109: SAR Advocacy with Jeff Sparhawk

Why is advocacy so important for the future of SAR?

Showing up and having a seat at the table is key for the continued growth of SAR in the United States.

Today, we talk to Jeff Sparhawk - Executive Director for Colorado SAR Association. With over 30 years of SAR experience and an education in law, Jeff has been instrumental in moving forward statewide Search and Rescue policies and processes.

Today's Guest

Jeff Sparhawk: Executive Director for Colorado Search and Rescue Association (CSAR), non-profit lawyer, SAR advocate

Transcript

Opening Voice 0:01

Incident command to field team. Sending in mutual aid.

Teal Harbin 0:06

Welcome to SAR Mutual Aid, the podcast where search and rescue teams share lessons, tackle challenges, and find real solutions.

Lauren Skonieczny 0:15

We bring together leaders from SAR teams across the country to discuss solutions to universal problems.

Teal Harbin 0:20

I'm Teal Harbin, Base Medical CEO, a Wilderness Paramedic nurse, and a SAR volunteer in New Mexico.

Lauren Skonieczny 0:27

And I'm Lauren Skonieczny a wilderness EMT and SAR volunteer based in Portland, Oregon. Join us as we cross county lines to find new ways that you can empower and strengthen your team.

Opening Voice 0:38

Presented by Base Medical.

Lauren Skonieczny 0:40

Hi, Teal. It's been a while. How are you doing?

Teal Harbin 0:43

I know it has been a while, but that's it's also summer, and summer is the busiest time, right? I think for everyone, but I'm doing well. And what about you, Lauren?

Lauren Skonieczny 0:51

I'm great too. Yeah, I can't believe it's July. Uh I feel like you blink and time goes by uh in in a flash this time of year. Um so I'm super super excited to check in today. Um, I've been spending a little bit of time kind of thinking back on our episodes, looking back, and I'm really excited and proud of the conversations that we've had so far this year.

Teal Harbin 1:12

Uh I am too. I I really could not say which episode is the one that I enjoy the most because I enjoy all of them just so much. They all offer such deep value. I mean, from like the teen culture one, your last episode about charging for search and rescue. Um, I mean, the family liaison special subject populations. There's just so, so much that we have covered in this one season. And it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Lauren Skonieczny 1:42

Totally. Yeah. As we've, as we've, you know, dove headfirst into uh SAR season and been doing so much, and the teams are all, you know, out in the field and lots of multi-agency stuff going on. I've really just seen a lot of the things that we've talked about this past season, you know, in in real life. And some of those lessons have just been been really important. And I really hope that they've been helping a lot of other teams with their team culture, their fundraising, their you know, interagency relations, all that fun stuff. Um, and I I hear that we do have uh, you know, a little bit more to share before we take a break for the season. So um you had a conversation that was pretty relevant to a lot of the stuff that's come up this season, right?

Teal Harbin 2:23

Yeah, yeah, I did. And we are, you know, about to wrap up this podcast season. We have what, two more episodes left. Um, but this this episode, this interview that I did, I felt was very important. And we definitely need to have as a discussion in the first season because there has been a recurring theme that has just popped up with each interview. And that is representing your team, whether it's through marketing, public relations, um, legislation, whatever it may be. And so at the heart of this, I think it's really comes down to advocating for your team. And that is what today's interview is all about. Um, that's our topic today. Um, but yeah, what do you what are your thoughts on advocacy before I introduce who uh who's our guest today?

Lauren Skonieczny 3:15

Yeah, no, I agree. That's been something that as we go back through the episodes, that comes up over and over is like, what is the public image of your SAR team? How are you connecting with the community? How are you connecting with other agencies? You know, how are you making sure that the work that you're capable of doing is seen and valued and invested in so that as a team and as a community, we can continue to grow.

Teal Harbin 3:38

Yeah, but that's also where it goes a little uh deeper than that, in the sense that you, as a search and rescue team, as the ones that do have the subject matter expertise, more so than other agencies, you do need a seat at the table. And one of the other things that we've discussed quite a few times throughout this season is the fact that many states have a form of, you know, outdoor recreation office or division. And obviously the initiatives and the decisions made at that state level, they do have an impact on search and rescue. And if you have a seat at that table and can voice your concerns or um work together so that these initiatives don't actually harm the community or harm search and rescue, that's that's in the best interest of everyone. But how do you get that seat at the table? And that's advocacy. And so today I'm so excited to have interviewed Jeff Sparhawk. He's the executive director of Colorado Search and Rescue. Um, he has spent decades building the search and rescue community, advocating, making sure that they do have a seat at the table, making sure they do have a voice that is not just um acknowledged, but truly heard. And so uh I think he even went back to school and became an attorney just for Colorado search and rescue, which is pretty impressive. Yes. Commitment. It is, it is. And so that's why I'm so excited about today's interview. Awesome. Cool. Well, I'm excited as well. Let's give it a listen.

Opening Voice 5:13

In SAR, you're expected to deliver professional care, which is why every responder should at least have a Wilderness First Aid certification. Base Medical offers the only Wilderness First Aid and First Responder courses built for search and rescue. Get your SAR WFA or re-certify your WFR with live instruction online from anywhere and for half the cost. Or become a base medical instructor to deliver training to your team in person. Learn more at base-medical.com.

Teal Harbin 5:50

Hello everyone. I am so excited about today's topic for this episode. It is SAR advocacy and the future of search and rescue. I think this topic is very important because we are in an interesting time right now with the outdoor recreation economy and search and rescue and a whole lot of other things. And so that is why I have invited our guest today, Jeff Sparhawk, who is from Colorado. Uh, I will let him introduce himself briefly, but search and rescue, as we all know, is an essential public safety service, but in many states it's not well recognized, like here in New Mexico. However, that greatly differs in Colorado, and I do believe it's because of you, Jeff, uh, in large part. I know there's a lot of other people who have helped um along the way and are critical for everything that you've done in Colorado. But without further ado, I will let you introduce yourself.

Jeff Sparhawk 6:45

I started in uh search and rescue in late 80s. So I've been around for a little while. Um I'm a member of Rocky Mountain Rescue Group and Front Range Rescue Dogs on a local basis. So I'm a volunteer. And then uh starting a couple years ago, I was hired as the first executive director for Colorado Search and Rescue Association. Um and so I spend all my waking hours essentially uh working on backcountry search and rescue issues here in Colorado.

Teal Harbin 7:19

But of course, you spending all of your waking hours on search and rescue issues in Colorado started before you even became the Colorado search and rescue executive director, right, for the association. And so um, yeah, tell tell us more about your legal background, because you're an attorney and why you decided to become an attorney.

