SPEAKER_03 0:00

Chris, your book, American Hope, What Pope Leo XIV means for the church and for the world is, of course, utterly timely. And it is a wonderful admixture of reportage and analysis and your own personal insight. My question is a simple one, and that is this book would have uh was delivered um at magnum speed, all right? It's like a NASCAR, and you're all of a sudden you've got the book out and um generating a great deal of conversation about a greatly interesting and compelling figure. How did it come about? Did your um publisher and CNN say, well, you gotta get this book out real quick, or how did you manage to successfully put together a book in such um a limited period of time?

SPEAKER_04 0:54

Well, well, thank you, Michael, uh, for this invitation and for being with you. Um and the answer is uh a mixture of good editors and um just uh trying to write it uh as swiftly uh as possible, given that you know, when a new pope is elected, there's obviously uh a lot of interest from the publishing world, and there's I think broadly speaking two waves of books. There's the ones that are written very, very quickly after a new pope's election. You know, mine wasn't in that uh tranche of books. Um I took about uh five to six months to write this uh this book, and uh it came about really through some conversations with a publisher um who approached me uh to write the book. And you know, I said, look, I I'm I'm not I can't turn this round you know in three weeks. I I'm gonna need you know some months to do it. But yes, even though there are people who've written books on the pipe more quickly than me, um it did require a lot of concentration and to turn it around very quickly. And obviously, I'm aware that you know I I will uh need to do some updates because you know that the Leo story is a is a moving target and it's uh developing very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

The um did you draw on your own work, the earlier work, the outsider in terms of your um uh approach?

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Yes, I might I I mean that a lot of um uh of the book is um some of my you know previous reporting things you know that I had in the back of my notebook over a number of years. So, you know, the first part of the book really looks at um who Pope Leo is and the conclave that elected him, the significance of that. And then I do go into the big reform questions and the other uh big challenges that Leo has to face. Uh, and I do that you know through some of the background reporting that I already uh have done. So I was able to draw on that, and that did help me um you know write the book a bit more quickly than perhaps someone coming to it totally from outside uh would have been able to do. And I do also have a uh an epilogue in the book that looks at the whole rise uh of interest in the Catholic Church from young people. So I'd also draw on on some kind of newer reporting there.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

But yeah, just before we move on to Charlie here, um you've been you are now CNN Vatican correspondent, and you were before the Vatican correspondent or Rome correspondent for the tablet. That would have given you an ideal positioning, right? To be able to see the goings-on, the schemings, the plottings, the intriguing, colourful personalities and everything else that make up the reality of contemporary, indeed, ancient Rome. So uh the insights in your book are very helpful because they they coalesce, they help to create a portrait of a moving target, right? Charlie, now Charlie is coming in from your neck of the woods, actually, in the time zone. He's in uh County Cary, Dingo County Cary at Sacred Arts um um dingo campus and uh uh uh John Moriarty Institute for Spirituality and Ecology. So he's on the same time zone as you. So, Charlie, come right in with your first uh comment.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Perfect. Chris, thank you so much for being with us. We're really fortunate to be able to talk with you because I do think that Michael set up the importance of your book really well. And I'm just a follow-up on what you just mentioned about the young people and Pope Leo, which is why do you think there's such a fascination with the Pope? And why do you think it's particular in this moment with Pope Leo? And I know that there's a kind of high-level head of a global religion. Of course, the Pope is important, but you have some keen insights for us that I think can start to open up why we are still talking about this in wider culture, even a year after the conclave and the election.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

