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Trailblazers in Motion: A Dance of Grit & Growth

• ThinkrBelle & Chess Originals • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Bold change rarely starts with a big budget—it starts with leaders who turn uncertainty into momentum. Orchid Jahanshahi kicks off the FIRST episode of ThinkrTalk with two TRAILBLAZERS from two proudly Canadian companies: Tamara Seales Knights, President of Seaford Pharmaceuticals, and Lisa Heath, Co‑founder and CEO of MediResource Inc. Together, we explore how small, independent teams build trust moats, make faster decisions, and build products that consistently serve patients providers, and payers.

Tamara takes us inside a family-built, vertically integrated pharma company preparing its first innovative prescription launch. She shares the discipline behind their wins: articulate a unique value, target precisely, and keep market feedback flowing. When a line extension stalled after 18 months, the breakthrough came from reframing the problem—less about format, more about strength—a lesson in critical thinking over sunk-cost bias. Lisa unpacks three lines of business that have kept MediResource 30 years-strong: licensed evidence-based consumer health content, high-intent traffic for responsible DTC campaigns, and an insurance benefits navigation platform that connects employees to better health.

We dig into hiring for diversity—people who want breadth, not boxes—why “pivot” can either be empty jargon or a real marker of resilience, and how transparency with partners uncovers hidden risks before they bite. Lisa explains why long-form, pharmacist-led content earns 5.5 million Canadian readers annually, while Tamara lays out a culture-first approach that pairs humility with high energy so teams can move fast without breaking trust. We even connect dance and health outcomes: joy, rhythm, and immediate feedback as design principles for behaviour change in both dance studios and software.

Together, we explored what it really means to lead with grit and grace, to grow in a highly regulated industry that’s constantly evolving. We covered: redefining leadership through trust and courage, the power of collaboration across pharma and tech and how to rise, rebuild and reinvent through change. This wasn’t just a conversation — it felt like a dance among trailblazing women who’ve turned challenges into catalysts for transformation. 

If you’re navigating product launches, reshaping field forces with digital, or simply trying to lead with more clarity and less theater, this conversation offers practical playbooks you can use today. 

This episode of ThinkrTalk is hosted by Orchid and Produced by Chess Originals. 


Here’s to the innovators, doers and dreamers reshaping healthcare — one bold step at a time.

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SPEAKER_02:

Hi, I'm Orchid, and I'm so excited to be here with you for the first episode of ThinkerTalk, the place where pharma, healthcare, tech, and investment collide, because that's where the real breakthroughs happen. Every episode you'll hear from bold trailblazers. They're the pharma leaders, biotech founders, disruptors in digital health, and visionary investors, people who are transforming patient care and reshaping the future of healthcare. We have two guests on the show today, Tamara Seals Knights, president at Seaforth Pharma, one of Canada's only vertically integrated pharma companies, bringing everything from hospital products to behind-the-counter solutions and now preparing for the first innovative prescription launch in the company. Joining Tamara on the show is Lisa Heath, co-founder and CEO of MediResource. Nearly 30 years strong and arguably one of Canada's first digital health pioneers, Lisa's also co-owner of Run DeFlex Hip Hop Dance Studio in Toronto. Both of these women are proof that you can lead with grit and heart. They are lean, not mean, they're culture first, people first, and had the kind of vision that inspires everyone around them. I had the deepest respect for these women, and by the end of this conversation, I know you'll see why. So let's dive in. Tamara and Lisa, every Trailblazer has an origin story. Let's hear yours.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, thanks, Orchid, for that incredible intro. You said some very, very, very uh very kind things. Um, interesting. And I think about that first time when we uh when we met and how far I myself have come as a leader of an organization and wrapping my head around that notion of uh I hate to say it, imposter syndrome. You know, often thinking of myself as one of the smaller players amongst others that would have global companies. But what I also come to understand, and you've been really helpful with me in this, with this perspective, is that many of us as leaders of organizations in this industry are tackling the same challenges. And all of us are strapped in terms of um access to resources, access to talent, and access to knowledge. So in some ways, it's kind of, in some ways, it can be kind of a level playing field. In terms of my origin story, um, we have a family business that was started by my father in 1991. And he had a career in pharma, starting in the Caribbean and then um emigrating here to Canada. My family um were, my dad got transferred, and we spent seven years in Alberta. So that was an interesting experience for a family that was used to the warm sun of the Caribbean, having to get used to the cold sun of Alberta. Um, and then my dad got transferred back to Toronto. And after merger, after merger, after merger, he decided rather than continuing, he would start up his own shop. And um, he had the grit and the bravery, maybe even in some ways the stupidity to go ahead and do so. Um, so he started off the company as a distributor and over time built up a portfolio of uh licensed products, but also developing our own. I've spent pretty much my entire career here, um, September 1st, actually. So next week will be my 25th anniversary at the company. And I've um I've worked in virtually every department here. I've performed almost, almost every function. And so I think it's fair to say that I've grown up here. And I think it's really important when we think about, okay, what do we need to do to keep going? What do we need to do to innovate and to be competitive? Um, one thing that was really important was to ensure that whatever it is that whatever product that we're promoting that we've done our due diligence to ensure that we bring a quality product to market with a truly unique selling proposition, so that we have something that in some way it's unique or that it can stand out. Um, secondly, it's really important to ensure that we target the right audience so that we get traction from the promotional efforts that we make. And then another piece is continuously obtaining feedback from the market to make sure that we get our messaging just right. And so we've done this time and time again with a number of products in a number of therapeutic areas. It's been one of our assets that we can be nimble and that in many ways, we chart our own course. So we're headquartered here in Canada, in Mississauga. Uh, we make the decisions about which products to bring to the market, when to bring them, how to bring them to the market. And so while that does have its inherent challenges, it also has its inherent benefits that I think we've been able to successfully leverage.

