A Steep Price to go up 3-1 PLUS Where do Jokic & Gobert Rank All-Time?

The Minnesota Timberwolves secured a dominant 112-96 victory over the Denver Nuggets to take a commanding 3-1 series lead. But as the old saying goes, "to whom much is given, much is required"—and the Wolves paid a heavy price at the Target Center.

Steve is joined by friend and fellow Wolves fanatic Jon Schley to break it all down. 

• The Injury Report: We break down the devastating loss of Donte DiVincenzo and the status of Anthony Edwards. Steve shares the latest updates on Ant's hyperextended knee, which thankfully shows no ligament damage but will likely sideline him for multiple weeks with a bone bruise.
• The Ayo Dosunmu Masterclass: With the stars sidelined, Ayo stepped into the void and dropped an "all-time" 43-point performance. We look at his incredible efficiency—5-for-5 from deep and 12-for-12 from the line—and how his downhill aggression is exactly what Denver can't stop.
• The Buzzer Fireworks: Jaden McDaniels scores a layup with one second left, and Nikola Jokić absolutely loses his cool. We discuss the ejections, the "villain era" of Jaden, and whether the Wolves are in the Nuggets' heads.
• The Big Talker: We dive into the legacy debate of the decade. Who ranks higher on their respective all-time list: Nikola Jokić as an offensive engine or Rudy Gobert as a defensive anchor?. We compare them against legends like Oscar Robertson, Pete Maravich, Michael Jordan, Draymond Green, Hakeem Olajuwon, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman to find the answer.

Listen now for the full breakdown of the most chaotic win in recent Wolves history!

Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or YouTube. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Bag in them, back in, back again. Whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Splash City Basketball Podcast, your go-to basketball podcast, where we're diving deep into the game of hoops and the teams that matter most right here in Minnesota and across the upper Midwest. I'm your host, Steve Hartman. Before we tip today's episode, I want to make sure you take a minute to follow Splash City Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, Blue Sky, and follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts like Apple, Spotify, and Amazon. And you can even listen on connected devices. I'm not sure whether to celebrate or check the injury report today. I've been closely monitoring the interwebs to follow along on the Anthony Edwards injury following game four. Timberwolves took a commanding 3-1 lead over the Nuggets, but it was a steep price to pay, losing Dante DiVincenzo to a season-ending Achilles tear, and the collective state of Minnesota is waiting on Anthony Edwards' knee. Sounds like it's a couple weeks minimum for a bone bruise and hyperextension. But Iodistumu to the rescue comes in with 43 points and really helped the Timberwolves take control in the second half. We'll talk about the fireworks at the buzzer with Jaden McDaniels and Nikola Jokic. And is Jaden McDaniels embracing the villain era of and our big talker today, bringing on my buddy John Schley, who brought this up to me over text last night. Who sits higher on their respective all-time list? Jokic amongst all-time great offensive players, or Rudy Gobert amongst all-time great defensive anchors like Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Bill Russell, Hakeem Elajuan. It's a great discussion, great topic. I'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments or in a review. But we'll get to all that and more in this episode of the Splash City basketball podcast. Game four, Western Conference first round playoffs, Timberwolves 112, Denver 96. We'll take a three-to-one lead, but there are so many things to talk about. Bringing on good friend John Schlei. John, thanks for jumping on the podcast with me. Awesome. Yeah. Happy to be here, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I've been a podcast, a fan of your podcast here for what, six months now you've been doing this?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Something like that, yeah. Something like that. Although this playoffs is making it feel like it's uh like three months uh alone, just the playoffs.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

