Entrepreneur & Intrapreneur: Two Paths to Human Impact

In this episode of ThinkrTalk, we explore two distinct — yet deeply connected — paths to creating meaningful impact: building from within and building from the outside.

Featuring Karine Matteau (Pharma Executive) and Tonya Dickenson (Founder of Asymmetric by Design), this conversation brings together an intrapreneur shaping change inside a global pharma organization and an entrepreneur redefining sustainability and consumer behavior through her own venture.

Together, they unpack what it really takes to lead with purpose in complex environments — from navigating regulation and limited resources to challenging conventional business models and driving innovation through constraint.

We cover:

•  How intrapreneurs create change within established systems 
•  Why constraints often fuel the most impactful innovation 
•  The role of data, intuition, and human judgment in decision-making 
•  How values-driven leadership shapes long-term outcomes 
•  Why impact is less about role — and more about mindset 

A grounded, honest conversation about leadership, risk, and responsibility — and how both paths can ultimately drive meaningful, human-centered change.

Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this conversation, please don't forget to share, like and spread the word about ThinkrTalk!

ThinkrTalk celebrates Life Science Innovators, Doers and Dreamers reshaping healthcare — one bold step at a time. 

Follow the ThinkrBelle page for future podcasts! Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs a spark, and please leave a quick review to tell us what you think.

Until next time, Keep TRAILBLAZING!

This episode of ThinkrTalk was hosted by Orchid Jahanshahi and Produced by Marc Kostoff of The Basement Studios.

Transcript

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Welcome To Thinker Talk

Music 0:00 Orchid 0:11

Welcome to ThinkrTalk. ThinkrTalk is where leaders at the intersection of health, tech, and human impact come together to talk honestly about what it really takes to make meaningful change. This isn't a podcast about hype, perfection, or overnight success. It's about real decisions, real risks that people have made. The moments where leadership actually shows up inside organizations, outside of them, and all the places in between. So today's conversation explores two powerful paths to leadership. They're often positioned as opposites, but in reality, they're deeply complementary. The entrepreneur and the intrapreneur. I didn't know what the word uh intrapreneur was until I came out of intrapreneurship personally. Our guests, Karine and Tonya, began as strong pharma leaders, driven by purpose, curiosity, and a desire to make a difference. Karine chose to lead transformation from inside the company. And as an entrepreneur, she takes very calculated risks, is very curious, and often steps forward when others hesitate. And then Tonya went outside her organization to build something of her own. She moved from pharma to entrepreneurship, and her journey really reflects this courage that takes, that we need to have to create that impact independently. And both of them I know from my world inside pharma as well, within the same company. So I feel like I'm back hanging out with my sisters, which is really exciting. Both of you lead with humanity. You both take a lot of risk. And I think you both believe that that leadership is not, it's not about the title, but there's a responsibility there when you're a leader. At ThinkorTalk, we really believe that innovation only matters when it reaches people and it's actionable. It's not just a position or a conversation we have with a framework. It actually works when you're doing what you say what you do. And uh you are two people who do that entirely authentically. You do a lot of you say a lot of things that matter, but you also uh follow that and you execute it. So let's uh get into your to this conversation that we're gonna have. I'm gonna start with with Karine. Um so leadership and trailblazing. I mean, one of the things that I really love doing with this show is having uh trailblazers come and talk about what that really means. And to me, trailblazing is is not just creating and innovating, but it's doing something where others are also following you when you're doing that. So let's start with

Meet Karine And Tonya

Orchid 2:46

some introductions. So, Karine, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey up to now?

Karine 2:52

Of course, Orchid. Um, listen, I'm um a nutritionist by training. Uh when I started, uh I was always uh super interested about nutrition and science. And uh for some reason ended up in the Pharma world. So uh it'd been uh in the pharma world for over 25 years, um, mainly in um commercial strategy roles, uh, which uh evolved me to now uh the role that I have, which is uh the vice president of commercial office, acting as a chief commercial officer for a large pharmaceutical company in Canada. And um, you know, what we do is uh really offering to uh to patients off-patent solutions uh that are more accessible and uh in various therapeutic care areas.

Orchid 3:42

Thank you. And uh I'll ask the same question. Um Tonya, um, tell us a little bit about your journey from pharma to many things and to right now running asymmetric by design.

Tonya 3:55

Uh thank you, Orchid. Um so similar to um Karine, I actually stumbled into pharma. I have a degree in pure mathematics and uh economics, as well as MBA. Um I spent a close to 25 years in pharmaceuticals, both at Abbott and Novartis. Then I had the opportunity of living abroad in the Middle East, and there I worked on all kinds of cool things, including uh running the Special Olympics, which was quite uh pushed me really outside of my comfort zone. Uh coming back into Canada, I launched Army of Masks, which was my first foray into entrepreneurship, and it gave me the courage actually to say, okay, if I could do something in total lockdown with zero resources, what could I do when the shops were open? And uh so I launched uh asymmetric by design. And uh so we are we upcycle um semi-precious jewelry. So all of our designs are fully circular. That means they can be infinitely redesigned, and we provide uh metrics um certified in terms of water saved and carbon not emitted. And we've won uh many awards last year, so both in terms of Emerging Entrepreneur of Quebec. Um I'm one of the top women, uh, 50 women globally sustainability. Um, and in fashion, um a triple finalist uh for Montreal Fashion Week. So uh it's going well, but uh still lots to be done. And um we're look we're here to empower women and help protect the environment.

Orchid 5:27

So, what we're gonna talk about is how women's leadership paths are not one-dimensional. So, whether you're working in a large company or building a startup from nothing, there's that commitment to making real change, shaping markets, being responsible, doing that. And so, what does trailblazing actually look like when you're an entrepreneur versus whether you're working outside that uh that world of pharma and you're doing it on your own as an entrepreneur? So I'm gonna start with Karine.

Trailblazing Inside Regulated Pharma

Orchid 5:56

Tell me about what has changed in that world that you're in, in the world of pharma, in terms of creating um to be a trailblazer. What would you say um has shifted in your career with respect to that?

