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ThinkrTalk
ThinkrTalk is the only podcast spotlighting the bold ideas and breakthroughs happening at the intersection of biopharma, healthcare technology and investment.
We’ll bring you smart conversations with the TRAILBLAZERS transforming patient care—from inside pharma, scaling health techs, or leading the charge in funding the next big innovation.
Expect real-world advice, fresh perspectives, and stories that fuel action. Whether you’re an industry veteran or just breaking into the space, ThinkrTalk gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping the future of healthcare.
ThinkrTalk
From Patient-Centricity to Patient Agency: Pharma’s New Opportunity
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Pharma has talked about patient-centricity for decades. But today, patients are moving beyond being considered in the healthcare journey—they are actively designing it.
In this episode of ThinkrTalk, Orchid Jahanshahi of ThinkrBelle is joined by Sandra Elia, author, international speaker and patient advocate with Obesity Matters, and Shawna Boynton, pharmaceutical commercial leader and Director of Marketing, Aesthetics at Galderma Canada.
Together, they explore a fundamental shift in healthcare: from giving patients access to giving them genuine agency.
As direct-to-patient models, AI-powered information, digital health platforms and online communities expand, patients are increasingly combining medication, tech platforms/wearables and peer support to create their own care ecosystems, often faster than healthcare and pharmaceutical systems can adapt.
This timely conversation examines:
- Why patient-centricity and patient agency are not the same thing
- Whether patients are gaining control, or being forced to self-navigate a fragmented system
- How conditions like obesity, dermatology and women’s health are exposing the limitations of traditional patient journeys
- The opportunities and risks created by direct-to-patient models
- Why promising digital-health pilots struggle to become integrated or scalable in healthcare
- How Pharma can move from designing for patients to designing with them
- What the industry should stop doing...and what it must start doing now
The central challenge is clear: if patients are already leading their own healthcare journeys, what is Pharma’s rightful role?
This candid discussion brings together lived patient experiences and an insider perspective to consider what a more human, connected and empowering healthcare model could look like. But is the pharma industry prepared to relinquish enough control to help create it.
This episode explores how true patient agency can people the understanding, support and power to shape what happens next in their healthcare.
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ThinkrTalk celebrates Life Science Innovators, Doers and Dreamers reshaping healthcare — one bold step at a time.
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Until next time, Keep TRAILBLAZING!
This episode of ThinkrTalk was hosted by Orchid Jahanshahi and Produced by Marc Kostoff of The Basement Studios.
Cold Open And Theme
SPEAKER_02Where the lad makes the legend and the data drive the deal. From the lines and biotech hearts go to what we need. Digital health disruptors, rewriting how we heal. Bold trailblazers, talking, thinker talk, take the lead.
Meet The Guests And Focus
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to Thinker Talk, where we sit with the people reshaping healthcare, biopharma technology, and the way we live and experience care. So today's guests really bring those two sides of that reality. Sandra Elia, she brings that lived experience. Sandra's a powerful voice in obesity and is the author of Never Enough, Three Pillars of Food Addiction Recovery. In that book, and I think always she's exploring the stigma, identity, and what it really feels to navigate the system that really misunderstands patients. And of course, we have Shauna Boynton, who has really advanced a very diverse career and leadership inside the pharma space, from GSK to Novo Nordisk to now Galderma. And she works at this intersection of innovation, commercialization, and patient engagement. So I have some questions about your lived experiences here.
Owning Your Health Journey
SPEAKER_03For instance, Sandra, when did you first feel that patients and women consumers are taking more control of their lives when it comes to obesity and weight care?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that we have no choice but to own our own journey. I think, especially here in Canada, we have a shortage of primary health care. Um, people that are available to us, often our doctors, you know, here in Ontario, covered by OHIP, just don't have the time to really listen and understand my full story. So I have to own my own health journey. Um I think that's becoming easier as more technology is available to us and we can do our own research and look into research papers. You know, if I think back to when I was a little girl, my sister-in-law had a medical dictionary and she was our Google search. We would call her up and say, these are my symptoms. What could it be? And she'd look through this. And now I feel like information is out there. Um, and um, it shouldn't be the case, but we can own our own paths and become informed and then find the right healthcare providers who do listen, who do have compassion for us. And that might be a journey in and of itself, depending on where you live.
SPEAKER_03That's so interesting. You talk about compassion. So it's not just from, I mean, I mentioned pharma, the physicians, the healthcare practitioners, um, have an ability now, maybe through AI, maybe just through different types of education, to create that compassion in a different way. Do you think that idea of patients having their own um agency and that they can self-navigate through the systems better, do you think that has changed the way uh healthcare professionals are managing this and I guess trusting the patient to make their own decisions, or is there still a struggle or a friction there?
