The First Responder Wellness Podcast
First Responder Wellness is a residential and intensive outpatient treatment center that exclusively treats public safety professionals for alcohol, post-traumatic stress, addiction, anxiety, and depression. Since 2018, we have had more than 1,800 public safety professionals attend our long-term program. On The First Responder Wellness Podcast, we sit down with members of our clinical team, organizational leadership, subject matter experts, and alumni who have experienced the program firsthand. Each episode is designed to bring insight, hope, and practical tools to first responders and their families, while shedding light on the unique challenges and resiliency within the public safety community.
The First Responder Wellness Podcast
Retired Deputy Chief Fred Mathis | 35 Years in the Fire Service: The Calls Add Up
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In this episode of The First Responder Wellness Podcast, Chris Logan sits down with Fred, a retired Los Angeles firefighter and Deputy Chief, to talk about 35 years in the fire service, the calls that stayed with him, and the cost of always trying to “stay strong.”
Fred shares what it was like starting his fire career at Fire Station 9 on Skid Row, working some of the busiest assignments in Los Angeles, and slowly realizing that the calls he thought he had buried were beginning to add up.
He opens up about PTSD symptoms, recovery, the stigma around asking for help, and why going to treatment became one of the best decisions he ever made.
Today, Fred uses his own experience to help other first responders understand that needing help is not weakness. Sometimes the most courageous thing you can do is raise your hand and say, “I need help.”
For confidential support, or simply to learn more with no commitment, contact us:
https://frhealth.com/
888-443-4898
In my last position as a deputy chief, I was in charge of the mental health unit. I was doing all this stuff, right? Realizing that, you know, I should take advantage of this stuff. But you know what? I'm the leader. I can't raise my hand. I can't tell everybody that I'm struggling inside. I look fine on the outside, and I'm just crumbling on the inside. Recurring thoughts, flashbacks, night terrors. My stoic nature allowed me just to hold that in. Meanwhile, like every day off, I'm just I'm hitting the bottle hard. My wife told me she was gonna divorce me. My kids look like I was from Mars. I went from this super motivated, disciplined person to like a shell of the person that I used to be. Toughest phone call I ever made. For me, it was just like meeting defeat. And going to treatment um was the best thing I ever did. One year sober, uh, and I realized that I still had a passion to serve people. And then, you know, I heard about FRW and got hired, and it was just pretty amazing because even my first week, my first client, I realized that uh I can really make a difference for this person.
SPEAKER_00First Responder Wellness. I'm your host, Chris Logan. I'm also the director of clinical operations here at First Responder Wellness. If you're not familiar with what First Responder Wellness is, it's a treatment center here in Newport Beach dedicated to treating first responders, public service for all of the things that come with being a first responder mental health challenges, post-traumatic stress, addiction, and and all those things. So I'm excited, as typical, uh to have a guest, first and foremost, um, but to really kind of get to know this individual on a different level. Um, he works here for us. And uh, I'm gonna let Fred introduce himself, tell us a little bit about uh kind of who he is, and then we'll get into his story. So, Fred, thank you for being here, and I'm excited to kind of get to learn a little bit more about you.
SPEAKER_01Chris, thanks for the invitation. I really appreciate it. Um yeah, um I'm an associate therapist here. I've been here approximately a year. Uh I am a retired firefighter 35 years in Los Angeles. Uh, prior to that, I was in law enforcement for three years. And I like to tell all my uh my law enforcement friends, then I got in the right line. So uh yeah, um I'm also in recovery. So towards the end of my career, uh I started suffering from PTSD some symptoms, and uh I didn't deal with it well. I didn't ask for help uh and I ended up in recovery. Um and then right around the time I got out of recovery and I retired, I realized that um I really wanted to do something for first responder mental health. And um that kind of coincided with a really good friend of mine who um passed away, took his own life, and then another friend who um died from alcoholism, both colleagues on the job. And that kind of motivated me to okay, what can I do? Is there something that I could do to help other first responders? So I went back to school, got my master's, um did a year internship at uh Camp Pendleton and the substance abuse program there, and then got my degree, came out and kind of looked around, okay, what what's the best fit for me? And I just kind of stumbled onto FRW on uh on a website and then um just asked if I could submit my uh resume. Uh, and then I ended up getting an interview uh and getting hired. So been here a year uh learning um and really uh very happy that I'm able to make a difference in some of the first responders' lives.
SPEAKER_00Nice, nice, and it's a it's been a pleasure to, you know, kind of have you here and and watch you kind of get into your your craft now, right? Right. Uh learning learning the the therapy side. And um, you know, it it's a common theme with people who go through their own addictions and and deal with their own mental health stuff to come out on the other side of it and want to help people, you know. That's how I got into the field myself. So it's a very commendable thing that that you've done here. So I'm and I'm really glad that you made it through and that you're doing what it is that you're doing. Fred, tell us a little bit about Fred growing up. You know, who was Fred and and what was going on prior to becoming a firefighter?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, I grew up in New Jersey, uh kind of a rough rough section. Um my parents, um, I believe they were both alcoholics. Uh so um right around I was 17, uh, I decided that um I wasn't gonna live at home anymore. So I did some couch surfing. I did go to school back there. And then when I turned and turned at about 20 years old, uh I realized that, you know what, you have a choice where you're gonna you're gonna live. So came out to California uh on a vacation and ended up ended up staying. Yeah. So uh yeah, um I uh lived in California for a few years and uh was working a couple of jobs here and there, and I had some really good friends that were in law enforcement, and they said, uh, hey, why don't you take a you know exam for um to be a deputy? And I said, Okay, I'll do that. But meanwhile, I had been going to school uh to get my fire science degree. Yeah, and I got my EMT, and right around then it was really tough to get a job as a firefighter. Um there was a lot of budget crises and it was very very competitive. So and I was taking exams all over and not really being successful. So I thought in my mind that uh hey, you know what? Um I'll do this law enforcement thing because it actually sounds like a great job. And I do want to do some service, uh, but maybe I can parlay this. And that's kind of what I did. So I worked three years in law enforcement mostly in the jail system in LA and uh kept um you know submitting my applications and applying for fire departments, and lo and behold, um they finally called my name. And uh I was very happy. I kind of missed the law enforcement part, but once I got into the uh firefighting part, I realized that was depth was truly going to be my calling. So I felt very blessed to get the position uh in LA.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. What do you recall what drew you to? Because you're talking about, you know, just kind of moving uh out of New York, coming to California, getting into school. At that point when you were in school, kind of taking fire science, did you know that you wanted to go into the fire service? What drew you to wanting to be a first responder to begin with?
