Search and Rescue Mutual Aid

108: Funding Rescue and Charging for SAR - with Scott Solle, Carrie Lee Gagnon, and Colin Williams

• Base Medical • Season 1 • Episode 8

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How can teams fund resource intense rescues? Should we be charging for SAR?

Teams have the drive, skills, and training to keep people safe in the outdoors, but all rescues cost money. When traditional fundraising methods - which are labor and time intensive - fall short, how can teams make up the difference? Today, we're talking about the future of SAR and getting creative.

Today's Guests

Scott Solle: Vice Commander of Grand County SAR (Moab, Utah)

Carrie Lee Gagnon: Executive Director of King County Search and Rescue Association (KCSARA)

Colin Williams: King County 4x4 Search and Rescue

SPEAKER_01

Incident command to field team. Sending in mutual aid.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to SAR Mutual Aid, the podcast where search and rescue teams share lessons, tackle challenges, and find real solutions.

SPEAKER_03

We bring together leaders from SAR teams across the country to discuss solutions to universal problems.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Teal Harbin, Base Medical CEO, a wilderness paramedic nurse, and a SAR volunteer in New Mexico.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm Lauren Skineschni, a wilderness EMT and SAR volunteer based in Portland, Oregon. Join us as we cross county lines to find new ways that you can empower and strengthen your team.

SPEAKER_01

Presented by Base Medical.

SPEAKER_03

Hi, Teal. Hey Lauren, how are you? I am doing great. I hear that we have some exciting updates from Base Medical that I'd love for you to share.

SPEAKER_02

What's going on? Well, yes, we do indeed. So we recently interviewed Moose Mutlow about the Family Liaison Officer Program that he has created and has been successful at implementing into the community. Well, his course is now available on the base medical website, the learning platform. So teams can purchase it if they would like for their members or individuals can access it. But uh, this is super exciting. And then we're also going to be publishing the end of the month Wilderness CPR, which I am beyond thrilled. And it has been a project that we've been working on for well over a year, maybe maybe longer. Um, and I do think it'll be impactful because obviously, as you know, everything you learn in a standard urban CPR class completely goes out the window whenever you're in the wilderness. And then how does the SAR team actually go about conducting CPR and managing return of circulation on a patient? And yeah, so I think it'll I think it'll do a lot of good. What do you have for me?

SPEAKER_03

Um that's yeah, that's super exciting. Um, and a great example of just how the podcast has been kind of opening connections and opening doors since we started last year. Um, so it's super exciting to be a part of that, super exciting to be meeting so many people like Moose. And on that note, this conversation that I'm gonna share with you today is a great example of some cross-team conversations that have opened up some new doors. So I approached our three guests to discuss a little bit about how resources are allocated in search and rescue and some of the challenges that come with that in terms of how that's funded. So traditional fundraising methods aren't always the easiest to manage. They're very labor intensive. And so there's been ideas thrown around about charging for SAR, different models for that. I know, hot topic. Um, and so I invited uh three folks Scott Sauley from Grand County Search and Rescue in Utah. So they work around the National Parks in Moab. Um, Carrie Lee Ganyon, who's the executive director of King County Search and Rescue in Washington, and Colin Williams, who's on the King County 4x4 specialty team, to have a conversation about that. And it turned out to be just a really awesome conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, I am so excited. And I love Carrie Lee. She's given me so many ideas on how we can potentially fund SAR in New Mexico. And so I am I am very excited. Uh I want to hear this conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome. Well, let's jump right into it then. Let's give it a listen.

SPEAKER_07

In search and rescue, you're not just a volunteer, you're a professional. Your team and your community expect you to deliver. That means being ready for more than patient care. You need skills in navigation, communication, helicopter safety, and incident command. With Base Medical, you can train like a pro. Our individual subscription gives you unlimited access to over 25 search and rescue courses for just $12.50 a month. Or choose our team subscription to standardize training across your entire team. Stay sharp, stay ready, learn more at base-medical.com.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome everybody. I am very happy to be here with a great crew for our discussion today. With me today, we have Scott Sauley, who is the vice commander of Grand County Search and Rescue in Moab, Utah. We also have Carrie Lee Ganyon, who is the executive director of King County Search and Rescue Association in Washington, and Colin Williams, who is a board member and secretary of King County 4x4 Search and Rescue, and also the Deputy Vice President of Operations there. Welcome everybody. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_00

Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome. So today we're talking a little bit about funding for search and rescue. So some of the things that we're going to be talking about are, you know, what costs are associated with rescues. We're working in very different parts of the country. So how that looks specifically for our teams and generally for the search and rescue community and different ways that teams have approached managing those expenses and those costs to make sure that we can continue to offer our service to the community. Before we dive into that, I would love to just hear from each of you a little bit about how you got involved with search and rescue and what drew you to it. So why don't we go ahead and start with Scott?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. I started teaching swift water rescue in the 90s. And then really, in order to be a good swift water instructor, you need to have a pretty thorough background with rope view. I was a ski patroller. And then when I moved to Moab, there was a large search for a snowmobiler that had gotten buried. And I figured I had some skills that I could help with our team. And I joined search and rescue and was able to I guess uh apply those sorts of skills, avalanche, swift water, rope, and rescue disciplines along the way. And uh uh I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_05

Awesome. And Carrie Lee, how about you? Well, I am actually not on one of the active member units. Um I was hired two years ago as the executive director for Kassara. Uh previously I was an active duty member of the Coast Guard. Um I've loved everything to do with search and rescue since I was 14 years old and I joined Calgary Search and Rescue up in Alberta. Um and after leaving the Coast Guard, I had a a desire to get back into that, into that space and to support people that do really important work. And I enjoy the camaraderie. Um, I enjoy the challenge of a of um working within a nonprofit space. And, you know, they're a lot of fun to work with. So that's uh when this job came open, I threw my name in the hat and I'm just lucky enough that they they said yes. Awesome. And Colin, what about you?