SPEAKER_02:

That's beautiful. And you just mentioned something that's very close to my heart. Uh, being Canadian company, of course, uh, Lisa, you're one as well. You started here, you're here. Maybe a little bit of the same question, you know, obviously your origin story, but you guys are almost 30 years old, which is aging us, which I don't like to admit in public. That's remarkable in tech. You know, I keep on I'm in the world of tech right now, obviously, health tech. And, you know, you see people come up with ideas. And I know when you and I were on the train, I don't know, a couple of years ago, I saw your business and I was like, what? You have this many viewers on this website, this many hits? How come we're not doing something with this? And I think it gets to a point where because you've done it for so long, you take some of the amazing things that Medivesource has created perhaps for granted. And I feel like I'm always seeing things that are new in your company. So I'm so impressed with that. Can you just tell us how did you become this long-standing digital health company? And of course you've had a million challenges along the way, but in terms of how do you have your staying power, how do you deliver value to, and I just wanted to point out to the audience, you have pharma customers, but you also have insurance customers, benefits customers as well as employers and so on. So there's a whole other side of your business that's uh outside of pharma.

SPEAKER_01:

Our found a story is that we started actually as a professional services business and and then pivoted to become more of a subscription or SaaS um uh product-based company. And I think um the best way to describe why we've lasted so long uh in this industry is is that we are able to pivot pretty quickly. So we have had a mission, a common mission theme over the years, the decades, to empower patients to better manage their own health and to build trust. Uh, but we've we've changed how we accomplish that mission many times uh in order to survive and thrive at times to uh by just bringing out new products or taking a core product and repackaging it, um, applying some the same thing to a different market, uh, especially in a Canadian landscape with such a small population, you really have to figure out how you can have products that serve multiple industries and multiple markets in order to give you the resilience and the, frankly, the money and revenue to survive. So I would say when you ask the question of, you know, how did how do you how did you manage to keep going for 30 years? It's because we were able to change and pivot fairly quickly, which requires a certain mindset in order to do it, make a change, and also an eye to spot opportunities as they arise. Can I ask you a question, Lisa? Sure. Do you hire for that mindset? What I find is that I'm a little more basic, even. I like to hire people who don't necessarily come from the same industry. I like to hire uh people who are have different strengths than those because you don't have a big business, right? So you can you can actually look for people who have skill sets that are just totally different from the people who are already in the business. So I tend to just do that. I just try to try and uh hire for a variety of skills and experience and capabilities. And that's how I think that's what I think helps create that mindset.

SPEAKER_02:

