Math and Magic

L’Oréal’s Chief Marketing & Digital Officer Asmita Dubey joins Wolfgang Fengler on Data Talks to unpack the “math & magic” of modern marketing, blending creativity and technology, the rise of beauty tech, and what Gen Z and Gen X really want.

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Asmita. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Data Talks. Those of you who don't know, but I think most of you know Asmita Dubai chief Marketing and Digital Officer at L'Oreal marketer of the year and a lot of record recognitions, which would take a long time to cover. But so nice to have you on Twitter. It's my pleasure, Wolfgang, and thank you for the partnership for all these years. Uh, absolutely. We have been a long term partnership. We touch on a few points, but the main part I want to start with is also your personal journey, the person behind the data. We have one thing in common, which is most of our education was actually in our home country. And only then we left home. And so tell me about your upbringing in India and then how your global journey evolved. Absolutely. So my name is Asmita Dube, and I was born and raised in India. Like you said, and as a as a kid, I was good at math. A lot of, you know, Indian children are encouraged to study Stem subjects and still. Well, when I was a teenager, I used to love expressing myself, writing poetry, and I did a bit of both at that time. But when I went to college, I picked up a BSc in statistics, honours and a great, very, very good empirical grounding there. But even in Delhi University, I think I was like a. You like to multitask. So I ended up going and fighting elections in my college at that time, which was Hindu College, and became the magazine editor. So it went from, you know, being in computer science and maths classes to reading poetries and articles and designs for the whole thing. Uh, I finished my studies and joined advertising because I wanted that creative side of life. But advertising is a good way of being commercial in the creative side of life. And there I joined a typical agency with creative media. Everything did that for a few years, and then requested my management that I'd like to shift to media because there was so much work happening with numbers, and computers used to be new then, and it really fascinated me, and I felt I could do that. Well, uh, and it was a very unusual ask because people said, you're doing fine. Why do you want to change? And I said, I really think I know how to do that. And that, you know, on hindsight, it was very good. Again, you know, coming to the to the math of the whole advertising business was a good thing to understand. I moved to China with my family quite early on back in 2005 during my work in advertising, and got to know a country which was becoming more affluent, digitalized. The middle class was growing, and you could see a whole nation changing because from 2005 to 2017. For 12 years I was in China and that is where I joined L'Oreal. So when I joined L'Oreal, it was it was a wonderful turning point for me. Uh, also because, you know, L'Oreal has this culture of poets and patents. Uh, and it's a when beauty is an offer driven business, it is about desire. So we have beautiful brands and and, you know, the whole creativity of the brand building on one side. But on the other side, uh, it's a very analytical company. Super data driven has adopted Ization is championing beauty tech. So there is this, you know, this marriage of the math and magic comes to a very, very good point in my work and career today. I work in Paris now, uh, in a, in a global role, uh, you know, with the executive committee and with all the teams of Florida. Well, so many fantastic things to touch on. Asmita. Do you still write poetry? Do you still have time for that? Ah, I have to wait. And then then I'm like, kind of thinking. So I have two backup careers, one to write something and to teach math in primary school, so I may end up doing both. Well, if you need another backup, please call me before Asmita, but, uh. But, uh, on a different note, you just mentioned math and magic, and I think some describe it. Left brain and right brain. Walk us through your your philosophy how to be also effective as a as a leader. Also to the younger generation that that watches this. Uh, what would you tell them about the math and the magic? Yeah. You know, I think if we just look around us. Uh, there is a technological layer on all aspects of our consumers lives. You know, of course there is. They're transformative technologies like AI, gen, AI, agent AI, but there is also digital, large scale digital infrastructure. There is a growing service economy and all that is redefining consumer expectations. Consumer expectations in beauty also. So on one hand, all this technology is coming towards us and in marketing. And on the other hand, uh, we see an like immense creativity, creativity amongst beauty brands, beauty players, amongst the creator economy. They are moving at the speed of culture. So what we say is that we we want to augment marketing, and we want to augment marketing with the blend of this dual muscle. And this dual muscle is both creativity and technology, math and magic. Uh, you know, institution, the power of our brands as well as individuals. The the influence of the creator economy, where there are a lot of individual influences coming on to consumers. We want to recruit consumers in this world but also retain them. And we want to move with speed but also scale things. So there's always this dual muscle in order to build our brands in the short term. But you know, and and drive short term ROI but also build long term brand equity. So this is what we call like having these skills of this dual muscle of math and magic. Uh, because, uh, you know, the blend is very, very powerful in