But well, I I should probably come clean too, and I I probably should confess I have stolen a couple of your uh your takes off of the uh off your podcast and kind of passed them off of my own as uh with some buddies at work. So thank you for that. Making me sound smart.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Uh all good, man. All good. Uh shared thinking. Uh us Wolves fan, have we have lots to share in our uh misery for much of the time, but uh even last night we get a win, but we still have some misery, we still have some negatives to talk about. Um, you brought up an awesome talker, I thought. Uh, you texted me and you were like, hey, uh, who is a better player all time? Jokic offensively or go bear defensively. So we'll talk about that later, but I want to start with the game itself. Um, so much to talk about. Um, I don't even think I had sat down and started watching the game when Dante got hurt. That's how fast it happened. So within the first minute and a half, Dante goes down, ant goes down, end of the first half. Wolves are down, they're two uh starting guards, and they still come out come out with a win. Iodesumu game, uh Jaden Jokic going at it at the at the very end. Um what was your like if you had to like pick one thing that you're gonna remember about this game, is there is there one you want to start with?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I mean, I think I think the main headline has to be wolves go up 3-1, right? I mean, that's that's just the uh maybe not the most fun one, but that's that's the that's the end of the day. That's that's that's the that's the big news. Right. Other than that, I think it's it's gotta be Dante and Ant, number two for me. I mean, that even if they can they they they need to win one of the next three games, but if they even if they get past that, they without those two, it could be tough. I think you just kind of gave me the update on ant this morning here. It sounds like no ligament injury. Did what does that mean? Is that like two weeks then for a hyperextension, three weeks?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, it's in multiple weeks. I think um I think somebody I saw on social media mentioned that uh Giannis, I think, had a similar injury and he was back within a week. Uh, but they are they're saying a couple weeks, so he's got like a bone bruise. Um, I actually had, I mean, not that ant or anywhere near the same ability or physical prowess, but I had a hyperextended knee. Um, my uh was it my junior year of football? Junior or senior year of football, and I missed uh a week. I mean, it's swelled up bad. It's one of those super scary feelings, like you're just like, oh my god, it's it's gone. And and you know, the ACLs are usually like on twists and things like that. And so uh it sounds like it's just a bone bruise, no ligament damage. But um, yeah, man, we're gonna hope for the Blazers and Spurs to go six or seven for sure, just to kind of extend that time away. And if Ant, if Ant only has to miss a game or two, uh assuming we can get through the the Denver Nuggets. Um, what do you what do you think of the series now, knowing we don't have Dante and and Ant going into game five in Denver?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I'm almost scared to say it as a Minnesota fan, but it it feels like it's it's almost over. I I I'm gonna eat those words, I just have a feeling, but I mean I I I don't know that that Denver has an answer. I mean, are they gonna come up with a seventh footer in the paint? Are they gonna be able to get bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic in the next week, week and a half? Like, no, I I mean the Minnesota's defense has been kind of shutting them down. They've held them two straight games under 100, and Denver just doesn't have an answer for the downhill push to the basket. I mean, they're you've got IO attack in the rim, and even Tam Shannon Jr. last night. I think he's gonna be big in game five.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah, uh you're right. There's points of this series where you know I know Ant hasn't looked great, um, and he doesn't obviously feel 100% even before this injury, but there were times where I'm like, we we almost look better without him because he's he's one of the guys that settles for threes too often or those mid-range shots when he should be getting downhill, and Io doesn't do that, and Terrence doesn't do that, uh, or yeah, Terrence Shannon, TJ Shannon. Um, and so yeah, I think I I actually think the the DiVincenzo injury is almost I'm not gonna say more important or bigger than Ants because Ant's our best player, but um all the little plays that he makes, all the little hustle plays when you know, like getting a tip out or a rebound or diving for a loose ball, like those are the plays that he makes. So now you're kind of hoping that it's Io that will make those, or you know, Jaden's probably not the guy that makes a lot of those. Um, but it's gonna have to be by committee. I think this the the other parts of Ant's game we can we can weather. Um, but those hustle plays by Dean Divincenzo, I think, are gonna be huge. So um it's just gonna require, you know, when he's the backup on Murray, right? Like Jaden's primarily guarding Murray, but when Di Vincenzo guarded him, we were pretty solid. But now you're going into Io, who's not quite as good as DiVincenzo, I think, on screens. Um, and then after that, you know, it's you get pretty thin on perimeter. Even like Shannon last night, I noticed he was chasing him one time and he was eight feet behind him. You know, he was not attached enough. So those are the those are the you know, now you just that depth. But like, you know, I'm looking at our starting lineup, right? And you're gonna go with Io and Mike, probably, because I Mike can play in this series. Mike, I don't think, can play after this series, just with how good the Spurs and OKC is are and how big and physical they are. But Mike can play in this series. So I think I think they'll go Mike and Io along with Jaden, Rudy, and uh Julius, but then you're then you're down to Bones and Nas and Terrence Shannon Jr. So I don't know. Yeah, I agree. Like I I I thought sorry, I'm sorry just to keep going. I I'm all over the place right now, but uh they uh No, please do I thought I thought Denver last night threw their haymakers, like that was the they came out firing, they were aggressive, they were killing us at one point with paints uh points in the paint, and I thought they did some different things offensively, they were running a little bit more action away from the ball, and then Murray getting into the ball screen from you know different angles, and I thought they kind of did everything they had, and they were up four at halftime, and then that they just got smoked in the second. So I agree. I don't if the Wolves play anywhere near where they're capable of, even with this lineup, I think they're just they they hopefully can take care of business in game five.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

