man. And and when you when you realize or start to believe that that can happen, then you're like, well, now that's that that's there's like a draw to that, and you want to foster it, right? So so I try to be open to those things. I try to have the spidey senses, you know, unfurl the antenna and try to think about wow, that why am I connecting to this person in a way that that's like unspoken?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

And funny thing is, I remember sending that shadow box. I think I was still overseas at the time. And I remember you sent me back a message eventually. And like, if I remember right, everyone got around. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, right, yeah. What would he have sent us? Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, because I was yeah, and that probably says a lot about me is as good as they were like and and and I have it with me today, but because I took it off the wall, it's been hanging on the wall at school, right by the office. As soon as I got it, principal at the time was uh was an ex-marine, and so he was very big on celebrating the military. And I was like, I want to put this somewhere where absolutely like within 24 hours, it was on the wall. You know what I mean? It was fantastic, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

So that was really cool. I didn't realize that was September, though.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

That's that's kind of a well the mission was September 11th, 2003. Yeah and and so by the time I got it, it was you know, it's pretty late. But but it's that first startup of the year, uh, you know, and it's like, and I'm sure that was not even on your mind that the school year's starting. It was just, but something compelled you to do that at that time, which made them like the greatest impact, the like unforeseen impact.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

So that's so amazing.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

No, that that's I didn't expect that. Do you like a deal? What a deal. Do you like a deal?

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I mean, you know I've saved you a lot of money. You like save money, I like saving money. I've saved you a lot of money with clearances and deals.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Check out GovX, govx.com, get discounts, military, first responders, government employees, etc. Check it out. I actually got this shirt on there. But they also do some good things, they do give back to the community. And uh, this month is actually mission 22 giving back, so they'll they'll give back a portion of the proceeds to them. So I love seeing that. Back though, to teaching, because uh, I mean, I want to dive in this a little more. Of what are some lessons you taught like outside the curriculum? Because you you obviously had a curriculum, and I always thought as a young 16, 17-year-old, that like he's gotta be toe on that line outside the curriculum. But what were some is there some common lessons?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

That's his psyops tricking you to think that.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Then you're like, I'm gonna teach this even though it's not part of environmental science.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah, well, I think I'm gonna blend this with between teaching and coaching. Yeah. And so, like trying to develop leadership skills or life lessons. And and honestly, and I don't mind if this is actually recorded, I would say 60% of what I do is off curriculum. I mean, I cover the curriculum like crazy. You could look at the results, that it goes well. But but there's so many things that I feel like kids aren't being told that that I would love to just share with them and life experiences. And we could do a whole episode on on these things. But a lot of it is like I try to teach them just by le by example, you know what I mean? Like be a passionate person, be a curious person. But there are specific things that I developed this concept. This was more with the with the coaching, but I but it I blended in with the timber framing thing when we get ready for our raisings. I developed this concept of an amnesia portfolio. Right. So imagine you had some sort of accident and you wake up in a hospital room and you don't remember a thing, and there's strangers around you and their family and their friends and their nurses. And so over the next month or so, if someone's explaining to you what your life's been like up to that point, like what would you want to hear? Right. So each cool thing you do is like adding a file to that amnesia portfolio, right? Like if I woke up and someone is listening, you know, a timber framer and teacher, you know, it's a coach, like I'd be like, oh wow, that's that's you know what I mean? Like you want to have those things. And so part of that is recognizing when those peak moments are happening, right? Or or plan for those. What another one of the things that I I like to push is always have something to look forward to and something to look back upon.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Like that's that's one of the keys to a good life is if you plan things, whether it's vacations or whether it's just you're gonna go to the movies or you can't wait for this album to come out, or I don't know. I'm dating myself when I say album, right? But but just another back in style. Right, right. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just have something like you're you're you're setting yourself up for future enjoyment, right? Because life gets messy and there are times, you know, when when you know, we've had students commit suicide and and so it's like you try to tell them like if it if you have things to look forward to and you achieve things, or even if it's not even a great achievement, but something you enjoyed, something you could share with someone, later on that becomes something you can look back upon. And so if you have those two things in balance, it's like you're navigating, you're in Afghanistan, they drop you off, you got a map, map, and compass, and you you set your bearing, but you set a back bearing, right? So now you're increasing your accuracy when you're navigating because you have something in front of you and something behind you. You know, I think those are lessons that, you know, get you through the tough times. I always tell students, because you know, we talked about how that's a tough time in life, right? And sometimes students are really struggling with first relationships or breakups or whatever, you know. And and I try to say to them, this feels like a crummy day to you, but I got news for you. Your worst day hasn't happened yet. Yeah. Right. But if that's true, it's also true that your best day hasn't happened yet, right? So just keep pushing, right? Keep push play every day, show up, you know, and things are gonna, things are gonna get better. So those are some of the things that I try to uh, you know, give them perspectives, like little life lessons, things that keep them positive, keep them looking forward to the next thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

I mean, you've taught thousands of students, probably, coached hundreds or thousands of students, and your wife has taught thousands of students and then you become parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

How is that like oh it changed everything as a teacher? Now, my I I've said that my wife is like puts me to shame as a teacher. She's phenomenal. But we both became far better teachers when we had a child. Really? Like when I when I counsel, when I talk to young teachers, one of the main things I tell them is, I want you to be the teacher you want your kids to have. Right? Like we all get frustrated with goofballs or whatever that's going on, but be the teacher you would want your kids to have, you know, and that's I think that that puts it into perspective. I I don't actively mentor any, like we have a mentorship program, and I'm kind of outside the lines of some of those things, you know. It's like I don't want to push more papers um and I don't want to check off a checklist. Go figure, you outside the lines, right? Yeah, but but I I've never looked at it as mentoring because mentoring assumes I have all the answers and I don't. I I look at it more as nurturing, right? Like my goal is to, or should be, whether it's with my students or my athletes or younger colleagues, it's they already have it inside. I just got to do things that help bring it out, you know. I don't have all the answers, they don't have all the answers, but together, right? So yeah, I think that's kind of one of the more important, more one of the more added value things I bring to the table.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