SPEAKER_00I think it has to be a collaborative partnership. I worry when people own their own journey, because at the end of the day, my doctor has a perfect mug on her desk that says, please don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree, right? And so, yes, I can come with questions, I can do my own research, but at the end of the day, I do not have a medical degree. And so I need somebody who's willing to listen to me and to partner with me.
SPEAKER_03So what we're talking about is not so much information about drugs. So absolutely, you're coming into the physician's office now more informed and also more disinformed. For like, you know, there's a lot of bad information out there. So that's really tough, actually, from the perspective of the person who's getting all that information. You talked a lot about stigma to me in terms of what actually has happened in the last 10, 15 years. And we're in a different place. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that because I know you've been a big part of obesity uh matters, and you're a huge advocate for reducing that stigma.
Stigma At Three Levels
SPEAKER_03Has that changed?
SPEAKER_00So I feel like people living with obesity feel face bias and stigma at three levels. We face it internalized bias, societal bias, and then eventually healthcare bias. So internalized bias is my internal voice. And so many of us grew up during the diet culture. And a lot of our work today is undoing diet culture. But you have to understand many of us heard these messages on repeat with emotional intensity. You know, you just no pain, no gain. You gotta have willpower, restrict. Why, you know, why aren't you just getting a six-pack in six weeks before summer? That kind of stuff that we grew up with doesn't just get undone because now we know obesity is a chronic um condition and it is a real medical condition. So there's that piece. But then this is a medical condition that does face bias because people are judged by their bodies. And for so long, we understand that if somebody, these are again messages we've heard on repeat that if you're slender, you have more discipline, you're definitely smarter, you're more hireable, you're more desirable, you're gonna have a better life. So, what happens to those of us who live in larger bodies? Because now we understand that health comes at a lot of different sizes. Um, so there's also that piece. So I have to get over my internalized bias, but then there's the whispers around me, things like, oh gosh, I hope she doesn't sit beside me on the plane, or, you know, doesn't she know that GLP ones work? Why isn't she on one? Right. So that and then finally, if you can overcome that and you get to your doctor, well, guess what? Not all doctors are the same. I have clients who've gone to their doctors for help and they say, we don't give those shots out here. I don't understand that, but clear enough to even provide that for you. Um, so it it's it's quite the plight and it's very unique when we consider this disease state. Now, there I know there are other diseases that have shame associated with it, which is wrong. Um, however, there is no other disease state where there was a billion-dollar market called the diet industry that told us they had
From Diet Culture To GLP-1 Hype
SPEAKER_00the answer. We would never allow that in any other disease state. But for some reason, if you're living with obesity, this false advertising was totally allowed. And so my big concern right now, what I'm starting to witness, is the diet carnival has been replaced with the G GLP1 carnival. And now it's like, I don't, which provider do I trust? What platform do I trust? Who, why all of a sudden is everybody interested in helping me? Is it dollars and market share, or do you actually care about me? And no one's answering that question. Who do I trust now?
SPEAKER_03I find that incredibly fascinating, and that's why I really want uh Shauna to jump into here. Shauna and I worked in this space three years ago, and the changes to today are literally seismic. Felix was not selling GLP1, hims and hers hadn't come to Canada. Microdosing was like, what is that? Is that like LSD? Now everyone I know is microdosing. But what's really interesting for me is now that these drugs are cheaper, suddenly they become safer, which isn't really the truth. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about exactly what you said. We went from the diet, Weight Watchers world to, oh my God, Ozempic, my my husband knows the jingle, you know, and he's not an Ozempic. So, in terms of we can focus back on the agency of the patient and what Sandra's talking about, how much effort uh it took to create this understanding that there's a stigma, pharma really did help that because there was a joint interest to have obviously people consider therapies. Is this pharma's role and do you see a shift in this where it's sort of coming to the better place? And Shama, before you start, I just wanted to let the audience know that the opinions you'll express on this podcast are your own and not representing those of your employer.