It's interesting, Tamara, because I know why you're asking that question, because both of you have a unique situation in that you know, you've thrived in this market. The market has changed. We had a pandemic, many things went away, and you're still here, but things are still tough and you're constantly hitting new challenges. I mean, I just remember a couple of weeks ago tomorrow, uh, you were not in a great mood in your office when you got the bill from uh Livingston for, you know, tariffs. Right. Uh, you're dealing with all these dramatic changes that massive companies are struggling with. So there's something there that you do differently that I honestly believe big companies need to learn from. I think I say this to you every single time, saying, you know, if you were sitting in, I don't know, a giant pharma, this would not be easier. It would actually be harder. And I think it's that's something to do with the way you you guys both manage that pivot, Lisa, that you mentioned. Pivot in a small company is easier, of course, but some small companies have a lot of politics and uh you know struggles if they have like a big corporation that they're uh uh let's say um feeding into in the US or they're small in Canada, but you know, they've got global group and so on. You're independent, but also there's a way that you think of these things. I mean, Lisa, you you have three sides of your business, and one of the sides is Health Corridor Network, and that piece of it you've pivoted to, and it goes up against the giants like Google and Facebook. And we've managed to penet penetrate some very large pharma companies with that product in a very simple fashion with no fancy marketing, the same website as many years ago. And I jokingly say, you know what, the website looks old, but that means you can trust it. So it just tells me that people don't necessarily want new, exciting, and new and exciting sometimes comes with risk. And so what you guys have is is it's still exciting, but it's it's this trust level and the ability to turn on a dime. I don't know if you have any examples of that, Tamara. I mean, you've been turning on a dime ever since I've met you. Both of you actually, and you still have time to go to dance and stuff like that. But maybe just talk a little bit about that pivot thing. Very fascinated with that.

SPEAKER_00:

So I actually banned that word from my personal vocabulary after the pandemic because I found that everyone around me, myself included, were using that word ad nauseum. Pivot, pivot, pivot. Um, and I think the reality is, and what I'm gonna say is just so obvious, right? But it's just changes the constant. So developing a skill set that enables one to identify what are the good things in whatever it is that we're doing or that's happening. So keep I identify that and hold on to those things while simultaneously addressing and neutralizing the bad things. Um, and so that's that's kind of been my focus and that's my mindset, which is how can we hold on to the good and learn from and let go of the bad? The bad's always gonna happen, and those are opportunities for us to learn, to grow, to change. Um, but the notion that, okay, things are just going to, you know, stay the same, okay, we've all thrown that away a long time ago. Um, and then we also recognize certain things, like in our industry, regulations are only increasing. It's only getting more complex. So, what do we need to do in that regard? And I think it's, and that's, I mean, when I met you initially, Orchid, that was my way of trying to figure this all out, which is how can we use technology? How can we use AI to try and manage the increasing levels of complexity that we all experience? So I take the notion, you know, of pivot um kind of with a grain of salt. I think it's just survival and how to go beyond that level of survival and thriving by being responsive.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you know what, Tamara? It's so funny. Uh, you and I actually are two peas in a pod, as we both know. Um, but but I actually took a completely different approach to the word pivot. So the word pivot, I didn't really hear it very much. For whatever reason, it was just not a term I heard very much. And when we started, when when the insight came to me to actually start using that word, it was quite freeing because surviving, you know, and and and adapting to change, uh, which was going on and then increased during the pandemic and has increased uh, you know, after the pandemic, it was always a grind, right? It was like, oh, that's the grind dealing with change. But when the word pivot got introduced to my vocabulary, it kind of made it like, look, we've pivoted. Oh, yes. Like it just put it in a positive spin that we're gonna pivot. So it wasn't we're gonna, yeah, it just put a different spin on it, a more positive one. And it's so funny because one of my mentors, I think I was just being down, right? I was like, oh, you know, we had to do this and we have to do this. And and she said, you know, Lise, when you pivot that many times, that's called a business success because you have business resilience. And I thought, oh my God, I love that word, pivot.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I would I would also say that part of that mindset or a gift that I was given from the the pandemic is permission as a leader to be open to change and permission to be vulnerable to my team that I don't have all the answers, but that I'm making decisions based on my best information that I have at this time and what I think for what is best at for the organization at that point in time. Now it could change in a week, it could change in a month, it could change in a year, but the effort and the insight um is there, right? Versus feeling like I constantly had to necessarily defend a position, that that position is what we would take forevermore. Just recognizing that that the piece about the pivot, it's not necessarily a bad word. You're right. And that it's kind of part of our new normal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I also like the whole idea of dealing with change is to actually make the process of letting go okay. It's so you don't attach your ego to say, oh my goodness, we have to change because I was wrong, this position was wrong. That's like, oh, that experiment didn't work. Let's move on and try another one. It just le lessens the mental pain and anguish that that I personally feel of having potentially wasted resources or been slow or whatever. But yeah, I think the whole, anyway, my whole language has sort of switched to let's try this experiment, let's pivot and just try and focus on that. Because if you don't, it just feels like a grind.