SPEAKER_01I had a couple of friends that uh were firefighters. Um, and I had an apartment uh in San Pedro, and right across the street was a house fire. And I saw the whole thing. I saw the the whole you know thing even before the fire department got on scene, and I was so impressed on how the tactics and strategy and how efficient they were and the teamwork, uh, the way they just worked together really well, and you know, they knocked this fire down in a pretty short period of time. And then I just watched them kind of like when the after the fire, like make the camaraderie, uh, and the way they just worked together, and I said, you know what, um, that's what I want to do. And um, yeah, and uh, you know, I I would have been certainly happy in law enforcement. I really liked that job too, but um the firefighting thing really appealed to me, so I kept at it and uh finally got a job.
SPEAKER_00So is young Fred kind of in college at that point, sees a house fire, says, Hey, you know what? There's something about this that's kind of magical. And it is pretty impressive to watch a good team work, you know, whatever it is, law enforcement, fire, whatever it is. But to watch them from start to finish, it I mean, I think for a lot of men, maybe women too, I don't know, but um there's something attractive about watching that, you know, the the confidence that comes from pulling up on scene to a fire where most people would run away and these guys get out and they're charging towards it, and they're, you know, everything's just kind of lining up, they're pulling ho, they're doing everything that they need to do to attack this thing and to sit back and watch that. Uh, it's really impressive, right? And I think at a young age, it sounds like it was very impressionable to you. Like, I'd like to see myself doing something like that. Prior to that, because I know you mentioned being in recovery, so in the high school, college stuff, was drinking prevalent then? Were you a knucklehead kid? And this kind of pulled you in some direction, or were you would you feel like you're on a pretty good path at that point?
SPEAKER_01Uh always social drinking, right? Um, and then when I got to college, um, probably a little more drinking than I probably should have. Um, when I did become a deputy, it was definitely part of the culture. Yeah. It was just like, okay, um, you know, um, after a hard shift, everybody's gonna go to the local bar and everything. And it sounded like I didn't really have a choice. But I enjoyed it, right? So it was social drinking. Uh, I wasn't drinking with a purpose, you know. Um and you know, I was always kind of able to kind of have a handle on it, you know. Um, but that was there was that was different towards the end of my career when uh I was just self-medicating uh with drinking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So early on it didn't seem to present as a problem to you. Well, we understand it becomes progressive over time. So uh wasn't there wasn't anything alarming for you. So you did well, got into being a deputy. What year? Will you remember about what year this was?
SPEAKER_011983.
SPEAKER_0083. So yeah, policing was definitely different uh in the 80s, as was firefighting. Um so you entered into a completely different culture than what we're seeing now, uh, although there's still a lot of that old culture wound up in what's happening uh even today. But that drinking uh back then was almost like automatic. It was funny you said I don't feel like I had a choice. Also wasn't a hostage, right? Like it was a good time, but I don't feel like I had a choice. It was kind of part of the job, right? You know, and so uh getting introduced to that very early on sounds like would set you up later on to kind of put you in this position to have it be progressive and and eventually set up. Absolutely. So you end up switching from law enforcement to fire, right? Talk to us about that first, you know, five, six years of of uh where were you over in LA?
SPEAKER_01LA. Okay, yeah. I was uh very fortunate to have some just great assignments just as a rookie. My first house was Fire Station 9 Skid Row, busiest house in the state, like in the nation, you know, just crazy. Nonstop. Um, just you know, um, not even a lot of opportunity just even to make your bed, so busy. But for me as a young firefighter, it was sets and reps, right? So I was getting some really good experience, especially as being as being an EMT, but also we had some just significant fires, and it was like I was learning on the job. Um, you know, I was just in awe of what you know what we could do as a team, um, just based on our training. And, you know, it was like we went to some just crazy incidents, and it was like, you know, you you're you're kind of like going into this and going, wow, this could have a bad outcome. And I remember going to like really a significant fire, and it was just like I was thinking, man, we can actually die at this. And my my partner, who's actually my senior firefighter, goes, Don't worry, kid, if you die, they name a street after you. And I was going, Okay, that makes sense. What we were going into, and uh, yeah, it just pushed me further. And yeah, so um I kind of was a firefighter for several years, and then I switched from that station to South LA, which was really busy too. Um, ended up working on like an EMT ambulance, and just did, you know, just a lot of runs on that ambulance. Um, and then just it was very busy assignments, fire station 33 in the heart of South LA. A lot of fires. Um, the nickname for that station was Fire City because if you didn't have a fire during this shift, that was very uncommon. So again, I was able to develop myself, get great skills, um, and I was kind of like really enjoying myself. After like five, six years, uh, I felt like I really hit my stride as a firefighter, and I I felt like, man, this is the greatest job in the world, you know. It's just like you know, we the camaraderie, we get to work out on duty, um, you know, any with any luck will go to a fire or a significant incident. And I really loved the teamwork part of it. It was just like serving the community, and um, it was almost like this was Nirvana for me. It was just like it was really a great job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm kind of watching you go through this and look back on those first five, six, seven years, and I can see you kind of going, like, man, that was, you know, it was a height that was kind of drawing you further into what you saw as as kind of this passion for yourself. It's always interesting to hear firefighters, dude. You guys love stuff to burn, man. It's oh, it's like, oh, if if we're you know, if we're lucky, we're gonna go get to the we're gonna get to these fires and then these significant fires, and it's like you guys light up when you talk about things being on fire. So so you're really kind of cutting your teeth here, you're getting some good experience. I have to imagine that there's not a busy fire station in LA. Like I have to imagine LA that's the size of that city, all those fire stations are just non-stop. I mean, you guys gotta be working nonstop.