The Moment Everything Falls Apart (And What Happens Next) | Devin O'Day

In this episode, we sit down with Devin O’Day to talk about what’s really happening behind the scenes with first responders. PTSD, alcohol, burnout, and the moments that push people to the edge.

This conversation goes deeper than awareness. We break down:

- Why there’s never a “good time” to get help
- What people are actually thinking in their darkest moments
- The real barriers that keep people from treatment
- How departments can either support recovery… or make it worse
- Why getting help early changes everything

We also talk about what treatment actually looks like, why it only works if you’re willing to do the work, and how the culture around mental health in first responder agencies is starting to shift.

If you or someone you know is struggling, don’t wait.

Start the conversation. Ask questions. Do something.

For confidential support, or simply to learn more with no commitment, contact us:
https://frhealth.com/
888-443-4898

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I didn't know what God's will was. Everybody talks about God's will when you get sober. God's will, God's will, God's will. But I knew what Devin's will was. And Devin's will was more mine. Graduated high school, alcohol and substances were, you know, all I was interested in. Spent the next probably 14-15 years running my life into the ground.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Having worked your way through that, oftentimes it brings us to this position of wanting to help other people. And I think we're really effective at being able to do that because it's like, hey man, I've been there. Let me show you the way out.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Now, I had three grandparents to work for the LAPD. My dad's dad went through the Watts Riots in 1965, abruptly stopped going to work, and then drank himself to death over, you know, a few short years. Back then there wasn't anything like this for anybody. It kind of turned something on inside of me I never knew existed. This became very personal. You know, suddenly I thought, like, this is all I want to do. There's nothing better that we can do than having someone leave the program a success story. What these men and women really need, right, is a clinically sophisticated program that looks at everything. These are the best clinicians, right? This core group we have. But the clinical sophistication of our program, what it is today, right? The family program, the discharge planning, everything they get when they're here. That last letting go is a big step, right? And some people never get there. What's on the other side of that letting go, yeah, right, is everything else?

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I'm your host, Chris Logan, also the director of clinical operations here at First Responder Wellness. If you're not familiar with what First Responder Wellness is, we're a treatment organization out in Newport dedicated to treating public safety for untreated mental health and addiction and all the stress-related stuff that comes with being a first responder. Today we have a I don't know, I say special guest every time that I have a guest. All of the guests are special. Uh I don't know exactly what you would say other than a great guy. I've got the opportunity to work with him for several years now. Him and I have a pretty interesting relationship that's gotten much better over the years, uh, which I can appreciate. Uh, you know, he is a friend on some levels as well as an accountability buddy in a cold plunge uh thread that I have. So that is a little bit of an introduction of Mr. Devin O'Day. Devin, why don't you tell us what your official title is here at First Responder Wellness?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Sure, thanks, Chris, for the introduction. So I'm the Chief Development Officer.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Chief Development Officer. That sounds official. Very official. Chief Development Officer. So we're going to talk a little bit about what that means at some point, right? Um, and how it is that that plays into the the organization and and what we do uh in terms of, you know, all the development and the things that are happening and what you're a big part of. So um, but before we do that, I always want to give everybody the opportunity to really kind of tell us a little bit about themselves uh and what got you into kind of where you are today in working in, you know, uh mental health, behavioral health, and doing the things that you're doing. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you personally uh and what brought you to where you are today with us?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Sure, sure, sure. I appreciate it. So I uh about 16 years ago, I went through my own wellness journey. And what I really mean by that is I got sober. Nice. Came out the other side, and I had this mentor at the time, and we meet every week, we'd go running in the back bed, we'd talk a lot, and he asked me, you know, what what do you want to do if money wasn't involved, right? And you could pick anything in the world. And I looked at him and I thought, I think I want to help people. And he says, Okay, go help people, you know, and what does that look like for me? So I got together with three business partners, a guy I'd known um for a long time, um, approached me and said, Hey, if you ever want to do something, you know, I would I would do something with you. So let me know. So I got together him and two other people. We started one of the first residential primary mental health treatment centers in the state. Um so what had happened at the time is the state decided it'd be a good idea to give adults um an option besides a lockdown psych hospital for crisis stabilization, as long as they didn't exceed a certain criteria. And we were very, very successful in a lot of ways at this company. And then in 2018, um, that kind of came to an end for me. You know, I the way I like to describe it is I felt like I was in three bad marriages all at the same time. All right. Um, so you know, uh, I left and I had big plans. Um, I was uh planning on starting another company just like that. I went out and found an investor. We're moving forward in the process. As you know, in California it's uh quite a long time to get a license like that to get credentialed with the insurance companies. And um, I was driving down the street one day thinking it's gonna be 12 to 18 months before I get a paycheck if I, you know, if I do this. And I said, okay, I don't know if I can quite go that long. So uh I was driving down the street and out loud. I just said, God, I think I need a job in the meantime. And um, you know, Poppy Carmelo, who you've known for a long time. Yep, my phone rang two days later and it was Poppy, and she said, Hey Devin, I hear you walking the streets coming to talk to us. Like, whoa, it's not that bad. Right. Um, so you know, I thought to myself the night before that interview, um, how can I be honest about what my intentions are? Um, I'm gonna start another company, I'm gonna do that, but I really could use a job. And I always say, like, God's always been there, you know, throughout everything we've done here too. The right people show up at the right time. But one of the first things she said to me when I sat down was she says, Hey, we can't pay you what you're worth, but we really need your help. And I was like, This is great. I can't stay very long, but I'd love to help. And so I had this very unique experience those first three or four months, um coming home and telling my wife, and you know, back then simple recovery, right? Um it was an amazing place, right? And I would tell my wife something really weird's going on there, I don't really know what it is. And she would often ask, Well, what is it? I said, I don't know, it's just it's different. And then one day I came home and I said, I figured it out. She's like, Like I'm dying to know. I said, Everybody's happy. I said, besides that Chris guy that wants to kill me half the time. But it was so funny because she's like, What do you mean everybody's happy? I go, No, it's the most bizarre place I've ever worked, you know. But uh I go, everybody likes working there. I said, you know what, I like working there. It's uh you know, I enjoy it. Um and as you know, back then, right, I was the guy that would go out and meet with the public safety agencies, I would go meet with the associations, the you know, peer support teams, the clinicians, the leadership teams. And I was the guy that they called when they had a member in crisis. Um you know, so sometimes I would talk to these cops, these firefighters, these dispatchers for weeks at a time before they're ready to commit. Other times they called and they were in so much pain that we would do the over-the-phone assessment right then and there, and I get it to the clinical team. But what happened for me is I started um hearing things from them, right? Because I mean, no one calls us on the end of a winning streak, right? It's like the darkest time in their life. But I started hearing things from them similarly to what my dad used to tell me about his dad. And I had three grandparents that work for the LAPD, um, two cops, and then my grandmother was a stenographer for the department. So my dad's dad went through the Watts riots in 1965, uh, abruptly stopped uh going to work and then um drank himself to death over, you know, a few short years. And um, you know, back then there wasn't anything like this for anybody, right? And I know that my grandparents' public safety employment completely affected my dad's um childhood, you know, and I'm very close to my dad. He l The way that he likes to say it is his parents were divorced by the time he was one. Um and then some of his earliest memories are also growing up in a boarding house for kids uh Monday through Friday, and they would go home. Um him and his sister would go home with his mom on the weekends um until she remarried, which was many years later. So, you know, for me, what happened in those in that first year, right, it kind of turned something on aside of me I never knew existed. And this became very personal. Yeah, um, the work we do at First Responder Wellness in so many ways. And um, you know, suddenly I thought like this is all I want to do, right? This is it. You know. Um and luckily for me, Dr. Odom came to me that first year and said, Hey, what would it look like for you if you uh, you know, didn't go off on your own and you partnered up with me and became my partner, right? And I tell you what, Chris, easiest decision I've ever made. Yeah. You know, um, I mean, you've been here since the beginning. Yeah, right. And you've seen um, you know, I was walking up this morning and there was a guy graduating the program, he's got his bags out front, he's getting a ride to the airport. Yeah, and there was like a line of people coming up to him, giving him a hug. Hey, when you get home, call me, check in, let me know how you're doing, right? Let's keep in touch, you know. And uh this program has completely changed the trajectory of so many people's lives, right? And the families, you know, for me it's real important about the families too, knowing that you know what happened to my dad growing up, right? And how his, you know, uh he was affected. It's real important that we take care of the families too. And I love everything we're doing about it. I hope we talk about that a little bit later. But um so you know, uh, I would say this, right? Um I'm a dad now, right? I'm 48, I got a soon-to-be six-year-old, you know. And um, you know, working here with first responders is similar to me to being a dad. It was this new experience I've never had that affected something deep inside of me, and it's something I wouldn't give up for anything. Right. You know, so I feel like in a lot of ways we are very, very blessed to do the things we do.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