It all goes together like your timber framing.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So the the the timber framing thing happened like a happy accident.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

People may not know timber frames, they can see it in the background. There's no metal holding this stuff together.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah, yeah, no, this is all wood wood. Wooden pegs.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Which there's timber framing that exists with metal supports.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

But then this is called what? This is the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah, so so so both are considered timber framing. Right. And and I'm not, I'm somewhat of a purist, but I'm not an absolute purist. Like if adding certain hardware is gonna make it safer or more durable, then I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

And that happens sometimes with the bigger the structure.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Um so the so that's really with the engineering side of it. Um, I try to design within traditional constraints, right? You can you can do weird things, but now you got to add other hardware. But so so there's a difference between post and beam and timber framing. So post and beam could be a pole barn that you build, right? That a post is a vertical timber and a beam is a horizontal timber, and you could put screws and hold them together. That's post and beam. Um, timber framing is more with traditional mortise and ten and joinery um and held together with with wooden pegs. It's I I was as a young person, right? You you asked me what Herbie was like, Herb was like as a as a student. I'm glad no one asked what I was like as a student, right? Because right, I I was like science math oriented, so concrete rational thinker, never artistic at all. And although I didn't dislike art class, I was like, I'm terrible at this. I never, right? But I'm finding as I started getting to this, like design is art, right? And yeah, so like I guess I had that in me all along, you know, but it just took longer to longer to come out. But the the timber framing thing, my wife and I, when we first got together, we I wanted to build a cabin. And it was gonna be a log cabin. There was a local sawmill that had a machine that would cut the grooves in the top and the bottom. And so I was gonna cut down trees, and I went to him and he's like, Well, it's winter's coming, come back and see me in spring, and we'll do this. So spring rolls around, I'm getting ready, got the chainsaw all lubed up and sharpened, and I was gonna cut some trees down, and I go to the mill and I'm like, Hey, is this a good time for it? He's like, Oh, I sold that machine. Well, what am I gonna do now? Right. And so I always wanted to like I grew up on a farm and in barns, and it's that's how they were all built. So I was always like comfortable uh playing in the hay mill and stuff like that. And um, so it just like felt right. And so I said, Well, can't do a log cabin. I guess I'll teach myself how to timber frame. And there was no, like, there was no the YouTube didn't exist then. Yeah, there were no real like courses you could go attend.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Did you do any woodwork growing up?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

No, no, like nothing.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Nothing just blows my mind because it's not just you decided to build something with wood. It's like the most complex form of woodworking.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Well, I make it look that way sometimes. You know, sometimes I make it look more complicated than it is. It's really like I could, I have a I have a phrase that I I say to the adult students and in my, because I do adult classes in the summer and my high school kids, I say, a monkey can cut a timber frame. A monkey can't design a frame, but a monkey can cut a timber frame. But so so I wanted, I'm okay, I'm gonna learn timber framing. So there were a couple of books and I read them and just like something clicked, you know. And Oscar Wilde once said, It's the books we read when we don't have to that make us who we are when we can't help it.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Right. And then, like, that's what that's for me, that was the experience, right? I I read these books and just devoured them and was like, I can do this. And so my first frame, it's it's a cabin over there. Uh, that was 2004, right? So that that time frame of 2003, 2004 was like like a that's the cabin with the big chandelier.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yes, yeah, yeah. The one where you went, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Oh, that is that was that's like a pivotal time in my career. You were in Afghanistan and I was figuring out timber framing, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Was there any point in this? This isn't a question there, but I have to ask. Because I think I shared with you I did the the house from 1840 so yeah, like yeah, yeah. Dismantle it and put it back together. There was lots of point in times that I stopped and was like, I might have made a big mistake here. Did you ever have that thought? Or were you?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Well, there was there was a lot of there was, and and this goes back to the confidence building, right? Like it's all problem solving, right? You don't know what you're getting into. And and so when I was doing all the joinery, cutting all the things, like you can't tell if it's gonna fit because the pieces are too big, right? I remember the the day it came together, and there were there was one joint I cut wrong. There was 114 joints in that frame, and one I cut wrong, and it was, I won't bore you with the story, but it was the radical probability of that is well incredible. But again, they these this was a very simple style frame. It looks cool, but it was very simple, very traditional, nothing sketchy. I had cut that wrong, and it was one of the two longest timbers in the frame. It was 20 feet long. And I got a crew here of friends, and everything's going great, and we're going to put this 20-foot-long, eight by eight, and the mortise was supposed to be cut here, and it was cut here. Right. So we we it turns out that's a very common thing in timber framing. There's even a name for it. So I cut a plug and gorilla glued it into the mortise I had cut and then recut the mortise. It's called a Dutchman. I didn't know that there was a thing, but apparently it happens often enough, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

But so that when they Why'd the Dutchman get the background?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

I don't know. I don't know. So that's kind of where it it just developed. And and when when I was able to do that, it was like just this empowering like feeling that wow, well, if if I can do that, yeah, what else can I do? And I remember my father, he's a very pragmatic fellow. And as I was cutting this frame, he would say to me, Well, that's one less timber you gotta cut.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

You know, like he was like that's focused on swim, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Right, focused on the on the goal.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

I got it.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Right. But to me, it was like like when you're reading a really good book and you get close to the last chapter and you start slowing down because you're like, you don't want it to be over, you know? So I had that sensation of like as I was getting close to the raising, I was excited about that. But I'm like, I don't want this to be over, right? You know, so what what's what's next?