SPEAKER_06

Uh I loved volunteer and I volunteered for a few years and then got out of it, and I was out of it for a few years looking for something to volunteer, some way to give back. I don't honestly remember how I stumbled across search and rescue. I think it might have just been searching the web or something. And I saw a King County 4x4 search and rescue, and it seemed to dovetail really perfectly with my passions. I didn't realize just how well. And it was basically helping others driving and the outdoors. So uh threw my name in the hat and said, Hey, I'll join. Uh, got involved in it, like I say, it ended up dovetailing with way more of my passions. I've basically been able to exercise almost all of them all in one shot. So uh it was kind of just by chance and been absolutely amazing since.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome. Cool. Now I'm really excited that we have, again, folks from kind of pretty vastly different parts of the country here. Um, with Scott out in Moab and then uh Carrie Lee Collin and myself here in the Pacific Northwest. Um, one thing I would like to talk about is just a kind of the types of rescues that you're seeing for your team. Scott, your your team down there has a great podcast as well called Back from the Beyond. I've listened to a few of those episodes, and they seem like very resource-heavy and diverse types of rescue because of how kind of vast your um your the area that you you serve is. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of rescues that you see down there in Moab and what sorts of resources are allocated to those?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. The uh you know, the whole area of Moab is just a really diverse sort of place to recreate. Uh there's, you know, off-road enthusiasts, there's mountain biking, we have uh two major rivers that uh are in our actually, three major rivers that are in our county. There's a mountain range that approaches 13,000 feet. So we see snowmobiling and skiing, there's people hiking, um, there's a lot of climbing. We have a a base jumping, um, kind of a base jumping festival every fall. So the majority of what we do is we rescue people who are out hiking. And then from there, like kind of the mountain biking and off-road community is is kind of second and third, and then there's all these little uh other types of unique rescues. We have a uh a medical helicopter, uh Bell 407, that's here at our EOC. It's a private organization, but they donate their time uh to to help shuttle rescuers. Um we utilize uh UTVs uh heavily to get us as far as we can into the backcountry before we you know hike with our litter and wheel. We've got snowmobiles and argos for in the winter time in the Alpine, uh snowy terrain. We've got a fleet of we've got uh five different boats. And and then beyond that, I guess it's just you know, four by four trucks. So, and then people and lots of people.

SPEAKER_03

Uh yeah. Yeah, that was one thing that struck me listening to uh some of the stories of of the rescues in your county is the resources that are needed just to get to the subjects. Um, like you mentioned, helicopters are often potentially bringing rescuers on site to get them, you know, close to the subject and able to access a lot more quickly. Um, and that's certainly something that I think people don't always think about. Uh you know, they think, oh, the rescuers are gonna come and get me, but right, how are they gonna get there is an important question. Um, and Colin, I'm interested to hear on your end too, especially being on the four by four team. Um, what does that look like for you? What kind of rescues are you seeing and what kind of resources do you use to execute those?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. So it was interesting hearing Scott talk and the parallels in many regards. So certainly across our organization, across Casara, the vast majority, similarly, is we've got hikers that just uh most common is a lower leg injury, some something where it's a rolled ankle, sprained ankle, fractured ankle. Um, that's the most common, something relatively, in the grand scheme of things, relatively minor. It's a bad day for them, but go up, pack them into a litter, roll them out. Um, in the case of King County, where we've got Seattle, you know, it's a three million, three to four million people metro area in within an hour's drive at the Cascades, it's a lot of people who are not super duper outdoorsy and they're going up a trail, and and that's where that happens. So that's the majority of our missions. But probably the second most of that, most interestingly, is actually urban search and rescue. It's we're not actually up in the mountains. We're down looking for a person with dementia who has walked away from their home and um and is out on a cold night. Uh, we had this literally just what yesterday and the day before we ran overnight. Um, we get autistic children who have walked away and we have to go find them. So vulnerable populations. Um that's probably our next most frequent um is actually urban. Um on the four by four side, we pick up some of the ones where it's somebody drove into the woods. We had one earlier this uh um uh this year already, where somebody drove into the woods, they were unprepared when it came to tires, they weren't prepared to camp the night, and they got stuck in some snow uh somewhere along the way. So we go up there and our number one priority is save the people. But if we can do an easy extraction of the vehicle, then hey, bring the vehicle out too. Um so similar to Scott, all the all sorts of resources. Probably one of the biggest differences is we don't do uh water rescue here. That's handled by the sheriff's office, um, not by search and rescue, not by the volunteers. So that's out of our wheelhouse, but uh the sheriff's office does have uh a helicopter rescue helicopter. We also call upon uh the Navy uh would be island SAR to come out and assist us if the our county's helicopter isn't available in Stahomish County to the north of us pitches in a lot too with their helicopter.

SPEAKER_03

So, Carrie, you've been involved in search and rescue for quite a long time. Um, you said the age of 14, you joined uh your first team. I'm curious on your end, if you've seen any change in either the volume or types of rescues, just generally in the search and rescue community with more tourism. You know, both Scott and you and Colin are pretty close to urban areas where people can access the outdoors relatively easy, uh relatively easily. Um, have you seen either people going out less prepared, more prepared? How have you seen that change?

SPEAKER_05

Well, doing search and rescue up in Alberta, we have the Rocky Mountains and we don't you have to drive out into Canonaskis um country to recreate um to the to the same degree that you see in the Cascades here. So there's, I mean, there is a difference there. Um we actually participated in a rural tourism work group um over a period of 18 months to to talk about that very thing um and and understand the influence that um legislation has on tourism. So when you do outdoor access for all, how does that phrasing, how does that wording affect the way people view recreation? Um, you have changes in in physical changes in access, so paving of roads that take them further into these spaces. Um if someone can drive there, it it kind of changes the way they they think about their proximity to safety, even if they're driving into a more remote area. We were taking a look at what uh so there's 600 plus volunteers over the seven member units in King County. Um and when you take a look at the volume of tourism just in 2024 alone at during during those heavy um uh recreational months over the summer, it's one volunteer is responsible for you know sixty-five thousand tourists. It's it's not skewed in their favor when you take a look at the sheer volume of tourism that's coming into this space. Um and that is something we need to take a look at is the the the the um the marketing and the the influence that businesses and um and cities have on tourism and recreation and what that does to the volunteers who are, you know, the backstop of safety um in that space. So yeah, definite, definite changes and shifts in in the way people view outdoor recreation for sure.

SPEAKER_03

Hearing that number is really startling because you you have it, you know, you hear kind of uh broadly, oh, there's a lot of people out, lots of tours and tourism has increased in these areas. And and Scott, I'll hear from you in a minute, because I know that's uh specifically the case in Moab, but actually hearing the numbers is really staggering, really helps you kind of visualize, you know, uh the the the how the resources are are spread so thin. Um but yeah, Scott, I'd love to hear. Uh I know that tourism in Moab has just exploded in the last uh decade or or so, but yeah, I'd love to hear what your experience has been observing those changes as well.

SPEAKER_00

Uh we're we're definitely seeing more visitation. You know, our uh our county commission is actively trying to, you know, promote tourism and and and bring people to Moab to sp to spend money. I mean, we've got two national parks in our in our county here, and you know, they have their own uh park service search and rescue, but I want to say there's a couple million people that are visiting those national parks, and they're not just going to the national parks. I mean, we're surrounded by uh BLM land and forest service land, uh, so there's a lot of open space to recreate. Uh we're we're just seeing more and more calls every year. And the cause maybe of seeing more rescues is that the technology is out there, one, to make calling for rescue a lot easier, but there's also all this like uh stuff on social media or on the internet. You can find information to go to places now very easily. And I think people read that, they they they feel it's you know, it seems really easy maybe, and they they don't have the experience behind that uh r type of recreation maybe that 20 years ago you would have needed needed to have to to access those those places.

