Search and Rescue Mutual Aid
We bring together leaders from SAR teams across the country to discuss creative solutions to universal problems. From member retention to fundraising to team training - we’re all about bringing the community together and crossing county lines to elevate the SAR profession. Presented by Base Medical.
Search and Rescue Mutual Aid
103: Preventative Search and Rescue with Anna Marini and Meghan Twohig
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How can teams implement a PSAR program that reaches a wide audience and offers value?
Today we talk about all things Preventative SAR including how it helps communities, emboldens teams, and leads to better outcomes all around. Helping to educate your community can help your team build connections and put hard earned knowledge to good use. But where to begin? Our guests share some advice.
Today's Guests
Anna Marini: PSAR Coordinator at Joshua Tree National Park
Meghan Twohig: Vail Mountain Rescue Group, Colorado Hoist Rescue Volunteer Team, and Marketing, Partnership, and Training CalTopo
Introduction
SPEAKER_01Incident command to field team. Sending in mutual aid.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to SAR Mutual Aid, the podcast where search and rescue teams share lessons, tackle challenges, and find real solutions.
SPEAKER_03We bring together leaders from SAR teams across the country to discuss solutions to universal problems.
SPEAKER_02I'm Teal Harbin, Base Medical CEO, a wilderness paramedic nurse, and a SAR volunteer in New Mexico.
SPEAKER_03And I'm Lauren Skinechny, a wilderness EMT and SAR volunteer based in Portland, Oregon. Join us as we cross county lines to find new ways that you can empower and strengthen your team.
SPEAKER_01Presented by Base Medical.
SPEAKER_03Hi Teal.
SPEAKER_02Hey Lauren, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm I'm doing great. What do you have for me today?
SPEAKER_03I'm super excited to share the interview today that I did with Anna Marini from Joshua Tree National Park and Megan Tuhig, who I know from the series that we did earlier this year with Base Medical and Caltopo. And with Anna and Megan, we talk a little bit about preventative search and rescue or PSAR.
SPEAKER_02Oh, interesting. I've heard a little bit about PSAR. I haven't done much of PSAR, present preventative search and rescue. So I'm definitely curious to learn more about it and maybe how we can incorporate more into our team.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, they both had some really interesting thoughts about different strategies and different techniques that teams can use to build a program and why teams should consider making this a big part of what they do.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good. Yeah. Then I'm I'm curious. Cool.
SPEAKER_03All right, let's give it a listen.
SPEAKER_00This podcast is supported by Base Medical. With over 25 online courses designed for search and rescue, our SAR team subscription helps your team train smarter, stay consistent, and keep everyone on the same page. SAR skills and medical training together, all in one place. Learn more at basebedical.com.
SPEAKER_03I'm super excited to be here with two people who I've met this year. Um and I've I've really enjoyed getting to know and learning about the work that they're doing. So we've Anna Marini, the Preventative Search and Rescue Coordinator at Joshua Tree National Park, and Megan Tuhig, who works with Bill Mountain Rescue Group, Colorado Hoist team, and Cal Topo. So thanks both for being here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03So we're here today to talk a little bit about preventative search and rescue or PSAR. Um so this is a world that we all do a little bit of work in, um maybe sometimes without knowing about it. Uh but before we get into that, I just want to hear a little bit about how both of you got into search and rescue and involvement in your current team or your current role. Um so, Megan, let's go ahead and start with you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I uh I joined Vale Mountain Rescue Group based in Eagle County, Colorado, um in 2019. Uh for me, I had spent a lot of time in the backcountry, skiing, climbing, mountain biking, you know, all the things. And it's really important to me to volunteer and give back to my community. And I felt like I had a skill set that would allow me in search and rescue to give back in a unique way, particularly in a small mountain town as well as working with other teams in the state of Colorado. Um, I joined the Hoist, the Colorado Hoist Rescue Team two years ago. The Savan Mountain Rescue Group provides techs, um volunteer techs to work with the Army National Guard on the Blackhawks to do technical high-altitude um helicopter rescue. So I've been doing that with them for two years. And then yeah, I also work with a company, lucky enough to work with a company that um the our roots, Caltopa, our roots, are in search and rescue. So in my volunteer and professional life, I feel lucky um to kind of be involved in it in both those ways.
SPEAKER_03Awesome, cool. And Anna, how about you?
