How Michigan Won A Gritty Title Game Plus What NIL Is Doing To March Madness

Michigan wins a title game that never lets you breathe, and the box score barely explains it. We’re sick-voice and all, but we had to talk through Michigan vs UConn because it’s the kind of win that defines a program: survive an ice-cold start from three, win the paint, hit free throws, and still hold on when late mistakes make the final minutes feel like a trap door.

From there, we zoom out to the bigger NCAA tournament picture. NIL and the transfer portal are changing March Madness, and we think it’s a big reason the true Cinderella run is getting rarer after the first weekend. Older rosters, more roster movement, and a new generation of coaches are flattening the field in a way that rewards experience over surprise. We also pause to say thanks for the record views and the wave of new subscriptions, because the audience growth has been wild.

Then it’s NBA time: the play-in tournament, the first-round matchups, and our honest take on why the format exists. That turns into the inevitable LeBron debate, how ESPN-driven narratives shape “greatest of all time” talk, and why watching the eras matters when you rank legends. We close with a Masters recap and a deep sports-history detour into Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, and the books that make golf stories feel bigger than golf.

Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review. What’s your biggest take from Michigan vs UConn, and are you keeping the NBA play-in?

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Sports Talk Live with Steve and Justin. Justin, record a little video for us to start out rather than our usual video. And I apologize for my voice. I'm a little under the weather. But here you are. Justin.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello and welcome to another episode of Sports Live with Steve and Justin. Make sure you click like and subscribe to the channel. You can also find us at steveandjustin.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

There it is. There you have it. Welcome to Sports Talk live with Steven Justin, and you can see Justin in his full Michigan regalia.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Good afternoon, Your Honor.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

What is going on?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

You're under the weather, is what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, a little bit. My voice is shot. I'm a little tired.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

What it made you a hot toddy?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Yeah, well. Maybe I'm just sick because it's tax week.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Don't we all know that?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Everything's pushing stopped for taxes.

Michigan Vs UConn Title Game

SPEAKER_02 2:01

So anyway. Here we are. What'd you think of the game? We might as well talk about it. You wore all that crap.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yeah. Obviously happy with the outcome. It was a long day for me. I was I started the day at Yukon with my son and then uh was able to get home. We did the podcast, and then I found myself in front of the TV trying not to fall asleep, a tip-off. But uh for me, you know, I was on the edge of my seat the whole time because I just was waiting for you know the proverbial shoe to drop and for Yukon to start to pull away at some point, but that just never happened. Michigan got out to a decent lead, and we talked about that last week that I thought that Yukon would be able to stay within striking distance the whole game, and they did. The first half was only, was it four points, I think? It was 33-29 at the half, but Yukon dictated the tempo. I mean, they played their game, they played the way they wanted to. It was it was ironic to watch a big east basketball team kind of run the clock like a Big Ten football team would do. You know, it was tough, it was uh gritty, you know, they slowed it down, and Michigan opened, I think, 0 for 8 uh from three. Um, I think they were 0 for their first eight or 10. Uh it was the first time, I think, all season they went scoreless from three, and they still had a lead at halftime. If you look inside the numbers, you would think, how did Michigan win this game? At least offensively. But uh, you know, they they remained tough. You know, they didn't have the game they had against Arizona where they could just impose their will and run away with it. And their half-the halftime lead was only four points, like I said, in the second half, Michigan. You know, I think their size and their length kind of took over. I know that uh Yukon had a little foul trouble and uh, you know, they got wore down basically. Michigan forced some fouls and you know dominated in the paint. They made their free throws, except the two at the end when the guy missed. I thought that was it. I thought Yukon was gonna and almost did. There was a turnover that if they had gotten out of the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

They let them, they opened the door a couple times, and uh and and UConn couldn't step through it. They missed free throws, they lost the ball, they took shots that they missed.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Michigan got up by 11, and it looked like, okay, can they put this game away? And they could not, and give UConn all the credit in the world because they fought back to within four. And I think it was at that point in the game where there were there was that turnover, and it ended up going Michigan's way after review. I think. If that goes the other way, I think it's a different outcome. And yeah, you know, I'm wearing red today.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

So it was interesting. They weren't as dominant as they'd been, neither team.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

No.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

The under was the play, if you remember. We talked about it at length. If it would have gone to overtime, it wouldn't have been the play, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

I don't think Michigan uh well, it doesn't matter now, but had they clawed back, had they tied it, had they gone into overtime, I mean, that goes that game is it's a 50-50. You know, it's it's it could have gone either way. And if if if that game goes into overtime, then Yukon's got uh you know the momentum going into halftime or going into overtime at that point. So, you know, Michigan's, you know, hung hung tough. They they didn't play their A game, they didn't score 90 points like they did in the first five games of the tournament. They had to play Yukon's pace, but you know, they they scored when they had to. And uh, you know, they got contributions from everybody. It wasn't just one or two guys.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