I could not agree with you more when it comes to that. It's interesting because when you talk about, you know, kind of coming here in the early developmental stages, right? Um, having been blessed to be here for from the very beginning, and and such a big part of simple recovery. I've been working with Dr. Odom since 2014. And so um we had developed this culture of just, and it's and it's rare in the treatment industry, and you know that, where we're doing the right things, right? Uh above board, like we're not doing any of the shady stuff. And the majority of the people that work there like to come to work there because we're invested in the team. I mean, there's just we'd created a culture um that was really special. And so it it's always nice to hear, you know, from an outsider at that time, right? To come in and go, what there's something going on here. And I think for for me, right, when you when you said, you know, it took me a minute to figure out what was going on, and then I realized that there's something special, and then we fast forward a little bit down the line, and what becomes even more special is the population that we're blessed to work with. Well, I was already fully invested in all of that, right? And so that is, I think, oftentimes where I became so protective early on over the program, and where you and I would kind of like rub, you know, we would get in, we just rub each other the wrong way, or I'd be like, what is he thinking? This is crazy. And um, I mean, it all worked out. And I I'm I'm you know, I'm super grateful that you're here and that you've you've been able to do what what it is that you've done and and help move the program to where it is today. Um, but yeah, that that's what it was. And I think now looking looking back where you sit as one of those people who sits protective over the program, right? Like, hey, what's this? No, what are we doing over here? Wait, we got to take a look at this, right? Right. Because it is so special.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

So absolutely want to get into all of that um and talk and talk a little bit about the family program, which starts this week, uh, and talk about some of the development that is to come. But talk to us just a little bit about so you just talked about getting on your own journey right to recovery. And so you know, walk us through just a little bit of that. Like, you know, how'd you start out? Where'd you grow up? And then what got you to that point of like, hey man, this isn't working. I I need to I need to figure some things out.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

So it's funny, uh, I was thinking about this a little bit on the way over here this morning, you know, about the early days. So I grew up in Fountain Valley, went to Fountain Valley High School, and um, you know, uh, I guess I was always destined for Alcoholics Anonymous. Um, it sounds kind of weird to say. Yeah. But um if you know, you know, I can look back and say the same thing, man. You know, uh, I remember so we went to church growing up, right? And uh we were at some family camp in Santa Barbara for a week. It was like the second or third year we were going there. I was probably 12 years old, and my mom kept introducing me to this guy, Mr. King. Oh, Devin, meet Mr. King, this and that, Mr. King, Mr. King, Mr. King, Mr. King. And after the third or fourth time, she kind of was embarrassing me. You know, she wanted me to be buddies with Mr. King, right? And Mr. King at the time, I don't know, much older than a 12-year-old kid, right? You know, and I'm like, this is weird. So I pulled her aside and said, Hey, stop introducing me to Mr. King. You've done it four times over the weekend. What are you doing that? Why are you doing that? And she's like, you know, Mr. King goes to AA. You're gonna have to go to AA when you're older. And I'm like, 12 years old, I go, what are you talking about? Like, I don't drink, you know? She's like, I see a lot of my dad in you, you know, and uh, you know, fast forward, I don't know what uh th uh 20 years. Uh no, yeah, 20, fast forward 20 years. The first AA meeting I went to when I got sober this time, you know, 16 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Guess who was at the coffee shop ahead of time with sitting with all the guys?

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Mr. King from church, you know. So, you know, I graduated high school and um, you know, alcohol and substances were you know all I was interested in, right? And I basically spent the next probably 14, 15 years running my life into the ground. And there was many times along the way where I kind of waved that white flag of surrender, surrender. And I always say, like, surrendering is the easy part. It's staying surrendered, which is the hard part, you know. And despite my best um efforts, right, I couldn't stay sober. And I tried it all, right? Taking a trip, not taking a trip, you know, switching from hard alcohol to course light, right? Only drinking on the weekends, all the stuff, right? Yeah. And what I finally realized when I got sober is that it's me, right? I'm the problem. And this last time when I got sober, I was probably four or five months sober and I realized that I can't trust my own thinking, you know, because you know, my addiction doesn't come to me and tell me, hey, it's a good idea to drink. Right. My addiction tries to remove me from the pack, just one percent, right? Yep. Hey, you don't need to go to that AA meeting. Hey, you don't need to call those guys. Hey, you don't need to pray. Hey, you don't need to do this or that, right? And just think about it, right? Let's say I got on a plane and I'm flying to Australia, right? And I'm just 1% off course. By the time I get to Australia, right, I'm gonna be in the middle of the ocean. Lost. And guess what? Taking a drink is gonna be a good idea at that time, right? So I think for me, I had to realize that that little voice in my head that said, Don't cross the street in front of that bus, you'll get hit. Don't touch the flame, you'll burn your hand. I had to realize that that voice was gonna come to me at some point and tell me things that were not good for my sobriety, right? So um, you know, I didn't know what God's will was. Everybody talks about God's will when you get sober. God's will, God's will, God's will, but I knew what Devin's will was. And Devin's will was more mine, right? In those first early years, I used to tell myself, because I was so good at getting what I wanted, but it always led to my destruction. It's that selfish and self-centeredness. And those first few years, um, I told myself, if someone tells me no, I'm gonna have to accept, you know, no for their answer. And I've gotten a little away from that. But and you know what? My life started to improve. It's because I wasn't running my life or I wasn't tearing it down or making all these selfish and self-centered decisions. So, you know, I'm eternally grateful for everything I've learned in sobriety, right? And I'm trying to grateful for the guys that were there before me to kind of embrace me and say, hey, go where we go, do what we do, right? And you'll get what we have. And I can tell you what, um, I couldn't even imagine a life like I have today.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Isn't that yeah?

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, couldn't even imagine a life, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

And I tell people that all the time. It's like, you know, once you once you get to that position of truly understanding what this journey is about, the quitting the drinking is is one step. And to be honest, it's the easier step, right? Right. And it's it's the staying stopped and then taking that fearless and searching moral inventory of oneself and really looking at my character defects and being willing to start challenging and changing those. That was the work. It you know, uh we should do a whole podcast on on you know some of this stuff, uh, because I'd really like to get more into the details of that. But it's I always hear people say, because I was in uh I'm not an active member of Alcoholics Anonymous anymore, but I was there for the first 10 years of my sobriety, and people would always drop out on that fourth step. Right. And I was always so confused, I was like, that's not really difficult. For me to write down the stuff that I've done, I know what I did, and for me to tell you, that's fine. It was the ninth step that was terrifying to me, is where I really had to go out and say, Hey, you know what? Let me take responsibility for what I've done, and let me make amends to you, whether that be personally, financially, whatever it is. So yeah, and it's it's it's just it's crazy to look back now. And I'm sure you know, you you've been 16 years, you look back on your life and you think, Yeah, what is this? Because this is certainly not what I had planned, right? Right, right. I had a whole different outline from my life, and this was not it, you know. So so having gone through all of that stuff, right, brings you to this position where uh, and and I think oftentimes we end up in these positions having come through right what we we went through, um, you know, starting early on in high school and and carrying that on for you know 20 plus years of your life, there's a lot of wreckage there. There's a lot of darkness, there's a lot of difficulty, there's a lot of regret, there's a lot of shame, right? And having worked your way through that, oftentimes it brings us to this position of wanting to help other people. And I think we're really effective at being able to do that because it's like, hey man, I've been there. Let me show you the way out, you know. Uh, and so we find ourselves in these positions of being helpers and and doing these sorts of things. So today, are those the things that you're still doing today that you feel are at the core of what keeps you on the path?

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah. So, you know, I'm still active in Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, I have a, like I mentioned earlier, I have a six-year-old son or soon to be six-year-old son. So my meeting count isn't what it it used to be, right? But it's still a priority for me. Um, you know, my wife's sober, it's a priority for our family. So I think that um, you know, uh wellness or sobriety or um whatever we want to call it, it's not a destination, right? It's no it's not someplace I'm ever going to arrive at, but it's a path that I can continuously stay on. Um so I should uh choose to do so. And for me, what they told me was, you know, um you want to grow spiritually, it's through service and self-sacrifice to others when you aren't being paid. So one of the things I love about what we do here is I get to help people, but at the end of the day, I'm getting paid to help people. So I need to have a life outside of this where I'm helping others. Um I've sponsored many men over the years, right? And I think for me, one of the the areas of growth, um, you know, obviously I went through the steps, did all 12 steps myself, but taking other men through those steps, I had to learn so much more um about what what it was about and then practice what I preach. And um, you know, so that service and self-sacrifice to others, I feel like has is just grown me uh in internally, spiritually. You know, another thing I want to talk about is a little bit too is you know, um I I am not a first responder, you know, I'm never gonna be a first responder. But I think one of the reasons that I was so effective in those early years when I was out meeting with people or when I was talking to those men and women on the phone when they called, I've been in those dark places where I think to myself, I'm not gonna do that again tomorrow. And then the next morning I wake up and you know, I drink again, right? So I think what for me, and I often wondered, you know, why did God put me through what he put me through, you know, and for so long. I mean, you talk about it, right? The shame, the just the stuff, you know, that's associated with alcohol and drugs. But and I I feel like in a lot of ways he put me in that position, right? So I can help people a hundred percent I can tell you in those early days when those first responders called, right? I would tell them, I'm not a first responder, but let me tell you, I've been in these positions and being able to jump down in the pit with those guys, with those men and women and pull them out, right, and get them here to you guys, the clinical team. You know, I've had people come up to me and I've had members of the clinical team tell me, hey, you know what this person said, if they didn't talk to you that when they talked to you, they wouldn't be alive today. You know, sometimes the way I look at it is sometimes our biggest crutch turns into our biggest asset, right? And for me, you know, I know that when someone's on their darkest day, that I can have a conversation with them and show them a way, right? Now, whether they take it or not, it's up to them, right? But I can show them what I've done.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah. And I couldn't agree more, right? It's the ability to have that true empathy in those moments and be authentic about, you know, where someone is. And I think having come from that space, right, and I know this is the same thing for me personally, is that I don't look across that table or I don't listen across the phone and think anything other than I understand what it feels like to be where you're at, right? There is no judgment, there is no you should, you shouldn't, how could you, right? It's like it's truly like what do we need to do to get you out of where you're at? And I've been here, right? And only thing I ever wanted in the moments of my darkness was somebody to shine a light on it. Right. I didn't need anybody to point out what I was doing wrong or tell me how I screwed up. I knew all That.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