SPEAKER_05

Washington Trails Association, fantastic organization. They and they rate the trails. Um, but we went into a conversation because we were looking at communication strategies that kind of um uh would cross-pollinate amongst the the different organizations that have are outdoor adjacent. Um and one of the things we've begun to see is that people see a rail a trail rating of like difficult, but then someone posts on social media and they're like, well, that person looks like me. Like I can do it. Um and so uh we've we've explored and actually this April, we're looking at a way to make because we can't, we can't rate the trails. We're we don't have the that's not within our scope, but um, we can make it more relatable. Like um we were taking a look at you know, the Simpson characters. If you are a Marge, you might be able to do this. If you, you know, if you're uh, you know, make it funny, relatable, something that sticks in their head. So it's not um this this um this misperception that they, you know, they have these skills and ability just because they saw someone say, you know, it's not as hard as it looks. You know, that's that doesn't help anybody when it comes to the ability to do do the do the hike.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, there's there's so many factors when it comes into being prepared for an outdoor activity, right? And this was um a lot of my experiences is in guiding over the last you know decade and a half, and this has been a challenge perpetually, right? How can you communicate something that is pretty subjective in a way that can be universal and that doesn't scare people away from wanting to go in the outdoors, but also doesn't send people out unprepared or or with improper expectations. And it's a really, a really tricky balancing act. Um, and so I just love, yeah, when folks are kind of thinking of dynamic ways and new and interesting ways to get that communication across because it is incredibly important. Um so yeah, we've talked a little bit about how we've we've seen an increase right in the challenges of just that, making the outdoors accessible, but also making sure that we're not sending people out for things that they may not be prepared to do and not really setting them up for success. Um and I think, Scott, it's really interesting that you brought up just the ability to call for help, right? Now we have our cell phones have satellite. Um, a lot of folks can, you know, access uh previously what only someone with maybe an in-reach device or a different satellite device could, um, which could lead to more calls, which can be a good thing, but also means more resources. So I'd love to hear, Colin, on your end, um, when a call comes in, uh, if you have any insight into how are how are resources alloc allocated and what kinds of resources might have to go out on a call that people might not realize.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, that's a that's a great point. So the for King County, we're a little bit different in the sense that we are broken up into our member units, that we have seven different units and they're roughly organized by specialization. So a first-level decision is by our search match coordinator after he gets the um the call through 911 dispatch and everything else. Uh, he needs to choose which units to if to initially engage. And for many of them, it's hey, everybody. For some missions, though, it's like, hey, I want just this one or just these couple, depending on the nature of it. If it's a vehicle stuck in the snow on a forest road, he's only gonna call upon the 4x4 unit, which is 4x4 vehicle based, and RSVU, which is ATVs and side by sides and snowmobiles. He's only gonna call upon them. He's generally not gonna call upon the ground folks or the the mountain climbers. Um vice versa, if we, you know, if it's at night in the middle of winter and it's therefore super quiet and it's up a trail that you can't get a vehicle or an ATV up, okay, he's probably only gonna call upon uh the ground folks and the and the mountain climbers because you're not getting a side-by-side up a you know three foot wide trail. That's just not gonna happen. Um so that's the first level of decision. The next level is then the units who are engaged have to decide, okay, how many people are we sending? What equipment are we sending? Do we want a full command man and we just want to pick up truck that we can run a light command out of? Um and I think something that people really probably the biggest thing people don't think about, and we hear this constantly with when it comes to rescues, is The sheer volume of people needed. Uh, you know, people have an ankle injury up on a not overly difficult trail, then they're two miles up and they think, you know, a lot of them are thinking in their minds it's like, oh, there's not that many, and then 20 to 30 people show up, and it's kind of like that's not that insane of a response to have 20 to 30 people. Could we get it done with five or 10? Yeah, we probably could. Having the safety margin, having that extra capacity to do it right and make sure that we can account for any un anything unexpected to run a litter for a couple of miles, like it matters. So the logistics involved for that level of equipment. And then when you start bringing in now, we need a command and command van, now we need a driver for that command van and the maintenance involved in that. And it's like, oh, because we actually want that command van because it's like ridiculously hot outside, and we don't want to be roasting or it's cold outside. And hey, for the folks standing around command in the cold, it's like, well, you'd rather be inside where it's heated. And so now you have that involved. Um, so there's like all of these extra factors that fit onto it. And and a lot of people just, yeah, they don't realize what all is involved.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So it's it, yeah, it's interesting. It can be working EMS in the front country, right? We kind of see this with ambulances. People might be hesitant to call for an ambulance because they know it's gonna cost money, um, hesitant to call for rescue because they're afraid of the costs. Um, and then you have kind of the other side, people who, you know, think they're gonna get a free ride, hop on the helicopter, I'm I'm tired, I don't have enough water, or uh, you know, I just want to hop on the ATV because I hike too far. So we certainly see, at least uh, you know, with with my team, we see kind of that that span of of um associations with calling for rescue. Um, Scott, I'm curious, you you mentioned that y'all have access to a helicopter. Can you talk a little bit about the decisions to deploy a helicopter, which is probably one of the more cost and in cost-intensive uh um resources?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so our command structure is set up that every day there's one of our officers is is on call. And if a call comes in, they are kind of the decision-making people. Um we we tie in frequently with our EMS and our our EMS, our paramedics and EMTs here in town. So we bring uh a couple of EMTs if anyone's hurt. If uh the EMTs, based on the information from dispatch or even when they get on scene, determine that the patient needs an air ambulance, they are the ones that make that call. And if it's a a rescue where we need an air asset, the the officer here can make that call. So a lot of our rope rescues, we like to work top down. And so we'll fly a team up top to make anchors and access our patient. If it's a search, we will utilize the you know, uh, an air asset just to run a search. If there's need for avalanche mitigation, they can uh you know utilize charges thrown from a helicopter to make the scene safe. If and we've utilized them for uh just sometimes transporting skiers to a ridgeline to then access somebody who's you know they were just skiing and broke their leg or something like that.

