Former Police Chief: Wellness Can’t Be Optional Anymore

In this episode of The First Responder Wellness Podcast, Chris Logan sits down with Chris Catren, former Chief of Police and Director of Strategic Relationships at First Responder Wellness.

After nearly 30 years in law enforcement, Chris Catren had seen the job from every angle: officer, detective, supervisor, chief, and department leader. But when he first toured First Responder Wellness, he admits he came in skeptical.

He had a hard time believing that first responders were really opening up, sharing honestly, and getting the help they needed. Then he saw it for himself.

In this conversation, Chris shares his path into law enforcement, the lessons he learned as a leader, how his view of wellness and peer support changed, and why departments can no longer treat mental health as an “extra”.

This episode is a powerful reminder that wellness is not just a policy, a poster, or a box to check. It is people helping people survive a very difficult career.

For confidential support, or simply to learn more with no commitment, contact us:
https://frhealth.com/
888-443-4898

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I heard there's a bunch of cops and firefighters down here sharing their feelings and all this stuff. Show me. Yeah. The BS meters going brrrrrrr. I've been a cop for almost 30 years. I've been a chief for five and a half. I've been president and on the board for Cal Chiefs, and I've never never heard of you guys. Yeah. How is and I'm 60 miles down the road. So believing that they're down there sharing their feelings to me was like, there is no way. I've worked with hundreds of cops throughout my career. There's no way it's happening until you go down there and you see it. Everybody told me this place saved my life, saved my career, saved my marriage, saved my relationship with my kids, or any combination or all those things. And I'm nobody to these folks, right? They don't have any reason to tell me this stuff, so it's legit. And it completely changed my outlook. It's not a policy, it's not something written on the wall, it's not the cat poster that says hang in there. It's legitimate. It is people helping people survive a very difficult career. I only wish I knew all this when I was still working as a chief. Would I have done things differently? Absolutely. I think we did things well. We could have done so much better.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

I'm also the director of clinical operations here at First Responder Wellness. If you are not familiar with what First Responder Wellness is, we're a treatment organization based out of Newport dedicated to treating first responders for addiction, post-traumatic stress, and all of the things that come with being a first responder. So today's episode is going to be with a great guest of ours. Um, and I will let Chris introduce himself and tell us a little bit about who he is, uh, and then we'll get into some questions about who he is, how he got started, and uh what it is that he's doing today. So, Chris, I appreciate you taking some time and being here with us today.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

So want to tell us who you are.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

All right. Sounds good, Chris. Thanks. So um also Chris, yeah, Chris Catron, and uh, I came here after a long career in policing. So uh I started in the Reddit's police department here in Southern California back in 1994 as a crime analyst. Um and I never had any intention of becoming a cop, but uh just kind of fell into it, which is nice. A lot of things have fallen in my lap and um I came into policing, uh, not from a family background. So I had a lot of family who were justice involved, but on the other side of the bars. Um a family history of a lot of addiction that led to some real significant problems with uh the law. Um a lot of my uncles and aunts uh in and out of jail for their whole lives with you know some a lot of drug charges, a lot of other significant charges. And so that's kind of um the environment that I grew up in. You know, my parents divorced when I was four, and so you know, that kind of had an impact on my life, obviously, kind of changed everything. And it was interesting because as a kid growing up, where I grew up, um, that was very unusual. So I was the only kid in my entire friend group who had divorced parents. So, you know, you always felt a bit a bit of an outsider, right? Yeah um growing up because you see all these nuclear families and everything seems perfect. And I'm sure, you know, of course, knowing what I know now, I'm sure it wasn't, um, but uh it sure seemed that way to me. So kind of a different uh different upbringing, but uh very prototypical. You know, I just grew up here in Southern California and played a lot of baseball, went to school a lot, and uh did all that fun stuff, and uh yeah, it was it was all good. And you know, then I uh you know I had some minor jobs before getting into this line of work, of course. So um I was talking to somebody earlier and just telling them, hey, you know, when I was a kid, you know, there wasn't money in my family, right? So um, you know, if I wanted cool shoes, you know, vans, right? In Southern California, right? You gotta have vans. You gotta have vans. Gotta have vans, right? So um, you know, I was the kid, a 10-year-old kid rolling around with the lawnmower tied to the back of his bike. Yep. Um, driving to a mobile home park to mow a bunch of lawns to get money to buy shoes and stuff like that. Um, so just you know, learning that kind of work ethic from a young age, you know, that you want something, go get it. Um, which was good. You know, I think that was uh a really good thing to have growing up. And then, you know, got jobs, you know, fast food like everybody just about back in those days. Um very, very common. And then uh decided, you know, later on, worked for a sporting goods company, had a good time there, and uh, you know, that led to management roles at very early ages, um, yeah, which was kind of interesting because you get to learn a lot of leadership lessons um just that you don't really understand that you're getting at the time, but were important to me. So um, when I was 17, I was working for it was called SportMart, so they later got bought and sold, and now there's virtually no sporting goods stores. But yeah, for anybody out there, it's like a dick's sporting goods back in the day. Sport chalet, yeah, big five. Exactly, yeah. All the ones that are you know mostly gone now. But I worked for one of those and I was 17 years old, and the manager made me um the manager, the store manager made them made me the manager of the cash department, which was you know all the registers and all that kind of stuff. So at 17, I'm in charge of you know, on a good weekend, we're pulling in $300,000, and about a third of that is cash. And so um he got a call from corporate, and corporate said, Hey, you cannot have a 17-year-old cash manager. 16-year-old exactly like get him out of there. Because they they told him, Hey, if this guy steals from us, we can't even prosecute him. He's a juvenile, and uh, so it was kind of interesting because I happened to be present for this speaker phone call back in the day, and uh You're like, I never even thought about that. 100%, right? Yeah, so I I'm like, oh dang, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, you don't go into it thinking you're gonna steal from your employer, right? Um, but a really cool lesson because this guy, John Davidson, was the store manager, and he said, Hey, you know what? I have faith in this kid. Um, I made a manager because this is who's gonna be my cash manager. So if if you have a problem with him, um you can you know take it up with me. So if he steals from us, you can fire me. And so just seeing somebody with that kind of faith in you early on gives you a lot of confidence, right? So it just really was a huge boost to me and gave me a lot of uh belief in others moving forward, right? When I when you become the manager, you become the supervisor. Um, it just allows you to have that trust and faith and give people that leash, you know, to go do things and just have that that belief that yeah, most people that work for you or work with you are out there doing the right thing 99% of the time. So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, it was really I just had this visualization of you guys sitting in the unemployment office, yeah, like filling out applications together. Oh, well, we tried, kids.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Sorry, John, yeah, sorry, buddy. Yeah, no doubt. Well, yeah, because I it was a lot of responsibility too, because I'm like, you know, not only I I knew I'd never steal, right, but you can't make a mistake. Right. Right? Because this is a long time. Now you can't let him down either. 100%, right? You can never let him down, right? And it's just one of those things where, you know, and for him, of course, that buys that loyalty, that credibility that, you know, hey, this guy's gonna go to the ends of the earth for me. Right. Because he, you know, he went to there, he went there for me, so I would do the same for him, kind of thing. So um, but it it's definitely a good lesson. So, you know, I went from there um into government service. So I worked for our San Mario County Sheriff's Department, um, doing as a civilian, I was a crime prevention officer on Ranch Cucamonga, which was an interesting job, you know, just you know, job shoplifting stuff and all that. No, it was different back then. So this was doing a lot of like neighborhood watches, and so that was interesting because you know, I grew up in a very um tight block, right? Everybody knew everybody and everybody's business, and then I go to this city where nobody knows anybody. It's you know, the it's 7 a.m. The garage doors roll up, all the cars go out, about six, seven p.m., they all roll up and everybody drives in and goes into their houses, and so we're doing these neighborhood watch meetings and stuff, and introducing neighbors who have lived in the same neighborhood for three years for the first time, uh which is interesting. So kind of informed a lot later, you know, when we really got into community policing and things like that, you know, just understanding that a lot of neighborhoods are different, you know, some are tight-knit and know each other, and some have no clue who anybody is or what they do or anything like that. So really disjointed. So that was fun. Um, never plan on it being a career out the whole time, you know, I went to college, I was getting my degree. The whole plan was to get a degree in um marketing, you know, business marketing concentration because I wanted to go into advertising. Yeah, you think about the growing up in the 70s and the 80s, the guys making all the money and driving Ferraris were ad guys, right? Right? They're all working for the ad agencies, you know, doing all those really big programs, all those things. And so that was kind of my thing. It's like I wanted, you know, growing up poor, I wanted to be rich. Big shock, right? So that was my plan to get rich was to go into advertising. So going, getting my degree, and you know, all these other things were just jobs. I was just doing these things. It wasn't some altruistic thing. I'm serving my community. Um, these were jobs, they were good jobs, and I worked hard and had a good time, learned a lot from every single one of them. Um, but that's what they were. And so, you know, at one point I was commuting over 100 miles a day between going to school, going to work, going to see my then girlfriend, now wife. Um, and a job popped up in Redlands, and so it was for community service officer, more like you were thinking, you know, doing the loss prevention and that's doing the yeah, the the burglary reports and you know, all the the minor stuff, right? So um it was for a community service officer position, but this was right after the the 91 to 93 recession, right? So jobs were scarce, yeah, and so they were only opening it up and giving out 50 applications so they didn't get overrun. So um I was in the midst of all my commute, so my then girlfriend, now wife, she was going to pick up the application for me. So she goes to the city of Brothers to get the application. They said, Hey, sorry, we already gave out the 50 applications, so we're done.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