Pharma Loses The Front Door
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think there there is a shift. There's a power shift, and you know, I think that patients now control when, where, and how they access access care. And Sandra was referring to that. You were referring to some of those virtual platforms as well. But pharma no longer owns the entry point. So I think patients are very much driving and they're coming in more informed than ever before with AI. And I really like the reference. I've seen that too, Sandra, that Google does not compare to my medical degree and it is partnership. So I think that pharma continuously plays a role in sharing information that is balanced. And I think that's extremely important when we are sharing information. I am, you know, wouldn't be in my role if I didn't advocate for awareness. I think that that's really important. Um, but I also think that information asymmetry is collapsing. So with AI and these digital health platforms, um, you know, patients are just they're really informed, they're ready to act. And I think they're pushing the healthcare providers in ways that they haven't been pushed before. And it's difficult, I think, on them. And it pharma's role is to make sure that they're ready, that the healthcare providers are ready with the information that they need to make sure that they are, to Sandra's point, in partnership, guiding the patient appropriately and, you know, the right, the right medication at the right time. Absolutely. We still have to make sure that balance uh still rings true.
SPEAKER_03And what about the channels? I guess by channel I mean um, you know, as you mentioned, now as a person, you can go and as you get your skincare, you can also get your um GLP ones, probably from the same place. So um, so let's talk a little bit about um the reality today, besides the healthcare professionals. So a lot of these platforms have the ability to have the patients can get the prescription, and all of them have healthcare professionals, whether they're doctors or nurse practitioners. There are certain medications that are now prescribed by pharmacists, can't, you know, uh get all these patients. So then what is pharma's role there in terms of, because you mentioned um one of the things that pharma does really well, and I totally agree with this, is that balance because it's based on the best evidence possible and it's based on the label and what it's indicated for. So we're, you know, pharma would never go out there and say just microdose because there's no evidence behind it. What if those things are happening in other channels, let's say um, you know, some of these online places, does pharma have a role to do something or to partner do something with that? Because it's impacting their main customer, which is the patient.
SPEAKER_01So, yes, I think each of these stakeholders play a role in making sure that we're bringing the right information to the patient, and the patient's getting what they need at the right time. And, you know, I think you're mentioning yes, these virtual platforms, um, but there's also this emergence of these sort of longevity clinics, and they're bringing in, yeah, you were mentioning before as well, skin care. Um, and I do think they this holistic approach overall is wonderful. However, I think we just need to tread lightly and make sure that we're not over-prescribing what these uh GLP1s patients are getting what they need, the microdosing, all of these things are coming up, and it's very relevant topic. But I just wonder the long wonder about the long-term effects a little bit and if it is truly the best thing for the patient long term, um, without, I don't know, like really strong oversight of the patient journey as they're on the medication. And I do question sometimes if that exists in those formats. Um, and I think there's some risks there. I think there's some risks there. And I do think that pharma plays a role in the education piece, but it's not any one stakeholder that is accountable for that um by itself.
SPEAKER_03And I don't want to pick on GLP ones, it's just it's very current. You know, I'm I was we were just having this conversation about ADHD medications that have been safe and out there and accessible, and people uh have there's a lot of stigma around that. Yeah, I just think it's a fascinating topic. It's almost a philosophical discussion as to who who will transform that. I my personal view is consumers and patients and humans should who are paying for it, whether through side effects or value. In the US, the drugs went from $1,000 a month, GLP1, to $100 a month. Well, of course you're going to be able to afford it. Suddenly, market access is not an issue. I will decide whether the drug is efficacious or not. I take all these vitamins that I'm not sure about, as long as it's safe, right? So that whole parameter of what's good and what's not changes.
SPEAKER_00There's one other consideration.
Support Gaps And Patient Risk
SPEAKER_00So you mentioned you take, and I think we all do like vitamins, and we have no idea if it's helpful or not helpful. Um, but when we're talking about people living with obesity, this is a very vulnerable population. Not only have them been shamed, blamed, discriminated against, but they also come from a history of trying, trying to do this on their own, trying to manage a chronic disease on their own and then failing. And it's not that they failed, it's oftentimes the diet failed them, right? We now know over 95% of all diets failed. The diet was never gonna work. So now we're in this new era where we have safe and effective medicine. However, if they are not taking it properly, if they are not supported properly, are we not setting up this vulnerable population to fail again? To again say, oh, it must be me. Here I go again. Nothing's working for me, but they weren't supported properly.