Jeff Sparhawk 7:39

Yeah, you know, I uh I think I think this all started for me growing up, where my family was um very community oriented and we cared about our community that we lived in uh in lots of different ways. And it's just kind of carried through for me. And so uh I originally am from New England, but came to Colorado uh a long time ago and recognized that one uh a love of the mountains um and being outdoors, which is lifelong. Uh, but then how do I give back to that community? And uh being involved as a the City of Boulder climbing ranger, um, as a wildlife firefighter, uh, as working for law enforcement as a dispatcher, I saw this whole community um and recognized that uh one of the things that it lacked was the ability to really work in the bigger world, right? Where uh law is a is a major portion of uh the underpinnings of what everybody does probably in everyday life, uh and how we interact with each other. So uh that was a major reason reason for me to go to law school. And uh uh, you know, I I practice law uh in a firm and I practice law as a solo practitioner. Um, but uh for that whole time I've been uh supporting and and representing uh SAR teams around Colorado.

Teal Harbin 9:07

Yeah, which is obviously very important work, and I completely agree with you. It's absolutely needed. The advocacy part, though, again, that's kind of ingrained in who you are. And it seems like you're a systems-level thinker from the numerous conversations we've had, which is why I think it's uh so amazing that you recognized the importance of having representation, search and rescue representation at the state level in Colorado. And, you know, you really went out there and you made those connections with legislation, but but why? Like why why did you think there was a need for search and rescue to advocate for itself at the state level?

Jeff Sparhawk 9:50

Yeah, and I wouldn't say it stops at the state level. I think it goes above and below that as well. But uh, so back in um the teens, I was I was actually president of of CSAR, and we came to the realization um that we were facing an unsustainable future uh in terms of number of calls was going up, the uh age of the responders was going up, the ability to attract uh long-term responders was going down. The ability to just live in Colorado uh is very difficult with the cost of living, especially if you have strong knees and strong backs and you want to live in a mountain community, you're probably working five jobs uh just to afford to live there, and you don't have time or money uh to be able to do uh what we want people to do. And so uh sustainability was a was a big piece of this. It was also a recognition at that time that search and rescue uh has a huge impact in in what we all do. The um the individuals do it for their reasons, and everybody has their own different reasons, right? Um however, I would suggest that there's a sense of self, a sense of pride that comes with this, pride in myself, pride in my teams, um, that leads me to want to make a difference, right? And I think ultimately that's what everybody wants to do is they want to make a difference. Um but their their work, their time, their energy, their action, their impact actually is much larger. And it affects uh for us, our tourism economy, our outdoor recreation economy, um, and quite frankly, just the general Colorado economy. Um so I think there's a kind of a public policy. We want to live in communities where people take care of each other, right? And and there's all kinds of uh government services or NGO services that are out there that do great work. Um our focus area is you know kind of beyond where an ambulance can drive.

Teal Harbin 12:02

Yeah.

Jeff Sparhawk 12:02

Uh to go do that work, I think is is um where it really matters and where it really affects things.

Teal Harbin 12:10

Well, the thing though is Colorado it's recognized that your work is important. At least it's recognized more so than other states. Other states, their search and rescue teams really are not well recognized. Uh their value is usually underestimated. And in Colorado, though, you do have a lot more respect. SAR does have a seat at the table and a voice, at least more so than in many other states. And that's where the point I'm getting to is again back to advocacy. How did you all get to the table? How did you how did you get to a point where you have a voice? Did was it just given to you? Did someone approach you and say, hey, we'd like to talk to you, or did you did you have to build your way there?

Jeff Sparhawk 13:06

You know, I I think it's a we first had to have the idea, right? The idea that we don't just respond to the the recall, the calls in our valley, whichever valley we happen to be in. It's we all have to work together. We all see a bigger picture. And it's not just an emergency response picture with fire, with law enforcement, with EMS. It's actually this economic idea. It's actually this this is the culture of Colorado, right? We want people to come to Colorado, we want people to enjoy our mountains um and our rivers and our valleys. And um we started to look into this and recognize that so in Colorado, these these numbers are a little bit old, but um our outdoor rec economy is about 14 billion dollars.

Teal Harbin 13:57

Oh my gosh.

Jeff Sparhawk 13:58

Right? There's a hundred and thirty thousand jobs in the outdoor rec economy in Colorado, right? And we're kind of a uh foundational piece to that whole portion of our economy, and we do it on the backs of unpaid professionals who give their time and their money uh to make this work. And so what happens to Colorado if we fail? Right? And so, first question what is the definition of failure? Right? If we fail, does that mean people die? Does that mean calls are not responded to? What what does that look like? We don't know. We don't want to ever know. And so how do we proactively fix this this situation? And I think that's another piece of this. We are all responders, right? The call drops, we go. To take that and twist it to no, we're gonna proactively engineer our future, proactively approach the bigger world, recognize our place in the bigger world, right? We're a piece in a big puzzle. How do we define our piece? How do we see our future? Now let's go make it happen.

Teal Harbin 15:16

I love that. And I love that perspective. Because first, you know, SAR teams have to recognize that they are a critical part of the outdoor recreation economy. And we've talked a little bit about that on the podcast in on past episodes. Um, but we really are the safety net of the outdoor recreation economy. Colorado would be impacted greatly if search and rescue did not exist. Not only, I think, would lives be lost if there's any weakness in the system or um like inefficiency like we had here in uh New Mexico, where we were having lives lost because of that. But Colorado would suffer financially as well. That would start to cut into their bottom line. Um, it's just the cost alone of having to do rescues of the other those other agencies going out there to perform rescues, maybe they could get hurt as well. It just goes on and on and on.

Jeff Sparhawk 16:11

So I think that there's also a recognition that you can look at this through lots of different facets. Um, if you look at it through the emergency response facet, um, law enforcement, fire, EMS, search and rescue. And you can go on, you know, there's other aspects of that. But um I think that there is a recognition that through specialization you can create more value. And so for um for law enforcement to try to do search and rescue, that might work really well, but it also means now they're jacks of all trade, more so, and um maybe can't focus as much on law enforcement duties that they're really good at, or fire maybe can't focus as much on fighting fires or responding to vehicle accidents um as they might need to do. I also think that there are only so many responders out there, and we need to support one another. And I don't think that this is ever a turf battle between emergency response agencies. I think that you talked about respect. I think that there needs to be more respect for all emergency responders, and we don't need to be fighting over calls, we don't need to be fighting over dollars, we don't need to be fighting at all. We need to increase the size of the pie. We need to figure out who's doing what when. And at times, uh backcountry search and rescue is the tip of the spear, and at times we're the butt of the spear and we're just supporting other events, right? And we have to recognize that we have to build those relationships and we have to uh build the respect within that emergency response community that these folks are good at this and these folks are good at something else, and we're gonna coordinate it uh to really get the the public all of the services they need at the right time, at the right place.

