28. Flexing Your Apology Muscle

What makes a real apology… actually work?

This week on Wrong Way Forward, Justin and Katy break down the anatomy of an apology—and why most people get it completely wrong.

Using everything from viral “apology tours” to Will Smith’s infamous Oscars moment, they unpack the difference between saying sorry and actually taking responsibility. Because spoiler: “I’m sorry you feel that way” is not it.

They dive into:

•  Why timing matters (and how waiting too long kills credibility) 
•  The difference between private repair and public performance 
•  What a genuine apology actually requires (hint: it’s not about being right) 
•  How to rebuild trust—and why most people skip this step entirely 
•  When it’s okay to not accept an apology at all 

If apologizing feels uncomfortable, awkward, or like something you avoid… you’re not alone. It’s a muscle—and most people never learn how to use it.

This episode gives you the framework to do it right.

Or at the very least… stop doing it wrong.

👉 Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Apologies Matter

Speaker 1 0:01

She's Katy Montgomery. He's Justin Joseph. These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with Wrong Way Forward. Now here's Katy and Justin.

Justin Joseph 0:12

Hi, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. I'm Justin Joseph here along with my best friend Katy Montgomery. This week, if you've been following us over the past couple of shows, we're talking about something that kind of popped its head up over the last couple of shows on the right and wrong way to apologize. And Katy, do you even remember what which what episode we were doing when we were talking about this? I don't offhand.

Katy Montgomery 0:32

I don't offhand either, but I think it it has come up multiple times. And I know that you've kind of always mentioned we should do a show on this. And so we have finally grabbed the bull by the horns and decided we're going to tell you the wrong way forward to apologize, the wrong way forward to actually accept an apology, and maybe even talk about when it's okay to not accept that apology. So we're going to walk through kind of all those scenarios today.

The Viral Kiss Cam Apology Tour

Justin Joseph 0:59

And I think there's a good topical jumping off point. I don't know if anybody's following. I mean, I I obviously follow Oprah, but this week Oprah sat down with the woman who was pictured in the cold cam kiss cam. Everybody remembers this was gosh, was it it was probably six months ago. Um the woman was there with her boss, um, Chris Martin of Coldplay, pans the audience, and they catch them in an embrace. The way the people panic. Does everybody remember this?

Katy Montgomery 1:25

We covered it on the show, Justin.

Justin Joseph 1:27

We did, and we both agreed that it was just wrong all around. Well, the woman is now speaking publicly to Oprah. She sat down on Oprah's podcast this week and basically she's on her apology tour. Now she says this is the one and only interview she's doing, and I think depending on your perspective, um, you will see her in a light, depending on how you look at these types of things, if that makes sense. I looked at her and I wanted to come through the camera. I think she's annoying as hell.

Katy Montgomery 1:53

Well, Justin, I do want to state that I love that this is her one and only interview. Maybe it's her only one-on-one video interview, but she did do an exclusive with the New York Times. So she did.

Justin Joseph 2:03

I didn't know.

Katy Montgomery 2:04

Yeah, she's shopping around. Yeah.

Justin Joseph 2:05

Yeah, 100%. So let's listen to what she tells Oprah this week about that viral moment, and then we'll come back on the other side and talk about it.

Speaker 2:12

You kept saying, I made a mistake. It was a mistake. I shouldn't have been out with my boss, but it wasn't a mistake that I deserved to die for. Correct. It wasn't a mistake that I deserved to have people coming up to me on the street and saying I should die because of it. It wasn't a mistake that deserved people threatening me and threatening my children. It was a mistake. So that's what you told me. That's right. Do you still feel that? It was it was a mistake.

Speaker 2 2:41

Absolutely. And I've been telling anyone that will listen. You know, I I own the poor decision that I made in that moment. And I've paid an unimaginable price for that. Um, I also, you know, that was why I chose to leave my job.

Justin Joseph 2:55

I think that gives you the flavor of what she's talking about there. She um says she's paid an unimaginable price. And again, you know, in researching for this show, I went back and looked at some of apologies. And it's fascinating because some people thought this was enough, and some women who have been on the other side of the KISS Cam thought that this apology was completely hollow.