Yes, I mean, I think that's a that's a good question, uh, Charlie. And I think, you know, this Pope has been able to connect, particularly with the US and the English-speaking world, because of course he speaks English as a mother tongue. He speaks it with the Midwestern accent, and uh his message therefore resonates in a way that I think other popes struggled um to get that connection. Uh, and you know, previous popes were when they spoke in English, were doing so uh obviously as a second or third language, or they were being translated or interpreted. So I think the English is a big factor here, and I think that it's a sense that he's a pope that people can relate to, um, you know, because of his his own story coming from Chicago, uh, then of course spending many years in Peru. I mean, if you were to sort of um look for the ideal CV for a Pope, you know, Pope Leo the 14th would would tick a lot of boxes, you know, global leadership, experience in different parts of the world, and of course, in his uh two years before election, um, working in the Vatican at that important uh office for the appointment of bishops. So I think it's it's it's Leo, but also I think the other thing that's interesting people is is the the the world that we're living in at the moment, the the increased uncertainty, the conflicts, people looking to a moral leader, a statesmanlike figure. There's a there's a hunger for that, and I think people are uh focusing on Leo at this time, um, given what's going on in the world. And that's part of the reason why I I titled the book uh that that I did, American Hope.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Michelle, coming in from our uh campus here in Fairfield.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

I'm right here in Connecticut and welcome. And it's really an honor to have you here. Um and I loved your book. I loved how you brought us into the hallways of the conclave and gave us not just an insightful but really an intimate connection to our first American Pope, really, as you were saying. Um and I think that is why young people they're connecting with his authenticity, his simplicity, his moral voice, which they are hungry for, despite the fact that they may be spiritual but not religious, they are hungry for that. And um, and you situated him as that spiritual counterweight to Trump, which I think is something else that is so attractive. You were even prescient about his uh encyclical on AI, which we're waiting for eagerly. But I do have my question is you you were talking about him as um in some ways like Paul VI was to John the XXIII, and his task is to um make real, uh bring to reality this ecclesial vision. Um, and of course the task is large, and I have multiple questions, but let me just focus on this one, that he has to be in serious discussion about how lay people can be brought more into governance of the church. And, you know, this is such a complicated church, right? It's its plurality, its polarization is undisputable. But um, how do you think he's he will be able to do that, especially when there's a code of canon law that sort of prohibits the lay people to being just kind of helpers, not really governing the church? So how do you think that will happen?