SPEAKER_00:

I I agree. And I think that's one reason why I've been able to be at the same company for 25 years and feel that every day is new, that every day I'm gonna learn something. Every day there is going to be some kind of surprise. It might be a bad surprise, it might be a good surprise. Um, and I'm really vested in the notion of organizational learning. So, how can we analyze our screw-ups, right? And figure out how to not repeat them and gain particular insights. I remember that um we were working on a line extension and we conceptualized this line extension based on our assessment of what we thought the market needed. And we felt that the market needed another product that was similar to what we had, but in another format. And so when we when we were working with our formulators um and manufacturers on this particular format, we discovered that it was really hard actually to get it made, even though at the outset we thought that it was easy. So we probably worked on it for about 18 months. And then at some point in our project management meetings, we looked back and said, you know what, let us look at what is what is it that we're trying to do? What is the original objective? And I remember having this insane aha moment, which was, you know what? The problem that we were trying to solve wasn't that the market needed another format. It was more that there needed to be another dosage form, another dose, another strength, really. And when we when we looked at the problem from a completely different perspective, all of a sudden there were multiple and new possible solutions. And so that's kind of like an example of pivoting where we were just hellbent on this particular solution and all hands were on deck and committed to one particular pathway. And then when we realized, you know what, this pathway is not gonna work, and furthermore, it's actually not even really solving the original objective. That was a huge learning. And so we've incorporated this process into our organization of really, really thinking through and taking extra time to think through what ultimately is our objective. And sometimes it might seem like we're being um, I don't know, maybe taking too long or applying too much rigor to that. But ultimately I've learned that that is time well spent so that we don't go down a particular path that ultimately won't serve us.

SPEAKER_02:

Tamara, you're reminding me of my favorite quote that I will have a lot of favorite comes from the one I read this morning that I really liked. If it doesn't challenge you, it won't change you. And both of you, uh, it's so interesting that I'm just writing all this stuff down because I personally didn't love the word pivot when pharma started telling me to vet about it. Actually, I was out of pharma when uh we had the pandemic where everyone used that word. And it was novel for pharma because and big companies, frankly, because big pharma doesn't pivot easily or doesn't want to pivot. Big companies, I don't want to, you know, put it on pharma. This is why I love pharma. People said to me so many times, and it was the reason I left, stay in your own lane. Someone actually said it to me from HR at the end of my career in Pharma. And I was like, why? Why do I have to stay? Like, I can't learn that bad. And all these things, I think the you two both, you probably realize that uh you have a lot of things in common. We could talk for hours, but the one thing you have is this ability to what do you what is that expression? Um, uh, color out of the lines. And well, you're able to do that in a way that's structured as well, though. That's the other thing that you two have that I don't have, which is this ability to really organize yourselves on a very quick base, in a quick basis and keep people around you organized as well, at the same time not closing your mind to these pivots. That's a really different skill for me, a human skill that frankly, you know, we hire people in these corporations that are very much like expertise of something or, you know, uh leadership, which is such a big, I hate that word. That's the word that bugs me, leadership. Uh, this whole idea of being able to be agile, I like that word more, creates this ability in your organizations, which I can see live with both of you, because it's been decades, that you can do things quickly but also well. And that is, by the way, the name of the game today. So in the last six months, as you know, things have completely been upside down from every possible way in technology, which will impact healthcare and of course the politics we won't even talk about. If you cannot pivot during peace times, you are not very useful. And, you know, I tell my son all the time, I used to think, you know, you need to be a specialist in something, but now just go learn everything you can and have a million jobs. So you have created uh almost like a model for that that frankly could instruct pharma and they would pay a lot of money to go to courses to see how they could do it. Um, the other piece that you talked about, I just wanted to touch, is the culture. And that's hard to do in a small company because sometimes the culture takes over. And one of the things you both have in common, which I find is really fascinating, is that you can work with your families. And I was astounded when I came in. I think by the fourth time I came into your office at Tamara, I realized like most of the people there are your relatives. I didn't realize. And I was like, oh, that's you know, how do you do it? How do you have your father still in the business? We all know Mr. Seals. He has such a great influence and he's almost always right. Um, but I just want to say that is really hard. And Lisa, you've had obviously your kids around you, uh, you know, and they're younger, but they're part of your business. Of course, you worked with your husband. Maybe tell us a little bit more, both of you actually, about that family uh dynamic. And Lisa, I didn't give a chance to you to talk more about your company as well and what it does and why these questions are relevant.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so let me just get the business description done first. Uh so many resources has three lines of business. And the three lines of business uh have a product each, and the product is each of the products is related at its core through the distribution of consumer health information, which is validated, verified, and thus trustworthy. Yeah. And uh we've spent a lot of effort in making sure people have trust in our health information. It's one of the pillars of MedIResource. So the first line of business is large uh collections or databases of consumer health information that we license to uh pharmacy retailers and to insurance companies. The types of health information that we license out are drug information, uh, condition information, lighter health and wellness, uh, a lighter editorial style of article. We have a database of common FAQs around health, uh, natural products is another area we cover. And uh we do a business of licensing that health information. Our second line of business is direct-to-consumer information campaigns or advertising campaigns that we sell to either brand pharmaceutical manufacturers or non-prescription product manufacturers. And what we have, how we built this product was we took all of the health information that we licensed out to everyone and we put it on a few websites which have over the years become very well indexed by Google. And hence uh we've been able to generate over time because we are viewed by Google and the users of Google as a trusted source of health information. We've managed to build together an audience of about 5.5 million Canadians looking at our health information every year. And uh the third line of business, which also has our consumer health information incorporated into it, is a corporate wellness software that we uh provide typically uh via channel partners who are typically insurance companies or benefits consultants. And the product, the corporate wellness product is called Health Connected. And what it does is it solves the problem for employers and uh our channel partners, the insurers. And that problem is that people, employees out there, do not actually have a good understanding of what benefits are available to them. And even if they know what benefits are available to them, they don't really know how to access them. So the the journey, the customer or sorry, the employee experience uh with benefits is very fragmented. It's hard to find them, hard to know what they are. And what our software does is it gathers what your health risks are and then connects employees to the benefits they need and that they have at an employer level uh based on their health risks. So we solve a problem of connecting people to the benefits they need for employers and uh our channel partners insurance companies. So those are the three lines of business that MedIResource runs. So uh I was one of the founders of Medisource almost 29, uh, sorry, almost 30 years ago. It is 29 years now. My my business partner, uh, I had two business partners, but the the main guy who came up with the idea was my husband, uh Paul Costa. And so Paul was the leader of the business for many years. Um, and then unfortunately, he uh was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2016 and died of it in 2018. And while I was not the official CEO in 2016, I was definitely the official CEO by 2018. And it's been um it's been a really insightful journey to run a business. I was essentially the chief operating officer and he was the CEO. It is really interesting and uh to run a business with your husband. Uh and uh Tamara, I don't know how you do it with your dad because I know how challenging it is for someone you love so much to have to um converse with them and not agree with them, get your point across without too much emotion, figure out a solution. It's just add that on top of all the other things that you have to deal with with this very much loved person in your life. It's a little much. But uh we manage to do do that through our lives. And I don't ever uh uh tell people, well, no, I most of the time I tell them, you know, don't be afraid of working with your spouse. But you have to be really, you know, you have to handle it and figure out strategies to deal with it. Um, my kids have tended to play um have uh uh uh jobs like summer jobs and whatnot uh for in the business. And that is because particularly now with the youth unemployment rate so high, um, we have always at many resources made sure we kept a strong pipeline of young people being hired for some of the entry-level piecework that has to happen at the business. And we've conscientiously kept that role alive. My own children have filled those roles from time to time, but you know, a whole bunch of other kids have uh young people have as well. I worry in AI that the opportunity for entry-level positions is uh is going to get much, much harder. So for us, we're conscientiously trying to make sure there's still an opportunity at MIDI Resource for young people to come and get that entry-level position uh experience that they need. But yeah, that's the way my my children have been involved in the business as well.