SPEAKER_05

One of the things we've actually recognized um and I uh is the idea that SAR volunteers are really unpaid professionals, like they're an extension of that chain of care. Um and the term volunteers can elicit, I think, a a lower degree of appreciation for what they do. We've begun using the phrase un unpaid professionals because that is what they are. You know, it it's not necessarily that you know they they we have um some of our units have doctors and nurses that go out, but a lot of them are are BLS trained. And it's not necessarily that that um that's not the difference. The difference is they're out there with skill sets that will bring a loved one home and they're an extension of that chain of care as an unpaid professional. So that is a that's a phrase that we've decided is appropriate to use um to elevate the the awareness in the general um community that, you know, these people are they're saving lives and and and they are doing the handoff to AMR or to to the ambulance or to a helicopter, or you know, that that's an important distinction to be made.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's so important because we talk about some of the things that obviously cost money, right? Fuels for fuel for the helicopter, buying a four by four, and then we think, oh, but the people are free, which is so not the case, right? The the training that either their team or them as individuals are paying for, the equipment that they're using, the time off from work, the childcare that you have to call in to go on a call. There are costs associated with every element of search and rescue, even though people are, like you said, technically unpaid. Um so I think that that is such an important point and really one that needs to be hammered home. Um, because I think sometimes people think, oh, it's a bunch of volunteers. Like they don't have a lot of costs associated. Very wrong. And so I'd love to switch. So we talked about kind of the money going out and Carrie, I'll stay with you. What have been traditionally some of the ways that teams, either teams that you've worked with, or yours in particular or more broadly, have been able to recoup some of that cost to be able to do these rescues effectively?

SPEAKER_05

Grant writing and donor relations. Um, and actually we we've taken a look. We took a look at our uh 2025 efforts and assigned um the amount of time it takes to write a single grant and the administrative burden it takes to manage a grant is it is when you take a people want those volunteers to be ready to go out and save the life and do the work. And when you take a look at the just the administrative burden overall on the grant writing, it's it's mind-boggling. Um and then donor relations, uh these are community nonprofits. They are not a lot of them are not fundraising experts. And and when you take a look at some of the other counties, I can I can like King County, we are fortunate. We live within cross close proximity to um some really great organizations and and um uh you know, one in 14 people in Seattle is a millionaire. I mean, there there are funds available, but that's not the same in other areas, but they're expected to do the same work. So, yes, very reliant on some some pretty archaic um ways of of going around fundraising for sure.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm curious, Scott, your thoughts on that because I know when we spoke earlier, you mentioned, you know, you have so many inbound people, so many inbound tourists. So relying on community support can sometimes be a bit of a challenge. Um, can you talk a little bit more just about the the difference in a community where you're seeing so many inbound?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think our organization is a bit unique. All of our members are are paid professionals. So if you're on a call, you're with the exception of your first year as working as a volunteer, but then when you get your full member status, we're what we call paid volunteers. And that money comes from the what we call the TRT or the transient room tax. And so if you visit Moab and you stay at a hotel where if you eat at a restaurant, there is a specific line item in the sales tax that goes to mitigation for all sorts of things that could be our sheriff's office is is largely funded through that tax. Our search and rescue is 100% funded through that tax. Most of the people that we rescue are not local residents. They're from Colorado or Salt Lake here visiting, or or they've you know flown in and they're doing the national park tour or something like that. We also, though, have to do our fundraising. I I have written a few grants and I know exactly what that takes. It's it's a lot of time, and but it does pay off. Those are uh their state grants that uh money comes in from people that have to register their, you know, their motorcycle or their OHV or their snowmobile or their boat. So there's this pot of money that goes then back into um organizations like ours through through these grants. Um and and we r rely on on donations uh to also purchase uh some of that equipment um that we use. Um so and a lot of our training, uh like you you talk about being a professional. I mean, we have our members train in all the different disciplines. We cross-train in everything. And if you want good quality responses, you've got to go and get quality training. It's it's so expensive, you know, to send a team somewhere or bring in a rope instructor to be here for a week, to, to do a you know, a really good training, it's expensive. And a lot of our donation dollars uh go directly towards those sorts of you know specialized trainings.

SPEAKER_06

So something actually I'm curious, Scott, to ask about this is given that you've got the tax dollars coming in and you're using that to fund a lot of the purchases of certainly your fleet equipment and that sort of thing, how much equipment or personal equipment are your folks bringing in themselves that they are acquiring themselves in their own personal life and bringing into the missions, or is that something where you're supplying them as an organization with the equipment that they need?

SPEAKER_00

We supply a lot of the um required personal protective equipment. So um helmets and rope equipment. All of that is is, you know, that that's that's purchased by the the team. You as a member, you show up with your ready pack, basically. Right. And you know uh it varies, but if you wanted to be a member of the team, you really don't have to have much other than good footwear and sunglasses and um, you know, a coat in the wintertime. Uh well, actually we supplied a a team coat too.

SPEAKER_04

So the right attitude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome. So so a lot of teams find themselves here, right, where we have potentially more callouts, people showing up unprepared. We have funding sources that, you know, may or may not have adapted to that um and are really reliant on, you know, personal outlays of time and and volunteer effort. Um and so I think that that has often led a lot of people to ask, okay, well, why are we why are we doing this for free? Why aren't we charging people when they need rescue? And this is a big conversation that you know a lot of people and a lot of teams have quite often. Um, before we kind of get into maybe like the pros and cons or approaches that different teams have had to get more dynamic funding sources, um, Carrie, I'd love to hear if you have maybe a historical context on uh the traditional approach to charging for rescue, why teams are still mostly no-charge, um operating on a no-charge approach.

SPEAKER_05

That is a really good question. Um, I think to answer that, you have to understand the mindset and the drive that that brings people into doing this line of work. Um they're passionate about the work that they're doing. They want a relationship with the community that they're serving. And when you start looking at charging for SAR and you take a look at the models that we see over across the water, um it changed it it can change the dynamic and the relationship between your outdoor recreation community and your SAR volunteers. And and the the hesitation to charge for SAR, I think, comes from a uh a really innate desire to maintain that relationship.

SPEAKER_03

Scott or Colin, any other thoughts on kind of the historical approach to charging for a rescue?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I think one of the I guess there's a couple of factors here. One of the big things is I know there's a fear within Kassara and with many people that I've talked to of and and with our sheriff's office that we never want somebody to be in a position where they need a rescue, where they feel they need a rescue, and they don't call because they're afraid of the cost. And I think there's a lot of benefits to having that person not go through that. A, there's the factor of they get the help they need faster. B, then there's the additional cost complexity, potentially risk to responders, um, if that situation degrades, right? If they stay out there longer not making that call. And then when they finally do, but now the situation is that much worse. And that's worse for everyone. That's not just them, that's everyone involved. And so having that confidence that, yeah, when I call, I'm not gonna, you know, take a major financial hit, but for depending on the person, potentially go bankrupt, whatever it is, that is a huge mental factor in that. The other aspect, touching, building on what Carrie Lee was talking about with that relationship with the community. We've had it where people are on, we're on a search for somebody a loved one is missing, and the family, sometimes they are starting to um get frustrated or or potentially, you know, express some frustration, emotions are high about the fact of, oh, why aren't there more people here? Like, because they're assuming that we're paid. And then once they come to realize that, like, oh, you guys are just volunteers, like you guys are taking time off work away from your family to come out here to to look for our loved one, and it completely flips that working relationship in the field. It takes it from kind of a I'm frustrated, I'm whatever, to I'm grateful. And that makes everyone's job a lot easier to work together to try to bring that loved one home.

