36. Sh!tting Yourself for Enlightenment. What is Ibogaine?

This week on Wrong Way Forward, Katy and Justin dive headfirst into the wild world of psychedelic healing drugs — from ayahuasca and ibogaine to ketamine and MDMA therapy. Inspired by a New York Times story about a journalist traveling to Mexico for a 12-hour ibogaine trip, the two debate whether these mind-altering experiences are the right way forward… or just a really expensive way to hallucinate while vomiting into a bucket.

Katy is fascinated by the idea of unlocking trauma, healing PTSD, and discovering an “unmarred” version of yourself. Justin? He’s mostly concerned about seeing demons, losing control, and publicly pooping himself in front of strangers.

The conversation spirals into Aaron Rodgers, celebrity breakdowns, Britney Spears, ketamine therapy, bad vacation priorities, and the terrifying possibility that psychedelics might actually work.

Would you try a drug that could completely change your life… if it also came with a 12-hour hallucination, heart monitors, and possible diarrhea?

Hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes of Wrong Way Forward.

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:00

She's Katy Montgomery. He's Justin Joseph. These best friends are serving subpoenas to bad advice weekly with Wrong Way Forward. Now here's Katy and Justin.

Katy Montgomery 0:11

Hi everyone. My name is Katy Montgomery, and I'm here with my best friend Justin Joseph. And this is an episode of Wrong Way Forward, where we roast advice and tell you whether or not what you're doing is right or wrong.

Justin Joseph 0:23

And give you exam, give you ideas for things you could be doing that may be right and maybe wrong. And that's today's topic.

Katy Montgomery 0:30

Correct. So today we're going to talk about, and it's what Nancy Reagan told us as youth not to do drugs. So we're going to talk about drugs. And I want to start with I I found this guy, I want to meet him. I thought he was amazing. He's a New York Times reporter. Um, he wrote an article for the New York Times, but he was also featured and interviewed on The Daily. And his name is Robert Draper. And what he did is he went and took a drug called Ibogaine. And he named it kind of as a game-changing drug. The idea is that this drug is used to help with PTSD, used to help with addiction, cognitive decline. They've even seen it used in ALS, Parkinson, and Alzheimer's. But it is from a West African shrub in Gabon. And basically what happened was in the 1970s there was a man, he was a heroin addict, and um and his he just could not. There we go. It felt like an airplane was flying.

Justin Joseph 1:41

Well, I was like, what? I was like, is that on my side?

unknown 1:44

I don't know.

Justin Joseph 1:44

But what was that? Was that over there at the beach?

Katy Montgomery 1:48

I I mean, I don't think it was here, but I at first I thought, did I take some of that ibaine? Because anyway, it was a 1970s heroin addict. He had just gotten to the very end. He's like, there's nothing else works. And he used this and it cured him. And so the idea is that it affects the neuroplasid in your brain and it opens up part of your brain so you can move past the trauma, so you can move past um the potential addiction. And it was a fantastic article which got Justin and I started talking about what do we think isn't the wrong way forward to participate in these kinds of drugs? And so these are things like Wyahasca, MDMA, some people might even say ketamine is in that category, or ibogaine, which are considered illegal, but you can go to certain places, i.e., outside of the United States, and try these things. And I'm very curious. So, Justin, what do you think?

Justin Joseph 2:46

Um, well, I I found this fascinating. We're gonna listen to some of his account of it. Um, but you know, I I this I between this and ayahuasca, I mean, they just fascinate me. So basically, these are long hallucination drugs, is my understanding of them. Um, people who have done them swear by them. Um, I read an article once on the someone on ayahuasca who was said that he saw the devil and saw Christ, which I thought was really interesting. And he said his entire trip, for lack of a better word, was trying to understand the interplay between the two of them, but he actually saw those two, which I thought was fascinating. That was a really good article. This one was interesting to me because this guy had trauma involving his family, right, Katy?

Katy Montgomery 3:27

Yes, his brother. He had a brother who was um incredibly violent, um, was abusive, and really hijacked the family. And it had some kind of lingering, you know, effects on him and his confidence and how he held himself in the world.