SPEAKER_02:

And you have another business which we didn't talk about, which is another uh intersection between you and Tamara. You both love dance. So the little thing about Beyonce was real. Tell us about your other business since you have so much time on your hands to you know start new things all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

So uh yeah, this is um, I I'm really, really happy about this um application of my planning mind. So when I became a widow, I just I was looking 10 years down the road and plotting out when my children would be leaving the house and thinking, you know, I better have a plan because when this house is empty and there's no kids here, I am going to be super bored. And so I'd always wanted to do, I'd been involved in the dance world via my daughter for many years. And I had always sort of been interested in doing a business uh in the dance world, and an opportunity happened to cross my path. And I thought, you better take up the take uh this opportunity and take advantage of it being here. So myself and my two partners, Nicole Russov and Aaron Aquino Annabelle, uh started a dance studio that opened its doors uh in January of 2023. It's called Run the Flex. It's located on Young Street, just south of the Rosedale subway stop. And it is a fascinating intersection between um health and behavior change. I just find it just such a fascinating study of how you achieve that in a brick and mortar facility like a dance studio versus how you achieve that with health technology. So in both businesses, we're trying to change or we are achieving uh health health behavior change because and the dance studio itself is very, very efficient and effective at it. The software is trying to achieve many of the same things, and it is very challenging. So we've tried to merge the two and things that you learn at one, I've tried to introduce to the other business. And uh anyway, it's just been a fascinating. Playground in this area.