Teal Harbin 18:13

Yeah, I completely agree. Uh the the mission should be focused on the safety of the community and there shouldn't be turf roars. Everyone is needed, every agency is needed. I think that's the ideal way search and rescue should operate. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen all the time, but I liken it to an urban 911 call. When I was a paramedic on the ambulance here in Albuquerque, we would get a 911 call for let's say chest pain, and there was a possible altercation or gang-related violence or whatever it is. So who's showing up? We have us as the paramedics to take care of the medical side of things. We have the police to take care of the more security safety side of things. And then sometimes fire would also show up to support us. And it was a multi-agency response. Everyone knew their role and everyone was there to support each other. And that's how I think a search and rescue mission should go, is where we still need law enforcement there. We still need search and rescue and possibly the fire department and everything. And and the other agencies, I, you know, I actually, this is where I'll disagree with you a little bit, is the other agencies. Uh, I agree, if they were to do search and rescue, they would then kind of become that jack of all trades. But I really don't think they would become the jack of all trades. I think they usually do one area, one very narrowly focused aspect of search and rescue very well. And that is access, rope rescue, or helicopter access or whatever it is. But they usually come short when it comes to practicing wilderness medicine and truly knowing the ins and out of wilderness medicine, of search techniques, of um all of the other aspects that come with search and rescue because it's an incredibly large multidisciplinary field. And so that's why I think, which I I, you know, I know you agree on this as well. While all agencies do need to be there, we do need search and rescue as its own focused, specialized service. Um and I and I think in general, that's the way, not just at the state level, but nationally, is the way we need to move. Is we need to move towards search and rescue being recognized as its own specialty, just like law enforcement's recognized its own specialty and EMS and fire department. You don't see the firefighters responding to possibly arrest someone, you know? And so, and you also likewise don't see police officers trying to uh diagnose a complex cardiac dysrhythmia on the cardiac monitor and give epinephrine at the scene of a cardiac arrest, right? That's not their role, but they are there anyway, serving a different role in support. So anyway, I will go ahead and get off my soapbox on that one.

Jeff Sparhawk 21:15

Well, so so Teal, no, let's let's actually stay on that soapbox for just a second.

Teal Harbin 21:19

Okay.

Jeff Sparhawk 21:20

Um so yeah, I I obviously agree with you in terms of we need specialization um and we need to identify where different specialties make sense, right? A uh fire protection district in a very rural community with no more than a two-story house needs to focus on uh the calls that they get, whereas a downtown Albuquerque, downtown Denver fire department different world, right? Different skill sets, different all kinds of things. Um just like search and rescue, where if you have um the Colorado River that you have to deal with, you better be good at. At Swiftwater, right? If you don't have a river, you probably don't need to be spending a whole lot of time on Swiftwater. Um, likewise, if you're in eastern Colorado or Kansas, you might not have the number of calls to really maintain a team. In which case, maybe fire is the appropriate approach uh for the one call you get every five years. Right. And so I I think there's lots of factors here that come into it. And that's where for Colorado at least, we have a very diverse um uh geography. And the Eastern Plains, we get big snowstorms out there that shut down the whole Eastern Plains, and we go out there and help them when that's the case. But when we're in the more urban I-25 quarter on the eastern uh where the eastern plains hit the mountains, um, very, very busy teams, um, a lot of technical stuff, but it's hard to get lost. There's just so many people, right? Whereas if you put further west into the high mountains, um, yeah, there's wilderness, there's uh places to go that um searches are a big deal and they can last a long time. And then you get to the Utah border and you have desert slot canyons. So a different type of rescue, right? And and and rivers throughout. Um, and so for us, I think that diversity of geography forces us to have teams which have different focuses. And they need to be good at their focus, right? And so from an advocacy standpoint, I think that this goes to the local advocacy of we need to fit what we're doing based on our response protocols, our response pattern, our history. Um, and that might be hey, we need to advocate at the at the local level for more safety education on rivers or in the mountains or whatever it might be.

Teal Harbin 23:56

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and great, let's go ahead and pull it back to advocacy. Uh, let's just before we move any further, define why advocacy is so important. I mean, we've discussed it a tiny bit, but um, to me, just as you alluded to, you have to take it for yourself. You have to be the one to determine or at least have a say in your future, right? In the team's future, in the community's future. Because if you don't, someone's going, someone else will decide it for you. And that someone else probably has no idea the value of search and rescue, the resources that are needed for the teams. Or in some states, they may not even be fully aware of search and rescue and um and the fact that they should be consulted or supported or um considered in the in the overall big picture of things. So yeah, please tell me in your mind, um, why is advocacy so important?

Jeff Sparhawk 24:57

To me, advocacy um is is promoting an idea, promoting a culture um to somebody inside or outside, right? And and using various different tactics to uh either maintain the status quo or change it. And that might be to a legislature, which might be uh uh uh get towards lobbying. It might just be through conversation, it might be through social media or uh traditional media and public opinion. Right. So the to me, there's a lot of different tactics and strategy that goes on with advocacy, but first understanding the who, what, when, why, where of what you're advocating for matters.

Teal Harbin 25:44

Yeah. Advocating for increased public awareness of a particular trail issue would be different than trying to advocate for state level funding for search and rescue.

Jeff Sparhawk 25:57

Yeah, absolutely.

Teal Harbin 25:58

I do want to just go back to again the future of search and rescue because I do think this is important for teams to really understand, both at the county level, state level, and national level, there are things that we need to consider when it comes to the future of search and rescue. So the outdoor recreation economy is rapidly growing. It's now valued more than the oil and gas industry, which is very impressive. And I think we are going to continue to see an increased demand for search and rescue, whether it's valued or not, the demand will be there. So, how do you see search and rescue evolving over the next 10 to 20 years? And help me paint a picture of what you think that future would look like with and without advocacy.

Jeff Sparhawk 26:49

I'm gonna start with sustainability. Um, this has been one of our goals for a long time, and quite frankly, it will never be achieved. Um however, I think that sustainability, uh, the only stable sustainability is a system that can evolve and change and adapt as appropriate, right? The world is going to continue to change, and it seems like it's changing faster and faster. Um, and so there isn't a this is the way we do things. I think it's create a an adaptable system that itself can adapt uh to the situation. So a couple of weeks ago here in Boulder, uh one of the Rocket Mountain Rescue Group members gave an awesome talk on where the team might be going. And he has a Tesla, and he uh had he programmed in location for his Tesla to go, and it drove there. And he didn't touch the steering wheel and he videotaped himself the whole way. And that that location was out of cell phone coverage. And then he programmed it to a different location out of cell phone coverage and had it go there. Um and he did a little bit of math and said, Hey, you know, if we had autonomous response vehicles, they could just drive to the trailheads. And we wouldn't have to drive the drive to go get the vehicle then to respond, because we don't have folks sitting at a headquarters ready to go. Um, we do allow some of our members to respond emergency. Uh, not that we're suggesting an autonomous vehicle respond emergency. Um, but he ran the numbers and said, hey, our response time would be faster if we had an autonomous response vehicle. Okay, well, so then add to that, and this is part of the presentation, in China and apparently in the United States now, uh, they have taken this idea of a UAV or a drone, and they now have ones that will fly humans, individual one individual human. Well, how could we adapt that? And could we fly to a location, right? And I think everybody's probably seen the little jetpack thing that they've been uh playing with in in Europe. Um but could you use it for access, but then also um evacuation? And what would that mean? Well, one of the questions, I and I talked about data a second ago, um what what numbers are we measuring? How do we say that we are being more effective and more efficient in providing better, faster, whatever it is, services? Um, maybe we need to rejigger the data we're looking for based on the tools available. And so we all know that uh satellite communication is here. Um different technology for rescuing, uh using, say, robots, right? The UR using it in the USAR world for all kinds of things. Um UAVs are being used. So we can see some of the future that's coming before us, and we need to adapt and adopt these things. However, new technology is very expensive. And to be able to adopt that technology, um, we need the funds to be able to do it. We are the subject matter experts. We know what needs to happen, and we need to figure out how do we get on the cutting edge of this. And we're gonna, you know, a lot of the ideas are gonna be disregarded. Investigate them and disregard them. They're not gonna work. Um, but there are gonna be some very good ideas that will make a difference in patient outcomes. I also see this in parallel as um do we see do we need the same number of responders? Can we rely upon this technology? Right. And so for many areas across the nation, uh, number of calls um per year or number of calls at any one time is is uh often one. Right? For us in Boulder, it is very common uh throughout the year to have multiple days of multiple calls simultaneously, right? And so we need a team that's big enough and uh neighbors that are willing to help us uh because we just get so many calls. But if we now can can use technology to respond to some of these calls, could we reduce the size of our team? How many of these autonomous things, robots things do we need? I don't know. Um and so we need to be able to have critical uh conversations and and really think through some of this stuff and not just sit back and respond.