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there are slower, um, slower assignments, but um most of the assignments near downtown, South LA, East LA, um, the valley, um, most of the stations are pretty busy. And a lot of it is because of the EMS component, right? It's 80% of of what we do. Um, and that was taking even more of a more role as you know, as I progressed on the department, um, and it was like stations that didn't have ambulances before. Now they had ambulances, you know. Right. So um, but um, yeah, you're right. There's very few stations that don't have like this that busy component where it's just like you know, the minute you throw your stuff on the rig, um, you're gonna be busy, and you just can't it your day's gonna be unpredictable. And that's what I love too, is it's like one you know, one moment you're going to fire, and next moment you're going to a car accident, right? Yeah. It's just like I remember um somebody told me in the drill tower, this is not all saving cats out of trees. It's just like and I realized like my first shift. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's interesting because you kind of mentioned that statistic of the medical stuff being like 70% of what you guys are doing. And I don't know if a lot of people realize that. You know, that as paramedics, right? Uh, EMTs, paramedics, you guys are doing a lot more medical calls than you are actual fires. Right. Right. So, and I think that's a big percentage of what has this trauma component so big in a lot of people. Because, you know, those things are horrific, man. Everything from these, you know, these big TCs, these traffic collisions, these accidents that you guys are running on to, you know, all kinds of stuff. So, and especially in a city that big, you know, the stabbings, the, I mean, just all of the violence stuff, and you guys are there. Yeah. You know, patching people up and getting them to the ER, you know, and uh it's it was interesting for me. Uh quite a little while back, I did a 24-hour ride along with Long Beach Fire down at Station 10, which was it was really eye-opening to me because I got to experience a lot of that, which there were no fires, and those guys were bummed. They were like, We really wanted you to go on a fire.
SPEAKER_01Because they had a ride all.
SPEAKER_00Well, they were like, dude, dude, yeah, they wanted it, they wanted something to burn. They wanted they were like, yeah, you know. Um, but it was really interesting to me to watch the process of like all of these medical calls, you know, and I think a lot of people don't understand, or we just as as civilians don't comprehend the extent of what you guys are dealing with. One and two, all of the systems in play, right? Because they would go to these medical calls, and a couple of them were pretty serious medical calls. They're just stabilizing these people, keeping them alive, and then it's get them to the ER, right? Get them to whatever hospital they have to get them to, roll them through to the doctor, shout out whatever's going on, give them the reports, get them off the gurney, and then it's on to the ER docs and nurses, right? Right. And now it's their problem. Right. And then you you wheel this gurney out to a line of ambulances that's out there ready to unload more patients to this hospital. Right. They clean up this gurney, right? Do whatever little reports, I shouldn't say little reports because there's a lot that goes into that, but do whatever reports that they need to, clean that rig up, head back to the station, restock, wait for the next call, and then it's on again. And and we ran 20 calls that night, you know, from start to finish. And it it was just, to your point, it was very impressive to watch them work, yeah, to watch what you guys are doing in the back of an ambulance when you know somebody's unresponsive. And just, you know, everybody, it was, it was, it was like watching a dance, you know, like everybody knew without having to tell somebody where to be, what to do, right? Everybody knew. And I was just I'm sitting back in that little chair behind the thing and I'm like, who's orchestrating this? Because nobody's, you know, the movies are, yeah, grab me this and do this and do that. There was none of that. Right. It was very, very calm, very succinct, very in order. You know, I mean, yeah, there was some stuff flying around, but for the most part, you know, it was slow, it was fast. They knew exactly what to get, where to get it, right, what to do. And so it was really, really impressive to watch that. And again, I just bring that up because you you know, like you said, it's like 70% of what you guys are doing, right, isn't the this thing's on fire. It's you know, this guy's having a heart attack, or this guy's you know, break legs broken or whatever, car accidents, I mean, just all the horrific stuff. Right. So you're doing all this stuff, working in all this. I mean, it I mean, you are in two really busy stations. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you know, it's it's you'd like to say we're doing this really heroic stuff all day, like going to fires and car acts and stuff like that. But really, you are doing heroic stuff when you're doing like the EMS stuff, because if you have a critical patient, yeah, right, um, it's all hands on deck. And like you said, um, everybody has a role. Yeah, everybody has a role, and it just works, you know, very organized. Everybody knows what to do. Uh, and it's like when you're at a busy station and you're doing that EMS stuff, like stuff all the time, man, it's amazing how good everybody gets.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's like I always thought that, like when I was at Fire Station 33, if I ever get shot, I hope it's in this district because we do gun jobs really well.
SPEAKER_00We're dealing with them a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, and it's just like it's amazing that, you know, you have somebody who's critically injured, and by the time they get to the hospital, they're actually doing pretty well. They're fairly stable, yeah. Yeah, and it's because of the actions, um, you know, the way that the paramedics and the firefighters work together to get this person stabilized and and get them on the way to the ER. It's amazing, it really is.
SPEAKER_00It is, it is, and it's very, very impressive, you know, for somebody who has you know no experience in doing any of that to sit back and watch that. It w it really was. And it opened my eyes to a lot of things, right? And I think the biggest thing that it opened my eyes to is that this life-saving stuff comes at a cost. Yeah, it comes at a cost, you know. And you know, you I mean, you obviously you know that because you're gonna tell us a little bit more about that as we get into this, but I I would watch these guys and you could just feel it. You could feel it, you know. Um, unfortunately, you know, a couple of patients did not make it, but and you could feel it. You could feel it that you know they were questioning if they made the right calls, did they do the right thing, even though they weren't saying anything, you could tell. Right. Um, and then there were those ones that they didn't think were gonna make it, you know, and and they brought them back, and it was like, dude, this is pretty cool. So but you could tell that it has a toll on on you guys, you know. So you're doing this stuff, you're working in there five, six years, things seem to be going pretty good, you're having having a good time, it sounds like you're really getting some your skill set in, right? Talk to us a little about a little bit further on what was happening.