SPEAKER_00

We've kind of taken an interesting approach. So if you go to our county website, there's actually a fee schedule uh for search and rescue, depending on on your needs. We haven't charged for search and rescue in a long time. We did for a while, um, you could get a bill from search and rescue. I was looking back on calls um from like 15 years ago. I think maybe this started in around 2005, and it I think it went until maybe even 20 as late as 2017, and you could see how much people were billed. A lot of times it was like $250 or $500. There were some that were like $2,500, and that was kind of divided up and into different resources. And I spoke with the commander at the time when this was going on, and um there was um I think we we hear all the same things. We we don't want people to to wait to call. It puts us out later in the you know, in the dark or in the cold, or it makes their condition worse. And and so, you know, we've gone away from charging. One, we had to, I think we had to pay somebody to collect on these these bills. Um and then so the thinking was, I think at the time is that you could buy insurance. And then there was a a pot of money with all this uh people buying insurance. You know, I'm pretty sure that's what happens in Europe, um, where you know, if you're going mountaineering, you'd I think you'd be a fool not to buy whatever, however many euros that is. It's it's probably like $120 or something like that. I don't know. Um and and so if you had that insurance, you would you wouldn't uh you wouldn't ever get a bill. Um and even now though that we don't charge, um it's amazing how many, how few people really understand that we don't charge. And um, you know, they're they're wondering, and then I give them a card with a QR code and says, hey, if you feel like giving us money, here here's a way to to do that. And the only way they get charged is if you know they get in an ambulance or you know, if if they need medical treatment and hop into that helicopter, that now it's in the healthcare world. And that's a whole nother podcast somewhere, I'm sure, uh in with healthcare costs. But I've seen it where we get people to the road and they are really banged up, but then they won't get in that ambulance and they'll just take themselves to the hospital. And uh and it's be and they've been treated, and so now our EMTs have basically donated four hours of their day. They've taken an ambulance out of service, they've maybe even provided medications and and uh and first aid, and they can't bill them because they didn't get into the ambulance. And that's we we see that a lot here in Grand County.

SPEAKER_03

It's so interesting. And one of the things that brings up, right, the differences between things that people might not know operate differently, right? Of search and rescue, law enforcement, healthcare. These are all people who might be involved in a search or a rescue, but who operate in vastly different ways, and even state to state, county to county ways that search and rescue teams operate, people just may not be aware and may jump to those assumptions. Um, as opposed to um, you know, I heard I, Carrie Lee, I saw you nodding um when Scott mentioned Europe and you mentioned across the the way. So I'm yeah, I'm curious if you have insight into maybe how that's different in places where there's kind of a more cohesive approach.

SPEAKER_05

Sure. Um it they do they do charge for insurance. Um and I think this is one of the the the salient points that uh one of our member units brought home was the story of a gentleman who found himself stranded um at the top of a uh a high point, and he called for search and rescue, and they said, Great, we'll come get you. We need six people, and this is how much it's gonna cost. And he said, uh, no, can you send less? And they said, no, safety parameters, six people. Um call us back when you're ready to accept the charges and and hung up. And um I think that the visceral response of our member unit that came home and they're like, I I couldn't ever imagine saying no because someone couldn't or wouldn't pay. Um and yeah, that that's something that we we kind of uh reflect on when we're determining how do we get creative in funding SAR without putting either the the um unpaid professionals or the the subject at at greater risk. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I think that that moves us into uh an interesting um part of this conversation, right? Where we've kind of identified that hitting people with the bill afterwards may not be the most efficient, right? Because we have to pay for the person to give the bill to track them down. It can be a deterrent for people. Um, but we've also identified that maybe these traditional funding sources aren't quite keeping up with the demand that we're seeing. So um, Carrie Lee, I'll stay with you again. I'd love to hear um what are some other dynamic funding sources that can kind of bridge that gap? Um I know that's a place that you've been thinking about quite a bit. I lose sleep over that. And you just have all you just have all the answers ready to go home short now.

SPEAKER_05

None of the answers, but lots of ideas. Um one thing that we've looked at um and in a couple data points we've been monitoring is how often do corporations and businesses and cities use the outdoor recreation space as uh as a recruitment or a marketing tool? Like how how how many people are they bringing in, um, employing, retaining, um, based on this resource? Because there is an element of ownership that comes with that action. Um, because now without maybe having an understanding of it, you are relying on the the search and rescue community to be the answer to the problem when your employee, your family member, your client, should you be a small business that is in tourism, gets in trouble out in The the backcountry, right? Um, so that's one data point that we've been monitoring and engaging in conversations with some of these corporations and businesses saying, let's partner um so that you can say with confidence, hey, we care about your safety and we're supporting search and rescue so that you can go out and do the thing that we brought you here to do um or to enjoy the space as you, you know, quality of life for for those businesses that actively recruit their employees. Um another thing we've we've done is um taken uh a hard look at um some of our local um our our local government, um, state and federal um and pursued funding sources through um uh levies and or grants that help support the um because we do a lot of resource sharing as CASAR with the seven member unit. So we're kind of um we we take a uh some of that administrative burden from them. Um and so how can we offset some of the cost that way? Um so those are a couple of the approaches. Um we also uh last year there was a house bill that went through. Um it did not pass, but we paid attention to the comments that were being made. Um and we spent the last three months in a stakeholder group reviewing it, taking a look at how we can how we can align the values, the value system of the SAR volunteer or the unpaid professional with the um with the community that they're serving. And, you know, I'll hopefully we make um we make some strides with that, but um, we looked at kind of the donor opt-in option um in areas that are our greatest um users of the outdoor um recreation space visit. So, you know, the Discover Pass or Department of Licensing Um andor Fish and Wildlife. Um but yeah, just a way to engage with the community um and highlight the fact that they're supporting their local volunteer search and rescue organizations and units. Um So we'll see.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love it. And Colin, I I'm interested to hear from you as well. Um, specifically, right, we've talked about people going out unprepared, right? As part of the reason that there's maybe more resource need. Um, any creative ideas that you've encountered with your team or elsewhere about how we can maybe tee people up better so that they either don't need to make the call or that they're making the call, you know, from a more informed place.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. I I mean, a big part of this is I mean, kind of like you're touching on, getting in front of people and raising that awareness. One of the things that's amazing is the number of people who don't even realize that search and rescue kind of exists, like or they kind of know it exists in concept, but like the reality of it, like they just don't know. And then really just getting in front of people with like, hey, go out prepared, right? We have the 10 essentials thing that gets promoted a bunch, which is which is great, right? It's like, yeah, like these are the 10 essentials, make sure you have it. We definitely get a non-insignificant number of missions every year where it's literally just somebody up at the top of a trail, it got dark on them, their phone is almost dead, and they have no headlamp. And it's like, or no flashlight, no other alternative light source. And they're like, Well, I'm stuck. And so we have to literally just walk up, hand them a headlamp, and walk down with them. Um, and then usually while we're walking up to go give them a headlamp, there's actually a number of other people coming down who don't have headlamps, and we're actually handing them out as we go up the trail and saying, okay, drop it off at the command menu when you get down there, um, when you get down to the bottom, please and thank you. Um, because lots of people aren't prepared. And so it's it's putting that out there. And and one of the things I say to all my family members, friends and family members, is if you're going out hiking, if you're going out into the woods for it, whatever driving doesn't matter, go with the mentality that you might spend the night. Take whatever you need that it doesn't need to be a comfortable night, doesn't need to be a fun, you know, fun night, but have enough that you could be like given the temperature, given how remote you are, whatever, you've got enough that you could at least be there through the night. And that puts people in a really good place mentally that they have what they need, that if they do end up spending the night, it's not a like, oh no, the world is blowing up. It's sort of like, well, I kind of thought about this, so okay. Um and then it reduces that pressure on everyone and it might allow them to get themselves out because it buys them time, or certainly it just means that, hey, when it turns out it takes us four hours to get to them or five hours to get to them when maybe they might be thinking it's a half hour. Um it's not nearly as big of a deal.

