23. WOAT Would Jesus Do? The Case For/Against Brutal Honesty

If honesty is the best policy… does it need to come with brass knuckles?

This week on Wrong Way Forward, Katy argues for empathy, Justin defends “brutal honesty without cruelty” (??), and a Dear Abby letter about a WOAT fiancée sends them into full courtroom mode.

We cover:

• Intention vs. impact
• Why most people don’t actually want unfiltered truth
• When direct honesty might save a life
• And whether you should EVER tell your sibling their partner is the worst of all time

Plus: a deeply elegant public response from Melinda Gates that may just settle the debate.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Brutal Honesty

Speaker 0:00

She's Katy Montgomery. He's Justin Joseph. These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with Wrong Way Forward. Now, here's Katy and Justin.

Katy Montgomery 0:11

Hi, my name is Katy Montgomery, and I'm here with my best friend Justin Joseph. And you are listening to the Wrong Way Forward podcast. And today we're going to talk about something called brutal honesty. And if you remember, it was either one or two episodes ago. We were talking about this concept of future faking and you should just be honest. And Justin replied with, Well, you should be brutally honest. And I said, Well, that sounds kind of funny.

Justin Joseph 0:37

I just think you were the one who started the term. And I said, Yes, you should totally be brutally honest. And then you dissected it.

Katy Montgomery 0:43

And I think on the spot we looked up the word brutal. And what I think is the word brutal is sometimes defined as savagely violent.

Justin Joseph 0:54

Well, I do think I clarified that I said you don't have to be cruel, but brutal honesty in its truest sense, you of course I'm a huge fan of.

Katy Montgomery 1:01

Yeah, you're a huge fan. And and I think this is something where we're gonna definitely disagree. I think brutal honesty is the wrong way forward. And I think it's only in very, very rare occasions is it needed, should be used, and is actually effective.

Justin Joseph 1:16

And what I love about this, there are so many great examples out there of brutal honesty, in effect. And probably if you're listening, you can have 10 that are will happen today or this past week that you've been in that situation. But we're gonna start by taking on the advice from dear Abby. And by the way, this is my new favorite term. I'll be using it all the term, but the title of it is My Brother's Engaged to an Argumentative Shrew. Should I break them up? And this is what the question is. My brother just got engaged to a woat, worst of all time.

Katy Montgomery 1:44

I mean, yes, we definitely need to use that.

Justin Joseph 1:49

And we need woe out in our vocabulary. So anyway, my brothers got engaged to a woe at. They've been dating for two and a half years, and nobody in the family has anything good to say about her. Now we've all been there. I mean, I'm sure there's so many people who with friends, etc. In the past, he's always has he's always had stable relationships with girls we really enjoyed. But now he's getting older. Oh no. His friends are getting engaged, and it seems like he's feeling the pressure they are always arguing, and things he never did before he's doing now, multiple job changes, making less time for families, etc. Everyone thinks that as the oldest brother, I should be the one to voice our concerns about it. Would it be too drastic to tell him it's a bad idea? I was going to say I support him if he can find three redeeming qualities in her because none of us can find one. And he signs it, no fan of her in the east. So he's this guy's he's funny. Anyway, dear no

Dear Abby: Should I Intervene?

Justin Joseph 2:40

fan, I do not, this is Abby responding. I do not think telling your recently engaged brother that his fiance is the worst of all time and that no one can find any redeeming qualities would be welcome. I do think, however, is the oldest symbol you point out that you were concerned, blah, blah, blah. And she goes on basically saying, Don't be brutally honest. And look, I think it, I think brutal honesty in this sense, well, firstly, I think this is the wrong way forward. I think he should say whatever he needs to say if he thinks that this is going down the wrong path. Now, I think brutally honest doesn't have to include the verbiage, she's the woe at. It can just be like, you know, I think you're making a mistake here. That still is brutal honesty.

Katy Montgomery 3:15

No, I I take, I have so many issues with what you just said. You're like, he needs to tell him whatever he needs to say. And I think that's when it we really need to step back. And and all of us are guilty of not stepping back and not kind of being reflective and thinking about it. Is what is the intention of saying this? And if the intention is to say is that we've got to get this off our chest, we have to let you know, you know, is this really about the brother? Is this really about the family, or is there really care and concern for him? And when you say he should just say whatever he feels, that's gonna release his anxiety, that's gonna make him feel better. And then it becomes about him. We've lost the objective of, you know, you've changed. Are you okay? You know, is this something that you want to do? And so I think we've got to really step back and say, why do people really want to be unfiltered? What is the intention of being unfiltered? And being unfiltered means that you can sometimes be brutal or savagely violent in your communication.