SPEAKER_04So I've been uh with the National Park Service for 10 years now. I just got a plaque. I was only a couple months to a year late, but you know, that's great. Uh I started off as a trail crew worker, somebody that just really enjoyed building trails, fixing trails, uh, and worked in a small national park, Big Bend, if you've been to West Texas. And in that kind of park, everybody needs to help each other. And there was a need for more search and rescue uh people to join the team. And uh I just said, hey, this sounds like fun. And uh it turns out I was good at it, and I kind of went up from there. And uh with my preventative search and rescue uh position here. Again, we're a smaller park at Joshua Tree. We don't have too many employees, so we all help each other, and so I'm a wilderness EMT now and um help run the search and rescue team here as well, which is uh a combination of both employees and volunteers. So I'm the person that teaches CPR and teaches tech and is one of our more experienced trackers. So um I don't want to say I'm a catch-all SAR person, but sometimes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel like that's pretty common in the SAR community too. People have to kind of uh wear a lot of different hats, and especially because we're often working in a volunteer capacity. Um, so not surprised. The people that can tend to get attracted to SAR are usually those kind of people that are up for that challenge. So um cool. Um and Anna, I'll stick with you. So can you define when we're talking about preventative search and rescue? What are we talking about? Um, like how do we define that term?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think um I I was just reviewing some of my volunteer applications for my team, and I asked them, what is search and rescue and that preventative side? What is what does that actually mean to them and what do they think the mission is? And I think um the baseline is really just education. Uh, and education can be in so many different forms from actually talking to people on trail to uh producing podcasts about it to, you know, writing up tips and tricks for blogs. And um, you know, there's so many different ways to educate, uh, both in person and in print. Um, and so I think it's the education of trying to help people have fun while they're outside and do it safely. Um, that sounds really simple, but that can make it or break it for somebody's experience in the outdoors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. Um, Megan, anything that you would add?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love I love what you said about education. Um, because all of us, like, no matter how much time you spent in the backcountry, we've been beginners. Um, even if you know you're finding a new way to explore the backcountry, you're a beginner. And there's like that whole fallacy of like you don't know what you don't know. Um, so I think the education piece is is so important in preventative SAR because everybody starts in that place um and doesn't know that stuff, and getting that information out there can really improve enjoyment and also like increase safety. Um, the other part I would add to that is I think I like to think of preventative SAR as also empowerment, um, you know, on top of that educational piece because it's enabling people to again kind of building off what you were saying, Anna, but to just like have the best possible time, but also come home in one piece and come home safely and help spread that knowledge to people around them as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I really like that um also pointing out that like you don't know what you don't know. I I think back to my first time backpacking where I was like, I'm someone who loves to be prepared and I follow the rules and like I really thought I was doing it right. And there were just so many things I didn't know in terms of like how to pack my backpack, the right kind of waterproof gear to bring, and you know, how the temperature might be different in the mountains. And it's not for lack of trying or wanting to know, it's just there was there was nobody who was the expert at identifying those things that can be high-risk behaviors and telling me. And as soon as I knew, I'm like, yes, absolutely, I want to be as safe as possible. But when someone is new uh at that entry point, I just think they don't always know what they should be thinking about. And so I think that's a really great kind of knowledge gap to be pointing at that needs to be filled.
SPEAKER_05And so many times you think you're talking to an expert, you know, but you're not. Like there's so many like opinions and levels of experience out there, especially when it's something new to you. You don't know um if you're getting that, you know, best practices and the right information from people, no matter how well-intentioned they are. Um, you can definitely hear some some questionable advice sometimes.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Um, yeah, and I think, and I'm interested to hear kind of your thoughts on that being in a park where I'm sure that you see a lot of people who are are maybe coming into the outdoors for the first time since national parks are such like a good entry point for people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and as you guys were talking about that, I was thinking about how I I couldn't safely step into Megan's world um with it being so cold and wintery, you know, a lot. Um, because I don't I don't do that. I don't live there. And so it's been a while for me. So talking to an expert would save me so much time, so much money, and um, to have to have that that this that forethought of what do I need that's different um than I normally carry in my pack for here, you know, we don't bring rain gear, like it doesn't, that doesn't really exist and things like that. So that's what I was thinking about and wanted to mention. Um, but yeah, we do have a lot of first timers. Uh Joshua Tree National Park is so close to LA and San Diego that we really see people that see really cool pictures online and just want to recreate that. And they don't know that it's a five-mile hike out to this one tree or you know, all those things. We don't usually put that in the caption of pretty photos. It's just like, you know, a showcase time. Uh so I think we really catch people um before uh before they get into something that they're not prepared for. But I also think a lot of people don't truly understand um the environment and how the environment versus what you want the experience to be are so different. Um if it's hot and you can't really control that temperature, you know, and we we're gonna see uh 110 to 115 at the end of this week. Uh so you really have to just change your entire plan um it to be able to enjoy and sometimes even survive. So I think finding uh ways to be able to educate folks on those simple tips um, you know, really, really help them to show up safely or change their plan when they're already here.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. Yeah, I also feel like um there has to be kind of an inherent like egolessness to doing this works. Um and I feel like oftentimes the judgment uh associated with when someone does make a mistake in the in the backcountry, even someone who's super experienced, but that results in an injury or getting lost or an incident. There can certainly be judgment. I see it online when people post about someone who's lost, you know, how could they do that? I can't believe that, blah, blah, blah. And I think that that makes people really hesitant to seek out answers or to feel like they're gonna ask a question that seems dumb. So I feel like uh having people do the work of like getting ahead of it and saying, like, hey, this is something that a lot of people don't know. That's okay. I'm here to educate you about it. I think is is super important. And so um, yeah, I think that like egolessness or or judgmentlessness uh is super important in the work too.
SPEAKER_04We have an unofficial saying in our work group uh leave your ego, bring your water. Uh and that's you know, we it's a good reminder sometimes.