Katy Montgomery 3:14

Well, I mean, what do you think, Justin? What's your take on it? I mean, you said you find her very annoying, so I'm thinking you're not going to see this in a positive light.

Justin Joseph 3:22

Well, I have to say, you know, there are some people that are just off-putting, and I may be one of those people to self-awareness. Yeah, but she just is off-putting. I mean, she is a if you listen, I listen to the more of the show, and she what she says is she started this basically high-tech startup with this man. They were in the trenches together, building this company. Obviously, sparks tend to fly when you're in those high impact environments. She said that um, you know, that that's kind of what gave it the precipice to all of this. She also says both of them were in troubled marriages, they were all separated, et cetera, et cetera. But my point is she's a smart, accomplished woman. And so to just say she was caught up in this, I think is not only the wrong way forward, but it's it rings hollow.

Katy Montgomery 4:06

Well, I think this is really interesting is what is the intention of the apology, right? So she's saying, I made a mistake. And so is the intention of the apology to say, leave me alone, is the intention of the apologies, apology to say, let's put an end to this. It is interesting, like this is becoming old news, but going on Oprah's podcast, and I'm assuming Oprah has millions upon millions of followers, and so this is going to be duplicated on her social media channels, it's coming back to light. It's still staying relevant. So I would be really interested and interested to know what was the intention of this apology. Was it to actually apologize? Was it to say, leave me alone? Was it to make a comment about how women and men are treated differently? Is it to say we do not have appropriate um, you know, consequences, you know, based on actions that basically our sense of community and what people can say, you know, on social media and threatening things like death and making kind of negative comments is now becoming the norm in our community. What was the intention? I I don't that's what I don't understand.

Justin Joseph 5:13

Yeah, I think if you listen to more of the podcast, she talks about the intention, I think, is to try and reclaim some of her power, her agency, if you will. Um, because I think she feels like that's been taken from her. Um, but to me, the other thing that rang hollow about the apology is she never once mentions the other man's wife, you know, not once showing some empathy for saying, yeah, we were both separated. But I also realize how much getting caught on cold plays, cold cam hurt this other man's wife and the family. Never one once mentioned that. And to me, that's that's that's where it fails.

Katy Montgomery 5:46

But you know, that's interesting, Justin, because I mean, I even remember this from college, you know, when we knew of people who cheated on their girlfriends or boyfriends. And people were always blaming the other woman. And you know, yes, you could say she has a moral compass, she has kind of um, you know, ethical boundaries, and that this did hurt another woman. What I think is interesting is when you're saying that is that she doesn't necessarily owe that bond. She doesn't necessarily have that connection and commitment. She didn't take the vows with that woman. That I think, to be completely honest, really rests with the man.

Justin Joseph 6:23

Well, this is so interesting. Oh, okay. I was like, this is not the feminist Katy Montgomery, I know. And there we did the full circle.

Katy Montgomery 6:31

Think about it, right? I mean, like, yes, generally, if you have a strong moral compass, you're not going to, you know, cheat. You know, you won't be engaged with people who are otherwise, you know, engaged with someone else. But at the end of the day, that's his relationship. He is the one who has made the commitment. He's the one who's broken the vow. So why is she being held to that standard and he's not?

Justin Joseph 6:55

Okay. Well, I think that's very fair to um to respond to me, because I do think you're right. I automatically want to hate her because she's the one that did this. Having said that, I still think she owes, they both owe that woman an apology. They both owe her husband an apology. Would you agree with that statement?