SPEAKER_00:

And I would just say, Orchid, you have no idea how within, let me see, was it 30 minutes of meeting Lisa, that I said, this woman and I, we are kindred spirits. Yeah. We have so many points of connectivity. You would not even believe that there were times I actually um planned or dreamt that with excess warehouse space at Seaford, that I would turn that into a dance studio. That's hilarious. Okay, so that isn't just to me.

SPEAKER_02:

See, okay, I just have to say the word pivot, by the way, is a dance word.

SPEAKER_00:

It certainly is. It certainly is. And I remember it was, I remember like I got like um goosebumps when I was talking to Lisa because it was like, how can we have so many things in common, right? Like three kids, both hockey and dance, Caribbean background and and pharma, you know, biotech, whatnot. And um, the dance thing is totally what put it completely over the top.

SPEAKER_02:

Something you both mentioned that's really, really important to me is this building of trust. And I think this actually really resonates with me, especially with my personal journey, because, you know, every drug company I've worked for, and I've worked for uh six giant ones, one of them wasn't so giant at first, US and Canada, said we're very human-centric, patient-centric, everything we do is about patience. Absolutely. I've, you know, I admire this industry. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without it. And of course, uh everything is patient-centric and for the health of humans. What really bothered me was inside those companies, I didn't feel that all the time. And that's that goes back to the trust level sometimes. And there were times when we were, you know, creating, I don't know, the best possible outcome for people with multiple sclerosis, for instance. But I felt that inside those organizations, and again, it's not one organization, it's just the feel I had about large corporation kind of feel, is that I couldn't exercise that. Here's an example. So, for instance, there's a firewall in pharma that may or may not still exist, I'm not sure why it came this way, between, um, of course, it's a compliance thing, between um drug reps going to patient organization meetings. To me, that was a complete mess because if people selling a drug that is helping people live with multiple sclerosis better cannot understand how hard this disease is for a young woman who's taking her child up the stairs, they don't understand how to sell this drug. They don't understand what that person needs. To me, that was so important to be able to get that understanding of the patient right into the commercial role. So things like that always bothered me. And I know it was for the right reason that you're not supposed to, you know, maybe, you know, confidentiality, privacy, but there are other ways of doing this. And so for you guys, so that to me, it sort of changed the trust level in terms of, you know, patient advocacy groups don't always trust pharma. Uh, patients themselves, when they go online, the last place they want to go to is a pharma website sometimes. And that's why Lisa's site is so well trafficked, because it's very hands-off from uh the bias of pharma. So all of those things, how do you build that trust within your organization, but also specifically the people you partner with? Because you're constantly partnering, collaborating, you're too small to do it alone. Is there something that you think about or is it just ingrained in what you're doing? I guess Tamara I'll talk to you about this because I know recently you've made so much change in your organization and you've got a big product launch coming.

SPEAKER_00:

So, what I think is interesting about you were saying what you were saying, Orchid, and then I had going through my mind is the notion that so many of us toggle between different roles wearing different hats. So, while um I'm president of Seaford and I'm trying to commercialize healthcare solutions, I'm also a consumer of healthcare solutions. I'm also a patient like everybody else at some point. And so it provides such interesting color and context to when you're playing different roles, thinking about what it's like to be on the other side of the equation, whatever that equation might be. And so I think to establish the trust, what's really important is to have basic respect and to operate from a position of authenticity. And I think that if that's used as a North Star if you're as a talisman, which is no matter what, I want, I want to be a person of respect and authenticity. And I'm going to approach that in my work. I'm going to approach it with my team. I'm going to approach it with a strategy that ultimately that will filter its way through. Obviously, there's times when it gets diluted or perhaps it might get off track. But I think ultimately it ends up being brought back on track if that's that's what the the foundation, that's what kind of the route is, without trying to sound too philosophical. But does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, Lisa, for from your side, you've got a lot of health information that people seek been seeking for a long time on your site. Why do they trust yours versus WebMD? I mean, there was a time when, again, the time when we were sitting on the train where I put a product name into Google and your site came up before that pharma manufacturer site. So obviously there's trust there that's SEO'd, you know, your company that way. So why?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So first I want to say I think tomorrow is completely right. Um, and it's, I think it actually starts with the leadership. Uh, and you need to figure out a way to get trust to trickle through or what you're you get to decide as a leader, what are you going to do to ensure that you're being real to the people that work with you so that it it trickles through and they they they trust you as a leader and they trust the business. So when I think about the I'm a pharmacist as well, and uh pharmacy has always won these, you know, consumer uh polls and surveys for being one of the most trusted healthcare professionals uh around. And it's a lot of it is probably because they're so accessible and you can walk in to a pharmacy off the street and find them, right? And then see them in their element. So when we started Medisource as pharmacists, we wanted to apply our principles as pharmacists, which was generally giving evidence-based medicine or evidence-based information to consumers. And we knew that working with MediResource, we could do this at scale, not just giving good info to a few people in a pharmacy, but you know, millions of people via the web. So I think that initial position that we are pharmacists and we're gonna employ the standards that we have been taught around evidence-based information to this content that we put out to the public and to our for our customers, we're gonna do that. And I think that was the base, that's the bedrock upon which our trust is built on. And then what's I think has happened is that we have not followed the trend, which is a good and bad thing, of getting to these very short, soundbitey pieces of information. When you look at our health information, it's longer format. Um, it sort of follows the structure typically, each article within a database. So that's that bucks the trend. And and it's it's it's not the kind, it's more in-depth, it's more precise and detailed. And the people who uh are going to our content when they find it in Google are the ones who don't want to click on ads. There, we find that we're attracting people who are more discerning consumers of health information. They're looking for the truth. They're they're looking for something that is unbiased, and that's why he's clicking on our health information.