I was in the depths and the despair of that disease in that moment, and I just needed someone to say, I hear you. Yeah. And I get it. Yeah. And what can we do? Right. Right. And that's it. First responder, not a first responder. I don't think anybody gives a shit in those moments of do you care? Right. And when you're authentic and genuine and you come from a place of I've been there, people feel that. Right. And then that's where they're moving towards and being like, all right, cool. What do we need to do? And I'm trusting you, which is huge for these men and women. Right. So, and it's it's really cool to hear you talk about that because there's so much that comes through the process of getting somebody through the door and actually into treatment. I mean, you know, sometimes you know, and I know that you've worked in admissions and worked closely with admissions. You guys are talking to these people sometimes for months.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

You know, and it's and it's that thing where they cry out for the crisis or whatever's happening, and it's like, okay, we can do this, we can do this. And then 24 hours later, they're like, I'm all right, I'm gonna make it. You know, I appreciate you talking to me last night. It really helped. I'll stay in touch. Yeah, right. And it's like, yeah, man, you know, but you guys are right back on the phone a couple of days. How you doing? Oh, I'm okay, I'm okay. Until they're not, and then you're right there with them. And then, you know, eventually at some point somebody says, okay, right. We're willing to take that next step.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

You know, one of the interesting things I've learned over the years, right, is that really all of our clients, what they're really dealing with is a brain injury, right? Post-traumatic stress is a brain injury, you know. So when you're talking to someone and then they get a good night's sleep and they call you the next day and say, Hey, I don't think I need this anymore. I slept great last night. You know that's like, okay, temporary relief, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Temporary relief. And you know as well as I do when you get to that point of like, I can't take any more, and there's somebody just willing to listen, right, and you dump it all out there, you do feel better. And you're like, okay, I'm gonna be okay. In those moments, I'm not gonna be okay. Just talking with you, I'm gonna be okay. And then you convince yourself, right? Now you go on down the line to break the contract with yourself the next day. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

So I used to always tell guys, you know, listen, you know, if your life, if you're thriving, right? You didn't have a couple of good days, but if you're thriving, then you're on the phone with the wrong people. Right. Right? But if your life is a complete disaster and you don't know what to do, yeah, perfect. We can help, right? You know, and uh uh you know, I always tell guys that listen, you don't have to wait till the DUI happens, you don't have to wait till the DV charge happens, you don't have to wait till the IA investigation happens, you don't have to wait till you're terminated or divorced or arranged from your kids, you don't have to wait, right? You can have you can get here and you can keep everything too, right? It's gonna take a lot of work, you know, and uh and here's the other thing, right? I don't know that anybody ever wakes up and thinks, today's the day I'm gonna commit suicide. Right. And I tried to always stress that to people. It's like, listen, hey, this is serious. We know what happens, right? If this goes unchecked, right? Not to say that everybody has those thoughts, but we know so many of our clients do.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

So don't put yourself in a situation where you know you're you're that close to it, right? And we've had clients that show up that have said that, you know. Hey, if I hadn't talked to you guys when I did, right, I probably wouldn't be alive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Yeah, and that's such a it's such a uh a huge point to to talk about and to look at. And it's a difficult thing to talk about. Nobody ever wants to talk about it, but the reality is, and you know as well as I do, more of our first responders are dying by suicide than in the line of duty, right? And so therein lies a huge problem. And if we're not talking about it, then what are we doing? Right. You know, we're shoving it down, we're pushing it aside, we're saying it's this, we're saying it's that. I I mean, you know, I mean, you're on the same page as I am. I don't give a shit what you say it is. How do we how do we fix it?

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Right, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:41

How do we get to a point where they don't feel like that's the only thing as an option, you know? And so the stress, the the moral injury, the brain injury, I mean the combination of just the overwhelm the sheer overwhelming sense of what it is that they're responsible for constantly, and that's just at the job.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Right. Never mind what's happening at home, right? Right? So now there's just life stressors, regular life stressors. So they've got it, you know, they've got that double blind where it's like they got all this stuff at work, and then they gotta go home and be dad and be husband and and take care of all the responsibilities at home. So there's just so much tied up in this, you know. I think at some point everybody understands how anybody would feel that overwhelmed, right? And when I talk to them a majority of the time, you know, and they're talking about just not wanting to be here and not wanting to feel this way, and I'm like, and they, you know, they talk about suicide. I'm like, do you really want to die or do you just not want to feel the way that you're feeling?

unknown 26:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

And they pause for a minute and they why yeah. So if I can offer you another way out that isn't suicide, would you take it? Well, yeah, okay. Well, let's go this way. Suicide does not have to be the answer. You just don't want to feel the way that you're feeling. And unfortunately, with the brain injury, with the alcohol, they become so impulsive. Right, you know, we we just get those those results that we don't want. So having gone through that, now finding this purpose on your own, right? And feeling good about what you're doing. And I love the fact that you talk about like, yeah, we get paid to do this because so many times, um, you know, being on the front lines and working with these guys, when things get difficult, that's one of the things they love to say. Well, you just do you just do it because you have to do it, you get paid. I just gotta look at them and go, do you get paid to help people?

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah. Yeah. Does it make you want to help people less? Right. No.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Right? Number one. Number two, I'd do so much to help you, regardless of whether or not I'm I'm just blessed enough to get right to be fortunate enough to get paid for it too. Right. But I'm still, I'd still be doing it, just like you mentioned. It's like I you look outside my life, I can promise you, I am freely giving away what was so freely given to me.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

You know, I think it's interesting too, because you know, you bring up that point that we are getting paid to do this, but every single person here. That's why I always say I think God is definitely showed up and when these people arrive, right? It's we always get the right people at the right time, but every single person would drop what they're doing here any day of the week, any holiday, right? Yep. To help one of these men and women when they call, right? I've done it, you know, I remember during COVID, uh, you know, uh COVID, the world was interesting, right? And it got real small, but I kept coming to work every day, bringing Lola with me, yeah. Aussie doodle, right? And uh I was like, you know, but I think what I I think what happened for me is I turned into like a workaholic over those years. And there was just such an abundance of people to help, right, through First Responder Wellness, and I would take calls seven, eight days a week, right? Just nonstop, right? And after three or four years of that, you know, I think I hit burnout, right? Whereas like I I almost felt like I couldn't pick up the phone or have another conversation. Yeah. You know, I hit a wall. You know, for me, you know, uh managing, you know, uh that self-care is also real important, right? So that way we're we're, you know, in good shape. So when someone calls, we are able to help. Um, but I think that's something to note, right? You know, I never thought about drinking once, you know, during that lockdowns, not being able to go to to meetings, right? But you know, I did probably become a workaholic, right? And um so it's interesting to see uh how our program has grown and um you know uh that the new people we've added. I mean, we have an amazing team right now, so fortunate for me that you know I don't have to feel like I'm doing everything myself because there was a while there in those first couple years where I felt like I was doing everything, you know. Um, but we have such an amazing team here that would every single one of them would go above and beyond. Yeah. Day off, whatever, right, to help people.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

And it's interesting you mentioned that, right? I've I've been doing this for I don't know, 15 plus years. I've burnt out a couple of times. Yeah. As you started transitioning into for into first responder one, I was I was probably, I don't know, six months out from the burnout that I had, you know. Um, you know, I mean, and I quit. I quit at one point. You're back, you're back, and and well, he has never let me leave, but um, but yes, it's a real thing, right? It happens to us, the compassion fatigue, all of that stuff, because it is nonstop, right? You know, and I and and there's never a point when we pick up the phone that we're not trying to help somebody with whatever's going on, right? Like, is it getting them to treatment? Is it getting them different resources? Is it just talking them through whatever's happening? Is it a former client? Is it a potential client? Like, who is it? Uh, but it's non-stop. Right. It there is no, like, if you don't intentionally put the phone down and walk away from it, it doesn't stop. Yeah, it doesn't stop. Somebody's always in crisis, you know, whether it's a department trying to figure out what to do with their their person, whether it's the actual person, whether it's a staff member, whether it's a family member, right? Like it's just it's non-stop. And so it is very important that we manage our own self-care and do the things necessary to continue to do that. 100%. But you know, to your point, here we go, right? Like, I'm not gonna say no. 100%, right? Right, we're we're gonna do that, you know, and it's like, yeah, workaholic, call it whatever you want, but I just there's never a point where I'm gonna be like, no. Right. It's like, okay, we'll figure it out. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