SPEAKER_01 39:46

And as a wife, did your wife ever say like my wife, my wife is such a saint.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I was gonna say so, so we we at the time, so our daughter was born in 2001, so she's she's an infant. And so I cut that entire frame in the middle of the night. Like I spent a summer, like she'd go to bed. Our daughter was not a very good sleeper, so it was like, okay, I can get two hours. And I would go out, I had a one-car garage and hardly any room to work, and I would just close the garage door, and it was just like me and the night, and and like I don't know, you know, it was just I would get tired, but it was like, okay, let's do this again the next night, you know. Uh just I'll quit tomorrow, right? You know, just you keep doing that every day and it and and you get through it.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

But we watched a guy not so long ago. Every time it took a while for us to notice, but there was a a big building, and every time we would drive by it, it would just look slightly different. And it at first it was like, I'm seeing it wrong. After a little while, it was like, no, that's noticeably different. And we realized that every day, this whoever was working, we saw him out there once.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

He basically tore down a barn by himself, but every day was just a little bit of work. And over six months, I don't know, it might have been longer than a year.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Totally gone and the grass has grown back up. You would never know it's there.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

So, first one built 2004 time frame. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

How many of you do you even know I had to I I lost track um because some of them are really simple. Like I cut a lot of timber frames, uh, lean twos. They're hiker shelters for the Finger Lakes Trail, and those are pretty quick builds. So I I've I've just volunteer my time to do that. They they pay for the materials, and so I cut the frame and then we get together as a crew. It's called the Alley Cat crew, and it's like it's like a family reunion, you know what I mean? Shout out to the Alley Cats. Yeah, right. Shout out to them. Yeah. Um we've got one, we've got one coming up. We've got one coming up in September because I just finished cutting the the this the next lean to. Um, but so I've done so many of those. A cabin, my shop. We've done 11 frames in the school program. I've cut frames for other people.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Are they all in New York? Yeah. Uh or most of them.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah, yeah. Most of them are actually. Well, the lean twos are all over New York because the Finger Lakes Trail goes east-west. Most of them are are low. I've I've helped out with other frames in in Vermont and stuff like that. But that that wasn't my frame. It was just like I was just one of the crew. But I I've lost track of how many, you know, like I always tell my swimmers, right? Don't count the laps, make the laps count, right? So I'm not gonna count my, I'm not gonna count my my timber frames. Like I I I have more frames in my head than I'll live long enough to cut. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Is there one that is the coup de gras of like what you want to do, but you haven't done yet?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

So, so two years ago, I had planned my Magnum opus, right? It was gonna be, it was gonna the year I retired, quasi-retired, right? The is on Main Street in Whalen. They wanted like a community building for like events and farmers market and stuff like that. And so we did that as a school project. And that was there's really cool truss style, arch brace trusses and prow roof line and all this really cool stuff. And I would say that that's that's probably right up there. But there's it's like your children, right? You you don't really have a favorite, you love them all differently, right? Sure. And so I I want to build a house for my wife and I. That's and she she's been on me. I love you, dear. Um, she's she's been uh beating this drum for a number of years. Like, when are we gonna do this? Like, stop building other people stuff. But I I say to her frequently, if I had built our house five years ago, it wouldn't be as cool as I can build it now.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Did you say, honey, we have the cabin?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Well, yeah, and and we use that quite a bit. And uh, but it's it's uh she's right, as as she always is.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Smart man. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Um, but it it it is you build up this one of the really cool things about timber framing is it's like someone who's passionate about it can really create new stuff that's never been done before. You just blend all these other things you've seen in other frames together in something that so do you look at the cabin now? Oh, that's junk. I mean, it's it's beautiful, but like people are, oh, this was your yeah, this was my first one. But if I did it again, I'd read right.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And so last you just sit there staring at it, like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

The all the braces aren't curved, and the you know, I made it wider and the height's not right here, you know. That's so funny. But in fact, last summer when I did my adult classes here, I did two weeks worth of classes. We cut a cabin frame for a uh a local family, and it was that cabin reimagined. Like if I was gonna redo that, how would it be? And that was that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Do you feel better now that you got to fix it?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Yeah, but now I'm like, well, after that went up, I'd still tweak that, you know, it's this, right? You're always chasing your tail a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

It can never be well, you got to keep the muse, right? And uh always look forward to the next one, yeah. Well, I have something to look forward to and something to look back upon. I got a bunch to look back upon, right? So let's keep looking forward.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

This might be a metaphor for life and probably to do with timber framing and teaching, but you're building things that are gonna outlast you.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah, yeah. And I that's never really been my mission, but the older I get, the cooler that is, you know. And particularly since the school frames that we've done, like there's 11 of them in the surrounding community, you know, and it's like somehow someone's gonna come through here a hundred years from now and go, Well, these who did that, you know, or why are there so many here, you know? And hopefully they'll remember that the kids do.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, when you're on a hard trail and you find a moment to take shelter, especially when the weather's coming down on you and you are not feeling fantastic. Yeah, we but the people, the souls, the journeys, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