SPEAKER_02:

Definitely. I mean, you can see it in the results, right? I mean, it's different, it's a different type of person. But even in this age of AI, and I'm purposely not talking about AI at this session because I'm tired of hearing the word AI or the words AI, but it's you you do add uh those tech. Well, let's just say you have added AI to the other side of your business, but that is not why it's thriving. And it goes back to what I always um coach people on, you know, the moat around your business is that trust, is the people, is the um the fact that you have a community of people who continue to come back, not so much the fancy schmancy stuff that we get now with all of the new tech that's out there.

SPEAKER_01:

We also, though, in our choice of AI technology to integrate in, decided to use one that did have credibility around it, is um, has like there is validating its results and is is showing that it is accurate and one should be able to trust it. Oh, and just the the other thing just about this whole concept of trust. So if you if you're leading with the intent of creating trust and and you're using authenticity and being transparent and sharing information as much as you can within your business, when you have partnerships, you can adopt those same principles. And I actually think you get better results because you're not cagey with your partners. You just, you know, you're you're doing this free sharing of information as much as you can to get a job done. And so, you know, we we partner with you, and God knows that we are freely sharing information between us as much as we can in the scenarios. We actually do a good job that way because we uncover all sorts of little loggy things that we didn't realize. And if we were being cagey and not telling each other as much as we do, we might not figure those things out and or might we might get blindsided. So trust infiltrates a business from the leadership, from its interactions with the people within the business, with its partnerships, trust in our products. It's just trust is a really big deal.

SPEAKER_00:

You're right. Lisa, and when you think about it, um, we ourselves are so cynical and um non-trusting often as consumers, right? So the only way to combat that is with that authenticity, right? And and by being as upfront and transparent as possible.

SPEAKER_02:

Tamara, can I ask you specifically on trust and people that are in your organization that have to be external facing? So the talent, you know, we talk a lot about attracting the right talent. You mentioned that it's harder and harder in some ways, even though the market's, you know, full of people who need jobs right now. You have a smaller organization when it comes to pharma comparisons, you, you know, your talent has to be much more efficient. They're probably covering a lot more ground. Like as an example, you have sales reps that have multiple products that is not common in pharma where they only have one, you know, big one kind of thing. So is there something there with the way you hire your team members? And because this trust with them is front-facing with your customer. So that's at even a higher level that they need to have. So you're not cutting corners, obviously. Do you think about that in terms of the hiring? And I guess in general, when you think about how you hire and how you manage your talent, what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, great point, Orchid. And um I've come, it's been such a journey in terms of my philosophy about that. And it's been based on iterations, trial and error. Um, initially, my thinking was to model the staff or what the perfect staff would look like off of big pharma. And based on my experience, I discovered that that didn't necessarily translate into organizational success. Because I think for many individuals, um even if they are extremely smart, they might have picked up certain traits or uh culture or expectations from being in a different kind of environment. And while it's not wrong or right, it's just different. So we look for individuals that are interested and motivated in duplicity versus singularity. And that's really, really key. And it's it's it's so core to the hiring success because um it's really important that someone has a particular mindset and an openness and even a desire to be in an environment or to work with things that are constantly changing and that are different. It's not for everybody versus the individual who wants to have more of a repeat, wants it to be more predictable. And again, it's necessary and that's all fine. It's not a judgment call. It's more about kind of differences and really focusing on that. So over time, we really have kind of honed in on what we think is an appropriate mindset and skill set for success in our organization.