today's world. And we want to augment marketing like that. Mm. Well wonderful perspective. Asmita. The other aspect you mentioned, and also what we have a bit in common, is we moved around the world with our families and, and the other commonality is but I need to tell the audience I'm a bit older than Asmita, but we are still both generation X. I actually just published the report on Gen X and we have Gen Z children. Um, what's your perspective on generations and globalization and living a global life with with a family? Oh, that's that's such a nice and interesting question, both from personal as well as professional point of view. So it is true that, uh, that I have two boys who, who, who are very much Gen Z. They're in their early 20s and going, you know, an adult going from 18 to 19. And they're wonderful children. I mean, you know, I, I really like the Gen Z for for their values, for their idealism. Uh, and at the same time, uh, they are growing up and getting into the job market in a world which is slightly more uncertain than when I felt I was getting into the job market in the late 90s. And, you know, everything felt very, very optimistic. Uh, but this is a resilient generation. And if we talk about n it's it's a very, very large population. You know, in the end and this is some of the data from your side, when we look at the Gen Z, uh, from 2025 to 2030, there will be almost 400 million more Gen Z around the world. At the same time, there is a big significant part of the population who is growing more mature. And older people like you and me who are in our 50s and will be touching 60. So the boomers are there, and the boomers may go down in numbers, but the Gen X will increase and they will increase by almost 300 million people. Uh, and if you start now looking into in our work life, in beauty, in marketing around us, what are the differences between the Gen Z and the Gen X? I would just go back to the to the fundamentals of, of these people and how they consume and what they consume and all, and taking it a bit from the beauty lens, if you look at the Gen Z versus Gen X, look at the geography where they are more. So of course they are everywhere in the world, in every country but the center of gravity and the increase for the Gen Z, it is far more in the emerging markets because there is a lot of young populations, and these populations are growing in the emerging markets, and the Gen Z are the Gen X are more spread out across the world. They are absolutely, very, very influential in the developed world. So the geography itself is slightly different. If we are over skewing or over indexing on these populations, then when it comes to their product choices and what they consume, uh, the Gen Z are very experimental. I mean, they are deep into beauty. They want to learn, they want to test, they want to try. They love new fragrances. They want to try hair care products. Uh, so so there is a lot of experimentation going on there for as far as the Gen Z is concerned. Uh, they have routines and good routines on beauty. Uh, and then with increasing lifespan and increasing health span, with the, with the reframing of age and longevity. There are things coming. There are new needs coming to the Gen X, you know, whether it's fine lines, whether it's, uh, personalized beauty, biometric data, how to have a lifespan, health span, beauty span that is for them and make to measure for them. So the product choices are also I mean, we have to look at which generation is going to use what and what is most relevant for them. Then when it comes to like how the rules of engagement with these two generations. So rules of engagement are. Quite specific. I mean, we see everywhere around us the Gen Z is into into shorts. They have a small, you know, an attention span, which is very much about multitasking. They're on TikTok, they're on Reddit, they're on peer to peer reviews. They want to listen to other people like them to, to make their opinions about brands and products that they use into reviews and ratings. So those are the ways to engage with them. Uh, for the for the Gen X, I would say that we know the rules of engagement. The rules of engagement are still digital. So they are moving from television to connected TV to streaming. Uh, they are moving from, uh, sports to more, even more live sports, from entertainment to even more live entertainment to eventing. So the rules of engagement differ. And the last thing I would say, and in the current context at least, uh, uh, the sense of value for money is slightly different because the Gen Z is looking for the right product, right offer at the right price. Uh, and so our other age groups. But it is even more predominant for the Gen Z, because they can be very mindful of how they are consuming and what they are consuming at what price. Then then at L'Oreal, what we also define beyond the consuming class is the addressable target. And the addressable target is for our most beauty brands, and it is our core target group. And when we say it is our core target group, first, uh, we talk to people who are more than $22 per day per person income at purchasing power parity. And second, we put an age filter. So we talk to people who are more than 15 year old, because we also have a group policy that we do not address. We do not intentionally target children. So when we are targeting and it's an addressable target, it has to be more than 15 year old people that we are talking to. So that is the reason we define this further, you know, in terms of a core target. Thanks so much also for the deep partnership. And I think we did together a lot of interesting work. And your team was always very instrumental to help shape this beauty data model. I want to switch to a related topic that you have been also very prominent on Asmita, which is beauty tech, and I know you're