You know, I'd say the nice thing about um our program, you know, growing the way we are is now there's balance. So we're not putting people in those positions of burnout anymore. You know, and that means it's it's sustainable. I think for me, um, you know, the thing I miss is the direct client contact, right? I don't have a lot of that anymore, right? We have a huge outreach team, we have a huge emissions team, right? They do all that stuff. When they they need help, they come to me. But you know, sometimes the whole weekend will go by and I'm like, no one's called. But then it's like also too, like this is perfect for where I'm at in my life because I'm coaching my son's soccer team, right? You know, I'm able to be present with my family, you know. So, you know, I think that balance is important, you know. Um, I do miss all so I still have some people that still call me directly, right? That I've just developed relationships way from way back when. And it's great when they call, you know, and then the emissions team are like, how come you're in the middle of all this? I'm like, hey man, they called me.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

They called me, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

And you know, to your point, uh being you know, being part of that, the the development of the program, right? You're able to look back at those early stages. The team wasn't anywhere near what it is. No, yeah, you're looking at over half of the team sitting right here during those periods of time, right? Right? Like it there, it was you, me, it was Odom, yeah, it was Poppy, and that was really it, right? I mean, yeah, we had a we had a handful of of clinicians and some things, but I was the primary case manager, the group facilitator. I mean, you were doing out here working with these departments, and so you know, it was pretty early on. Um, there wasn't everybody was spread thin. Right. You were picking up the phone for the departments, for the clients, for me, for whoever, and we were just trying to figure out what to do to keep, you know, to keep things going. So, and now you look at where we're at, and it's such a big difference, man, and it's such a great program with so many resources as opposed to what it was, you know. Um, and we were still doing great work then, right? You know, we were still doing a lot of hands-on, a lot of stuff, but we've been able to develop things over the years um that just have such a robust clinical presentation these days, great admissions team, you know, you guys are out there doing trainings. I mean, there's so much that's going on in the organization as opposed to what it once was.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

You know, I think it's interesting too because you know, we had this dream, you know, that core group you mentioned, but we had this dream or this belief, right? Yeah, that this is needed. Yeah. Right. And maybe we believed it more than the agencies we worked with back in 2019. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

You know, and probably still some more today.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah. To be honest. But we had this belief and we were like propping it up. And I remember back in the early days when we moved over here, right? And uh uh, you know, uh Joel I was walking down the hall and Joel's like, hey Devin, how's the first responder program going? How's first responder well is? And I said, it's going great. We've got five first responders here right now. I got five first responders here right now. He's like, that's great. How many of them here are here in a scholarship? I go, don't get into the details, man. Don't get in the details. Don't worry about it. Mind your business. Maybe half, you know. But you know, um, my belief back then, and my still my belief today, is the best thing we can do is help these men and women. 100% and um there's nothing better that we can do than having someone leave the program a success story, right? And that's what I was preaching back then and there, right? Is like, listen, the best thing we could do, let's not worry if we can't take their insurance, let's not worry if you know that we're not in network with them, let's not worry about that. Let's let's get them in here, let's help that, help them, right? And then we get when we got up to like 10 clients, I was like, but maybe I can rest for a second. We're doing something, you know, and then 30, 45 days later they all they all left. And it's like, you know, so uh, but you I think something you hit on, right, is um what these men and women really need, right, is a clinically sophisticated program that looks at everything. And what I love about our clinical team here, and the reason the in the very beginning is why I decided to stay, right, rather than go do my own thing is A, I like the culture, and B, I thought these are the best clinicians, right? This core group we have, these are the best clinicians. And I may go my whole career not be able to put together a team like this. Why don't I be a part of this? And for me is a very easy decision um to make. But the clinical sophistication of our program, what it is today, right? The family program, the discharge planning, everything they get when they're here. You know, I remember when, you know, I think I believe it was you and Dr. Odom with I'm not gonna say police chief, fire chief or anything, but you had it we had a chief come down, you know, and meet with the employee. And you guys went in the the room for a couple hours and talking, right? And I'll tell you what, that chief came out of the the uh office and said, you know, I I wasn't sure if this guy was ever gonna make it back, and I see a path now. And what I told him is I would go sit down with him at with his HR meetings. Yep. Right, you know, as long as he's doing the right thing, right? And I think that it just shows that, you know, we care, we're willing to do whatever it takes, and that this program is so sophisticated. We talk about what we're gonna treat here, what we're gonna refer out, what we're gonna defer to after treatment. So everybody kind of leaves with that plan. The thing that really crushes me, you know, is when someone gets here, right, and then they leave early or they don't do the work, right? Because I know what's out there, right? You know, and uh it's not good, you know. And uh if there was, you know, one thing I wish we could do is just wave a magic wand in front of everybody and just say, hey, you're ready. Right. You're gonna let it all go. Because I think that one thing that's uh in common for everybody, the people that get better are the people that do the work and follow the aftercare plan. And the people that don't are the people that don't, right? And unfortunately, you know, it's funny, um, people ask me about AA all the time. What's the success rate in AA? I said, tell you what, it works a hundred percent of the time for a hundred percent of the people that do a hundred percent of the program. Not a true statement. Right. And I feel like the same thing is for this, right? You know, we see the people that stay long enough to do their trauma work, the follow their aftercare plan. We typically don't see them back here again. And then, you know, when we do see people come back, it's the people that say, Hey, I never did my aftercare plan or I stopped doing it at some point.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yep. And then and when they're here, they'll tell you that. Right. They'll tell you that. If they're lucky enough to make it back, they'll tell you that. Um, you know, you you brought up some really good things, and so much of that is still at the core of this program, right? Right? Like those conversations are still happening, right? It's how do we help this person? You know, insurance, no insurance, what's the what what can we do? And so much of the heart of you know, Odom and you and Joel and Michael and myself and Rose and all the people that are kind of at the core, this leadership team is still so much the same. Right. Right? None of none of that has changed, and I think that's what it's definitely what keeps me coming back every single day, you know, is that I know that everybody is in it for the right reasons, and we we're all in it for the mission, and the mission is to help these men and women. And then you get into what it is that we're able to do these days, and it's just tremendous with the the ART and all of the things that we're able to do, the SGB, just some of that stuff that we're utilizing, and then you take that stuff and you go, Okay, now how do we break down this case and this case and this case and what's best for this individual? And a lot of times, you know, they don't see that, right? They don't get to see those pieces, you know, and I get it, I get it. You are in a fight for your life, right? Everything that you've been doing up until this point that hasn't been working, right? And now we're taking away all the pacifiers, or we're putting you in a room and having you face the traumas, right? That's difficult stuff, and nobody wants to do that. And at the core of that is just this huge resistance, right? You know, and then it starts to come out in so many different ways. You guys don't care, it's only about the money, it's only about this, and it's like, no, man, we're just asking you to do the work. Right. If you want to get well, it's gonna require you to do the work. And I love what you said about Alcoholics Anonymous. There's not a truer statement. Yeah, it works 100% of the time for 100% of the people who are willing to do 100% of the work. That's it. Right. If you're willing to do the work, you will get better, and it's no different here. Right. You can't come in here, sit down in a group, right? I tell I tell these guys this all the time. I say, you can come here 45, 60, 90 days, right? You can meet a bunch of great people, you can have some tacos, you can play fart games, you can go back to the house and sit around and smoke a cigar, you can do all of that, and you're gonna leave out of here and just have wasted X amount of your days of time because you didn't, you weren't willing to put in the work. Right. But if you're willing to take the sacrifice that you've already made, which is taking this huge chunk of time out of your life to get well, then let's get well.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

And that means following some direction, doing the difficult things, right? Not being in control, right, which is huge for them. Um, which I mean, I think at its core, addiction is that way with anybody. And you, you know, you talked about your own struggles of not being able to surrender. I went through those same things. It was like, okay, I'll surrender when I'm completely beaten down and everything is burnt to the ground. Okay, I get it. Right. But all I need is that much air, right? All I need is that much will. And I look around and go, it's not that bad. I can put it back together. Yeah, leave it up to me, I'll fix it. Right. No, I'll burn it back down again.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

But it's about that that not wanting to let go of control. And these are men and women who are constantly used to being in control.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

And we talk a lot about that while they're here. So it it is that understanding and the ability to be able to manage those things while they're here with a team of people who are just to your point, everybody's in it for the right reasons, personally, professionally, educated. I mean, you can't you can't find a greater team. Right. And that's honest to God truth. Like these are really good, and at the core of it, they care.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah, they really care.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Bottom line, th they'll they're willing to do whatever it takes to help, right? But we can't do it for people. Nope. That's the unfortunate part, you know. But when you see them come in and you do the work, you know. Um, and I think that's what kind of what you know, that last letting go is a big step, right? And some people never get there. But that la I mean, what's on the other side of that letting go, yeah, right, is everything.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Like everything, right? You can have it all back. You can have the relationship with your kids back, you know, your you know, your relationship with your spouse, right? You know, that looks like you can have it all back, but you have to do the work. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah, and it's it's it's always a difficult piece to get people to understand. It may not be what you want it to look like, right? Right. But if you're willing to turn it over and follow some direction, it's gonna be okay. Right. You know. So we get the opportunity to start Family Week, yeah, you know, this uh this week, starting on Wednesday. You know, you mentioned um a lot of that and the impact that it has, you know, and that's such an incredible piece of what it is that we do here. Uh, something near and dear to my heart, something that I've always loved doing is that family work. Um you know, you being out there and and and being able to talk with these departments and do the kind of stuff that you're doing to help develop things, what are some of the things that you're hearing about families and about some of the work that we're doing and some of the impact that it's having?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

