SPEAKER_01

If you haven't heard of Ocean PDF, they're a company that started in 2018 that has ebooks. They have frequently faced legal drama.

SPEAKER_04

I think the one thing that baffled me truly throughout this whole conversation and like the threads that I was seeing is that how many people actually publicly was like, oh my gosh, I use Ocean of PDF. Like I'm pirating books. I do see both sides. We're gonna shut this down. We're gonna shut this side down. We're gonna make sure pirating isn't even an option.

SPEAKER_00

Once Book Talk puts their mind to something, the comments are gonna be lit up.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome back to Plot Twist Please, where we sit, flip, and spill the tea on books and booze.

SPEAKER_01

I'm Susanna, I'm Cass, and I'm Beth. And today we're gonna be diving into one of the ongoing conversations that's in the book community. And that's been brought back into the spotlight because of Ocean PDF.

SPEAKER_03

Ooh. So we're gonna be diving into that today. That's not an ooh, that's a ooh. Very omnis. That was very monotone.

SPEAKER_00

It should be more.

unknown

Ooh.

SPEAKER_05

Ooh, brother.

SPEAKER_00

Brother Ooh! Brother Ooh!

SPEAKER_05

What's that?

SPEAKER_00

Today's drink of the episode is Malibu Pina Colada.

SPEAKER_04

If you like pina coladas, in fact, then before we board this sinking ship, um, what is everyone reading?

SPEAKER_01

I'm doing binding 13. Boo. So just plain boo. I'm really liking it so far. Do you think I'll like it? I do actually think you like it so far.

SPEAKER_04

I'm just I guess I'm more picky than you guys in some aspects.

SPEAKER_01

But I said so you are. One thing I've noticed is that there's a lot of swearing. Yeah. Which I was like, I could see that being a big turnoff for you. Like a lot.

SPEAKER_04

The biggest turnoff for me, I think, was the genitals. The the the aching groin was a big one, quite literally. And then the other thing was like the flip-flopping of perspectives and how it just basically reiterates everything that just happened in the previous chapter. And I'm like, this is a super long book. If it's gonna do this for the entirety of it, I don't know if I can read it. Did you finish it? I went back to it and finished it. Oh, you did.

SPEAKER_01

And so apparently keeping 13 is a longer book, but moves faster. So there's like from what I was kind of seeing in like the reviews and people talking about it, is like some people loved binding 13, liked keeping 13, and some people were the opposite. They liked binding 13, and but then they loved keeping 13. Right.

SPEAKER_04

So I want to go into keeping 13 for the answers that I thought I was gonna get in binding 13 that I did not after torturing myself for the entirety of that book. Um, so maybe one day when I'm like feeling a little bit brave, I'll venture back into that.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of I also saw a lot of like controversy about the ending. A lot of people found that they the they didn't enjoy the book until like over 60 percent.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I don't mind the aching groin. Is it excessive? Yes, I don't think it is, right? But I think it's just like it's he's like a star athlete. He's the star athlete. He's kept this groin injury like and surgery a secret. He can't get hard and it hurts to get hard, and he gets hard a lot. Well, he can get hard. It just it hurts. It hurts more, I think actually, from the ball aspect. So fair.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, what are you reading? I'm reading Forget Me Not by Stacey Willingham. Yeah, it is it's slow to start. Once you get into like the 30, yeah, 40%, then it starts picking up.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm at 50% and I'm like, what is happening? I know. I like soared right through until the end after I got that like to that point. Yeah, what are you reading? I'm reading You Deserve to Know by Egggy Plume Thompson, and it's basically like three best friends who live in the same cul-de-sac. The suburb. The suburbs are moms and they all have secrets. And I'm really excited to see what they are. I want to read that.

SPEAKER_00

There's a sh movie? Show.

SPEAKER_01

There's a show coming out about it.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna say, I thought there was a show. Yeah. By the time this comes out, we will be starting our, well, in a few days after this comes out, we will be starting our book club of the month pick for August, which is Daybreak by Autumn Woods, which is the second book in the is it Saro Song University? Yeah. First book is Nightshade. So if you want to join us on that journey, maybe go back, read Nightshade quickly, and then hop back into the book club and join us for daybreak. Very excited about this one. Beth gets to oh no, no, wrong book. Wrong book. I was thinking Beth gets to talk about Logan again, but that's a different series. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't Logan in this one?

SPEAKER_04

No, Logan's in the second book of Spellcaster. Which we didn't read. Which is Nightwalker or something. Nightwitch. Nightwitch.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that is true.