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Well, I I think that's a great question, Michelle, and I think you put your finger on, you know, I've I think one of the big reform issues in the Catholic Church at this uh moment, and that is the role of lay people in leading and governing uh in the church. And as you say, the way that canon law is set out, uh is it in canon one two nine that is it you know, for some people too restrictive when it comes to lay people's roles. I think, first of all, Pope Lidio is well placed to address some of these questions. He is, of course, a canon lawyer, um, he has uh a doctorate from the Angelicum uh in canon law, mainly about um the the the leadership within uh or leadership within the Augustinian order, which of course he led for many years. Um but you know, I I read his thesis or parts of his thesis for the book, and you know, he does address some of these questions uh about lay leadership, or we should say non-ordain leadership in the church. And I think he is, as a leader, someone who I think he can be effective because A, as he has got that knowledge of canon law, and B, he is someone who is trying to bring everyone together to go in the same direction. That's not very easy, as you as you mentioned your question. There's of course huge diversity and many disagreements within the Catholic Church. But I mean, Pope Francis was a disruptor and he came up against a lot of opposition in his reforms, whereas Pope Leo is much more of a consolidator, someone who can bring people together. So I think he is well placed to try and make some significant reforms or some significant steps when it comes to uh lay leadership in the church. I mean, he in Peru had lay people in senior positions when he was a bishop there, so he's used to operating in that way, but I still think it remains to be seen. I mean, we are only one year in. His first year has been very much uh taking his time to adjust, to listen, to learn. We haven't seen anything hugely dramatic uh in on on the reform questions. Um, but uh as I say, I think he is well placed to take things forward, and I think he'll do that step by step.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Thank you. Coming in from New York.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Okay, so um uh to your point about nothing dramatic, we did get something slightly dramatic this morning with Cardinal Fernandez's letter to the uh SSPX, uh, which seems to be uh ramping things up there. I want to connect that though to a more subtle uh thing that happened yesterday, that I want to connect into a specific passage in your book. So uh yesterday there was a little bit of discourse about the forthcoming edited volume of Pope Leto's pre-papal writings from the Libraria Editrice Vaticana, which notably is omitting a speech that he gave in 2012 to the Synod of Bishops, um, criticizing the Western media for promoting. Uh you might have seen your colleague Francis Rocca was out there talking about this. Um, and uh I want to connect that uh because that that speech had been um highlighted by a lot of conservatives who wanted to uh place Leo as a kind of corrective to the unfortunate Cesura of Francis's papacy, right? Um I want to connect that to your uh this passage on page 113 of the American Edition Um that I've quoted to a number of people um about Leo and Francis, where you say, ironically, while many perceived Francis as a liberal, his instincts were quite conservative, but he moderated by being bold and radical. Leo, on the other hand, has more progressive instincts, but moderates moderates by seeing the conservative point of view. Um, so I want to I want to connect that and and ask you to elaborate a little bit more on that because I think that what you said there, I think is I agree with, but I think seems quite counterintuitive to some people.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah. Well, uh thank thank you, Dan, for for highlighting that passage because I do think that's an important um part of of the book, and it is counterintuitive. And I I made that point because look, I'm I've observed Leo's background, his his formation, and how he has operated as a leader. That's how I that's where I'm getting the evidence for that observation. And and you know, he studied at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago after the Second Vatican Council. He studied alongside women who felt called to ordination. He has been exposed to progressive reforms and the progressive reforming impulses within the Catholic Church in a way Pope Francis never was. And I I do uh argue um you know in the book that you know Pope Francis, I think, was instinctively quite conservative by background, by his his formation, and you know, I think just who he was, but I think he did have this bold and radical side, and I think he was he was aware of the the perhaps more conservative instincts. He once talked about his own temptation towards nostalgia once, which I thought was very interesting. Uh but he he moderated that, and I think that's what we saw in Francis Leo. I think, you know, as I say, he's been exposed to uh so much of uh the Catholic Church that was seeking to reform and renew straight after the Second Vatican Council. He's been in Latin America, where of course the council was really taken up and implemented. He's seen the the prophetic church in that part of the world, he's part of that, and and I think he does have an understanding and an awareness of um people's uh in the church, the more progressive instincts of some in the church to to uh reform and renew. But I think he is very good at listening to the other side. Now, I think the difference between Francis, uh I should say not the other side, but all sides. The difference between Francis and Leo is that with Francis you you kind of sense that what he thought or felt about something was very that was very important. Whereas with Leo, you don't necessarily know what he really thinks about some things, but maybe that's not so important either, and that's his leadership. Um he is inscrutable, but I do I do maintain that you know some of the things he's said, whether it's you know, he was asked about women deacons, for example, he didn't say no, he said we can only make a decision on that if we can do X or Y. You know, he's he's mentioned the phrase LGBTQ or LGBT. Francis never said that. So I think he has an awareness and an understanding of these issues in a way that Francis Francis didn't. So that that's why I made that point in the book.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