SPEAKER_01Um I because I had a good pos um good assignments, uh, and I really became a good firefighter. I started to take advantage of that and uh, you know, start to promote, go through, you know. Um just making career decisions. So being leadership, which I really liked to do. And so I made captain. And then I made truck captain. And then after that, I made battalion chief. And I kept going through the ranks, you know, and and um it it was good for me because I really like to be in the leadership positions and hopefully make a difference. Um and then also kind of being in charge of a team, you know, I haven't had that leadership component. I really enjoyed that part. So um, but you know, you hit on something, and I just wanted to to kind of hit on that is that, you know, when you're having these calls and say you have a call that doesn't go so good, say it's an EMS run or you have a house fire where people get hurt or killed or stuff like that. Those calls, even though you don't appreciate it, they kind of add up, right? And I never really understood like the impact of that stuff was gonna have my own career. In fact, I was always the person that thought, wow, um, that doesn't even really bother me, right? It's just like I really put that memory of that really bad call someplace in my head, you know, like in a box and close the lid. And then you have to do that, you have to do that emotional suppression because if you're upset about this last call, you know, we maybe somebody didn't make it, you're not prepared to go on the next call. So, you know, we did that, and I did that, and it was just like as I progressed through my career, and I just saw more and more things that um, you know, initially bothered me. It was just like after a while, it's just and I actually thought, like, I wonder one day one day is all this stuff gonna add up for me. And I was always a stoic one, right? Well, even as a captain, and we'd go to a gnarly call, and you know, we we'd come back to the station and I would talk to my firefighters and say, Hey, uh, anybody want to talk about that call? You know, it's just like that was kind of a kind of a bad one. And I was hoping that when nobody would raise their hand because I was feeling that way.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, and I didn't want to put myself in a position of leadership and looking weak, right? Yeah, so I was actually a bad leader when I came in. In fact, you know, we would have some really bad calls, like where a critical incident, stress debriefing team had to come out. And I was like the worst leader. It was like, really? You know, this is what we do. Yeah, you know, what do we expect when we came on? And I was the one that was pouting, and I really wasn't setting a good example for the firefighters that I led. So you can imagine when the team came out and they started to talk to us, we were all like, hey, can we get this over with? Right. We want to go back, you know, in service. Um, and I looked back on that and I was just, man, that was terrible decision making on myself. Especially because I was starting to think, okay, one day this is all gonna add up and this is gonna have an impact. I could almost feel it. And, you know, that came to fruition for me. And it wasn't just like one sentinel call where we went on something that was really bad. It was just like adding these up and adding these up. And it's like the hundreds of traumas that I went on that uh I remember thinking, this is pretty bad. Um, but I got to get over it because we're gonna go into the next call.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So not having time to process it, not really taking advantage of you know, the opportunity to brief just among ourselves, right? Not really embracing the the part, the mental health part. Because when I came on, it was just you didn't even talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I remember when we went to a call and I was a rookie, and it was somebody that got run over by a train, you know, and it was meant you can imagine what that looks like. Right. Um, and we were helping the coroner kind of just can you know put the scene back together. Um and then we go back to the station and um the captain did the same thing. Uh yeah, it was kind of a bad call. Um I'm thinking, I raise a man for sure. Right. And he goes, Okay, we're good? Okay, let's go play volleyball. And I was thinking, that's it. Yeah. That's what we do. We just move on to the next thing. And we put whatever memories we have, yep, you know, of that someplace in our heads, and then just hoping that that box doesn't someday spring open with all those traumas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think too, in hearing you say, Oh, you know, I was such a bad leader. And I and this, I I don't necessarily agree with that. I think you did exactly what you were taught. I don't think you knew any better at the time. Yeah. I think you have this this in retrospect, you're looking back now from who you are today and kind of what you've gone through and said, Yeah, I wish I would have done something different, sure. But at that time, you know, I've had the opportunity to interview quite a few people and uh some in and around our age, you know, and they're talking about coming up in that, in that, in that time and who was bringing them up, right? Right. And a lot of those guys were old school Vietnam veterans that had gone into firefighting, and those guys were no bullshit guys. Right. They weren't talking about, hey, that was horrible. They were like, anybody got anything to fucking say? Good. Let's go play volleyball, right? Like you, you don't have the opportunity to sit back and uh and talk about kind of man, that was screwed up. That was, you know, to your point, that was the culture. Anybody got anything to say? All right, good. Let's on to the next one, right? And then it's when they do send somebody out to talk to you guys, that's the normal reaction. Ah man, we don't have time for this BS. Right. This is what we signed up for, right? Like all of that stuff. The culture just really kind of pushed you guys into that. And the other thing that you brought up, which is it's this, it's this tool that you're using, right? Right to get you through to the next call. Right. It's this meladaptive coping mechanism that says, I can't sit here and dwell on this. I've got to do the next one. Right. Compartmentalizing, detaching, right? Whether you know it at the time or not, right? It's just what you're doing, right? And it's interesting because you have this foresight that says, at some point, uh, I can almost tell that this is gonna come back to bite me in the ass at some point. Like somewhere, all of this stuff that I keep putting back, it's gonna come out. Right. It's gonna come out. And and the other piece, too, that that's just like it's it's I say it's interesting, it's not interesting, it's sad, is that you're sitting next to a guy who's sitting next to a guy, and you guys all feel the same way. Exactly. You guys all feel the same way, and you're looking at each other like, you good? Yeah, we're good. Nothing to say, and everybody's just struggling inside like that. Right? And no, nobody's talking about not sleeping, nobody's talking about not being able to, you know, eat, nobody's talking about how they're acting out at you know, after work. Throw back a few beers, shifts over, see you guys when we get back. You know, business as usual, yep. And just move forward. And so you know, I think in and I think the statistic is like in a career anywhere between like eight to nine hundred, right? I think that's the uh critical incidence that you guys will you guys will go on. Right. And I think for a normal person it's like two to three that you might see in a lifetime, right? Where you guys run anywhere between eight and nine hundred, and and maybe somebody out there will correct that statistic, but I I if I remember correctly, that's kind of what it is that you'll go on. And maybe Billy can correct that and put that up there in some because I don't want to give false information, but I know it's a lot, yeah. You know, and to your point, like you were in this thing for you know 20 plus years, almost 30 years. 35 years. 35 years you were there. So there's no telling how many. I mean, you've forgotten more than most people will see. Yes. Literally, even through all it is. So as this is kind of coming up and you're you're you're moving up in the ranks, you've decided, like, hey, you know, I want to become captain and do all that. When for you do you start to realize, or when do you start struggling and try and try to manage things, you know, with the alcohol? When do you notice that that's starting to become a problem?