SPEAKER_00

Those two. They always blend together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. They do. Let's get into it. Take it away, Beth. Yeah. Hi ladies. Absolutely love your podcast and all the controversial topics that you cover. This topic has been extremely hot in the past month where I'm seeing the book community fight it out on both threads and TikTok, and that's the shutting down of Ocean PDF that contains thousands of popular and indie published books for free. The community seems to be split. Many are praising the shutdown, especially authors, as it is technically piracy. The other half are extremely angry and even served a fundraiser to bring the site back up. As for some, this is the only way they have access to literature. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Hot take XOXO cats. So this one's for you, cats. Thank you so much. If you haven't heard of Ocean PDF, they're a company that started in 2018 that has like uh PDF files and ePubs for ebooks. They have frequently faced backlash and legal drama from publishers. But recently on social media, everyone has lost their minds, you know, on both sides of the war when Ocean PDF was shut down. I want to talk a little bit about what you guys have seen on the I've seen so much stuff.

SPEAKER_04

I've seen that like Threads was overtaken by mostly like from my perspective, people supporting Ocean of PDF, like the website, wanting it back up, being like, you know, this is the only way I have access to literature. And then people in the comments coming to like author's defense and even authors themselves saying, like, this is stealing, my book has been downloaded like so and so many times. I'm losing thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, even like there was one author who was saying that I forget what the number was, but they they could see how many times their book had been downloaded.

SPEAKER_03

One was like 20,000. Oh, dang.

SPEAKER_01

And they're like, this is like six thousand dollars, which they're like, that's like a few months worth of my mortgage. Right. Yeah. And as an author, yeah. And another author came in was like that six thousand dollars for me is life-changing. Yes. So like six thousand dollars for someone else is like child's play. It's all circumstance.

SPEAKER_04

I think the one thing that baffled me truly throughout this whole conversation and like the threads that I was seeing is that how many people actually publicly was like, Oh my gosh, I use Oshna PDF. Like, I'm hurting books. Yeah, here you go.

SPEAKER_01

Public knowledge now. Well, and I think like so many people came in being like, it's shut down. Like they're like some people are losing their mind. Yeah, they were panicking about it, but then it just sparked like a whole different side. Like, and for me, my social media was split. I would say in yeah, yeah, mine too.

SPEAKER_04

I do see both sides. I think that's what we're gonna talk about in today's video is just like the arguments from each side because I do think there is a little bit of nuance in this. Like I can see where some people are coming from, obviously, can see where authors are coming from in this. Obviously, we want authors to get paid for their work as well. We can definitely see why some people would be desperate enough to like pirate books. I mean, but back in the day. Remember LimeWire guys? Yeah, back in the day. We are gonna discuss that as well.

SPEAKER_01

Or we're gonna talk about I'll hold on to my thoughts. Yeah, perfect. From your guys' point of view, why do people pirate books?

SPEAKER_04

First of all, if you go back to our Kindle video, you'll see why. Because the prices are in insane for one.

SPEAKER_01

They are, they're gonna be. And there was some controversy in our comments when it came to Kindle pricing and ebook pricing. Yes. Saying that there are other avenues.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. There was a comment. Um, I'll just say it. There was a comment was like, girls, have you heard of a library? Well, yeah, we have. The issue is is not everyone has access to a library. If you live in a rural community, like not everyone has a library. And like even Libby, like Libby is not like for us in Canada, we can't access Libby through our actual Kindles. I think you can read it on the app on your phone.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, for I'm not reading it.

SPEAKER_00

But not everyone has access to a library. So I feel like that is also something that needs to be said because it's easy for people that have constant access to a library to be like, oh, go to a library.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we've had it in our book club. People talking about how they're so long in line for a book through their library or a book through Libby or whatever avenue that they use, or they can't get a hold of it for whatever reason. And then so if you're you only have four weeks to read a book and you're 150th in line for that book.

SPEAKER_02

You ain't getting it for a few years. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's hard for you to be active in a book club if you're having to constantly wait for the books that that book club is doing. And do you want to be behind on social because like most book clubs will do like they'll do older ones too, but most book clubs will do new releases, new releases, yeah or newer books. Yeah, yeah. So there's also that side of it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And then like the accessibility aspect as well, like the library. But I'm just even talking about like financially, some people just don't make enough money in order to justify spending 20 bucks on a book, a digital book, at that. And then some people just say, Well, then you can't read.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm like, Well, that's unfair as well. Like, I don't I think everyone should have access to literature. And I know so many libraries that have been shut down.

SPEAKER_00

That's so sad. So and here's the other piece that people have brought in is thrifting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So if you don't have access to a library and you don't want to pay the insane prices through your Kindle if you're an e-reader gal or girl or guy, then it's like, well, then just go to a thrift store. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I've done that. That's great.

SPEAKER_04

So but they also don't have they have Nora Roberts that tells you enough. I got the I got the vineyard from there.

SPEAKER_01

Some of them are mine. May or may not be mine. Some of them I've bought from there.

SPEAKER_00

But again, we it brings it back to if you're in a like not saying everyone's in a book a book club, but if you are and they're reading more up-to-date books, you're not gonna find them at a thrift store.