Katy Montgomery 7:11

I mean, yeah, yeah. And I mean, to be completely honest, there's children involved here too. You know, and it's, you know, and that's really heartbreaking for these children is that you're seeing the dissolution of your parents' marriage, and you know, and you're seeing that chaos, but then you're having to go to school and to work and to your after-school activities, and everyone knows your family business, right? And there's this level of shame around it. So I think there's a big apology to their children. But I also think

Private Repair Versus Public Performance

Katy Montgomery 7:40

the question here is was it the wrong way forward to have a public apology? Like, how much does it mean when you are not a, you know, public figure, and neither one of these people are considered public figures? You know, was this the appropriate way to apologize, or would that have been a lovely, thoughtful note, like handwritten letter note to, you know, his wife? Would that have been sitting down the children and saying, you know, this was inappropriate? I am sorry that you've become, you know, an object of kind of hatred and shame. You know, I apologize. This is not the behavior that I hope, you know, that is a standard and that I have, you know, set for all of you. Is this appropriate to go on to Oprah? I that's my question.

Justin Joseph 8:28

Well, I totally agree. I mean, that you know, you automatically doubt the woman's motives by six months later. I mean, if she had done this two weeks later, three weeks later, I think if you would have involved a PR crisis team, they would have said, get out there and get in front of it. She is way behind it. So, all, like you said, she is doing is re-igniting the dragon. And here we are talking about it.

Katy Montgomery 8:47

It is. And let's let's be honest. The New York Times article comes out. You know, Oprah and her producers are reading it. They're probably calling her, they're in negotiations, they're going back and forth. You know, again, this is not just driven by this woman, but this is driven by our thirst for um salacious news, for feeding the dragon, for Oprah trying to be like, I've got the exclusive video. And so, you know, everybody's, you know, intentions are a little muddled here, right? They're not all honest and pure.

Justin Joseph 9:21

100%. And if you remember when we covered this the initial time, um, I have a friend who it lives in the high-tech startup world. She is a high-powered executive in that world. And I don't know if you remember me saying this, she knew the man in the she knew this other, the other man. She had been at a conference with him, and she he made moves on her, allegedly. Um, and so when she saw him on the Coldplay Kiss Camp, she's like, oh my gosh, that's so and so. And that immediately resonated with her. I remember at the conference. So this guy obviously, or at least some women would claim that he's a big horn dog. So there you go. There's your there's feminist Justin throwing it all on

Will Smith And A Late Apology

Justin Joseph 10:00

him.

Katy Montgomery 10:01

There's your technical term. But again, to get back to we're talking about what is the wrong way forward with apologies, and moving to another perfect example, which is based on the slap part around the world, is when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Oscars. And this was a few years ago. But this still, to me, is the prime example of the wrong way forward when apologizing. So, first of all, he did not apologize in real time.

Justin Joseph 10:28

Well, let's take it up on the other side. We're at the end of our break or end of our first segment. So we'll take that up on the other side. We'll be back right after this.

Katy Montgomery 10:34

Right. You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward, where bad advice goes to die, and then gets resurrected just so we can roast it again.

Justin Joseph 10:42

If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes.

Katy Montgomery 10:47

Have a new topic or some disastrously bad advice you want to dissect? Email wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Include your contact info.

Justin Joseph 10:57

Now back to Wrong Way Forward.

Speaker 1 10:59

Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin Podcast.

Justin Joseph 11:03

Here we are. We're back here on Wrong Way Forward this week. Katy and I are chatting offline about um our technology issues. So, Katy, when we left, you were talking about Will Smith.

Katy Montgomery 11:12

Yes, but probably the worst Wrong Way Forward apology of all time. So, you know, everybody's pretty familiar with this. At the Oscars a few years ago, Will Smith slapped Chris Rock in front of everyone.

Justin Joseph 11:24

Um I was let me just take you back that moment. I of course go to bed early, but I watch TV on my phone without my contact. So my phone is literally like this. And like, and so I was in bed and I was like, What? What? So I immediately text down or call down Josh. I'm like, are you watching this? So I actually got out of bed. It's been one of like three times in history that I actually got out of bed and came back down to discuss this.

Katy Montgomery 11:46

And it was, you know, most of the audience, everyone was just aghast. I mean, people were frozen.

Justin Joseph 11:53

We're just did you were you, did you watch it?