SPEAKER_01It became a problem um towards the ending my career, the very end. And I don't know why it was the very end. And I don't know if like um all those memories that became suppressed started coming out. Uh, I don't know if like you get towards the end of your career and you start to get reflective and you think back, okay, these all things have been on. Um, I'm not sure. All I know is that it just it kind of just exploded. And it was just like it wasn't a sentinel event. It was like it was actually a benign event that I thought about that just kind of opened the door for all these others, and then it became just like these recurring thoughts, flashbacks, yeah, uh you know, sleep disturbances, night terrors, right? And I'm walking around and I look fine on the outside, and I'm just crumbling on the inside. And it's just like my stoic nature allowed me just to hold that in. But meanwhile, like every day off, I'm just I'm hitting the bottle harder. And it's like um, you know, even when I was drinking like that, it was just I didn't really understand why I was drinking, but I remember thinking about you know the incidents that I that I went on, and I was going, Well, I can't have PTSD, that's not me. Because that's weak, right? And then if I do admit that I have PTSD, what about the stigma, right? I'm gonna go get help, right? Like see a therapist. Shh, no, not me. You know, a badass firefighter from LA. That doesn't happen to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're a battalion chief at this point, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm an assistant chief, actually. And then I'm thinking, you know what? Um, no, I can't do this. I'm just I'm gonna struggle along and I'm gonna hope it gets better, right? And it's just like it's like a slow-moving train wreck, you know, and it's just gets worse and gets worse. And I don't have the courage to uh raise my hand and say I need help. And I just I keep going to like until I get the crisis level, you know, and then finally, um, you know, my family, um, close friends, some colleagues at work say, uh, yeah, you need to kind of just address this and fix it. And um the toughest phone call I ever made. You know, but for me it was just like admitting defeat. It was admitting that I am weak. It is me it is me it it it was admitting that um, you know, I'm not this stoic guy. I'm actually I'm pretty vulnerable, you know. And going to treatment um was the best thing I ever did. Yeah, it was. Um just holding these feelings in for years after years after years, it was it it just it caused me just to kind of struggle emotionally and got to the point where um I was gonna make a big bad decision super sooner or later, right? And um yeah, and I I I realized that with once I got um you know, with a therapist and treatment and I got the diagnosis that I had did have PTSD, it was kind of two different feelings. First of all, I was relieved. Right. I know why I'm drinking, right? It's the pain that I'm trying to relieve. And then the other part, I was like devastated. You mean I have PTSD? And I remember talking to my therapist. I go, I mean, can I be fixed? You know, I remember having tears in my eyes actually, going, can it be fixed? You know, can I be better? You know, and I just that kind of admitting that I had PTSD, although I probably realized it all along, sure, but I didn't want to admit it, um it kind of set me up for success in treatment. And it it it took me a couple of times, you know. Um, but you know, finally when I was I was serious about getting sober and understanding that I did have um these conditions that was causing me to kind of dull the pain with drinking, um, it pushed me in the right direction and it really helped me kind of embrace treatment, uh, understand why I was getting to these emotional dregulation parts. Um and then kind of onboarding what they were asking me to do, you know, the the breathing exercises and the grounding and the breath works and all that stuff, all that stuff that I never thought I would ever, you know, use to help myself. And it was kind of like the same thing as having the courage to do that where before I didn't want to for so many reasons, and a lot of it was just stigma, right? Yeah, and you know, and that's that's the problem with so many people and the first responder world, they you know, they know that they're having a problem with this, but they don't want to raise their hand. Yeah, they want to raise their hand because people are gonna feel they're weak, they're gonna be treated different, they don't know if this is gonna work, what's it gonna look like when I get out? Am I gonna have a job, right? Am I gonna be on light duty for the rest of my career? You know, and it's all the things that when I get a client, uh it's one, it's one of the things that I help them address, like, you know, the first week that they're they're with us and just kind of go, okay, let's get the worry and the shame and the guilt all out of all out of your system right now, so we can start to learn and develop and grow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And how much more difficult do you think it was for you being in the position that you were in, you know, having made it so high up in the ranks, how much more difficult do you think it was at that point to realize that you actually needed needed that help and just couldn't ask for it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's huge. It was huge. And ironically, my last position as a deputy chief, um, I was in charge of the mental health unit. Wellness. Yeah, right. And I was, you know, uh I hired our first fire psychologist, um set up the department with the first therapy dog. And it was just, I was doing all this stuff, right? And then realizing that, you know, I should take advantage of this stuff. But you know what? I'm the leader. Yeah, I can't raise my hand. I can't tell everybody that I'm struggling inside. That's a bad look, right? Um, so I just wore it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm just setting this up for all the guys that need it. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01I don't really know. Can't be for me.
SPEAKER_00I don't really need it. Yeah, and that's difficult, you know, and and and and kind of watching and listening as you're kind of looking back at some of this and um, you know, realizing that you're struggling, you know. How long do you think you were managing this stuff on your own? How much time had gone by, do you think?