Justin Joseph 3:42

So he wanted to try this drug, and so he found a clinic in Mexico that provides it. And I think the guy who put the clinic on is got is some tech something, but has a lot of money and went down and opened a clinic. So he flies down to Mexico. Um, I think he said there's 11 people that were that had signed up for this. And I went on their site, and you can go on the site and find it. Um, I think it's an $8,000 uh cost to join this clinic. And so he goes down, they were picked up um, I think the night before they had a dinner or something to that effect. And the next and later, I think that the event, for lack of a better word, starts at 11 o'clock. He talks about how he went into a room and there were mattresses on the floor for all 11 of them. He talked about the other people that were with him or people that had been dealing with PTSD from um war injuries, that kind of thing. Um, but here's how he describes the drug. We're gonna hear him a few a few different takes talk about um how he his experience. But this is what he described the drug as.

Speaker 4:43

Um, you know, again, Perry like cinema emphasized to me that this was nobody's idea of a party drug. It was a very, very powerful substance.

Speaker 4 4:54

And I want to get into the power of that substance. Tell me about Ibogaine. What is it and how does it work?

Speaker 5:02

Sure. It's a psychedelic, a drug that is derived from a natural source, actually from the bark of a West African shrub known as uh Tabernanth eboga, found principally in the country of Gabon and used in initiation ceremonies in that and other African countries. But it had been circulating in Europe and uh the United States, really going back to the 1940s, particularly so roughly around 1970, when a heroin addict named Howard Lotsoff, kind of chasing the next high, had an opportunity to try to.

Justin Joseph 5:40

And that's what you were talking about, Katy. But um anyway, these tribes, I guess, have been doing it for a thousand years. These are all natural drugs, meaning that you know a lot of the drugs out on the open market are cut with various things that make them dangerous. This is something that is completely natural, is my understanding.

Katy Montgomery 5:54

Is that your well, and I think what's interesting is he mentioned two names at the beginning, Cinema and Perry. That refers to Senator Cinema from Arizona and Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas. And both of these people have been advocates for this drug because they have heard through basically veterans. Um, so people who have, you know, gone through war and are dealing with it, you know, debilitating PTSD who have gone, and I think both of them have participated in this. So this is how he kind of knew of it and that it was vetted. But I do think it's interesting that he said it's, you know, I think people hear the word drug and you know, and they think hallucinations and they think, oh, you're on mushrooms or acid, you're at a Grateful Dead concert, you're at a fish concert, you're having a good time. And they're like, it's no walk in the park. Like it is, um, it doesn't just affect your brain and the visuals, it actually affects your body. And it's the same thing with Wayaska. I mean, you can have, you can puke, um, you can have stomach pains, you can have terrible diarrhea. Um, and so it's it's again not a walk in the park. So I think people need to kind of understand that this is this is not a party drug.

Justin Joseph 7:08

And here's how he describes that, the experience itself.

Speaker 7:11

So I sat there and I started, you know, rattling the Morocco along to the music, and I felt a little bit goofy doing this. And so after maybe 45 seconds or so, I decided that I would stop. I also noticed I was beginning to get lightheaded. We were all equipped with these very heavy-duty eye masks. So I lay back and slid on my eye mask, and the moment I did so, the hallucinations began in earnest.

Speaker 3 7:38

This is your first inkling, it sounds like, that okay, this trip is really underway.

Speaker 7:43

Yes, and and as I even mentioned that, I'm actually getting goosebumps because it remains so present to me, the sensation of realizing this is not at all what my imagination or what any of the available information had told me it would be.

Speaker 3 8:03

I'm dying to know.

Speaker 8:04

Here's an example of what he said. Yeah, well, the first were like a film strip, like six images, and they were all of what appeared to be tribal chiefs, and then those images dissolved, and then they were replaced by new images. And I don't remember all of them, but I remember very distinctly, but some of them were quite troubling. There was a battlefield, and there were bodies drawn across a battlefield. There was another one of what looked to be a lot of starving children, and all of these were static images, but then the next image that came up was the only one that was not static, which was a pile of rocks, and then these long black snakes slithering out of the rocks.

Justin Joseph 8:51

Okay, and I would have had a heart attack right there. Um, anyway, so it gives you an idea. It's a hallucination. He says he doesn't remember. I think he said he remembers about a third. This took place over 12 hours, right? He has these hallucinations over 12 hours. He remembers about a third of it. Um, and I I'm I'm still trying to understand why it's cathartic and why all these people come out changed. He'll talk about that in our last clip in a minute, but basically it lets you see your life as you were meant to be, is my understanding. Is that what yours?