So I think when we look at the family, right? It's like how do we set the client up for success when they go home? And it's we have to offer the family some help, right? Why they're here. So the way I often like to describe our family program is for many, many years, whether the client knows it or not, or the first responder realizes it or not, they've been dragging that family through the mud for many, many years, right? And now they get here and now they're feeling better and they do the work and they're like, hey, great, you know. Meanwhile, right, everybody else may still be a little bit resentful. So when I talk to agencies, it's really about listen, when we look at our outcomes, those family members that participate in the family program, it seems that long term outcomes are are a little bit better just because we've set up that family dynamic um for success. And um I call it the Thunderdome. I think the clients named it the Thunderdome, but one of my favorite things that we do is the Thunderdome. And basically all of the families sit in a circle, and one couple at a time goes out there, and the spouse reads a letter. That we've reviewed and curated, right? But it's their truth, right? And for our clients, it's just about listening and acknowledging, right? And I think that's really, really important process in the family program because that spouse finally is heard, right? And they don't necessarily have to have that conversation when the client gets home, right? So we're really trying to set them up for success. So I think the family program is um phenomenal. And I think that the feedback I've gotten over from spouses and family members that have come over the years has been, you know, kind of reminds me of like the first day is very tense. Nobody really knows. Second day, there's a lot of tears, and by the third day, everybody's hugging each other and feels like family.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

You know, and I think that's it's so important, right? You know, and for us, you know, that's a huge undertaking, right? We don't get paid more for that. No, you know, like that's a huge that's a program within a program for three days here, right? You know, bringing in the food, you know, everything, you know, and that's something we do because we know that these men and women need it. So important and we would be cutting corners and not doing the right thing, right? And they deserve it.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I often think it that it's really hard for people when they go to away a program. And one of the things I want to mention is, you know, when we first started doing this, I used to go out and meet with programs that said they treated first responders, and I would get there and I would be walking around and they'd be showing me the place, and I said, Where are all the first responders? Yeah. Oh, we don't have any right now. I said, Okay, when you get them, where would you put them? Oh, we put them over here. I said, But they're gonna be with uh drug addicts and the alcoholics and or the people with mental health issues, they're they're probably not gonna feel comfortable. Well, da da da da da, you know, I hear all these things. So I stopped going to do those things, right? So I think it's important, right? Because and I think it's important the program that you go to understands what public safety goes through with the moral injury and all the trauma, because essentially if you're not treating that trauma while they're away, yeah, you're doing them a huge disservice. And so many men and women go to programs, and I hear them because they come here years later, right? But they said I went to a program, I went for 30 days, and I got detoxed, and then we didn't really do any trauma work. But they go back to work and they're getting that of boys and that of girls for everybody for raising their hand and asking for help. But deep down inside, right, they know nothing's different, right? And there's a lot of shame, right? We talk about that a lot. There's a lot of shame with having to raise your hand and ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Um, but there's a lot of shame six months, eight months, a year later, raising your hand again or been being intervened on having to go back.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Um, so I think it's really important that uh people go to the right place. And one thing I was always told was you want to judge a treatment program by their website, look at their staff page, and do they have a family program? Those are the two things, right? If they do that, okay, maybe. Yeah. Right. And I think that's just really, really important. So um, I know there's talk about making our program a little longer, the three-day, maybe four days or five day. And I, you know, I don't know if we do that or not, but uh, I think that the people that have gone through the program too would agree that this is exactly what they needed.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Yeah. Yeah, there's such a huge impact in what it is that we're doing when it comes to that. And, you know, we're looking at different resources and how it is that we provide the families even more than what we've been able to provide them over a period of time. Uh the family program, I always explain to people, is um what I call closing the gap theory, right? It's where you you you take this family and the person in crisis, and they're in this huge amount of dysfunction, and you know, the PTS and all of the, you know, the alcohol, all of the things that are happening, and we take that person in crisis, we separate them from the family, and we bring them the treatment. Right. And they get the treatment, they get a case manager, they get a therapist, they get a psychiatrist, they get multiple groups a day, they get this huge supportive living, and so they're moving rapidly away from the dysfunction. Where's the family? It's just left right here, right? So there's this huge gap in between the family who's still managing everything the way that they were managing it before the person went to treatment. And so, how do we close that gap? Right. And so the idea is that family program comes along and says, we're gonna give you some education, right? We're gonna get you guys talking again, we're gonna start to raise it so that this thing starts to do this versus we're gonna send you back home and you guys are so far apart, more than likely the client's gonna go back down, right? And so we're setting them up for a failure in those moments of doing that. And so we learned early on, well, how do we bring the family members in? How do we get them educated? How do we get them some support, right? How do we get these men and women to talk about their experiences? Because don't talk, don't trust, don't feel, right? That's all of the stuff that happens within that family unit. Uh, and so the letter reading, right? Just so everybody is very aware, if you hear any of this, right? It is, it is absolutely uh therapeutic. There are rules to this thing, right? Like you guys don't just get to freestyle some letter. And I, it's funny, but not funny, because during the family program, we separate the families, um, and they go oftentimes with Dr. Rose and and Dr. Odom and they process what they're you know, what they've been going through. And I'll take the clients. And so I'll sit with the clients and I'll sit them down. I go, okay, this is the part where now that we've separated you from them, they're upstairs and it's a free-for-all. And they just get to talk about all the bad stuff that you've done. They've got they get to say everything that they want to say about you. They're just gonna sit up there and they're just gonna talk horrible about you. And they just kind of look at me like, and I go, that, and absolutely not. Like, what benefit would be that would that be to anyone? Right. We would never do that. Right. And we're not gonna sit you guys in a circle and just have you cuss each other out. Like, that's not what we're doing, right? There's rules to this thing, and what you have to understand is what people are getting to do in those moments is express what they have gone through, right? What their experience has been, how they have felt, right? It's not about, dear Devin, you son of a right? Like, no, right. What benefit would be, and not only that, that's an email or a phone call. We don't have to bring your family members in to do that. Yeah. I can call you and put you on speakerphone and say, ma'am, would you mind telling Devin uh what you think about him? Like, you know, so there's a ton of benefit to that. And what it does is it just starts to take down some of those barriers, right? The communication has been broken for so long, right? It's we don't talk, we don't trust, we don't feel. We're focused on what is wrong, not who is wrong. Or I'm sorry, we're focused on who is wrong and not what is wrong. We're not talking about the problem, we're talking about the behaviors and we're blaming and we're shaming and we're doing all these things back and forth. And in those three days, we're able to educate them, have some experiential process in and around that. And to your point, one of my favorite things is watching everybody come in and they're terrified. Right. And you can see and they're angry and they're upset and they don't know what to expect. And by the end of the three days, they're sitting there, you know, everybody's gone through all of their emotions. So it's just it's a beautiful thing, and it's one of the um the critical points for anybody in recovery, you know, and to your point, if you're if you're in a treatment program, they don't have a family program, right? I don't know what they're doing. Right. You know, and we're looking at ways to kind of expand that and do some do some things differently. So it's good to know that these departments are aware of this, and you know, oftentimes it's the spouses that are calling, you know, it's the family that they're having issues and they're saying, Hey, what's going on? We need help. You know, I'm sure you guys get a ton of calls from from family members as well when it comes to admissions and and the development piece of this. So um when it comes to all of those things, right, and and and kind of where we're at now, um talk to us just a little bit about how it is that you so let me back that up. Here's what I explain to people, right? When it comes to first responders and um how it is this this whole treatment thing works and how we get people here. Um when it comes to first responders, I always tell people they got a guy, right? They got a guy. And what I mean by that is if you say, Hey, Devin, uh, I need some wheels for my truck, Devin's first responder goes, Oh, I got a guy, right? Right? Hey, we need a deck built for the back. Oh, I got a guy, right? And so what we had to do is become the guy for mental health and addiction treatment, right? And so that when everybody says, Hey man, I got a guy who needs some help, blah, blah, blah. Oh, hey, we got a guy, we got a place, right? And so talk to us a little bit about what you're doing out there with these departments to help them, you know, to reach their employees to get them here. Talk to us a little bit about what that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

So I think um, you know, all these years later, I think a lot of it is just education around how an agency can support their employees, both getting here, staying here, yeah, and then when they return home, um, you know, getting somebody here is the easy part. You know, we've learned so much over the years. Yeah. We really have. I mean, we've been the tip of the spear in so many ways. But I will say this the number one barrier for after shame and stigma, let me make that clear. So the number one barrier after shame and stigma to either get here or come stay and complete a can uh uh successful treatment episode is paid time off. Yep. Most of these men and women have burned through all their time. Yep. That first year when I was on the phone, year and a half, two years, I was on the phone with every single one of them. I can't tell you, Chris, how often I would tell hear people say when I said, Hey, we have a 45-day minimum or a 40-day minimum.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