SPEAKER_01Um in the beginning of my symptoms, I think it was like probably five years from retirement, and then it was the last two years that I was kind of really struggling. And just you know, the night terrors and the flashbacks and the recurring thoughts, and it was you know, I was like I was seeing faces of people that committed suicide, and it was just like and I couldn't get that stuff out of my head.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh it was a lot easier for me to go to the bottle, something that's legal, omnipresent, right? Um and then just kind of manage my own feelings that way. Um and um you know, it got to the point where um I knew that my drinking was getting too heavy, but it was just like I almost couldn't stop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, at some point you can't.
SPEAKER_01You can't, and it's and it was just like okay. Um and I just I did that until I was sick of tired of being sick of tired. And you know, for me to actually admit that I had this problem um was epic for me. It was you know, and then once I made the call, um it was just like release. It was like, okay, I'm tired of playing this stupid, you know, game that I I'm okay, I'm tired of just letting everybody down, I'm tired of just um the lies and the deceit. Yeah, right. That's a big one. Um and get to the point where it's just like, okay, um I gotta I I have to like I really have to get to the point where I'm super vulnerable and accept treatment. And it was tough, it was tough for me. Yeah. It really was. I mean, my first treatment, I'm ever just like resisting everything. Sure. And I was one of these people, and it's kind of like we see here at FRW. Not everybody comes here with you know success on their mind. Um, my first treatment was kind of a mandate. Um, my wife told me she was gonna divorce me. Uh all my friends had kind of turned their back on me. My kids looked like at me like I was from Mars. I went from this super motivated, disciplined person to like just um a shell of the person that I used to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um, yeah, I was a box checker. I was gonna go to treatment because everybody told me I needed to go. I mean, I can stop drinking anytime I want, you know. But maybe I'll go to treatment and learn something, right?
SPEAKER_00You know, well, at a minimum, I'll get these people off my back.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. I want to get the world off my back, right? Yeah. So I go to my first treatment and and I kind of do that. I just uh I'm listening, but I'm not listening. Uh I'm thinking, okay, I got the calendar circled when I'm gonna discharge and I'm gonna go back to work this day, and everything's gonna be good, right? And then I remember just my wife picking me up, driving me away from my first treatment. I think, I haven't landed, I haven't learned a damn thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Was it like 30 days?
SPEAKER_0130 days. Yeah, a little 30-day check-in. Yep. I I I was thinking, I haven't learned one thing that's gonna help me from relapsing. Yeah. So I held on and I held on for, I don't know, six months and really white knuckled a lot of that. Yeah. And then relapsed, and it was just like, okay, you know. Second hardest phone call I ever made. Yeah. Yeah. Doing it again. Do it again.
SPEAKER_00And if you haven't experienced it, I think it's difficult for people to understand what that relapse does. Oh my gosh. Because, you know, there's this idea that I'm not as powerless as everybody is making me out to be, that I do have some choice in what I'm doing here, and treatment is just to appease everybody. I really don't need it. I can stop whenever I want. Sure, I'll go. And then you buy into this fact at some point, like, okay, cool, I'm gonna quit drinking. Like, treatment, to your point, like, did I really learn anything? Probably not. You know, it was a break from work, it was a break from the family. I went through whatever I went through, scheduled back on to work, and here we go. And for six months, you have this idea that you don't drink or you're not gonna drink, and then you drink, and it's I mean, I don't know what it was like for you, but I know for me that initial relapse after a period of sobriety just shook me to my core because it proved what everyone had been telling me this entire time was you have no control over this. What am I talking about? Of course I have control over it, and then you're drinking or you're using and you're like, I don't have any control over this. My wife, my life is truly unmanageable. And now, and now the hiding, the lying, the deceit goes really deep. Yep. Yeah, and the shame sets in. So that's that's a dangerous place to be in sometimes too. And at that point, you had no work on your trauma, so you're still dealing with the trauma. Right. You're just unable to drink for a period of time now, so it has to be even more difficult. Yeah. And I was gonna ask, like, hey, what's going on, you know, in and around the family, but you know, you kind of painted the picture, everybody's looking at you like, who are you? What are you doing? The wife is like, I'm not putting up with this. No, this isn't you, this isn't what I married. What's going on here? Get help or else. Yeah, right. So you have the relapse, right? And I think the other thing that's important too is that at this point in time, there's no first responder wellness, there's no first responder treatment center, there's no treatment center, it's dedicated to first responders. Uh, so you're in a general population treatment center somewhere. Yes. Yeah. Just hanging out with everybody and their brother. So it's like, you know, I can't Becky from Target and you know, the kid whose parents sent him to rehab. Like, I can't relate to these people. I'm I got ghosts keeping me up at night. I have night terrors. I got, you know, you know, I'm I'm an assistant chief. You know, LA Fire. I like I I'm kind of a big deal. Yeah. I don't I don't know how I can relate to any of these people, you know. So that makes it even more difficult. I'm sure you're not talking about who you are, what you're doing, what's really got you where there. Right. Right? This is just uh my wife's gonna divorce me, so I'm here in treatment. You know, I'm Fred, I'm a firefighter. Maybe, maybe, maybe not, I don't know. Yeah, so that's a huge piece that's just you know, there's no real help for you at that point. So you relapse and you go back to treatment. Do you go back to the same place?