Karine 6:11

Thanks Orchid and by the way, I want to say that I'm super excited to join this uh discussion and rejoining my uh fellow uh former colleagues. And uh I have great memories of us uh working together and the years that followed because we always stayed connected. So um I want to say that uh, you know, in pharma, we know it's a highly regulated uh, you know, uh industry and environment. And um many would see this as a barrier, uh, but I always saw that as an opportunity. Uh why? Because um while most of the people or others would uh take uh a more conservative, risk-free behavior and following the rules, um, I also look um always at paths that people did never consider, uh, because it's an opportunity to find another way, right, to do things or uh uh that is still compliant but uh differentiated and uh new. Uh so for me, a trailblazer um does a job, um, do what's needed to do to create the value uh for an organization, and this this case is big global pharmaceutical companies, but also they build a system, they adapt the system locally so that we can create value, but it could we could see that we we can meet the needs of the company, the customers, but also the end users. In our cases, it is patients and people that are really vulnerable. So for for me was always to create attraction, uh, to see and identify who needed to be involved or who needed to be um uh reached out to influence so that we can create new ways of doing the business in Canada. And this is something that that really uh uh is something that I started to do more at as the years and as the positions that I had evolved, I was more less into the execution, but more about the okay, let's try to create this environment uh that would uh really um create a win-win-win between the manufacturer, the patients, and also our customers, which are healthcare professionals and they do a really uh important job.

Orchid 8:25

So, Karine, in the world, um you're describing something that is relatively new to me because I have been out of pharma since 2019. Um, Tonya, you've been out of it even longer. So when you're hearing Karine talk about um what this is as a trailblazer, can you tell me a little bit about what you've seen

Building New Systems For Access

Orchid 8:44

the shift? Because you were there even before. What has changed, especially as a woman being a trailblazer?

Tonya 8:51

Okay. Well, um, thank you um for this uh wonderful invitation, and I'm thrilled to be with the two of you uh today. Um I wouldn't necessarily start with women. I think um what I saw in pharmaceuticals um, especially when we were launching like breakthrough medication in in uh diseases that were untreated, for example, lucentis, is um, you know, we had to build a whole new system. These were injections in the eye, so building that whole system of trust and clinics that could actually you know um deliver these uh injections, um, but also the trust of the patients. And more important and more personally, I was leading the Department of Marketing Intelligence, and in order to get reimbursement, we had to be very creative in a trailblazing uh opportunity that we we proposed to the the reimbursements is the product listing agreements uh in order to actually gain um access and gain reimbursement and so you know to be able to to benefit the patients. And so that was one of the you know big trailblazing in I think in in all aspects um of uh pharma. So that's what the last thing I saw basically when I left is uh so there's we can be trailblazers in in in many different ways. And I I love the French expression, nothing is impossible. And as soon as you say, okay, this is possible, how do we make it possible? Uh you just think out of the box. So it's really out of the box. And even though pharma is your to your point, Karine , very, very uh regulated, there are things that we've got to do.

Orchid 10:32

So then but you're talking from the perspective of both of you are very entrepreneurial in your mindset. So if you were really honest to about this in terms of the tough parts, right? Of of trying to trailblaze as a pharma company, but there are regulations and there are things that are in your way, and they still are. Those things haven't changed. Some things have changed and that innovation is making some of these things faster. But I mean, going back to Karine, is there something, and let's let's call, I guess in your case, the trailblazing is being an entrepreneur within pharma, what we're calling entrepreneurship. Has that changed? Have like when you and I were working, let's say in 2000, I don't know, 16 on a project. I remember it was on diversity. Back then it was called diversity and inclusion. It was in DEI. I remember you and I were trying to innovate with how do sales reps behave differently? How do we get rid of unconscious bias? But again, that is entrepreneurial because we were the first and we did it in the world of sales management rather than just an HR thing. So I thought that was pretty entrepreneurial. But now you think about, you know, what's there today? Do you feel that I agree, it's not a female thing, but do you think as a as any kind of a person who's trying to make change, that world, that environment's changed, that you can do more of that? Or do you feel that it's more related to your skills that make that happen? Are more people able to become entrepreneurial in these large organizations?

Karine 11:55

Um I I think that opportunity is there. There's definitely, and I think there's a mindset that people need to continue to have, is there's always room for change. First of all, we are in an environment where we have the last um techniques, uh, scientific solutions that are being like um uh presented to uh to customers, to patients, to uh healthcare professionals. So of course we need to follow that science innovation, but very often the structure that is needed to provide patients with those um those innovations uh they cannot stay the same. And even the governments and the provinces and all the different uh stakeholders and this the healthcare system by itself has to evolve. The reimbursement process has to evolve, and this is why uh we cannot sit on the rules, the processes, and do things always the same way. So, because we need to differentiate. So I always think, and I tell my team this often, I said, I say, always say, like, what is think about like in your in your head, and what is the one thing or a few things that you if competition was to succeed in doing, you would be like, shit, we're in trouble, we're in trouble, right? So, and this is where I I tell them and I try even myself, what is it that if we could achieve this, that would help the government, that would help the patients, that would help the healthcare professionals and create a change, right? What is it that we could achieve? And then I try to find a solution and then I move first, and then you make them others, you you make them follow, right? But I I love to be, and I think the harder the environment is, I think that the most motivating it is to be a disruptor and to be yeah, so so that that's that's obviously really unique, I think, among the three of us.

Orchid 13:57

We like to disrupt, yeah, and good or bad, there's good disruption, so there's bad disruption, it could get you fired. But all I'm saying is, and I just posted on this recently that I don't know what it is that some people like to disrupt, and some people like, I don't want to say be complacent, but they kind of don't want to rock the boat. And I I really believe you could do a thesis on this, and I'm very curious because you both disrupted and it did not ruin your careers. In fact, it augmented. What's happening right now with that? And again, I want to go back to women because that's you know, I do everything to uplift women. What's happening with a 30-year-old woman in pharma who doesn't disrupt? And I run into them a lot in my world now. I gotta go past them. Like, there's nothing with age here, by the way. I there are a lot of older people who I meet who are much more disruptive. My dad is 97, he's using technology. So this is where I'm really interested in that. I'm gonna go to Tonya because you had to manage a lot of people in your department of operations management, which to me is is totally underrated that part of a pharma world because I started a market research, I have a huge love of data. Most people in marketing now don't even have to do that, they go straight into marketing. And for me to have seen what the impact of market research and data was on the trajectory of a company and literally having to not launch a product or as we know today, downsizing because a product doesn't need its forecast, all of that is because they got the numbers wrong, they got the forecast wrong. It happens all the time. It shouldn't happen all the time. But never did I hear anyone say, oh, Tonya's department is the reason why we launched this beautiful product. No, no one ever. So, what is it in that non-entrepreneurial environment? Because I have to say, people are not the most exciting, but they are like the crux of all the innovation happening in AI today, in a way. What is it you're and you're a mathematician as well? I just wanted to point out you have a very different side to you. Well, how did you create that entrepreneurship when you've got basically, you know, very strict rules and you know, you're working with numbers.