But yeah, well, and that says it if you think the Timberwolves can win one of the next three, right? But if Denver goes home and wins game five at home, how must or how how much of a must-win game does game six feel like for the Wolves suddenly, even with two games to go? So I don't really like love our chances going back to Denver for game seven. But no, it's funny. It's funny because that's exactly I I was putting together some notes for this this morning here, and that was one of the notes I had too is that the first half was an absolute battle, and then it just but it felt like that was Denver's best punch, right? They weren't turning the ball over, they were getting stops, Joker was being Joker. Um, and then I think the Wolves defense just eventually wore them down, you know. It just it felt like you know, we just kept attacking the rim. We kept, you know, Jaden just kind of shadowing Jamal, and just it it was fun to watch, just to kind of watch that that just slowly turn after over four the course of four quarters.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, I think Jokic was one for ten in the second half. Um, I think they had one turnover in the first half and nine in the second or something like that. You know, like it was just kind of like we got it, we're gonna give you everything we got. And I they I don't know if mentally how you feel when you're up four and the other team lost two of their better players, and you're you played about as good as you can play, you know. I mean, they just they you're right. We've been wearing them out. Murray is exhausted. There, he did not bring the ball up as much this game, and I think that was also one of those things where they they adjusted that, right? They were like, he's gonna get too tired. Well, you know, he had 30, but he also took 20, what was it, 25 shots he took last night? So you know, they're just their efficiency, 10 for 25. You know, it's 40 percent. It's not great. Jokic is eight for 22, they're just having to work so hard for everything. Uh I was talking about this on my last uh podcast about how I think the Nuggets all year relied so much on teams double teaming Jokic, and that's why all these other guys got all these shots, they got all these back doors, they got open threes, and the wolves just don't have to do it. And even if he makes, like you said, the first half he was pretty good. Um they still didn't have to double him, and he only ends up with 24. So that's that's the biggest difference. Is during the regular season, during some of the the 2024 playoffs, he'd score 40 if he didn't double him. And now he's scoring 24, 25, 26 points. Um, let's talk about IELTS. Io just we we we're what like 15 minutes into this, haven't talked about Io's 43 piece that he just dropped.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Um yeah, uh that was that was outstanding. Yeah, we got we gotta find a way to pay that guy next year, though.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, um definitely. I think he was only making like seven million this year or seven and a half, and um last I looked, he was expecting like twenty. I think it's I think it went up. Um but Dante was also uh he's in the final year of his DL too. So like that's uh you know, if they can find a way to pay both those guys, great, but that probably means somebody else is gone. But let's that's for another day. Iowa 43. Um he did not miss a three-pointer. What was he, six for six on threes? Five for five on threes. Yeah, 12 for 12 at the free throw line, and uh 13 for 17 overall for 43 points. Just incredible, like stepping into a really tough spot and just looked so comfortable. I mean, he was awesome from the get-go. And he he was great last game, too, right? Like this wasn't like uh holy crap, we've never seen him play the but this was another level, and this was four he played 42 minutes and had 43 points, just insane.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Well, I think he's absolutely capable of, I guess, I don't know if you can feel the shoes of Ant when Ansel, but being being that guy, right? I mean, if you had to if you were to ask people, you know, what is Denver's you know, kryptonite or or the chink in the armor, right? It'd be rim protection. If you've got a guy that can go 100 miles an hour the whole game downhill and attack the rim, like that's that's exact that that's the perfect piece. And we were watching game one together too, and we were kind of criticizing Ant a little bit, right? We're like he takes the full eight seconds to get the ball up the court, right? And then he dribbles and just kind of you know takes a kind of a somewhat of a fourth shot with five seconds left on the shot clock, and then you know, Denver's going the other direction. Um it's I I think it's gonna be like you said, he hasn't Ant hasn't been playing this great. I think he's gonna be able to fill in and fill that void.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah, he kind of, you know, even at the trade deadline as a bench player, he f did a lot of the things that we didn't have. We didn't have a point guard that I mean bones, but we didn't have another guard that would push pace, you know, get into the paint. He kind of does that more consistently than anybody on the team. Even those little floaters he was doing last night, maybe he doesn't make all of them normally, but um just putting the pressure on the rim is something they have to do. And I I was saying this the other day, like that will change dramatically in the next two rounds. You know, no matter who you play next, it's gonna be different. But for this series, he is absolutely um the perfect kind of player to fill this role because you know, Dante isn't that guy, and Ant can be that guy, but he doesn't do it consistently enough. Io appears to just know I can get downhill and get to the basket when I want to and get out and run in transition. And Jaden and Nas love that as well, and Bones loves that as well. Shannon loves it, so it's I don't I don't know. My my I agree with you. I'm a little like yeah, you don't want to lose game five necessarily, but role players coming home, play better. I I just want the win in game five so badly because I think we just need that rest. Um yeah, so we'll see. I I don't know how much fight Denver has in them, though, like like we were saying earlier, like they kind of gave it their best, and it was not remotely good enough for four quarters. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Did you see uh did you see Jokit's uh post-game interview when the first question asked of him was from a reporter? I don't know which reporter it was, but asked, Did do you feel like this team still has any fight left in them? And he just yes, it was a one-word answer, yes. It was the first question right out the right out the gate. But interesting. So yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

We're not the only ones talking about that. I mean, if you're getting the game five, yeah, you know, K came out in game one and took it to us a little bit, but I I don't think that anybody would say the wolves played remotely well in game one. Um, and basically since the first quarter of the second game, it's been pretty pretty much domination on the wolves end. So I don't know when he wants to start fighting, but maybe it's when he sees someone score a layup with one second to go, he finally got fired up. Uh, you know, I made the joke and I saw others, so I'm not gonna take credit for it, but that's the fastest and hardest he he ran to court in this whole series, I think, was to go get Jaden.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, I don't know if you want to if you want to flip the topic to that right now, but yeah, it was to be honest when I saw Jaden pick up that ball and I saw that ball go down court and I saw Jaden grab it, I was like, oh man, don't do it. Just let's just just dribble this thing out, but that's that's definitely not Jaden's personality at all. That's why we love Jaden, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