So she, and this is in the olden days for all you youngsters out there. There used to be these like boards with all the job open jobs and the and actual papers. And so she saw one that said crime analyst, and so she grabbed that, she grabbed an application and she brought it home. And so I'm looking at this job application and going, I'm not maybe marginally qualified for this job. But what caught my attention was it said in the job application a couple of key things. One, they would pay for education. I'm like, well, if I get somebody to pay for the last year of my college, teach me all the better. But two, and more realistically, they were having panel interviews for these positions. And so in advertising back in those days, all the jobs were panel interviews. And I knew that. And I had never done a panel interview, so everything up to that point was one-on-one kind of thing, a piece of cake. So I decided, you know what? I'm gonna put an application in just to see if I can get an interview because I want the experience doing a panel interview, no expectations at all. Because like I said, marginally qualified at best. Yeah, certainly there's no way I could be a good applicant for this job. So, you know, I apply for the job at Redlands um for crime analyst, not even really knowing what I'd never even heard the term crime analyst prior to this. And most people hadn't. It was still a very kind of a new and up-and-coming um discipline back then. And so um it opens up. Here's this crime analyst thing. So I prepare, I'm looking at this thing, going, guy, you know, the qualifications for the computer knowledge uh barely. Yeah. And so I start doing some research and you know, trying to learn a few things prior to so somehow I get an interview, which is cool. And so I go to this interview, and there's turns out the panel was only two people. So I was like, oh, great, you know, this is already screwed up. So I hit it off with one of the guys on the panel who happened to have very similar background, worked at a sporting goods store, so it was Sport Mart, his sport. I was like, oh, this is awesome. So we're hitting it off. The other guy, um, he's the guy that knows all the computer stuff. He is the technical expert, and he's asking me all these questions. And I literally, the only time ever in a job interview, I have to go, you know, I'm sorry, I really don't know the answer to that question. I had to say that on not once, but maybe three occasions. What year was this? 1994.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Probably not too far. I mean, you know, computers certainly weren't what they are today. I mean, kids grow up with computers. We did not. No, we did not grow up with computers, man. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, it's probably not that uncommon for somebody to say, I you know, I really don't know. I don't don't work with computers.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

It's just uncommon for somebody applying to be a crime analyst. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of funny. And uh it turns out that the person who was actually hiring for this position was off on paternity leave. So he wasn't there, and these were the fill-ins. And so uh, you know, long story too long. Sorry about that. No, you're good. This is great. It was kind of funny because uh we go through this interview process, and I walked out thinking it was cool because you know, hey, Pat Beaver was the guy that we really connected, you know, boom, boom, boom, and that was awesome. I thought, hey, that was great, it was a good experience, you know. I I was just taking it away for that. And like a week goes by and nothing, you know. So I and I not that I expected anything. And this is in the early days of cell phones, the big old bricks, and uh, I had one for no particular reason. Um and I'm actually at a uh an event as a crime prevention officer with the sheriff's department, yeah, and I get a call from the city of Redlands, and I answer it, and I get off the phone and I'm like, I talk to my partner at the sheriff's department. I said, Hey Sandy, you know, I I think I just got offered a job in Redlands, but I'm not really sure. Um, because the person that called me was really unclear. And uh so she goes, Well, you need to call somebody and find out. And uh, so I call back and I talk to um his secretary, and she's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we're you're gonna start the background process and da-da-da-da. And I was like, Oh wow, you've got to be kidding me. So, yeah, so I start the background process for Redlands for crime analysis, and um, that whole process was very interesting. You know, like I said, I grew up in a an interesting neighborhood, you know, I was you know, not socioeconomically in the higher strata, and so you know, we were kids that found our fair share of trouble. Yeah, and so and I found probably more than my fair share as a child, and you know, with the family background and stuff, I was definitely headed down that path, you know, prior to when I was 15 and got a more of a full-time job at 15. That's when I decided, you know what? I like to make money rather than get in trouble. So um so they start doing my background, and it's a retired sergeant from the sheriff's department doing my background. His name was Don Hardy, awesome guy. But it was funny because he's doing my background and he gets done with the whole thing, and he says, Hey, it's a really good thing you want to be a crime analyst because they will never, ever hire you as a cop.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

You've already been in too much, yeah, you got a family history.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, I've had my license suspended for driving too fast and you know, way too many tickets and all these things. And so, yeah, he he actually says, Never ever hire you as a cop. And I'm like, hey, that's cool, because I don't ever want to be a cop. I mean, still like a crime analyst. I don't yeah, I'm fresh off the neighborhood watch, but I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And so um, so that's what happens, and cool. I started as a crime analyst, and it was like a new discipline at the time, and you know, we uh it was then Captain Uh Jim Beerman, and then he later became chief and just you know huge minor of mine. Um, we started this crime analysis program and and quickly had like a national model. I mean, we were actually you know speaking about our program at national events, and it was fun. I mean, it was really interesting work, right? Because you're taking all this data that people have been collecting for years and making sense of it, right? You're looking for crimes and patterns and series and doing all this cool stuff, and crime mapping was brand new back then, and just you know, really making sense of this data to take your officers instead of having them driving around aimlessly, right? Really giving them targeted information to go actually impact crime. So it's really meaningful work. And I was that was when I first started to get this hey, you know, work isn't just about doing a job, having a good time, getting paid. Yeah, there's actually meaning behind some of this stuff because you're you're giving information that is putting people in jail. I mean, we had a particular case, it was a serial cat burglar. Every time this guy got out of prison, he went to doing back to doing cat burglar.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, a guy that's in your house exactly in the middle of the night and steals from you, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah. Dangerous as heck.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

So we get a series of these popping up, do some research. Yep, this guy got released out of jail, and we start putting together a prediction, right? And boom-boo-boom, hey, I think with 66% reliability, um, he's gonna hit in this area on these days between these times.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

We put up a group together, control guys out there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

And sure enough, he hits foot pursuit in an alley, they take him into custody, and that that's like one of those sentinel moments where you're like, this stuff works. Works, you know, this is incredible, right? And you feel good because now this guy's not gonna be in another house tomorrow night.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

And this is really new at this point, right? Yeah, what's interesting too is I want to kind of back up just a minute because you talked about you know that relationship with the the manager at the sporting goods store, I think is a pivotal point in your life, right? Where growing up the way you grew up, not a lot of people had faith in in you and in the system and in what's going on, right? It's kind of like, yeah, the path is here, and it's you know, my aunt, my uncles, my you know, a lot of family members have already gone down this route, so it's highly likely that that's the route for me. This guy says, No, I see something in you. And I think from that point, what I'm hearing is it kind of gave you a different perspective on yourself. But I think what's interesting is you get involved in neighborhood watch. And I don't know that neighborhood watches you see the signs, yeah, right? Yeah, but tell us just a little bit about what that was and kind of how you guys operated because I think that plays a lot into your crime analyst stuff later on.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Oh, yeah. So neighborhood watch is really simple, it's about getting your neighbors to know each other so that they know when something is out of place, right? And that they will actually do something about it, right? So it's it's so frustrating. And I found this out later when you would go do a burglary investigation in a neighborhood, and then you go do your neighborhood contacts and you start knocking on doors, and you find someone, oh you know, I saw that car pull up and I've never seen it before, and I saw four guys I've never seen before get out, and then I saw four guys with a bunch of pillowcases full of stuff jump into this car and drive away, and they never called the police. And you're thinking, what the heck? You know, that's what neighborhood watches there to stop, right? That if if that neighborhood knows they know your patterns, they know who comes to your house, they know you, they can pick up the phone and say, Hey Chris, um, yeah, this uh black Honda Corps just pulled up to your house and four guys got out and just you're not home, and you're not home, is that normal? And they're like, heck no, call the police, and then that's that's the whole idea. It's so simple, yeah. But in a lot, like I said, in certain cities, it's so necessary because people just do, you know, they they're commuter neighborhoods. People come and they go, but they don't really interact. And so a lot of neighborhood watch was literally just getting people to know each other and to share phone numbers and to share right um information and to say it's okay. You know, when so you see something weird at my house, please do something. Yeah, you know, because a lot of people are just like a lot. I don't want to get involved.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