We the the funniest time was we had a so the I cut these frames ahead of time. The trail used to do traditional log lean twos, and it was a two-week build, like they would cut the logs in the forest and like build a cut build right there. Yep. So I came up with this idea, the timber frame, which was quicker and safer. So they've kind of adopted that. But I remember one frame we did down near Salamanca, New York, and we were hauling the frame in just as it was getting light that day, and a hiker came through and he came back at the end of the day, and the frame was done, right? He he came through and there was nothing. And he's like, Did you bring this in on a helicopter or what? You know, it was like it just went up that fast.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

I love how you said hauling it in.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because for those things, like we sometimes you're carrying the timbers, you know, and and you don't want to build them close enough to the road, they become party spots and you know get destroyed. So there's, you know, like we do use ATVs when possible to transport some of the stuff, but a lot of it is just lugging it in. And and like I said, we've got a great crew of people that it's like you you've done it so many times, you it's you don't even have to speak it, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

It's just but the ingenuity that that has resulted in you creating products and carts and things, you know, ingenuity around us everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Thousand-pound logs.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, it's it's brilliant. It's engineering at its finest form of using things to become to make life easier for you as you're moving.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah, well, what that's one of the things I try to emphasize in our high school class is imagineering. I know that's a Disney term, like that's what Walt Disney did, right? But but getting kids to like build a better mousetrap, right? And so we've actually created some like specialty tools that work out great for us. And then I've had adult students come in and they're like, oh, that's cool. Do you mind if I start selling those? Right. I'm like, I don't care, just donate a couple to the class. And there's like I'm like online, there's like, oh my God, they're selling this and they're selling that, you know. But that's not that's not why I'm in it. You know what I mean? Um I'm I I'd like to think I'm a better than average timber framer, but not a better than average salesman, right? Um, which is probably to my detriment.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

But we we've talked about most creative people aren't good on the business side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's it's just two different things. Yeah, as far as I do you see a difference with the adult students versus the you know high school kids, or is it yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

So the biggest difference is uh using a measuring tape. So the students I work with, we use a a whole different uh measuring system. It's called decimal inch. So normally inches, right? So we're not using metric, we're using right uh standard, right? And so inches are broken up into sixteenths. So each line is a sixteenth, so sixteenth eighth, right? That kind of stuff. So we use a layout system called decimal inch where each inch is broken into twentieths. But that's an easier number to calculate because a twentieth is 0.05. Okay, so if you can count from 0 to a 100 to 100 by 5, you don't have to remember fractions. Because the first line is 0.05 on the tape, the next line is 0.10, 0.15, 0.20. Oh, there's still a quarter because there's 0.25, and there's still half because there's 0.5. Is that a you thing or no, no, no, that's uh that's a it's an engineering thing. I trained with this brilliant timber framer in Maine named Steve Chappell.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

That's how you said one of Herb's trigger words, Maine. Maine, I love Maine.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Oh Portland, man. Yeah. That was kind of how he did his layout system. And I was like, this works great with the students because they haven't really built anything, so they're not used to learning uh tape measures, and they struggle sometimes with fractions. Now, I think it'd be great for that me to teach them fractions, all that stuff, but like I like literally, if you can count to 100 by five, this is easy, right? Yeah, and so we even we even in Steve's honor, we even refer to each line as a chapel, right? So they'd be like, where's point seven? I'm like one chapel below three quarters, right? You know, that kind of that kind of stuff. And so that, but then I get the adults and their whole life they've understood fractions, and then uh I throw them. This is that it takes them longer to get this than students would take.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

It's kind of like when I was trying to help my kids with core math, and then they would take they'd get so mad because they'd come home and they'd be like, Mom, you got it all wrong. Yeah, you told me how to do it wrong, but because that's how you learn on the the old math, but the teachers didn't want to see, yes, the answer, the end result was correct, but how they got there, they wanted them to use a different method, and now they have well.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

I always tell my my my athletes when I'm trying to train them in a new stroke, I always say habits are harder to break than they are to make.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

So if you develop these old habits of like fractions, and then it's like it's tough to get out of that. But when I had the high school students, like they haven't really built building habits yet, so it's like clean slate, so I can kind of train them the way I think is is most efficient or that it's going to be make the most sense to them.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

I think hiring talent based off of soft skills is actually sometimes way better. Oh, yeah. Because you can train a person to accomplish the things if they have the right soft skills to be that adaptable.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

Definitely you talked about the trails on the finger lakes, and there's a mountain range in New York that is called the chairs, the chairs. What's that chair?

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Oh, Adirondack. Oh, yeah. Or were you trying to get it out of her or not?

SPEAKER_03 51:09

The first time she said it to me, she called it Erndack Chairs.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

It's not because I didn't know it was Adirondack. It's if you have a southern accent, oh, right, yeah, it is hard as crap to say that word without it coming out Erondack. It just it's it's the southern, just you know.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

But you've hyped like all the term 46 or 40.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yeah. So in in New York State, there are 46 summits that are above 4,000 feet, and they're all in the Adirondack's in the Adirondack Park. And so if you climb all 46 of them, then you be can become a 46er. And so I that whole 2003-2004, I got into timber framing and I started climbing mountains.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

It's a really weak year for you.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Oh man, it was it was uh like you I guess you just can't see things coming when it when it happens. And in the moment, you don't realize this is some like monumental shifts for you. Yeah, but but I've learned to embrace that now, right? Trust the universe. But so in 2003, well, 2004, I started, I just started hiking. Like I would go to the Adirondack's as a kid with my family on vacations, but we were like southern Adirondack, not really the the high mountains and stuff. And so I was like, I'd done a lot of hiking on the Finger Lakes Trail, and I'm like, well, I want to go see what some of these Adirondack trails are like. And I knew that there was such a thing as 46ers, but I'm like, oh, people are crazy. I'm never gonna do that. But then I said, I I was like, is that where the call it?