Katy Montgomery 11:55

I did. I watched it. And let me tell you, I've never been a massive Will Smith fan, but I love me some Chris Rock. I've seen him live. I watch every show. I think he is just brilliant. And I'm like, you know, first of all, just in a pissing match between those two, I would hands over choose Chris Rock. But Will Smith's behavior was violent, inappropriate, unprofessional. He wasn't able to get a hold of his emotions. But what's interesting is let's talk about the actual apology. So, first of all, it was four months later. So it wasn't timely. Number two, it was done by YouTube video. So I think that's very kind of self-aggrandizing. I'm very important. And I want to read to you the exact language. Chris, I apologize to you. My behavior was unacceptable, and I am here whenever you are ready to talk. And, you know, first of all, I appreciate the apology, but what I think is interesting is he left it kind of in Chris Rock's court. You know, the ball is now in his court. And, you know, and that is putting the onus and burden on him, but also it's changing the discussion. And so then what happens? Everybody, the media, you know, the um the little community, the culture goes after Chris Rock and is like, what do you think? And so it's no longer

What A Genuine Apology Requires

Katy Montgomery 13:20

about the apology, it's kind of shifting the burden. I found that to be one of the worst apologies of all time. And I think it helps give us some, you know, kind of examples of what we should and should not do. And I was reading an article in Harvard Health, and I thought this was really interesting. They say to have a true, genuine apology, you need to let go of concerns about right and wrong. And it's trying to understand the other person's experience. And so what I think is so interesting is that's one of the hardest things to do is to let go of concerns about right or wrong. And the idea is that you really should validate the other person's emotions. And then you promise to make amends. So what I keep hearing about is like, I am sorry you were offended. I am sorry that you know that this didn't land well on you. I, you know, I'm sorry that you don't understand. That to me is still holding on to concerns of right or wrong. That is, I'm right, but I will acknowledge your emotion. And I do not think that is a sufficient apology.

Justin Joseph 14:31

So basically, in order for to you have an efficient apology, you've got to basically let go of that.

Katy Montgomery 14:36

And it's just and then you need to promise to make amends. And I think that's what we're not seeing a lot. What does that mean?

Justin Joseph 14:44

Because that I I I I recoil at that immediately. I mean, I am a big apologist. I really I think if I've learned anything in 53 years, it's the biggest growth thing I've had is that I've learned how to apologize. And um, but I don't know that I would be like, let me make this right. I don't know that I think that's like an extra, that's like a cherry on top of the apology. And I don't think I need that.

Katy Montgomery 15:06

We're talking about what's the you know, what what is the really the way to apologize? So here would be an example, Justin, and we've talked about this on this podcast, is when you posted that heinous picture of me looking all roly-poly on the couch wearing workout clothes.

Justin Joseph 15:22

Episode that was like episode seven, people for our first professional fight, if you're if you're keeping track.

Katy Montgomery 15:26

Yes, on social media, and you said, I apologize. The amends would be, Katy, I will no longer in the future post pictures of you without your permission. Or if something falls into these following categories, I will know that it is not safe to post, right? It is it is showing the lesson learned, and it's showing in the future, I'm going to build trust.

Justin Joseph 15:49

Okay. I thought it was more like reparations. I will not post this picture and I'm going to buy you dinner next week.

Katy Montgomery 15:56

That sounds like a plan.

Justin Joseph 15:58

Or I'm going to use AI and regenerate this picture in a way that's flattering, right?

Katy Montgomery 16:03

Yes. I mean, like in a ball gown. Yes. Yes. So, but they say the other thing is it's the big part of apology is no evading, blaming, making excuses, or dredging up offenses from the past. So the idea is you don't want to rationalize your behavior, you want to own it. And then the big thing here is you want to restore trust. Usually when you're having to apologize, that kind of chain, that link of trust is broken. And so if you don't, you know, if you don't look at it as right or wrong, and instead you kind of really own the behavior and you don't try to rationalize it and you say that you're going to do better in the future, that is the way to rebuild trust. And that is why apologies are necessary. And that's why good ones, you know, actually go through those steps. Because if not, you're not rebuilding the trust. And if you don't rebuild the trust, then we start to read into everything, right? Again, going back to our brains are clever and do you no favors.