SPEAKER_01

Thrift stores are not cheap. At least most of the ones around here aren't. Some of them can be, but I mean, we've got Mission Thrift, we've got Valley Village, Salvation Army, um, Salvation Army. Salvation Army is not bad. Mission Thrift is so so. Valley Village, some of their books they still charge $10 for. Like it's not, and if it's a hot and or newer book, they charge more money for it. Right. Now on the plus side, a lot of times, like they'll have coupons that go out. Uh Valley Village does a buy four books, get the fifth book free, but still, yeah, then you're fine, then you're buying like four books at $10 a piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I will say, like, I have gone to Valley Village and like gone to their book section, and either the books are not in great condition or they're just books that I'm simply not interested in reading. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They're there for a reason. Actually, so um Burlington used to have this amazing bookstore. It was a like mainly thrifted. They did some new like a used bookstore. It was a used bookstore. I was gonna bring that up next, actually. But they had a system, so you could buy a book and you could actually exchange it for a new book. Uh that's a good you could bring in books and they would it was almost like consignment type of thing. So they would give you so much and you could put that towards buying more books.

SPEAKER_00

If I was rich, it's gone, it's really closed now, but I know if I was rich or if we were rich, that'd be something we could do. That's a really cool concept.

SPEAKER_01

There's there's actually a lot of books that I was looking for, or like in a couple of my Nora collections, I'd have like a outlier where one of them, the covers didn't match the rest. Oh no, yeah, and I got the the ones I was looking for for from there. But yeah, it's like the funny because like the guy who ran it was like, oh, like, do you like are you part of this? And I was like, I won't be returning these, these are for my collection.

SPEAKER_00

These are these are mine, yeah. You know what Kindle and Kobo, like the two major e-readers, needs to figure out that probably could help with the piracy issue. What? Lend to a friend. So someone buys a book, okay. Kindle and Kobo, if you're hearing this, I want royalties. But no, but some people have talked about that as a form of piracy as well. How though? Because okay, so lend, but I'm saying if you lend to a friend, the friend pays uh you know, like two to five dollars, like a premium to share, okay. Right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That I feel like that would be a good idea. Personally, I think if you can share a book physically, you should be able to at least one time share a book digitally. Yeah. If I'm paying $20 something dollars for a book, I should be able to give it to my mom after.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Or if you're like a KU subscriber, yeah. You could do like the the so you get once a month, you get like Audible does credits. Once a month you get a credit and you can lend to a friend. Who doesn't have KU or so smart? It's already a paid PDF copy, but it's just being lent to someone. And then there's a time limit on how long they have to read it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. I don't think lending to a friend is piracy. I don't know. No, that's happened forever.

SPEAKER_00

It does it forever. You can do it with an actual book. So what's to say it's different with a file? Yeah. We don't actually own the file anyway.

SPEAKER_01

The why there's such a large scale of people like talking about this uh from both sides is morality, the morality of it, right? Like there, there's so many reasons for and and against.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Especially to like if you know someone who's been struggling and this is something that they they've been able to use. And like we've talked about this before about reading being a form of therapy. And if you have to then worry about the cost of that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. But then some people are also like in terms of that, like they'll say, Oh, well, read fan fiction, go to WAPAD. Like you can, there's other ways that you can read without stealing from authors. Obviously, pirating is wrong. We all know that. Yeah, there's a reason why there's disclaimers in books, like you can't pirate this book. Doesn't mean people aren't gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So speaking of the other side, one of the things that people have been really talking about and authors have been really talking about is how this is affecting indie authors, especially. We're not talking about like the large publishers, the large names, we're talking about the struggling artists, the indie artists, the nathans of the world who are just starting to break into it how this is affecting them. And people like who I'd mentioned before, where a little bit of money for one person is a large bit of money for them. Yes. And so I think that's where a lot of authors are getting upset. Um, and especially like in the indie author community. I mean, valid. Valid. Valid. I'd be upset too. Very valid. Well, like imagine like Nathan coming home and being like, I'd be pissed on his book. I made I made a thousand dollars this month on book sales, but I could have made like a good 10 grand. Yeah, I'd be like, dang. And it's it's not just Ocean PDF either. No, there's tons of many. I was gonna list some of them and I was like, I'm not gonna put I'm not gonna put that out there. No, because you know what?

SPEAKER_00

It's also Ocean PDF, I think is one of the biggest ones, it's the most well-known one, and that's why it's getting such controversy around it because when it got shut down, it opened up a whole can of worms.

SPEAKER_04

But like, I didn't even know this was a thing until recently as well. Yeah. Like I didn't even know you could pirate books.

SPEAKER_01

No, but like I don't know why. It wasn't even a thing in my brain. Like I was like on like bookoutlet.ca, I'm looking for the sales, I'm at friggin' winners. Yeah. Like, what do you guys got for me today?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like the thought never even came across my mind to even Google that, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Like, I couldn't believe there was actually a site that did it. Yeah. Part of the other side is some of the people that you might not think about who are being affected by this. So your small publishing houses, your narrators for audiobooks, your translators, and we've even we've had that discussion in our book club recently of books having to be translated in so many languages. Yeah. Editors, cover artists, formatters for like books like there's a ripple effect that comes from it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's not just your authors, not just your indie authors, and I think the people you automatically think about who are being affected by this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

To all these other people who took time and effort to like make the book come to behind the scenes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Would you say that this is something that could affect the future of books? For sure.