SPEAKER_03And I I want to point out that that's exactly the world that you play. And both of you actually have done that. I mean, uh, Shana, you were the first, one of the first people who um brought in an AI tool in your company with me on the other side, because even though it was for sales reps, when you think about what that tool does, at the end of the day, if the salespeople do the right thing, the physicians will do the right thing and the patient will benefit from it. So it's it's and it was one of the first AI tools ever brought into Pharma. But we've come such a long way since then. That was only a couple of years ago. That tool is still there, but there was no generative AI back then. There was no agentich stuff. So going back to the AI now, some of the things you talked about was it's not just the drug, it's not just the digital, you know, noom app, but it's also this community, right? And of people not having to live through this stigma alone. So they have their own online community now. So I'm sure now when you go to talks, people will have that other place to go to, because but that community that you created was so unique. Um, and I know you weren't uh the only one, obviously, pretty uh pretty Shala was the start of that, but maybe talk to us a little bit about when that started. I went, I want to say it was about what, seven years ago. It was very unique because Obesity Canada was there, and this was a completely different uh movement, and it was all based on what we're talking about. Can you just talk to
Obesity Matters And Human Connection
SPEAKER_03that? And I know you guys just won an award for that too, so many.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Obesity uh obesity matters um was started by four women with lived experience, and our founder is pritichala. And we started during COVID at a time when people were feeling extreme isolation. All of the supports, all the things that kept us healthy and thriving were being taken away from us. We couldn't go for to the gym, we couldn't go for walks, we couldn't get together with friends and family. So people were struggling. And then we understood that obesity also was a factor in COVID that made you more vulnerable. Um, so we we came together and we built this community grassroots. I love women, I love working with powerful women because we just get stuff done and we get it done quickly and we listen to what our community wants. And so we wanted to educate. That was our number one piece. And because of our network of some of the top obesity doctors in Canada, we were able to provide health equity across Canada and across North America. In fact, people like Dr. Sean Wharton, Dr. Sandy Benn, Dr. Laura Reardon, and on and on into the living rooms of people across Canada. They would get a chance to hear from them, learn from them, and ask questions. The next piece was to advocate. And so we were able to create specifically an arm in Quebec. And so Quebec has some very unique challenges, um, not allowing, you know, um uh drugs being covered in that province and having their health minister say that obesity isn't a chronic uh illness. And so we started an arm there. We're doing a lot of advocacy work, and then most importantly, is we built a community. And yes, AI is there, but we need human connection. We need to know that we are not alone. We need to know that what we do best is we provide a non-judgmental space where everyone is welcomed and everyone is revered. Um, the World Health Organization has come out to say that loneliness and isolation is a major social deterrence that I don't believe tech is ever going to solve. So that is something we do really well. And our work was recognized at the United Nations Assembly just this September in New York for our uh work towards treatment and care of obesity. So it's been such a pleasure. And we're just growing by leaps and bounds. And when we first started this, um, I thought, you know, what are we gonna offer people living with obesity? I just didn't know. Like, what can we give them? And I realized it was love. We're gonna love you. We're gonna open our doors and we're gonna open our arms and we are gonna accept you and love you. And the response has been tremendous.
SPEAKER_01Orchid, can I jump in on this? Just because I think this um recognition and acceptance of this United Nations award, we were at dinner, Sandra, and the modesty in which this came to life and this team, but the massive accomplishment that it is, I think it's so understated and it's just such a pleasure to watch. Um, you know, and you just your ambition and what you're doing with Obesity Matters, it just rings true, even in such a big forum like that. And I just love the story on how it was like, no, we won. We won like you a United Nations Award, like really. So it was just uh, it's just been a pleasure to kind of watch that over the past months as well. And it's so well deserved.
SPEAKER_00It it really, it really was shocking to us. I remember when Priti invited me to go to New York. At first, I'm like, I can't fit in, I can't fit in. She's like, Well, it's United Nations, I'm coming. And I didn't even understand what a big deal that was until I arrived in Manhattan and all the roads are closed and there's security. I'm like, is this a big deal? Like, wait a minute, I'm seeing it on the news every night. And then Priti did know a few days before that we had won, and she didn't believe the email. She said, Can you read this? And it clearly says we won. And she goes, Do you think so? Yes, it says it in black and white. We have to prepare a speech. And she couldn't accept it. And uh, that's how big of an honor it really was. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I have to say, I being the OG of these things, and and I know how hard the three, four, five of you worked, and how even, you know, and physicians too. I remember the conversations I had with Preeti and how hard it was for her to accept that she, you know, little the little group of you is gonna like, you know, get ex get pharma excited. Let's just, let's just put it out there, right? Like Shauna was at that point on the pharma side with that business. And yeah, I mean, every pharma was working with Sorry, Obesity Canada because it's very focused on the RD and the it is very medication focused. You guys decided to do something completely different. And there were times when, you know, it's like, what are we doing? How can we? And it just grew and grew and grew. And every year it's grown. And now, like you said, leaps and bounds, and it's so it's organic. And I really want us to celebrate this moment. And I am look, I lived in pharma for 30 years. I love pharma, and pharma is still my client. I love pharma. But when you get out of that world and you realize how much impact consumers, people, humans can have on the world of pharma, then you're like, hello. In my heart, I really believe that model. If pharma followed it and really understood that and then scaled it with all of their wealth and all of the resources, is exactly the model they need. And so I want to come to Shana about that because speaking of skin, you're in that world now. And just in your thought process, you must have some parallels in terms of like, are there any parallels from what you did before and now?