SPEAKER_01No, I go to a different place. Okay, yeah. And um at that point I was pretty desperate, and I I knew that I needed help, and I just told myself, um, I'll do anything to stay sober. And then I got a great therapist who just kind of worked with me through my trauma, um and just kind of did a lot of that, and just every time that I talked to him and bought up another incident that I've been living with for like forever, um he helped me just like process that and it was just like it was such a relief. And you know, you you're right, I'm in gen pop. There I don't I don't I don't have anything in common with anybody, right? And it's just like but I told myself you know, I'm gonna make the best of it, and it that treatment isn't not supposed to be fun, right? So I just uh I got over that, I got serious, I guess I dived into the AA stuff, um, got really serious about that, um, and just kind of worked every day to get better. And um yeah, that therapist, man, he just yeah, just helped me so much. And it was just like working through the shame and guilt, understanding that um it's not all my fault, right? Understanding that you're not the only one.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I was convinced that I was the only one on a 3,500 member department that had PTSD. It was just like it's just me, yeah. Yeah, everybody else is fine. Because I didn't know anybody else that that came out and said, Yeah, I got PTSD, I need to go to treatment. It was just like everybody was kind of like doing on the sly. Yeah. They were doing it at all. They did it at all. Right. And it was just like, okay. Um, so uh I worked really hard, worked really hard, and then when I was done, uh my wife convinced me to go to sober living. So I did that. Um, and then I just kind of reinforced all the things that I'd been learning, going going to ILP classes. And I got to the point where um when I left treatment, uh I felt really good about myself. Yeah. I felt that okay, I actually was listening, I was actually taking notes, I was actually onboarding things that are gonna help me when I get outside the bubble of treatment. Right. Um and you know, it uh I had my I had my moments, but I went to AA meetings, I got a really good sponsor who was actually first responder um and really bonded with him and then stayed the course. And it was just like, okay, yeah, I think I'm good, but I'm still living day to day, you know. It's just I know that um sobriety is is you know, it's fragile, right? And if you don't do the work every day, right, um, you can end up in a place where I didn't want to go back to. So um it was tough, it was really tough. Um I think the biggest part for me is that I had to understand that I'm vulnerable and I'm not this just this firefighter who's job proof. Three decades, right? You know, and it's just like I had to get to the point, okay, yeah, you know what? Um I'm in gen pop and I am just like that guy right now.
SPEAKER_00And that and that's the thing that I was gonna bring up, and and that to me, I'm listening and I'm and I'm watching, and it's like that second relapse scared the shit out of you, and it brought you some humility. Yeah, right. I think for somebody who's had this big career and worked their way up in this really busy fire department in a really busy city, uh, you know, you kind of step back and you're like, listen, I'm I'm the shit. You know, I'm I'm that guy, you know, I'm a hero and all of these things. And yes, on some level, you're a very skilled firefighter and you've worked your way up. But that arrogance and that stigma combined just kept you suffering. It kept you suffering, it kept you suffering, and it put you in treatment for the first 30 days, and you thought, I don't, I'll be fine. I can, you know, I've figured all of this out up until this point. Right. Fred's got this. I don't, you know. And then alcohol came in and said, not today, not today. I got something for you. And it does, it it it brings us to our knees into a position of like really understanding how fragile we are, how vulnerable we are, and it brings this side of humility to where now I can look and I can go, no, I'm no different than this woman who's dealing with drug abuse or that kid who's dealing with alcoholism. I just have a different career than them. And that humility brought you into really accepting this gift of treatment, regardless of where you're at, stepping into sober living, right? I mean, again, here's a man who's worked his way up in his life, has nice accommodations. I have to imagine you have a beautiful family, a nice home, and you're in a sober living with a bunch of knuckleheads, you know, I was in sober scrubbing toilets, scrubbing toilets, yeah. You know, but it it brings you this sense of humility that says, listen, I have some choices in my life, and if sobriety isn't that number one choice, there's a whole different road cut out for me, for sure. You know, and then you add in the complex trauma that you're dealing with, and so you start to get into doing that and healing some of that. You're using uh Alcoholics Anonymous, which is a tremendous program for people who suffer with alcoholism. You're using that to to you know uh secure your sobriety, build a life, get some principles to live by, bonding with some people, you know, and working on the trauma, and and sounds like things are getting better for you. Yeah, yeah. And what was life looking like, you know, a little bit a little bit after that? Did you retire finally?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did retire. Um and um just you know, but about maybe one year sober, uh, and I realized that number one, I still had a passion to serve people, uh, so I was looking for an avenue over that. Number two, I'm an alcoholic. I can't wake up every morning and have nothing to do. I need a mission, right? Yeah. So that's when I kind of decided, okay, um, I'm gonna look for programs that are gonna allow me to um maybe use some of my experience, right, uh, to help others. And initially I thought maybe I'll just be like a substance abuse counselor or something like that. Um, and right around then a friend of mine called me and he'd went through uh this program at USC to be a social worker, and then he ended up being, you know, um an LCSW in the field uh and then helping uh individuals. I think he was working working uh um in the VA and just enjoying it. And I thought that's it. That's what I need to do. I need to go back, get my degree, position myself so uh I can be, you know, of service to people, hopefully, first responders. And it was ironic. So my son went to USC and it was just right right after we cut the last check, you know, for his education. He was done, he was a senior. And I told my wife, hey honey, get the checkbook out. I'm gonna go back to school and I'm actually gonna go back to USC, you know, and she looked at me and she said, Really? And I said, Really? This is what I want to do. She goes, Okay. And she's a saint, and it it was like one of the best decisions I ever made. And you know, and I'm going through school, and it's kind of tough for me because I really I haven't gone to school in a while. And I was just thinking, okay, the payoff is gonna be it's gonna be great. I'm gonna position myself and I'm gonna be able to help people. And you know, and maybe help somebody that doesn't get to the point that I did is just suffer all these years and kind of um steer them in the right direction, right? And um, yeah, and I just got out, I did my internship, and then you know, I heard about FRW and got hired, and it was just it's pretty amazing because even my first week, my first client, I realized that uh I can really make a difference for this person. Yep. Yep. If it's just, you know, um helping them just deal with the issues and the occupational trauma and the things in their life and hopefully the light bulb goes on for them, and that's the payoff right there. It's just you know, it's funny because colleagues from work would call me and say, Hey, we're gonna go golf or we're gonna go sailing and all this stuff. And I said, No, I'm I got homework. I got homework, or I got this job where, you know, um, I'm gonna go and be a therapist. And they go, Really? You know, I go, yeah, really. And it's just like, I'll tell you, whatever you're doing, it's not gonna be as as just rewarding as what I'm doing. And um, yeah, and it's just it's great, it's been great. And I, you know, I love uh just the fact that I can position myself for first responders, allow them to maybe um make themselves better from the experience that I've had, not only but by being a first responder, but somebody who's been in recovery.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and I don't start with that, um, but if there's somebody that's on the fence, you know, maybe they're not uh involved in the program as they should be. Um I just tell them my story and I tell them, you know what, here's the payoff if you work hard. Right. Right. Here's the payoff if you just sit there and you don't do anything and you think you're gonna be okay and you're just gonna stay here for 45 days or whatever, yeah. And then you're gonna check the box and you're gonna go out in the world and everything's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because it's not.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01You have to do the work. Yep. You have to do the work.