I I thought he was gonna do the the bounce dunk that he does. What's he they call it something, Slim Reaper or something they call the dunk that he does. I thought he was gonna go down. So the fact that he just laid it in, I was like, you know what? He didn't even show boat, he just made a layup. Like, I'm sorry. I I agree if it's what you and I deal with, sixth grade basketball AAU, yeah, don't do that. Dribble it out. But this these guys are getting paid, man. Like, he didn't showboat, he didn't show you up. I've seen Aaron Gordon do similar stuff, and Jamal Murray do stuff like this where they dunk it at the end of the game like that. This is you're frustrated. You went one for 10. That's what that was. I don't think anything Jaden did was like completely out of line. Do you see most guys dribble it out? Sure. But it's not like he did a windmill 360 and just pointed at their bench. Like, come on. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I've always been kind of secretly a little bit of a closet, you know, Jokic fan, but uh despite the rivalry, but I did lose a little bit of respect for him last night. I mean, what a bad look to run all the way across the floor. Like you said, it's the most he's hustled all night to start a fight on the other team's bench when the game's completely over. Just just take your back-to-bat butt whoopings like a professional. You know, I and I like I said I stayed up to watch the post-game interview and uh he doubled down and said he didn't regret it. And I I honestly I was I was hoping to hear something along the lines of like, you know, I didn't like it, my emotions got the best of me, but at the end of the day, we need to go for ought to be a competitive basketball team for game five or something like that. But no, he just doubled down on it, you know, Adleman doubled down on it. It was just like, you guys get over it, you know. And you know, if you're not worried about those two two points, go go play defense. And if you're if you're worried about someone running out the clock, then why did you fall Io? A guy who was perfect at the line that night. You're gonna be down by what 13, probably 14 points with 27 seconds left to go. If you wanted a guy to just dribble off the clock, he's your class act guy that would have done that and had the ball back to you with three seconds. But you know, you follow them to stop the clock with 27 seconds left. So it is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I again, this is a playoff game. They don't like each other. He didn't show you up. I mean, yeah, and you could have played defense anytime in the series. And if you don't want him scoring on you, maybe maybe play defense because you know what? You got called out, and you got punked, and you're getting punked again and again and again, and you haven't done anything to stop it. So, like, it I just I feel like they are so the wolves are so in their heads right now. And I love it. I think Jaden, I I think he was almost like the you know, when he grabs as jerk, you know, Jokic confronts him, grabs him, he's like laughing because he's like, I know exactly what I'm doing, and you are losing your mind because you cannot get free, you cannot have space, you are not getting easy shots. Um everything's hard. Even the end of games when you lose by 16 points is hard for him at this point. And it's just I don't know what they expected. I don't know what Jokic expected or anybody like Adleman. You know, this is kind of who Jaden is. Who is he? He made a layup, the game was still going on. Like, I don't know. Again, he didn't point at your bench or you know, do some crazy thing. Like, I I just at this point in the playoffs, I feel like those unwritten rules kind of go out the window a little bit. Like, you want to be a good sport, sure, but these guys are getting paid, and it's the playoffs, and he don't like you. And he's told you he doesn't like you. Like it reminds me of AJ Perzinski. You know, we all hated him when he was on the other team, but you love him when he's on yours. I don't think Jason's like a bad dude. I think he's just like, dude, we're better than you, and we know it, and you can't do anything to stop us. So I think it's kind of awesome.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

And I know we're Wolves fans, but yeah, I'm guessing Denver fans might not feel that way, but no, I I love it too. You know, I mean that smile on his face, it instantly I saw a picture of a still frame of that last night, and it it brought me right back to Alexander Walker when he was just doubling and uh picking up Jamal Murray full court. He just had that smile on his face while while Murray was completely freaking out, losing his mind. It it brought me instantly back to that moment, and I kind of put a smile on my face too. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

That was awesome. Um well they're they're talking suspension. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Do you think there's gonna I can't see any suspensions on this, can you?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Um, I don't think anybody on the wolf side, the only one I could see was Gordon because he came off the bench, right? I maybe there was other guys, but like Braun was in the game, Jokic was in the game, Bruce Brown, I think, was still in the game. So like the guys that were on the court should be fine. Randall was in the game. Um, I don't know why Randall got a technical. That I I was kind of like, why did he get a T? Um why the to me, the Jaden, there's nothing you Do to Jaden. He didn't throw a punch. He got you know, Jokic was the instigator. He played the game. The game was still going on. He made a layup. There's nothing that you can do about that. Um so Gordon maybe was like, hey, I ain't playing anyway because my hamstring and my calf don't work at all. So maybe he didn't care. But um when Julia started uh mixing it up, I'm like, these boys better be careful. You don't, you don't you don't want to mess with Julius Randall in a scrum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

No, I I yeah, I saw Braun, but so Braun, like it looked like the all the fight was like pretty much on the wolves bench. Like, I don't know if you can even say anyone left the bench because it was I mean, right. Jokic threw or push me, you know, pushed uh Jaden back into the bench. And I saw Braun come running from the side onto the wolves bench. I don't know if it's different from leaving your bench versus attacking another bench, but he started pushing people around on the wolves bench. So we'll see. I guess if anyone gets suspended, though, it's it's gonna be the Joker, right? I mean, he has to be the number one guy with a bullet that would see something.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah, I just don't think the NBA would do that. Yeah. I mean, maybe they would, but I would be shocked if if any of these main players are. I like Aaron Gordon, like I said, he was the only one. I didn't look at it super closely either. I just, you know, no punches, nothing super crazy. It's just to me, it's like the sour grapes, you know. Like if you want to do that in the middle of the game, just get your team going and like do something. You usually see like a Valenciunas guy would come in and do stuff like that. To do it at the end of the game that you just blew away, you know, lost your third in a row. I think, especially for a guy like Jokic, I'd like the way I guess I expect superstars to handle stuff like that is to walk off the court, do what you said, and basically in the post-game, and be like, Yeah, they got us. I don't like it. And we're gonna be ready on in game five and we're gonna do something about it, or you know, whatever. Like Barkley, kind of in the post-game. I assume you did you watch the the ESPN guys?