You know, you covered um the Francis pontificate for many years, and your book, The Outsiders, is about Francis. Let's just for a brief moment, because you talk about this in terms of the differences and the linkages between the Francis sensibility and the uh Leo sensibility. I want to ask you this. Um one of the sense I have of Francis is that he went out of his way, partly by nature of his personality, perhaps some of it intentionally, to demystify the papacy, to give the papacy a human face. I um I detect in Leo a slightly different direction. He seems inordinately interested in um the public signs, symbols, vesture of an older pontificate. Now, this may or may not just be a matter of taste, but in my sense is that style is substance. So where do you think that departure is going to lead us? Is he going to begin a slow methodical process of, in a sense, re-clericalizing the church? Because one of his strengths, and it is a strength, that as a the provincial of the order, or the head of the order, uh he's gone out of his way to provide ample support for clerics, uh, particularly who felt bludgeoned and misabused abused and misunderstood for so long. So he builds up the morale. And of course, he lives uh with a cohort of friars, and he's loved being, I think, the head of the Augustinian order. Uh sharp difference from Francis during his tenure as a provincial. So do you do you see uh a direction here um sharply different from from Francis? Or do you think that this is just a matter of Leo continuing to find the direction that he most wants to you know seal with his pontifical voice? What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Well, you know, I I don't necessarily think that style is substance. Um, I think he does have a different style uh to Francis, but I think he does substantively want to continue the Francis reforms and priorities. Uh, but I think you're right though that um it is noticeable that that the difference in style uh between Leo and Francis when it comes to, I think with with Leo, more formality, more consciousness of what a Pope should and shouldn't do. Um you could say more uh concern about um uh elements of the office, how it's portrayed to the public. You know, we see him you know wearing the red mosetta, you know, certain styles uh that he is um uh showing and using uh as Pope. And I think that is because I think he has a more formal style, bluntly. Uh, and I and I think he is much more aware of what a Pope should and shouldn't do. Um, whereas I think Francis didn't have that. I think he was much more um in a way uh willing to break with certain protocols and styles and tradition. And that was that was that was Francis. So where that is taking us, um I I don't know exactly, but I think what what Leo probably does want to do is sort of give more of a sense within the church of of what is possible and what isn't possible, you know. And I think if you look at the kind of reforms, I think he's going to try and put more concrete shape around some of the things Francis started with. Um but I I I don't think just because he is a has a more formal style as Pope, that means he's not going to be a prophetic voice, or he's not going to take important decisions.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Um certainly are seeing some indication of that already, aren't we?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Yeah, yes, and and we saw that in Africa, he was being very bold. And I I I think his experience and time in in Peru is is is is crucial um to his leadership as well.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Okay. Um the panel. Now, Charlie, do you have something you want to follow up on?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Um Michelle's been wanting to come in, so well, I have a question that piggybacks a little bit on what you were saying, Michael, and and really it's just pages from what Dan was quoting. Clearly, Leo, is all the things that you said. And um, you know, he's a bridge builder, he's listen, he's certainly a listener, but he is besieged, as you point out in your book, um, despite his progressive inner attitudes. He's besieged by progressive groups, conservative groups, and one of the You said was um the risk is that his pontificate ends up in the middle of the road getting knocked around by these major groups, uh somewhere on page 116. And um, do you think that really will happen with Leo?

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Uh I think it's a risk, but I I I think that he is actually very uh professional in the way that he is holding uh different elements in the church together. And uh, you know, uh as I say in the book, there's always a risk if you um, you know, understand or listen to all the sides and try and take on board everyone's point of view. There is that risk of being caught in the middle of things, it's essentially what I was saying there. But I think with Leo, his desire to uh uh uh emphasize unity and consensus, that doesn't mean paralysis, that doesn't mean you know going nowhere. That you know, he he he does want the church um to communicate its message to uh the world. He wants uh he doesn't want the church to retreat into a kind of you know internal discussions. Um so I mean I I I think as I've said uh also in the book that and the narrative to a papacy is very important, and you know, Francis was uh brilliant in the first hours really after his election, setting the narrative for his papacy that never really shifted. Um Leo I think uh has started more slowly and he's building that narrative. Uh and I think he's he's certainly had I think a pretty successful first year, but there's always that uh uh I think challenge of for any papacy to make sure that that that the narrative is being communicated. And I th I think he does need to work probably, and he you know, he might he, I think, would probably say this on how does the Vatican communicate? I think that's something that he will be looking at.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Charlie. Yeah, um this discussion's really interesting to me because if we think about Coraclesia, this podcast you're joining us for, as a trying to reflect upon what's going on in the church and the world, coming out of Sacred Heart University, which we're all representing various continents and places and time zones in this conversation, you got this symbol of the unity of an organization that spans the globe. And you title your book about hope. And this is connected to what we're talking about, which is one of the fun things for a journalist with Francis is you never know what he's gonna do next. And if one of Pope Leo's first lessons as Pope is actually the reminder that as Catholics, there is a sense of a distinction between office and person, even in our lay vocations in marriage and family life. There are things we do because of the form of life that we're habituated to. And that's one way to read some of the formalities of Pope Leo is a reminder, not a correction, but a we got the swing of the pendulum with Francis. And now it's a sense of how do we not alienate those people who need form in order to move forward? That's my windup to go, well, is it gonna be tricky to follow Pope Leo when this guy knows diplomacy and speaks like a canon lawyer? Whereas if you think a secular lawyer is squidgy, go chat with a canon lawyer and see how it goes. And in light of writing your book, I'm I'm just wondering, Chris, what do we make of all this? How do you deal with it?

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Well, uh I you know, I think you make a really good point about how to understand the formality um with which Leo is is approaching the office. I think that's a really uh insightful, um insightful point. Uh, and I think that's probably true for him. Um and I suppose your your your question is how how how is how is he going to actually practically manage to uh be a pope who has a compelling uh story, uh reforms, etc., whilst also trying to balance everything else out. Yeah, and I mean I I think from what I can see at the moment, Leo, I think I think he wants to communicate uh the church as a place of stability amidst the chaos. I think that's something he wants is important to him. And I think you know, he also, and this is interesting. Um he said earlier on, you know, I'm not here to try and solve all the problems of the world, you know, I want to confirm people in the faith. And I wonder if what we're gonna see with Leo a bit, and this obviously speaks to the theological debates about the role of the papacy, maybe we'll see a pope more as the mediator, convener, the the person who resolves issues, rather than the pope as always the protagonist. And I think he does want to allow bishops and church leaders, particularly in the US, to take the lead. He wants bishops in the US to be the the main spokes uh people on uh on immigration. Obviously, you have cardinals um Supich, Tobin, and McElroy speaking on the war. So I I wonder if there's also that style of leadership with with Leo that it's that it's reducing him always being in the headlines and also allowing the bishops to to come forward. Um and of course, that's quite tricky because people all want, everyone wants to know what Leo thinks, and there's obviously always gonna be a lot of focus on him. But I think I think his his style of leadership as Pope is going to be one that is, I think, trying to give more impetus to the bishops and cardinals. So that may be one way he tries to navigate the tension that you you articulate.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Well, I think your insight about um Leo's mediator, Popus Mediator, is very helpful because this may in fact be the one of the defining qualities or features of the Leonine papacy, certainly as we begin it. Dan, would you want to uh wade in now?

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Sure. So I want to segue out of what uh Chris was talking about in terms of the American bishops um and connect it uh to another uh point that you alluded to briefly earlier with Michelle's question, but I want to focus it a little more, and that's this question of opposition, right? So um as Michelle's question pointed out, there's a lot of advocacy in the church, right? And that's always going to be the case. Uh with Francis from the get-go, but especially starting um a year, a few years in with the Synod on the Family and the blowback from that, uh, there was a lot of concerted opposition, much of it coming from the United States. Uh now with Leo, um, I really appreciated in your book how you connected the dots um it about the way that the Sotolitsium Christiane Vite, um, its um kind of diehards, uh particularly people who have experience in the archdices of Denver in the United States, right, um, were kind of at the head of opposition to Cardinal Prevos in the conclave, um, and have also quietly been kind of oppositional during um his pontificate. I thought it was interesting. Shortly after your book came out, J.D. Flynn, uh who wrote the piece on the pillar before the conclave, again came out with a piece uh accusing Leo of pushing too far in terms of taking Catholic teaching on war and peace toward pacifism, uh, which was one of the most concerted criticisms of Leo from someone who, you know, is more than just kind of like a you know, kind of right-wing columnist in a newspaper or whatever, right? Somebody who's trying to be a serious Catholic commentator. Um, now that's it's a slightly different center of opposition uh from Francis, right? Where the kind of traditionalist right was out of the gate, uh always critical of him. We may see some of that now with Leo at the SSPX. But so to bring it back, I mean, we're we're seeing the American bishops, I think, falling a bit more in line, uh, partially because bishops write, um, you know, this is the rest of their life, essentially, most likely. Um, but what do you see in terms of do you see the kind of concerted opposition coalescing that Francis had, or do you see a more um united church behind the Pope?