SPEAKER_05We're not in the desert, but that totally works for the mountains too.
SPEAKER_03Cool. So uh I want to ask a little bit about um getting into some specifics of some of the work that y'all do. Um you're obviously in very different environments. So we have the desert, we're the mountains, uh, probably like avalanche, you know, snowpack and heat exhaustion, you know, sun exposure, those kinds of things. Um, what are some of the biggest problems you think can be mitigated uh with advanced education, specifically for like a SAR team? Um and I'll start with Megan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, I think I think some of the issues we deal with are probably really common across environments. Like one, you know, and it can be something as simple as um not splitting up. And I think that that is such a like it's so logical when you think about it when you're at home and you're like, well, why would we split up? You know, like we would, of course we would stay together and never leave my friends. But the number of missions we go on where you have a group and the conditions start to deteriorate, um, somebody is maybe struggling to keep up, uh, night is coming, there's weather, and the decision is made, like, and it you can tell when you talk to the people how logical it felt. Like, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna get help, like I'm gonna get to the car, and someone gets left up on a ridgeline in really dangerous conditions. Um, I think those issues are are like just you know, true, universal, um, true across environments and stuff like that. And it's something that's so hard, like it's so logical again when you're somewhere safe and warm and you're like, I would never do that. But then when you think about the stressors people are under when they maybe make these decisions, I think it's really important to educate um, you know, when people don't have those um pressing uh competing needs going on. So that's one I think again, super simple, but you can see like you just see we see it around here happen a lot. I don't know about you, Anna, but we see groups split up and yeah, some really kind of gnarly rescues that come out of that.
SPEAKER_04And sometimes, you know, what when we go back, that's labeled as a separated party for us. And um what happens is it's you know, people uh get scared and they immediately call for help, which is understandable, but then they find each other and they don't let us know that they did so. So then we go out anyway as a team expecting to find these people and they're already rescued and we didn't know that. Um, so that just like communication in general, too. I think um communicating with your with your your party, your friends that you're with, um, that really bleeds over into the communication with emergency services.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and we see that a lot here too when people set off avalanches, for example, in the winter. Um, nobody's caught, but there you've got these ski tracks going in for people who are around in the area, it looks to them like someone could have been. And we send teams into the field, potentially dangerous situations to go find if there's someone caught in there. And I think that doing education around the role of SAR teams, um, the role of emergency responders, and what you know, volunteers and pay professionals are putting themselves through is also really important because I think people do need to understand how that system actually works.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. That um, and that reminds me of uh the video that we did when Base Medical and Caltopa worked together on a preventative SARS series earlier this year about when to call for help. And I think that that actually like resonated with a lot of people. A lot of people engaged with that. Um, and I I liked that we kind of introduced the different levels that calling for help can introduce. You know, a lot of people might be hesitant that as soon as they call for help, it's gonna be a helicopter rescue, they're gonna have a huge bill and all these things. But um, I just really like that in that that uh Instagram video that you emphasized like just call. If it's maybe they can just give you advice. Um, you know, if you have the ability to have that two-way communication, there's a lot more things that you can learn just by making that call. So um, I think that even that just surprised people.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I think the way that those um, I don't know about your perspective, but when we did partner um with Base Medical on that SAR series or the preventative SAR series, the way it was received by the community and just how much people engaged with it to me just speaks to how like hungry people are for this information and how much they do want to get educated so they can have like a safe and a you know fun time out in the backcountry.
SPEAKER_04I think it's interesting that we, you know, the news is always full of this person got lost or this incident with an animal. You know, we don't really celebrate those stories of I went out on a hike and nothing happened, you know, um, because you know that that is scary and that's what's newsworthy, right? But um yeah, I think adding those those stories of of success and how to plan beforehand just really helps people trust in the process and and trust in themselves. Um, like you were saying, Megan, with um adding some more of that confidence. Um, because I want people to go out, um, even sometimes alone. And that's maybe a little taboo, but um, you know, I think there's ways to do it.
SPEAKER_03Totally. Yeah, I love that we should start having headlines of like hiking party makes responsible decision and turns back after their turnaround time has passed.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, let's do it. Hiking party does not suffer, stays together, gets pizza after the game.
SPEAKER_03Group friends out of water, goes home. That's it. Uh yeah, I see an Instagram series with that. Um, anyway, I think I think this all points to uh just kind of another important uh, you know, discussion point, which is like why? Why is preventative SAR important, not only from the perspective of the people we don't want to get lost and hurt, but for SAR teams as well. Um, so you know, we're all part of teams. It is exciting to go out on a call to rescue somebody to do the flashy things. Um, but deep down, you know, search and rescue teams are created to keep people safe and healthy and well taken care of. So um, yeah, I'm just curious a little bit about how within your communities and within your teams, how people react to that role of like more preventative, advanced education so that there's fewer callouts potentially. So I'll start with uh Anna on that.