Justin Joseph 16:58

100%. And I also think I always think apologies are a muscle that you have to exercise. Do you know what I mean? Like they get, it's if you do it often, and we all have reasons to apologize, probably in our everyday life, they really get easier. I mean, when Josh and I have a fight, I really do take a moment at every fight and I say, Is this fight worth it? Am I wrong? And if I'm wrong, I'm jumping on an apology in two seconds. Like, you know what? I this is not worth fighting, and I'm wrong here.

Katy Montgomery 17:24

Well, and that's very emotionally, I think, mature.

Justin Joseph 17:27

That's one of my few emotionally mature qualities.

Katy Montgomery 17:30

There you go. Well, own that, Justin. Um, and I thought this was really interesting. There is a a book by kind of the, you know, it's called Doc Dr. Lerner, isn't that interesting? His last name's Lerner. Um, but Why You Don't Apologize. And it said, and there's this quote that I thought was really beautiful. If only our passion to understand others were as great as our passion to be understood. Were this so, all of our apologies would be truly meaningful and healing.

Speaker 2 18:00

I love that.

Katy Montgomery 18:01

And so this goes back to kind of empathy. You're trying to understand why the other person's hurt, not why you should be understood for having done that. And I think that really is emotionally mature and being able to step outside of it and really understand how it impacted the other person. Yeah. And I think Will Smith, in his apology, again, just you know, beating the dead horse on this is the wrong way forward, is you know, he came off as self-serving. He, you know, he wanted to be understood as someone who apologized and was taking responsibility rather than how did that land on literally physically and literally, how did that land on Chris Rock? That was humiliating, that was embarrassing, that was emasculating. You know, it it really took away, you know, a sense of power and really trying to understand what it was like to be in his shoes. And and it failed miserably. And so my guess would be is that Will Smith has not restored trust with Chris Rock.

Justin Joseph 18:58

The apology was clapped.

Katy Montgomery 18:59

Never be trust again.

Justin Joseph 19:00

100%. I also think it's about stakes. The higher the stakes, the apology has to follow that. And so, like you look at not only Will Smith, I mean, the stakes for him were so big for that apology. And so the apology had to rise up and it didn't meet that stakes because his career's on the line. Same with this woman. Six months later. Why is she doing this? Because the stakes are big. She obviously has not got what she wanted wherever she is in her life, and so she's having to come back and now do a public apology tour. So I do think there's an issue of how the stakes go with it. On the other side, let's talk about is it ever okay not to accept an apology? We'll talk about that when we come back on Wrong Way Forward. Thanks for streaming Wrong Way Forward, the weekly reminder that advice is usually free for a reason. We call out bad advice wherever it hides, boardrooms, break rooms, and even book clubs.

Katy Montgomery 19:47

Enjoying this dumpster fire? Like, subscribe, and check back every Thursday for new episodes. Want us to roast your favorite piece of nonsense? Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to include your contact info. We're not psychic, just judgmental. And now back to Wrong Way Forward.

Speaker 1 20:06

Roasting the worst

Accepting Apologies And Setting Boundaries

Speaker 1 20:07

advice ever.

Katy Montgomery 20:07

Welcome back to the Katy and Justin. And we're back. And Justin teased, you know, we've been talking about what is the wrong way forward and potentially the right way forward to apologize. When is it acceptable to not accept an apology? So, Justin, you know, when I posed that question to you, is there ever a time when you should not accept an apology?

Justin Joseph 20:26

You know, I don't know that I've ever been in a position where I have not accepted an apology. Um I I think for me, because I have been through some big things in my life, family stuff and other stuff where the apologies, the stakes were so high that, you know, it really had an emotional or a physical and an emotional impact on me not to accept apologies or not to give an apology. And so um, you know, I think if you read the research, it says stuff like if the apology is not genuine or if there's not a change of behavior, there are circumstances where you may not want to apologize, but I'm a big fan of accepting it. And then you that person doesn't have to be in your life, but you can still accept it. Does that make sense?

Katy Montgomery 21:04

Yeah, but I mean, I I think that's interesting. Like, what does the word acceptance mean? Is that as simple a is that as simple as I accept your apology, or is acceptance really accepting it? Like building back the trust, understanding that that person, you know, is contrite. Like what does acceptance mean?