SPEAKER_03

And Scott, what about on your end? What what are some of the alternate sources or uh approaches that you've talked through on your team?

SPEAKER_00

Um it's interesting. Just Sunday we had the uh tak take someone a flashlight. Uh so uh it's a classic. You know, and and a lot of times here in the desert, it's people that just they run out of water. The 911 call comes in as like heat stroke, and really they they're just dehydrated. They haven't you know, they don't have enough water. So that's a that's a really common one. It's it's frustrating and um because it's so preventable. Um, you know, darkness is forecast literally every day. And um, you know, and and and going out, uh, you know, you don't know how sometimes how long you're gonna be out there if if there's an accident. Um and and so I've definitely had a lot of time to spend thinking about how to educate these visitors. I think it's really easy to educate your local population. I mean, everyone in Moab that lives here knows that, yeah, we got to take a lot of water. Um and it it's how do we reach these people that are that are recreating here from outside? You know, we get people that are like, well, you know, I'm from Florida and it's hot there. And it, but this dry climate is just way different. Um, so some of the things that I'm working on, one that I think the the podcast is that that we've you know, we've done our first season and it's they're entertaining stories that we try to then promote at least something that uh that you could do. Take a flashlight, know how to ascend a rope if you're climbing, you know, whatever it is. Um uh or spend the night, you know, if if uh you know you're in the mountains, you know, have those those warm, warm clothes. Uh, we have a lot of events in Moab. There's um there's at least an event almost every weekend of the year, uh, sometimes overlapping. And some of the larger ones were you know contacting the people that put these events on and saying, hey, can we have like an informational booth and then we can promote things like the Ten Essentials or here, listen to this podcast and oh yeah, and you can give us money you know, in the in the donations. Um but it's uh I think as if I'm not mistaken, it was even on your podcast, Lauren, you talk about um the preventative SAR, it's the the human contact that you really need. People don't read signs. I mean, we do a call, our local call here in town is um you know, it's just a not even a mile hike to a waterfall, and people are jumping off a cliff into this pond, and lo and behold, they're breaking legs. You know, we do a few of these every year, and they literally walk by a sign that says this can happen. Um and so, yeah, how do we how do we get the preventative SAR out there for some of these really easy things is um that's been a challenge. And and so um I think that the thing I'm working on next is I'm trying to uh coordinate with like uh you know, we got a lot of mountain biking here, and so there's a lot of bike rentals. And so if everyone that rents a bike or gives a shuttle, if we can make sure that they have the information to to give to um the public that they're renting to um, you know, on on how search and rescue even works, you know, to let people know, hey, you can text 911 here. Um there's a lot of, I don't know, just basic SAR stuff that we want to get out to the public. And it's it's hard because our rescues are people are coming in from all over. It's it's not generally our local population. Although I'm still working on trying to figure out how to make them stop breaking their legs up at Mill Creek.

SPEAKER_05

Um You got you touched on a couple of things, Scott, that we so you do Back from the Beyond. Last year we we decided to do an inaugural event. It's called SAR Posium. A lot of times SAR, the the SAR community, they do SAR conferences, which is like internal training. We decided to take it outside of that and try to bring the greater community in. We call them the SAR ecosystem. Like everybody's a part of it in identifying what your role is within that SAR ecosystem. Are you a user of the outdoor recreation space? Are you a donor? Are you a potential volunteer? Are you a legislator that can support initiatives that we put forth? Are you a corporation that could partner with us? So what we've done is um we it's called Beyond the Mission, bringing a loved one home. And we um we brought every facet, every piece of of the mechanism that had or the machine that had to that it took to bring one person home. So it was the SAR coordinator, it was the helicopter, it was the four SAR units, it was the 40 people, it was the eight days, and they share their story. And then we had the subject talk about the impact that that had on their life. Um, and that we have found to be actually very successful because it it um it's eye-opening because they they the people the the community gets to experience that story and they begin to really see just what it takes to bring that loved one home. Um we're also preparing for FIFA here, so we've had to get creative on preventative messaging. So our biggest member unit, Explorer Search and Rescue, they do a really fun series called How Not to Die. They go, they go to different, it's hilarious. Um they've done a very good job of making a very difficult subject interesting, um, up to and including like fashion shows on how to layer properly and and that kind of thing. Um, but above that, we are um we took some uh study done, work done by American Whitewater that looked at pictograms that are used internationally for communication. And so we we've actually created um these pamphlets and we're gonna have window clings and business windows that say like how to call 911, but we also have the pictures associated with it so that it it translates across um your language barriers. We've uh we're gonna be doing 10 essential swag bags in these small businesses so that people as they come out to recreate, um, they can see that window cling and know that in that small business they can pick up a 10E, 10 essential swag bag that has the flashlight. It's got water, it has it has the things that they need to at least be, you know, baseline safe. Um and then we took a look at how to penetrate the uh you know, the I think an untapped market is kids. SAR can be somewhat unapproachable. I mean, you you save lives, and people are like, you know, they some people, you know, they they they kind of fan they're you know, you're like celebrities in some cases, and you're untouchable and and some sometimes somewhat unapproachable because you are in that space of of saving lives. And so we took a look at how can we pull people in? Um, and so we're we're testing uh the concept of a SARS quatch, um which it interests people. It it's something that's familiar with the Pacific Northwest. Kids um will are more interested, and once you get the the the kids interested, the parents follow. And so how can we educate people from a young age on on these preventative measures because they're the next generation of outdoor recreationists? So um, you know, those are just some of the things we're working on to see um how we can better educate and and reach a wider um group of of of the communities.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. I I love all this because it's if we can cut down right on the calls of I didn't bring a headlamp, I didn't bring enough water, right? That are can be really resource heavy, but so easily preventable and focus those resources more on the calls that are are not preventable because accidents will always happen. Things are always gonna happen in the outdoors, and that is why we're here. And obviously we like to go on call-outs. So, you know, um, that's okay. Yes, right. Um, but we there is a limitation to what what teams can do at a certain point, right? So if if if we are able to remove those calls that are preventable, we can focus on on the more emergent situations. Um and I also really love kind of talking about engaging the community. And just I I feel like there is probably so much there for teams to explore creatively when it comes to enlisting community partners for education. You know, some sort of relationships that can be built where if people, you know, do a little course or workshop, they can get a perk from a community partner. There's so many creative ideas out there. And so um I think this is really important to keep conversations like this going. Find out what other teams are doing, find out creative ways that teams can find support in the community, find funding, find resources, and find opportunities to educate um the people in their county. Uh, Colin, I'd love to just tap you in for any closing thoughts about um what what your team might be working on in the future, any cool projects that are uh focused on fundraising or community awareness, things like that.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, absolutely. Uh specifically within 4x4 search and rescue, we are starting a push to revamp our entire fleet. Uh, we've got a fleet of aging vehicles, uh, some of which are donated from past members, uh donated from corporations, but they are all very much aging out. And so we're entering into a multi-year phase here of basically replacing every single vehicle in our fleet. Um, that's a command van. We're considering trailer options on that front, but still commit aging command van. Uh, we've got a F-350 pickup truck that could look at replacing that with something more modern and with with all of the newer uh amenities, um, as well as uh more technical off-roading vehicles. So that's that's gonna be kind of our big project for the next multiple years. Uh in addition to that, uh it's fundraising. I mean, it's what what we're here talking about today pre primarily is is we within our unit, even we have fundraising uh a lack of fundraising skill and a and a muscle. And we're Cassar is amazing, and but we need to do some of that ourselves, and uh and so it's building that muscle.