Teal Harbin 31:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I completely agree. We need to be proactive, not reactive, when it comes to preparing for the future and adjusting to times. It is very interesting. Technology is definitely something to factor in, but we also have to factor in the population itself, which lately has been grown in includes more than just the outdoor recreation economy, the includes more than just the hiker who's lost or the individual hanging off the side of a cliff by one little tiny strand of rope and is in critical condition. I really don't think AI is going to be able to take over that one, or even uh a drone or right, we actually need someone there who is an expert uh in medicine and rescue that can do respond to that person. But then we also have an increase in dementia patients, those with Alzheimer's, those, you know, that's why we're working on our special populations course. Um, the wilderness is becoming more and more accessible to different groups. And so what we're seeing is we are having more searches. We are having, uh, I feel that technology for a little while decreased the number of searches because we knew where someone was at. But now with the growing elderly population, we're starting to see a shift where SAR teams are being utilized to look for someone who has dementia that maybe has been lost off trail. Uh, we have that happen here in New Mexico all the time. Washington has a huge issue. That's why we're focusing on that special populations course. But um, what I'm saying is we have to consider all of those aspects and be ready to adjust for it. Um, will we need more SAR responders that are specialized in searching for those types of subjects? And maybe our rescue team will need less responders because of the technology that's now, but who knows, right? But we everything needs to be considered. And the thing is, we can't just apply a blanket statement, as you know, to all of search and rescue across the United States, because it's really going to depend on that micro environment that that particular search and rescue team is serving. Just as you said, Swift water rescue, what technology exists in Swiftwater Rescue that that team will have to adopt in the very near future? I don't know, right? I'm not too sure. Um, but that's that's what that particular team needs to consider. Whereas another team who's focused purely on higher altitude, uh, more mountaineering type rescues, they they don't have to consider the latest and greatest technology in swift water rescue necessarily. So yeah. Um that's where I think, though my concern is that if if search and rescue teams are not advocating for themselves to be able to give themselves sustainability, which means resources and funding and the support of infrastructure, and that also leads to adaptability, that's where I worry that the other agencies will be there to fill in the gaps because they do have more resources, they do have more funding, infrastructure, adaptability. And why? Well, it's because they've advocated for themselves and now they're in a great position and they're also well known. Fire is well known, EMS is well known, law enforcement's well known. Um, so this is where you know, if who would advocate for search and rescue?

Jeff Sparhawk 35:05

It's it has to be us, yes, exactly. Yep. Um, so I would uh uh suggest a couple of things. One, um we have uh here in Boulder um an example during the Marshall Fire, where uh we had a rescue, a very, very, very windy day. Um and we had uh a father and son who went and climbed uh the third flat iron, one of our rock formations here, and uh got in trouble and needed some assistance. And uh so we were responding up to that. Uh the martial fire was going on. Well, from the third flat iron, you can see the entire area of the fire. And so we were responding with our 25, 30, 35 um uh backcountry search and rescue responders while every firefighter in 150 miles or more was responding to that fire. Our houses were burning while we're rescuing people, right? We could see our houses. There's not enough responders for those kinds of outlier situations. How often are those outlier situations going to continue or increase? I don't know. That's a climate change question, probably. Um, however, this this last weekend, we had a fire at Chautauqua Park, just below the third flat iron, actually. Um, and we had firefighters heading to that, we had, you know, uh uh aviation responding to that. And we got a call for a rescue that we had to drive right by the fire to get to the rescue. And so this is where I think we have to work together, we have to collaborate, we have to um figure out those relationships, but we need multiple different types of emergency services, and we need to respect each other as to what we are all doing, right? And and we've had big fires here where search and rescue is called in to assist on the proofy, and that makes a lot of sense, right? We need to have the capability and the capacity to expand and contract as as makes sense, right? Kind of a basic ICS idea. Um, but yes, we do need to advocate for ourselves, and we need to um quite frankly, do the stuff that volunteers don't want to do. Is a big piece of it. And I think that starts with we need teams that are sophisticated organizations, business organizations, probably, although in Colorado we have uh teams that volunteer directly to sheriff's offices, so they don't exist outside the sheriff's office. Um, and we have nonprofit corporations that are teams. And for me, the um you have to have business practices where you can say, hey, this is how we spend our money, this is how we do our training, you know, we have um audited financial statements, we have a history of treating people internally and externally uh correctly, right? If if we're gonna stand up and say we are professionals, we have to earn that first. We have to earn the respect. And yes, part of that is on the response side, but part of that's on the administration side as well. And that's the hardest piece I've found is that to to run these teams is really difficult. A lot of work, a lot of time. And most teams don't necessarily have somebody who had brings in that experience and that desire to really understand that this is the foundation of the team. You don't get to do the fun stuff if you don't do the hard, boring, detailed work.

Teal Harbin 39:08

Yeah.