A lot of people just, I mean, the way that we live today, to your point, yeah, a lot of people don't know, they don't know their neighbors, they certainly don't know the comings and goings. And if you you know, if you're interested in that, then you're a Karen or you're a nosy neighbor, right? And so it's like but you know, my neighborhood, I'm lucky, it's like uh we know the good surroundings of the neighbor. Like I'll tell my neighbor, hey dude, I'm gonna we're gonna be gone. Yes, right? My neighbor will do the same thing. Hey man, just let you know we're gonna be gone. So if you see anything, you got my number, let me know. Hey, cool, not a problem. Exactly. And yeah, I don't think a lot of people do that stuff anymore. I think we're kind of getting back to it. Yeah, but that's an interesting thing because you see these signs everywhere, neighborhood watch, and it's like nobody's doing the neighborhood watch, man. So you guys are getting people together. You're on some level patrolling these neighborhoods too, right? Like, do you guys go out and just kind of walk neighborhoods and check on people, or are you just doing these community events where it's like, hey, we're gonna have this thing, everybody come down and exchange numbers and get to know each other.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

That's what neighborhood watch really is. It's it's less the patrol, you know, it's more of literally getting the neighborhood together. Okay. Most of the time they'll select the captain or two captains of the neighborhood, and they're kind of like the the hubs of the information. Yeah. It and it just works. It's like you said, it's natural for most of us to have these neighborhood connections, but in so many areas, those have just dissipated. And so the idea is to, you know, where necessary, bolster that so that these neighborhoods have these communications and they're they feel comfortable sharing information, they feel comfortable um reaching out to just to say, hey, this is happening, this is weird. You you know, so many times that's like, hey, there's a boy crawling out your daughter's window at two o'clock in the morning, and it's usually not a burglary. Right. Um, you know, but it's all kinds of stuff, right? And so it's one of those things where, you know, because society has changed so much and neighborhoods have changed a lot, that sometimes you need these additional supports to just kind of fill in the gaps.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

The ring doorbell replaced the neighborhood one.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yes, oh my god, yeah. Yeah, or next door and all these different things.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

The next door app is the best thing ever. If you are not on the next door app in your local neighborhood, get on the next door app and start reading what's going on. It cracks me up. Yeah. Did anybody hear that loud boom? Were those gunshots? Like nobody thinks to like maybe check something out.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Anyway, I never there's a coyote in the neighborhood. It's like there's coyotes in our neighborhood every night. Every single night there are coyotes in our neighborhood. Just because you saw one, it doesn't change anything. Yeah. It's it is comical.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

And so you you kind of take that, right? And were you seeing any impact with that stuff that you were doing?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those things where you know the communication is key. And in everything, right? You talk about business, you talk about leadership, you talk about organizations at any level, even communities, it's all about communication, you know? Yeah. And so when you're improving that in a neighborhood, it really matters. And then when I became a crime analyst, sometimes we were we were doing crime analysis information and then providing that to the neighborhoods. And then that turned into apps, right? Where people could log in and see the crime mapping in their area. So they can do something about it, right? Because if you look in your neighborhood and you see, oh, look, all these vehicle burglaries are happening.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I'm going to stop leaving stuff in my car at night. Oh yeah. Or I'm going to lock my door. Okay, cool. You know, because that's the biggest thing is so it's so easy to prevent so much crime, right? I mean, you go out to a vehicle, we would go to vehicle burglaries where there's $7,000 in loss. Because oh, I left a couple laptops and iPad and my phone. Backpack on the front seats all a little bit open.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Exactly. You're like, what are you crazy? Asked for your car to be able to do that. Yeah, you thought this piece of glass is going to protect it, you know. And so it's one of those things where, you know, the whole ounce of prevention kind of idea, right? You know, you're just giving them a little bit of information to kind of make it front of mind. Because everybody knows this stuff in the back of their mind, right? But if you put it front of mind by giving them a little bit of info, a little bit of data sometimes, then all of a sudden they they'll start making uh smarter choices. And you can you can really impact crime just by doing that. And so learning to get people to talk through like the whole neighborhood watch and all that kind of stuff was pivotal. Yeah. Then learning to put the data to it, yeah. You know, it was like icing on the cake. And then and then taking all that, and then right after that is when the whole you know, community-oriented policing came in, and that's what it's all about. That was all about communication and information, right? Um, about the police department opening up its lines of communication with everybody and providing the data because for so long departments would just hoard it because it would look made you look bad. Well, if burglaries went up, well, we don't want to say anything about that because that makes us look bad. Yeah, well, no, it doesn't. You know, it makes you look bad if you're hiding that information and more people get burglarized because you're not telling people to be more careful. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna be able to do that. That wasn't the mindset way back in the day. So a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah, a little different. So you just kind of uh it the things just kind of started lining up for you early on, and you just kind of paved the way, and interesting enough, ended up in this crime analyst position. How long did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

So about two years. So I was doing that for about two years, and you know, still I had finished my degree at that point and still was planning to go into advertising, but you know, at that time, you know, this is back in the mid-90s, right? So you're talking about in those days, a department like Redlands, good department, good community, good reputation, we would have hundreds of qualified applicants for every open police officer job.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So it and we and you never had any openings. This is before the retirement system changed to the 3% of 50%. So people stayed in the career longer, so there just were no job openings. So I started thinking about it a little bit. Um, you know, hey, that looks kind of fun, and partly because I was situated in our department working with all the detectives. You won't find a group of people having a better time at work usually than a bunch of detectives. Um, and I got to live it eventually, but I'm watching these guys and just going, this is incredible. I mean, these guys are coming to work, they are screwing around all the time, they're having a great time, they're doing awesome stuff, they're solving cases left and right. I mean, we had a reputation of just solving all kinds of crime, and these guys are having a blast. I mean, every day coming to work, they're messing with each other. It's like I think working at a frat house, basically, you know that's kind of what I'm thinking of. And I missed the whole fraternity thing. You know, I didn't have time or money for that when I was in college. So I'm thinking, this is incredible, this must be what it's like.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

And so I'm watching this happen. And at the same time, you know, I'm finishing my degree and thinking, you know, God, it might be something to consider, you know, because it looks like it's a lot of fun. And it just so happened that we had somebody in the department that did something really, really stupid. And so he got the option of, you know, leaving leaving a lieu of termination. And so that's what happened. And and again, because of the environment where we would have, I knew if they opened that up, we'd have hundreds of people applying. Sure. Right, hundreds. And so I walked over to the chief's office, which was right down the hall, and I said, Chief, um, I think I want to be a cop. And he goes, I knew this was gonna happen. And I'm looking at him like, what do you mean you knew this was gonna happen? I I'm pretty sure I just decided five minutes ago this was gonna happen. Right. And uh, you know, Lou Nelson, one of the greatest human beings you'll ever meet in your life, and just you know, he he throws, I knew this was gonna happen. He goes, Well, I guess we're gonna lose the best crime analyst, but we're gonna gain a pretty good cop, I suppose. And so he's like, Well, you know, I guess we should have some sort of an interview. And so I'm like, Okay. And uh so he starts asking me the generic questions, you know, and and then he gets to the question of like, well, hey, you know, where do you see your career going? And I look at him kind of quizzically, I'm like, sitting in your chair, I'll be the chief of police. And he he looks surprised, and I'm like, Yeah, I'll be the chief of police. And he so he kind of just shines me on, okay. And uh it was kind of crazy because this was the end of September in 1996, and so he says, Okay, that's cool. Um, we have to update some of your background stuff, we'll try to get you into um the January Academy, because this is back when it was hard to get in the academies. We'll try and get you in the academy in January, if not March. I'm like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Is that just because they were so full?