Weight Loss Meets Skin Reality
SPEAKER_03Where is that with respect to all this stuff we talk about, agency and all that? Because not that stuff is not completely open either. Like some of the changes you can make to your body and face and skin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I mean, uh if I can share sort of the evolution and in what's emerged for me in this transition. From working within the obesity and diabetes space at Novo Nordisk and transitioning into the wonderful, fantastic, dynamic world of injectable aesthetics, it's a very different world. And, you know, obviously, with the emergence over the past four or five years of these GLP ones being used for weight loss, we, as Galderma, found that this was impacting uh these patients' skin. And it was unexpected, I think, that these facial changes would appear. And when I came in and kind of looked at this problem that these patients are facing along this journey that will not end there, it just continues and continues. I from I think looking backwards, I thought of obesity matters, I thought of Preety right away and just thought the way, like I knew the way that they approached patients with that compassion and the journey and that investment in making sure they were supported, they were feeling loved, they had the empathy. And I hope I'm doing it justice, uh, Sandra, in the description of how I see obesity matters. And I thought, ah, that's it. That's who we need to work with to build awareness for these patients. And it's not going to be for everybody, but for the patients that experience these facial changes and have no idea what to do about it. They deserve to know that there's an option. And I knew it was obesity matters that would help us to build that awareness that there's an option for these patients along that stage of the journey. And, you know, we sat at dinner one night and we, I loved what you said earlier, Sandra. I was floated out an idea on the dinner table, and we were all kind of newly sitting together, and we made it happen and we brought it to life very quickly. And, you know, I'm super, super proud to be partnered with Obesity Matters with the impact that they make and how authentic and genuine it is. And that's the approach that we're taking. It is a journey for these patients. Um, and Galderma has a wonderful portfolio of options to support them. So there's just kind of a natural fit. And yeah, so that that's where we have converged in working together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I would say our values are aligned in putting the patient at the center and offering evidence-based treatment options because very similarly with skincare, there's there's a lot of stuff out there that you don't know where to start or who to trust or where to go, but but you've done the the research. And so that's there. And I think what I also enjoyed about working with Galderma is that we are giving women permission. You have permission to love and appreciate where you are right now in your journey and still have that very human desire to want to look good and to want to improve and to want to try these treatments. And that's fine. And you should be able to do that with full permission.
SPEAKER_03And just to for the for the listeners, just to because they may not um get that link between obesity and the skin, you know, there is evidence, very good evidence. Mind you, I did speak to many physicians who say they don't see ozampic face, but I've seen it myself. There's evidence that obviously you lose muscle, you you're you lose weight, and your skin looks different, and suddenly you're beautiful in your body and your face is like, what the, you know, and no one wants that. Uh again, beauty. I want to just emphasize beauty is a really important thing. There's nothing wrong with beauty. And as women, we've always wanted to be beautiful, but there's something that goes inside and outside at the same time sometimes. And I think what we're talking about is, you know, we should be giving permission to women who want to feel beautiful on the outside so they can feel beautiful inside. And I think that's when I went over one of the physicians who you know, where I said to him, I said, You're so against this microdosing thing, because there's no evidence on the efficacy, there's evidence on the tolerability and the safety. But why can't I want to lose 20 pounds? Let's say I'm not in that clinical space where you would provide me, you know, one of these drugs. But if the microdosing is something that's going to help me and my emotional stability, that's where I think that push comes from. And this is where we can't the pragmatic thing is let's just make sure it's safe versus it has to be like in the New England Journal of Medicine. This is where like we're not perfect human beings. It just the humanity of that is allowing patients to also not rely on the government to tell them what to do if something is covered or not, if they can afford it or if their insurance covers it. Do you think in the world that you're in now, all of the um the ways that you would be marketing a product for aesthetics or an aesthetic product, does that inform pharma? Are there things that you're doing that you you kind of think back and go, oh, pharma should be maybe thinking about it this way? Are there is there a relationship?