SPEAKER_04That reminds me of um working in the Grand Canyon, and I did a lot of uh history kind of uh trying to gather the story of the beginning of PSAR there, and they started in the 90s, and I remember it was after a record SAR year. I can't recall the exact number, but after PSAR was started and it was successful, the SAR numbers significantly went down. And I remember hearing stories that the SAR team was pretty bummed, you know, they weren't out there doing the cool stuff anymore. Um, and honestly, I'm seeing that right now at Joshua Tree. Um, we had a robust all-volunteer team um uh uh quite a few years ago, and they were active for a long time. And then I started my program early 2021, and since then our numbers have significantly decreased. Yeah, there's a lot of factors in there like COVID and um you know different ways people are recreating, but um, I have the data to show that PSAR does work, unfortunately, and so we are getting getting less calls. Um, you know, and technology plays in with that too, of course. We have that that better technology out there, but um, you know, I think we try to remember and tell people, well, more people are having fun, you know, less people are getting hurt. And that's obviously we we don't, you know, we're always kidding when we say, you know, we wish there was more action, because that's that's that's crazy. But we do train a lot and we put a lot of effort into um, you know, our search and rescue practices, and um, it's nice to use them every once in a while, but it's always better when somebody's not hurt or. Lost to begin with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Megan, your thoughts?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think especially what I see on my team, you know, we recruit these amazing volunteers and they're hungry. You know, they they're they are there because they want to serve their community, they want to go out, um, they want to help people. But I always tell them, I'm like, it's some for you to get out and get to do search and rescue, like someone's having one of their worst days. Um, and the idea is we want less and less people to have their worst days. And like Yanna said, we want them to be having the best time uh and not calling us. Um, and so it's a weird thing, I think, to volunteer for. Um because yeah, to actually get to actually practice search and rescue, people are not having a great time. Um, but you're trying to show up and serve them in that. And I think one of the ways to funnel that energy and to funnel that experience and learning is into preventative SAR because it's such a service, and really, again, like we keep hammering home, but it's twofold. It's helping people to stay safe and helping them to get even more out of their experience back there. Um, so I think as much as you know, some people on my team get bummed when it's quiet, I love it. I'm all for it. You know, that's a good sign.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. And it I think it points back to that um that egolessness, right? And it's it's tough because it is, you know, a lot of people do get into it because it is exciting, and you know, maybe some of us are adrenaline junkies a little bit, but ultimately serving the community, yeah, means giving people the tools to do well. Um, and yeah, I do also like the idea of if it's a quieter season, things are a little slower, putting that energy into something that can really can really help people. And the truth is people are gonna get hurt and people are gonna get lost, and it happens to people that know everything about the outdoors. It it does happen. Um and so being able to put your resources to the the biggest needs, I think, is helpful too. Um like you know, teams don't have infinite time, infinite money, and I I don't know about um other teams around, but we've certainly seen a huge increase in calls in the last, I'd say, four or five months um compared to this time last year. So um it's nice to be able to put our energy and resources towards the the less preventable um calls, I think. Definitely. So yeah, I want to talk a little bit about what drew both of you to this work specifically, um, and then a little bit about like implementing programs um and getting them off the ground. So um I'll start with Anna if you want to talk about specifically preventative search and rescue, what what kind of you know drew drew you into that line of work um and then how did you get this program started?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I didn't know what this was when I signed up for it. Um I was a new EMT and I realized I really liked emergency medicine and I really liked search and rescue. And so I thought, okay, how do I do this as a job? Because that isn't really a thing. You know, there's not many paid search and rescue members. And I heard of the program in Grand Canyon, you know, the PSAR Rangers that were in the canyon and on the rim, um, operating the ambulances and handling medicals down in the canyon. I thought that was the coolest thing. Um, so I signed up. I got I got the job somehow. I applied uh through the government uh process, which can be a chore, but that's okay. Um, and I I arrived as a a new EMT ready to learn. And uh it turned out that reps on the ambulance and wilderness medicine um helped me grow tremendously in a very short period of time. Um, but the one part that I didn't really need any um kind of training in is that that education, that preventative side. It's natural for me to um open up a conversation with a park visitor and and say, um, you know, what's your plan today, you know, to help them um make the best time um that they can while they're while they're at this park or while they're visiting this certain site. Because we know that people save up sometimes years worth of money to visit this one place. And I want to make sure that they have have that, those resources. Uh so it just came natural to me. And unfortunately, it is kind of a hard thing for me to teach because it's so natural. Um, but it's really just finding somebody's why. Why are they here? Why are they wanting to hike this certain trail? What are they trying to see? And with knowledge, you're able to see it, say, oh well, yeah, it looks like you're trying to do this 10-mile trail, but if you do this two-mile trail just down the road, you're gonna see the same thing. Um, and so it's really helping people understand that they don't have to do what they're trying to do just because they're there. You know, there may be another option, or maybe it's better for them to come back the next day and start at a different time. Uh, so that's what we really try to work on here is finding somebody's why. Um, and that's really important to me. Um, and so I teach that to my volunteers and my seasonal employees. So thinking about uh starting a program, uh, the reason why Joshua Tree, you know, requested a program, uh, there was already uh an official program, you could say, through the SAR team, um, kind of getting out on trail whenever they could to talk with folks. Um, they needed a more robust program because there had been quite a few um incidents and fatalities that were heat related specifically. And so they decided, okay, we need to make this work. Um and so that's where I came in and uh use my knowledge from Green Canyon and my past experiences to make a program that worked for Joshua Tree. And now we have official volunteers out there on the trails, um, you know, educating people daily uh whenever we can get people out. But it seems like more and more volunteers want to join, which I'm so grateful for. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03Um, and what does like a typical day doing this work look like? Like what are the specific projects you're working on or the trainings that you're doing with your staff and volunteers?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so right now we're preparing for the busy season. Um, so I've been doing things like making schedules on a computer, which isn't super exciting, but I'm revamping our um right, our our volunteer handbook, for example, you know, to update from last year of the things that um I want people to have in hand or to have uh people ahead of time have ahead of time so they're prepared when they're out in the field. We have a little pocket guide of all the fun facts and educational needs for Joshua Tree, you know, updating that for the year. Um, but like I said, um part of that work that I'm involved in is our our medical side. So I'm scheduling all of our CPR classes, and that's not necessarily PSAR, but I think of it as PSAR because you're providing a training ahead of time so that when people do get on scene um with this type of emergency, they say, Oh yeah, I remember when Anna told me what a BVM was. Um so you know, all that kind of works together, but we are just wrapping, well, I shouldn't say just wrapping up. It's only August, but um it'll start to cool down maybe in October. Um so I that's just me being hopeful. Um, and so we're wrapping up the summer, thinking about okay, what's next? Um, and our busy season starts end of October or so and goes all the way through May. So it's really just training and getting people ready um and understanding that, you know, it was a it was a hot, hot summer, just like it always is, but it will cool down and we have to remember that it does get cold. So uh stocking up on my heat blankets and you know, emergency blankets, things like that, uh, just to make sure that we're ready to go. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03At this point we're packing both hyper and hypothermia kits when we go places because who knows? Um that's awesome. Uh Megan, I want to hear a little bit too about your kind of like day-to-day in the project that you're doing, um, a little bit on the Caltopo side, a little bit on your SAR team side. Um, so yeah, how do you kind of take some of this and implement it into actual projects?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um, well, on the Caltopo side, I think I feel really lucky to work with a company like Caltopo that's so mission-driven. Um, and I I don't know how familiar people are with the origin of Caltopo, but it was like originally started for search and rescue and to address the needs of search and rescue. Um, specifically Matt Jacobs, who founded the company, um, his like the way that he relaxes is literally search and rescue. Um, the man lives for like a big complicated search. Uh, and he originally created the program to like layer different maps together and change the transparency so you could compare, you know, the state park trails with global imagery, with you know, a topo map and and so on. And I think even to this day, we're we're a small company, but most of us are are still all SAR volunteers and really supported in doing that. And a lot of what we've talked about as a company is like um the importance, you know, of again, I say like mission-driven because we want to get that like preventative SAR messaging out, um, not only supporting like the SAR teams that use us, but also the recreationalists um who are going out and using us, how can we help spread that message and use our platform and our voice to get you know out messaging to help them stay safe and and have a good time in the backcountry? And also for us, respond like you're talking about Anna, like if something does go wrong, um, what are some things they can understand to help deal with the situation as first responders are coming? Um, so I have you know, working on like the marketing partnership side, um, work to kind of put together um these different campaigns that are really just focused on getting that messaging out and partnering with organizations like Base Medical this year. We partnered with some SAR teams last year, like Alpine uh in Colorado and um Ineo County in California. Um, again, just really focused on like what are the like if you could tell people one thing, what would it be to help them stay safe and how can we best get that out and amplify it? Um so you know, day to day when I'm kind of figuring that out and getting that out, it's working with those organizations, identifying that messaging, identifying the best way to deliver that. Um, for me, a big thing both at Caltopo and with VMR is figuring out where that audience is so that we can reach them. Because those people, that some of them come to you, but the best way to reach them is to find out where they are and go to them, which can be through email social media as well as through small events in the community. Um, so that basically day-to-day for CaltoPo is what I'm doing to try to get that messaging out. Um, which again is just to, you know, because of our SAR roots and because as a company, it's important to us that the people who use our platform, if they're first responders, are able to use it to help people in tough situations. And if the recreationalists um they know um, you know, where that help might be coming from and and how to best respond to it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think uh I I actually really like how yeah, Caltopo is kind of like the like embodiment of this uh approach where there was a tool that was created for professionals, you know, with a really kind of tactical uh usage in mind. And then it was like, hey, this could help people not need rescue. Like if you put these tools in people's hands, they can plan their route, they can make better decisions, they can have access. And you know, we mentioned technology a little bit earlier, but like that's a perfect example of like we don't need to withhold this this great access to knowledge and information, like get it out to people so they can actually plan ahead. It doesn't have to be exclusive for the professionals.