SPEAKER_04

I think so. I think that now it's like the pirating is all out in the open. I think people are going to like, I don't know, after all the hate that people who did pirate like got, I think they might just not do it anymore. And but you said, like how Ocean and PDF has faced legal action in the past, I could see that happening again. Like I can see it, people getting more like, we're gonna shut this down, we're gonna shut this side down, we're not gonna make like we're gonna make sure pirating isn't even an option.

SPEAKER_00

Once Book Talk puts their mind to something, they but they're just they're so divided though. They're very divided over this topic for sure.

SPEAKER_01

So when you go onto Ocean of PDF's website, what do we believe and why should you support us? We believe that knowledge and information should be free and accessible to everyone around the globe. There are many developing countries where you cannot easily buy your favorite books. They are literally out of reach of many people. Secondly, Amazon doesn't deliver to many countries, and not everyone has the financial means to buy stuff from the internet. We also believe it should be really simple and easy to download your desired PDF or EPUB ebook. There should be no sign-up required, no membership registration needed, and no annoying ads or pop-ups. You should get what you want, nice and easy. That's why we built this site. If you believe what we believe, then please support us on the below link. Then they have like the buy me a coffee link. Libraries are out of reach in remote developing countries. There are few good bookstores and large cities only. Libraries are hundreds of kilometers away, so we believe everyone deserves to get easy access to knowledge.

SPEAKER_00

What does the donations from buy me a coffee go to?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's what I would like to know. Does it go back into authors?

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah. No, from what I saw, like some of it was going back towards like legal fees to pretty much keep the site running. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_02

If it went back into authors, I think that would be more justifiable. That would be if there's a kickback of some sort.

SPEAKER_04

Like if authors were being. I'm assuming it doesn't. No. Well, no.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's covering their butts.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But I do think some authors maybe wouldn't like the amount that they would get.

SPEAKER_00

Probably not. Probably not, no. I mean, ideally, you want someone to pay full price for your work.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I do think their reasoning or maybe their intents behind doing this are good. But at the end of the day, pirating is still pirating. Yeah. It doesn't matter how you justify it.

SPEAKER_01

Now, if you were to look at a large author and or big publishing house versus an indie author and a small publishing house, would that change how you'd feel? Like, say Ocean of PDF only did the big names, the big publishing houses.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_04

I'm still stealing a stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's still someone's work that you're taking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And a lot of these authors worked really hard to get where they are. Get into like one of the big five publishing houses. Yeah. So either way, like you're still taking away from their income at some point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So some of the arguments that are going around piracy is like we've said, like the creator's loss of income. Are you okay over there?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just spit out a chunk of ice onto my leg. I literally like fell down my lip and onto my leg.

SPEAKER_01

I'm good. Are you sure? Yeah, we're good. Genie moment. Uh copyrights existing for a reason. Yep. Choosing not to pay still deprives creators of compensation. I think that sums it up all there. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And it's like you go into work for free. Others argue that copying isn't taking away a physical item and large corporations already make enough money.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, copying kind of is because like the people who would have bought that book are getting it for free.

SPEAKER_00

And there's multiple people. Well, that could be income.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. Like 20,000 copies when we download it. I don't know which book it was, but it was on threads. Yeah. I know. I did not expect that much.

SPEAKER_01

Was it like a big author? No. No. There's the ones that I saw were like smaller authors. Smaller ones. Yeah. So let's talk about the internet's double standards.

SPEAKER_03

A little spicy section.

SPEAKER_01

So people who pirate books. Your comments are gonna be lit up. Let's do that. Yeah, this is kind of a hot take. This is like devil's advocate.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Okay. So devil's advocate, even though we made our stance pretty clear.

SPEAKER_01

People who pirate books but criticize AI. Oh. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_00

That's just hot kemal black.

SPEAKER_01

Sharing PDFs versus lending a physical book.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's like what's the difference?

SPEAKER_00

The book has already been purchased. Yes. Already.

SPEAKER_01

So the and I think that's that kind of ties into what you were saying before about how if you've paid for a book, there should be some kind of lending option. Yeah. Do it be kind of cool if there's like say that that exists where you have all these lending credits of certain like for certain books, and say I read a book, I know you guys are gonna like it. My mom's not gonna like it. If you could like there's like a site that you could give that lending credit to. That someone that could go in who wanted to read that book could like use that credit for that book.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I'm saying. Like, so you could do one free credit a month. Yeah. And then you could lend to a friend, other friends.

SPEAKER_01

I think it should be one free credit per book that you've paid for.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I'm saying. One free credit, that's what I was meaning. Yeah. Per book. And then if you wanted to lend outside of that free credit, like KU could be once a month. Right. If you paid $20 something dollars for the book. Right. And then if you wanted to lend to more people, it was like a small fee.