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, yeah, they were packed because they were like opening West Valley Detention Center in San Burrill County, which was hundreds of jobs for the Sheriff's Department, just a busy, busy time. So um I'm like, okay, that's fine. And all of a sudden I walk out and everything is cool. I'm all happy and excited. So I call my wife. She was less than excited because I had not told her anything about this yet. And uh I said, hey, baby, don't worry about this. I'll try it for a year. If we don't like it, I'll go get a real job. And you know, the the long-standing joke is I've never had a real job because it I never did, you know. Um, so uh I get a call a little bit later that day saying, Hey, good news, somebody dropped out of the October 7th Academy. Got you right in next week. And I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Man, this thing's just taking off.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah. So October 7th, I jumped in the academy, 110 degrees in Devore that day. It was crazy. So um a lot of fun, you know, until I showed up on day one. Um, I show up in on day one in a Redlands PD uniform at the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Academy. And who's there but one of the deputies I used to talk to a lot at Rancho and told him all the time, I'm never gonna be a cop. I'm never gonna be a cop. And he's standing there as a TAC officer at the academy. So um that was uncomfortable. So yeah, he he gave me a real hard time that day, but uh, but a lot of fun. The academy was a blast. Um, and then literally just kind of fell into it. You know, I just I really did go into with that idea of like, hey, I'm here to have a good time. Yeah um it was kind of bizarre because you know, this was uh the early days of three strikes in California, the three strikes law. Yeah, which I mean for a a young cop, that is like A plus, right? Because every everybody forgets everyone already had two strikes. Yeah. When that law passed, all the bad guys already had two strikes. Yep. So everything was a pursuit, a foot pursuit, and a fight. Yep. And so every two weeks you're getting your check feeling guilty, going, geez, I can't believe they painted. And you're in Redlands. Yeah, it was busy. Yeah, we're surrounded by Samura Jimbo and Reno Valley and Highland. And it's like there's a lot happening. We were busy. I mean, it was awesome, you know. And to be a young cop there, I mean, it was just a blast. The department expected you to be proactive. I mean, the expectation was you were out there looking, hooking, and booking. My first FTO was like, every night, I want five arrests, I want so many tickets, I want this. I mean, every in in 12 and a half hours, you better have all this stuff every 12 and a half hours, you know. And that was from the training on. So it was just like, yeah, and you can make it happen. I mean, if you're out there busy, yeah, you'd make it happen. And it was a blast. I mean, and like I said, every couple weeks you're guilty because they're actually paying you to do this. And so just had a blast. I mean, it the the whole career was fun. Um, and then I was able to just keep on working through it, and opportunities came. It was just like every everything just fell into place. I mean, yeah, we we never had opportunities to promote because like nobody would ever leave. I mean, why would you leave? So nobody ever left, but then you know, we we did this thing where we took over the policing at the University of Redlands. We, you know, so we put a lieutenant over there which created a corporal's position, so a new corporal's position. So I tested for that. I didn't have any business testing for that. I was too new, but I got it. So boom, now I'm a corporal, which is awesome. Then I that's when I got to be a detective. Best time of my life. I mean, and you know, the the run of you know, unfortunate for a lot of individuals, of course, you know, it was a time where we had some very complex homicide investigations and just some really interesting cases that I got to be part of and lead and all these different things, and just very interesting work. I mean, you and I I would remember thinking like I could have been just stuck, you know, trying to come up with some stupid jingle for some stupid product that I don't care about. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh my god, I could be doing that. I could be sitting in an office in a cubicle, I could be doing boring work every day. Yeah, and instead I'm out here doing this. And I know I never lost the gratitude for the ability to do this job because it was just you know, it's a great community. Redens is a great city, the the community is awesome, they support their police. We had great city councils for the most part. Um, just you know, great leadership and management in the department, great people who work for the department at all levels. I mean, in all areas of the department, you know, whether you're talking the professional staff, the other cops, everybody, just really great people, great other city departments, you know, some Redlands Fire Department, great people, you know, to work with because you're hand in hand all the time. You're on all the calls, you know, together. Like every every call they're on, you're at, and vice versa for the most part. And it was just, I mean, it was a great time to do the job for sure. I mean, it had a blast, and you know, I remember thinking, you know, I'm gonna do this job that's fun, but I'm gonna be poor for the rest of my life. I mean, because back then policing didn't pay a whole lot. But then, you know, I just so happened to fall into the career when even the pay and benefits really took off in the job, and so yeah, you don't end up poor forever. You know, it got to be a good fair compensation system, which was awesome. And yeah, I get to be a detective and work great cases, and you know, sergeant's spot opened up and applied for that. Probably the the newest person who applied for that got that job. I love that. I mean, you won't find a lot of people that uh don't think being a sergeant in patrol is probably the best job in policing. Yeah, right. I mean, it's pretty incredible. You know, you're running a good team. We did team-based things, so you had the same people you rotated with. I mean, you know, members of my team, one's a chief of police here in Orange County, um, one's a deputy chief of police in Redlands. I mean, just outstanding people. One's a commander in Redlands, I mean, just some of the best people on my patrol team. And you just get to work with these people every day. And it's a privilege. I mean, honestly, I mean, just to watch them work and to teach them little things here and there, um, remove barriers. You know, that's how I always saw you know, supervision and leadership was just, hey, I assume these like I told you earlier, I assume these people are gonna be here to work, work hard and do the right thing. My job is just to get rid of the barriers, you know, whatever those might be, get rid of the barriers so they can go out and do the job.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Give them the trainings, give them the tools, yeah. Let them let them get to the position of being able to do their job with the best knowledge possible.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah, so and that's what I did, you know, and then lieutenant, commander, and then you know, in 2017, um went on vacation, um, packed up the family, drove up to Pismo Beach, towed our fifth wheel up there, put it on the site. Hour later, I got a call from the city HR director saying, Hey, um, you need to be here tomorrow at 4 p.m. for an interview for the chief of police job. What? Because when I left, our chief wasn't going anywhere. Right. So uh that was kind of a shocker. And so I showed up. Um, yeah, it was kind of a bummer packing up your three kids, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

We just got here, we gotta go. Yeah. So we we did, we packed up and uh um, yeah, then I was, you know, got the chief's job in 2017, and and I was just it literally is a privilege. I mean, to to work with those people and to lead an organization like that. Just a lot of go-getters, um, like I said, great community. And, you know, being a chief of police is you know, it's not all fun and games, of course, you know, because you have to do the the hardest parts of the job, you know, but you know, the discipline and all that kind of you're the final arbiter of the discipline and all that kind of stuff. But you know, you also get to hire in the next generation, you get to promote people, you get to, you know, share all the wins of your department with the community and the council and all that kind of stuff all the time. So, you know, definitely uh, you know, you get the the good with the bad kind of thing. But a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

So that I mean it it in listening, right? It just really sounds like you know, I'm a firm believer in God, whether you are or not, I don't know, none of my business, but it really sounds like God had a plan because you know, uh every barrier, so to speak, it was just kind of moved like this typically doesn't happen. Well, this guy quit, or this typically doesn't happen. Well, that guy got fired. This typically doesn't happen, but here we are, you know, and so it's like there was no real challenges for you to overcome. Not to say that it, you know, everything came with ease, but at the same time, there was a lot of things removed, and it seems like you know, there was a clear path for you to end up where you did, yeah, you know, and to have the career um that you had. You know, you and I were talking a little bit about that this prior to you know uh starting the podcast, and it was like you were saying, Well, I really don't have you know, like we get a lot of guests on here who have heavy, heavy stories, and uh unfortunately their career ends up with some you know negative side effects, so to speak, right? There's a lot of mental health, there's a lot of addiction. You're like, I don't have any of that, I had a great career. Um, and that's that's tremendous. And I think people need to understand that it's not all, yes, it's a very difficult job, and yes, there is there is a mental health crisis when it comes to our first responders, but a lot there's a lot of good that comes out of, and a lot of people have successful careers and they come out, they come out and through on the other side. You know, you were you and I were jokingly saying, like, you know, there's a lot of people sitting in your position and go, should should I have something wrong with me? Should I be more messed up? Because I I don't feel like I am. Um, but you know, I think a lot of that goes to one, it goes to your credit, kind of how you're built and and the resiliency and the way that you coped with things, you know, over time. And and we can talk a little bit about that because I'm sure there were some difficult points in your career, you know, and um you had to develop ways to to kind of you know come through that. So um, and then looking at you know the mental health component and what it what it was then, yeah, right? Right. Um, and so tell us just a little bit about I mean, what were some of those harder challenges for you, right? That that you know, I know this was a clear path for you, but what what do you remember as some of those more difficult times?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, there were definitely hard times. I mean, and a lot of it had to do with you know, people call it like the imposter syndrome or whatever, you know. I never felt like I belonged 100%, was part of it, you know, in that whole community. One because of my family background. Yeah. Most of the people I worked with, they were five years old and decided they want to be a cop because their dad was a cop and their grandpa was a cop and everything else. And that was their their destiny, essentially. Whereas I was like, oh, I just fell into this, uh, I don't even know what I'm doing here, kind of thing. Um, so there was some of that, and then and then just there was always the a lot of it was the internal pressure, right? Because people, a lot of people criticized me because I promoted fast. I mean, I and I would because I was like, no, I want to do the next thing. I want to do the next thing, I want to do the next thing. Um, so there was some of that. Um, and then of course, you know, the actual hard moments of of the job, right? I mean, you see the worst things, and for me, it was interesting. I got, you know, not too long into my career, I got into a fatal officer-involved shooting. Um, and it was interesting because we had always had the counseling team services, right? So we had counseling available and all that stuff, and of course, none of us hardly, you know, as far as I know, nobody ever used it. Um, but I get in this shooting, and it was our department policy that you had to talk to a clinician before you could come back to work. So we had a very short hallway, and walking down this short hallway after you know, this fatal officer-involved shooting, five different people, including a lieutenant, said, Hey, you have to talk to a clinician before you can come back to work, but you don't have to say anything. Five people, including a lieutenant. So you don't have to say anything. Exactly, yeah. You gotta talk to him, but you don't have to say much. Exactly. So I go, I do what I'm told to do, right? So I go to my appointment, I go to the clinician, I'm like, I don't really know what I'm doing here. Like, well, you know, you we're here to talk about you know the shooting and how you feel about that. I'm like, well, here's how I feel about it. This guy bought us a ticket and we punched it. That's it. Yeah, I've got nothing else to say about that, right? And that was it. Um, so never took advantage, right? Never took advantage of that. And honestly, it's interesting, but that incident didn't impact me, really. I mean, I don't think. I mean, because literally that that's that is one of those black and white things. You know, this guy was trying to kill us, we ended up killing him. It is what it is, right? I mean, that's not our problem. But there are those other calls, and it and it's funny because I didn't realize until I came here, of course, but it's all the stuff with the kids, always the kids stuff, and it got me one time because you know, we were looking for a new house and uh a new old house. It's Redlands, they're all old. Um, so I don't know a lot of people don't know this, but like the old Victorian homes in Redlands in most places, there's only a handful of design plans, right? And there's a whole bunch of those in a city. Yep. So years prior, I had gone to the death of a three-year-old child and in a home and particular Victorian style home in Redlands. Same model. So we go to this house, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Same build, open house.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