Jeff Sparhawk 39:09

Yeah, right. That's the bottom line of it. And you've gotta um you've gotta recognize that as a team. And maybe that's you need multiple types of team members, some that are administrative only and some that are response only, or some that are mixed. I don't know. Every every area is gonna be a little bit different. Um, but I think there's another piece here that we should talk about, which is the culture and the history, right? In Colorado, we have an incredible history. Um, organized backcountry search and rescue has been going on for over 75 years. And um we have thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of calls under our belts in the worst conditions, in the worst weather uh that Colorado has. We have had one death of a volunteer responder on an incident. Um we can't screw up that history, right? And that that death was a pilot, um uh but not having uh uh anybody killed on the ground is is uh a piece of pride, but from my standpoint, it's also a huge stressor. We're responding every single day. We have to continue that legacy. And and we have other um uh uh traditions and a heritage of what we do. Part of that heritage is we don't really put ourselves forth as heroes, right? And I think that's right. I think that um we don't want the individual hero on our teams. It doesn't work for what we do, right? The teams themselves are heroes, but it is a team effort, and we need to recognize the sacrifice and the the work done um by everybody. And I I was fortunate enough. Um Tom Hornbein was one of the founders of Rocky Mountain Rescue. Um and he went on to to climb Everest and with first American on the first American team to climb Everest and things like that. Um but I spent a lot of time talking with him and learning what happened in the 40s when RMR was founded. Why? Why was it founded? And I don't know that um those the why has really changed that much, right? We're still doing the same type of thing, and there's been 75 years of thought put into this. Let's recognize that and let's proactively choose what pieces of our culture are we gonna choose to change? Are we gonna choose to improve? How are we gonna adapt that? So I think there has to be an understanding of history before you start looking at the future.

Teal Harbin 42:18

Yeah, I I completely agree. Um, you know, you you talk about the different aspects that a search and rescue team needs to have, which also shows you areas, can show the team areas where they need to focus their advocacy. But what you're talking about is what I call the triangle of, you know, there's different names, the performance triangle, the innovation triangle, the professionalism triangle. Um, but search and rescue teams, they need systems and processes, they need a healthy team culture, and they need skilled and prepared responders. That's the that's the triangle. If culture is weak and toxic, the responders suffer, right? Those systems and processes don't perform as well. If the systems and processes are weak, they don't have those business operations or standardized way of training the team, whatever. Then you know what, you could have the most skilled responders ever. You're not gonna, it's not gonna be effective when it comes to the mission. And then of course, yeah, if you don't have skilled responders, I mean, why are you there? So, um, and it's a risk to everyone, right? And so that's where it's like, you know, I liken it to the triangle, but that's again where you can look, teams can look at that and see, okay, where is advocacy possibly needed? Do we have a culture that we're existing in where our team maybe doesn't have the respect from our sheriff's office that we think we need? Or we're just not, maybe we have the respect, but we're just not recognized as that valuable. We're seeing as the backup or whatever it is. It's like, okay, well, that shows you where you need to advocate. You need to, we need to build up our presence and our value. With the community and in the eyes of the sheriff. And this is where we're going to focus. Um, Albuquerque Mountain Rescue, they actually created just what how you stated, maybe there's going to be different team roles. They created the position of the public relations officer. And that is the individual who is the one that is consistent in interacting with the other outside agencies, is very diplomatic, putting the best foot forward for the team. No matter if the team uh officers change, like president, vice president, all that, that public relations officer, he's the one there that says, Oh, by the way, county sheriff, let me introduce you to our new president and can give the new president of the team a rundown on the individuals that are operating within and around the county. So I thought AMRC did that really well. Um, but goes to your point of you need to have maybe dedicated roles to that, because not every volunteer is going to be up for advocacy, uh, especially if it involves legislation, like in our case, uh, you know, in New Mexico last year, that was exhausting. That was time consuming and very stressful. Um, and I'm happy it passed, but uh, you know, I chose not to do it again this legislative session. Uh, and and or at least wait and hand it over to someone else because yeah, and and that would just burn a team out if they were expecting all of their volunteers to do that. So um let's go ahead and focus on some more concrete actionable things that search and rescue teams can do to advocate for themselves. Um so let's go ahead and bring it down first to the county level. Teams that might be under a sheriff uh or maybe are operating within a unique microclimate of the outdoor recreation economy. Um, what do you think are some examples of how they can start advocating for themselves, those teams, those responders?

Jeff Sparhawk 46:06

Um So at the local level, I think, and I'm gonna give you the Colorado model. I don't necessarily understand how it works in every other state, but um in Colorado, every county has to have um uh three county commissioners. They have to have a coroner, they have to have a sheriff, they have to have a surveyor. Um but in in my mind, we as a team need each each team needs some degree of a business plan as to what are we doing, where are we going. And that includes who are our uh who are our clients, if you will, um, and who are our partners. And I see elected officials as partners. And so uh in Colorado, county commissioners are the only ones that can raise taxes, and they control the purse of the county. And having relationships with them is probably a good idea, right? We work in Colorado, the sheriff is responsible to coordinate search and rescue within their county. They have to use local resources before they reach out to the state. Obviously, we have to have a relationship with sheriffs at the local level. Um, and and to build that respect and trust, uh, they need to see that, yeah, if I call on these folks, they're gonna be there and they're gonna do it uh what needs to get done. Um, I also think the coroners matter, right? We recover bodies and we need to have a relationship with that coroner. Yeah, we like you're talking about with AMRC. Is that a single person who's uh got those relationships? Is it multiple people? I don't know, everybody's got to work that out for themselves, but you do have to see those partnerships as valuable, they're time consuming. Um, they might not be all that much fun to go sit in another meeting, yeah. But you got to do it. There's there's no way around it. You have to have those relationships. I think you also need to have relationships with your local um outdoor rec community. Right here in Boulder, we're really fortunate uh to have a ton of um gear companies, a ton of retailers, a ton of guide services, uh, a ton of advocacy groups. And uh whether it's the Access Fund or the Caro Snowwheel Association, or you know, pick pick your uh stewardship, conservation, advocacy. Uh they're all out there. They're all on public lands where we do most of our work. And we are a part of that whole big system, right? It is a big cloud with lots of different connections all over the place. Back to the case.

Teal Harbin 49:03

That brings up the land use agencies as well, right? To have a good relationship with the land use agencies. I mean, that's that's critical, I think.

Jeff Sparhawk 49:12

Uh yeah, yes, very much so. Um and years ago, um, and this was when I was when I was leading RMR, uh we had some um concern, I guess I'd say, uh, between our climbing community, right? We have a huge climbing community here in Boulder. Um and we chose to proactively go talk with the climbing community and reach out to them and attract members who were climbers. And it was a lot of work and a lot of effort was put in. And we work closely with one of our state parks and um our open space and mountain park, our municipal open space and mountain parks here. Um, and now we've built that through through advocating for ourselves, we've built the situation where if somebody on some online forum or or wherever uh asks a question or says something derogatory about a rescue, the climbing community here jumps on them and and says, No, you don't understand. Without them, we're all screwed. And they do a hell of a job. Um, and so I think that the members, the responders, have the ability to, you know, these are our supporters. Yeah, they're our clients, but they're also our supporters because we've worked that kind of thing out here at the local level.

Teal Harbin 50:46

Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think that's great. I mean, I think this is a good example of like advocacy doesn't mean lobbying necessarily, especially at the team level. The team level, it you're really building those relationships within your community and showing your value. Now, there might be times where, yes, your team might have to either uh support legislation that's supportive of SAR, might um the volunteers might be asked to participate in that, similar to again, the bill we've pushed forward, what Carrie Lee is doing and others are doing up in Washington right now. But I don't know if you're allowed to answer this. And if not, it's okay. But since you're an attorney, I have to. Uh, a lot of search and rescue teams are 501c3s, correct? And what the what I hear a lot is, oh, well, we can't do anything legislation, we can't do anything lobbying because it's going to completely jeopardize our team because we're a 501c3. What do you say to that? Because um, yeah, we found that that wasn't entirely the case here in New Mexico.