They'd be like, Hey, Devin, listen, uh, I've burned through all my time. Yep. My wife has one foot out the door already. I've got two little kids at home under five. If I can't keep groceries in the fridge and the lights on while I'm gone, um, I'll be divorced by the time I I come home. My my wife will be at her parents' house. I'm not willing to do it. And the sad part about that is that this person just got done telling me that they're drinking every day, they have intrusive thoughts, they're probably not sleeping a lot at night, and whether they admitted it or not, they're suicidal ideation presence. So what we've been able to do is because of the success we've had here is to really um leverage that and have conversations with the agency, you know, about hey, maybe you should have a paid admin leave policy to support employee wellness, right? I mean, think think about it, right? Um you're just you're just one lawsuit away from having this person on the front page of the newspaper, right? Getting hurt themselves, hurting member of the public, you know, getting a coworker hurt, right? So we've seen a lot of agencies um start to adopt policy like that. You know, um, so I think we do a lot of education. Uh we actually met with one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the country, uh, top 10 for sure. Um, and we spent about 10 hours with them. A group of us went out there, we flew out of state, and we spent about 10 hours meeting with key people within their organization. Nice um all day, and we made some recommendations to them um because they were having trouble uh with a process. And one of our recommendations was the paid admin leave process, and it actually made it into their policy, their official policy. That's huge. And I can't tell you how many this is a large agency, right? But we've probably had 35 or 40 of their employees show up here over the years since that policy is in place. And you know why they're coming forward now and asking for help? Because they know there's a policy supporting them getting help and getting back to work. And I will tell you this about most first responders just want to get better, yeah, want their time covered, and they want to get back to work, they want to get back to work, right? So having a safety net that avoids that work comp um process, I think could be um really advantageous for a lot of agencies. Now in California, what we're doing with a lot of agencies was we're streamlining the work comp process. So what we can do typically, you know, it's taken you know 45, 60, 90, 180 days to get these claims approved and then get them to us, and you know, because you deal with the clients. But people that come here after nine, 10 months of sitting at home on the couch, right, they don't want to go back to work. What we found is that the more, the sooner you get your employee help, the more likely they are to want to go back to work with a psychological injury like this. That's a that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

So we've streamlined that work comp process. Um, the way it works now is employee can come forward and literally raise their hand, like we got a call on Friday. Yeah, I think we got a guy coming in for work comp either today or tomorrow, right? Where they get to us. Now we don't have an approved claim, but what we have is um an authorization to treat. And then we have independent psychologists, right, who aren't employees, they're independent contractors who will do the doctor's first report, the AOE, COE, the PR2s, the PR4s. So it's we're essentially getting the employee help right away, and we're essentially doing the state of California workers' comp documentation at the same time. Yep. And what that does, it actually cuts down the amount of days that the agency has to backfill that employee's position. So save saving them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_03 56:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Right. Um, by streamlining that process. So I think that for our team, what we're really doing is about education, right? We're bringing people here, we're showing them what it is, right, what it isn't. And so many people say, I had no idea. Right. You know, I I had no idea. Um, so it's very informative. Um, you know, we're making presentations to large groups. We were at a large sheriff's department recently, and one of our team members was talking to the top 100 people in their organization, and originally they gave us 20 minutes, and he was in front of them for almost an hour. The sheriff was there, one of the assistant sheriffs was there. Um, and we've had a lot of success with that agency getting their employees back to work, and that's really what it's about, right?

SPEAKER_04 57:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

I think everything we're doing at the end of the day is the right thing to do for these men and women, but from the agency perspective, right, it costs them a lot of money to lose one of these people. It costs them a lot of money to medically retire them. Yes. Um, and then go out and recruit, train, and hire someone new. I mean, so many agencies we talk to, it's like, hey, 50-60% of our force is under five years, right? You know, so this is really in a lot of ways an employee retention program. Yep. And what it does for the employee gives them their life back. So I think, you know, that's what we're doing a lot of these days is just having those, having that education, um, you know, and then taking care of the peer supporters, right? Through peer support training, through the counseling team. Uh, we're launching a first of its kind peer support retreat in June.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Um, so announcement just went out. So for years, you know, we've done the peer support team retreat.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

The problem is the agency has to send all their peer supporters at once or over two things. A lot of agencies like, hey, that's a lot for us this year.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

The deal took everybody off the schedule.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

We don't want to, you know, you know, so they couldn't do it. So we've had so many agencies say, Hey, can I just send two or three? And in the past, it's been no, it's designed for the team. So we're launching our first peer support retreat. And again, the peer supporters take on all this vicarious trauma, right? You know, and if they don't when I used to go talk in front of a peer support team is way back when I used to ask, okay, who's who's ever been to therapy for or who's done counseling before? And back in like 2019, 2020, 2021, a few hands would go up and not many. And now when I go ask, hey, who's been to see a clinician before, who's done therapy, almost everybody's hands go up, right? It's like, hey, listen, you have to take care of yourself. So what we do at the peer support team retreat, it's really about you know, debriefing, wellness visits, it's really about processing their own stuff. So it's helping the helpers, man. Exactly. So that way they're right, so they don't have burnout, right? Oh yeah. You know, and so that way they're they're great. So they they can because we know how the peer support team works, right? You have 20 members, one or two people are doing all the work.

unknown 59:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

And these guys, right, they're helpers at their core, right? And so, you know, they're first responders. So they're not just, hey man, how you do, right? Like they're invested. And these are their people. Oftentimes they can be their friends, right? And I don't know that they have enough training to understand what not to do and how to take care of themselves, right? So that's a huge thing, and I'm so happy to hear that you're doing that peer support um retreat because that's gonna help so many of them. I want to unpack a few things that you said because you really talked a lot. And again, I think at some point I would like to bring you back and talk specifically about some of the things that you just brought up. But I want to tell you what I see on my end, right? You know, frontline with these men and women and how what you're talking about adds to such a better treatment episode, right? There's two things. One, when you look at the work comp process, right, to the men and women whose whose departments aren't supportive of that process, they're left to do that stuff and navigate that on their own. And if you've ever worked with work comp or the DMV or any other of these big, you know, these big systems, it's a nightmare. And that in itself puts so much stress on these men and women that they their heads can't be in two places at one time. We're asking them to be here, feet on the ground, be present, do treatment, and they're off over here trying to navigate the work comp process because their HR department or department just doesn't know what they're doing, uh, and then they're trying to talk to lawyers and attorneys. So it's that's a mess. So when we can streamline that and the departments can say, we've got that piece, sign here, sign here, go get well.

unknown 1:00:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

What we see, right, is it's twofold. One that wellness program that has been shouting wellness from the top of the hill, now has a backbone and is taking action.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

Right. And now the department who said, Hey, we're with you, brother, we're gonna do it, we're gonna take care of you, is actually following up. So that person feels cared for, they they feel valued, right? And now, up to your point, their bills are being paid and all that stuff's happening. So they don't have to worry about that piece. Now they can sit in the seat, now they can be present, now they can get what it is that they came here for. You talked about the people that are struggling not having any vacation time because you know, a lot of these men and women would say, Hey, you know what? That's fine. I'll use my own time. Who cares? Right? I'm I am what's what's important here. I'm gonna get well, I'll use my own time. The only problem is I've used my own all my own time calling in, struggling, mental health days, days where I'm hungover. I have no more time, and now I've thrown up my hand and say, hey, I need help. And the department goes, uh, well, you don't have any more time.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

When the department says, Okay, you know what? We've got this admin leave figured out, right? Just sign here, you'll get X amount for whatever, right? We also use that as part of the treatment episode to go, hey man, your depart because a lot of times they'll say, I gotta get back to work, right? Right? Because now it's getting real, we're having to deal with stuff and then, hey man, I gotta get back to work. No, the department says you you need to be in treatment and they're willing to support you. So when we start removing all of those barriers, and you know this, trying to get somebody into treatment. Well, I got this and I gotta do that, and I can't go there because I got the and the thing on the thing, and then you're like, no, we took care of that. No, that's fine. No, you don't have to do that. Yeah, no, the wife said, please go, right? Because that's the other one. They'll they'll be here. The wife needs me at home. I'll say, hold on one second. Let me call a case manager. Can you talk to so-and-so's wife? No, she does not want him at home right now. She loves him, she wants him to stay there. Yeah, look, man, the wife wants you here, the kids want you here, the job wants you here, the job's gonna pay you. Right. What say ye? You know, what excuse do you have now?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:05

Got him. You know what that's interesting, you know, it's that I don't know if I want to call it delusion, but there's never a good time to go to treatment. Never. Right? There's always a million things. And then the holidays are coming, I'll just wait till January. It's like, listen, yeah, you know, um ye many, many, many, many years ago, um, I got a call and it was a couple in the therapist office. And uh they had just the spouse had just with the therapist's help, told the husband, you go to treatment in 24 hours, or we're getting divorced. Here it is. You know? Yeah. And he was very willing at that moment right to be on the phone with me. And then 15 minutes later, when he called me from the parking lot, he was telling me, you know, her birthday's coming up and I gotta be there for it. I go, We got this vacation. Yeah, bro, like did you just forget about it? 15 minutes ago? Like I heard him say it, right? Don't like, don't, you know, like, but it's like, you know, it's never a a good time. And I think that there's all those barriers, you know. And I always say, like, listen, thank God you're in a lot of pain, you know, because if you're just in a little pain, right, you may just be enough. You may just, yeah, you may just tolerate it, tolerate it, you know, and thank God you're in a lot of pain because when you're in a lot of pain, your life changes. You're willing to do the work, yep, you know, and get here.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yep. When the pain of remaining the same becomes greater than the pain of change, right? That's when we move towards it. And I talk about that a lot while while people are here. It's like you'll tolerate a lot of discomfort and a lot of pain just to stay where you're at. But one day that becomes much more than this idea of moving towards change, and we go, hey, you know what? Okay, maybe it's not such a bad idea. And there's never a perfect time. I tell people this all the time. I'm like, listen, nobody's here because everything's going well. Nobody's here because you didn't have anything else to do. Right. You're not here because it was in the five or the 10-year plan, right? Check myself into a mental health facility. No, you're here because the wheels fell off, dude. You're here because nothing is going well. Yeah. So you can tell me that you got to do this and you got to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

You know, one of the things that I think about with me and what I did in the beginning, that jumping off point, that decision point, because I gotten sober lots of times, but I never did the work. Right. Right. And I never got the results. You know, and then I was like, ah, this doesn't work. You know? Then I thought to myself, like, you know, I was 32 at the time when I got sober, and I thought to myself, like, I'm gonna be 50 or 60 or older, still in the same place, and unless I start doing something different. So what I told myself is start taking chances.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

And I don't mean like live dangerously, like all these things that I'm telling myself don't work and I don't need to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Take a chance. Take a chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Be honest, do it, right? Do it, be honest, right? Take a chance, right? And it's so funny because that all those things that I knew wouldn't work, as soon as I did them, right, my life forever changed.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Right. And I was like, why did I wait till I was thirty two? Like I should have done. Done this at 22.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

You weren't ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Well, I I wasn't, right? I had to be able to do that. It was not ready. Definitely. Yeah. You know, 32 was barely ready. But like you said, right? It was just the pain of staying the same, watching my friends have lives, be successful, right? Have family around them, have children, you know, get married, all of those things, buy houses, right? And here I am. Here I am, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

You know, there's this weird thing that happens, I think, when you start addiction early. You don't have that similarity. It's that you keep down this trajectory, right? Because in the beginning it was a great time. We're partying, everybody's with us. Yeah. And all of a sudden people start falling off. Right. And they start going and getting married, and they start going to college, they start getting these jobs, they start having lives. And maybe there's a handful of us kind of left around, but even some of those guys start going, man, this isn't much. Right. But we just and then you and then you're sitting there and you're 30 somebody years old and you're like, my friends got kids, they got families, they got careers, they got houses, and I'm still doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

I'm sleeping on a friend's couch. You know, like you know, not working out. It's not working out, you know. Yeah, but we're always the last people to know. Yeah. We're always the last people to know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:15

So it's been great to kind of talk to you about, you know, your own journey, some of the stuff that we experienced here, you know, early on, and and how you've helped develop those things. And um again, I'm truly grateful for the role that you've played in in helping to get the organization to where it is today. I know that you've been a huge part of that. Um, talk to us a little bit about what is to come, right? Is there anything out there that you see moving forward that, you know, what is to come for first responder wellness in your position?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

So it's an interesting question. I think always uh it's program refinement, right? We constantly so um we had a fire department here, one of the, you know, I don't know, top three, four fire largest fire departments in the in the country here, and we've been working with them for years, and uh it was the chief over wellness, and he brought about 20 team members with him, their behavioral health team. And what he said to us was at the end of the day, is hey, I've been watching you guys for a lot of years. Yeah, and I've I think you were there, I think you remember this. Yeah, he goes, I've been watching you guys for a lot of years, and I've been talking to my team who's familiar with treatments and your model is a little bit different, right? You're asking people to stay here a little bit longer, but we're having a lot of success with you guys. And he goes, Um, I really see you as the pinnacle, as the top of the mountain. He said, I'm gonna challenge you to stay at the top, right? You know, and he says, because most places will rest on their laurels, right? So I think for me, right, or our organization, right, and the goals it's program refinement. How can we always make sure that we're we have the best outcomes, that we're looking at everything, that nothing's falling through the cracks, right? And um, you know, we can offer the best service. And my focus lately also has been on workers' comp after people leave. Yeah. Because here's one of the things I've noticed is a lot of TPAs don't have a good process to get people back to work. No, you know, they're barely figuring out uh mental health, they're barely figuring out PTSD. Yep. You know, we sometimes we get crazy calls from the TPAs. I mean, this person may never go back to work, and they the person's been here for 10 days and the TPA will call and said, Do you ever return the work date? No. But what's the plan to get people back to work? So what we're doing with workers comp on the back end is we're starting to work with after they leave our program and when they get home to provide a lot more support, um, which will strengthen um outcomes. So I think that um I also see treatment as being more regionalized as time grows. You know, I mean, people come here from all over the country. Yeah, they do, right? Yep. Um, I think there's a lot of people that would love to go down the street, right? So we've opened our first um outpatient program in Washington, in Kent, Washington, and um right now we're offering two levels of outpatient care, uh, three hours a day. And I think we're just getting ready to start six hours a day um outpatient treatment. So I see a lot more, and that will take those people that aren't in a lot of pain yet and give them an off-ramp before it's it's really, really bad. Because here's what you hear from our clients it's this program saved my life, it saved my marriage, it saved my career.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

Right. And we want to get to people sooner. So I think when we look at what's in store for first responder wellness, it's opening up more outpatient programs throughout the country where people can get care close to home. And then um, you know, having first responder wellness in Newport Beach, which is that backstop for those people that are gonna need more. Um, so I see a lot of good things happening in our future. I see more and more of the right people showing it up at the right time.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Um, you know, we're starting to get recognized by a lot of different organizations, right? You have Porak, the Fraternal Order of Police, the California State Firefighters Association, that's all um labeled us a vetted and approved program. They've all been here and they've all vetted us, right? And they're endorsing us to their members. And I think I think more of that to come. And I here's the one thing I I do want to say, and this is very, very important for if you're an agency leader, a peer supporter out there. I want you to understand that behavioral health treatment, it's not like taking your car to the car wash. You take your car to the car wash, it's dirty, goes through the car wash, comes out clean, except for a spot on the window. Hey, you guys missed a spot. This is your fault, right? Right. Behavioral health treatment, right, it's not for the people that want it or need it, it's for the people willing to do it. So if you have an employee, right, who shows up, right, and they do the work and they follow their aftercare plan, we're gonna see a success story. If you have an employee that gets here and never lets the walls down, right, doesn't do the work, doesn't follow an aftercare plan, we're gonna have a different outcome. And it's not that the program failed, right? It's that the employee wasn't ready. So I think it's really, really important for agencies to understand that you don't make or break your decision if you're gonna send people a treatment off of one case. Right. Right. You think, okay, is this person ready? Are they willing to do the work? Yeah, right. And, you know, so it's important. You know, I've had agencies come up to me and say, hey, we've sent 10 people through your program and they're all back at work. They're all doing great. I'm like, that's fantastic, but guess what? That's not a realistic statistic, right? Don't right? You know, we're gonna see some trips and falls, right? Hopefully everybody gets back up, right? But we're gonna see some stuff, right? So it's really important that people understand behavioral health, and I don't think a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:15

Most people don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

And it's I mean, and I'm learning something about it every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

And I've been I've been personally and professionally doing this for decades, man. And it's like you learn something more about it every day, the human condition, you know, and you can't take one person and send them over there and and be like, okay, cool, he's gonna come through, he's gonna get a certain little certification or certificate, says he graduated and and he or she's gonna be good. And it's like, no, we don't know that. Right. You know, you might have a person that comes through 45 days of treatment and they go on to excel and okay, great, but you can't say that's gonna be everybody. Right. We've gotten so much better at talking with departments, and you know, there was a point in time where we didn't want to say, hey man, this guy's not doing well, you know, it's a reflection of the program. There was just a lot, it was very difficult, but we're we're now much more transparent with them and letting them know, like, hey, here's what we're seeing, right? Right? He showed up, he was doing well, we're working on A, B, and C.

unknown 1:13:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

He's super resistant. She doesn't want to take direction. Right. Here's our prognosis based on the clinical work that that he or she has done, you know, and um some departments are on board with that, you know, and it's like when that person goes back, if they fall off, it was like, well, we we kind of expected that because first responder wellness was very transparent with us and saying, hey, unfortunately they didn't engage or they were more focused on this, you know, we get we get a lot of that too. Um you know, it's always interesting to me when you look at somebody's website and it's like a hundred percent success rate. It's like okay. Right. In what? Right in a 30-day lockdown facility. Sure, anybody can keep somebody stable or sober for 30 days if you don't let them out of the box.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:05

So, but there's a lot to it. And so it's it's good to know that you guys are out there, that you're having these conversations with these departments. Um, you know, it's it's uh it's great to hear that, you know. I always tell people, you know, in in my vision for this, right? Like when it comes to to drug and alcohol treatment and mental health treatment, everybody knows Betty Ford, right? Right? Everybody Betty Ford's been around for for years and years and years. Everybody knows Betty Ford. I tell I tell people this all the time we're gonna be the Betty Ford of first responder treatment. Everybody will know first responder wellness because we're committed, everybody's on the same page. Continuous quality improvement is something that, you know, we're constantly sitting down, we're looking at things, how do we improve, taking the feedback from the departments, from the clients, you know, and really kind of refining and defining what it is that we're gonna be. It's a constantly evolving thing, as is this, you know, mental health and addiction. We're learning so much more about it every single day and through every single case, right? You know, so having the departments support their employees, I don't like, listen, there's two ways you look at this, right? You can look at this surely as a numbers game, right? You can look at it surely as a numbers game, right? For for these departments, you want to just look at the numbers. How much have you already invested in this human being just to get them to the position where they're at to do what it is that you need them to do? Right. They've they've invested so much. So do you want to just protect your investment? Right, get the extended warranty, man. Let's go, right? Like invest in them just a little bit more, help them to do that, right? And then you throw in the human aspect on top of that, right? How do you say no?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:44