SPEAKER_04

That is something I will say. Like, I don't know the difference. Like, obviously, downloading from Ocean PDF wrong because you don't have access to that book anyway, like from a friend. Yep. But like if Nate wants to read a book that I paid for on my Kindle instead of him paying for another 20 bucks, we're in the same house, like just use my Kindle. Yeah. Not that I would actually do that. Like my Kindle's my baby. I take it everywhere. Yeah. But like let's just say that happened. That would be something I would suggest.

SPEAKER_00

Because like, but chances are you don't live with the person that you're gonna lend the book to. Yeah. No, chances are no. So what is the difference of me buying a physical copy and being able to lend it to whoever? Yeah. And the author's not getting paid for those other people reading them.

SPEAKER_04

Someone someone come in and tell us the difference.

SPEAKER_01

Um like I'd read The King of Flesh and Bones. Yeah. Did not recommend. Do not recommend, sorry. I love her other books. Yeah. I I could take that gram because if someone else wants, or even if you guys wanted to you like someone else who didn't have K you wanted to see what the fuss is all about, here you go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like I just feel like it should be an option.

SPEAKER_04

Or like even like uh books you DNF and you don't finish, you could like return and then like someone else can like take it over.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like when you take over a lease, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so many good ideas.

SPEAKER_04

I know, right?

SPEAKER_00

Amazon's too greedy to do that though.

SPEAKER_01

People who are against piracy but watch movies illegally.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, all you guys with your little sticks. Sticks? Yeah, what are they called? Like a fire stick?

SPEAKER_04

A Firefox or something? No, that's a internet browser. I know, but I'm a Trump, I pay for all my subscriptions.

SPEAKER_01

There's like so many hands. There's so many different like little sticks that you can stick into your TV that's you. Like everything is included. Some of them have like a little thing. Piracy, my friends. One of the things I saw a lot of people throwing around was some of the people who were so against LimeWire. Yeah. So against the uh piracy of books were the ones who were burning their own CDs on lime wire or using Napster back in the day. That was do we admit that?

SPEAKER_04

Are cops gonna come over?

SPEAKER_01

I don't care.

SPEAKER_04

I care. I don't want to spend life in jail.

SPEAKER_01

I actually was not big on that. My dad wasn't limeware isn't a thing anymore, is it? I don't know. I don't think so. But I think though, I think limeware, Napster, and all that became such a huge thing for a while. But I think that's how like when programs like Spotify, YouTube Music, like all that started coming in, and you had these subscriptions, yeah, and then all of a sudden you could get like oh I wish I knew it was called. It was before I went to Spotify. There's a company that I was using, and actually Cheryl's husband, Evan, used it. Both of us loved it. That was a music streaming service. But I remember just being like, this is amazing. Oh, I wonder what it is. She'd have to go onto iTunes. Can you let us like buy an album or download this? What I liked about this one was that I can make my own playlist, and Spotify didn't have that at the time. Now you have to like pay for it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I things have changed. I remember the Limewire days, like when I had my iPod nano. Yeah. And I was just like finding a bunch of new music on my dial up internet.

SPEAKER_01

Especially when like the big thing with like your your iPad, like your iPods and your like the little, yeah, the little I still have my nano.

SPEAKER_04

I'm so jealous.

SPEAKER_00

Do you actually? Actually, I think my parents have mine somewhere at the house, the little pink one. Was that the nano? Mine's blue.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Mine was like a little bit. And then there was the shuffle. Yeah. I hate the shuffle. But mine was like the longer one that's really thin, hot pink, and had a bigger screen. And I was like, mine is literally like this big.

SPEAKER_00

I would actually love if Apple brought back the iPod.

SPEAKER_01

But if you could hook it up to like your Spotify, like an updated version of it away from your phone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that'd be fun. Because sometimes I'm sick of my phone. That's just your podcasts or your pod. It's limited. You can't, yeah, you're not having someone texting you in the middle of your podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Well, unless like if you yeah, if you plug in through Bluetooth for a speaker and someone texts you and it's like such a vibe killer.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Seriously. One of the arguments that I saw music stops when someone calls. So annoying. I can't talk right now. I'm listening to I'm vibing. Yeah. Have people over. One of the arguments I saw about the lime, like regarding the Limewire comments is, you know, when we were that like younger, we didn't really think about the repercussions of what we were doing. We were like, oh, we know it's illegal, but like meh, I'm a child.

SPEAKER_01

Do you remember the like you'd always see them at like the like different markets and stuff? The people would have like the slim DVDs and this they were definitely like on like pirating the other thing. Or you'd get the ones where they filmed it, and then people would be walking in front of the screen while you should watch the movie.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then what?

SPEAKER_01

What is happening?