equally passionate about. So tell us more about it. Also, I think you launch a number of products at Viva Tech about, again, this interplay also between the digital and the physical work, because ultimately beauty is still a physical product often, but there's also a digital element to it. So tell us about beauty, tech and what's yet to happen. Sure, with great pleasure. So it is absolutely your right that at L'Oreal we are championing beauty tech, you know, and beauty tech to us means a new kind of relationship with our consumers, one that is based on technology, on data and on AI. And we believe that that for today and for tomorrow, beauty tech is essential across many different layers. You know, it is essential to get to know our consumers more intimately. So whether it is to understand ingredients in more detail or understand real time consumer insights on TikTok and on Reddit, we need the use of technology to be able to do that and to percolate it to everyone around the world. At the same time, it is also important to astonish our consumers with the with great innovations. And when I say that we use beauty, tech and beauty tech is a way to to to bring elevated innovations. That is because take the example of air Light Pro. So Air Light Pro is this revolution in hair drying. Because in hair drying you use air and heat. But Airline Pro uses hair, air, heat and light because it uses a technology of infrared light, because of which the drying is faster and without any damage to the hair. So with beauty tech, we are bringing these innovations to our consumers, which which are absolutely novel and absolutely revolutionizing. Then beauty tech also elevates us beyond these devices and products to bring services to our consumers. And when I talk about services, we mentioned before that the service economy is growing. So we are bringing services which can help our consumers to, uh, you know, to, uh, to diagnose themselves, to treat themselves, to coach themselves, uh, you know, or to look at themselves on and compare like a virtual try on. So our virtual try ons on makeup and hair color are available for so many of our brands, on our websites and on retailer platforms. Our skin diagnosis is and you spoke about open source service. So we have skin diagnosis which is based on image recognition technology. But that is available as a physical device on the stores for brands like Lancome, heels, uh, you know. Uh, but they are also available on the website as a digital service. Yeah. So so we. And then there are services like, uh, spot scan where then we go one step further and start connecting it to a specific, uh, consumer need like acne and then advising routines to them, helping to make form habits, partnering with partners like Karm, which also help both mental and physical side of that. Uh, you know, uh, addressing that routine. Uh, so we bring a lot of services and these are part of beauty tech. And finally, what I would say is that we are also using beauty tech to augment the beauty consumer journey because the beauty consumer journey. And we spoke about it before, the consumer is adopting technology. This technology can be like, uh, streaming, scrolling, searching, shopping, all of that uses technology today. Uh, so beauty tech to us is across this value chain that we are using it. Mm. So so what purchase meta. And let me then use this discussion to think a bit ahead in the future. If you think of the three megatrends or three of what I think are the big megatrends, what is what is the rise of Asia? The second is digitalization and the third is aging and also premium ization to some extent with aging together. How do you see the beauty industry and L'Oreal in, say, 2030, which is a very short term? Surprisingly, it feels like short term. But then also 2040. Yeah. Okay. Uh. Future beauty. Uh, well, we we we believe that the appetite for beauty is very, very dynamic. You know, beauty also has a dopamine effect. So therefore the category is very resilient to any economic uncertainty. And exactly like you mentioned, if you look at the big consumer trends that are shaping the future of beauty today and tomorrow, I would say the three that you're mentioning and I'm going to come back to that. But to start with a very broad and, uh, macro trend where health, wellness, holistic well-being and beauty are all coming together. So consumers are much more health conscious and beauty and health are, you know, kind of talking to each other much more than before. Uh, so that is a big trend. And the second one, like you said, this reframing of aging, reframing of aging because of an increasing lifespan, because of an increasing health span. And therefore, there L'Oreal has come up with the wheel of longevity. Wheel of longevity is about all the biomarkers, you know, which start to define aging, understanding skin aging. Then we have come up with a device. We spoke about beauty tech, which is cell bio print, which measures some of these biomarkers. Then we have a product on Lancome absolu which is around longevity. So we are absolutely working on this reframing of aging point, just as we are working on health, wellness and beauty. The third trend, I would say, and it is shaping, is also. More expertise and more experiences both. And when we say more expertise, it's it's the pro it's the professional level expertise. It's about more performance. It's about being able to measure the biomarkers, you know, of our skin, uh, of of the beauty, you know, in whatever shape and form that we want to understand the hair or the skin, you know, for us, uh, and the rise of Asia and related to that, I think everywhere in the world there is also a consumer trend in a, in a more enhanced pride in their own heritage, you know, so because of that, we see around us the rise of Chinese beauty, uh, Japanese beauty, Korean beauty, Indian