Speaker 3 15:58

Okay.

Data-Driven Courage In Big Companies

Speaker 3 15:59

Um, so I'm gonna talk about MI, our marketing intelligence, and um basically, you know, I would I would instill upon my team that, you know, wear the hat, you know, you are like a product manager, so behave like one and look at the data and offer the insights um to your product managers, uh, like if you were a product manager. But to go back to data and uh forecasts, um, I will give a concrete example. Um one uh VP had this completely unrealistic forecast of uh of sales forecast, and they wanted that you know to get obviously the marketing expenses. And um I had to go back to him and say, like, this is completely impossible, it's unrealistic, and he wouldn't believe me. So finally I went home that night and said, I'm gonna make a daily patient model for him per day. Do you know the inflow and with all the assumptions? Went back the next day, went over every single assumption with him. Once he agreed with every single assumption, you know, the recension rates, the the uh reimbursement, et cetera, et cetera, um, he realized that he was completely out to lunch. And so I think you know, if you present data in a very respectful way, I uh love triangulating data because you can, you know, you can cherry-pick data as much as you want, but if you can triangulate uh the data through multiple sources, you know, data doesn't lie, and um then that's what I love, you know. So I remove the emotions from it and really um, you know, um work with the data and triangulate. And you know, it's really hard to contest when you you have that level of granularity. You know, I worked on post-code level uh data, you know, during the COVID, I was working again at post-code uh level data following the virus and you know, adapting my my my uh um customer education strategy based on on the post-code, you know, where was the virus? So so you know, there's so much we can do with data. Um, and so yeah, I love mining data. But you use my favorite.

Orchid 18:27

This is what's really amazing. Like when it's very similar to a conversation I'm having these days about people who like AI stuff, which they put in a big chunk as if it's all the same. Basically, AI is like air now, and they're like, I don't do AI. I'm like, it's air. People who like it and people who don't are falling into two different buckets. And the ones who don't, it's almost like they they're okay with assumptions that they had made before, not on reality. And we've seen this. And this is imagine now the strength of that AI and the predictive models and everything in everything that a product manager does now to predict the future. Are they doing that? I'm not sure. We're getting consultants to come and say to you, blah, blah, blah. And this is my biggest beef is we're not using the most obvious things to to figure out patient journeys, for instance, which is Reddit. You know, just stick a Reddit into or Chat GPT, whatever, do that thing on your own, you will get better data than you're getting from your $100,000 a year consultant. And some of them are gonna listen to this going, or kid, you're killing my business. I spent a lot of money on getting good data, which we need, but the part that I didn't spend enough time on was using my own judgment to say, this makes sense, because we made some big mistakes on data. Mind you, our launch was one of the best, and I don't know if artists, and you were you were both involved. But I just want to say that it was to just we questioned it. And the reason I think it was really successful is it was the first time our company brought in people from the outside to launch something that was gonna be really critical. So they had the future competitors, like what Corinne said earlier is key. What's your competitor doing? Why is your head in the

AI, Assumptions, And Better Decisions

Orchid 20:05

sand? And in that case, we I was the competitor, someone else was the competitor, , and we knew, and we were like, no, no, no, those guys are gonna say this. We can't, we fought through, and we pushed the limits that way. And most organizations, sadly, and that happened again for me the sad way later, is we've done this, we're experts, let's just take that model and put it here. Well, the world is moving so fast. So, how are you keeping up to date?

Moneyball Launching With Fewer Resources

Orchid 20:30

And I want to go back to Karine because the biologics is the world that you're in. You went from a brand pharma, I don't know what you call that versus biologists, but anyways, the regular pharma with very large uh you know things, and then you went to a sister company. So you have an incredible mindset of seeing how a big company does it and how a still a giant company, but on the biosimilar does it. Your portfolio is probably 10 or 20 times more than it was before. Complexity is bigger, everything's bigger. How do you create that acuity to understand that data and understand what your competition is doing when you're launching against so many competitors? We had one product, you got like 10, and you're one and you have less resources, you have a lot less resources, right, than you did at Novartis. So, how does that work? Because you're obviously thriving.

Karine 21:24

Well, first of all, like when when I moved from um the big pharma to what we call it, the off-patent company, uh, because we do uh I'm I'm right now like overseeing uh the full portfolio, where whether it's a biosimilar or generic or um, but of course, when when we do that transfer from um a highly regulated, a lot of resources, a lot of people, a lot of experts, right, working on those brands. And uh uh you had one director for each molecule, and you go very, very Deep into creating a behavior change into the healthcare system. It's a little bit different when you go onto the other side. But what's different on the other side is you've got a mix. You've got a mix of legacy generic, we know the model where it's performing well, we know the recipe with pharmacists to okay, there's a new type of animal in the uh pharma world, which is a biosimilar, it's not generic, but it's not a brand, but you need to prescribe it. So we, and we didn't have a lot the same resource because you don't have the same margin, right? So of course, if you want to provide the um the countries and the citizens uh with lower cost healthcare solutions, you have also to you cannot sell it the same way, right? Because you don't you need to make this profitable so that you can give a rebate to the governments and to the people. So um you have to see things differently. And this is, I always made the allusions to the movie Moneyball. And it was like, okay, it's money ball time. We cannot do the same thing as uh as we used to do in the brand world. Um, the brand world will expect us to do the same thing. The gin some generic players won't do do uh that they don't have the knowledge, but um, it forces you to innovate. And I have an example where where where we reached out to you when you you created a daya, and then we had like a small field force, and um we didn't have the power of 30 people in the field to know what to do, which customers to go see. We couldn't be, we could not be like experts in dermatology, ornithology, gastroenterology, neuroscience, and all the different therapeutic fields that we were covering with our biosimilars. So we had a very small field footprint. I was like, okay, let's play, let's play differently. So, what what innovation exists there using AI, using uh uh databases that could create a small team of eight, ten reps as effective as 35, right? Didn't want to repeat the the brand model of having an army of reps everywhere and just like just go by making more noise. We need it to be more effective, or we need it to go see the right people. So um when we talk about innovation, for me it's not only like uh uh you know a new a new drug. For me, it's more like something disruptive, something you do differently. Uh, it's a triple win between us, the customers, and the patients. So if you do have a triple min for me, for me triple win, sorry, for me, it's we have a shiny object and we can maybe disrupt a little bit. I like to surprise. I like to surprise a competition. So um for me, it was like entering in a in um in a new playground because nobody really knew how to launch those biosimilars and what to do and what are the key things. And it was more like, okay, let's try. Let's try a few things, but let's not do like others.