SPEAKER_02:

And I know you're trying different um things in your organization in terms of um digitizing some things and you're doing a little bit of not so much experiments, but I think soon you'll be able to have answers that some other companies don't in terms of, you know, when is it the best time to have a big stack of sales reps across the organization? Exactly. You know, some of the things that you're dealing with are exactly what they're dealing with, and multiply the cost. You know, we have a large country and we've always had this mindset that we need sales reps across the organization. I lived 16 years of my life managing sales reps. I love them, they're amazing. But sometimes they were not optimized. And so we we've talked about this and trying to replace some of those resources with digital. We'll see. We still don't have the answers, but I would love to have a session uh coming up to see if that works because I think it'll definitely help uh our other customers as well. But uh yeah, so that innovation and so you're looking for people who can again hate to use this word again, pivot a little bit within their job. So that's great. So maybe one of my last questions here, I can talk forever. I just learning new things. I I know each of you individually, but now collectively I'm learning new things, which is interesting. This this dance that you have, and I want to use that word dance because it is a bit of a dance, I guess, when you when you try to pivot. And I said to you guys, I don't like leadership, but what is that word that you would use that would sort of ground you as a leader? So, you know, this these podcasts are going to be very focused on what I call trailblazers, and I've defined that as people who can um create new things, take risks, but also have uh the ability to lead others to follow them, because not everyone is an innovator. So with that in mind, I I see you two both of the both of you as that trailblazer. But if you have that one definition of leader trailblazer that you would give yourself, if you if there was a billboard that said, you know, Tamara is a trailblazer, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00:

Um curiosity. So I think it's really important to constantly be curious, to ask questions. Why, why is something the way that it is? Um to stay humble. In our industry, you can never be too smart. And maybe being too smart gives you ego, right? And I don't have a science background, I have a business background, and so I always check myself, right? Like I'm I'm not a pharmacist, I'm not a scientist, okay, fine, but I do know how to run a business. Um, and so I have confidence in my skill set, but I I will I won't hesitate to defer to others as a subject matter expert at all. Um and I recognize that even though I am often think of myself as perhaps an expert on something because of how many years of experience that I might have had, there's always something to learn, always something to do differently. And I think another piece to it is there's this combination between the curiosity, you know, the humility, critical thinking, and then the motivation. Because I find that people pick up from my energy. So if I'm at 60%, my team will be 40. If I'm at 100, my team might be at 80. So that's another thing that I think is a really core piece to the leadership element, which is understanding that people look to you for not only strategic direction, um, but for that motivation and being a source of that energy, I think is really important.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm gonna ask this a different way from Lisa. I think um you you mentioned so many things that I'm sure Lisa would agree with. If I was peeking at your Spotify list, Lisa, what's the one song that says this is my trailblazer anthem?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so there's a variety of things on my uh Spotify list. Um and generally it's either house music or jazz these days. And I will say that the if I it's uh to look at the house music that's on there and and oh wait, no, to to say why why does make it music make it onto that Spotify list? It's generally if it gives me a certain sense of joy. And that's what I realized about um uh music that I like, uh, and that what one of my chief sources of joy in my life is is music. And generally it's jazz and house music that does that. And um, so if I were gonna say, how does that music and that insight on what the what the music's doing for me, how what is how does that relate to my leadership? So I'm at I'm an optimist. Um, and uh I tend to be a very happy person, no matter how bad things get, I'm still pretty happy. And I I I think I'm also fairly uh balanced uh in my response to things. If I to describe myself as a leader, I'd probably say I'm a balanced geek. But um the the the Spotify question should be honed down to why is that music on your list? Because it gives me joy. Am I a joyful person? Absolutely. That's what I'm all about. And it kind of shows in my leadership and how I run the business.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. I'm sorry, I I surprised you. I should I'm trying to make a list of joyful music actually. So when you do have it, I'll put it into the the production. But uh, is there anything tomorrow that comes to mind for you? A piece of music that when I think of because for me, music is life.

SPEAKER_00:

Music is absolutely life. And what I think that it my um playlist gives me is the it's the energy, it's the emotion, it's the motivation, it's the intensity. It's um sometimes it will give me that vehicle that I need to feel that bad bitch that I need to feel, right? To say the things that maybe I don't I I am a little bit too scared to say, but that I can say no matter what. So it helps me with my uh my inner tiger.

SPEAKER_02:

Another big thank you to Lisa and Tamara for kicking off Think Her Talk with me. You've shown us what it looks like to lead with grit, creativity, and trust, and how to do it while staying human. That's exactly what this industry needs. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to our very first episode. If you found inspiration here, please share this conversation with someone who could use a dose of grit and growth today. Until next time, stay bold, stay human, and keep trailblazing.