We stop by, we walk in. I walked in the front door about two feet, looked in there, immediately turned around and walked out, and my wife's like, What the heck is wrong with you? I'm like, I can't. Yeah, I said, You can go look if you want. I'm not looking. We will not buy this house. I can't even walk in there, let alone go in. So I'd explain to her what the deal was. It's like I, as soon as I walked in, picture that girl, and I just was like, You can still see, you know, and it was and it's interesting. That was a it was a natural death. It was a girl that was born with a lot of problems. So I mean it wasn't anything horrific. Yeah, it's still possible. Exactly, yeah. And then, you know, you just all the stuff like that, you know, those kinds of things. Did you have kids at the time? That was before we even had kids, which I you know, because I always hear that too, you know. And then we eventually did have kids, and then you know, for me, that turned on a whole different side, but it was more of the the anger side, like when you saw what people would do to their kids, then it was like, oh no, you don't, you know, that then it's the you know, trying to control that beast in you when you see somebody that did something to a kid and you you know being the professional and doing what you're allowed to do under the law, you know, and doing that rather than what you want to do, right? Which is interesting, and then fighting that battle, right? Because it's like you know what that person deserves in your mind, right? Um, but you know what you gotta do, and you and you do it, right? And it's not like it's a tough thing, you know what you have to do and you do the professional thing, but but you know, it's like it's tough to look at that, what people will do, and you know, I know a lot of the people we talk to here, that's the struggle. It's like I just can't believe what people will do to other people, and it's it is something, and that that is one of those things that you constantly have to just go, oh my gosh. And it's interesting because when it's like gangster on gangster, I mean that's a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

And that's the and that's the thing, right? And people will argue that, and I'm I'm not me too yeah, yeah. It's I think it's much easier when they're adult choices with adult consequences, right? And it's much easier for us to rationalize the life that you know, and most people will say, Yeah, it's a wasted life. It is, yeah, but at the same time, you know, they they had choices, they made Choices they could, you know, and now that they paid the consequence, you know, sucks for them.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

As to where you're dealing when you're dealing with kids, you're like, that's a true victim. Yeah, exactly. A kid doesn't have a choice, and that's where most you know, that moral injury that most come out, and it's like that's that kid has no choice. Exactly. Right? The kid was that didn't choose to be born into that, didn't choose to be abused, didn't choose to have those things. Yeah, and the protector comes out and it's like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

And even the lesser stuff, you know, where you would show up at a house at you know at two o'clock in the morning, and it's just like these kids are up and they're like talkers and they're awake and just stumbling around with a two-liter Coke bottle drinking out of it, and you're going, This is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Yeah, you know, this is wrong. You should be amazing. That kind of stuff, you know. It just you know in you know, interspersed with the violent murders and you know, all these other cases, you know, the the rapes of young girls and stuff. That's like that stuff is terrible, you know. And it's just like yeah, it's horrific. And and to your point earlier, it's like you know, that really did get to me at some point where it's like, why doesn't this stuff bother me? And it was after I came here, right? Where I'm I'm seeing all these people here and hearing their stories and thinking, these stories brought them here. Yeah, I've seen all this has been my life for three decades practically. So why am I sitting outside the circle? You know, what's wrong with me? How old am I? How is it that and and nothing nothing ever happened here, you know? It did.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

You know, absolutely things happened, and I'm sitting across from you watching you, and I can tell like it affected you 100%. Yeah, there's just you know, you learned and and you know, you learned some somewhere along the way, right? And maybe you can identify how to cope with some of that stuff. You know, I don't know if you had a great family support system, you know, what you were doing, but um, I mean, knowing what I know of you, you you didn't overly indulge in in drinking and stuff like that, which was very common for people, you know. So I don't know for you what came about and what tools you developed, yeah. Um, but you didn't walk out of there unscathed. You're not a psychopath, you know. You jokingly was saying to us earlier, like, I don't know, I don't know, maybe I'm a psychopath, I just don't have any emotion. It's like, no, you do. You just you learn how to compartmentalize it because you have to. Um, you know, and every individual is different, you know, and you can't have a 25, 30-year law enforcement career and and leave out of there unscathed. You just can't. You carry stuff with you, you still carry stuff with you, you've just found a healthy way to to manage it and deal with it. So um, yeah, I just it's I and I I say this all the time. The majority of people just don't understand what you guys deal with. They don't everybody has an opinion about law enforcement. You know, it's I think first responders when it comes to first responders, I think cops have it the worst. I think they have you get it's more it's the more difficult for you. I've done several ride-alongs. Yeah, yeah. And being in a fire truck or in a fire engine, people are waving at you with all my fingers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I mean kids are waving at you, you know, people see you going by. Yeah, and I've been in a few cop cars, and it is a completely different feel. Yeah, you know, it every once in a while you'll get somebody, you know. I remember I was in Cyprus one time and it's probably a retired cop. It was waving at you potentially. So it was like, you know, we pulled up, and uh, I remember talking to the cop and and prior to getting in the car and and him telling me, you know, it's just I said, what do you find more difficult? You know, he said, you just feel like a target everywhere you go. And I thought, okay, buddy, you know, okay. It can't be that bad, right? No, he wasn't wrong. Yeah. Uh, but we did, like we pulled up and the window started to go down, and I looked at him, and and he was just kind of like, he just he didn't make any sudden moves, but then a little hand came out. You know, it was this little kid waving, and I was like, we both kind of went, oh, it was like a sigh of relief, you know, like okay, yeah, because you just don't know. And the majority of the time, even people I think who are pro-police, who support police, I don't think they're necessarily always always excited to see a cop behind them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not right.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Man, when an undrafted here in a high patrol gets behind me, man, the sweat starts coming down still. You know, it is what it is, different things, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

So um and then and then there is all of the stuff that you do with so you you you have to, you know, you pack it away, you yeah, you know, you figure out a way to deal with it. Um, and then you know, for you now, I think it's interesting. So just kind of wrap up where you were. So you you you made the uh the forecast. I'm gonna have your job be the chief of police. And sure enough, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Did you ever go back? And like, did you guys ever go back? Well, oh yeah. I you know what popped into my head first off was like, Did you ever go back to the guy who said you will never, ever, ever be a be a cop?

SPEAKER_01 49:00

He passed away before? Not not before. He did he did know that I became a cop because his son was a detective with us. So Mark Hardy is his son, and and he Mark Hardy is hysterical, right? So we worked together forever, and he used to be the one to give me uh unique nicknames. So uh we'll leave that out. But uh he's a great guy, and so I'm gonna have one. No, no, no, gosh, no. So I did tell Mark that story one time. He goes, Yeah, sounds like my dad. 100%. Yeah, you gotta give us one, it'll make a great title for the podcast. Oh my gosh. Oh gosh, no, no, no, no. I'll let you, you've got to track Mark down for that one. But uh but it you know, it was just a blast, you know. And and you know, as far as the chief goes, it's funny because uh he was in Rotary and he was introducing me at a rotary function one time. And granted, this is like 20 years after this conversation that we had had when I got hired, and so he goes, Well, you know, and Lou Nelson is probably the best storyteller you've ever met in your life. Um, he's awesome. And so he gets up there and well, this is the only guy that sat across from me and said he was gonna take my job, and did. And I'm like, Hey, wait a second. No, there were like two chiefs in between in 20 years, you know. And uh it was just so funny, you know. He's just uh he is a character, so and he and he was just always a huge mentor and support along the way, you know. Unfortunately, he had to retire like in 1998 for some health concerns, but um, but just a great guy, and I still see him, you know, it's funny we run into each other still, you know, on occasion, and just uh a plus human being, just a great guy. And and I credit, you know, like you know, Chief Nelson, Chief Beerman. I mean, I've just had these people along the way that just like you said, you know, the barriers removed and just the right supports, you know, because you if you look at that whole risk factor versus protective factor thing, it's just like both of those really did line up in a lot of ways. And you know, me finding my wife, you know, who had no reason to stay with me ever and did, you know, throughout all of this, and then I throw on her, you know, I'm gonna become a cop when she was not thrilled with that idea and stuck with me throughout that, you know. When I talk about, you know, like yeah, what was probably the thing that kept me really on the straight and narrow and healthy throughout this, you know, just having that consistency. Yeah, we just just celebrated 31 years of marriage. Beautiful. Just you know, just having that and and then looking backwards too and saying, hey, you know what? We're never gonna have the life that I saw growing up, you know, divorce and you know I was always the guy people used to love me as a new cop because I would volunteer to work all the holidays because I didn't I never liked holidays. Because you know, as a kid at a work, it was always the yeah, uh it was just the horrible times, right? So you know, your parents always you feel guilty because you're going from one to the other, and so just yeah, I'll wear Christmas for you, you know. So I was a popular guy for that, but you know, it's one of those things where um just knowing that that exists and knowing that you can do something different, and then you know, my wife's a huge strong personality, right? So um she she's not gonna put up with any BS. So bottom line, you know, it's one of those things where um I think that's a huge reason why I was able to just kind of keep steady and and make it through.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