Orchid 25:06

So I love that so much. And I I honestly think if I had gone into a small scrappy company and I would have stayed in that forever because for me, that's the exciting thing as well. I think that's it. Three of us have that in common in that we want to we like the scrappy problem. We like to hustle, but we also like to find the solution. There's some something that happens in our bodies that even though it doesn't make money for me now as an entrepreneur, I go down that those rabbit holes, unfortunately, because I'm like, I just fixed someone's problem. It's not making me money, but it's making me feel so good. That is worth something that way. No, but it's true because then in a very large organization that has all the bureaucracy, you're not getting joy, you're just solving problems sometimes, not always. But I just wanted to pick up on that. You mentioned margins, you mentioned being uh scrappy a little bit, the scarcity thing. It goes back to never let a good crisis go to waste. That's one of my biggest uh lines that I use all the time. We went to big companies. So that's what I'm trying to say. You the scarcity created your innovation, I believe. And that was a start of a many things. But what is it that so can you do that in a big organization? I guess that's my or is that my dreaming to say it's almost like can we go hurt people so that they can do better things? Because the scarcity comes with a lot of pain. It's not fun to be without budget. You went from a ton of budget, ton of you know, glamour when it comes to you're out in the new world and oh, you're a biologic. I mean, but it's not the same as oh, you're broke. And I hate to say this, but that that is not hearing what you're saying. I think we should have brought in people from the other side. I think we should have gone into the scrappy companies and said, who's surviving, who's doing well, brought them into the big companies and said, You're gonna do well, because maybe there's a complacency. And this is I don't know if I'm making sense, Karine but you're one of those people that like you roll your sleeves up, you're like, I don't care about the e it's not the ego, you just want to make it happen.

Karine 27:03

Yeah, I think it's it's hard to do. One of the key things would be maybe if you is you use you target the people that need innovation to survive, like we were, and then and then you make it work, and then we can show the recipes for success, and then you show others because sometimes in the in a big company you have you you you have the luxury of not taking that risk because you've got other options, but they cost more, or you think you've got other options, they cost more, but the impact is different. So it's really in situations of crisis that you create an opportunity, right? It's it's always there there's a proverb about that in the I think it's the Chinese uh I think images that you have like opportunity into this. So for me, it's always like that. When you feel the discomfort and you have no choice, you have no choice to innovate it because you cannot do what the big ones are doing. So I think it just creates openness to innovation. So whenever a company wants to innovate, you go see the ones that have no choice. There's maybe also some co-creation of uh of what we want to do, sharing the risk, and um, and then just uh cross-polices.

Orchid 28:21

We really learned from that, though, is what I'm saying. And going back to Tonya's world, look, Tonya is not Cartier, but I can bet you anything if you walk into this the world of Cartier, and I'm just saying this randomly because I haven't, but I did go to the Hermes store in Paris and I was knocked out. But, anyways, let's go to Cartier. Um they have a gazillion resources and money. I bet you anything. I don't see an innovative uh people are buying Cartier things because it looks the same as us before. I don't see Cartier uh coming to me and saying, um, we're gonna do something very asymmetric, we're gonna have our engagement rings uh asymmetric, you know, because people aren't buying that. So what I'm saying is that innovation is different for them. But uh it could be that if they did something asymmetric with their something, it would sell. They just it just doesn't happen in that mindset. So it's the scarcity, it's the uh risk taking that happens. But also what's really interesting is when you do make it big, this is what happened with your example, Karine. Someone's gonna be the FOMO sets in with those companies. They're like, if Sandos can do it, then we should be able to do it. So we went from that conversation to if those guys can do it, you can do it. And they were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes the FOMO is the only way that you can get the attention of the big people. Um but Tonya, in your world, do you find that you're doing some things, like for instance, the impact? Talk to us a bit. You're not building beautiful necklaces. I'm wearing one right now that's very branded to my ThinkRabell story and colors. Um, you don't just build jewelry. And I remember very early on, I told you, I said, right, can you write the story of every single necklace? And you started doing that. And then I said, Well, can you just tell me like where do these come from? And then as you're going through all these processes, you did some things that I've never seen. Like, this is not Etsy. We're talking a movement that you've created. And so talk to us a little bit about how you're doing it differently from the big people, the big companies, but also what you're doing that's very unique.

Karine 30:27

Okay.

Circular Jewelry With Verified Impact

Speaker 3 30:28

Um, so uh, thank you, Orchid. Um so fashion is really the third largest polluter, and for me, that was like, oh my God. Um, I think as women, you know, we are very conscious about future generations and leaving the world in a better spot. And so I was like, you know, how can we reimagine, you know, jewelry so that it is impactful and it is positive for the environment and it is positive for empowers women. That's you know, my two pillars are the empowerment of women, and I think we all share that here, um, and the protection of the planet. And so I I a few things I did very differently, and I'm very shocked that nobody has done it so far, um, is I have the first model in the world at a bead level that with verified carbon and water impact. Um, so these are positive impacts. So we're not trying to be net zero, we're actually being positive. Um, so this was done by a third party. So I said, you know, let's prove it again, going back to data. Um, and so um every necklace has a story, has a name, is unique. And what because I'm not cartoon, because I'm not a big, big brand, um, I can really follow my own values. So yesterday I I put a very political post up on LinkedIn uh because first of all, I can. Secondly, I'm not making any claims. Um, so I'm I'm following the regulations of pharma, but I can I don't need to go through a robust uh six-month uh process and you know, no, attacking sovereignty is not okay. Um eroding diversity and inclusion is not okay. So I have collections that actually say never 51st state because Canada is not up to be grabbed, it's not up for sale. Um, so I I I can do that because I am I'm small and because I I own my own company outright. So I can take these these stands that I don't believe are political, I believe are human rights. Um so I take risks like that, um, but I'm very fine with taking risks. And one thing I learned in pharmaceutical is there's some customers that you want to fire. You don't want to have those customers. So if customers are okay with that, you know, no gender, you know, no no longer having diversity and inclusion or you know, having you know one one woman on their board, well, I don't want them as a customer. Um, you know, so I'm very I'm perfectly fine, you know, firing a whole bunch of customers and going to customers that share my values. So we're a very values-driven brand. And I believe we're we're truly leading um because I basically have a product passport, so full transparency in terms of provenance, in terms of environmental impact, and this will be mandated um, you know, in a few years uh by all governments. Um, but we're there. So if me as a as a solo entrepreneur can do it, then the cartiers of the world um, you know, um they can do it, they can do it. So, you know, so I'm I'm there to prove that if I can do it with minimal resources compared to a cartier, then shame on them. Um and um, you know, I like I'm so discouraged to see that you know, like the circular economy is actually being eroded, you know, it's now 6.9 percent. We're we're consuming at a rate of the world at 1.7. So we're depleting the planet and we have to stop, you know. And um, you know, I love the expression, you know, grandmother's on the roof and the house is on fire. Grandmother is on the roof, and we're all on fire. So um we have to take actions and we can take actions and you know, it's interesting. So no, no, it's a beautiful honestly.

Orchid 34:35

I've never heard you say it this way, but the value part of this is huge. I think that's that is what huge difference, even though both of you can be inside companies, uh large companies, and own your own company. I think when you behave as an entrepreneur, when it's your business, you can you should take stands because people want to know what your stand is. And it's sad when people don't actually, because here's your chance. In pharma, I tried a couple of times, but sometimes the values don't always fit. And there was nothing about ethics. It's always about if the my big thing was with my people, there was always a compliance issue. For sure. We can you cannot do things directly to patients in the way that you would sell sweaters. However, things have changed. I do things very directly with ChatGPT that are helping me with my health care as a patient. So as a patient, you should be using these alternative sources.

Tonya 35:24

Absolutely.

Orchid 35:25

But so you're a better patient. But what I want to say is in the in this world that we're in, this Canada situation, and we should talk to it because that is a crisis, like COVID, that created your business's ideals in a different way. I've heard you speak, you're on the news, you're you've got lots of media talking about why you are doing this. And you know, we always learn this in pharma. Find out what your why is. You know, Simon Sinek’s why TED Talk went viral. I think it's the most watched TED Talk in the world. The first time I watched that, I didn't understand it at all. I remember I was sitting there in a sales training, going, okay, whatever, what's my why? I want to be the best, you know, sales manager in the world, whatever. That is so real when you're out of that world where no one's supporting you and you're like, I'm doing this every hour and I'm not getting paid for it. Why? Because it fits my why and it's gonna help me later. So this is where this happened with the 51st state. We realized we were acting like the 51st state. So even though I'm not a huge fan of the what's going on in the US with the leadership, I am very thankful that we were told we were the 51st state because now we gotta get those, it's more than elbows up, though. There's a lot of policy and things that have happened. But I just want to say you you are a perfect example of someone who used that opportunity not to be uh opportunistic only. You actually are teaching people that you know what, Canada has a role here that no one else does. If I go to the pharma world, I'm really trying really hard, but it's going on deaf ears to a certain extent, Karine. You talked about the sales wraps. I spent 16 years of my life managing salespeople, and I have seen it all good, bad, and not so great. We always play the 2080 rule. 20% of my team was unbelievably special, and 20% should have been fired that I didn't have the guts to fire, and the people in the middle, not sure, depends. We still have a pharma world where we have thousands, forget Canada, your world in the US, thousands of sales reps costing $300,000 a year minimum US dollars. And we do it. We still um the thing that you bought from us, which was a predictive analytic tool, is is a dinosaur now compared to today's availability with Gen AI, right? Today a representative can doesn't even if they're not using those tools, like they should be fired. I'm sorry. But what I'm saying is it's beyond the tool. Now they're being replaced by the tool. And no one wants to talk about the fact that perhaps some of them will be replaced, like AI will replace some people. However, those 20% are still gonna be amazing and they're gonna use these tools the best. My worry is, unlike what Tonya is saying, is why is Cartier not doing it? Why is Big Pharma in your world, where you have 12 people, let's say, running a product and pharma has 120 because they can, why are they sticking with 120 when your margins are even better? If you can at least use some technology to not take away those reps, but make them not have to fly to Saskatchewan for one sales call, I guarantee you the price of your drugs will come down. And this is my big issue with pharma saying the only reason our prices are high, the only reason we can't get this into Canada is because our regulatory doesn't let us do it, because it's expensive to make these products. All of that is correct. But no one's talking about the amount of money we're spending on, I believe, commercialization of these products. That I'm not saying replace it all with bots, but you can really increase your margin, put that money into your patient support program, put that money back in the patients' lives. That is not happening with pharma. I never dared to say this when I was in pharma, and my clients are probably listening, going, Orchid, what are you talking about? No, everything I bring to them is to be more efficient on the operational side so that they can spend that money that they're saving, which is a huge chunk. Let's put it back in the patients. That's because this is exactly what we're in now, right? And so, Tonya, in your world, um, sorry, I had to do my little diatribe there and get it out of my system. But this is one of those things that I didn't

Scaling Through Education And AI

Orchid 39:30

dare to say, and I I am saying it now, but believe me, tech, the investment world, the world that I'm in, they all have their myths and things they don't want to talk about either. Um, is there a way that you could uh scale without uh you actually building your necklaces? I know there that you're looking into the scalability and you're looking at this like a tech AI play, but it's fascinating. And I don't think most people can take themselves from the necklace to the platform. Can you talk us through how you're gonna scale?

Tonya 40:03

Um, excellent question. So I I've really racked my brain as to how to scale, and the reason why I want to scale is for impact. Really, if I can get everybody and if I can get women, because the Trojan horse is woman and jewelry and a necklace or whatever they whatever they want to um uh redesign. Um, the other thing is uh the second impetus is there's over 150,000 years of jewelry in existence, and that's over 500,000 tons. So there's a lot of raw material and fabulous raw material waiting to be redesigned versus mining. So one of the ideas I have in terms of scaling is um enabling people all over the world um with an app with educational videos showing them how they could easily uh redo things in their own, basically in their own uh house. If you think of the two of you, um maybe the first bracelet you made for your mom or first piece of jewelry was made out of um uh pasta, you know, and you know, we we shredded that. And so I'm only focused on semi-precious, I'm not focused on precious because that often we will go and have melted, we will go and have read you know redesigned by jewelers because it's worth so much. But the bulk of the jewelry and very sentimental actually, jewelry, um, sits in the semi-precious, and so that is really it's not making, it's really assembling. And if you can thread a needle, if you can uh you know, you know, put a put uh thread through a pasta, then you can thread uh a pearl. Um, and so it's really that bringing the um the education, the customer education we had in pharma to to the world and enabling that to be available worldwide. Um, and then using AI, actually, right now, this was the perfect time, you're just uploading a picture and asking AI, like, show me some redesign models that I can assemble. So we're talking about assembling, we're not talking about uh you know melting and soldering and and all of that. And so using you know videos, because there's only you know X number of ways you can thread a bead or you know, design a necklace, it's not very if I can do any way you can do it, but it's the creativity. So if you're not creative or if you don't have the idea, have you know AI help you, but also creativity is a muscle. Um, I can't draw, and I am now a certified artist of the Canadian Art Council, so you know, so anybody can become an artist. Um, anybody can become, you know, I I don't qualify myself as a jeweler, I qualify myself as a designer. And so we all have that. And uh honestly, uh uh creating is what's keeping my uh my mental health in these very challenging times. Because when you're creating and doing something beautiful, especially with your hands, you're actually, you know, zeroing out all the noise around you. Um, you know, I can't be thinking of uh, you know, people to the south of us, you know, it's because I'm in I'm in my zone. And that there's, you know, there's nothing more proud than say, I made this, you know. Um think of when you bake something or when you make a meal, and you know, you know, he said, wow, this is really good, Karine. Yes, I made it. And um, so it's just teaching people, you know, basically like if you teach somebody how to fish, I'm just gonna teach them how to redesign. And that's my Trojan horse. Because if I can get you to redesign and rethink and reimagine things. repair, repurpose, then you're gonna start thinking of everything with a different lens. And because right now we're looking at things with a very narrow lens. And then you know maybe you know you won't throw away you know that jeans with the hole. Maybe you'll repair it. Maybe you won't, you know, and right now I think it was in um oh there's one of the Nordic countries that there's some shopping malls that nothing is new. Everything is going to be there in a second. n Yes. And so this is where I want to shift and and if I can just start shifting too much I'm hearing a little T oh sorry if I can start shifting people's um focus and attention and changing behavior and that's what I really want is to change behavior worldwide. Then I will bend the curve on environment and that

Sustainability, Empathy, And Patient Access

Tonya 45:02

is my goal.

Karine 45:02

Or chid can I just jump like I find what Tonya is saying is is so inspiring. And it made me think about like one of the questions you asked earlier about you know how how do we lead through this? How can we change into a very you know established model. And I think what Tonya was saying is there is an established model. We don't even as women think ask ourselves questions I'm just buying this new thing because I find it's great. I want to express myself with it uh it's part of me but we don't think about the cost of the cost and not money. I'm not only talking about money I'm talking about environmental cost and all the different uh so and really I think there's a parallel in what I'm doing in pharma and it may just you make me realize like Tonya like oh wow I mean this is this is what I think also links us is I think as women right and and I will say it um at at the um at the risk of being uh you know some people not being uh agreeing on me with me on this but I think as women we are we lead with with with uh empathy with ethics but with also with responsibility not to say that men are not responsible that's what that's not what I'm saying but we are the mothers of the hurt right and I think that when we we do what we do our why is we need to make this ethical we need to make this sustainable we need to take care of the resources we also need to make sure continuity of care is there and I'm thinking about my own experience when I was working in brand pharma world which is amazing because we discover so many great uh innovations right but there's a lot of money being spent there's a lot of resources being spent and um this is creating a cost to a point where not everybody can access the drugs to a point where some countries cannot access it to a point where when they do access it here um not everybody can because the government will say well this is the list of paperwork that you need to fill out to be able to be eligible. So some patients are going with side effects uh I'm thinking about my own mother and this is my why okay my my mother has um enclosing a spondylitis and she's been suffering since she was like 20 years old and she was on so many medications that was not helping her allergic to NSAIDs and this and that and at some point she was introduced to infliximab which was the Remica super expensive uh very uh you know very effective and um you know we know how much the company that made it like invested into this and the government at was at a point where and this is one example among any others I also worked in oncology it was the same thing expensive treatments creating a difference in the life of patients but that the the the governments were telling us I love your product but we cannot afford it and then the company started to say well we'll take care of it we'll create a parallel healthcare system which is the patient support programs will we'll help you and that was great for patients right um but then um there's a point where we wanted to bring more medications and the government had no money we cannot create money right to pay for it. So this is why like bringing off patent medications to the patients could help the government and but and I'm talking about Canada but it's it's like that everywhere but Canada was great at the first it's the only country by the way that has a biosimilar transition policy where once a biosimilar gets to the market they delist the brand and they favor the biosimilars but we needed to do something and my why was always my mother my poor mother that was on her Remicaid and saying I need to continue to have those services I need to continue to have like you cannot just have an interchangeability at any pharmacy and just like uh so my purpose was continuity of care. Like it's all about sustainability and continuity of care. So discussing with the government saying okay you cannot expect this and this and this service but this is really what matters for the patient. Right? So I think that I don't know if if women are a little bit more worried about about or maybe not maybe I'm totally off guard but I think this is a style that we have we are protectors we want we want sustainability and um I think that this is part of our values that in the way we lead or at least uh maybe that's what uh connects us uh Tonya and I but uh that's definitely I see a parallel into this and if we can create a change that's the entrepreneurial portion within a huge company right but we can make a change.

Orchid 50:07

We can make it I mean just well you two both have daughters I know I have a son and I'm actually shocked because Cameron is he's definitely into all the the coolest the latest his hockey stick costs 800 bucks like all this crazy stuff. However the thing that I'm really finding fascinating and this is not for sustainability because he's only 15 or maybe he's I I shouldn't say that. Maybe it is but the latest trend I've seen is they go down to thrift stores like the one you took me to in Vermont or remember that one Tonya and they go buy whatever and they go into these bins and they find really cool things and then he'll go like change it up a little bit and then sell it because he's making money. But I don't care that he's making money because he is really completely sustainable, right? And so I'm like I it's a little business he's got on the side and it goes back to like our kids are doing things that are teaching us like you know this whole thing about you know there are easier ways of doing some of the things

Parenting, Risk, And Letting Kids Fail

Orchid 51:01

that we used to do. So I wanted to throw that back to are there things that you're and this is not something you prepare for I know but think about what your daughters or I I guess in your in your case son as well Tonya in this particular topic is there something we can do to be more role models for them? Are we supporting this behavior? Because I am seeing you know there's a whole social media stuff that they get involved in but it's because of the social media it's because of TikTok that they're able to do these things virally so I also see the benefit of how they're learning things quickly.

Tonya 51:33

What do you think if if I came to you as your daughter and said mom like um this is really cool should I go with it what are your thoughts about how we're uh recommending different paths or or should we even do that with our own uh kids so that they can be more sustainable so they can be more entrepreneurial well I'm trying to lead by example um you know they my kids have seen me do all kinds of things um and you know from uh you know being in pharma to running the Special Olympics to you know uh running corporate ads huge international ads and so I think it's it's um you know telling them that they can be anything and they can do anything and showcasing them that and also I think very importantly it's um uh not being afraid of failure so um and I I think I protected my two older children from that Gabriela and letting her trip trip get up trip get up and so that's I've learned that that you know we need to build more resilience in our children um or I believe that um because top performers aren't you know aren't used to failing and if they fail that's that could be devastating to them to their mental health so taking risks um taking small risk and trying often failing often failing cheap um you know and that's what I would have encouraged you know back in pharma is that just try anything as long as you know it doesn't have huge impact time wise or financially um or reputation um just try just try try try and I I love the uh the expression um don't be afraid of failure but be terrified of regret and um so you know I'm letting our kids try all kinds of things um but letting our youngest fail.

Orchid 53:34

I've talked to you you're saying all the right things Tonya but I know deep down inside you and I have talked about this we want to direct more than let them fail. I think that is a really tough one.

Tonya 53:44

Well I'm letting them I'm letting them trip and but I'm uh but no no and and I am I mean like like I I just told you my uh my book club on Monday is let them and you know I I have I have learned to sit on my hands you know and just but I'm there to catch them and I'm there giving them permission. And I think yes yes and and um but you know my husband's always let me try anything you know you want to launch a company try you know you want to do this but you know I'm cautious as to how much money I'm investing uh or spending because um this for everybody out there uh the first couple of years you're you're bootstrapping so uh you don't have that that's the the big risk of having your own company is that you don't have a uh biweekly or bi-monthly paycheck and uh um so but no so uh be more I think as women to exactly to your point Karine you know we're much more compassionate we maybe connect connect various dots we um right empathetic but I think we are risk averse and and we wait too often before applying for the job and so now I'm all about empowering women say try try go ahead you know wear that hat try that um I I know it it's taken me until I'm you know

Orchid 55:13

yeah so this is kind of accelerated our kids so Karine I have to ask you because um I know what you're thinking you your daughter is incredibly uh talented precocious probably sees everything you're doing the first time I met you I have this memory I can't remember what it was but you went against the grain in a room where everyone went wow she's brave you have not been someone who's like not going to take that step like so this whole thing about be brave move forward do you think that it is a quality that just is in your DNA or can you teach it to people? Like your daughter like when she comes to you and says Mom I uh I don't know I want to try something do these things pass along as parenthood or are you different as a mother? Because I know for me I talk a lot of stuff but I don't actually do it with my kid the way I should but we have

Karine 55:59

if you want to do a separate one only on this and how do we pass on drive and courage and um and performance to our kids then uh I can definitely be uh be be there to talk with you but I have to say that as much as I as I I would describe myself now as a very courageous uh trying to find new things or really going against the current and being um noticed and being disruptive um I was always in deeply inside like someone that really wanted to succeed so I was very very often directed by fear right fear anxiety makes you perform right and uh you do everything you can to to make it right or you put yourself uh challenges and and and sometimes it just puts you away from really doing what you love or what you're good at or what is your calling and um and it could be super stressful also because it puts you pressure so my daughter is totally as much as I wanted to be a role model I think a role model what she doesn't really want to do in life she uh she sees the amount of hours um you know mental charge uh that that everything like it's a choice it's a choice I've made I enjoy doing what I do but I never really put pressure on her I wanted her to be happy right so for me I think what I really want to tell her if I had to re you know do my life again like not that I'm I cannot do it I can still do it but it's all about injecting confidence and get injecting her in her the confidence of going off trail because this is not something that I've done off trail is that what you said off trail off trail right so so she she does maybe doesn't even need to go with uh the university degree right is it really needed I don't know uh she doesn't really like school so I'm like okay got a lot of anxiety over this you know sleepless nights over this but you know maybe she doesn't need to be a follower to 60 maybe she has her own path and just trusting that they can do it and doing what they love and very often for entrepreneurs that is the key to the success is doing something that you love that you're passionate about exactly to uh to Tonya's point. So so this is I I guess um you know relating to the topic we're talking about it's all about like just just take the risk a calculated risk and a risk that is reversible also right so you all so Tonya I feel like you want to add something.