SPEAKER_00It's it's really difficult, I think, to get people to understand that you don't end up here because everything's okay, right? Like you don't end up here because you can manage it yourself. Yeah, and that's that guy that just wants to sit here and check off the boxes and be like, yeah, that's fine. I'll I'll I'll take care of it when I get out of here. It's like, no, brother, if you could have taken care of it, you would have taken care of it. You would have never ended up here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, nobody nobody comes here on a winning streak. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00Yep, nobody comes here on a winning streak. And you know, and it's it's it's interesting, you know, to sit and listen and watch kind of where you're at now and and and and look at how rewarding it is for you to have taken all the suffering and all the stuff that you dealt with and come through on the other side to realize like I'm a person who still loves being of service, and I want to give back to this community that you know you you gave so much to to begin with. And so now you're on the other side of it, being able to, you know, bridge that gap with these guys. And I think it says a lot, and it certainly says a lot for somebody who is 35 years, you know, in in the fire service that can sit back and say, No, I I get it. I've been where you're I'm not I'm not just a guy who went to school and got a clipboard, right? You know because that's what everybody thinks about a therapist. They just sit there and you're like, No, I've done it all. I've done it all. I worked my way up, I've seen all the stuff, I've dealt with all the stuff, and then I didn't deal well with my trauma, ended up with alcoholism, you know, uh on the on the fence of divorce, I mean, everything. You were at the brink of losing it all, and you know, we're we're one of those people that was fortunate enough to take the opportunity to get into recovery and then to do that, you know, do that and and come out on the other side of it. Yeah, a lot of people don't understand. Most of us don't make it through that. No, and when it comes to people making it through addiction, and then you add the first responder component on top of that, the odds are even greater that you won't make it through.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, but here you are, you know, you you you push through and now you're on the other side of that, and you're still in a position to be able to help people.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, and I gotta tell you, it's it's been great for my recovery and healing, helping another individual, and then just kind of seeing them see the light. And then as they progress through the program, they get stronger and they get stronger. And whether they're here for primary mental health or they're here for substances, it's just it's great. It's such a great feeling to see them get their self-esteem back. Yeah, right, and reduce their anxiety, yeah, and maybe their depression lowers, and they're dealing with their PTSD symptoms where they never did before. You know, and a lot of times, my clients, it's not just the job, it's how they grew up. Yep. You know, it maybe it's some things that happened in their childhood, yeah, and maybe there's something going on in their personal life, and then all these things add up, and you add PTSD, uh, and it's just this recipe for disaster. And it's just, you're right. I I see a client for the first time, you know, that first week, and I just look at them and I go, I've been there. I just I know exactly what that feels like, you know, and it's just I see it on their face. And I just tell them, you know what? If you work this program and you're serious about it, you're gonna walk away with skills and resources and your self-esteem back, and there's no reason why you can't get back to the original person that you wanted to be before your addiction or your mental health just got over overwhelming, you know? Yeah. So it's been a it's been a great ride so far. It's uh I really enjoy it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we're just getting started. We're just getting started. You're only a year in.
SPEAKER_01I know, and you're still a rookie. But it feels great. It feels great, though.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're doing a tremendous amount of work, man. And the impact that you have on these men and women is it's it's tremendous, it's incredible, and it's it's such an honorable thing. And I'm so grateful that you're here and that you know you have this um this talent and that you're you're really kind of cutting your teeth here and you're you're gaining a really good skill set. And you know, I love it's not a necessity, but I love when somebody comes with that background, and especially when it comes to the addiction piece, because I think it takes a certain person to be able to see where somebody's at in that process and go, hey, here's what's happening, right? And here's what I see. And they kind of sit back and like, how did you know that? And it's like, because I've been right there. It's it's interesting because it's almost like talking to a kid, you know, because you're 10 steps ahead and you can see, like, hey man, this is where this is gonna end up, you know, and it being able to kind of help them navigate that and really organize their lives again, yeah, right. And that when they show up to that two, three-week mark in and the light turns on, it's just like here we go. It's pretty amazing. Here we go, man. Welcome back. You know, glad that you're coming out on the other side of this. So it's been a tremendous uh opportunity to get to know you. It's it's been an honor and a privilege, Fred. I appreciate you taking the time. If there was anything that you could say to anybody out there who might be dealing with some of these things that we've talked about, what would you say to them?
SPEAKER_01I would say that you look back on your career as a first responder and you've probably done some really courageous things, right? And you're very proud of that. But if you're struggling and it's not getting any better for you, and you know you're going down a path, do the most courageous thing that you've ever done. Raise your hand and ask for help. You know it's gonna be tough. But that decision, just to ask for help, that's like the biggest hurdle. Once you get here, once you get into treatment, um you know, it's I'm not gonna say it's easy, but it it's not gonna be as hard as making the decision to come. And you deserve that, you know. Also first first responders work really hard, shift work, you know, occupational trauma. It's just like, why would you want to live through that and not get help that you deserve?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. There it is. And you heard it, ladies and gentlemen. Fred, it's been an honor and a privilege. I appreciate it. And that uh will wrap it up. So, ladies and gentlemen, don't let the stigma keep you sick and stay resilient.
SPEAKER_02Thanks so much, Chris.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much.