SPEAKER_04

I'm talking. She's busy talking. What your whistle. I just did. It's not enough. Um, but basically, people were saying, like, the people who did that in the past and are against Ocean of PDF. You guys are impossible to talk to right now. Sorry. I have a point I'm trying to make. Sorry, Mom. I'll talk to you guys. So, one of the comments that people were saying were people who like used to use lime wire in the past. I'm not even looking at YouTube right now.

unknown

Hello!

SPEAKER_04

They see me? Yes, unfortunately. They are against the pirating of books and ocean of PDF, and people were like throw that in their face, like, guarantee you did lime wire back in the day. But like we were millennial, well, children, basically. Elder millennials. And now we've matured and we know the consequences of our actions. So, like, uh yeah, well, we're supposed to at 30 years old, allegedly. Allegedly.

SPEAKER_01

But that was, yeah, that was an argument I saw. Yeah. And then other discussion was piracy versus fan fiction. You're take essentially taking someone else's idea and their characters, and you've made your own story and then are selling it.

SPEAKER_04

Do they sell it though, or is it just on do? Well, you have to think Twilight. Yeah, but she uh yeah. I mean, she wrote Manicold first, yeah, but and then rewrote it.

SPEAKER_00

Literally the same thing.

SPEAKER_04

It's the exact Nate was reading Alchemy as I was reading Manicold, and it was the exact same book, just different like names. Like Fifty Shades, Twilight was from Twilight. I don't see that correlation at all. I would just say that.

SPEAKER_03

You kind of can. I can't. It's just a bit, not at all.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think it's just to the extreme spiciness. Yeah, but then who knows what the like the first draft was like. Yeah, he could have been a Twilight, or he could have been a Twilight, he could have been a vampire in the original draft of it, and it was like, okay, well, we need to make this more different from Twilight.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If we're gonna sell it, right?

SPEAKER_04

It's definitely different, considering Edward waited till marriage to have sex, and Christian Gray was just like, get in the room.

SPEAKER_01

Christian Gray was taken advantage of by his mom's friend. Gross. Mrs. Robinson. Yeah. But then he did the same to Anna. So this one I think is a little bit more far-fetched, but the other argument that people had was piracy versus borrowing a book from the library.

SPEAKER_04

Well, the library has a specific license to be able to have that book and like distribute it to other people. So they have the, I think they have to pay for it.

SPEAKER_01

I think you would almost have to know how, because like for me, I can understand why some people would have that argument because it's like, well, the library gets one book. So dumb. Please get more. And then some of them do. Like some of them might have like a few copies of two. Yeah. Maybe three. If you're in a book, maybe if it's a library. If you're in a big city. Yeah. But yeah, like, so I guess like on the flip side, is like what what's the kickback that authors get for their books being in the library, or there is none? Is it kind of a donation that's made by their publisher?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like how does that work? Because you're right. The author's not going to be making money off of people that get their books from the library, really.

SPEAKER_01

They only made the money off of the original of KU, like that we've talked about this as well, is that authors are paid very tiny sums of money per page read. Right. Can you hold this for a second? 002 cents. Yes, your highness. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04

Just looking up like the library licenses and stuff, they say libraries do not need licenses to share physical books as this is protected by the first sale doctrine. However, for digital books, ebooks, libraries must purchase restrictive licenses from publishers to lend them, which often dictate limits on lending time, simultaneous users, and overall expiration dates. For physical books, copyright laws grant creators the exclusive right to distribute their work. However, the first sale doctrine allows anyone who legally owns a physical item, like a library or an individual, to sell, give away, or lend that specific copy without needing permission or paying additional fees to the copyright holder. This is how libraries are legally able to lend physical books to multiple people without paying ongoing royalties.

SPEAKER_00

I want that for my Kindle books so I can lend it to my friends.

SPEAKER_04

It's just weird that there's different rules for physical books compared to digital. I know. So weird. I wonder why that is.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, libraries have been around for a millennia. Eons. Yeah. Yeah. My gasted husband flabbered. I didn't know that. So that's really interesting. That is. Any other librarians or friends of librarians want to share some more insights? Not you, scones. We know you're a liar. We know you're lying. So why do some forms of piracy feel more acceptable than others? Just more normalized. They shouldn't be. Like, I think, like, for me, I would say like limeware and napster, all that was kind of back in the day. But these days, I think it's TV movie piracy versus book piracy that you know me, like kind of correlates more. That is my hot take. Don't come for me.

SPEAKER_04

They're coming for you.

SPEAKER_00

For sure they are. You'll come back. Is this a big deal because reading books has become so explosive in the last few years?

SPEAKER_04

Could be. I I also my also hot take as well is that like the book space has become such a in certain places of the book space, I'll say such a toxic place where people will argue about anything. Yes. I will say like this is a big deal, especially looking at it from the author side of things, like they're losing income, right? Yeah. But I do think it's exploded so much. Some people are performative, outraging. Other people are genuinely angry. Authors are trying to defend their work and their stance on it. You're right. Like, because of how explosive reading has become and how it's become such a huge community, especially online. Huge community.