So yeah, well, I mean, a strong marriage, right? Which I mean, uh, you know, you know, unfortunately, a lot of marriages do not last in in these careers. Yep. Uh so a strong marriage, it sounds like you had some really good mentors along the way. So I have to imagine they had some impact on how it was that you were dealing with all of the things, right? So if you had some healthy uh officers along the way who were, you know, showing you that they were dealing with it in an appropriate manner, even though everybody told you don't say anything. Yeah. You know, and I think I mean you know this better than I do. I mean, that was just that was the way to deal with it. Just don't talk about it. Yeah, right? Like you just don't talk about it. And if you don't talk about it, then there's nothing to talk about, and you signed up for it, and let's just go, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:00

100% go to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

If it's bothering you that much, you have a few drinks over it, maybe shed a tear here or there, but you suck it up, you get back onto it, and you know, exactly don't drag that shit around with you, don't take it home kind of thing. And then let's go. And uh and you cut up and and do what you need to do, and you got the dark humor and those sorts of things. Um and I think you know, we know now, obviously, that you know, unfortunately, that's just not the way. Yeah, you know, it's not the way, and and that we're learning um that that that is detrimental to a lot of people, and it keeps a lot of people holding on to things that they have no business holding on to. Um, but I also think, too, and I've had enough people on the podcast to understand there was a generation that came before you guys that I mean they were tough as nails, man. You know, and you had you had these guys that came, you know, the Vietnam vets that signed up to be police officers, and they were no bullshit, straightforward, you don't like it, pack your shit, yeah, get a different job. You know, this is what we're here for, and they had no problems with any of it, you know, and so therefore you had no problems with it. And if you did, you weren't cut out for the job. Yeah, and um, you know, a lot of those guys, those good those guys became police officers, and they became they became firefighters, and they raised that generation which you know passed those same things on to you guys, and it was like they just they were no BS, man. And uh, you know, no safe spaces, none of that stuff existed, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:29

And it was drive you to McDonald's and say, go in there and get an application. Yeah, it's the same for you. There it is, the same for you. Go get yourself an application, right? Yeah, you want bankers' hours, go work at a bank. There you go. I mean, these are the things that were these are the routine things that were said, right? And just hey, you know, suck it up and go to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Yeah, I mean, it was just that was if you don't want to be here, don't be here. Yeah, 100%. Otherwise, fall in line.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Hundreds of people that want your job, and that was always the feeling. And so, yeah, you would never you know risk anything by ever saying anything, right? Because yeah, you did not want, I mean, the job was so uh important. I mean, because it was just such a cool job, right? Yeah, you we're gonna risk that by you know bringing up something for sure. I mean, it was just one of those things where people didn't, and then we see the consequences, right? I mean, that's you know, we see it here, but I saw it, you know, going through it, right? People that should have been in the career longer that weren't. Yeah, people that left the agency hating it and hating everybody in it, and it and you're going, why? Because like a year ago you were fine, everything was cool. Yeah, you know, and and now, of course, I didn't know any of this until I came here, and then you learn about all this stuff and you're thinking, oh my gosh, and that's why I'm here, right? Is to then when you know more, you gotta do more. And my thing is like, hey, now everybody needs to know about this stuff because we got to prevent more and more people from hating this career and leave, you know. Sometimes people have to leave the career, but you don't have to leave it hating it, right? Right? I mean, just hey, it was a time that I did, you know, it wasn't for me at some point, and now I'm gone. That's cool, but yeah, the ones that just hate everybody, and it's just really hard to watch that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

And so you wrapped up your career as the the chief of police of Red Linz. Yeah, um and so I think we talked a little bit about that, right? If at all, what was what was the support for mental health during those periods of time? I know we just talked about kind of like suck it up kind of a thing, but was there any like peer support? Was there any like during those periods of time that you remember what was he's probably gonna say, oh, it was an 800 number?

SPEAKER_01 56:35

Yeah, I mean, we always had the counseling team, right? So we always had availability of services, you know, because we're fortunate, we're here in the area that had it, but again, nobody took advantage of it. I mean, it wasn't really discussed much. I don't think most of us understood what it really meant that it was okay to utilize it, that sort of thing. And I don't think it was anybody's fault necessarily, it was just one of those things, and maybe more people use it, it's very confidential, right? So maybe we don't have confidential. So maybe more people were using it than I know. I didn't, um, you know, there were times where I should have, you know, for sure. I look back now and yeah, there are times where I should have, where as a family we were struggling more than we needed to, right? You know, and I you I hear you say all the time, you know, it's not about surviving, it's about thriving. So if you're not thriving, you know, those kinds of situations for sure. Um and then we we would have peer support teams, and then they would, you know, just fade away, and then we did it wrong a couple times. And so, and I was always the person that never believed in peer support because I was always like, I would never, you know, I would never go to some peer I work with right in that capacity. I'd go to a buddy, yeah, but not just you know, a official peer supporter. I would never go to somebody like that and have a confidential conversation with them ever. Yeah, I mean, and so I never believed in it, I never did anything to stop it, but I was just like, Yeah, I would never do that because I didn't understand it. I did not understand it. So I think one of the best things we have now is this executive peer support course or peer support for executives. Yeah, so executives can understand what it is because I just did not have a good understanding of what it was. By the time I we were really talking a lot about peer support, yeah, I was already, you know, lieutenant commander chief and did not have a good understanding, which is dumb. You know, that that's that's on me.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Which is unfortunate because you were a guy that was like, I want to remove as many barriers as possible. I want to give them not knowing though. Had you known, obviously it would have been a difference in what you would have done with it.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Exactly. So by the time I was leaving, I was finally getting my head straight, and we're like, so we were we had stopped the you know, we had a kind of a negative situation with peer support, so we had stopped it and we're about to rebuild it. And so the chief that followed me was able to get it up and going, and I think they have a very good thing going now, which is awesome. Um but it just was you know, it was a lack of understanding of what the value is. And then I come here and find out, oh yeah, okay, most of the people here are here because they went to a peer supporter. And you think, oh my God, that's the value of a peer supporter. I mean, amongst all the other stuff, but it's legitimate. You know, these are people helping people, keeping people alive. Um so a lot of it was just the ignorance of how to run it right and and the value of it and all that kind of stuff. So just you know, it was really a game changer coming here and finding out about this.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

So yeah, how'd you end up here?

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Dumb luck, like everything else in my life. Um, like you said, I mean, my wife says this all the time. She's like, no, there is a hand guiding all this. Yeah, okay. All this stuff falls in my lap. So I'm president of the California Police Chiefs Association because you know, when I when I see a problem throughout my whole life, it's like I I want to be in charge so I can solve the things that I think are wrong, right? So Cal Chiefs, I wasn't really thrilled with some of the things that they were doing way back in the day, right? So I started getting in the process to get on the board for Cal Chiefs to change all that stuff, right? So that's what I did, and I became president. And you know, I think Cal Chiefs is a great organization doing great work all throughout the state, um in all realms. And so I was the president of Cal Chiefs, and when I was president, you know, I'm in Redlands, it's hot in Redlands, right? Yes, it is. So when we were gonna have board meetings, I we have four board meetings a year. I'm like, all of them have to be in a beach city, and we gotta find people to buy us a good board dinner. So we had a board meeting here in Newport Beach, and Dr. Odom and Devin bought us a board dinner, and the payback was that we would show up on a tour the next day. So we show up on this tour, and I was recently reminded by the current executive director of Cal Chiefs, Sarah Edmonds, um, that I came kicking and screaming. Pretty true. So I'm like, I don't have time for this. Oh my god, what a waste, whatever. So I show up on the tour and hear about what was going on here, and I was blown away. Yeah, I was just like, no way, is this really happening? I mean, really, you've got 60 to 80 plus people here, first responders, getting treatment, dude, dude, and I'm hearing all this stuff going, that can't be. And so I was super impressed. It happened to be one week to the day before I was set to retire. Um, so and that had come up somehow. So the whole tour wraps up, and me being me, I've never had a filter, right? Unfortunately, never had a filter on this stupid thing. And so I told Dr. Odom you're gonna take his job? I went no close. I went to Devin and I said, This thing is awesome that you guys have going here, but you guys do a crappy job about telling people about it. To the guy that's that's his primary role in the organization, right? So that's how I got started, right? So I tell him, you know, I've been a cop for almost 30 years. I've been a chief for five and a half, I've been president and on the board for Cal Chiefs. I was president for a year and on the board for many years, and I've never heard of you guys. Yeah, how is and I'm 60 miles down the road. Yeah, and this is a big country. So if I'm 60 miles away and I've never heard of this, I guarantee, and and the other chiefs in the room had never heard of it either for the most part. And so I told him this, and he goes, Well, you know, you know, Devin. He goes, Well, you mentioned you're retiring in a week. What do you want to do about it? What do you want to do about it? I was like, and I'm thinking in my head, usually when you say that to a cop, what's the next thing that's gonna happen? Right? Um, but I'm like, oh, resisting my urge, right? And so then I'll what do you mean? What do I want to do about it? And he goes, Well, what do you want to do about it? You said you're retiring in a week, so you know, how about you come on board and do do do do? And then all of a sudden, I always say, I always joke after 10 grueling days of retirement, um, I was working here and my job, you know, director of strategic relationships, you know, all that means I go talk to chiefs, fire chiefs, sheriffs, command staffs, and let them know about our resources, right? Which is incredibly fulfilling because nobody should not know about this resource. Because when you have somebody that needs to be here, yeah, you have it. That's not when you want to start looking for this resource. Yeah, you have to have this in your back pocket because you need, you know, if it's two o'clock on a Saturday morning, you got to know who you're calling on Monday and where they're gonna go, you know, and knowing you can get them there, knowing it's the right place, all that kind of stuff. You know, and it's just incredible. But it's funny when I had initially signed on to come work here, you know, I was still skeptical. Right? You don't go through a career like this, you don't grow up like I grew up and go through this career and not be a skeptic, right? So I heard that all this stuff was happening, and I always say it kind of jokingly, but somewhat true, that hey, you know, I heard there's a bunch of cops and firefighters down here, you know, sharing their feelings and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Show me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Yeah. But I'm like, the BS meters going brrrrrrrrrr. And I said, you know, the firefighters, sure. Yeah, everybody believes that. Not the cops, yeah, but not the cops, yeah. And I say it kind of jokingly, but you think about firefighters, they have a very good system of working in teams, yes, so they have a better system. I'll say it, okay. Firefighters have a better system. Um, 100% of actually being able to hopefully communicate with each other. Yes. Um, cops, you go to the absolute worst thing you've ever seen in your life, something no one should ever have to see. And what do you do? You get in your car by yourself and drive away, go to the next call. Yep, that's it. Over and over, hundreds of times throughout a career. Hundreds of times. Yeah. So believing that they're down there sharing their feelings to me was like, there is no way. I've worked with hundreds of cops throughout my career. Yeah, there's no way it's happening until you go down there and you see it day in. Yep. Well, you knew when I came here for the first two months, I was embedded in what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

Devin called me and he said, he said, I have this guy. He was the chief of Redlints. He goes, What can we do? He goes, I want to put him in, you know, I want him to experience some of this stuff. I said, Well, if you and you were the first, by the way, of I said, So if you want him to experience it, you got to give them to me for about five weeks. Yeah. And just put him, I'm just gonna put him in the program, and I'm just gonna let him experience the program, meet the people. So, and that's what we did. I think you were here for five or six weeks. Yes, oh yeah, uh, through family program, and you attended the groups, you went, you hung out with the people uh and saw what you saw. And it's interesting because that you say that because yeah, and I definitely want to hear more about, but I one of the things that I I mean, there's there's a multitude of things that I enjoy about working with this population, and over the years I have grown fond of working with law enforcement officers for a number of reasons. Um but it's the best thing to watch them walk, they because they can't believe what they're witnessing, yeah, right? No doubt they're day one or day two, and they're like, Is this like we don't talk about this stuff? What's this guy doing? Exactly. Is that guy crying over there? Yes, come on, man. What is this, right? And they and you can see they're just super uncomfortable, but all of a sudden, this environment just embraces them and they realize, like, no, man, this is how we get better. Yeah, you know, and the guys are like, I get it, dude. Yep, it's gonna wear it. Like, trust me, dude, it's gonna wear on you, and then you know, you see them. They start to integrate into the community, they start to accept that they're here, and they kind of start to open up a you know with a little bit, and then pretty soon it's you know, they're they're they're front foot forward, you know, and they're just they're all in, and that's it's it's tremendous. Um, and you're right. I mean, whether they know it or not, when it comes to that piece, firefighters have it, you know, there's less barriers there, they're used to being around each other. Yeah, even when they're not talking, they're talking, they're interacting, so there's something to that, and you guys don't have that same system, man. You're just to your point, you go deal with something horrific, you jump in your car by yourself, fill out your reports by yourself, you know, and you're on to the next one by yourself. So you're just kind of learning how to deal with things. But but so you get here, we put you through the program, and you in and what was some of the first things that kind of stood out to you outside of what we just talked about, everybody sharing what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

I mean, the thing that blew me away, and I always tell people this was no undercover boss situation, you know, they knew who I was and what was here. Yep. Um everybody told me this place saved my life, yeah, saved my career, saved my marriage, saved my relationship with my kids, or any combination or all those things. Right. And I'm nobody to these folks, right? They don't have any reason to tell me this stuff, so it's legit. And to me, it was really eye-opening because I came in, you know, barely dipping my toe in the water. I was, I didn't know what I was gonna do in retirement. I didn't have, you know, this is California. You don't have to work when you retire as a chief of police, you know. We're fortunate 100%. So I was like, Oh, I'll do this just a little bit, you know, just see what it's like. I go down there and it completely changed my outlook, you know, 100%. And then I I heard great stories and I heard terrible stories, you know, about you know, when we talk about leadership, and I tell chiefs this all the time. I talked to a person down there that I said, hey, you know, how's your agency, you know, uh helping you while you're here? And he told me, I'm here in spite of my department.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Um, when I read when I needed help, I reached out to peer support, and peer support said, Hey, you should go to first responder wellness. And this is a guy who's 40 years old, living at home in his parents' basement, already lost his wife and his kids, was drinking every day to his admission. When he wasn't at work, he was drinking every minute he wasn't at work and half the time showing up to work drunk, but nothing ever happened. You know, never no discipline, nothing like that. Um, but he reached out for help and peer support was right there to help him. But then it went up the chain of command and he gets a call from his chief of police, and the chief spends 45 minutes telling him, Don't go to treatment, it's gonna embarrass yourself, it's gonna embarrass me, the chief, it's gonna embarrass the department, and it's gonna ruin your career. And so this guy thankfully decides because he's like, I'd be dead. If it weren't for this, I'd be dead. I would have either died in a collision, I would have just done something stupid, whatever, but I'd be dead. And uh, so he was here getting help, right? And so I'm thinking, geez, you know, you talked about from a leadership responsibility, because that's what a lot of leaders forget, you know, that that's what leadership is. It's a responsibility, you know, it's not some glamorous thing. Um that, and then compare it with another example, another person here who just voluntarily said, Hey, you know, yeah, I'm here. I went to my peer support team. Um, I was struggling, but no discipline involved. So he goes to peer support, and peer support was like, Hey, you know what? You need to go to first responder wellness. And this guy's like, Yeah, fine. They finally convince him, I'll go, but I need a week or a week and a half because I live alone. I need someone to walk my uh to take care of my dog. Yeah, yeah, mow my lawn when I'm gone, take my trash cans in and out. So, similar thing goes up through their chain of command to their chief who said, So we got it, he's going tomorrow. And if need be, I'll take care of his dog. I'll mow his lawn, I'll take his trash in and out. We'll figure it out. And this chief happens to be a buddy of mine.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

And the time after I saw him, you know, without breaking confidentiality at all, I was just like, You're a good man, you know, because it changes the face of how hundred percent wellness looks like. It's not a policy, it's not something written on the wall, it's not the cat poster that says hang in there. Yeah, it's legitimate. It is people helping people survive a very difficult career. And so those are the things that really stood out to me, to where it changed my mindset, to where I always saw wellness, peer support, all these things is hey, those are cool extras. If we can afford it, if we have time, if we have people, we'll do some of those cool things. Yeah. To where now I see it, it's the foundation. Yeah, right. That's how we should look at recruitment, retention. That's how we should look at promotions, that's how we should look at training. There it is. And how is it affecting our people in the long term? Um, and that's what I share with chiefs and you know, primarily chiefs, fire chiefs, sheriffs, is like this has changed my perspective. You can take it for what it's worth, but this was my experience. I only wish I knew all this when I was still working as a chief because I would have done, would I have done things differently? Absolutely. I think we did things well, but we didn't we could have done so much better.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:01

And when you know more, you have to do more. And one of those things where it's like, you know, there are there is help out there. You know, this is the backstop. You know, this is for the people that need this level of help, but there's all these things to do along the way, all these proactive measures we should be doing to make sure people can survive this career and thrive, like you said, not survive, but thrive. You know, they should be going home and having great weekends with their kids and you know, enjoying their spouses, you know, all these different things. It shouldn't just be hanging in there.

unknown 1:11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

No, and that's a great way to put it, you know, and it's yeah, I get that experience all the time too, you know, and it's unfortunate for the departments that maybe don't have the knowledge or don't support it in the ways that they they need to, um, versus the ones that do. It's the biggest difference in how people uh succeed or don't succeed here. Some people, you know, in spite of, right, they realize that, you know, whatever the department is gonna do, they're gonna do or not do, I'm not gonna worry about that. I'm gonna burn my time, I'm gonna pay my money, I'm gonna do what I need to do for the benefit of my myself and my family. Um it's a little more difficult for those guys, you know, than the guys who are like, nope, you know, the department figures out how to get them on paid admin leave, they figure out how to walk the dog, take care of whatever they need to take care of. They're involved, you know, they're they're talking with them while they're here, um, they're getting reports back and forth, you know, and so that makes such a huge impact on them, you know, because one of the biggest things, and you know this, right? Like one of the biggest things is, you know, am I gonna have my job?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

And when the department is saying, listen, I'm not telling you yes or no, but what I'm telling you is take care of yourself and we'll figure that out. Or absolutely take care of yourself, the job's here when you're here when you get here. You know, unfortunately, some of these guys end up here as a disciplinary thing where they have things going on, so the department can't say, You get your jobs here guaranteed. They're like, listen, this is the best step in you know, in doing what you can to to keep it. We don't know. Uh, versus the departments, like you said, don't be an embarrassment to yourself, don't be an embarrassment to your department. You know, there are departments that have said, if you go there, we will terminate you. And it's like it's hard to believe that that kind of stuff still happens. Um, but you know, I think we're I think we're in a much better time. And you know, I hear you say, you know, had I known better, I would have done better, and I don't doubt that, but don't oversee the position that you're in now and the impact that you're you're having and will have, and especially on on the people that you're able to to converse with, you know, um you guys speak your own language, you know, and even you know, I mean, your first responder is different, right? But as you go upward, chiefs and and such that I mean, there's a difference in what you guys deal with and how you talk and how you converse and and the understanding of what is necessary to you know to be uh good at your jobs as well as to you know do right by your people. Yeah. And so it it's really good to hear you say that you know, you see it now as the foundation, and you can let these guys know, you know, hey, that this is the foundation of and I I love the fact like and I tell people this all the time listen, take the human aspect out of it, right? Just let's just take the human aspect out of it for a minute. As a department, right, would you not want to protect your investments, exactly, right? And get retention out of the do you not want them to stay longer and be healthier for longer periods of time? I'm not even talking about the human aspect at this point, right? I'm just talking about a sheer numbers thing, right? Whether that be you know retention in employment versus money and all of that stuff. Like the numbers, right? It's easy, yeah. Now add in the human aspect. Exactly. Don't you want to do right by the people? That's right. And then when you put those two things together, it's difficult for me to go, how do you say no to that? It's a no-brainer. How do we still put a stigma on? And I get it. I mean, I do I understand it, but it's difficult because they go, you're stigmatizing your very own your yourself and your very own people with that language. And it's like, you know, I get it. The the public is gonna do what the public is gonna do, and you know, who, you know, oh the this guy's unstable and this, that, and the other. Whatever, right? We'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

But it's gotta start from the inside. And you fight with numbers with numbers, right? It's like what's you know, what percentage of the general population goes to treatment, should be going to treatment, right? Let's compare that with the number of first responders. It's still minuscule in comparison, right? So don't play that game with us that oh, they went to treatment, so they're no longer fit. No, they're probably more fit than they were before they went, and we weren't even saying they were unfit when they went. Yeah. So, you know, that's part of the thing, too, is explaining that to folks. And like you said, I have this conversation with chiefs and sheriffs all the time about hey, it doesn't matter. I don't care if you're a great person and you want to help your person because you're a good guy or a good girl and they need your help and you're gonna help them no matter what. Awesome. Yeah, that's primary. Thank you very much. Or if you just look at the numbers, you know, to get a police officer, you know, the six-month process to hire one, the six-month process to background them, the six-month process in the academy, the six-month process on FTO, you know, we're almost at seven figures now.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

Now. And then if you put five, six, seven, eight years after that, yeah, you're millions of dollars. Yeah, that's an investment your community has made in that individual. One, one, one. So you're telling me, you know, you're not gonna take, you know, 60, 90 days and send them to treatment for injuries that they sustained on the job. On the job. Because, you know, remember you did a psych back here. Remember, you did a psych. So you already said that they were, you know, sufficient to do this job. So now if they're not, you have to ask yourself why. Why? What happened? Exactly. What happened? Oh, I don't know. You know, so it's one of those things where sometimes they just don't realize because most of us, like my generation of policing, you saw anyone with PTSD, two things happened. They took their badge and their gun and they kicked them out the door. They got medically retired, yeah. Right. Or the person went off the rails and they got fired or asked to leave. That was it. Those were the solutions. And if you know, unfortunately, organizationally, it looked like, hey, who cares? Right. There's hundreds of people lined up to take that job. There you go. That doesn't exist anymore. No, no, and you're not fishing from the same pond. No, you know, now you know the the hiring pool is a puddle, and so everybody's trying to fish out of the same little puddle. You know, you look just look at the um hiring bonuses, you know, a hundred thousand dollars for a local agency, a hundred thousand. Yeah, you know, that screams desperation, right? That we have desperate departments trying to find people. So this is the ultimate retention tool. So if you have somebody who needs it, this is how you retain that person. And you're retaining a veteran and you're retaining somebody who's probably gonna go through this and then be an advocate of all the other people in your department, a huge asset to all of those people, yeah, to get help back here.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

When they don't need even this level of treatment.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

You know, I was so impressed. You know, Dr. Odom told me one time, he's like, you know, our goal really is to shut this place down because no first responders need this level of treatment. You know, and he always says, follows that with, well, as long as people have parents, we'll always need a treatment center. As a parent, I've, you know, yeah, it's true. Um, but uh, you know, that is the primary goal, right? Because I always said, hey, if we do policing well enough, we don't need police. It's the same idea. Are we gonna get there? No. But it's the way you want to work this whole thing. So do those proactive measures to keep people out of here. You're gonna have your department healthier all along the way. And you're gonna avoid those multimillion dollar lawsuits, you're gonna avoid the embarrassment, you're gonna avoid tormenting your staff. You know, there is a value to you, hopefully, as a chief or as executive staff member, to avoid to knowing that you're avoiding your staff going through these struggles that they don't have to necessarily. I mean, the job is the job and it's gonna be difficult, but it doesn't mean they have to really struggle the whole way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

And that's a great way to put it. You know, as we kind of wrap this thing up, if there's anybody out there, you know, in a leadership position, I mean, I know we covered a lot, but is there any one or two specific things that you might say to them that could potentially change the course of how they see things and how they see the treatment of mental health for their people?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:38

Yeah, I mean, the one thing is know about your resources before you need them. You know, and you know, one of those things is to come tour this place, right? And you know, the invitation is out there. We bring people out all the time to come and tour at our expense. And it is so important because you have to have this in your back pocket because you know, this is that ultimate backstop that you have to have ready when the bell rings. And so you never want to be, you know, as a chief, I know all of you the same, right? You know, nobody wants to be looking like they're building the plane while you're flying it. It's embarrassing as a leader. So having this stuff ready, having the policy ready, the path ready for when somebody needs it, because somebody will. It's not it's not a matter of if you're gonna need it, it's just when and whether you're ready or not. Um, so please, you know, come check us out. Um there are very few resources like this. I mean, you know, it's one of these things, it's very unique. Um, you know, this isn't a sales pitch, but this is a unique resource. And you know, if your people need this, they need it. Um, it's just it's so important to have that ready at the you know, at the drop of a hat when you need it. So investigate your resources. We are here as a resource, right? You know, whether you are having people come here or not, um, you know, I'm sure we can put up my contact information, reach out. I love to have conversations. I talk to chiefs all the time just about other resources along the way, proactive resources to keep people out of here, right? You know, about doing training, about having counseling services available, doing crisis intervention along the way. Yeah. Um, so many things to keep your people healthy and just, you know, and take care of them, you know, because there are not hordes of people looking for first responder careers. You know, when I found out fire departments were having a hard time hiring, yeah. I mean, that's when you're really you really know it's a crisis at that point. Oh, yeah. Um, because they they were doing well long after police was struggling. Sure. And so it's one of those things where you know you just you got to take care of the ones that you've got and show the people who are thinking about this career that you have these resources on hand because they're looking. You know, these Gen Zers are looking for the organizations that have a package ready to help them throughout their career. And so it really becomes a recruitment bonus um to have these things at the ready. So beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

That's beautifully said. So you know, as the the landscape of policing has changed, uh our hopes are so is it so is the outlook on mental health, you know, and that we have the resources that we can be a resource. So from Neighborhood Watch to Chief of Police, Chris Catron, I really appreciate taking the time to be here today. And you know, it it I think we've learned a lot, and I think it's gonna be very beneficial to a lot of people. So we appreciate the time. All right. Absolutely. That's all we have here today, ladies and gentlemen. As always, don't let this the stigma keep you sick and stay resilient.