Katy Montgomery 9:18

Yeah, I think so. You know, I have a really good friend, one of my best friends from law school. His his wife is basically a Wyahaska practitioner. Like she she's the one who kind of like runs these and manages these. So I think he's done it three or four times. And what's interesting is I think he has a deeper level and a more intimate kind of understanding of himself every time each time he does. It's almost like exponentially kind of increases. Um, but he comes out um the words that I would use is like at peace, at balance, you know, a contentment, a kind of understanding, you know, like may maybe like a an itch that's been scratched, you know.

Justin Joseph 10:00

We should have him on the show.

Katy Montgomery 10:01

Yeah, or even have her because she kind of, you know, oh yeah, let's have her.

Justin Joseph 10:05

That'd be true.

Katy Montgomery 10:06

Those kind of ceremonies. But so you know, I I think what's interesting, and and I kind of I'm really torn. I am so curious, and I really want to be like, what would I see? What would I feel like afterwards?

Justin Joseph 10:22

Would you see your mother or your father?

Katy Montgomery 10:23

Would that be or what are the possibilities? Then there's part of me that it's like, I don't want to puke and doke in front of anyone. Like I'm terrified I'm gonna shit my pants in the middle of this, you know, much less. I mean, we're bedwetters, I'm sure are gonna piss my face. And so I'm I'm mortified of that. But then I'm also scared about what I might see. And I don't know if you remember this, Justin. It's when when I was student body president, you were vice president, there was some kind of event and they brought in a hypnotist.

Justin Joseph 10:52

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katy Montgomery 10:53

And they put me on stage and I just falled it because I was so scared that in front of the entire student body, I was gonna say something like, I'm a virgin. I was so terrified. So I'm also terrified about what I'm gonna see. Like, could I be the 10% that doesn't have an awakening, but instead, you know, awful. Because here's the thing, I I think this is still somewhat risky behavior, correct? I mean, it's I mean, it's not completely regulated. You know, you're having to go to a foreign country, you know, to do Ibogain. So I'm really torn on what's the right way forward for me or what's the wrong way forward for me when it comes to using a potent, you know, really big-time psychedelic.

(Cont.) Ibogaine: Miracle Cure Or Bad Idea

Justin Joseph 11:47

We'll take that up on the other side, whether to do or not to do Ibogain. We'll be right back.

Katy Montgomery 11:51

You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward, where bad advice goes to die, and then gets resurrected just so we can roast it again.

Justin Joseph 11:59

If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and subscribe and come back every Thursday for new episodes.

Katy Montgomery 12:04

Have a new topic or some disastrously bad advice you want to dissect? Email wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Include your contact info.

Speaker 2 12:14

Now back to Wrong Way Forward. Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin podcast.

Justin Joseph 12:20

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward, where we're talking about something that's fascinated me for some time. You know, we've heard about ayahuasca, Aaron Rodgers, the football player's done it and swears by it. Everyone that I know of has done it and sworn by it, except this one that I talked about at the beginning who saw the devil and it scared the hell out of him. Um we're talking about IBegain, which is the new version of this this week. And um, again, it's like a 12-hour trip. You go down to Mexico. Um, this guy says apparently they hook you up to heart monitors, which is interesting to me. I'm like, that scares me.

Katy Montgomery 12:51

If you have like an arrhythmia or something, like they you have to be kind of medically cleared for something. I also want to say Aaron Rogers doing this is by no means a great endorsement. This guy's anti-vaccine. So let's just let's, you know, that puts it in the no column for me. So we need to find some more people like Robert Draper, who I think are well educated and focused.

Justin Joseph 13:13

Right. And on that note, Robert Draper in our next clip talks about um the experience we talked about, we had talked about that. He he had had a lot of trauma, something involved his brother, and at the end of his hallucination, the brother comes up and we'll let him describe what that was like.

Speaker 4 13:28

What were your feelings when you saw, for example, the images of your family or of you in this kind of confident state?

Speaker 13:38

I remember I had the capacity to say that's that's an unmarred version of me. That's that's a me um I recognize and yet that I haven't seen before.

Justin Joseph 13:51

I think that that really sums it up. That that what the positive outcome of for him was is that you see an unmarred version of yourself, the version of yourself that you were meant to be before trauma and life experience and all of that. And so that's interesting to me.

Katy Montgomery 14:07

Oh, I think it's I think it's super interesting. And I'm I'm wondering, he it's interesting when he talks about his journey. He had been on a wait list and then he got, I guess, a call and he ended up like going over Thanksgiving. Um, and so you know, part of me is like, I I I can tell you this much, I would never be able to do it completely on my own. I would not go down with a group of strangers. Like I would have to do. You or my sister, or like not me. I mean, you would not be, you would not be much support. As soon as I shat my pants, you would you would tell everyone in the room.