Jeff Sparhawk 51:55

It's absolutely not the case, actually. Um however, you know, if a team chooses to make that decision as a team, I can understand that, and that's fine. We don't want to get involved in that. Yeah, I say that that's fine, but uh but recognize that you are now as a team not protecting your members, not acting in the best interest of your responders because you've put your head in the sand. And you have to see a bigger picture. So um, you know, we don't have enough time to get into um IRS regulations or state-by-state regulations of all of this stuff. But um I would suggest very briefly, uh 501c3 must stay away from uh elections, elections for office. Don't touch them. Don't touch them at all. Um however, if it's legislation you're talking about, uh you can be involved. And quite frankly, I think you have a duty to be involved. Um not uh not a legal duty, but uh more of a moral duty uh to be involved and understand what's going on. Um and so should you be talking about um marijuana, right? Colorado thing. Marijuana. Uh probably probably not. You know, that that's out of your scope. But if it has to do with search and rescue, uh, I think you need to be involved. I think you need to be careful about um what the laws say, about how much money, how much uh how many resources you could put towards this kind of thing. But a 501c3 uh definitely can uh advocate for itself uh on a on a legislative level.

Teal Harbin 53:35

Yeah, this is kind of full circle on you know why an attorney is some is a good thing to have in search and rescue.

Jeff Sparhawk 53:42

Well, and so I uh let me let me take this one step further for CSAR, right? The association uh across Colorado for Backcountry Search and Rescue, right? We're the association of all the teams. We have an awesome board of directors that is from throughout the state, um, but they all come right now from search and rescue. They understand they're they are practitioners of search and rescue, or have been. We're not great at fundraising, right? Search and rescue in general is not very good at it. We're we're great running up and down mountains and doing other stuff. Um, but asking for money is not why people get involved typically. So um, along with the association, now in Colorado, we have the CSAR foundation. And part of this is a humble recognition that we can't do it all. And we don't have these skills and we don't have the interest uh for some of this stuff, but these services need to happen. And so we created a foundation and it's in its infancy, but the intent is to try to help support all of the teams, not just CSAR, um, with money.

Teal Harbin 54:52

Yep.

Jeff Sparhawk 54:53

Right?

Teal Harbin 54:53

And Washington is going in that direction too, right? State of Washington. Yeah.

Jeff Sparhawk 54:58

Um and then likewise, and that's a 501c3. Um, likewise, we have created the coalition, the BSAR coalition. Um so we have an association, a foundation, and a coalition. The coalition is a 501c4. A 501c4 does not have the same um restrictions in terms of political activity that a 501 has. And so we, again, recognizing that we don't have really the political acumen to deal with all of the ins and outs of what happens at the state capitol or with legislators or the governor. Let's trust people who want the best for us. And let's bring them inside. And let's train them and try to help them understand our unique culture and then ask them to go advocate on our behalf.

Teal Harbin 55:52

Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And this is great because this is this is now we've gone from county level to state level, which is how I wanted to progress. And, you know, I think you've hit on some really important points. One, Colorado has an overarching SAR association that helps with a lot of these things. Um King County Search and Rescue has an association that helps with a lot of things, these things. Uh and again, just referencing New Mexico, since I'm I'm here in New Mexico and I know what New Mexico is like, we have our um our search and rescue council, right? However, the difference between King County Search and Rescue Association and Colorado Search and Rescue Association and the council here in New Mexico is that Colorado and Washington are paying people, have people that are paid to do that work. You are being paid to do this work. Um, Carrie Lee's being paid to do this work in Washington. And here in New Mexico, it's all volunteer, which is still effective, but I think not as effective because they obviously have their own lives and day jobs and everything else. Um, I do think there has to be a proper structure that states do need, um, if it doesn't exist already, do need some other sort of statewide association with paid members that are dedicated to look out for search and rescue and advocate for search and rescue. And then I agree, um, maybe a dedicated 501c4. That is that is what they do. They advocate new legislation. They go and talk to legislators that are experts in that. And that's where the teams know they can go to them to talk and be represented by them and not have to worry too much about this whole 501c3, 501c4. But yeah, so I I think that's that's very interesting and things for search and rescue teams to consider. Um last thing on the state level, I do just briefly want to talk about before we wrap up this conversation with what we think is needed on the national level. Uh, but um at the state level, when it comes to advocating for search and rescue, no matter how it's done, whether it's a team going to do it, uh, a statewide agency, 51c4, whatever, there's something that you said at the beginning of this podcast that I really resonate with. And that is what I think helped us push our bill forward. And that was we had data and we had a story. And so we had data of the cost of what a search and rescue mission is, uh, like what it costs taxpayers and the state. Um, we had we had lives lost. That's a that's a pretty significant number, right? Um, we had the numbers of how many missions and the the how many responders we have across the state. And then of course we use that to paint the story of hey, we are a specialty service that needs to be called alongside fire EMS and police when there's a search and rescue mission. We are not backup, we are not called hours, days, weeks later. That's why we have this death, uh, this number of people who have died higher than it should be, right? We just need to be called at the same time and respond alongside the other agencies at the same time. That was our story. That was the data we used. And it was extremely effective and it pushed forward, right? With minimum stress. There's still stress. Um, but yeah, so that's where what can teens or other SAR agencies start doing now to uh advocate for themselves to be ready with that data to be able to paint that story?

Jeff Sparhawk 59:44

Collecting the data, obviously, is a major portion of this. And I would tell you that that is um hard uh to do from a I just spent two hours or 30 hours on an incident. Uh I don't want to be recording data right now. Um, how do we get it? But then disparate data sets that have using different definitions for you know, in Colorado, what is a backcountry search and rescue incident? How do we count that number? What does it mean? When does it start? When does it end? How many hours are involved? Um, I would tell you that an incident is not an incident, is not an incident, in that in Boulder, you know, we get lunchtime calls where we can go take care of them in an hour and be back at work. Uh other teams in Aspen, they almost never get those types of calls. It's you know six hours minimum to go do something. Um, so if you're comparing incidents to incidents, number of incidents doesn't really matter. It's really person hours that matter. That's a much harder number to get to, right? How many times were you called out and how many person hours were put forward here? How many dollars were spent out of pocket by these responders?

Teal Harbin 1:01:06

Exactly. I mean, moral of the story is if you have an issue and you want to try to advocate for a solution, you need to gather the data to prove that it's an issue and to support the story that you're going to tell. And that might look different. It it's not just tracking in D4H how many incidents you've had.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:01:30

Right, right. Well, and and it is also uh painting the the impact picture. Right. With this solution, then something can be better.