Justin Joseph 21:22

Yeah, but I think that if if you get into a situation where there is an apology needed and it's a serious apology, you're always going to have that in the back of your mind, right? And so you can accept the apology, but you do have to have the conversation. Is this a person who could hurt me again? Would this person do me again, which uh hurt me again, which goes back to your thing on trust? I think if it's some core belief in you, you don't you feel like this person could do that again or would hurt you again, then you you you can accept the apology and then just move on without them.

Katy Montgomery 21:49

Yeah, I think I disagree. I think that there are some situations where there needs to be a very strong boundary. And uh and I also think that it is a little bit disingenuous to accept. An apology if you aren't truly in an acceptance mode. And, you know, and I think that there could be times when, you know, that exists. You know, kind of going back to previous episodes we've had, is I a lot of times see this is when ghosting can happen.

Justin Joseph 22:15

Yeah, that's me.

Katy Montgomery 22:16

And I don't see myself as a kind of frequent ghoster, but I know when my mother passed away, um, and it was a shock. She was um on a morning walk and was killed by um a driver under the influence. He hit her body with his car. Um, there were people who really stepped up. And and I really, my my dad, I remember saying, like, you and your siblings have some amazing people in your life. Like it was one of the things he was most proud of is kind of seeing that community come around. But there were some people who just didn't show up. And, you know, and I had one particular friend and a very close friend, and we are still close, but I just was so upset with him and how he showed up at that time that I just kept ignoring him. And finally, what I appreciate is that he really persevered with the apology and said, Katy, we have to get together and we have to talk about this because if we don't get past this, it's going to continue to fester and we'll never repair the trust. But I found that sometimes when I was like, I was just making decisions where I'm like, I've got this fantastic group of people around me. I don't need to be engaging and spending time with people who, you know, and there's an exception to people who didn't have the ability to show up, but people who did not kind of show up for me. I'm like, you know what, I've got enough friends. And so, you know, I don't think that's the mature way, but I think you can see that a lot of times where it's like it's just avoidance because it's so uncomfortable because you're not ready to accept the apology, and so it just fizzles out.

Justin Joseph 23:51

Interesting. So you're basically saying, um, yeah, so basically you're saying if you can't forgive and forget, then you're not really ready to accept the apology.

Katy Montgomery 23:59

Yeah, I mean, definitely. And I think again, kind of going back to this, is that you have to let go of concerns of right and wrong when you apologize. My guess is the same for accepting the apology, right? Like if you are so stuck that it's like I am right and you are wrong, you probably can't accept it.

Justin Joseph 24:17

100%. Um, I think that also brings up another good episode is on boundaries. You know, you called it ghosting. I call I mean you called it boundaries. I call I do call it ghosting. Isn't that the same thing? We'll talk about that on a future episode.

Katy Montgomery 24:30

I mean, boundaries are tough. Boundaries are tough. So that could be that could be multiple episodes.

Justin Joseph 24:35

Yeah, and I feel like that's a word I just learned in my late 40s, 50s. It's almost overused, but anyway, that's a

Listener Prompts And How To Reach Us

Justin Joseph 24:42

future episode. Well, that's this week's episode at Wrongway Forward. If you um like our show, please comment. Of course, you can always call our or text our tip line at uh 720 251 4450. Katy, why don't you give our handles and take us out?

Katy Montgomery 24:56

Yeah, and you can also send us an email. We love to hear from you at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. And you can also engage with us on social media. We're on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. And we'd love to hear what you have to say on our YouTube channel where you can see us live. Um, we always love chatting with y'all. And here's us signing off from the Wrong Way Forward.

Justin Joseph 25:18

All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. Remember, the only thing worse than taking bad advice is giving it.

Katy Montgomery 25:25

If you've liked what you've heard, like, subscribe, or follow us wherever you stream podcasts. And if you've got a topic or need some advice, we'll probably regret giving, email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com.

Justin Joseph 25:39

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward.