Bold Global Pharma Leaders Betting on Canada

In this conversation with Susanna Howard and Miriam Lavoie we get a candid look at what happens when seasoned global pharma leaders choose Canada and decide their ambition doesn’t have to shrink with a change of address. These trailblazers talk candidly about leaving global pharma hubs to build meaningful careers and impact in Canada’s life sciences and health innovation scene. They unpack what remote leadership, growth mindset, and community support look like when trying to make an impact, without losing your ambition.

These 2 recently moved to Canada for personal reasons, while keeping global influence. Using a growth mindset and curiosity they continue to navigate career pivots, networks across countries and pay it forward.

We talk about the real drivers behind relocation and reinvention: family, identity, and the quiet confidence that you can lead globally from anywhere, even outside traditional hub cities. Susannah shares what she learned running global commercial excellence and what surprised her most about Canada’s healthcare system, including the urgent access-to-primary-care gap that makes virtual clinics and telemedicine feel less like buzzwords and more like necessities. Miriam connects the dots across drug development, launches, and market realities, arguing that patient access and payer realities need to shape innovation early, not as an afterthought.

We also zoom out to the bigger opportunities that can shape the Canadian life sciences ecosystem: human diversity for better clinical trials, closing the “boldness gap” that can hold back world-class talent. 

If you’re building a career in biopharma, biotech, digital health, or AI in healthcare, you’ll leave this podcast with a clearer sense for building in Canada with a global mindset.

Subscribe, share this with someone weighing a big career move, and leave a review with the boldest bet you think Canada should make next.

ThinkrTalk celebrates Life Science Innovators, Doers and Dreamers reshaping healthcare — one bold step at a time. 

Follow the ThinkrBelle page for future podcasts! Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs a spark, and please leave a quick review to tell us what you think.

Until next time, Keep TRAILBLAZING!

This episode of ThinkrTalk was hosted by Orchid Jahanshahi and Produced by Marc Kostoff of The Basement Studios.

Transcript

Opening And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Where the land meets the ledger and the data drives the deal. Farma minds and biotech hearts go do what we need. Digital health disruptors, rewriting how we heal.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Welcome back to Thinker Talk, where we sit with the people who are reshaping healthcare, biopharma, tech, and the way we live. Today's guests are the definition of risk-taking and resilient trailblazers. These two incredible women leaders have recently moved to Canada. And one of them has moved back to Canada, to Montreal. And frankly, they've moved beyond their careers in pharma and stepped boldly into these new areas in healthcare and are now playing a new role in shaping the life science ecosystem that we're building here in Canada. This episode is very personal to me. As someone who's had various roles in pharma for many years in both Canada and global, I took a plunge into the digital and health tech fields back in 2020. I know how hard it is to do that in the middle of your career. And I also feel this excitement of entrepreneurship every day and wonder why I didn't do it earlier. I've always been drawn to this know-how and experience, uh expertise, I should say, of Canadian talent in both pharma and tech. And uh I actually, you know, I've been around so long that I remember back when the giant pharma company Merck had RD RD manufacturing in Montreal before even globalization happened, where our life science industry really forced them to shut down and bring these early stage science talent back to our head offices in Boston or Switzerland or San Francisco. Canada did have and still does have a really viable life science community. We're facing a new reality today, and we no longer want to act like the 51st state. We're getting uh our mojo back in the healthcare industry. And um, wherever we live, whether it's here or we move abroad, we have some of the most talented people in this industry. In fact, most of the global pharma companies today have many executives at senior level from Canada. And some of these people are moving back to Canada. So let me introduce uh two of these women to you. Um my friends and uh co-workers, Susanna and Miriam. They're two leaders who are really living that vision. After more than 20 years in global pharma, um, leading multiple launches, shaping omnichannel strategy across international markets, Susannah Howard made the move from the UK to Canada just seven months ago. Now at Thinkerbell, she continues to work on a global stage while championing our role, our Canada role in the future of health innovation. We're also joined by Miriam Lavoie, the powerhouse senior advisor at Thinkerbell. She spent her career bridging the gap between global strategy in biotech hubs like Boston and Switzerland and locally executing things in Canada and France. And she's now bringing that world-class experience home to Montreal to accelerate Canada's life science innovation. In fact, uh, a fun fact is that um both myself and Miriam worked in the same company. We didn't know each other during that company, and I'll let her tell you the story of how else we're linked because of that. Um, so let's get into it.

Choosing Canada Mid-Career

SPEAKER_01 3:25

So um I'm gonna start with um with Susannah. Susanna, um, you had a global role, you had lots of influence, you managed many different markets. What made you step away from all that to come back to Canada?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So I am British, you can tell from my voice. Um, so this is so I have lived in in in a number of different countries, but I've uh never lived in Canada before. But my husband is is Canadian from Ottawa. So this is uh I've arrived in Canada seven months ago. You're right. I I was in uh global headquarters, it was my home office. Um, so I had that visibility. Um, I had that kind of influence you mentioned as well. Um, I I had my networks, I had my career trajectory and so on. Um the the choice to come to Canada was very much a personal one rather than a professional one, in the sense that my husband is from here and and and family for him as well, for both of us is really important. Um, and we wanted to be closer to them. But also with that, I have been working in a global role largely remotely for a number of years, and I realize that you can be a leader remotely, right? You can travel around and and you don't need to be, you can, you can, there's an advantage to being in the global hub, but it's not a prerequisite. It's absolutely it should be, not every company, I guess, acknowledges it equally, but it should be absolutely possible to have a global impact from anywhere. Um, and uh so we moved to Ottawa, just to be clear, rather than Toronto, um, which is not uh one of the global hub cities, particularly not for pharmaceuticals. Um, but so so yeah, we've had to make the bet that you know we can still have an impact from here. Uh, this is where we want to be. Um, for reasons I'll share, I'm excited to be in Canada and the opportunity that that being Canada brings. But uh yeah, I think the ambition doesn't shrink or change. It's it's really just trying to move that to a new location.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I love what you're saying. Personally, I left Pharma. One of the big reasons I left Pharma was my inability to move again. My husband being a lawyer, I could not move to Switzerland or the US or even out of the province, actually. And it completely limited my career within Pharma. And I don't see that happening anymore. So there's one of the side effects of uh of COVID that happened, really. So I totally get that in terms of, you know, now we have people sitting in different parts of the world running different countries, and it it actually works, right? Um, before I go further, I just wanted you to tell us a little bit more about what you were doing because in my intro it was very general. So tell us about what you were doing right before you came.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

You were living in London, uh, companies based out of maybe just out of Cambridge, yeah, which is very close to us, like an hour's drive from where I lived in London. Um, so I've been at the same company for over a decade. Um before that, I was at Amgen, then at Money Farmer. Um, my global role was the most recent one. Well, I I've been doing some project work since I've been here, but if I can go back my global role out of the UK, um, it was I was responsible for I guess the role you'll recognize is global commercial excellence, making sure that we have the right capabilities to um implement our strategies globally. So that was uh yeah, involved really rolling my sleeves up and um getting involved with the field forces in the different countries as well as bringing in kind of innovation and and um in and working with the global brand teams on their approaches. So it's it's it was very much, I suppose, uh, in a way, kind of like an internal consultant working across all brands, working across all markets. Um, but yeah, obviously working to some quite tight KPIs as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Cool. So I'll go to um to Miriam.

Global Commercial Work From Ottawa

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I'll ask, I guess, the same question. Um, why? Why did you come back? I mean, you had this incredible life in Montreal, and then maybe just walk us through what you did and you know, you moved more than once, and why back in Montreal?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah, and we're happy to. And it's really a personal reflection that led to a professional decision. Um, it's as I spent almost 13 years uh outside of Canada working in roles of increasing responsibility in the biotech, uh, mostly global roles, but also like on the strategic level in commercialization and operation in terms of pulling through the strategy at the market level in France and um also um in Canada. I had the opportunity to work in development and I've seen the full spectrum of drug development. And being away, and Susanna, now you'll probably uh feel that more as you live now in Canada. Being away from home, there are things we miss on the personal front. So I miss the family aspect of things and the long-term friends. And while it's been a wonderful journey and growth opportunity and also adventure uh sometimes to work abroad, deep down the values and the core of who we are just that kind of came back to life for me in a different way than it had in the past. And it's not a single event that created this. I think it was um happening over time and reflecting and seeing my parents getting older. My sister decided to move back after living abroad as well, and she moved back with her family. She has uh two young teenagers, my nieces, which I adore. And and I felt that I was at this point in my career that I could bring so much to the Canadian market, but I had to find what that looks like. And it took some time for me to reflect as to what can my experience so far and knowledge that I've built over the years, how can that translate into something meaningful in the Canadian environment? Because the roles look different than what we have in global hubs like uh like Cambridge and Boston, uh, Massachusetts, or in the US, or in Switzerland as well, and some other pockets of the world. So it's my long way of saying that it was both a personal uh reflection and acknowledging my deep desire to get back home and looking for how can I continue to bring value and have an impact and be intentional about those decisions moving forward. So, and it's a reflection that took time over the past year, really, um, where I read multiple books about designing your life and reflecting on what ignites the fire in me, what has ignited it until today, and what's gonna keep it alive. So for me, now is it's a commitment to give back, give back to the country that I was born into, that I associate my values being um most aligned to, and enriching it from that experience that I gain internationally. And I also think that we're at the and we can expand on this later on in in the podcast arcade, but I think we're at the pivotal point in Canada on the biotech side of things where um we have an opportunity to change the trajectory in biotech in Canada. And I want to be part of that, I want to enable it. So it's a combination of trusting instinct and making those commitments.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

But trusting yourself is a big part of that. Like both of you talk a lot about your yes, it was a definitely a cognitive decision, you know, whether it's your husband, Susanna, that really wanted to go back. And but there are a lot of people who go as expats, as couples, where one partner says, let's go, the other one's like, No, I don't want to go. And it's rare that um that happens. And it's I think uh, you know, you from what I understand, you left a very serious job with that risk, right? And you know, I just want to point out you have two boys, uh, you know, they have costs, you know, it's not like you can just go to the other side of the world and and you know, hang out and and have fun and go skiing. Um, neither one of you is that kind of a person. You didn't do this because you want to retire or relax your brains. You're actually here to learn new things. You you're you have so much in common. And I know this more than you do because I've known both of you longer than you've known each other, to say there are a lot of similarities between you, and and I've been thinking about this because not many people do what you two do. And for us at Thinkerbell to have um, you know, it's it's an overrepresentation of what people do. And I think there's something to be said about the way we want to be as Thinkerbell, which is really as diverse as possible in the way of our thinking, even though we're very focused on healthcare, very focused on pharma, even sometimes focused on you know dermatology. We have this thread of diversity among us, except the male-female thing, but we are changing that with our new thinker pros. Just to say that yes, it started off being more female. But aside from that, um what you're describing right now is really important because you mentioned culture, like the thoughtful way that you would go about something like that. Um, some people go at it very serendipity as well. Like I would probably read less books and throw myself at those things. But in both both of those are okay. I think what we have this ability, um, I think in our team to um tolerate some of that difficulty of not knowing, unknown. And I think maybe it's also why I love the world of AI, because there's absolutely nothing known about the tomorrow part of AI. So I'm okay with that. But I would say in pharma, people are not so okay with not knowing what that is. So in your situation, Miriam, you didn't just go to Boston. Um, you went to France. And you also, the other big thing that you did that's dramatic, I think, is to go from a very large company to a biotech world. You, you know, going from a commercial person to really early stage and looking at development of drugs and things that, again, as I mentioned earlier, sadly don't happen in Canada anymore as much with big pharma. You know, we had again, Mark was massive when we built RD here, but that doesn't happen outside of one or two companies here. So your exposure to those things big, but were you not worried at one point that it would just be overwhelming? Like I guess what I'm saying is how did you deal with all of those changes? Like just going to France. Yes, you speak French, but France is different from Quebec, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah, well, it goes back to the fact that I have a growth mindset. And through since I was very little, I always curious to learn, improve, discover something, a new angle, a new perspective. So that translated into my career in having a trajectory that I had not even dreamed was even possible, by keeping an open mind, uh getting the feedback, uh, integrating the feedback that made sense uh intentionally in terms of what I wanted to um change, if I thought that was relevant, and at least being self-aware. So those choices were made looking at where are the uh current strength that I have and how do those apply. And at the same time, being willing to get outside of my comfort zone to live a new experience and grow through it. And none of these steps for me were definite, they were a path forward, a step at a time. And I was gonna figure it out, I was gonna make connections, and because I believe we are not uh self-made totally, there's always a helping hand or someone willing to guide us, and sometimes there's a bit of luck as well, and all of that is part of who we become. So sometimes the timing is important. Yeah, sometimes the timing makes it harder, but you learn through that, and then you can apply it later on, or at least that's been my experience. So when I had the opportunity to go to France, it actually was not presented to me as a longer, long-term opportunity. It was more to go and help because there was a situation that needed to be resolved as we were preparing a very important launch. And I had been involved in um designing the go-to-market for that launch globally, and they needed to put it in place in France, and there was a situation with the change of leader that uh they needed me to come in and help out. And that three-month assignment turned into a full year, and after that full year, I had a decision to make do I relocate fully with my husband, or um, what do we do? And that's to the point where there those decisions are not done in silo, they're done with the spouse or family, children, and the impact it has on them. For us, it was better that we don't relocate. So I discussed that openly with the leadership at Biogen at the time. And there was an opportunity to complete that launch experience in Canada. So they sent me back to Canada for a couple of years to see it through. And for me, that was important to see it through because there were learnings that I wanted to capture from having done the global strategy, designing the regional um go-to-market model, seeing it in Europe, and then pulling it through with the learnings for the Canadian market was both an act of curiosity, but also of wanting to see it through so that what we had set ourselves to do could actually provide the results we were um that were meant to happen. And this wasn't rare disease, which um ignites more energy and desire to remove roadblocks for patients and families, I find that uh sometimes other areas feel the need is not as strong. So um, yeah, it's a long way of answering your question.

Mentors, Networks, And Culture Shifts

SPEAKER_02 19:06

You know, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

But I I love the one thing we don't talk a lot about that we should is the culture. You know, there's a culture in a company, and then within these companies, that the countries all have their own cultures. And even within Canada, you know, Western Canada sales reps are different from Quebec sales reps, like I've definitely experienced that. And you just reminded me of this really interesting story that you and I put together after you started working with me, which I think is fascinating. And this is a if anyone doesn't believe in networking and things like that, they need to listen to the story because you know, things always fall together. So back in, I don't want to say how many years, but let's say 20 years ago, I was at uh the Boston office at Biogen. I don't think you were at Biogen at that time, but uh so I worked uh in the global team and uh we were asked to, we had only one product, and we were launching the second MS product, and uh it became a very like a very tumultuous time because that second product hit the market with a really massive safety issue, which again shows you how hard it is to build products that come to market even at phase three and four, you can have issues. And so that just took the whole company by storm and it really changed. But one of the things that happened to me was I suddenly got more of a budget in my global role because the second product, the new one, um wasn't as it was important, but we needed to keep the lights on, kind of thing. And so I suddenly got a lot of interest in this older product, and I started working with all the big uh started really focusing on the big markets. And of course, the big market is not Canada. So coming from Canada, I definitely felt like the 51st state. You know, people would say things to me like, yeah, you're great, but you know, here it's different always. And in French, it would be in France it would be papoisid to everything. And so I'm exaggerating, of course. But um, I know my friend Frederick is listening to this right now and he'll laugh. But um, so then I decided since France was our biggest market at literally, like I think maybe 40% of the sales or something like this, and we could not, little orchid from Canada could not convince the French folks to do something different and me, you know, from what they thought. I actually went and brought someone from France into that organization, and his name is Frederick Nicole, and um, it was really amazing because um there was no more papa cible, it was all like papa cible the other way, and uh it was it really changed everything just to have someone from France in our group. And this is an example that you know can you can expand to a lot of things. We don't have as much of that situation in Canada because we are already very diverse, and I think in Boston there's a ton of diversity as well, but just to have that representation made a big difference. Fast forward uh after you you um decided to hang out with us at Thinkerbell, tell us about the lunch that you had when you went back to Boston to hang out with your friend.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Yeah, so I know Frederick from a long time ago when I was working in the Canadian Affairs. Affiliate uh in Toronto. And Frederick was in Global, thankfully, because Orchid brought him there. And we he, I guess uh things uh come back in that uh he gave it forward the opportunity to go into global. He recognized that I was thirsty to learn and quite engaged and looking for uh how else can I contribute? And he guided me towards potential global roles, encouraging me to have trust in my ability and that what I was doing in Canada, most of it was applicable elsewhere internationally. So I was he opened my mind to the international career that could be possible and um made it easy for me to join the global team. And that's how I uh after applying for a role, um, I had the confidence to make the right arguments, and they took me and looked at my profile, and the rest is history, and we've stayed uh really good friends um over the years or built friendship, I should say, over the years. You went to Boston.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

This is like how many, maybe 10 or 15 years after.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

I have 13 years. So he he was at that. Um he was an enabler uh or catalyst for me to make the jump into the global international scene 13 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Um I think the important thing for me there is I know Frederick was coming with his partner at that time, and he and Olivier are married now, of course, and all that. And he always says to me, Orchid, if it weren't for you, I wouldn't have my green card and all this. And we're always chatting like that in a funny way, and then you guys go have lunch, and I'm like, wait a second, he just did this for Miriam. So it's like this whole fast forward thing, and there's something there, and I think we just have to keep close to all of our contacts because I think in pharma, no matter how global it gets and how massive it is, these people in the same areas at least they get to hang out a lot, and so from there you jumped into the biotech world, which is a completely different, different story. Um, but there must have been some moments where you were like fish out of water feel. And I want to go back to Susanna. Like you start, you came here late summer, I can't remember, seven months ago. So it wasn't old entry. And everything that I say, every time I say to Susannah, oh my god, the snow, blah, blah, blah. She's like, we love it, we go skiing. She has completely taken the positive side of everything that I find difficult in the winter. Maybe it's because I'm in Toronto and there are no mountains. But um, yeah, I you're just so positive about everything. Is there anything where you wake up when you wake up one morning? I actually I'm gonna ask you about this. You came to Toronto and you went, oh, you only have two subway lines? That was I think the only thing you said. But is there anything that bugs you that you miss? What do you just sort of totally immerse yourself into the new world?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, um, of course. I mean, there's there's things. I mean, uh UK is my home. I've lived in many countries, but I've always ended up going back to the UK. It's always been for a period of time, like uh Miriam's uh you in France. Um this is a full move, you know, and for the first move that we've done where we've brought where we have children and we've brought everybody with us and the dog as well. Um I think, yeah, if I'm thinking about well, actually, the something that shocked me was the access, the lack of access to primary care, uh healthcare. I think that's something that I was not expecting, and that I think is is pretty bad. I do see the opportunity. I you're absolutely right, Orchid. I can't help but but but be positive. So I do see that um, yeah, if we're thinking about what's exciting about Canada, that creates a bit of a vacuum. We've been talking a lot about virtual clinics, tele telemedicine. You know, this that this is a perfect place to innovate uh to solve that that big problem, essentially. Um, but that's one thing that um that did shock me. I guess um, yeah, I did find I have found sometimes that um the Canadian that some people that I've spoken to in Canada feel that Canada is completely different to other markets. I think that's probably quite in the universal, but um but so I was surprised that, and again, this is just from my personal observations that the the analogues across the world with Canada and maybe not recognized could be recognized a bit more. I think it sounds like your, you, Miriam, your what you were doing in Canada was recognized and taken elsewhere. I think more there could be more of that because you know, Europe is kind of like, although it's not fed the federal-provincial kind of divide and the complexities, you know, there are a lot of analogues between France with France, other countries in Europe with the Canadian system. And I think there could be more learning both ways between Canada and other markets. So I was a little surprised with the feeling that Canada was that the I've personally observed that Canada's different and you have to have experience with the Canadian system, or you don't get the Canadian system. So that's one thing that I was a little surprised. I guess on the flip side, you've asked me what I miss in in from the UK. Infound or you know, something pleasurable related. Public trial. You know what? I really genuinely, really like it here. It's a bit boring. I do she's not making it up. I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

And you are an eternal optimist, which is unbelievably amazing.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

But yeah, one thing I've noticed that has also struck me is that I've observed is that um the leadership of women is is much more natural. It comes across in my observations much more natural here than in my experience in multiple European countries. That that women in senior leadership are listened to, the authorities much more natural. That although, of course, it's things aren't perfect. I feel that Canada is ahead in that. And that again feeds into the innovation and the cognitive diversity, and you know, it's a really great kind of element of your cult of the Canadian culture, which is strong there.

Women’s Leadership And Canadian Progress

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, Miriam, did you feel that going as a woman going to those three countries and being in those definitely echo that uh Canada feels more progressive in terms of the opportunities women have, and I would say that Quebec even more so and that uh this even in relationship with men, it feels more equal than what I've observed in many other countries, including the US and France. Um, yeah, and I I think my theory is that this is linked to Canadians' embrace of multiculturism and accepting differences, and we made choice and tried to bring a certain level of um life um quality of life that is accessible across the country, it's not perfect, but there's at least the desire to, as a progress country, to make sure everybody's able to eat and have access to care. Mind you, it's not perfect. And I'm in the final stage of relocating back to Montreal, and part of me dreads navigating the element of the healthcare, but my sister reassured me that she was able to find a path. So I have trust there. The going back to when you make a choice of relocating or going somewhere, I think it's natural to be to tend to be more optimistic and to look at what may appear as barriers as something we need to navigate through and we take them one step at a time. So I don't know if it's the honeymoon feel, but there's an element of it's a choice. So we're gonna make it work. It's an adventure for sure.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Yeah, it's an adventure.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

It's the adventure we chose, and that changes the mindset totally as to and take perhaps and going back to the observations you made, Susanna, of Canadians in our industry that have only worked in Canada, tending to see that a Canadian affiliate, for example, is very different than the others. I think that stems from not having seen other markets. And more and more, as these affiliates are having to present the opportunities in different lights to global um headquarters and work more collaboratively with regional groups. I'm hoping that they do see there's many of many of the things are common and where it differs, it's easy. Those things can then be navigated and adjusted as opposed to making it sound like everything is uh unique. But there are unique things that can be leveraged with like every market as its own um unique elements, but I would say that's probably like the 20%. Um I agree.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

And and you have got a great platform here to do what you did, which is do something great in Canada, which is then can then be scaled to across other markets. Which is definitely so.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I think the timing, I mean, I don't want to go into there's a whole podcast that we could do on the geopolitical reasons why people are moving to Canada. You know, I have uh I know Americans who've never lived in Canada who are moving to Canada, and these are they they're coming in fully knowing they're gonna pay more taxes and so on. So there's so there's a value thing there. But I think for us uh Canadians, it there's this massive opportunity I see because of the tension we have with the US to get out of our own heads and realize exactly what Susanna is saying. We are not these like little unicorns of opportunity here that nowhere else in the world has. In fact, when I went to global, the first thing I understood was Canadian business, uh Canadian market is very similar to the UK market in a lot of ways, and also the North the whole like Scandinavian countries, you know, they thought there were a lot of things that we would innovate on that we would innovate with that group and then bring it to because France was such a big big market at uh at in MS, anyways, that they kind of did their own thing. But the rest of the world outside of France, Germany, and US had to collaborate. And we always stuck ourselves to the US, even if we didn't report into the US, which often in pharma they don't know where to put Canada. Sometimes we report it into Europe, sometimes Lat can, sometimes I know the company right now that's reporting into the Asian markets like Canada always sticks out somewhere weird. We're like Australia, but we don't it it's because of that we see ourselves most similar to the US. And but that had its problems because we are one-tenth of the US. So then we would not get the resources and so on. Ever since this has happened with the 51st state kind of let's not be that, or the the, I guess I would say the build Canada movement, I'm noticing conversations about countries who've always been there, but now Helen's going, Hey, did you know Brazil was like 200 million people? Why don't we go to Brazil? I'm like, yeah, how come I never thought of that? You know, it's almost like we don't we had to kind of go into that space. So it's again, the tension has really allowed us to to find these other opportunities. And uh maybe that's better. Sometimes we need to hang out with people um our own size or company, like areas that are also innovative, but not necessarily getting most of the resources. Um, so I just find that really interesting going from you know Boston to France. Those are big, but then you come back to Montreal and you're like, there's all this great stuff happening here. Hello, bring it out of Quebec. And this frustrates me because in Canada we talk about, you know, our issues within the country, which is kind of the should be the least of our worries to kind of keep something in Quebec and not Alberta, for instance. But there's definitely this tension that happens when you become global and you see that you're so small in the whole space. Um it takes a lot of resilience, identity. I wanted to talk a little bit about um this bias thing. And I think you may have addressed it a little bit, but there is this thinking that uh in some companies, if you really want to do well and go to the top and you know, basically make it to the very senior roles, you have to have, you know, left your region, which makes sense, but you have to have a global role. I've heard that many times. You know, it's not good enough that let's say you work for two different countries, that you know, in global you get sort of acclimatized to a lot more um sophisticated types of uh marketing or commercialization. And again, I'm talking more on the commercialization because we know that biotech's very centralized in certain areas of the of the world. But um my experience was that wasn't really true, that we were doing some really innovative things in Canada that the US was not doing. But I'm just curious why if you've seen that, because I know from your angles, um, Susanna, you tried to think of the global and then coming regional. And I know with Miriam you were working in the regional and then you know you end up. Do you feel that that that global experience is something that has to be done? Because not everyone can get up and go to the head office.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

No. I personally don't think there's one path to any career. And um, like some people will tell you to do carry the bag and do marketing and then make your way up and then do global. It's not linear. And I chose a path that yes includes global, but it was more to expand my horizon and understand the bigger picture and see what's happening in the rest of the world to enrich myself as opposed to um follow that path because that's what I've been told to do. And I also decided to go broad uh across development because I was a program lead for early development in the by in the startup in phase one, and I've navigated multiple launches, but also the loss of exclusivity and how to do this. So I would um venture to say that some of the advice to get a global role for for the leaders in Canada is to expand their horizon and perspective. That's probably fun. Yeah, to broaden the perspective and bring that uh maturity back to Canada. But there's other ways of doing this by working for another organization, you do that, by taking different roles, by changing function, like to go in commercial, then market access or do more medical. Like there's different ways of having breadth of perspective in addition to the depth at the functional level.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

So that is something that is definitely different, and also the way we advise our kids, right? Like, um, I know with me, I've always thought, you know, being a specialist is a good thing, and I've always felt uh uncomfortable about that element of the well, the fact that I don't have a science degree, and I literally lived in pharma for 30 years and I managed to learn about hematology. So I never thought it was rocket science to do the world I was doing and learning. At the same time, I wasn't building drugs and I wasn't, you know, I wasn't working on the bench kind of thing. At the same time, you know, there is the level of expertise that a giant company has that has a lot of these, you know, people you go to. But what I'm seeing is less and less need, as you talked about the biotech or even a smaller organization with the tools we have now. Can you just give me your thoughts about this whole being a generalist versus an expert deep? And in the case of Miriam, uh, you've in your case, Miriam, you've gone beyond what most people do. So most people, when they start with commercial, they stay in commercial, or if they start with medical or clinical, they going to biotech got you really exposed to more than that. And so how did you learn that? You obviously didn't suddenly go to school and learn new things, it was on the job, right? How did you feel about because I I hear that a lot from young students right now, graduating or or just young people looking for jobs in the in the healthcare industry or farmer, and they're saying, Well, I don't have this. Do I need to do this? And I think the reality is anyone can learn anything, but I don't want to oversimplify it.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

I agree that everyone can learn anything if they put their mind to it and will to it. Coming back to the example of my journey, I started in science and I don't have a commercial background at all. And yet I was very successful in commercial. But I started in in science, I wanted to discover drugs and be a lab rat and uh find the next uh innovation. But as I went through that, I realized that working in a lab wasn't a thing for me. So I completed my graduate degree, and from there, the natural pivot into the industry was through the clinical side of things. So I was a clinical research associate, which was you know the entry in that space. And then it was a trial and error of finding out what I enjoy doing and being curious. And early in a career, I think it's important to experiment different kinds of roles, ideally different functions, different companies, to guide the choices we make in a lifelong career journey. And I maybe with some exceptions, which are professions like uh a medical profession or lawyers, there's a freedom of being able to evolve that profession over time, and the farm mine biotech industry offers that. If you're able to solve issues, if you're able to learn and understand science, you can navigate it. And there's many resources in in larger organizations that give you the tools and the frameworks and the work ethics to be successful, but a lot of it is also the people around and what you're putting into it. So I think there's so many different paths, and the choices we make I believe should be um driven by what we enjoy doing and what gets us, keeps us alive and excited.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I think one thing you're you're both touching on is the curiosity as well, though. Um, really wanting. I mean, I I don't remember um when I was hiring people on the HRs or a grid looking for how curious people were. I think we should have done that. And I think in this world today, if we don't hire curious people, we are really in trouble because what you're describing is I want to actually learn new things and I will go and figure it out, versus what I grew up in, and it's not a pharma problem, it's actually a corporate issue where it was stay in your own lane and learn these things that we're giving you. And by the way, don't talk to that person, he's in the other lane. That's kind of exaggerating, but the reality is we were very much like in our own boxes, but now we are saying that we've proven that we can learn faster and we've got tools that get us there faster as well. And um, but you have to want to be like that. I do run into people still, even though it excites me to go across like that, where they really are not interested at all either. So I think what we're saying is we need a certain kind of I just worry about those people, but at the same time, their world is also probably very specific and they feel very gratified doing that. But not everyone can deal with that fast um change of environment. You know, you mentioned like uh working on molecules and then suddenly going and talking to patients. It kind of should be the same because every company says we need to be patient-centric, but that person who's in the lab is sometimes not the right person to do everything outside of that, but some people manage to carry it on your other.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

And the decisions or the path on your core strengths and interests, that should drive, uh, in my view, the career choices. And you're absolutely right. Not everybody is comfortable with uncertainty, and that's okay. There's so many roles and career choices someone can make. Um, and we spend so much time at work, I think it's important we enjoy what we do.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Sana, I see you're trying to jump in.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

No, I I fully agree. And what Miriam was talking about. Started off with the growth mindset, and I think, yeah, in you asked a qu about the do you need to have a global role to be able to do global stuff? And I think it is if if you are curious about what global does and you're willing to sit in their shoes without you don't have to actually do the job, but but coming from someone who I mean, we've all been in global roles. You all remember the maybe the countries that don't think from the global perspective and the countries that don't. You just you just need to be able to think from the global perspective, I think. And I think there should be no barriers. But yeah, we need we need people who are interested, and we need people who are just willing to put their head down and do the job. I think the you know, that's that's what makes it all work. You need that diversity of preferences and the diversity of abilities and uh and uh yeah, generalists, specialists, you need a bit of everything.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

I wish I was as wise. Okay, so one thing I've noticed, and I noticed this yesterday when I was at this event where I met a ventric appellist who's literally 22 years old, and I and he's very successful. And I was like, How? Like, where do you get this wisdom from? Like at 22, I could barely like put my pants on. And seriously, you know, like things would go wrong in the washing machine. No, what I'm saying is like the the actual uh maturity that people have and the curiosity and the ability to learn has really, really changed. Um, so that brings me to this, you know, the values

Legacy, Purpose, And Primary Care Gaps

SPEAKER_01 45:23

piece. What are we leaving behind? And maybe I'm just you know a little bit you know older, uh, I'm a lot older than you too, but for me, when I left pharma to go to tech and then understood what I was doing, and then left tech to find a place in between, I really started thinking about that impact thing, you know, the why. You know, I remember watching Simon Sinek's video a million times when I was in training and I, you know, gave it to our sales refs. I never really paid attention to what it really meant. The why of why we're doing certain things suddenly became much more important to me. Um, the impact of what we're doing, a little bit on the ego side as well. Like I want to create something that other people haven't, but at the same time, I want to feel that I'm giving back something or doing it. It's not so much like um uh it's not a Mother Teresa feeling. It's more like I want to change something and show people that it's possible to change something. That gets very exciting in pharma because pharma does have a lot of uh compliance risk issues, tons of regulations, it needs to be like that. But the mindset isn't always, let's change. In fact, when there is a very simple change, like sometimes a CRM change, we bring in loads of change management people. And that's a really funny thing to understand if you're on the tech side, because you're like, well, if you build something that's really beautiful and usable and people love it, you don't need change management. You don't really like when you get your iPhone, you know, I don't know, update number 65, you didn't need in a change management. It just happened. We were used to more bulky tools, things that really needed the support. The reps had to come on board and so on. So part of it is technology, part of it is mindset. What is it about this um impact that we can make? I mean, I'm not gonna say that you moved for that reason, but if you if you didn't want to have a legacy, let's say, something that you're leaving behind, what would that be for you now that you've moved forward to a different stage of your lives, different country? Has that changed? Are you thinking, okay, so now, like you mentioned, Susanna, that the healthcare system is a little bit broken here, very understated. We cannot find GPs. In fact, in Quebec, from what I've heard, everyone is looking for them. And we have this unbelievable ability now to use technology to get not necessarily diagnosis, but at least an assessment of our skin, of our cough, our whatever. We don't need to go to the family physician, physically sit there and get a prescription. Pharmacists are much more engaged in prescribing and things like that. These are not tech things, they're just realities. But you still have this burden that's happening with our main primary caregivers, the family physician. I don't see pharma sitting there and trying to really innovate in that spot. It's the tech companies. And sometimes they get stuck because it's a very giant government-delivered delivery system that will really question them on many things and make sure that everything is, you know, by the time we get it done, it's years sometimes. So this is where we're sitting, where we have these big things that we want to fix. Maybe your legacy is to fix, I don't know, GP care, but things get in the way. So one of my questions is if you really want to do that, first of all, do you want to change something? And what would it be in your lifetime of working? Um, what would be your wish list if you have a thinker belt magic wand? Tell me about what you would fix and how.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but I am in this space very deliberately. So I started my career in finance and I can, you know, it can be just as fun, but you're not when you're kind of awake in the night or whatever, you're thinking about what are you actually doing? It's you uh, you know, it's really I think it really makes a difference if you know you're building something that's going to have an impact and help people. So um I want to make sure that yeah, we apply ourselves to problems that matter, basically. And I think that always as well. I I have been very fortunate in my life. I would always attach myself to the person who's feeling the pain the most. Um, I have a a skill set that I can bring that they may not have have access to that I want to apply to help, to help there. And whether that's you know, access to primary care in Canada, wonderful, but you know, whatever it is, um I think that the the you need to get through all those layers of regulations and delays and everything. You need to have that real burning platform, the passion, the resilience, which often comes from the person, the patient, the you know, whoever is the family, whoever's really feeling the problem the most. And yeah, I'm I'm open to have the back of of somebody or some group that that really needs it. So that's yeah, that's why I'm in this industry and watch this space, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Is there something um Canada can do better than other countries? Where we are now armed more with like resources, uh, our independence is really important to us. Um there are things that are very unique here, like our diversity is massive. And so yeah, I'm thinking like clinical trials. I've always wondered this, and I've never really talked to anyone about it, but why is it that clinical trials aren't done mainly in Canada? We have every single um background, every single skin color here. You would think that it would be the perfect place rather than doing it somewhere where everyone looks and feels the same. So that's just one thing that comes to mind. We have some things unique. Is there something that we could do? Um, I mean, Miriam, I know you said you talked to your sister about the GP situation, but is there something we could do to fix ourselves, I guess, based on the fact that we are really the best ones to fix it, not go and buy it from our head office or have, you know, bring it from somewhere else? Or and can we give that out to somebody else or some other country, even to use as a model?

Canada’s Biotech Opportunity And Boldness

SPEAKER_02 51:17

So, I mean, I think it's about defining the problem. Um, and there's certainly several that have been highlighted even in today's discussion uh in the Canadian healthcare system. Um and but once that problem is defined, it is involving the stakeholders that can make a difference from all levels, from government, um, the like the ecosystem needs to be engaged. Um yeah, and I mean we I think we could probably do a podcast just on on that. Just going back to your question about legacy, I'm not looking at like something specific to leave uh behind me. It's more similar to what Susanna is saying: the higher purpose, something bigger than myself's uh and the ability to impact others. And I as I make the choice to come back to Canada, I'm looking at where are my strengths and where can I apply them to drive innovation, yet make sure that we think of patient access from the very beginning of drug development so that we are paving a path forward that payers are able to absorb the innovation, patients have access to it, the industry continues to have the revenue stream that it needs to provide innovation as well. So I think we got to think about this differently. And with the avenue of AI, um, there should be opportunities there to look for efficiencies, but also to accelerate those.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Yeah, I mean, that's something that every single company I've worked at says we are patient-centric. Um, we could be more. We could be more. And now the technology is allowing us to be very direct with that patient, and we're seeing those seismic changes happen. Um, if there's anything there that changes, and and Canada, again, is incredibly um unique there in terms of you know the sophistication of some of the systems that we have and the diversity of the patients, you would think that we would be able to contribute on the global scale more.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Um there seems to be a wheel right now, and perhaps ignited by this 51st state um rhetoric or however you want to call it. I think Canada is reckoning with the fact that this situation is an opportunity for us to stand more independent, to make connections that ensure sustainability in the long run. And there's a lot of great innovation in Canada. I'm surprised that there's no more global companies based in Canada. And when I attended Obio a month ago, it seemed to stem from the funding volume not being as important as it is in uh the United States, for example, or other parts of um Europe. I have a hard time believing that's the main reason. Uh there, I think funding can come from anywhere in the world. Is it something about how we position ourselves, what infrastructure is in place to enable entrepreneurs to be successful and see it through and not be absorbed so quickly by the bigger organization? If there is an aspiration to have a Canadian group, then um, you know, there's ought to be a solution if we put our collective mind to it. And collective mind for me is at all level, as I mentioned earlier, the government, the the organizations that are supporting that, the industry and the investor community together.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

I I think them from what I've seen so far, the missing ingredient is that confidence to take big swings and on the capital side as well, like on the investment side. And what you said, Orchid, I think is is I hope quite right that the kind of changing paradigm maybe makes it necessary to just sort of step up a little bit and take a bigger swing.

unknown 55:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

The infrastructure is great. You guys have, I mean, uh tech needs, you know, stability. It needs like lots of energy. There's a lot of the big tech companies are all putting their data centers in Canada, right? So you and you're exactly right. The you know, there's the the the very diverse, one of the most diverse populations in the world. Um a great place to study and create um less biased data, you know, uh, or to export health data. There's so much opportunity. The fundamentals are great, talent is great, and and I wonder if the missing ingredients are not that sort of confidence and boldness to sort of take it on.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

The boldness, I think, more. I mean, that's something that I've definitely recognized. I recognize it when I went from um Canada pharma to global pharma, where I was really, really expecting uh this unbelievable, I don't know, an explosion of talent around me. They were just like us, and we were actually quite amazing compared to the Americans and the global people around us. The other thing I noticed when I was on the tech side going to Silicon Valley, what I recognize was that we are definitely lacking the boldness. We are, we don't take as much risk, and we frankly don't have as much capital, but the risk taking is really important. So our government plays a role there with grants and things, but it's a it's not a private uh role. And so people grow up in an infrastructure where there's a lot of um, I think, reliance on the government to start some of these opportunities, um, which makes me think, okay, so what can we do? I mean, if if you guys had again, um if thought about mentoring someone, like someone who wants to get into the space and really make a difference, whether they're on the tech side of healthcare or on the pharma side, are there things that you would champion them to do? Um, that you would knowing what you know now after all these years, say, you know what, take this risk. It's not gonna, it's not gonna destroy the company. And of course, be compliant, but you there are some things that you would say to them, or would you say this is something that has to happen outside a pharma to come and um, you know, get more innovative, for lack of a better word? Are there things that you would advise a young person to there are a lot of young people who want to get into this industry right now and wondering how patient-centric it really is, because I really feel like that's something that they listen to more than maybe we did years ago. And so those answers, you know, when that you tell them, well, you have to go through these six loops to get a drug, sometimes it doesn't make sense that commentary when you're talking to someone outside pharma. And then you realize, well, it is kind of weird that I can't do these things directly. That was just one of my realizations of how we uh we can we sort of have these myths in pharma that you have to do things a certain way on the commercial side. We know things are faster on the drug development side, but the money that we spend is really mainly on a commercial side.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

I guess I would advise anyone to not kind of be intimidated by people who are saying things can't this can't be done. Like learn the system, obviously, understand the rules and everything, but but to always challenge what would it take, you know, and to have and to really value their fresh perspective because I think it's uh it's a really important one. We're trying to change, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Around young perspective, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Yeah, and building on Susanna's point, this can do mindset and curiosity to understand so that you can then look for solution is critical. Also, critical is having the patient centricity early on in drug development with the knowledge of what it takes to bring it to the patient and what infrastructure is in place. So there, I think commercial needs to come in early to guide drug development and work in partnership with some of the key markets to think through what needs to happen to make it more accessible. And to where I think you were going, Orchid, with the direct to patient now, with AI and so much access to information that our fingerprint patients seem to be wanting things more quickly and have a lot more information. So, how do we anticipate where that relationship is going in terms of the patient, physician, access to drug at the pharmacy, and be part of that ecosystem and enable a better experience for patients ultimately?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Thank you. I think a part of what you can see, others can't see perhaps sometimes because you've done some of these things and you've you have these success stories as

Why Thinkerbell And Community Matters

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

well. So, my final question, I guess the work final question uh related to your professional world is why have you joined the Thinkerbow team? Obviously, you know, not everyone is um the same, but we have these unique, our uniqueness from an experience perspective, is we have very deep pharma experience, but we also have other experiences related to tech and devices and so on. Can you think of something that if you were going to, I don't know, I guess put a billboard up and say we are thinker roles because is that something that's unique and what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

I can start if you want. So I I mean, if I was talking talking to the young person that's trying to enter the industry, that would be another piece of advice I'd give them is find um a community of people that can learn from you and you can learn from and can support each other. And I think that for the same reason, think about has all of the experience where exactly as you were saying, Miriam, you know the the group, the individuals know how a product is developed, how it gets to market, um, but then also have those fresh eyes and fresh perspective because of the breadth of what the group is seeing, if um, and the and the connections that can be made with what's new and what wasn't there five years ago. So I think it's sort of almost the and I'm trying to kind of draw the analogy between someone just joining the industry, but having all of that experience and knowledge of the frameworks and the rules and and what it takes and bringing in a bit of a fresh, like because it's thinkable magic, uh sprinkle sprinkled fairy dust. Um, but but yeah, with a with a a group of people that collectively can can create that completely fresh perspective, I would say. And being based in Canada as well, which is such an advantage for all the reasons we've said.

unknown 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

Anything to add to that, Miriam, that comes to your mind?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

I call that what Susanna said, so I won't repeat that. What I will add is this community is very collegial, and that there's a willingness to learn from each other and to give each other feedback, and it's not threatening in any way. And I'm I'm just joining uh Tinkerbell. And what appealed to me is the sentiment of freedom that exists within this community, where Orchid is encouraging talent to join. Uh, you recognize the talent, you acknowledge that we complement each other. For some of us, it's uh it's part of a transition to something else. And that's okay. There's that freedom that is also omnipresent within your group, which is, I think, unique to other how others are functioning. And the last point I want to make is I'm a firm, firm believer that we cannot succeed on our own, like as one individual. And that's something that I find Tinkerbell embraces is this element of community with it, the Tinkerbells, but also all the connections that we have worldwide contribute and we pull into that talent and knowledge at a fingertip because we've maintained those relationships over the years. And our kid has a lot in Canada, which uh is useful for uh Susanna and I integrating into the Canadian ecosystem, but we can equally contribute our global network to benefit the Canadian innovation in that uh dynamic. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

That's so beautifully said, and I feel very proud of what we've created just hearing you say that. Um the main thing there is that it is sometimes a transitional period. We have had thinker bells come in and go and get jobs, but they still hang out. There's I I feel like you're always, I hate to say this, tattooed. We don't tattoo people, but you know, you always have this sort of community, and maybe we will formalize it so that we can bring this back over and over again. Because if those connections of everyone with all like we have something like 130 plus years of experience in pharma right now with just the ones we hang out with, uh just us, the seven of us. But I think that what I'm saying is we have to bottle that but not keep it just for ourselves, it's just to coordinate that would be an unbelievable exponential benefit for those we talk to. And I don't believe in doing, I mean, I'm you guys probably know this by now. I don't create much on my own. I always take other people's ideas and uh, you know, sort of not explode them, but I try to take them to other places a little bit like the fairy thing, Tinkerbell I hear, who just sort of, you know, sprinkles stuff and moves things around. But much more seriously, I really do think that that connection and what we learn from each other is more important than the actual thing that we came started with. So thank you for letting me um deep dive into your personal views. I know this is a very personal thing to you both for you. It'll be really interesting for you to come back in uh five years. And say, hey, you know, that was sort of the start of my journey in Canada. So I'm going to just leave you with or ask one word from you. Give me one word that explains to you how you want to, I guess, how you feel now. Two words. How do you feel right now? And if you looked at this or listened to this podcast in five years, what would be that word? You know, is there a change? Is there some is there a vision that you have? How do you feel right now? The first word.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

I feel blessed to know you and Susanna and be part of this community. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

I also feel can I have two? Grateful and hopefully. Say that again? Grateful and also hopeful, I think, uh, for what the future holds.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

And I'm really grateful that you're part of my journey right now, this moment. Really enjoying this. I really love this conversation. Um, thank you for your honesty, the um, you know, just this willingness to share this reality. I and I know, I know for a fact there are people right now trying to figure out what to do with their next step in their

One-Word Reflections And Closing Invite

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

life, and things are just very uh different from the way they were a month ago, and perhaps trying new jobs, new roles. I want people to understand that if I could live in pharma without a science degree for 30 years, you can learn anything. Um, but seriously, though, it's really um it's been fabulous having you on the show. Um for everyone else listening, thank you so much for being part of this thinker-talk community. We always want to celebrate um different sides of healthcare, whether you're a founder, um, you're building something with heart, or if you have this vision for a healthier future, if you're on the investor side, if you're on the um pharma side, anything related to what we talked about, um, we would love to have you. And if you want to be on the show, give me a call. Please share this with someone who you think needs that dose of bravery and grit or inspiration. Until next time, stay bold, stay human, and keep trailblazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:06

Where the lab is the ledger and the day to drive the deal. Farmer minds and biotech hearts go to what we need. Digital health disruptors, rewriting how we heal. Bold trailblazers talking, think a talk, take the lead. Founders, investors, visionaries in the room. Reshaping patient care and watch the future bloom. This is where the thinkers talking big ideas. Think a talk, step in, find your crew.