SPEAKER_01 52:31

I mean, the football team got their name? Or no?

SPEAKER_03 52:33

That's a different oh my god, this is the biggest blonde moment ever. You mean the 49ers in California from the gold rush?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Totally kidding.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Oh, keep that in keep that. Thank you, baby. That was you made my dash.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Well, it's interesting because because that because I'm now a 47er. So you so this I'm getting close. I'll get to that story in a moment. But so I started climbing the mountains, and it was like at that point in my life, like I've been so like I started off by saying I'm just luck, a lucky guy. I I've not had many like significant challenges in my life, but we all have things that like try our souls, right? So that was a time period where I was struggling as a parent, like how to be a good parent and how to split my time up between my teaching and my coaching and being a parent.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

And make no mistake, a sleepless baby.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Yeah, that is hard. And and like again, thank God I had my wife, because she's gosh, she just she magic, and she would let me like go off to the Adirondacks for three days and just do my thing. And so I started climbing. Eventually, I got this harebrained notion. Again, the school indulged me. I gotta start taking some of my athletes up here and make them climb these mountains and like talk about leadership stuff. And so I got a grant to buy a tent and a bike rack to carry mountain bikes. And so it became uh like for years, I would take, I would take five kids because I would drive a school van, I got like license to do that, and I would take five kids. That's that's all I could fit in the van with equipment and stuff. And we'd go off and we climb mountains, sometimes whitewater raft and sometimes mountain bike. And and so we would do leadership training, right? Yeah, we're on the trail, you're on point, you're on sweep, you know, like win in charge, take charge, all of those things that, you know, I'm trying to build leaders in my swimming program. And and those moments became like like such a great connection. I I hike with those kids still to this day.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Three weeks ago, I was that climbed my 47th peak. There's a mountain called McNaughton that when the first 46ers started climbing, it the maps didn't say it was 4,000 feet, so they didn't climb it, so you don't have to climb it to be a 46er.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

And there was an AI to tell them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

But now with with more accurate surveying, okay, it is 4,000 feet. Wow. But no one climbs it. It's trailess, it's like 17 miles. That's brutal. Oh, it was blowdown, it's crazy. I saw the pictures of this, yeah, insane. Insane. But I was hiking with two of my former swimmers, both of whom are triathletes, Iron Man triathletes. Wow. And one's one's 31 and the other's 39, you know, like, and I'm 58 now. You know, like I'll keep up with you, boys, right? But that the the connections I made with with those kids were just like peak moments in my career. I know one of the questions we talked about, and I don't want to jump ahead here, but you one of the things you were going to ask me about was like pivotal moments in my career. And and one of the greatest moments in my career was the times when I we would get near a summit. This is their first peak they're climbing, and you and like some of them are treeless at the summit, and you just break out above treeline, and it's like, whoa. And and I would let them we get close to the summit, and I'm like, okay, you're on point. Yeah. And then I would just watch them and watch them as they broke out, and that just like the expression on their face would change. And you know something just clicked in their life that's that's gonna put them on a path that wouldn't have happened without it, you know, in those moments. And so another guy who's on my Mount Rushmore is this guy, Sullivan Landino. So he was on that first group, and then I took him that he I took him as a between his 10th and 11th year, and then I took him again between 11th and 12th, and then he became my aide-de-camp, right? And so when he was a college student and I was taking him, he'd come back and help me, right? And we've been hiking to he's a 46er now. There's like four other people that were swimmers of mine that are either 46ers or on their way to be 46ers, and and like the most you asked me to start off, like, why am I special? And uh, and I'm I I don't really feel like I am, but if there's anything that that defines what like how lucky I've been, is I was Sully's best man in his wedding. Oh right, like imagine that a former athlete of yours that picked you out of the six billion people on the planet that wanted you to be there. Like I'm getting misty now thinking about it. But but those those connections, um, and that's those are one of the between the lean two stuff and the taking the kids hiking and stuff like that, and the trout trips and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

That's how I got into the the outdoorsman hall of fame, which again I I love that you mentioned that about the clearing and that moment of taking it all in. It's actually a metaphor that I use frequently with Herb and others is like you can go through the hard hikes of life, but when you get to the top that you've worked so hard to get there, you better stop and appreciate the view and take it in. Yep, and have that moment to connect with what you've just done.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yeah. And and that's precisely so I said I mentioned I would take five kids. One year I took 13. And that was because two of the swimmers, their father was a bus driver. So he con I conned him into driving the bus. So we took a whole school bus up.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

And we were we were building our swimming program like Wayland had never won sectionals. And and so I was like, we're getting close, getting close, getting, and I knew the next year was like our best chance. So I'm like, we're taking as many kids as we can, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

And um team bonding.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

And and one of the kids who's now a 46er, I had him on point. He fell down a waterfall and got a concussion, and I'm like, oh my God, what's good, you know, like crazy stuff. But but it was just such a great time.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

And I promised your mom that's what happened. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Like I'm trying to teach leadership, and I'm being a bad leader by letting someone, someone get injured. But but you know, it goes back to some of the other things we were talking about. Like we were we survived boredom. I think there's extreme value in letting young people do dangerous things safely. Yeah, right. You you expose them to dangers and overcome that. Like I'm gonna guide you, but like that's how you learn to be safe is to confront danger and not like you can't be in a bubble wrap all your life, you know. How did that season go? We won sectionals. First time ever, first time ever. Like it was, and and so so one of the cool things was when we were on the we we did two summits that day. We're gonna do three, but it got raining and whatever. Algonquin was one of them, and that's like the second highest summit. And so you spend extended time above tree line and exposed, and you know, and we and we and it hadn't started raining yet. And I was like, take it in, man. Just like enjoy this, right? Because it's gonna suck hiking back on the death march, right? But enjoy this. And then when it was sectional, so you do in swimming, you do prelims and then you do finals. So everybody that's qualified swims at prelims and then you do it all over again, top 16. And so by the time we got to finals, I was like, this is happening as long as something we don't DQ a relay or something like that. This is gonna happen. And so I would, I would, after every race, I would gather them and I'm like, enjoy this moment, right? This is gonna fly by. You gotta, you gotta savor this, just like we were, right? And when you're on the blocks, there's no one else there that's been to the highest point or the second highest point in New York State, right? So don't fear the guy next to you, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's that's so bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

Oh, I love it. Yeah, well, let's flip to one of my favorite pastimes from my belly, maple syrup. What got you into making maple syrup? Because it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

No, but it's so cool, right? Well, so again, I've been lucky. I grew up in a very close family, very supportive family. My grandfather was my hero, my grandfather my paternal grandfather. So it all started Friday, May 14th, 1937. Okay. So my grandfather took a train from Whalen to Bath to go to the land office and sign the deed for this farm. Okay. That was eight days after the Hindenburg and three weeks before Amelia Earhart went missing, right? And it's like this butterfly effect thing, right? That uh I I I don't know if you remember him, he was a counselor at school, Dan Rugg. Great, really wise guy. And he one time, I was listening to talk to students, and he said, everything you do matters now and forever, right? And it's like that's the whole concept, same thing with butterfly effect or quantum entanglement, right? And so if my grandfather hadn't mustered up the $400 that he bought this farm with and take the train there and pay for that, I would have never, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be a timber framer, I wouldn't own this property, I wouldn't be making maple syrup. So when I was a kid, I would make maple syrup with with him. And it was just like so like low tech. Tap the trees, hang a bucket, collect it. We had these uh, I don't know how many, if they were like eight-gallon milk containers that were from like a local dairy that he'd put on the back of the tractor, and we go down in the woods and we'd collect like the big milk cans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so we would collect the sap in buckets on the trees, but then you'd take the buckets and dump them in the milk cans and then bring them up. And you had this huge metal cauldron, and we'd have an open fire and it'd just be boiling it. And he would always, you know, when it's running, you collect in the morning and then you collect in the evening. And so, like he would wait for me to get off the bus because their their house was right down the road here, and I was right up here. So I get off the bus there, and we get on the tractor and and and go down and collect.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

And it was just how how old were you when you started driving a tractor?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Oh, oh, probably probably seven.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

This is one of my favorite things. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

Yeah, so so so that's how I can back up trailers now, right? Like I I grew up like it's the thunderstorm's coming and you got a load of hay. You gotta get it in the barn and you know, like all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

And I remember nothing teaches you work ethic, like collecting hay, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Yeah, but I I remember so my grandfather, like I said, my grandfather was my hero. When I was seven for Christmas, he gave me a shovel. The best gift I ever got, right? Like that's that like why do I have the work ethic I have today is because I was like thrilled I get to work now. You know what I mean? Because I just wanted to be around my grandfather and like that, but that's right. I didn't get a cell phone, I got a shovel, right? Which I don't know if that explains everything about me, but but it's it's part of it, you know, and having him to to nurture me doing that, it and so it's a lot of work, but I enjoy that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

I've always enjoyed physical work and science, the science of it somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:24

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like somewhere now, how much from the tree to make what is that, a quart?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

It's a pint. I'm just how many chapels is that? Right, how many awesome, awesome. Um, so it's it takes 40 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. So you have to boil off 39 gallons of water, basically.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:44

And you gotta get all that from the tree.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so I made this past year was the most I ever made 15 and a half gallons of syrup. My previous most was 10 and a half. That was last year. And prior to that, six and a half. So I'm like exponentially growing.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

So you got 600 and some gallons from the trees.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I track it like I over in the sugar shack, I have a little notebook, like how much I collect each day.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

And I just want to point out, you don't sell it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

I don't know. I like I just give it to like you know how like you don't truly own something until you give it to someone else, right? And so to me, like I just love doing it. And my wife, again, she's awesome. Like, I'm up here for a month and she does like when she sees me, I'm bleary-eyed, you know, because I've been up all night boiling. But like, it's I love doing it, and then I just love giving it to people who and I don't give it to just anybody, you know what I mean? Like, I give it to great people, and I just I'm fortunate to know a lot of really great people, but it's uh it is delicious, by the way. We yeah, well, it's I'm you know, there is a lot of science behind it. I've done field trips with kids doing it and stuff like that, but you really can't appreciate the work in the is one of those field trips Cummings Nature Center.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Well, they do they do remember that as a kid getting there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

Yeah, they do it. I don't do that trip. I bring kids up here and sometimes I have them tap trees and be a better one. Well, I'm a little biased, but that time of year is so magical because you've gone through, you know, here in New York, winters are long, they're brutal, they're cold, they're windy, and like the forests are starting to come alive, right? So it only runs in the spring. You want cold nights and warm days, and the birds are starting to migrate through, and the snow is melting, and wildflowers are sprouting, and like the weather is changeable. Like the the cool things that I get to experience, again, being outdoors, I'll be over at my sugar shack and I get have to get up, I set my alarm for every four hours, and I add more syrup or more sap and more firewood. And then I just stand out at the door and the steam's rolling out, and I'm looking at the stars and the coyotes are howling, and it's just like, who else gets to do this? You know what I mean? It's and at that time. I'm still coaching the modified swim team. So it's like, you know, I don't know if I'm at 100% quality when I'm at school during that month. But uh you get kind of like punch drunk and goofy. So maybe I'm better at, you know, I don't, I don't know. But that it's just it's a ritual. I I'm tapping the same trees that my grandfather and I tapped, and and and the tree keeps growing out.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

I was gonna say, because they're yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

So the so the holes that he and I drilled together are still in their time capsules inside that tree, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

And it's like how do you know when a tree's done? Because there are tree stages, and at some point that tree reaches where it's it's you know going to remove itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

Yeah, yeah. So the maples around here are pretty long-lived, but there is kind of a sweet spot, like and and it's tough to compare diameter with with actual age in a tree because it depends on how much sunlight they get and stuff. But you get a tree about this big, you know, about 20 inch diameter or so is really kind of in its prime for syrup or for sap production. But I have can I stop? Is that for taste or output? Output, yeah, volume, yeah. And and I have trees. I can show you which trees are going to produce the most. And they they each produce slightly different sugar content.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

So there's this you walk around on properties that aren't yours and you're like, oh make a good tree.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

Yeah, but you know, like even on my own property, I have way more maple trees than I can tap.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:25

I see.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

But I always tap the same trees that I tap at my grandfather. You know what I mean? It's just like that's I'm communing with his soul, right? Like it's quantum entanglement. I'm still doing it and he's watching, you know. And but you you can measure, there's a thing called a hydrometer which measures density of liquids. So that's how you know when your syrup is finished and right, you're ready to bottle it. But you can you can also get a hydrometer that tests sugar content of the sap, which if if it comes in at 3% sugar, that's really really good sap. And so I have some trees that I get 4%, and some trees I get one and a half percent, you know, and some trees produce more volume but less sugar, and some trees produce both more volume and more sugar. But it's like you you get this intimate connection with each tree in your in your sugar bush. Because it's like, yeah, I know, I'm I know I'm getting a lot out of you this year, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

How how long does it take to do that boil down? Because you mentioned how much it takes to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

My system is really, it's like, well, partially high-tech and partially like as old school as you can get. So these last two years, the I've made way more because I purchased a reverse osmosis unit. So now I take my raw sap and I run it through that and it goes from 3% to 6%. So I've removed half the water without before I even boil it. Now, theoretically, I can run it through again and remove more, but you never keep it, it's like it's like radioactive half-life. You loot, right? So I only run it through once and then I boil it. But like a a legit maple producer would have like that would all be controlled and it would, you'd be drawing it off as it's boiling, like a constant flow in and out. And I just fill the tank, fill the pan and let it drop, and then fill more and let it drop. So I could get higher quality, like different lightnesses, but it's the taste is the same, right? Yeah. So I don't really keep accurate track of like when it's really running, you just got to keep going.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:23

But it takes you a month because you start and then you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

Yeah, and yeah. And there are some times where it's like non-stop. I don't tell anyone, but I'll leave on my lunch break at school and come up and add some more, you know, and then rush back, you know. And then there are times when it's like, okay, it's it we got a cold spell, so it's not running anymore. Okay, now I can filter and I can bottle and that kind of stuff. So it's I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

I asked that because I think when we left here last time when we came to visit, said, I now fully appreciate the cost of maple syrup.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

Yeah, yeah. Well, you're never gonna, I don't know how anyone makes money on it, right? It's it's like dairy farming. You gotta if you if you want to retire with a million dollars, you gotta start with 10, 10 million, right? Like I don't see, but again, that's why that's that's why I don't sell it. Like I guard against making my avocations, my vocations, right? Like I know I do it with timber framing and I teach adult classes, but it's but like you lose some of the joy in doing it when you monetize it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

Because some then you have to start making business decisions. Yeah, versus this is just fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Yeah. So, you know, I could make a bigger sugar shack and I could get a bigger evaporator and more high-tech, and not like a lot of people, even small-scale people put tubes in the forest and it comes down to one collecting thing. I'm still buckets hanging on every tree, and because it's part of my fitness routine, right? Yeah, well, it's what it what is that? The is the farm carry? Farm right, yeah. Like I'm carrying load buckets of sap, and it's you know, and that's springtime, so I'm trying to get in shape to go hiking in this, you know, like it's the next yeah, you know, that's a predictable thing, something to look forward to every year. Every February, I know that oh, that's coming, you know what I mean? And and you get in the shack nasties because you're cooped up all winter, and it's like you can finally get out there and that's the real reason your wife's okay with you being gone. Yeah, yeah. I yeah. I don't know if she could tolerate me if I didn't if I didn't expend some of this energy in other ways. Yeah, she's a saint.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:21

You you've given maple syrup to like probably hundreds of people or dozens, have thousands of athletes, thousands of students. What is all of it taught?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

Yeah, I don't know. I'm still learning. You know, I think it's just like there are like you just become better at meeting people where they are. You we talked earlier about what did having a child change you. Absolutely, right? Like, I thought I was really good before that, but then it's like, no, I can level up a lot, you know. We had a stretch when I when I was coaching varsity swimming where we were really good for an extended period of time. And I wasn't working harder then than I was before, but I finally realized that that some athletes you can beat with a stick, and some athletes you've got to dangle a carrot. And like reading the room and knowing who needs what is the key to success in anything, right? It's those we talked about soft skills or the emotional intelligence. Um, I think I've become a more compassionate person, a kinder person, a more introspective person because I've got to work with kids and I've seen I've seen great successes and I've seen sad struggles. Um and here I am talking with her, but after 30 years, you know, like how lucky am I? You know, so I guess as far as like what have I learned, I just learned that I'm real lucky.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:52