Influencers, AI, And Better Education
SPEAKER_01Yes, there's a relationship. Yes, I think there's things that I wish we could do in pharma. I think with regard to the way that we're working in aesthetics and the appetite for consumers and patients that are looking for aesthetics treatments or enhancements with their skin, is they want to understand the journey. So we do a lot of work with social media influencers to go through what a journey would look like. There's all sorts of questions with regard to different treatments and what the outcome and the changes and the treatment and what will this all feel like and what will the experience be? And we are able to do that in on the aesthetics medicine side. We're not as able to do that on the pharma side. And, you know, I think though there is a bridging with Obesity Matters, where I think they do a beautiful job of bringing forward the patient experience, that lived experience. So I do think that there's um a synergy with working closely with Obesity Matters or an organization like Obesity Matters in whatever given therapeutic area to bring that experience to the surface. This is it's a journey, and I think that that's what patients are looking to relate to and understand as they're going through any different disease or challenge in their health journey.
SPEAKER_03I'll just um put a little plug-in for a company that I'm super excited about that can help this a little bit. Uh, this connection between the therapeutic and beauty is um company you're familiar with, both of you, skinopathy. So there are clients of this company that are big pharma looking at psoriasis, and there are clients that are uh L'Oreal like clients. It's really super interesting to see that you know, these are the same people. You know, they could have uh atopic dermatitis at the same time, they could buy a skinceutical product. The cool thing, the coolest thing is they can also look at their skin with responsible AI and look to see for sure if it's good enough to pick up on the psoriasis front. It's probably good enough to see if your wrinkles are going away as well. So that I think is super cool. And what I've also seen is pharma utilize these types of things for um gaining attention and engaging people. So there are these, again, digital tools using AI and influencers and all of those things that my 16-year-old knows a lot more about than I do. Uh, TikTok. Uh you know, but it's true. I mean, we get a lot of they're already doing this, right? Influencers to to bring that message out, whether it is about the beauty of your skin or the health of your skin. In fact, I heard a comment the other day that I was kind of surprised about, but coming from the company that it did, that they said, you know, we should think about our healthcare professionals as the influencers. I'm like, duh, we've always thought key opinion leaders are influencing things, but they were thinking, no, no, no, we need to give them something that gets them on TikTok to talk. And I'm like, that's actually possible now. I never would have thought that through. I wouldn't thought that we could, in a very compliant, fun way get physicians to influence other because you know, SEO and all those things in terms of general advertising are gonna be gone soon. So this idea of taking something and just letting it run with with the voice of a physician is is now possible through again, scaling it with AI and so on. Is that something that um you guys feel is realistic, or is it still out there in sci-fi world in your minds?
SPEAKER_01I'm just curious. I mean, I will say, sorry, Sandra, you can go ahead, but I'm so we we did invest in AI. It's called the face app. Um, and I think again, people in the aesthetics uh medicine world are wanting to just see what is this gonna look like. So it's very cool. If you select any given product, it will show you what that enhancement or treatment would look like, and you can see the before and after for our whole aesthetics portfolio. And we find it's really impactful to support in that patient conversation with the practitioner or the injector on you know, helping the patient understand what real time what um these the treatment will generate for them.
SPEAKER_00That's so cool. Can anybody download that app?
SPEAKER_01Um it's available at a clinic near you.
SPEAKER_02Okay, it's not that we need to start.
SPEAKER_01It's not available to patients, it's within our clinics with uh the clinics that we partner that have brought it in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's where I think those are all new things. And I'm sure if we have this conversation in three months, even that world is changing because that world is exploding in terms of what you can do with AI. But there's issues with that, right?
Responsible AI And Women’s Health
SPEAKER_03Like it's not free of adverse effects, and these are not physical adverse effects. You've got to make sure these AIs are responsible. You've got to make sure they're governed. The bias comes from so many different wor ways, right? Like you mentioned earlier, Sandra, you know, everything was uh the Weight Watchers bias. We have a lot of uh apps now, right? We have apps for skin and apps for weight and apps for mental. There is a world that can happen where you have apps for women's health. Like women can be actually a customer, 51% of the population. It's so funny when I mentioned that to some tech companies, they're like, but we want to go for the whole thing. I'm like, 51% of the population is not big enough. So I have not seen that really in terms of a real true health, you know, and again, who's going to sponsor it? It's hard to actually get the pieces together. But do you feel that there's something that we're doing better? Have you have you thought about this with respect to growing your own world of going into a women's health form?
SPEAKER_00I think the first step that people often miss is when you can truly articulate someone's experience and articulate the pain and the barriers that they're facing, that then they would be more willing to hear the solution that you have. And that's the step that many people miss. And I think that's important, especially with women and especially with women living with obesity.
SPEAKER_03And do you find with obesity matters, women and men react differently to your offering as a community? Do they behave differently?