SPEAKER_05Uh exactly. Yeah, you can take the same tool and use it so many different ways, but to the same end in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_03So I want to ask a little bit just about some of the challenges that you face with like getting messages out and and whether that's like to uh recreationalists and and people out on the trail um and their receptiveness or or you know not being able to kind of identify the the problems that they're encountering, or organizationally, you know, if you've run into any challenges kind of like sh demonstrating the uh effectiveness and and importance of something like preventatives are. Um so Megan, I'll stick with you on that. Any challenges that you found?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think I kind of alluded to it earlier, but it's like finding where the people who need to hear the message are and reaching them in a way where they're receptive to it. Um we've talked a lot about ego. Um, you know, it's it's like reaching them where they're receptive to like receiving that message. And again, we're not making it punitive. Um, we're not making it like judgmental or like talking down to people because it's about in my mind, empowerment in education. So definitely finding those people and reaching them in a way where they can receive that message, I think, is one of the biggest challenges, and something that we have found both at VMR and at Caltopo, but I can talk about like Bale Mountain Rescue Group, um, is partnering with organizations that already have that audience. Uh so for example, like I personally am passionate about being involved with getting um women in our community, like helping to educate them, helping them, because in my own like backcountry, you know, experience, I can distinctly remember when I went from I don't like followers not the right word, but like where I went from like just being like a passenger, like someone would tell me what hike we're doing and how long it is, and like what the weather's like and whatever. I can distinctly remember when I kind of went from being that person who's just following along in the background to then being the person who's like, here's the hike I want to do, here's the weather and my concerns with it, like who's carrying, like what type of like inreach or you know, safety equipment or whatever. Like, and I want to be the person who can help make that shift, um, specifically for women, but for all different kinds of groups in the community. And so, Vale Mountain Rescue Group, we've started partnering with um a local nonprofit called the Gore Ange Gravity Alliance that's really focused on getting women into the backcountry, into the outdoors, and we do a lot of um kind of safety talks, preventative SAR navigation classes with them to help them kind of make, in my mind, make that switch from just going along with their partners to them being the person who's taking on more leadership and and being more in charge. And I think what helps that to be successful is the fact that we're working with this organization they already trust, that they're comfortable in. Um, and that organization brings us in and that we've already kind of got that buy-in because we've got the support of an organization they trust and they're with. And I think that has been really helpful for us to overcome that and to meet them where they're at and help um them kind of take that next level and get that messaging out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's awesome. And and I think that goes back to a conversation we had a little bit earlier about like you don't know what you don't know, and that sometimes, you know, populations or people who haven't traditionally been, you know, brought up with the outdoors as part of their life or you know, have have been made to have not been made to feel totally safe in the outdoors, maybe don't know where to go to get that information, right? They don't know where that first step is, and so I think that's such a great example of like no one's gonna come find us. So, how can we get out there and find them and empower especially those groups to make a safe entry into the outdoors? That's awesome.
SPEAKER_05And we love our SAR super fans, like they show up, they support us, like in our community, they're amazing, but they've heard it all. And how do we again reach those people that aren't necessarily getting um that information, but they they are interested, they want to be out there and they want to do it safely and and have a good time.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. That's a great initiative. Um, Anna, how about on your side? Any challenges that you've run into in in trying to get this kind of message and approach out?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I had two thoughts uh as we were talking, or as I was listening rather. And um, the first one is that I teach my my PSR crew to not judge ahead of time. Um, I think the classic one is oh, they're wearing flip-flops, they don't know what they're doing. Um, I hike in sandals sometimes, you know, I'm very comfortable in them. Uh, and I remind them of that. And I said, you can't judge somebody by the way they look or what they're carrying. That conversation, that actual back and forth is really key to learning about people and and what uh what they know and what they don't know and what they want to know. Um, so I think making sure you're approaching people in a way that they want to engage back with you and not uh uh immediately judging somebody. I think that's that's something that's really important to me because we all look different when we go out and hike. Um my favorite uh example of that is um one of our best, most amazing rangers in the canyon. Um, you know, would their face would turn red, they were huffing and puffing a little bit. Um, and people would ask them, like, oh, are you doing okay? And they're like, Oh, I just hike 20 miles. You know, it's like the uh you don't know exactly what's going on. Um, and then the other piece is uh I I think what's really hard with everybody is they don't think XYZ is gonna happen to them. They don't think um their diabetes is gonna exacerbate on the trail. They don't think that um they're the ones that's gonna get lost or uh oh, I'll I'll never you know be out past dark or whatever the situation is. Um I come across that a lot. And it's hard to teach people or to encourage them to plan when they're in that mindset. Um something that I do that's kind of interesting is we have quite a few one mile trails in our park. Um and if it's appropriate day, if it's nice out, um if we kind of have a good back and forth and they say, Oh, I don't need any water, it's just a mile. Um, I I let them go. I want them to feel a little thirsty. And that sounds pretty scary. Um, but I follow it up with hiking behind them, not not creepy, but um I follow, I hike, I hike a little, you know, behind them and and check in. And then more often than not, halfway through, they're saying yeah, you were right that I should have brought water. Um, and nothing happened to them, right? It was a good experience. So now they know for the next time. Um, you know, or I tell them this is what I would do, or um, this happened to me. And if I'm able to say the one time that um I didn't know if I was gonna get out of the canyon or not on a personal hike because it was too hot and all these things happened, if they hear that from a park ranger who's supposed to be an expert, um, maybe it'll, you know, bleed over into them to think, whoa, maybe something could happen to me. So I don't ask people to suffer, you know, I don't want that to happen. Um, but I think a little bit of experience in that realm of making mistakes does help. Um, you know, I learned the hard way of wearing the wrong shoes on a backpacking trip. You know, there's so much gear literacy that we have to work towards um to help people find what works for them. And as women, nothing fits us, so that's a challenge. Um, but we do get the pink and blue colors, so that's neat. Uh but right. I think I so I I like to kind of think about those two things when I'm thinking about the challenges. Um, because that's a hard thing to talk about, you know, people yeah gathering experience, sometimes the hard way isn't always fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that reminds me a lot of how I sometimes just have to parent my preschooler. Uh sh I'm not she's not gonna take no for an answer. So I'll be there when she falls off, you know, when she's climbing too high, I'll catch her. Uh, but that's the best way to learn. So yeah, I feel like we're providing a safety net, uh, providing all the tools, but ultimately it's up to people to use those tools. So um, you know, whatever we can do to uh incentivize it for sure.