Justin Joseph 4:23

And I think I agree with you it is about intention, but I mean, we have to assume that his intentions are the best intentions for his brother. We can't assume that this is about him getting something off his chest. Based on his email, and um, I do think his intentions are, he does. I mean, the guy's doing multiple job changes, I forget what else he said. I mean, those those are scary things. Can you imagine if one of your lawyer brothers, you have one lawyer brother, one of your lawyer brothers, like, yeah, I'm gonna go paint art because my new wife, I mean, wouldn't you be freaking out?

Katy Montgomery 4:51

I would be, but again, it's like going back to brutal honesty. And I think I'm trying to separate what you're saying and also his intentions. You're like, if he needs to get it off his chest, he needs to get it off his chest. That's what I was calling some BS on, right? And generally, brutal honesty, we're not talking about being honest, but brutal honesty can some be sometimes be a mask for cruelty. Um, it can really leave the other person, you know, into fight or flight. It's like, are they even receiving the message? If the idea is that you have real concern that he is making major shifts and changes in his life that aren't indicative of the person he is, do you want to give him information in a way that he's gonna be like, go to hell, big bro? I mean, it's so, and then where is the there's a lack of nuance here? Like, where is the compassion? Particularly, I hope that this originally came out of compassion.

Intention Versus Impact

Katy Montgomery 5:45

Like, I have concern for you, I have empathy for you. But the brutal honesty to hell with both of those things.

Justin Joseph 5:51

Well, firstly, it always makes me nervous when I see you looking down at notes. I know I'm screwed.

Katy Montgomery 5:56

Well, don't call out the notes. I thought I thought I was very good at looking down.

Justin Joseph 6:00

You are, but I already know I'm in a losing proposition the minute I see you reviewing notes. I'm like, oh shit, she researched.

Katy Montgomery 6:07

I didn't research much. I just, I just, it's common sense, Justin. Don't be an asshole.

Justin Joseph 6:12

Yeah, and you, of all people, are the best at this. But I really think, and I want you to answer this question, if your brother was dating someone that you were worried about, would you say something? I don't think you would.

Katy Montgomery 6:22

Um, there's a good chance not. But what I know about myself is I can be, um, I'm not good at hiding being an asshole. So I might not be a blatant, brutally honest asshole. But I'm sure, you know, again, emotional contagion is real. I don't have a poker face. So I'm sure there would be some pretty big clues that it's like, I don't like this girl. This, this is, this is not a good match. Now, you know, both of my brothers, my first brother got married when I was fairly young. Um, and and my brothers both have fantastic wives who are wonderful mothers and fantastic people. Yeah. Um, and then my brother Patrick got married um a little bit later. I'm a different person at 52. At 100%. Almost 52, and having, you know, studied coaching and having done a program led by two psychotherapists. I mean, right now I'm listening to a book about, you know, um, you know, emotionally immature parents, I would probably be able to have the conversation. My guess is that 20 years ago, I was probably just a dick.

Justin Joseph 7:29

I a hundred percent. I totally agree. And actually, even though everybody thinks I'm really confrontational, my as I get older, I really do not, I really do not want to have confrontations. I really avoid them. I don't do them unless it's something in the heat of the moment that I can't contain myself. I was on a panel yesterday with real estate and we were they were asking us how we as resources handled it when the other side escalates and gets nasty. And I said, Well, of course I do the same. So there are times, if you get me in a moment, I mean I can't control myself. But if I have some time to think, I really try and avoid conversation.

Katy Montgomery 8:04

All right. And I think this is the difference between are you internal or external, right? And I think you first have to go into the eternal, internal, be self-reflective about why you want to say this. Think about how it might land on a person, think about the space that you want that person to be in, and then you can be external with your comments. But I think most people, and then what happens is my guess is is this guy who's having to deal with this wo-at, my guess is it's just been stewing. And what has been happening is, you know, he's crossed the line. She smiles at him and he's like, What the hell is that about? Right? Like she is just pissing him off. And then he sits around and he chit-chats about it with his mom and his dad, and he chit-chats about it with the siblings, and then he goes home and tells his wife. And so my guess is what also people don't do is they don't have a timely conversation. So when it's time to say something, they're like Mount Etna. They're just about to blow. I mean, the lava is flying right and left because it has been so built up and so agitated and so poked that you can't stay calm and instead you become brutal.