SPEAKER_00

It gained more traction because there's a lot more people that are connected through the internet. Yeah. And like there's not a community of people that re watch movies.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, like some Reddit threads and whatnot, but it's not as like it's not like this. It's not the same.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So, right? Like you don't have a movie club.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you might. There's some movie podcasts. Yeah. The book community specifically within the last few years has exploded. Which is great. Which is awesome, but y'all be toxic sometimes. So let's not be like that.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, we're kind of toxic too sometimes. Yeah, we are so opinionated.

SPEAKER_01

Have our views changed because digital media is so easy to copy.

SPEAKER_04

You can copy it on such a like a larger scale.

SPEAKER_01

20,000 men in trench coats sitting in a movie theater anymore with their gorder.

SPEAKER_04

I'd used to watch those things. I'd like to search movies that were still in theaters that I like watch.

SPEAKER_00

You could just hear the person next to them their popcorn and the one behind you. I got so mad.

SPEAKER_01

Some of them would be such heavy breathers.

SPEAKER_04

Or there are like cameras that are angled downwards and like the whole thing's distorted. I'm like, I just want to watch this movie.

SPEAKER_00

I'm obsessed with. I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_01

All right, let's dive in a little bit into the alternatives. So some of them we've talked about public libraries, uh library apps, Libby, Hoopla, used bookstores. Now book swaps. Okay. I'd be interested in a book swap.

SPEAKER_02

That'd be fun.

SPEAKER_00

I I can't do that for Kindle readers. That's true.

SPEAKER_04

Here's the thing. Well, physical books. She didn't give us the Nora ones. Yeah. Like that's kind of like a book swap. And you've taken my Crescent City one.

SPEAKER_00

No, but I'm just I mean, like you're limited unless you read physical books. So people that are Kindle only readers like me can't do that. Don't have this.

SPEAKER_01

There is Kindle unlimited. There are subscription services that you can you can use. Waiting for sales, which is my big one. Going to Home Sense or somewhere like that. Home Goods, HomeSense, Winners, nice special edition books for way less. Um Walmart and Target both have, I think Target's 20%. Walmart is 25%. Now it's 25% in Canada. I don't know what it is in the study. Probably similar. Probably.

SPEAKER_04

Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They probably just make one sticker that goes for everyone. But one of the things that people have been talking about is supporting your small publishers. Indie bookstores, small publishings, smaller bookstores, one of a kind, all that. Yeah, fair. Let's do an actual hot takes round. Ooh, I'm excited. All right. Publishers are pricing readers out. Yes. On e-readers especially.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. Books I can justify because I have a physical copy.

SPEAKER_01

But we've even like we've talked talked about this on our again. If you go to our uh Kindle e-reader pricing episode, we talked about this a little bit. Of there's been books that they've been released and they want $55 for them. Why isn't it? And then like the softcover is like $35. Too much. Yeah. And I'm just like softcover. Paperback. Paperback. I was like, I guess I'm just never going to read this book.

SPEAKER_00

Like, that's crazy. So if you look at it that way, then the Kindle is cheaper. Yeah. Ish.

SPEAKER_01

But still, and then you go on to Kindle. But that's the thing. So like hardcover 55, paperback, paperback 35, softback, and then your ebook 25. It'll be like $24.99, $21.99. Like, it's this to me, that's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04

Another thing, too, is that your Kindle only has so much storage space. So at some point, you're gonna have to like delete books that you've bought. Sure. Unless you just throw $200.

SPEAKER_00

There's people that have multiple Kindles so that they can keep books on there.

SPEAKER_01

Huh. I don't think I can do that. So you you fill it, you read all those books, you put it, you buy a new one. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And like Kindles don't get a lot of space. And like these kind of PDF documents don't take up a lot of space. Yeah. Like I was checking my storage, I still have nine gigabytes out of my ten.

SPEAKER_00

That's why I kind of like Kindle Unlimited because it doesn't actually take up a lot of space on your Kindle. I was just once you're done, you return it, right? So it's like, yeah. And you're only paying your monthly subscription, you're not paying like $25. Cheers. You're not paying $25 to get a possible digital copy that may or may not stay on your Kindle for the rest of your life because you don't own the rights to that copy. It's tough in these streets.

SPEAKER_01

It is. If you love a pirated book and buy it later, does that make it okay? No. No.

SPEAKER_00

That just sounds like a justification right there.

SPEAKER_04

There's this guy did read it for free the first time, but then I bowed it. There's this guy on TikTok that Nate and I have been like, it's become one of our things that we say to each other, and he like is trying to teach words and whatnot. Like, if this spelled this and it's said like this, then this must be said like, and then the guy answers it, and then he's like, No, because that's why. And that's it. And that is my answer to that.

SPEAKER_05

Because that's why.

SPEAKER_01

And our last hot take, everyone has pirated something at some time.

SPEAKER_00

Facts true.