SPEAKER_01 24:11

No, I flipped over to NBA TV to see it. I I wish I would have done that.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Okay, yeah. Bark Barkley was basically like, yeah, you know, I used to say, yeah, we're gonna put 500 bucks if you you know knock that guy's head off, basically, you know, do bounty gate. Um, and Shaq was kind of the opposite, where he's like, dude, they're lucky he didn't do a windmill, 360, like, you know, so I think I think there's a good mix. Like, Denver should be mad. Like, they should come out and take it to him, but what are they gonna do? That's my question. If you haven't done it by game five or through four games, what are you gonna do in game five? Um, Aaron Gordon's the only physical, you know, presence shot blocker guy. They were talking about like I saw Adam and say stuff about there's more than one way to be physical, and we can run guys off big tougher screens and blah blah blah. And I'm like, you've been doing that all game, man. It's not affecting them at all. Like, you're just I I just don't know outside of doing some sort of cheap shot, I don't know what else they're gonna do that's gonna be again. That first half, they looked awesome. Denver looked ready to go, they were physical, both ends, they were attacking, they were, you know, moving, doing some different things that the wolves hadn't seen. But then when it mattered, they didn't have any of that. So I don't know. It feels weird to be a Minnesota fan and be like, the other team can't do really anything, you know. But they're gonna need like 75 points from Murray and Jokic, I think, is what is uh what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Well, yeah, and that certainly hasn't been easy for you to those the series so far. So we'll we'll see if there's anything left, but it's it yeah. I'm excited for game five. Of course, uh you know, 9.45 tip off, but looking forward to another tired week of work.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Uh yeah, another 1 a.m. at night for us. Um, so what I think is kind of interesting, usually these travel days they get an extra day off, but they're going right away on Monday. So if whoever's been the fresher team, the team that isn't getting tired, who has been the Timberwolves, um I'll be curious to see what what Murray and Jokic look like uh on Monday night because they have not looked um like they're able to withstand 40 plus minutes of this defense from the Wolves in the first four games, and they only got one day off here. So you think they what do you think happens in game five?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Uh well I I I'm worried that that end of the game is gonna spark something in Denver. I don't know what it is, but like I said, just being the pessimistic Minnesota sports fan that it's in me that's seeing this type of thing fall apart more times than I can even remember. Um I'm a little nervous because like you said, if if they can win game five, game six back here feels like the game you have to win. So you're not going back there for game seven. So but having said that, I I mean Denver hasn't had an answer to anything since game that you said, the quarter, first quarter of game two, and I expect that to continue, even with Ant out and Demon Chenzo out. So hopefully they can put this away in five and get some rest, like you said.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, we haven't really had, I kind of thought there'd be a lot of like 130, 125 games in this series. Just I didn't think the Wolves would be able to slow them down like they have. I'm kind of in obviously Denver doesn't really slow us down a whole lot. Um so the fact that they've gone back to back, like you said, night on under 100 points. I kind of think Denver might might get it going a little bit here. Um, whether or not that's enough to even win, though, like I could see them finally hitting at 120, but I think the Wolves, you know, they've been one, what are they, 112 the other night? They had a 116 in there. I mean, they're I I could see this being a little bit more high scoring because Denver, Denver needs to do something to find freedom in space. Like when they're playing in the half court, which is part of what Jade, you know, Jade picking the ball up full court, slowing Murray down. This I this is I think the biggest thing in this series, and I talked about it the last couple of weeks on a few different podcasts, but the fact that Denver doesn't have another point guard is really glaring in this series because Murray has to bring the ball up every time down the court, and when they when he doesn't, they have no other like change of pace, where the Wolves obviously have this like totally different lineup they can go with when it's like Bones and Io and Nas and Jaden and uh Julius, right? Like they they have this like super fast, super athletic lineup. And I just I don't know, man. I I don't think Denver really has options, and that's the the biggest thing I've noticed is like if it ain't Murray and Jokic, they're just not they're not capable, I guess, the other guys. So um prediction for me, I don't know. I'm kind of torn too. I'd like to think the wolves are just in their heads so deep and they'll get it going, but I think road games without your best player are gonna be tough, and then DiVincenzo too, just veteran. I don't know. I'd like to say they're gonna pull it off. You know, I could this this is what's crazy. I could see Jaden dropping a 30 piece in this one. And Julius really hasn't played that well all series, and I maybe it's a Julius game. Maybe he just uh maybe we find something with him, and especially if Aaron Gordon isn't playing at all, then it's a then it's a Julius game. So we'll see. Um all right. The last thing you brought this up. Awesome, awesome topic. I was like, this is this is really good. So is Jokic a better offensive player or Gobert a better defensive player? Let's let's start with offensive player list. Um I thought of immediately off the top of my head, before I even looked it up, I was like, Kareem, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Magic Bird, probably. Um then I looked up and I was done, oh, you know, Oscar Robinson, he was really good. He had like triple-double machine, kind of like Jokic, Pete Maravic for his short career was probably one of the most exciting offensive players ever. Um is there anyone I'm missing that you think of when you think of like best offensive players of all time?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Maybe, maybe Durant was the only guy on my list that you didn't just mention.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