Teal Harbin 1:01:42

Exactly. And then that's what you use to educate those that are making the decisions, the legislation, maybe the other agencies. Um, I have for a long time, you know, I'm stepping away from New Mexico search and rescue, but I've I felt for a long time what would be really awesome would be to have a biannual report that is sent to legislators on just the state of search and rescue, the latest statistics, just so that one, we stay top of mind to legislation, but two, we're continuing to educate them on our needs, on the community's needs. And then maybe when there's some random conversation or decision that's about to be made without us even knowing about it, uh, maybe one of those legislators says, hmm, actually, you know what? Maybe we should consult search and rescue and see what they need. Or maybe, maybe this additional funding should include the search and rescue teams and the safety of our outdoor community and not just purely on pushing forward and developing new trails and bringing in new more tourists and et cetera, et cetera.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:02:49

Additionally, I think at uh local or statewide level, and I this probably affects national as well, but uh, we have developed here in Colorado um an incredible program of what we call it's the PI program, public information and education. And so um public safety education is a big thing here, right? Let's reduce the number of calls, put ourselves out of business, right, is the idea. Um but we have a duty to try to help keep people safe, proactively, not reactively. Um and we um we're a news story every single day. And we need to recognize the the needs of the media, whether it's social media or traditional media, and we need to have our story told as well in an appropriate way. We're not seeking heroes, but we do need to be, for us, in every newspaper in Colorado. We need to be on Facebook and Instagram and whatever else is coming down the pike so that the public has the real picture from the responders of who we are and what we do. We need to be able to tell our story there. And the legislature, they see that stuff. Right? We have a big call. My phone rings with decision makers at the state level saying, what's going on? How can I help? Right. And so we need to build that army of the engaged um that are outside of our community, but are willing to support. And we do that through public information.

Teal Harbin 1:04:27

Yeah, exactly. And that's an incredible milestone. When those individuals, those decision makers are reaching out to you, that means that you have been effective in in letting in making your value known, right? And so I think that's something to uh all SAR teens and associations can strive for is like we're we're so well known that they reach out to us, you know, and then you know that that's a pretty significant milestone. You've been successful.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:04:51

Um yeah, it's it's a work in progress. But yes, I agree with you.

Teal Harbin 1:04:54

Well, and it's and it's always a work in progress, right? You can't just there's at no point can you just say, oh, great, we've done it. Now it's time to sit back. Uh, no, that's exactly how our New Mexico Search and Rescue Act that was passed in 1970 was completely forgotten and no one knew about it.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:05:12

Right, right, right.

Teal Harbin 1:05:13

What do you think um is needed at the national level? The way I see it is we have being more in the business world and on the business side of things in the outdoor recreation economy. I am seeing a massive push to continue to develop the outdoor recreation economy in each state. And so there's a massive push right now to have an outdoor recreation division or equivalent thereof in each and every state. And then that division is focused solely on developing the outdoor recreation economy in their state. And of course, some states already have that, right? Colorado, New Mexico now has it, even though it's very new, started in 2019, Washington. So, like What do you think is needed at the national level to continue to advocate for search and rescue and make sure we are considered? And when other states do push forward their own legislation to correct their own issues at their state level, there's maybe some national support as well.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:06:16

I believe, I could be wrong here, but I believe uh that's been called the confluence of states.

Teal Harbin 1:06:20

Yes, that is exactly.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:06:22

Um and so the OREC office here in Colorado um has had three directors across its lifespan. Um Luis Benitez started this, um Nathan Fay uh took the reins for a while, and now Connor Hall is there. They have all been incredible champions and close friends for search and rescue in Colorado. Um they have been um essential in everything that we have been able to accomplish. Um and so uh I think that's the well, a connection with um the economic side of the world and the search and rescue side of the world. I think that our local, state, and national legislators need to know what's going on. And they are partners, they are clients, if you will, for us. Um and we need to spend the time talking with them. And I'm sure they want to hear from us. Uh you know, I I know some of the the Colorado delegation. Um, and I would say things such as every time you create a new wilderness area, it might increase tourism, it might do be the right thing from a conservation standpoint, it might be the right thing from lots of other standpoints, but there are costs. Right? For us, responding to an incident in a in a federal wilderness area is harder than a non-wilderness area. It's got more costs associated with to us.

Teal Harbin 1:07:56

Right? And restrictions as well, like drone use and things like that.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:08:00

And ability to train and all kinds of things. Yeah, absolutely. And so um I do think we need to advocate at a national level as well. I do recognize, however, that when you talk about the Western states, right? Essentially draw a line from from Montana to New Mexico, um that's where the the large majority of public land, federal public lands, are in the United States, right? So it's some degree a Western issue.

Teal Harbin 1:08:26

And search and rescue as well, right? That goes back to the OSHA law that was was being amended, and it was very strictly it was the narrowly seen as an eastern from an eastern perspective, and was not considering how search and rescue is functions and is structured western side of the United States. And, you know, of course the Mountain Rescue Association did a great job advocating for that. And that's an example of like how you know we do need advocacy. Um but yeah, I mean I those things are gonna continue to come up.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:08:57

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, going back to your point about um having paid individuals, I think the evolution from all volunteer teams. And I think there's a great public appeal to we are all volunteer, um, support us, and it will make a difference. Um however, I also think that it's too complicated, there's too much work, there's too many specialized things, whether it's law or um accounting or advocacy, uh all of these things. We need to start evolving towards uh where we're in control, we're the ones driving the boat here to say we want this model. And to say, hey, we need to have a paid lobbyist. We need to have somebody who can can go to Washington and talk on our behalf.

Teal Harbin 1:09:49

Yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean, I think I think, you know, eventually we do need to trend towards maybe a hybrid system uh similar to, again, Colorado and Washington, where you have those paid individuals that are there to do that job, but then you also have the volunteers that are the ones in the field and those paid individuals are supporting them. Um and same, same with with lobbying. Yeah, I I completely agree. You also said um, you know, we have to we have to have our autonomy in that. And that's that's my fear is that if we don't advocate for ourselves at the county, state, and national level, we will eventually lose our autonomy. And funding, um, how search and rescue operates. Again, the OSHA amendment is a good example. Um, the confluence of states is another good example. And so it's just like, okay, we we need to be there. We need to be at the table.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:10:49

Yeah, and I think it's actually it there's another facet to that, which is um as the outdoor rec space um evolves, we need to be at that policy table as well. So for instance, a local um uh land manager and entrepreneur say, Hey, I want to put up a new mountain bike park or a set of mountain bike trails, or whatever it might be. Uh zip lining is another big thing here in Colorado, right? Where uh uh these these uh attractions, if you will, are put in what happens if somebody's injured? Well, search and rescue wasn't on the front end of that, so now we've got to react. And that might be really hard, uh depending upon what the the situation is. Um and we really should be at the table on the front end, right? But again, who wants to go to those meetings? Who wants to be essentially an elected official without being an elected official, right? To go do that kind of stuff. And so uh I think part of that also is my position. Um, or I have multiple positions, but all of my different hats. I have constituents. I don't have voters, but I have constituents and I'm representing them. I have to know understand what their needs are, what they think their best interests are, and bring those things together so that I can represent them appropriately.