Justin Joseph 14:44

That's the other thing. The guy says he's like, you know, you're in the middle of hallucination, and he's like, the only time you really come out of it is because you can hear other people vomiting, and in your case, you shitting yourself. And then you just drift right back into your hallucination.

Katy Montgomery 14:56

I mean, I'd probably be a double barrel shotgun. I would probably be pooping and puking. I mean, it would probably be horrific. But I I could, I, I would never have the nerve to go by myself. Like, I would have to have someone that I knew there, first of all, to experience it with me because I would have to debrief about it for months. Yeah, and I would need to have someone who would have some frame of reference because you know, if I was talking to somebody, I it would so um it's I just wouldn't do it.

Justin Joseph 15:23

I couldn't. I'm too much of a scaredy cat.

Katy Montgomery 15:25

And and I think it's the control for you.

Justin Joseph 15:28

Yeah. Oh god. I just I'm afraid what it would show.

Katy Montgomery 15:32

I well, I mean, me too. So I mean, I and I think I could see myself doing um why ayahuasca before this IVA game.

Justin Joseph 15:42

Because if you had the your sister and you went, would you do it?

Katy Montgomery 15:47

You know, here's the thing. I I think that I would lean towards yes. Like I think right now I would probably be like a seven and a half. And I think maybe it's because I have this good friend from law school who's done it multiple times and I trust him and I find him to be um smart and complicated and interesting, and you know, and when he kind of debriefs on it. But I mean, I'm I'm I'm not a solid 10.

Justin Joseph 16:12

I mean, there's still kind of, you know, it's like when I go by go to a theme park, I'm like, oh yeah, I'll ride the roller coaster and then I get in line and then I say closer. I'm like, I'm not effing doing this. There's just no way it's a good thing.

Katy Montgomery 16:22

See, and I've you know, I've jumped out of an airplane. I was the kid who like jumped off the high dive. I'm like, once I kind of say I'm gonna do it, I'm like, you know, I don't want to back out. But I mean, this would be, you know, a commitment. I think also here's the thing, right? When I think both of us are the same way, you know, like we just booked um, you know, a trip, and I'm like, I want to stay, oh my gosh, there's the airplane again. Um, but you know, I want to stay at a particular hotel and I want to, you know, have cocktails here. I've got limited vacation time. Do I want to go somewhere and crap myself or do I want to have a $24 martini at a fancy bar?

Justin Joseph 17:04

On the beach.

Katy Montgomery 17:06

On the beach. I mean, you know, it I mean, life's a life's a bunch of decisions, right?

Justin Joseph 17:10

Yeah, I didn't I'm a hundred percent with you, and I would not, I I'm officially a no on Ibogaine and Ihawaska for those reasons as well. I mean, they sound like it's some uh he said it was a nice resort, I think, didn't he? It's like right over the border.

Katy Montgomery 17:23

Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's nice. I mean, I think it's got some, it's kind of probably a little sterile because it's it's got kind of a leaning towards a hospital. But here's the thing, you know, they're now using MDMA. So I think the book that I read was called The Tell about a girl who had completely, I mean, it's brutal, this book, but she had completely blocked out sexual abuse in like high school, like did not recall it and like comes back, you know, and it starts to come. And I think she was the one, I read so many books, they all kind of blur together, but I think she did some MDMA therapy, which isn't that like Molly, or isn't that like I've done some MDMA therapy as well. Oh, you have?

Justin Joseph 18:00

Especially especially in my 26th.

Katy Montgomery 18:01

On a Friday night.

Justin Joseph 18:05

Yeah, well, you know, the other thing is I know a lot of people who are doing the the um ketamine therapy, like right now.

Katy Montgomery 18:10

Oh, you do? The only person I know who did that was um Elon Musk? No, the dude from Friends. I read his uh Matthew Perry, and it didn't turn out well.

Justin Joseph 18:20

That's recreational. There's a ketamine therapy that you can get prescribed.

Katy Montgomery 18:24

Oh yeah.

Justin Joseph 18:24

Doctors I mean it's under doctor supervision, but I know people who are doing that.

Katy Montgomery 18:28

Again, when you use Elon Musk, that's not a good endorsement for me.