SPEAKER_04 30:52

Yeah. No, I think that's a fascinating uh question, and I think sure, certainly, the opposition that Francis faced, Leo is not facing in the same way. Yes, I clearly, and Leo has I think a real gift of, as I've said, being a unifier, a mediator, but also I think being able to uh communicate a sense of peace and put people uh feeling a sense of peace when they're when they're with him. Whereas I think you know Francis was much more of a disruptor challenging people uh and therefore stoking a lot of the opposition. Um but I I think you know my answer is you know, time will tell. I mean, you know, we've got we had you know straight after Leah's election, some people claiming that he was uh a supporter of the traditional Latin mass um and that he would roll back Francis' ruling on that. I think the longer that goes on, that he doesn't do anything massively uh substantial um on that area, I think the frustration's bound bound to grow. I think the the thing about the opposition though is interesting because the the opposition to Francis remains even after his death. And the I think that the difficulty for people who opposed Francis to also oppose Leo is that the argument is from the opposition to Francis is that Francis was the anomaly, you know, Francis was the tradition breaker, Leo is the tradition restorer. So they've got to try and continue to argue that that Leo will um undo Francis. And I suppose there won't be, I wouldn't think, major opposition to Leo unless they can see the strong evidence that um he is going to, you know, that that sorry, unless they see evidence that he is not going to undo what they see as the problems of of Francis. So uh having said that, I think um there is obviously, and I think since the Trump attack on Leo, um first of all, that did I think galvanize a lot of Catholics behind the Pope, but also the war you know has seen that criticism, as you say, Dan, about um just war theory. Uh I think the opposition to Leo is likely to build uh if he doesn't do what some of the groups want him to do. Um I mean happy to come back for you to come back on that if you think um I'm off beam at all, but I I just I don't see the level of opposition to Leo as uh as I saw uh against Francis, um, partly because of how Leo is, partly because of his efforts to try and um I think spend time and talk to the the critics of Francis. I mean it's quite you know interesting how he has met so many of those who were very opposed to Francis. He's he's sat down and talked to them. Um, although, as I say, you know, listening is not the same as agreeing.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah. You know, I have an ancillary question in in relation to this. And I suppose perhaps this is what we see all the time when there's a change of leadership, whether it's in the spiritual realm or whether it's in the temporal realm. But I've been surprised by the number of um critics of Francis who were Francis friendly, um, um, and who now look at Francis and talk about him and oh, yes, he wasn't very collegial, his cool grasp of synodality lacks the sophistication of Leo. Leo was much more, as you indicated earlier, a welcome consolidator. In other words, there seems to be a flood of criticism of Francis coming from the hitherto progressive pro-Francis side. Now, is this just you think the standard cycle, the new cycle, that when a new figure comes in, you begin to chip away at the image of the old one as you try to reconcile with the new emerging reality? Or is this just uh the pathology of the paparazzi? You just uh you look and you say, okay, well, he's gone. Now he wasn't really as good as we thought he was. Is is there a kind of do you do you sense a cycle of revisionism going on, uh, Chris?

SPEAKER_04 35:39

I I don't think so. I I think you know, whenever a Pope dies or resigns, there's always a an assessment. I think that's part of it. You know, there's an honest assessment going on. Um, I mean, I think I'm talking here about those who may have been seen as Francis friendly who are now being offering critiques. I think that's probably, you know, in many ways, just an honest assessment of what happened uh under Francis. I mean, Leo wouldn't be Pope were it not for Francis, and I think we forget how much Francis did in 13 years to change the conversation, to uh take the church in a in a in a in a new direction. So I think Francis did so much of the you know the kind of the heavy lifting, you could say, for for Leo. Um I think of course there are efforts for revisionism as well, uh, amongst people who I think they they they want everyone to forget certain things about Francis's papacy. I'm sure that that you know that's also going on as well.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Okay, let's quit wrap it up now. Um we'll go one more round here and uh we'll start with Charlie, then Michelle, and then Dan as we bring to an end this uh engaging animated conversation. Wonderful to have you with us, Chris. Yeah, I just have one more thing to say, and that is is there another book on the horizon?

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Well, I I think there'll be um a paperback version that will have a few updates and then uh let's see how things um develop. I'm you know, we the the Pope is uh 70 years old, so he's going to be uh in office for for several years, we hope. So um there could well be another book, but nothing imminently planned other than the updated uh paperback edition.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, Charlie.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Thank you so much for being with us today. I wish we had more time to talk, so instead I'll just ask a kind of fun one, which is in all the research and writing that you had to do in a condensed amount of time, what was one of the most surprising things you uncovered about Poblio for you?

SPEAKER_04 37:55

Uh, that's a very good question. Um I think I think for me what was surprising was uh speaking to uh one of his um former uh uh confrares or students uh at the Catholic Theological Union, who really set out what it was like at that time, um, the kind of the firmament of reform and debate and change going on in the Catholic Church. And I think he really set out what those years must have been like for Leo. And that made me kind of understand that Leo does, I think, um, really have a grasp of so many different parts of the church. Yes, the reforming elements of it, but also we I I knew him as someone who had been in Rome and had been in Latin America. I hadn't really grasped you know what it was like in Chicago at the Catholic Theological Union during that period of time. And that really was uh a surprising and and and striking insight for me.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Very helpful. Michelle.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

So uh again, I I want to reiterate thank you, thank you, thank you so much. It's really been an honor. Um so Mike, Mike, at one point in the book you you say um that Leo is a lion who will know, who knows how to roar. I I and um and I actually personally I think he did that Holy Week when he was speaking so much against war and violence, and that, and you know, the three cardinals on 60 Minutes, and then that of course just erupted uh Trump's responses. But when do you think um what do you think are some of the upcoming things that will necessitate this lion to roar? For example, he's got the German bishops who want a synodal church that is a little different than what he expects or wants. They want to ordain women. On the other hand, he's got the runaway Lefebvre bishops who are going to be ordained in July. When do you think this lion may roar again?

SPEAKER_04 40:11

Yeah, great, great question. I I mean I think it uh it depends on what happens in the world as well. I think I think he really feels very passionately about uh these wars, um, spit I mean passionately to speak out against them. I think uh what's going on in the world is it really you know weighs on him, and you know, he is a pope who really follows the news in a way that Francis didn't uh and neither did you know his predecessors. So I think he is aware of what's going on in in the world, and I think if there are more conflicts, if there are more things that he feels are injustices, I think he will continue to to speak out. Um so I think that's where we're really gonna see uh his voice um more vocal uh on the world stage. Uh I think um to your question about the internal debates, um I think he he is someone who you know what I what I uh understand, he is someone who takes his time before making decisions, but when some when a decision is made, it's final. Um so you know, I think he's not someone who rushes in to discipline or sanction, but he listens, and then when the time is right, he makes his move. And I think we're we're probably gonna see that with the we've seen with the Lefebvre, the statement today. I think you know he's gonna be quite firm on that. I mean, Second Vatican Council, there's obviously a red line for him. Um on the German church, well, you know, his answer on the plane from Africa, I thought was was quite instructive. You know, he said, look, we we we don't agree, or the Vatican doesn't agree with the proposals for formalized liturgical blessings of same-sex couples. But then he said, When the church is teaching about morality, people assume it's always sexuality. That's the most important thing. He said, Well, no, that's not the most important thing. There are other questions that are more important, such as justice and equality. And and I thought that was an example of of the lion who knows when to roar. Um, when he refrained that question subtly. So, you know, often it it these the the these uh interventions from him happen at uh at at different moments and in and you know surprising ways. That the the he's certainly the the gentle lion who knows when to roar, and somehow sometimes it's often you know when he's talking to journalists, yes, which the Vatican don't always like, they don't like those back of the plane press conferences, some people in the show. But he's gonna continue to do those and he's gonna continue to to talk to the media, and I think those are often the moments when he when he speaks out most clearly.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Yes. You can wrap it up for us.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Sure. So the the other the other thing that he said in that press conference on the plane, um, in addition to uh what you just quoted, was he said we can't go beyond what Francis said in Fiducia Suplicons right now. Uh I'm not quoting it exactly, but that's effectively what he said. Um, and that connects to some of the comments he made to Elise Allen about uh some other issues, which also coincidentally were related to uh sexuality and gender. I think they were about uh they may have been the women deacons and and related matters like that. Uh so I've been tracing this kind of temporal or developmental language um in Leo, which I think is interesting, especially because he also uh named John Herbert. Newman a doctor. Um, I'm wondering where you think do you think this is the uh again, some of the kind of CTU influence you were talking about, that he's somebody who's you know is able to see the kind of uh progressive arguments in a way that previous popes may have just been not sympathetic or interested in. Um, do you think it's his Augustinian background, where time is one of the key categories? Uh, where do you think that kind of language is coming from, which again is drastically different? I I said to a few people who thought um that those comments on the plane were you know fairly conservative coded. I said, could you imagine John Paul II saying that right now? Um where do you think that's coming from?