SPEAKER_00Most of our community is women, and we are looking at that. Why is that? And I believe it's because we're an all women-led organization, and we take care of our communication. And so we're likely speaking from our heart to the heart of women. And so, whenever your community is not fully representative, you have to look at the communication and the marketing. Are you speaking in a way we have to look at ourselves and say, are we speaking in a way that would attract more men into our community? So that's what we're currently looking at. But most of our community is women.
SPEAKER_03I would challenge you on that. You have quite a few really outspoken men. Yes, in there that have really have a but understand women. They understand women.
SPEAKER_00They understand women, but you can count them on two hands. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think we've been thinking about this as if again, why is it your problem and your issue of how you're communicating? What if you turn that completely around and said, We do women are more attracted to what we do because I've been to your events. I've never felt like it was a female event. I've never felt excluded. I've actually brought more men, I think, to those events. Now, whether they follow through or something, there's something here about a man and a woman, perhaps, or let's just say, let's not talk by gender per se, but let's say feminine and masculine qualities of people, maybe they're more interested in the space, uh, more vocal, more whatever. And I think it goes back to Ed Pharma does this really well to say, find your target market and go crazy with it, right? And so if you guys are perhaps seeing that, maybe that is exactly what needs to be grown rather than trying to push the men. Because I know I try to, for instance, bring some men, and they're you're absolutely right. Like it just doesn't seem to appeal, but never once have I heard it's because it's a female organization. I would wonder if Obesity Uh Network would say the same thing or obesity Canada. I'm just curious about that. I'm not yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think there yeah, there is something to say. Anyone who's in the obesity space will tell you that it is mostly women that come forward and are seeking the help and seeking the community. And so that's a great nut to crack. I'm not sure what the answer is.
SPEAKER_03What about Shano and skin and your customers?
SPEAKER_01So I think this first off, our patient population is mainly female dominated, and there's a growing um segment that are on going through medication-driven weight loss and menopause or perimenopause. It's a very, very relevant, relevant demographic. And menopause is the next focus that we will compound on top of the medication-driven weight loss. That it's kind of just adding on to itself. And the impact on the skin is significant, the laxity, the fat buds, um, the facial changes that are driven by hormones, driven by weight loss, all those things. So it's very relevant. They are very much part of the conversation, these women, and we are targeting them to make sure, again, that there's just awareness of the options that are available to them to enhance their skin quality, to bring back that contouring, that you know, youthfulness that they're seeking. And we're all seeking. We're going through a journey as we grow every day as women. And I think that that investment in ourselves should not be anything but celebrated. Whether we are investing in our skin health or a weight loss journey, or maybe going on HRT, whatever that is, we should be celebrating that and not be anything but proud of moving forward into that and investing in ourselves that way.
SPEAKER_03There's a change that I'm seeing, which is not so much about women trying to be again little men, but saying, learn from us. There's so many different paths we went across. I feel like having dinner with you over like just a lot of these conversations with men in the room as well, by the way. So when I say that about men, there are so many who are watching this and want to learn these things in terms of the way we are addressing some of these big problems. And one of the biggest problems is patient agency. Because to this day, well, yes, you could say GPs half women, half men, but there's still a lot of men making decisions on our health. And I think if we could at least be very, you know, proud of the fact that we do it differently and be examples for our kids, boys or girls, that will change all of this because we all have that, you know, the men around us. So they need to watch this and need to be part of it and thinking about the changes that are happening. And I know they're seismic on both of your worlds. Um, but what do you wish that we would do faster, better? If you had the magic wand of thinkerbell, uh, what would it be that you would introduce that would be like, oh, I wish I had this right now, knowing what's coming? Whoever wants to go first, I'll ask uh Ashana's thinking, so I'm gonna ask Sandra.
Proving Patient Centricity
SPEAKER_00Sure. For for me in the world of obesity, when an organization says that they are patient-centric to really prove it. So I would like to see that they have embedded in their organization uh a patient, um a chief patient officer. So it is a person who has influence and sits at the table with marketing and innovation and procurement and trials and has a position of influence instead of what we often see, just a check mark or a token, or yeah, we spoke to the patient, check that to me, and to really mobilize this community to say, I'm not gonna just buy that you're patient-centric. Show me the receipts, show me the proof that you are.