But yeah, yeah, he's climbing up the scoring ranks.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah. You know, so yeah, no, I I just was like, you know, last night I was just thinking about it because even after the game two, the everything was, you know, from the national media hype was can you can you believe that Rudy is just shutting down you know Jokic and or or keeping him in check, you know, game over game after game. And in my head, I'm kind of thinking, well, well, yeah, I I kind of can. It's not completely inconceivable that you know one of the best defensive players in the NBA is making things a little bit more difficult for Joker than he's used to seeing, you know, and it's it's causing him to get flustered. So that's kind of what sparked that idea in my head that just Rudy's just not getting the credit he deserves here.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And that's kind of another story for the Shaq last night. Yeah. Shaq even said something last night where he was like, you know, Joker's just missing shots, and blah, blah, blah. Chuck's like, do you don't think Gobert has anything to do with that? Um, so I even like it's so hard for Shaq to give him any credit. I don't know if it's just because he's so inept offensively, but um, yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Can you imagine if he would have knocked down that can you imagine if he would have knocked down the tree last night? I think the riff roof of uh the target center would have just completely blown off if that would have fallen.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

That was I think ill-advised shots is too too small of a term for that. But uh that was one of those where I'm like, are you come on, man? Like, what are we doing? I know you're like feeling yourself a little bit, but uh that might have been in that stretch where Rock felt like, God, here we go. We're jacking up threes again. And then I think Ile maybe hit one, and I'm like, all right, well, he can keep shooting. I guess he's he's on one. Um, I found this website, uh uh sportsreference.com, just that it allows you to compare. So I looked at this, um, and I just it only allows me so many at a time. But here's who I got we got Kareem. Kareem, I think, just from a scoring lens, right? Like, just had a shot that was impossible to defend. Uh, and then LeBron, obviously, all-time score, one of the great passers. Magic, same thing. So, like career statistics, Jokic really isn't, you know, he's not a top scorer, he's not a top assist, he's not um, you know, one of those guys, but his percentages on this list are obviously much higher. Like Magic was not a good three-point shooter. Um, Oscar Robson obviously didn't have the three-point line. Um, effective field goal, he's the leader. But um, I'm trying to think of where I would rank him at this point. Like amongst these guys, I'd probably put him last in this group. Um, Jordan, I don't Jordan, I've always kind of torn on because Jordan to me was like such a complete player like defensively, that I don't know that he was as good as like LeBron is facilitating and doing all the different things. But um, so when it comes to offensive players, I might put Jokic ahead of him. What about Steph Curry? Would you put Steph or Jokic higher on your list?

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Oh man, I I'd go Steph personally. But I mean, Joker does everything though, right? I mean, like you said, it's just it's it's the the steals, the or sorry, it's the uh the assist, it's the the making his teammates better. It's I I think I said he led the league in rebounds this year, right? Too.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I mean yeah, yeah. Rebounds and assists.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, he does everything on offense, so it's it's hard to say Steph's much more electric though watching him just knock down threes from the logo.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Right. And you know, Jokic has one title. Curry's got what four. All these guys on this list have multiple uh titles, uh all NBA, much more more so than Jokic. I know Jokic isn't done with his career, but um so like those are just I mean, he's he's great. He's also asked to literally do everything. So these guys played on a lot of teams that have great players, uh won titles, right? Team game, but um I don't know. The fact that he and LeBron have about the same amount of assists, Magic averaged 11 assists a game in his career. Um, you know, Oscar Robertson is was kind of he always averaged almost 10 assists a game. So I don't know. I'd say Jokic is probably in that what six to eight maybe range right now of all-time offensive players. I maybe that seems right. Is that some is that where you'd put him, you think?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