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Well, I think um part of it is that he is kind of immersed in the Catholic debates and conversations um online in a way that I don't think Francis was, or certainly John Paul II didn't exist in the same way under his time. But you know, if you look at you know the Robert Prevost X account, uh, which the Vatican has never confirmed was actually his or not, but you know, we're pretty sure it was definitely him. You know, he was engaged with Catholic media. He was he was reading uh National Catholic Reporter, uh, other Catholic media outlets, and he he was engaged with the the conversation. So I think that is that is part of it. Um, and I think you know, his answers, the answer on the plane to the German bishops was I think a classic Leo because you know he he he sort of put down the boundary line at first, you know, this is what we don't agree with, but then he kind of opened up uh and reframed the conversation, and I think that's kind of his that that's his modus operand, as far as I can see. So he doesn't want the big we say contested issues to become divisive or threatening to unity. That's his big red line, but he is open to discussion, development, debate, uh, in a way that you know we haven't seen so much. And of course, Francis was the one who's who who started a lot of the the discussions, but you know, Francis, for example, said we're gonna have a commission on women deacons, and then says to CBS News, no, we can't do it. Uh you know, twice so so Leo, I think, is saying, let's we've got to maintain unity, but we can be open and there can be debate and discussion. Uh, in and certainly maintaining unity doesn't mean doing nothing. I think that's what he's that that's that's very important to him. But yes, I mean to the point about him being an Augustinian, I think that there is a part of him that is possibly more critical of the culture, more someone who sees the church as um I think needing to critique some of the contemporary world. And I think to your point a few uh a while back about his 2012 speech to the synod uh of bishops, which mysteriously is not in the uh uh anthology of his lectures. I don't know why that is, but anyway, I think that there is that side to him as an Augustinian, you know, this the city of God and the earthly city and that that dialectic that that goes on. Um I thought it's interesting that that um a Norwegian bishop Erik Varden was asked to give the uh lectures uh for the Roman Curia, the the Lent and Retreat. And he is someone who I think Leo would would be interested in because he's you know he he's someone who understands the the the contemporary world, but he's also I would say uh uh has a more critical um posture. So um I think Leo, as I say, is I think an Augustinian who has been you know rooted in the Church of Latin America, in the progressive understanding of what it means to be the church of the ecclesiology of that of that region. Uh, and I think he he brings all of that plus the the CTU formation to the papacy, but as I say, he he is primarily concerned about keeping this unity and then opening up the discussions. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Okay, we got to wrap up here, Coraclesier. Um, I don't think Varden is going to be long for Trondheim, actually. I think we're gonna see some changes at that end. Um, anyway, uh we've had um for this session of Coraclesia, which actually was generally universal because we are in England and in Ireland and the United States and in Canada. So this is Coraclesier at its best. Um, this week's session is with Christopher Lamb. Christopher is the CNN Vatican correspondent, um, a writer and journalist, one-time uh Rome correspondent for the Tablet of London. And his new book, American Hope, is the book we've been discussing in the session. So thank you, Christopher. And I would remind the panelists that uh we'll probably see each other within a week as we anticipate the arrival of the folks' new encyclical. Thanks for watching, everyone. Take care.