Justin Joseph 9:12

Yeah, and a woat is a wo-out from the beginning. It's they don't become a WOAT. I mean, you know this the first time he brings her it when he shows up with the pocket watch in the zoo suit. We've talked about that. I mean, it's a wo-at.

Katy Montgomery 9:23

He's not a WOAT. He was a poorly dressed person.

Justin Joseph 9:27

A poet, whatever. Pito. I don't know what that's not. That's not what I meant.

Katy Montgomery 9:34

Terrible at the acronym.

Justin Joseph 9:36

But anyway, that's the time for those conversations. Like when they say, you know, did you like her? You met her last night, and you say, No, I really didn't.

Katy Montgomery 9:43

No, do you? This is the difference. You're the iron fist. You're like Russia, right? And I'm the velvet glove. I'm like, I'm like the royals.

Justin Joseph 9:54

You know, you're like what would you on day, but you we agree you say it on day two when your brother calls and says, Did you like her? What would you have said? What did your brother say about the pocket watch?

Katy Montgomery 10:06

It just was like gross.

Justin Joseph 10:09

Brutally honest. I think that takes us to our break. We'll be back on this side to talk more about this on the other side.

Katy Montgomery 10:15

You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward, where bad advice goes to die, and then gets resurrected just so we can roast it again.

Justin Joseph 10:23

If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes.

Katy Montgomery 10:27

Have a new topic or some disastrously bad advice you want to dissect? Email wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Include your contact info.

Speaker 10:37

Now back to Wrong Way Forward. Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin Podcast.

Justin Joseph 10:44

So after 10

Confrontation, Timing, And Restraint

Justin Joseph 10:45

lovely minutes, Katy finally has to confess that her brother is brutally honest because he told her the day two that he didn't like the pocket watch.

Katy Montgomery 10:52

It was not day two. He told me like five years later, what's up with the loser with the pocket watch. So he was in a safe territory.

Justin Joseph 11:02

Okay, so brutally brutal honesty is okay after time passes.

Katy Montgomery 11:07

I mean, I think what's interesting here is you're like, if he did, you know, if if one of my brothers was dating someone and on, you know, and I met her, you know, I would probably first of all say, Katy, you know, you do have a gut reaction, but try to be generous. I would probably wait and meet them a few more times. I would do not think it would be fair based on one meet. Sometimes people are anxious. I I can have a big personality, I could have been potentially intimidating. So I would probably give it. But if he said, What do you think about her? You know, I think that I would really have to think and say, you know, and I and I think it would be how does he phrase the question? And then I would really try to land softly but honest. But I think the big thing here is most people don't want unfiltered truth.

unknown 11:54

Yeah.

Katy Montgomery 11:55

I think that people can ask for it, but they don't want it, right? Most people want affirmation, most people want support. But I think maybe what I would try to do now that I'm thinking this out loud is well, why do you ask? Why does that matter? That's just push it back on him because I'd be like, You're a grown-ass man. Why do you care if I like her or not? Why does it matter? And if you said, Well, it really matters, or she's starting to get under my nerves, or I think there might be something wrong, then I'd pounce on that.

Justin Joseph 12:24

It reminds me of that episode of Roseanne, and I know Roseanne is so canceled, but back in the day it was really funny, and I still watch the old ones, and the Thanksgiving ones are the best when the mom comes in. The mom comes in and Jackie, you know, she clashes with her daughter and she goes, Oh, you got a new haircut. And Jackie goes, Oh, do you like it? She goes, What matters is that you do. And she turns around and wants to hilarious. Anyway, that's what you're talking about right there.

Katy Montgomery 12:49

Yeah, but I think I'd be like, you know, you know, I appreciate the question and that you you want my opinion, but why does it matter what I think? You know, and then I'd maybe what do you think? And I would just see if that could get us to a space, you know, or maybe that could be a way that I haven't said it, but the unsaid is enough.