SPEAKER_03I love that. And I can tell you honestly, I am so excited to see companies are starting to do this, and some of them are giant ones. Yes, it's is the people within those companies. The new way is we really need to put patient in the center. And from the beginning, when you launch a product, my experience is they come at the end. They meaning I don't know what they is really. It makes no sense, right? Yeah, that's changing. And I think hearing you say this, I if I could just I'm gonna take this one piece of what you said and keep on like repeating it to people that you know, Sandra says, and the reason it matters is it's not that because you want an award, because I can see how that has impacted everything with obesity in Canada, not just the people who are suffering from it, but also the physicians, their lives are easier, and also hopefully the company selling these drugs. So if they could just bottle what you said, uh my personal feeling is that will change everything. And they're not, um I said that one exciting thing. It's really uh one gazillion of the opportunity. Um, what about you, Shauna? What is it that I guess some I guess you could also say what people should stop doing, but is there something that you wish would happen faster to to basically push this agency that we're talking about with patients and people?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I'm gonna go with what's at the top of my head, but I think that patient centricity is really or really is about listening better. And patient agency is about letting go of control from the pharma's perspective or the company's perspective. And that is a much harder shift for sure. So, you know, I think there's um it's a almost a question of who's driving. And I think with the information and the tools and the availability of very tailored information that all of us as patients can receive, we are getting in the driver's seat. And, you know, I think we're driving our healthcare providers in some ways and probably need to be guided. Um, but we're driving what we want from pharma companies. Um, we are all patients at the end of the day. And I think it's really important for pharma to make that shift, though. Um, yes, there is going to be letting go of control, but I think we need to have that symmetry to be able to really meet patients where they're at authentically. And yeah, it's not a checkbox. We've failed if we haven't done that. So it's extremely important. And I think, yeah, for me, it's just making that shift toward yeah, following the patient's lead because they're the ones that that are living through this experience and challenge with their health. And we need to make sure we're meeting them where they are.
SPEAKER_03And I always catch myself use the word patient and go irk to myself because I remember when I worked uh many years in the area of multiple sclerosis, when I spoke to people with MS, they were always mad when I called them patients, and it was always people living with MS, people living with this.
Superpowers And Closing Thanks
SPEAKER_03We should really change our narrative on that. I constantly call myself patient one or whatever. So it's just so interesting. It takes a long time. But can I tell you, I mean, this is uh not gossip, it was uh recorded, JP Morgan, January of 2026, the president of a massive um obesity company literally said when asked why are your sales going down, uh you're losing to the compounders, all this stuff. He literally said, we really underestimated the consumer. And the question back was why? Well, when the drug is $100 versus $1,000 a month, people come out of the woodwork. And but it's beyond that. It's the fact that you should never have underestimated the consumer. And so that psyche, if other people are listening, will change. I really believe pharma is changing there, and it's to the benefit of everyone. Um, so I'm really excited because you actually defined it beautifully. I was trying to figure out how to define it. So um, I'm just gonna repeat what you said, Shauna. So patient um centric is that someone else is putting you in the middle when you have agency, you are driving. And so that control is what I think obesity matters was able to give back to people, maybe. Because sometimes patient advocacy groups don't give you control either because they're fighting market access. I'm like, why are you fighting market access? Just make it cheaper so I can buy it. Um, with just superpower, a superpower that I won't find on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00So this actually just got added to LinkedIn, but my superpower is I have dyslexia. So um I couldn't read a grade three. That's when they finally flagged it. And um, of course, I was not diagnosed because that was a long time ago, many, many decades ago. But what the gift that dyslexia gave me is that I have to problem solve, I have to figure out things without relying on reading and comprehension and writing. And so I was able to get really high marks in high school, and I was able to get a job at a consulting firm, having those things pretty much taken away from me and still be able to succeed in life.
SPEAKER_03That's amazing. I honestly did not think you were gonna say that. I have you have a gazillion superpowers, but that is so cool. Wow, it makes it helps me understand why you're so intuitive. You had to be. Shana.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if it's a superpower. What's coming? So turning ideas into reality, I think uh just pitching ideas to people and then bringing people together to provide and create innovative solutions. Um, so I would say that's mine. That is a huge superpower.
SPEAKER_03I call it you're a really good catalyst. I remember you take really complex things and you are able to influence internally to make it happen. That's not an easy thing to do. Like people talk, but your action, not just the talk. So I th I think that's amazing. Thank you both.
Share It And Stay Human
SPEAKER_03I had so much um, I had so much fun talking to you. I actually learned new things that I thought I knew you very well. So thank you so much for spending the time. And to everyone listening today, so thank you so much for being part of the thinker talk community. We love to celebrate founders like Shauna and Sandra, who really built with this grit, with heart, with a vision for this healthier, more connected future. If you enjoyed this, please share it with someone definitely.
SPEAKER_02Stay human, trail blends, talking, think a talk, take the lead. Founders investors, visionaries in the room. Think a talk, step in, find your crew.