Orchid 58:50

Tonya go ahead I didn't think we were going to talk about parenthood but it's no but

Tonya 58:56

no but I just want to I just want to uh reinforce Karine's point is that uh especially now especially with AI and all that um the jobs that won't be replaced are the plumbers and the electricians and the construction so you know um a a a degree is not a guarantee of a job um I wish that you know my son you know maybe didn't get a degree and did did more technical skills so I think as a society we also have to change you know our perspective and you know what are the best jobs and what are this. Again to Karine's point um my kids saw me working like crazy my husband and I and so one child is like and that's not for me. But I there's one thing I want to add and it's something I have been very guilty of and I think we um maybe other people are as well is that we're worried what people will think. And it's not forget what people will think. Just do what you want to do. You will succeed you will create your own path and you will prove everybody wrong. Because for me shifting from you know senior exec and pharma to you know jewelry designer you know it's like oh my god what will people think and you know what lots of people are envious and they say oh my god we would love to be doing what you're doing it's very cool what you're doing we love it we're watching it you're killing it and and so it's just like forget what people think as well and just let them um so yeah I would I would I would I would change my parenting uh

Orchid 1:00:35

to Karine yeah magic wand that's why I feel like if you had a magic wand I'm gonna just rephrase it a little bit Karine is saying uh I would um probably be um more accepting of what my daughter really wants to be in life and not maybe impose my amazing self on her . you are amazing it's just that she's amazing in a different way and you're gonna see that more and this is actually very therapeutic for me because I'm going through that process right now with my son. And then Tonya you're saying the same thing but you're also saying um you know be true to like just be like trust her trust her opinion you know she's she's someone or he's someone that knows what they're doing. Just on that point I you know I have this discussion with my husband a lot in terms of is it better to be a generalist or a specialist? I think I've definitely obviously on the generalist side I don't have a science degree I survived in you know pharma for 30 years. But this is a new concept and we are brought up in my culture that's not cool. You know you're not an engineer you're not a doctor you're not what's wrong with you and so that world is changing. So everything we're talking about now is so applicable to that next generation especially when it comes to education and so on. I feel like we've covered a lot of different ground we could talk for hours I wanted to say thank you because for me honestly like I've seen you many times I've been with you many times these journeys that I've spent with you I realize now were just like little parts of your life and I miss the other big parts and with Tonya it's more the other way like I didn't know the old stuff which it's amazing how it ties in.

Guilty Pleasures And Closing Thoughts

Orchid 1:02:04

I'm gonna ask you a fun question now. So right now this moment again going back to my magic wand what is that guilty pleasure that would surprise people about you other than being in St. Martin's um you know sailing around the world Kevin I'm very jealous that's what she's gonna be doing soon. But what is that guilty pleasure you have that keeps you you know the way you are fun

Tonya 1:02:32

so uh I'll go maybe um I was fortunate to live in 11 countries and so uh since the young age I have the travel bug so uh um you know I work to travel basically I just and the most more exotic the better um you know whether it's hiking with the gorillas in Uganda or you know my um I just I just love that so uh hopefully I'll be able to take most countries off my bucket list um but I'm up up to about a hundred so I'm pretty happy so that's my guilty guilty pleasure and then when I'm there guess what I'm doing yeah I'm collecting beads so so it's been I have a 45 uh year collection of antique books

Orchid 1:03:17

I'm glad that uh you can write some of this off because it is an expensive guilty pleasure if you just travel good stuff love it and Karine and what would you be doing um I guess what is your guilty pleasure that you don't tell everyone about that you're gonna tell everyone about

Karine 1:03:34

well I I mean it may not be so guilty but it's uh something that really uh brings me back to the basics it's it's funny because uh I've been reflecting a lot late recently about you know the second chapters uh what do I want to do you know when I slow down a little bit what do I want to do when I retire what do I want to do of course I don't want to do anything right because uh I'm an interactive person so I need to uh to do something got to move but um you mentioned sailing this is my therapy this is definitely uh water has an impact on us that I would never have um um expected right uh I don't know it's because if we're constituted of the majority of water our ourselves uh the moon the water the vast uh places is uh is is really good as much as I'm an extrovert I'm also sometimes antisocial and I need to be somewhere where nobody can reach me and that is a guilty pleasure for me uh so um yeah it's just resourcing myself and also being self-sufficient on on a boat uh is something that I really uh enjoy doing um is uh going back to the simple things and then being disconnected from life makes you rethink about what the essential things are.

Orchid 1:04:57

Yeah on a sailboat is great. I I used to sail a lot I totally miss it you reminded me there's one connection here to what uh Tonya said earlier in terms of being in Zen when you're making those beats happen into a beautiful piece of art. It's scary but I for me one of those things I just discovered could be Lego. My my husband and my son bought this beautiful Lego has a beautiful new collection of flowers and plants. Yes marketing bring these women in and like I never I'm not making cars anymore. So anyways I made this beautiful orchid thing and it was like I need to do more of the Zen stuff and it's the same with sailing when you're there and the winds you know you you gotta focus on the wind otherwise you're gonna sink and so you can't think about you know your plan of action at work at that time like it just forces you. So let's find those end moments. So many I mean we're going over time but I just want to say we covered so much and more for me it was really great because we covered the intra and entrepreneurship risk taking innovation scarcity resilience. So what's been amazing In this conversation is that we've covered so much ground. We talked about entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship. We talked about risk-taking, um, innovative innovative uh behaviors that help us, you know, get there. We didn't focus so much on the women versus men, which is really fascinating, but there are some differences that came through. Um, we talked about parenting and scarcity. So um just wanted to say thank you. I've learned so much. Um, all the Zen moments that you talk about that we don't do enough of, I'm definitely gonna do more of. And until next time, um, you know, next time when we see each other in person, I just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I learned so much today. Thank you, Orchid Thank you.

Speaker 1:06:37

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Speaker 1 1:06:56

Think rTalk, step in, find your groove.

Disclaimer

Speaker 1 1:06:59

I’m Karine Matteau. I'm participating in this conversation in my personal capacity. Any views expressed are my own and do not represent the views of my employer.