That's probably about where I'd put him too, yeah. I it's hard because like if you go back and look at like you know, Magic Johnson and you know, Prino George Barr and some of these guys, Oscar Robbins is definitely different era, and it's it's hard. I I did not watch them play, so I'm just comparing statistics, you know. So it's yeah, it's basically, but no three-point line for some of these guys, even so.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Well, right, yeah. And I think Merevich, I don't know if that's I feel like somebody did that one time where they like went back and looked at his shots, and like if they had been um a three-point line, like what he would have averaged, like it's some crazy number. He didn't play um you know long enough really to to like get into this list. Oh now we're now we're having issues. Must be a sketchy website. There we go. So Maravich averaged 24 a game before a three-point line when he would have probably I wonder how many years they had the three-point line when he was playing, but he was he was incredible as well. So um, okay, so top 10 player, offensive player of all time for sure. Let's flip over to uh defensive player. Now, this one's a little trickier. I have a list here of uh we talked about like Ben Wallace, Hakeem Lajwan, Bill Russell, KG, um Tim Duncan, Takembe Matumbo, Draymond Green, right? Like there's a pretty big list. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen. Um, so when you look at that, like blocks per game, obviously Bill Russell, they weren't tracking it, but um Hakeem averaged over three blocks a game in his career. Like that's just absurd. Uh Rudy's at two, Ben Wallace at two. Um, you know, I think a couple of these guys like Pippen and Garnett obviously could guard all over the court, where uh Rudy struggles a little more with that. Ben Wallace didn't do a lot of that or as much. I think Hakeem probably could have and probably did. Um rebounds, obviously. Uh Rudy's up there. Um looks like uh Dennis averaged 13 rebounds a game in his career. That's just crazy. Um but you had brought up uh Dekembe Matumbo, Rudy, and Ben Wallace are the only four-time defensive players of the year, I think. That's right, right? Those three. That's correct. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And then I was kind of going through a list in my head last night at you know midnight as I'm sitting on a couch in the basement trying to think of guys. I don't know how uh Dennis Raman didn't pop into my head. I don't know how, because that that was you know, he might be up there as number one. I don't know how I think he escaped me last night, but I definitely wanted to add him to the list.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Yeah, and Draymond too. I think he's he's up there similar to like a rodman, like just being able to guard every position. Um like KG getting on 12 all defense teams, Pippen on 10, like that's quite a bit more. Rudy's on eight. Um, you know, Bill Russell's not on this list, so you know, there's probably a few others, but I I agree kind of with you in terms like Rudy versus Matumbo is an interesting one. Um I think kind of similar players, obviously, like Matumbo is probably a little bit more explosive as a shot blocker. Actually, we can pull him up too, drop him in here. Um but anybody else that you think of when you think of all-time defensive players?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

No, no, you read my list as a lot of centers. Yeah, you brought that up that point up earlier, too, that a lot of the wing defenders aren't getting the love for defensive players here the centers are. So that list probably could be longer if you did an extensive shirts for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah. So Dekumbe averaged almost three blocks again. Like, I was showing my son this morning videos of Hakim Olajuan, and he's like, Yeah, I've already seen these down. Because I'm like, people, you know, they talk about all the all these centers and how agile they are now, and blah blah blah. And I'm like, dude, do you do do people remember Hakim Olajuan? Like, he was hitting fadeaway baseline jumpers and spin moves and ball handling on the three-point line. Like, that dude was incredible.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Oh, yeah. Skyhook.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah, yeah, he had everything. He had a whole bag. See now Matumbo's interesting. He at like Ben Wallace both won the defensive player of the year four times, but they only made six all defensive teams. So they kind of basically had like four years where they were the best, but then the rest of their career maybe they weren't quite as effective or um, you know, highly regarded. So um, you know, looking at these lists, it it's kind of hard to not have Rudy in a similar range to Jokic, right? Like he's also, I'd say probably behind like Bill Russell is hard, like you said, different eras, but you know, he battled Will Chamberlain and his team won those games in a lot, most instances in uh the Lakers Celtics era back then in the 60s, and he had like crazy amount of rebounds. They didn't chart blocks, but I'm sure he had plenty of those. So I feel like Bill Russell, Elajuan, um Rodman to me is probably ahead of Rudy. But man, Rudy's getting into that KG Ben Wallace mix for sure. Um Draymond, I don't know. Where do you stand on Draymond versus Rudy?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

I'd probably go Draymond just because he's had more success in the playoffs and just kind of been more of an intimidator, I think. And I mean, I guess just nationally he's definitely got a lot more respect than Rudy has over the years.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yeah, um Draymond got a lot of success because he played with Stephan Clay and KD, though. That's fair. You know, if he was in Utah with Donovan Mitchell, do you think he's uh high as highly regarded as he is right now? That's a great point. Uh I mean he's got nine all defensive teams.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Would you say Rudy has eight?