Teal Harbin 1:12:24

Yeah. And that's what also brings the authority as well. Even if it's unofficial of like, oh, hey, this individual isn't here just to represent their own interests. They're here to represent search and rescue and the outdoor community and whatever else it might be. But um, this has been such an enlightening conversation. And so just to end this episode, is there any last thoughts or lessons you would like to share with the greater search and rescue community in regards to advocating for themselves?

Jeff Sparhawk 1:12:57

Um yeah, too. Um we are stronger together and we need each individual to act on advocacy.

Teal Harbin 1:13:12

Well, there you go. That's the point is you cannot rely on goodwill alone. You do have to have infrastructure in place um that is able to push forward and be sustainable and continue to advocate and bring in resources. Um, and that just goes back to the professionalism of teams and responders and so Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Sparhawk 1:13:30

And and you have yeah, you have to be at the table, right? You have to be proactively at that table, whatever the table is. Um otherwise you will be forgotten and you will um lose respect.

Teal Harbin 1:13:40

Exactly. All right. Well, uh thank you so much, Jeff, for being here. I mean, this is uh a little past our time, but I think definitely well worth it. And we could continue to discuss this topic as we have many, many times. But um I appreciate you so much and everything you're doing for the search and rescue community. And I'm so excited to see uh where you're gonna steer the community next.

Narrator 1:14:08

In search and rescue, you're not just a volunteer, you're a professional. Your team and your community expect you to deliver. That means being ready for more than patient care. You need skills in navigation, communication, helicopter safety, and incident command. With Base Medical, you can train like a pro. Our individual subscription gives you unlimited access to over 25 search and rescue courses for just $12.50 a month. Or choose our team subscription to standardize training across your entire team. Stay sharp, stay ready, learn more at base-medical.com.

Lauren Skonieczny 1:14:47

Wow, lots and lots of good stuff in that conversation. That was really informative, and you can really uh hear the expertise um and the experience that that Jeff brings to the table.

Teal Harbin 1:15:00

Yeah, exactly. Um, I think you know, one of my biggest takeaways is that for search and rescue, you know, we have to define our own future. And if we don't, someone else will. And it may not be what we want. And it probably would be to our advantage.

Lauren Skonieczny 1:15:15

Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's just really interesting how, yeah, forward-looking a lot of the conversations are, right? It's not about being reactive to how things are structured now, right? But more proactive. How can we shape the future? How can we make decisions that are going to tee the search and rescue community and by default the greater outdoor community for uh, you know, a better future to an outdoors that's more safe, inclusive, um, and teams that can really tackle what's coming next?

Teal Harbin 1:15:48

Yeah, I think the other thing that this highlights is there's just so many aspects of the outdoor recreation economy, right? Um, search and rescue is definitely an aspect of the outdoor recreation economy, the agencies, um, the other response agencies, the land use agencies, the outdoor recreationalists themselves, the outdoor businesses, um, and state level offices. And so it it they all do need to come together to be able to create a system to be able to create a an infrastructure that is truly safe for the outdoor community and truly supports those safety nets like search and rescue that are often volunteer and underfunded and all of that. Um but I also one of the things that I think this conversation highlights, um, a lot of teams do I think get stuck in seeing things from just their level. And that's completely okay. And they may have certain issues with other agencies or certain problems on their team. And when they lift their head up and kind of look at other teams, they realize, oh, wait, I'm I'm not alone in this. And I'm actually part of a bigger system here. And I think we need more SAR responders to be able to just kind of like look up and start to think on a systems level and start to move things forward on a systems level, and then we can control our future a little bit more.

Lauren Skonieczny 1:17:17

I love that. Yeah, I I really love that idea of like an expansive mindset about the different things that that teams can do in the different uh yeah, places in the ecosystem that that we can occupy. Um and I think that as we look forward to the next season of this podcast, that's gonna be a big thing that we keep in mind is who are the who are the stakeholders, right? And it's maybe not just the traditional folks that we think of. Um, it's a much more, to your point, expansive ecosystem with a lot more stakeholders, a lot more people who care about the work. Um I'm excited for what the future holds.

Teal Harbin 1:17:52

That's the other thing, too, is like one thing I've noticed is um, you know, there does need to be a dedicated entity that's doing this for search and rescue in each state. And some states have that, some states do not. Or if they do have it, that entity isn't advocating like they should at the systems level, right? And so you interviewed um Carrie Lee Gannon the last podcast episode, right? Like she is doing what Jeff is, she's doing in Washington, what Jeff is doing in Colorado. Um, and you know, that is Jeff's job in Colorado is to advocate for SAR, to build resources. That is Carrie Lee Gannon's job. Uh Robert Garcia, who we interviewed early on in this uh podcast season, he's with the, he's the president of New Mexico Search and Rescue Council, right? They're also advocating and pushing forward and building out resources. Um, one team alone probably shouldn't be hold have that responsibility on their shoulders, right? And that's why I do think it does need to be that separate entity. And ideally it they should be paid. The difference between Colorado and Washington and New Mexico, Colorado and Washington, they have people that are actually paid to do exactly that for search and rescue. That is their job. Whereas in New Mexico, poor Robert, that's all volunteer and he works so hard, but he has his day job. And just think what he could accomplish if he was actually paid to do that for his job, right?

Lauren Skonieczny 1:19:14

Absolutely. Yeah. And just the alignment and consistency in terms of training and access and equipment. If you have somebody who's looking out for that as their full-time job, like the difference must just be absolutely night and day. Um, and I'm I'm really excited too about some of the contacts that, you know, to your point, you just named a few of the folks that we've talked to that other people in other states didn't even know that that existed. Um, so it's been a real honor and pleasure to just open, pull back the curtain a little bit on how states are doing things, what's working, and you know, some of the connections that we've made through the conversations here. You know, we've cross-pollinated a lot of that. Um, and I'm I'm really excited to kind of continue, to continue doing that. Um so looking forward here for us at the podcast, um, we are, as I mentioned earlier, we're wrapping up our first season. Teal and I have another conversation planned uh to kind of close out our our initial season here. And then we'll be taking a little bit of a hiatus to kind of look ahead and plan for season two. So there's always an open invitation for folks to reach out to us at hello at base-medical.com. If you have conversations you'd like to hear, um, you know, folks that are doing things really well that you want to highlight, questions, um, ideas, things that we can collaborate on as a community to ensure that we're constantly pushing our our our calling forward uh and supporting the people that are doing the work.

Teal Harbin 1:20:42

Yeah, thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Lauren. We'll see you the last episode of the season next time. All right. We'll see everybody soon. Thanks. Okay.

Lauren Skonieczny 1:20:53

SAR Mutual Aid is produced by Lawrence Genechny and Teal Harmon and presented by Base Medical. For more information, visit base-medical.com.