beauty. And we have to move at the speed of culture. And we have to be locally relevant to our consumers to be able to engage with them everywhere around the world. And the last one, which is hopefully a bit the current context in 2025 is, is the consumers are also concerned about mindful consumption and simplifying their routines and more value for money. So those are the things we see around us. And we are very much on those trends. And we are very, very excited about the future of beauty and the also the future of beauty using technology, you know, in the future. So I'll put ask me to thank you. So let me add a final question on that global beauty market in the future of beauty. Also the future of big beauty companies, L'Oreal being the number one in the world. And again, you defended the number one position for a long time. Other companies have been struggling I think also a bit linked to China. And then there's new players emerging and new trends emerging. How does L'Oreal you know, it's not always easy to defend your position as number one. And I know in China L'Oreal comes again a little bit stronger this year. Um tell us the the global landscape and the positioning of the company vis a vis the competitors. Wow. I would I mean, you know, uh, we love competitions, but I it's it's it's less about. You know, what I would talk to you about is, again, to first say that, uh, you know how optimistic we are about the appetite of beauty everywhere around the world? Yeah. And that appetite of beauty is is very resilient. Because even this year, one could estimate that the beauty market would grow at around 4% and faster than the GDP around the world. Uh, then when we come to L'Oreal, we and our CEO was talking about it, uh, you know, in the half yearly plan that we have a beauty stimulus plan. And when we talk about a beauty stimulus plan, it comes back to our DNA of innovation, where we bring the best of products serving the consumers, uh, looking after their trends. And it could be products like, uh, a new absolu, or it could be the skin ceuticals stocks, or it could be Prada men's fragrances. And all of these products are fantastic innovations that we are bringing to our consumer. And our consumer has the appetite for more expertise, more performance, better products, and this is how we keep our edge. Then I would also add one more thing that we are also and we spoke about technology. So for us, for us innovation is in our DNA and innovation is about science, technology and creativity. Yeah. And we do we innovate across the three of them. And that is again how we keep our edge. Uh, and the last point is AI is coming. And, you know, uh, we are kind of preparing ourselves for that. We know that the consumer journey is getting augmented across the funnel. We know marketing end to end value chain is getting augmented. So on one hand, we are bringing new agent AI services like Beauty Genius, which is a 24 over seven available in our consumers pocket because consumers are learning new ways to discover product with AI. And then on the other hand, we're also augmenting our marketeers, and we are bringing them, uh, you know, tools like Korea Tech, Korea Tech is our gen AI beauty content platform and tool on which they can do hands on. They can create, uh, backgrounds and, you know, uh, different shots and put their products inside them at a much faster pace and learn this new technology. So we like I said, we, we, we kind of are our, our pillars of innovation are science, technology and creativity. Well it seems opportunities are everywhere and still. And I guess it's just the imagination and the organization that that is needed just to execute on it. As you close as meta, I have two more points that maybe you want to come back to the to something we touched on earlier, including our our generation, our children. If you look at your children's generation, what what assuming their friends or them want to go into marketing. What's your advice to them? My advice to them is I absolutely welcome them to come to marketing. I think it's a field where and again, I come back to the point of dual muscle, the new generation that is coming to marketing. It is such an exciting time for marketing because technology is coming to creativity and marketing like never before, and therefore they have this opportunity to to look at marketing with this, you know, dual muscle that they have. They can use their left brain as well as right brain. They can play with both creativity and technology. And that is such an exciting time for marketing for people who are coming into marketing now. Well, there's something else we have in common because my daughter is in that field. She's actually in Amsterdam, which connects actually to me. Who's in your team as well? Um, we will end this podcast as meta traditionally with a, you know, special question, which is do you have a favorite number and tell us the story around your favorite number? Well, I would love since we have been talking about both math and magic. I will put a number which is on, you know, or probably covering both first. Infinity. Infinity is not a number, but infinity has the magic in it because it has the magic of infinite possibilities. Uh, and I love that number. And then, of course, I also love very much. There's only one number you asked for, but the other number I love is zero. And in the complexity of today's world, I think we have to constantly come back to Ground Zero and look at things in very fundamental ways. Uh, which is where it helps us to give clarity and direction. Wow. I didn't expect that answer. And maybe the world lost the mathematician in you that, uh, really appreciate to be with you as meta in this podcast, please listen to us join for the next version. We have a number of big leaders as well, but many thanks, I will. Congratulations.