SPEAKER_01

I we already added our movies.

SPEAKER_00

I used I used to have when those boxes first came out, what was it called? There was a name for it. Anyways, they were like a little box. Yeah. I had that like years ago. Yeah. I don't have one now. I pay for all my subscriptions. It's just easier. The subscriptions are just easier. It is easier. And it's all seamlessly, and you know the quality you're getting. Yeah. It's a lot of money, but consistency is key to me. Key. Yeah. At our age. Key. Yeah. But I did. I I am guilty of it in the past for sure. I was a minor. I hold no responsibility. I was not. I was in my early 20s when I had that stupid little box.

SPEAKER_01

I'm going to throw in a little, a little topic here. Okay. Netflix. Yeah. So there was the huge controversy when you were no longer longer allowed to share your password. That was stupid. Share within how like share between households. I think we're I think we're pretty pro-sharing here, but with money. Yeah. So like if I'm going to pay for a book or pay for um streamer or whatever, like a service that you should be able to email. Yeah. And like uh my parents have the Disney Plus.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm paying my brother has Disney Plus. He's 16 though, so yeah. He can't really afford it on his own. But interesting.

SPEAKER_02

We'd love to know your guys' thoughts. Oh, I'm sure we'll hear them for sure. Yeah. Let us know.

SPEAKER_01

For our viewers, we have a couple questions. Okay. Okay. Has the cost of books ever tempted you? What's your biggest frustration with the publishing industry? And where do you personally draw the ethical line?

SPEAKER_00

Let us know.

SPEAKER_01

So we really do believe that reading should be accessible, but authors also deserve to be paid for the work they create. The challenge is figuring out how we support both those ideas at the same time. Love to hear where you guys stand, but do not tempt Cass's wrath. Just remember to keep the conversation respectful.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you. You will be regretting your choice if you leave a spicy comment. Because she's the one that answers the comments most of the time. So she's not afraid. What are what is your astrology sign? Scorpio. That tells you enough. Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Petty and grudgy. That's me.

SPEAKER_04

Now it's time for Wines.

SPEAKER_00

Someone commented the other day the return of the lips. I think it was on our newest, our newest episode, and I was like, oh man.

SPEAKER_02

Every episode. I have it saved. Oh okay. Who's going first? I can go first. All right. Take it away, Susie.

SPEAKER_04

Mine is from The Forbidden Alchemy by Stacy McEwen, page 185. Are you planning to carry me up there? I asked. Throw me over your shoulder. His eyes flashed. You say that like it isn't exactly what I'd like to do. I swallowed. It's a lot of stairs, Patrick. You wouldn't manage. Careful. He crouched until his nose was level with mine, his lips a hair's breadth away. That sounded an awful lot like a challenge. That was a good one. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_00

I was also doing that book. So I was also going to Oh no. Were you? I'm gonna change it though. Oh, okay. Yeah. Do you want me to go? Yeah. Okay. Mine is from A Forbidden Alchemy, page 392. She watched him carefully, confusion marring her features. But you asked me to stay, Patrick nodded. I did, and I'm a selfish bastard to do it. Then why? Because you've been stuck in my head for 13 long years, he said. And now that you're here, I can't bring it upon myself to see you leave. He lifted her then clear off the floor, and her screeching laughter tinkled down the tunnel as he pressed his forehead to hers. I'm in love with you, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm gonna do Because I Killed Him, The Nine Gentlemen Book One.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Uh by Edith Birdie. Sounds like this is from page 425. Because it couldn't be anyone else but you. I tried to stay away. I fought it every way I knew how, but I've put my fist through enough walls to know how useless that is. Apart from giving me a view into the next room, Edmund drags a hand across his face, unaware of the blood he smears over his cheek. Protecting you isn't enough anymore. It hasn't been enough since you looked at me like I was a man instead of a blue.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. Yes, that's really nice. Some good con or good uh lines this week, guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Some strong lines, strong, girthy lines. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I really liked the book.

SPEAKER_04

Some said it was boring.

SPEAKER_02

Cheryl. Cheryl.

SPEAKER_04

Cheryl is so mean. Those in our book club know.

SPEAKER_01

I don't understand what she's talking about. There's a lot going on in this plot. Like through the whole, I guess. I guess. But a lot of people really liked it. So I don't know. One of you guys needed to read it. I will get to it and let me know if I'm right or wrong. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00

I want to read it. There's just so much going on. I know. In the summer. We have so many things lined up. I'll get to it, I promise.

SPEAKER_03

One day. One day. One day. Anyways, that's it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Peace.

SPEAKER_00

Peace and love.

SPEAKER_04

You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at Block Twist Please Pod, or also anywhere you can get your podcast. So make sure you're following or subscribed so you never miss an episode. If you love this one, hype us up a little. Leave us a comment, drop a rating or review, and tell us what you would like us to read next.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much for joining us on this episode.

SPEAKER_01

And as always, keep your glass, your bookshelf, and your TBR full.