SPEAKER_05And I love I love too what you said, Anna, about um the like learning things the hard way. And I think uh do for SAR volunteers and professionals and when we're doing PSAR, we have to remember like we've all the lessons we all have learned the hard way. Um, like people ask me a lot, like, how do I learn to like navigate and like plan a route and stuff? And I was like, well, you screw it up a bit, and you you'll realize like, oh, like I could have made this change or that change, and it's that hard-earned knowledge. And I think I love what you said about just like making it real, the fact that we're all doing this, and it really is a practice, like you don't just know exactly everything to do, you're always learning and always growing. Um, whether you're the person who is the park visitor or you're the PSAR, you know, coordinator, like you're learning and improving your practice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I love also um, and what you said about like, you know, being a ranger and that coming with a certain amount of like um, you know, authority or or an aura to it of like this person must absolutely know everything and showing a little bit of vulnerability makes people feel a little bit more welcome. Um when I was guiding, I would do that a lot. Like I would, I would pretend that I had a hot spot so I would stop and address my blister so everyone else would, or you know, I would say, like, I need a break, I need to do layer, and just modeling some of that like good decision-making behavior. And and when people see someone who like knows what they're doing doing that, they're like, Okay, it's okay to be a little vulnerable, it's okay to make these adjustments for myself. So it's super important. Cool. I just kind of want to wrap it up with um just some advice on what organizations can do that potentially would want to start a program like this. So whether that's a SAR team or any other kind of local community group or a hiking group. Um, so Megan, I'll start with you. Like, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to an organization who's looking to get a preventative SAR program off the ground?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think, well, we've had a preventative SAR team from before I joined, um, and actually that is headed by like it's under our um public information officer. Um, so she coordinates like a team of of three. Um, and I think that's one of the biggest things is is having a group of people to build that program so it's not all on the shoulders of one person. Um, I think it's also important to identify what you think the most pressing issues in your area um are. You know, we're talking a little bit about like the mountain, the Rocky Mountains versus Joshua Tree, um, and what you might be specifically addressing there. Um, one thought that comes to mind here is we've got a mountain called Mount of the Holy Cross, and we just kept having people they climb up the North Ridge, come back down, and head straight into the Cross Creek drainage instead of back to the trailhead. And they put a sign there, the Forest Service and the SAR team, and all it said was just like this way, and it made a huge difference. Um, and but that's such a local issue. So, you know, identifying those issues and figuring out how you can address them. And then again, I'm a huge proponent of figuring out who you can partner with to get that messaging out. You know, the Holy Cross example, that's a sign on a trail. Um, so it's right where the hikers are going to be, and that's who you want to meet. Um, but if you're more concerned with maybe reaching backcountry skiers, maybe partnering with a local um with that with the local Avalanche forecasting organization um or a backcountry ski club or something like that, um, in order to meet those people where they are. Um, instead of trying to get them to come to you, you go to them with the messaging um that you think is most important and most relevant uh for them to receive.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Cool, Anna, how about you?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's good. Um, I I was my first suggestion was look at the data. Um, where there's gotta be some commonalities in there where when I first got to Joshua Tree, unfortunately we were kind of bad at data, but um I found the two highest SAR trails and figured out why, you know, and and some of it just needed a little bit more signage, like you mentioned. Um, but that's how I knew where to put people. If if I was gonna have volunteers to go out, um, I wanted them to be at the places where we either had a lot of issues with search and rescues or the heaviest um, you know, population of people trying to gather people where they're at, like you like you mentioned. Um, you know, so that data has really, really helped me over the past couple years to see, oh, this trail is actually more of just a fun trail, you know, for volunteers to visit sometimes. Not many accidents happening or incidents happening there, or it sure seems like the sign is working at this location. Um, and then something else we worked on is um a trail analysis. Uh, I have a small team of volunteers that go out after search and rescue to the coordinate, you know, that they were lost at or whatever happened, and they could see, oh wow, this step really needs replacing, you know, this is potentially where they fell. Um, or yeah, they totally missed that sign back there. Um, we should, you know, get some people together to fix this or put in a work order, whatever it may be. Um, so actually going out and analyzing some of our biggest SARS to see what happened. Um, sometimes it's as easy as replacing a bolt, you know, on a climbing wall, but um, sometimes it takes possibly some work to reroute a trail or to redo signage. Um, but I think kind of doing that investigation is really fun. I like it because I like finding the why. Um, but that is, I think, a big part of it. Um, and then I think uh, as you guys know as volunteers, supporting the volunteers that do the work are are so important. It's so it's so important to be able to do that. My volunteers, I've I have 30 of them on my team. Um I I don't want to brag too much because it sounds like I'm shooting my own horn, but they love volunteering for me. I check in with them, you know, I help them with their schedules, I go out and see them, I gather the supplies that they need to do the job. Um, you know, I take care of my people. And and that's really important. So whether that's, you know, setting up a monthly meeting, you know, for people to gather and ask questions and provide feedback, which is so important, I think listening to everybody that's involved and everyone's experiences, um, you know, like we talked about, we all come from different backgrounds and somebody um may just be able to make a database for you. And wow, that would save me a ton of time because I don't know what I'm doing. Um, so I think keeping people engaged um as you start a program is really helpful and important. Awesome.