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Eight. Yeah. Uh Rudy's got four defense defensive players of the year. Draymond's got one, which is probably why he's bitter about it, right? Um yeah, I think there's no you got to get a lot of praise for Rudy between those two. Oh my god. Yeah. To me, like right just looking at this list right here, it's Hakeem and Garnett are for sure the top two. Um, you know, people always talk about Tim Duncan as well. Um it's another one where they're having great teams. David Robinson, yeah, big time shot blocker. Uh yeah, I I don't know. It it's a great, it's a great question. I'd I'd love to hear what others think, but man, I I I think I think both of them are probably in that six to eight range, you know, uh, in terms of all-time offensive and defensive players. Um, does that seem fair? It seems fair. I like your list. You like it? It's not the be all end all, but I think it's uh it's it's tough, man. Like, yeah, I I that's what's funny about this conversation. It's like what you were saying earlier, how people are like, oh my god, can you believe it's happening? Well, yeah, these are two of the greatest on each side of the ball. And uh in other times, it's been Jokic winning it. And for this series, Rudy is definitely through four games winning this head-to-head matchup, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, and to be fair, I mean, Joker still put up 27 points last night and had assists and kind of, you know, in the second first and second quarter was kind of like I said, the facilitator and the engine of everything. So it's you can't really shut him down completely, but he definitely made things difficult. I think I think uh Jokic mentioned that in his post-game interview, maybe after game three, was it? Where he's like, he's just making everything harder, harder or difficult. I don't know, I forget the the you know, the words he used, but he he mentioned that that yeah, it's just it's making everything a lot harder than it it should be, which was awesome to hear.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Yeah, which is all you can kind of do as a defender against somebody like that. But um the biggest thing is it's late in the games. You know, Jokic is getting some early, but man, come second half, fourth quarter, he is not in that. I I've heard um a guest. I've had on um Andrew Dukowitz. He's in a locker room interviewing these guys post-game, and he's like he's said it multiple times like Rudy is in incredible shape. Like he is a he's like chiseled, you know, and just incredibly conditioned. And I think that is lost in some of this too, where Jokic looks pretty gassed. Um, we're putting him in, making him defend at the rim, making him defend on the perimeter, and um Rudy's just in better shape. And I don't know about Murray, like what kind of shape he's in, but Jaden doesn't ever look tired, and Murray does. So, you know, uh conditioning can can be a big factor in this head-to-head matchup, too.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Oh, a hundred percent. And Io doesn't look tired, Bones doesn't look tired, T SJ doesn't look tired, these guys just don't look like they're gonna slow down, and that's why it feels like these games have been kind of tighter in the first part of the first half, and things just kind of fall apart for them and they get into quarter four. Um, I I think they're just they're just worn down. Yeah. Which makes me a little nervous with uh two of our starters out. You know, I mean is that is that gonna change once we are getting these guys, you know, five minutes more a game, eight minutes more game, ten minutes more a game with those two out that they're gonna start showing fatigue too. I don't know. We'll see, I guess, in game five.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Yeah. I mean the nice thing is right now you don't really have to rely on anybody who hasn't played. Um, we've been playing ten guys, so you know, can you go to a little bit shorter bench and maybe you just bring Nas and Bones off the bench? If you need Shannon for a few minutes, you can play him. You can you can get Kyle some minutes too. Like they got nine guys still who have contributed, and and so are they as good? And of course not, but um, I would argue that Ant hasn't been great in the playoffs, so you know you want to close her when you need to close her, but uh yeah, I think having Mike in there, and you know, that that was what was interesting last night is like as soon as I think Dante went down, I'm pretty sure Conley was the one that came in for him.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

I was like you, I I tuned in after that injury too. I was probably about three minutes after that. I I tuned in when it was you know probably five, six minutes into the first quarter. So I missed that too. I couldn't tell you who we came in for.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I thought I think I heard that Conley was the first one because I think when I got turned it on, he was playing, and I was like, what the heck's going on with Dante? Um, because it was only like you know, just the game had just kind of started. So um, yeah, man. I I I don't know, like you can trust Mike, like you don't want to play him a ton of minutes, but you you kind of can in this series. Like that that double team he had on Maria at the half court yesterday was such an instinctual, like smart play. Um you know he played 21 minutes last night, um, five points, four rebounds, two or sorry, five points, one rebound, four assists, two steals. He was a plus seven. Like, if you can get 15 to 20 minutes of mic just being solid and making two shots, that's all you're gonna need. And then Bones, Bones might give you 20, and he might give you an 0 for 7. Yeah, you don't know. But um, yeah. All right, man. Well, we got game five in Denver tomorrow night on Monday. Late tip. Get your rest, get your popcorn ready, see what uh what the nuggets have for us. Um, where are you watching tomorrow night, John? Are you gonna take it uh at home, just chilling at home?

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Yep, I'm afraid so. I you know, right around you know, maybe after the third quarter, go brush the teeth, put you know, kind of get ready so you can kind of just drift off to sleep as soon as that uh that final horn wins and that uh wolves move on to round two.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

That's not what happens. No, it's we stay up, we're we're jacked up. Although that if if if they lose, we might, you know, that might be uh okay, I'm going to bed. Uh but uh man, when they win, you want to listen to everything, be a part of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Oh yeah, I do. But yeah, I guess I I I tell myself that then. At least I'm being a responsible adult, and then when I sit and just uh yeah, with my AirPods in and try not to to wake up my wife as I have to try to listen to all the post-game interviews and stuff and get myself more worked up after that. I uh yeah, it's it's definitely gonna happen. So it'll be a it'll be an early alarm clock on Tuesday morning, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Yeah, yeah. All right, man. Well, thanks a lot. Thanks for joining me. This is uh this was fun. Appreciate you. Awesome, Steve. Yep, thanks for having me on. All right, thanks to John Schley, loyal listener, now contributor to the podcast. Appreciate John coming on and talking through the wolves. Game four win, uh, updates on game five, injuries, and of course, our our fun discussion on Rudy Gobert and and Nikola Jokic today. So, again, appreciate you all listening. Game five, Monday night in Denver ball arena. It should be electric. It's gonna be a late one. So make sure you get your coffee, get your caffeine ready, get ready to go. Game five should be awesome. A lot at stake. The Nuggets, are they gonna show up? Are they gonna have their championship pedigree on display? Or have the wolves broken their spirits? We'll find out Monday night. Thanks for listening. This has been the Splash City basketball podcast.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Back in, back and back again.