Justin Joseph 18:33

All right, when we come back on the other side, we'll wrap up talking about Ibogaine and ayahuasca and whether it's the right or wrong way forward. We'll be right back after this. Thanks for streaming Wrong Way Forward, the weekly reminder that advice is usually free for a reason. We call out bad advice wherever it hides, boardrooms, break rooms, and even book clubs.

Katy Montgomery 18:52

Enjoying this dumpster fire, like, subscribe, and check back every Thursday for new episodes. Want us to roast your favorite piece of nonsense? Email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. Be sure to include your contact info. We're not psychic, just judgmental. And now back to wrong way forward.

Speaker 2 19:11

Roasting the worst advice ever. Welcome back to the Katy and Justin.

Katy Montgomery 19:14

And we're back. And I think we've come to the conclusion that um these kind of mind-altering, hallucinic, kind of long, you know, long trip kind of drugs are the wrong way forward for Justin. Could potentially be the right way forward for me. But, you know, this leads me to kind of, you know, again, we love to talk about kind of celebrity bad behavior. And I have a very, very soft spot, Justin, for Britney. I always chose Yeah, I always chose Britney over Christina. Um, you know, Britney was just such a part of our culture. I mean, like, you know, we danced to it at your law school graduation, you know, we played it in college. I, you know, I don't know. It was just, she was from Mississippi, you know, like she tried. Um, and so, you know, has recently, I think, um, has pled to maybe a DUI and has gone to rehab based on kind of um some urging of her two sons. I think they did an intervention. And so I think that's really the right way forward for Britney. I don't think Britney should be under a conservative conservatorship. I don't think I think Britney should be able to make adult decisions, but you know, Britney has experienced quite a bit of trauma. So what I'm wondering is is what would an eye book get. Well, I mean, I think, you know, she was with Justin Timberlake and he cheated on her, she aborted a baby. I mean, I listened, I also listened to her um biography. Um, I think her father was pretty much a piece of shit. You know, she has been under this conservatorship. Um, you know, she's had some unhealthy marriages. Um, she was worked to the bone. I mean, like, you know, lots of people were on her um were on her paycheck and she was supporting them. She didn't get to take a lot of breaks. So, you know, Ibogay might be good for her just to kind of move through this trauma and get on the other side of it.

Justin Joseph 21:10

I feel like she has some mental health issues that probably are not going to be addressed by rehab.

Katy Montgomery 21:14

I mean, I think that's probably accurate.

Justin Joseph 21:16

Yeah.

Katy Montgomery 21:16

But are are you still pro-Brittney?

Justin Joseph 21:18

Uh, you know, I no, I'm not. I wouldn't say that. Uh, like I said, I think she's got had some a leg up much more than a lot of people. And there was a day when Brittany was normal, and so I don't know what happened, but something's off with her. And uh, you know, this latest, just talking about celebrity bad behavior. You've got her, Tiger Woods, um Justin Timmer like these people that are can afford to be driven around and they're out there doing God knows what behind the wheel. And so I think that, you know, it's it's and talk about entitlement. That's what it is to me. It's just crazy. And so, no, I'm not a fan of hers anymore. I mean, I think she does some really crazy stuff. You know, I also think she's been a terrible mother to those kids.

Katy Montgomery 21:54

Yeah. I mean, she's you know, and and I don't know if that's a hundred percent of her own doing. I also just Wish somebody would like get her a cute outfit and like get her, you know, maybe do a keratin treatment on her hair. She just she just looks so haggard and like maybe, you know, usually if you you know you dress for success, like if you look good, you feel good. I'm wondering if that might also help.

Justin Joseph 22:20

I I totally agree. I'm tired of seeing the weird dances as well.

Katy Montgomery 22:26

I could I could turn around in a circle like that.

unknown 22:28

That's not bad for us.

Justin Joseph 22:29

We want to know what you think. Text us at 720251 4450. Let us know would you do Ibogain or I Hawaiiaska, whatever it's called. Have you done and let us know your experience? Text us as again at 7202514450. Or, of course, you can always email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com. As we talked about, we'll get one of these experts on in the next couple of um episodes to talk to us about what the experience is like, how it works, et cetera. We'll do that down the road. But that's this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward. Remember, the only thing worse than taking bad advice is giving it.

Katy Montgomery 23:07

If you've liked what you've heard, like, subscribe, or follow us wherever you stream podcasts. And if you've got a topic or need some advice, we'll probably regret giving, email us at wrongwayforwardpodcast at gmail.com.

Justin Joseph 23:21

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Wrong Way Forward.