Justin Joseph 13:07

Yeah, exactly. Um what's interesting to me is reading all of the reading the back reading on some of this is that um it's I I thought the research was interesting that people want brutal honesty if it's about feedback for them, but those same people do not want to give brutal honesty when it's feedback for someone else. I thought that was an interesting dichotomy that didn't make sense to me.

Katy Montgomery 13:26

Yeah, no. And I think what's interesting too is I think what's really interesting when I've done some work on um generational differences in corporations and I've done, you know, a program, because sometimes I'll get a call from like our age, like the Gen Xers, and they're like, the millennials and the Z's are driving me crazy, you know? And what's interesting is, you know, Zs really want constant feedback. They want, they want to have constant feedback, but they also want to see kind of like constant upward mobility, like what is the next thing? But they want constant feedback. And so I think that's interesting that in in the workplace, and I can tell you this from coaching people, people have a horrible time giving real legitimate feedback. But I think when it comes personal, right, when it comes about your looks, when it comes about your choice of significant others, um, you know, when it talks about life decisions, things that can kind of hit your character, not your skill set or your ability at work, I think that's when we've got to literally, you know, handle that with kindness. I think that hits a whole nother part of, you know, the ego and the self than kind of feedback on a work product.

Justin Joseph 14:40

I agree, but I also think there are some examples where brutal honesty, and I again want to couch that by saying brutal honesty without cruelty can also be appropriate. And one one example, and again, uh this is just based on Ringo that I did, um, is like for health and safety. If someone's if you know someone's um, let's say alcoholism, or you you notice someone's

Velvet Glove Vs Iron Fist

Justin Joseph 15:00

uh drinking too much or they're losing weight or they're an anorexic or something, there is a time for brutal brutal honesty without cruelty. I think do you agree with that situation? Maybe ending a relationship. Um I think finances when it comes in a relationship could be situations where you're spending too much money. Now that's not really br brutal, but how about I mean why do we have to use the word brutal?

Katy Montgomery 15:23

I mean, I think when words hurt, the message gets lost, right? So, you know, if somebody, um, I don't want to, you know, spoiler alert, but I, you know, I was watching um The Pit, and um, which is a great show, and it was so interesting because I'm coaching someone who does work in aspiration pneumonia, and there was an aspiration pneumonia case. And the reason this person had caught this pneumonia is because she was a bulimic and was constantly vomiting. And I thought the show did just an amazing job of saying, and and again, you could probably do that in a medical setting because it's very fact-based, it's very science, it's very objective, but really handled it with a kid glove because someone who is puking to stay at a certain weight, there's a lot of wrapped up in that, right? There is a lot of shame, emotions, embarrassment. Um, it's one of these hidden diseases. So I just don't think brutal. I think I just I try to think about when brutal honesty would work, and this is what comes to mind. If I had a stalker and I felt unsafe, I would probably say, get the beep beep away from me, you beep, beep.

Justin Joseph 16:32

You well at.

Katy Montgomery 16:33

Yes, I would be so brutal and nasty, but knowing my luck, the stalker would be like, oh, that turns me off.

Justin Joseph 16:40

But you know, my other thing of reaction to this is I mean, uh, you know, I I hate the woke stuff. I think woke went way too far. And taking brutal honesty, I think trying to to comfort people, to try and take the power out of brutal honesty. Again, brutal honesty without cruelty feels woke to me. There is a place for it.

Katy Montgomery 17:01

Yeah, I just, you know, I think again, very uncomfortable. No, yeah. I mean, you know, I'm I'm okay with honesty. I'm okay with not. And here's the thing.

Justin Joseph 17:11

But why can't it be brutal honesty without cruelty?

Katy Montgomery 17:14

Well, why can't it just be honesty, but we're not sugarcoating or we're not social cushioning, or you know, but we still have a concern for someone's feelings. I I mean, I think you are just ignoring the word brutal. I think brutal is cruel. I think brutal is violent. I think, you know, even think of like brutalist architecture. I mean, when you look at it, it is cold and you know, and and not warm. And I just am like, why can't we have concern for someone's feelings when we're delivering this information?

Justin Joseph 17:49

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's there, we we're you and I obviously still have some some space to make up between us, but I think we're closer, do you?

Katy Montgomery 17:58

I mean, yeah, but I'm scared I might cross you one day and what might come out of your mouth. Likewise, I don't have control over my mouth all the time, right?

Justin Joseph 18:07

Yeah, but the difference is I know you because I when you said I have I don't have a game, um, what'd you call it? Game face.

Katy Montgomery 18:14

Yeah.

Justin Joseph 18:14

Yeah, I I know that. I've seen that look before. It's like a vacant half smile, eyes are pushed back. Like, like I just know there's something that needs to be said, and you're about this close to saying it.

Katy Montgomery 18:26

Well, and you know what's really interesting about our friendship is like I I think I'm a really genuine friend, and I've got some really fantastic friends, but I think you and I have a level of honesty more than I have with most friends.

Justin Joseph 18:41

Yeah, like when you ask when you call, tell that story about when you called me. When I was I was still in the closet.

Katy Montgomery 18:49

So I'm studying for the bar exam. And the very first day you go to like the bar prep class, they're like, don't change anything. If you're using cocaine, keep using it. If you're married, stay married. If you're having an affair, keep it going. Your entire objective is like studying for the bar. And so, and I'm not a great studier. I'm absolutely absolutely a terrible, I just don't have the attention spam. So I was in the like last week being like, ah crap, I gotta learn like negotiable instruments and all this crap. And I called Justin and a guy picked up the phone and answered. And this is when we still use landlines, by the way. And the person answered and I said, May I speak with Justin, please? And he's like,

What People Really Want From Feedback

Katy Montgomery 19:30

Yeah. And um, and then Justin comes on the phone and I'm like, Who's that? He's like, Nobody, just a friend.

Justin Joseph 19:36

And I'm like, I said a roommate.

Katy Montgomery 19:38

A roommate. And I said, and it does he do you share a bed? Like, is he a bed?

Justin Joseph 19:42

Do you live in a one bedroom or two bedroom?

Katy Montgomery 19:46

I think I said, one bedroom or two bedroom. You said one bedroom. I'm like, does he sleep in your bed? And then you were like, Katy, I'm gay.

Justin Joseph 19:54

Let's no, you just it's not quite what happened. You just blurted it out. Justin, are you gay?

Katy Montgomery 20:00

I think that's pretty much how and then you said, Yes, let's call Nikki on three-way. And the thing that's so funny is I was studying, be studying for the bar, and I'm like, did he have a crush on this paternity brother? Did he like that person? Oh my gosh, was he gay then? And I was like, I should have waited until I took the bar exam. I spent so much brain power trying to break that down. But that's not, but I think with us, it's like, I don't know what it is. Like, I don't go to other friends and say, Gross, why are you wearing a sleeveless shirt and a gold chain? But I can do that with you. I don't know why.

Justin Joseph 20:34

All right, we'll come back on the other side. We'll wrap this up, take a few of your emails, and talk about um briefly about something that's been in the news lately. Um, we don't want to make this show the goal of it's never to be heavy, but there's been some interesting stuff on the Epstein files and how Melinda Gates had to respond to a question about her husband being involved in that. We'll see whether that was a right way forward on the other side. We'll be right back. Thanks for streaming Wrong Way Forward, the weekly reminder that advice is usually free for a reason. We call out bad advice wherever it hides boardrooms, break rooms, and even book clubs.

Katy Montgomery 21:04

Enjoying this dumpster fire? Like, subscribe, and check back every Thursday for new episodes. Want us to roast your favorite piece of nonsense? Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to include your contact info. We're not psychic, just judgmental. And now back to Wrong Way Forward.

Speaker 21:23

Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin.

Katy Montgomery 21:27

So we're back. Um so we're gonna wrap up um this concept of brutal honesty. I I hope that Justin has been convinced it's the wrong way forward. And I hope the idea is to be honest, but really have concern for others' feelings, and that there is a fine line between honesty and empathy, and that always the key is to balance with kindness. So again, we would love to hear. Um, first of all, if you engage with any WOATs, we'd love to hear more about the WOATs. Yes, all about your WOATs. Also, love to hear about um any communication issues you've had, any kind of terrible advice you've gotten. And again, you can email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. You can also engage with us on all our social media. Just um leave us a message and we'll make sure to respond.

Justin Joseph 22:18

And don't forget about our text line, 720-251-4450. You can text us, let us know whether you think one of us is wrong or right, or whether the advice we're giving is woe at worst of all time. We should make actually could probably rename the show that. A few viewer emails quickly from last week. Actually, just a couple I thought were interesting. Um, so funny how this um the bedweding thing really has has hit a cord with so many people. One person, Katy and Justin, I'm writing in solidarity with the anonymous camp bedwetter that letter unlocked memories. I had shoved so far down, I thought they were gone forever. I also arrived at camp with extra sheets, plastic mattress cover, and the quiet confidence of someone who knew they would be discovered. Um, the way you talk about bedwetters being elite crisis managers is correct. I can strip a bed in under 90 seconds, emotionally dissociated and gaslighted cabin of girls before breakfast. I'm now wildly successful in corporate America and I blame camp trauma. And then one other one, the bolo high tie still haunts me. This is in response to me getting a bolo tie from my grandfather.

Katy Montgomery 23:20

Justin, can you find a picture? Can you ask your mama to find a picture of you wearing this tie? That would be great for our viewers.

Justin Joseph 23:27

No, I would never have, I would never have worn that tie. I but I wish I would have kept that tie because I mean it was probably a very expensive bolo tie. Anyway, this person said, I don't know how I didn't know I had unresolved childhood issues until Justin mentioned the bolo tie. I was not the favorite child. I know this because one Christmas my sister got a PlayStation and I got a motivational book. I'm not not even a fun one, like Boundaries. I was 10. Okay, I wonder if that's true. But it does remind me that my sister-in-law's father, who is a psychiatrist for my birthday one year, gave me a book on like 10 steps to being a better happy person or something. And I was like, is this a message?

Katy Montgomery 24:04

That's kind of telling if a psychiatrist.

Justin Joseph 24:07

That was exactly I'm sure he didn't mean it that way, but that was literally, I can't remember. It was a book that everybody was reading. It was, it was, it was newly out in the market. Anyway, I same viewer. All right. So lastly, we're going to talk about something that's been in the

When Direct Truth May Save Lives

Justin Joseph 24:20

news lately. As many of you know, Bill Gates was wrapped up in all of the Epstein mess. His wife divorced him many years, and I don't I think that was always an open question whether this was part of it. I know there were some issues with the marriage, but yesterday, um, NPR asked her um when his name reappeared in all this recent release of this tranche of files what she thought about it. And this was her response.

Speaker 3 24:48

And there are a new alleged details about his past behavior, and I want to give you the opportunity to respond in whatever way you want to. Well, let me say this.

Speaker 2 25:05

I think we're having a reckoning as a society, right? Um girl, no girl should ever be put in the situation that they were put in by Epstein and whatever was going on with all of the various people around him. No girl, I mean, it it's just, it's beyond heartbreaking, right? I remember being those ages those girls were. I remember my daughters being those ages, right? So um for me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up, right? Because um brings back memories of some very, very painful times of my marriage, but I have moved on from that. I purposely pushed it away and I moved on. I'm in a really unexpected, beautiful place in my life. So whatever questions remain there of what I don't can't even begin to know all of it, those questions are for those people and for even my ex-husband. They Katy, right a wrong way forward to respond to that question or thoughts.

Katy Montgomery 26:14

Well, first of all, I think it's the wrong way forward to ask her that. It is, you know, it is the male Bill Gates who needs to be held accountable. But I thought this was could not have been a more perfect answer. And talking about brutal honesty, she could have literally gone savagely violent. And I think people probably would have allowed her to do that, right? She could have talked about this is disgusting, this is embarrassing, this is shameful, you know, this is indicative of the behavior we saw in our marriage. And I think the fact is that she really thought how it would land. I think she thought how it would land for her, potentially for him, for the father of her children, for her children. And I think she could not have answered this any better. I when I heard this, I was so impressed. And I think her not exaggerating or not going into a lot of detail, I think it leaves so much out there that people are like, you're right. And I think what I love is that she said, This is not my responsibility to answer for this. And I think I'm hoping that that message takes off. Absolutely beautiful. Wrong way forward to keep asking the women, the victims about this. Let's ask the men who have been implicated in this terrible, terrible mess.

Justin Joseph 27:33

And I agree with you 100%. I thought she handled it elegantly. I think her priority was her children. And um, yeah, I'm with you right way forward. Well, that's this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. We thank you guys.