As a department, how do you say no? Right. When what we're telling you is get them here, get them here sooner, right, get them paid, remove as many barriers as you can and allow us to help them do the work, they're gonna come back a better human being and therefore a better employee. Right, right? And what are they gonna do? They're gonna go tell that guy next to them, hey man, right, here's what happened when I raised my hand. Right. They they have my back.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

Versus some of these departments that are still old school. I know mental health is not a thing. Right. You suck it up, you shut up, you don't talk about it. If if if if it's bothering you, maybe you're not cut out for the job. Like to think that it's 2026 and we're still hearing that blows me away. Right. The fact that seven years ago, right, program like this didn't even exist, eight years ago, it didn't even exist.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:37

There was a list of numbers that you called, right, which might have been an EAP that was gonna give you a handful of more numbers, and then there's a suicide hotline. Right. That was a wellness program. Right. And maybe some exercise or something. Right. That was a wellness program just seven years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

So to know that we're doing what it is that we're doing and how it is that we're doing is huge. You know, and um if someone is to to be struggling and, you know, whether it's mental health or addiction and wanting or looking for help, what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

So, you know, you don't have to when you call and talk to our admissions team, right? That's four people. It's Shannon, Jeff, Charlie, and Marina, right? There's it's a private conversation, you're not committing to anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:21

You know, um, I always like to say sometimes we paint ourselves into a corner with our thoughts. So I can't do this because of that. Just call. Call. Ask some questions. Yeah. Call, ask some questions. Hear more, you know, about you know what it is uh that you may be committing to. But there's there is no commitment. So I would encourage people to reach out. Like I said, you never know when you're gonna wake up and that's the day where you end it all, right? We want to avoid that as much as possible, right? So, you know, um, yeah, I I think, you know, we had a there was a a suicide recently in the last year or so, and I reached out to this department because I talked to somebody who there with the same first name a couple years ago, you know, and I said, Hey, was this the guy I talked to? And they said, No, that guy's got three years sober. He's not great. Um, this guy never reached out for help, wasn't on peer support, it's radar. You know, and it's like, listen, you know, people care about you, right? You know, people care about you and the those things you're telling yourself that lead to that decision, right? There's help out there for you. You know, um, I remember uh we had an alumni come through our program and um he reached out uh years later um because he was the one who found his ex-partner, old partner um who had self-inflicted gunshot wound and died from suicide. And I said, uh, hey, I want you to come here on Saturday morning and you know, come to the group we run Saturday morning. I want you to share your story. And he said, Hey, can I bring my my current partner with me? Because we both found him. I said, Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

And he came in here and he shared, you know, within 24 hours, you know, um, between him and the gentleman who passed away's wife, they got over like 600 or 1400 calls and text message saying, Hey, this is how the he impacted me. I've known him for this many years. And here's a guy that said, Hey, I don't have any friends anymore, no one cares about me, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

Um, and the interesting thing that happened here for our group is we had four or five guys in a program at the time whose family members had walked in the room when they had a weapon out and were about to end it all. And it was so impactful for those four or five guys to hear um, you know, that hey, people care about them, that you know, they were pulled aside afterwards and people were talking to them. So, you know, um I think just you know, um reaching out, right? Understanding that, you know, I know it's a secret, I know nobody knows, and I know you're afraid to tell people, but guess what? When you get here, everybody's got that same secret and it's normalized. It's so not funny, but it's so um amazing how quickly a lot of the shame dissipates once you get here because they're 60, 70, 80, 90 men and women with that same secret. And all of a sudden it's like it's not taboo anymore. It's like, listen, it's normalized, and it's if I follow all these steps, I can get better. So I think it's important, you know, if you're struggling to just reach out and get help and start with counseling if this isn't right for you. Right. But do something. The worst thing you could do is wait or call us and ask us to recommend a therapist or a counselor for you. And I think if you're a supervisor, if you're a leader at a department, I think you need to have a policy in place that supports your employees and they come forward and ask for help. Because I will tell you this you know, that person that comes forward and asks for help, I can guarantee you there's four or five people way worse than them that are just watching to see how they get treated. And guess what? If they get treated right, if they get taken care of, if they come back to work, they're not penalized, right? If they get supported, what you're doing is you're creating an environment, right, where more people are going to come forward and ask for help, right? And that's what you want. You want healthy employees. You don't want everybody getting divorced, right? You don't want everybody, you know, not showing up for work, right? You don't want that, right? So have a policy to support your employees, right? 100%. A clear policy that respects them, right? That treats them with dignity, that gets them helped quickly, the right help, and then gets them back to work quickly. So I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:10

That's huge. And I've seen both. Yeah. I've seen people come here and say, I'm here because I know a guy who came through the program and my department supported him 100%, and it it put me in a position to be able to raise my hand. And I've also had people say, I'm here on my own dime, and I'm not telling my department a word because I know a guy who reached out for help and they just they treated him like crap. Eventually they moved him off, and he's he's no longer employed. So I can't have them know, which is is it's just detrimental to anybody's career or their their recovery. It makes this makes it that much more difficult that they have to hide that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

So I think if you're a agency supervisor and agency leader right now, I think you need to think to yourself about how much pain you would have to be in personally to come forward to raise your hand to say, hey, I think I need to go to this program, I think I need to be gone from my family for 45 to 90 days, I think I need to be away from you guys from 45 to 90 days, and think about how much pain they have to be in for them to come forward and ask for that. And think, or think about for yourself how much pain would you have to be in to ask that? And think about when someone comes forward, you need to help them.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

And that and that's a thing, right? We're asking people nonstop.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:22

These departments have posters up, right? They have the ads. We're asking these people nonstop, raise your hand and ask for help.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:30

Then we got to be there to help.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:32

You know, and I think that's one of the things that we understand is so urgent when we pick up the phone or when somebody shows up. So it's been a great conversation. Yeah. Thanks for finally getting me on. Whatever. You sound like Joel, who got the official invite. Um and you know, we've cut we covered quite a bit. I I think there's a few things at some point I'd like to have you come back and talk just specifically about those things because I think they're important. And one of them is how we get departments to support, you know. So if you are uh, you know, a leader in in these departments, you know, reach out, reach out to Devin, reach out to us, get a tour, come through, ask some questions, see what we can do to help you develop a wellness plan that's truly going to support the people that you, you know, that you care for so deeply, right? Which is the employees of your departments.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

Can I say one more thing?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:22

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

So um we need to recognize that a lot of senior leadership, like the chief, right, didn't necessarily come up in a environment of wellness, right? A lot of these guys came on, they were trained by Vietnam veterans, right? Where it's like, hey, rub some dirt on it, suck it up. Yeah. Um one of the things we're doing um is we're we have a police chief, sheriff, wellness and resilience workshop, and then a fire chief wellness and resilience workshop, and it's really designed for the top person in the organization. And it's at our retreat center up in Idlewild. It's there's no more than 10 attendees at a time. Nice. And it's two nights, three days. It's really like 48 hours, and it's um we've gotten amazing feedback from these police chiefs, from these fire chiefs, these sheriffs that have gone through it. One of the things we're doing here um through our nonprofit, the First Responder Health Foundation, is we're making that retreat free because we believe if more chiefs were exposed to wellness, and we've actually we're actually already seeing this happen. Um so you can go to our website, it's frhealth.com. You can look under the shift wellness tab and look at the retreats. But if you're a police chief, a sheriff, um a fire chief, um, you know, the top person in your organization, we'd love to have you attend. And what we've noticed is all the chiefs show up and then we ask, you know, who's talking about wellness, who's promoting wellness? I support it, who's doing it for themselves, and everybody's hand comes down, right? So what we've been able to do is we've been able to expose a lot of these um senior leaders to this, and we've seen a trickle-down effect at these agencies, right? We're having a huge success story um with a well, I won't mention the name, but a large sheriff's department. We're having a huge success story with them, with their top two or three people went through the workshop because we also have a command staff workshop. Yeah, and their top two or three people went through it, and we're starting to see a huge benefit there. They're sending all of their leadership um through something similar like this, as well as to our peer support um retreat. So I just wanted to mention that before we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:20

Absolutely, you know, and let's just continue continue to develop these resources that are gonna help these men and women along the way. And, you know, if you know better, you can do better. And to your point, we get it. Right, right. This isn't pointing a finger at anybody and saying this is your fault, right? But at the same time, we know that if we know better, we can do better, right? And we get it. You guys weren't listening this is a huge culture shift in so many directions. We understand that a lot of people were brought up in that, you know, if it's too hard for you, then maybe it's not for you. You suck it up, shut up, move on, like all of those things. We we get that, right? Right. But we're also understanding that as a result of that, you too are probably suffering. Right. And if we can get you into one of these leadership things, right? Get you into one of these retreats for the chiefs, uh, and and get some understanding about how you've been trying, you know, struggling and suffering and how it is different for you as a leader. We understand that too, right? Then we can get that stuff to start trickling down so that we can help everybody in and along the way. So it's been it's been a pleasure to be here with you. We've covered quite a bit and uh I'm grateful for it. So if you're out there, just know that we're here or pick up the phone, ask for help, just ask ask for some questions, right? Don't let the stigma s keep you sick and stay resilient.