SPEAKER_00

I I think when you're a professional organization, you're there's a level of expectation that you need to have um the you know the newest, fanciest tools. And um by the time, you know, you get by the time you buy one drone, there are, you know, uh there's a whole new fancier drone out there that does something even better. And so the the expenses, the the equipment, it's endless. And if and you know, you you I think you need to keep up with it to to some degree to to be that professional organization, whether you're a paid volunteer or or not. We're all professionals in and responding uh with that degree of of professionalism with your training and and your and your tools. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And I think that that really echoes what Carrie Lee, what you said earlier, and I think that uh something that King County Search Trust Association does really well, which is treated as a profession, right, regardless of who's being paid or not.

SPEAKER_05

So they're un they so I think Scott, you yes, you're paid, but you you are a force multiplier for the sheriff's office. They could not do that work without you. And that's something that we have very much um made uh a a solid point of our communication strategy this year is that these these SAR units, they are that force multiplier that um our sheriff's office, King County and other counties could not do without them. Um and so when they are out there doing the work of as an extension of, you know, this the law enforcement um office that they're they're working under, yes, there is an expectation that they have the equipment and the community would want them to have the right equipment. Um couple fundraising initiatives we're working on. One is called 100 strong. We're actively recruiting 100 businesses throughout King County because it can't just be the gateway communities that are responsible for supporting search and rescue, just because that's where a majority of them happen. They're coming from everywhere. So you bring in 100 businesses because there is donor fatigue. Businesses are tired. There's been changes to the tax structure, and we have to we have to be familiar with that and aware of that so we can have smart conversations. But you bring in 100 businesses and you say, Hey, please expect to write a check for $1,000, but you're gonna be funding this program or this project for this year. There's buy-in, uh, a sense of um uh of real investment, of being a part of the solution when you bring the businesses into the decision making. Um and then I think it's also in and then it's a sus a sustainable funding stream for these units because they can expect, I know that my $100,000 project is going to get funded this this year because of this structure we've built. But I think it's also important to find an avenue for us to support SAR through distribution as opposed to grant writing and administratively heavy um um uh avenues. And so when we took a look at what what it would take to support SAR statewide, because this is what the stakeholder group was, it it's a distribution algorithm. The money comes in and it's distributed to the units because we know they're doing good work. So why do we keep asking them to prove the work that they're doing? Like they know how they need to steward those funds and to steward them well. Um, and and having them to account for for absolutely every dollar that comes in, yes, you have your 990s and and all of that, and and it's you know, there's accountability, but this idea that they have to constantly prove their value based on this um this reporting um mechanism that that's existed since the dawn of time. You know, how can we distribute funds and do it in a way that lifts um every SAR unit? And in that way, we we really are supporting um the that that SAR community. So, you know, those are two things that we're really we're really leaning into this year. Um we'll we'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_03

That's great. And I think that's such a such a great thought to kind of wrap up on, right, is that really emphasizing the importance of SAR, professionalism of SAR and the needs of SAR and the fact that, you know, this is um something that saves lives and just the the efficacy and professionalism of these teams. Um and if we're gonna continue to rely on search and rescue units and search and rescue teams, just the importance of making sure that they are sustained um and and well fed. Um, so I want to thank you all for being here. Um anybody that wants to continue this conversation, you know, I think this is something that, again, the best ways that we can help teams grow and come up with new ideas is through this cross-pollination. So um, if anybody's interested in getting in touch with any of our guests today, you can reach out to Base Medical and we'd be happy to set up some conversations. Um we're also hoping to in the future potentially just have some open forums for different teams to come and discuss topics, not in a podcast setting, but just kind of in an open forum where we can facilitate some of that cross-pollination. So we hope that folks will kind of stay tuned in for opportunities there. Um, I just want to thank you all for your time today and for your insight and for all the good work that you do out there. Um, if anybody is interested, again, it's back from the beyond is the podcast from Grand County. Uh, some great stories there. And please check out uh King County Search and Rescue Association on Instagram. They are fantastic to follow. Uh, and anything else that y'all want to refer people to in terms of resources to keep up with what you're doing?

SPEAKER_05

Well, we do have Sarposium coming up, and that's a that's a really fun way to keep in touch with some of the things that we're working on this year. So that's it. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_04

All right, great. Thanks so much, everybody, for being here. I really appreciate your time. Great. Thanks, Lauren.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you so much, Lauren.