SPEAKER_03Cool. Are either of you working on anything exciting that you want to uh want to tell people about? Any new projects, any new initiatives?
SPEAKER_04I I just wrapped up um an official risk assessment um on a certain trail to be able to identify the hazards to see if there's any additional mitigations we could do or or what could come from that. And it was actually deemed that um we needed to close the trail. There was no additional mitigations that we could do to be able to make this safe at this location in these summer temps. So now it's going to be an official closure every summer. Um it's one of our biggest SAR trails, it's one of the biggest places that people come unprepared and it's not safe for the visitors, for the responders, or the volunteers that are trying to PSAR. So I feel pretty proud about that. Um, that I went through the proper channels, you know, and it's hard to close something, but it's it seemed to be the the best option.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and yeah, I guess going back to like that uh the headline about the things that of people just having a great day, there's probably gonna be a ton of people who maybe would have gone on that trail, had a miserable time, but who now have to make a different choice and are gonna have a much better experience. So yeah, you have to be reminding yourself of that when you're when you're doing this kind of work, I think, because you you probably won't get a lot of thank yous, but you should.
SPEAKER_04I do keep a wall of thank yous though, to not that I have that many, but it really does help me when I look back at that and say, Okay, you're right. I I do this for a reason, it's for you guys.
SPEAKER_03So well, thanks both for taking the time to do this. Um, I think it's important to be drawing attention to this side of the gig of search and rescue, the education and the empowerment. And I just think you're two just incredibly thoughtful, hardworking people, and I'm just really excited to be able to highlight you a little bit and some of the work that you do.
SPEAKER_05Thanks, Lauren. Thank you so much. This is a great conversation.
Base Medical
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I agree. I'll see you both soon.
SPEAKER_01In SAR, you're expected to deliver professional care, which is why every responder should at least have a wilderness first aid certification. Base Medical offers the only wilderness first aid and first responder courses built for search and rescue. Get your SAR WFA or re-certify your WFR with live instruction online from anywhere and for half the cost, or become a base medical instructor to deliver training to your team in person. Learn more at base-medical.com.
SPEAKER_02That was amazing. I feel like I learned so much more about just the value of preventative search and rescue. I feel like it could also give teams a lot more purpose and maybe a good outlet for a lot of the skills that may be underutilized at times or some of the members that do want to be more involved beyond just trainings and missions. That was wonderful. It was also just so endearing to hear Anna's voice and Megan and just you know, makes me miss them a whole lot. Uh, I also loved the I think we should post some articles about when a team does when a group does everything right and search and rescue isn't called.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Let's celebrate some good decision making. Yeah, no, I think um it is such a great way to utilize resources when yeah, people aren't on a mission or or you know, actively participating in something. It's just a really great way to use that energy and that knowledge and that like huge skill set that's just sitting there for the betterment of the outdoor community and to make it more accessible for people too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, and also I think there's something that continues to come up with each podcast interview that we've done that uh I'm noticing that we do mention PR and building public awareness for a team and how important that is for so many reasons. And I think preventative search and rescue is such a good way to accomplish that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. It shows that value to the community and can just like give a good reason to go out and and meet people and talk to people and and let them see who you are. Yeah. Yeah. So I I really want to thank Anna Marini and Megan Toohig again to just to absolute rock stars, a couple people that we're really glad to have in our base medical community this year. And thanks to you, Teal. And hopefully we'll see some good news articles out there soon about some good decisions.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, everyone.
SPEAKER_03Thanks. SAR Mutual Aid is produced by Lauren Skinechny and Teal Harbin and presented by Base Medical. To learn more, go to base medical.com.