You got many years left. Even now, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:57

When they think of you, uh I think I I hope they smile, I hope they laugh. You know, I can't tell you how many times people say, Oh, I remember when you told this story and I've forgotten this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

Like I can't I I don't remember the I I remember some stories I will not say on this podcast, but they were always the bobber stories from college.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Oh, from college, yeah. I I continue to tell those to this day. I gotta tell I gotta, you know, it's it's like a different time, so I gotta tone them down a little bit. But uh, but there's there's always something Jimmy Buffett related. I like to say that I learned more from Jimmy Buffett than I have ever learned from anyone I've never met. Just that that lifestyle of he has a song called Cowboy in the Jungle. There's a there's lines in there that go he learned to roll with the punches, play all of his hunches, make the best of whatever came his way, what he lacked in ambition, he made up with intuition, plowing straight ahead, come what may, right? And that's like my God, man, that's my life, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

Like, I forgot to say, you are a parrothead. You've been do you know how many concerts you've been to?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

No, I a lot, but but I am proud to say that my wife and I took our daughter to a Buffett concert in Pittsburgh. You know, he he's passed away now, but we we got the second generation in there, yeah. And I can't tell most of those stories, but um but I want people to remember me as a passionate, curious person who was predictable and and wanted to learn about them and wanted to get to know them. And it's it's return, it's like karma returning tenfold. I can't tell you how many times I get emails. Like one of the things I teach in the environmental science class is a bird unit. And so the kids learn 75 different birds by song and picture and all this stuff. And I get emails all the time. I saw this bird and it was red and it was making this sound, you know, and it's like, what bird is that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

You know, I'm like, well, they make apps for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Yeah, yeah, you know, but they they reach out to me and um and and so many of these people have become friends. If there's anything that tells me that I've done it right, it's that I I have so many people that, you know, thousands of students, but former athletes and former students, and you know, I'm I'm almost on my third generation of students, right? Like I'm teaching kids of kids, and oh, you had my grandmother as like what you know, okay, you started early, you know, that family got a tradition of starting early, but I don't want anyone to ever be like me or try to be what I am, I want them to try to be the best person they can be. And and if if they even think about doing that, then then I've done my job.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

How can people, if they want a timber frame, is there an option for them to get you to per to build a timber frame?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Yeah, well, that's so again, my wife, I love you, dear. So as you said, she's like, you gotta stop building things for her because I'm kind of a one-man operation. I have friends that help me with raisings, which is where you need lots of people. I do build for other people, but at a very limited basis, because summers are really when I can when I can do that. But if anything, I I love the two two my two favorite things about timber framing are designing frames, which again is really creative for me. Uh oddly, I usually put rush music in the background when I'm like this. For some reason, it just gets me uh thinking, designing and then teaching others to do it, right? Empowering people. Like to me, I've done a greater service to society by teaching someone how to do something than by doing it for them. So although on a limited basis, I do, you know, Big Beams Timberframes is my uh bigbeamstinberframes.com is my website. I guess if I was going to try to promote anything, it'd be the adult classes I teach in the summer.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:55

And I and I've had the same through the website they can get.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Yeah, yeah. The website, there's a link on there for uh workshops 2026.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:02

Come on up to the Skeeter Holler.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:04

We we I I I have had people from California, Alabama. Really? I have it, I've had internet, I had a guy come from Bogota, Columbia to take a class with me. You're kidding me. No, I'm not kidding. No, no. We've I've really been fortunate. 14 states so far we've had people come from.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

If someone wanted to donate funds to some of the projects that you work on, is there any nonprofit that you would point them towards?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Well, the Finger Lakes Trail, and I think it's fingerlakestrail.org. They have a fund for lean two builds. Even though I cut the frames, I don't charge for my labor. They still have materials costs and stuff like that. And it takes it, and then then they have to feed the crew when we're building it. So it's it takes about $13,000 for each of these, not it wouldn't mean charging nothing. So so that's that would be an awesome one. I I another thing I talk to my students about a lot of times is you know like community service and helping things and donating. But I every time, and it usually is around Christmas when the Powerball gets really high, and I try to impress upon them that the because I hardly ever do that. Like I'm not a gambler, like I know the odds, but when it gets real high, you know. But the the coolest part about it is I start imagining where I could give that money. You know, like and and so I say to my students, and and I and I I've done this before, is I say, if I win, here's my list of organizations we're gonna donate to. And if I lose, I'm still sending one of them a hundred dollars. You know what I mean? Like just my part of the deal of like, okay, I'm gonna play this and it's gonna have a positive outcome either way. You know, so but the finger lakes trail is probably the you know, uh is is probably what I would suggest.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:47

We appreciate this has been such an awesome conversation. We always end with this though. What do you value most in life?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:55

Well, time, I guess, right? Because it's the one currency you never know the balance of. I I think back to like people who made a difference in my life. It wasn't because any particular thing they gave me, but it's the time they gave me, right? And like when when someone's willing to share that with you. Now, going back to my grandfather, my grandfather one piece of advice he gave me was he said, Buy land, boy. It's the one thing they can't make more of, right? You know, and uh, you know, so but the it but I ended up with land, right? Thanks to him. But but the time he spent with me, the time my parents have spent with me, you know, friends, colleagues, you just really the older you get, the more you realize how valuable time is. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:44

We appreciate this. This was fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:46

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