SPEAKER_01

In SAR, you're expected to deliver professional care, which is why every responder should at least have a wilderness first aid certification. Base Medical offers the only Wilderness First Aid and First Responder courses built for search and rescue. Get your SAR WFA or recertify your WFR with live instruction online from anywhere and for half the cost. Or become a base medical instructor to deliver training to your team in person. Learn more at base-medical.com.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

That was an amazing conversation. So many good points that were brought up. So many so many things that I think about every day in regards to search and rescue. Um, especially at the systems level. And yeah, I mean, I just I think this I think this is actually one of the most um impactful conversations we've had yet on the podcast. We've had so many great conversations, but for me, this is one of I guess uh my major pain points is that search and rescue, we are professionals, but we are operating in a very unprofessional environment. And by that I mean we usually do not have state resources, national resources. We don't have the funding, um the perception of the public is that we're always gonna be there, and yet they don't realize how much work goes into it. Um, so yeah, I I do think it's uh that was an incredible conversation.

SPEAKER_03

I think you nailed it. Like one of the things that comes up a lot in these conversations, I'm finding is how how excited people are to help that are working on search and rescue. They want to be there, they want to go on calls, we want to respond, but there's a whole system of supports that needs to be in place for that to happen. Right. Your passion can only get you so far if you don't have the proper resources, the proper communication channels to be aware of those call-outs. Um, and that it is really important to make sure that the research that we do have are being funneled to the calls that need it most.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the things that Scott mentioned is that, you know, professionals are expected to have like the latest and greatest equipment and technology. Um, and that that could be quite easy to maintain that expectation and to continue to push forward if you are an agency that's backed by the county or by the state. But a lot of search and rescue teams are not. And so we have this expectation, but yet again, we don't have that consistent funding. We have to go out there and get it. We don't have that consistent support and the networking. And that's one of the things I have said in New Mexico that unfortunately um the fire department and the sheriff's offices, they can always outfund us. They can always outgear us, they can always outnetwork us. And if we don't step up and try to get our own state funding and those other resources ourselves, that's consistent and enough, then then we're just going to fall behind, continue to fall behind.

SPEAKER_03

And I think it points back to just some of the themes that keep coming up in these conversations. And one of them is that public outreach and awareness piece. So the more that the public can be aware of the work that teams can do, the immense training that they go through, the skills that they have, and be aware that this is a resource that exists. Um, I think the more visibility that these teams have, the more people in the general public would potentially push for funding or businesses would want to get involved. Um, so I think that that piece is just so, so crucial, that public awareness. And the extra benefit of that is promoting that preventative search and rescue piece too. So when you're out there in the community, you're building awareness, you're hopefully teeing people up for a better outcome in the outdoors, and you're minimizing those calls of, you know, hike up a mountain to bring someone some water so that you can put some resources into, you know, the things that are unpreventable or less preventable.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, and King County Search and Rescue Association has always done such a great job in supporting their member teams that are underneath them, and then also just continuing to push at the state level for that awareness, which is so important. Carrie Lee mentioned something that really does pull tug at my heartstrings because it's something that I do speak to over and over again. And I've met with different states and their entities about this, but it's the fact that search and rescue is a part of the outdoor economy. And the outdoor economy, it's not just like who is the outdoor economy, like what who makes up the outdoor economy? And it's not just those that go and recreate on the trails and then those that sell them the gear. It's the land use agencies, it's the gear companies, it's those that want to go and trail run and use the beautiful wilderness, and it's search and rescue. And we have to look at it and approach it from that whole perspective. Um, one of the way I like to talk about search and rescue when I'm talking to the outdoor recreation divisions or the equivalent in other states is that we we're a cost benefit to them. We are almost, we are their safety net, and we do help reduce the the cost that they're having to spend on rescues and lower that barrier to the outdoors. So it's also interesting to hear, I believe it was um Scott bring up the idea that if we did start to charge for search and rescue, that that would be a significant barrier on the outdoors. And I do, I do agree with that. Um I mean, I worry about going to the doctor and how much that's going to cost. I don't want to worry about going for a trail run, which is my relief. And that's how I'm literally running away from the problems in this world. I don't want to have to worry if if I you know end up getting hurt. And so I don't know what what were what were your thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. The outdoors can be such a like a salve for people right now. Um, and I think that the more folks we can get outside, the better. Um, and I think that Colin also made a really interesting point about that, where if the person needs help, they're they need help. And delaying that call because they're worried about being charged is just gonna be a worse outcome for the subject. It's gonna put the team in more danger, it's gonna incur more cost. So, you know, removing that barrier of, oh, I don't want to call for help because I don't want to pay is really important. And, you know, like we mentioned during the conversation too, you see that in people's reluctance to maybe go in an ambulance to the emergency room versus trying to get there themselves because they're worried about that charge and how that can lead to worse patient outcomes. So um, I think that it is, you know, really important that we are not punishing people for admitting that they need help.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, and then it would just further the economic divide. I mean, like our whole model, our wilderness medicine model, like base medical was born out of the idea that there is this economic divide and this type of education is inaccessible to a lot of individuals that can't afford to travel. And, you know, it's like it's already expensive enough to go and recreate in the outdoors at times. And then you add on safety training that's life-saving, that you also can't afford that. It would be the same in the say the same along the same lines, right? Of like, oh, okay. So not only can I not afford the gear to go out and adventure and the safety training I need. And then if I do need help, it's just gonna all be so expensive. So I might as well just not even go in the outdoors and just continue to stay home. And that I wouldn't want anyone to make that decision.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly. And this all all just points back to the benefit that can exist when we make education, resources, awareness accessible to the public. So I'm really proud of the work that we do at Base Medical to make that accessible. And I really hope that this podcast and the other projects that you know we're working on at BASE will continue to do that for the outdoor community, whether it's professionals, paid professionals, unpaid professionals, or recreationalists.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's that's what I'm so proud of with Base Medical as well. I'm hoping that the conversations that we're having here on this podcast and beyond can contribute to us starting to build the future and the future that we want, the future that's going to actually serve the community and serve search and rescue in the best way possible. And that's where this conversation, I think, does bring up a little bit of overwhelm in the sense that it there's a lot that we have to solve here. There's a lot that we have to address. But at the same time, there's so much opportunity here. There's so much opportunity. We have almost a clean slate to say, to look at it and say, okay, how do we want to build this? How do we want to move this forward? How do we build our own model where someone's not worried about calling for help, but yet search and rescue is still supported? And I'm hoping that through these conversations we can get there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I hope so too. There seems to be a big, um, a big focus and awareness to building resilient communities right now. And I think any way that we can be a part of that, any way that we can build those supports is really important. Well, thanks so much to our guests for that wonderful conversation. Thanks to you, Teal, for continuing to encourage and engage in these conversations. And thanks to everybody for listening. Um, and if you have suggestions for future podcast episodes, if you'd like to follow up with any of the guests that were on the podcast today, you can feel free to reach out to us at hello at base-medical.com and keep listening to the podcast. See you later, Teal.

SPEAKER_02

Bye, Lauren. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

SAR Mutual Aid is produced by Lawrence Genechny and Teal Harmon and presented by Base Medical. For more information, visit base-medical.com