It was an amazing um you know, Michigan ruled the game, but towards the end, you know, like I said, they made mistakes, they kind of lost their focus. You kind of out rebounded them too.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

You know, which like I said, you look inside the numbers, you know, uh it's it's incredible. Uh, but you know, Michigan converted to you know, 89%, I think, of their free throws. Um, I think they were 20, 21 of 55 shooting. Um, so you know, they they did what they had to to stay in the game and to stay ahead. And uh, you know, look, that sequence that we you know, we texted each other, wow, on that turnover. UConn gets the ball there. It's it's a different game altogether heading into the final two minutes of the game. So, you know, hats off to them. They they they played their game. Michigan had to kind of, you know, I wouldn't say they played to the level of their competition. They both were great teams, both well coached. Um they they just had to play that game to survive, and they were able to do it. That's what champions do.

Why March Madness Has No Cinderellas

SPEAKER_02 7:00

I agree 100%. So it's kind of a letdown after that game, right? You had a the weekend was okay. The first game was kind of a blowout. Um Illinois got their butt kicked, you know. So you end up, you know, it was okay. I mean, the whole beginning of the Sweet 16, the 64.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, not too many surprises. I mean, there was, you know, the first round there was a couple, but there were no real Cinderellas in this tournament after the week after you began Sweet 16 play. So um might be what we're gonna see moving forward. Because of the because Yeah, I mean, it you know, maybe a team that you could say, well, this team could could get players. It's not a well-known team or school or whatever, but they're gonna be good all season if they're going to the tournament. They're not no one's gonna, you know, back into this tournament anymore. Very, very unlikely that you'll see a team, you know, have to win their conference outright in their tour conference tournament, and then get maybe a uh a 10 or an 11 or a 12 seed, and then you know, somehow find its way into the Sweet 16 of the final four.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Unless they have a great player that that just was injured all the season and comes back at the end or something like that, you're not gonna have what you usually have.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah. And I think you know, we've kind of seen a changing of the guard with the coaching. You know, the the the older coaches are still great, don't get me wrong. And the ones that are that have stuck it out through this whole NIL slash portal era and are seeing it into the next generation, uh they're still gonna be very relevant. Um, and they could still win. I uh but I think the the playing field is is much more level now because of of those things. So you have these younger coaches that relate a little better to the younger players. Ironically enough, Michigan older than than most teams. We talked about that last week.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

How you're not going to see five freshmen take this tournament by surprise, that they're playing anybody who's playing at the average age of 19 or 20 against students that are 22 years old on average, it's it's a huge difference. That experience and that tenure as a player and growth and everything else, it it matters.

Big View Numbers And Thanks

SPEAKER_02 9:38

You know, speaking of our podcast last week, I did want to mention it. Um we had the best uh amount of views we've ever had on any of our podcasts. Um we broke over 15,000, and including the audio part of the podcast, we're way over 16,000. So that that was great, and I wanted to thank everybody listening who listened to it and enjoyed it. And I also want to say thank you for the subscriptions. We've had a nice group of subscriptions last week, and everyone listening now, please like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Could you try again?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

My phone's talking to me, thinks that I want her to like and subscribe if it is a her. So I appreciate all that. I apologize. My voice is like nowhere's filled today. I thank everybody for that, and please keep listening, liking and subscribing. And we love your comments, and we love the thumbs up, and please keep it going.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah, thank you. It really means a lot. It's uh it's nice to have an audience and people that want to tune in and share and listen and comment and ask questions, and we're all for it. So I'm excited for it moving forward.

NBA Play In And First Round

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Right. And as you as you all know, um we do this live. Sometimes there's people here, sometimes there's not. No, I'm kidding. Sometimes there's a lot of people listening, sometimes there's a few. It depends on the Monday, but then we edit it and put it out packaged, and that's the one that really gets the views. Sometimes it comes out before the live one is processed by YouTube, or sometimes it comes out after the live one. And I don't mean the live version, but the recorded live version. The unedited version is really what it is. So I thank everybody for that. Uh, I did want to, I don't know how long I'm gonna make it today, but I'm gonna try my best. So I did want to mention a little bit about the NBA playoffs coming along. Uh the playing games. The playing games are outrageous.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

7, 8, 9, 10. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

I don't, you know, I don't really get the playing games, but money. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

It's all about money.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

So you have the Heat playing the Hornets tomorrow at 7:30. You got the Trailblazers playing the Suns, Phoenix Suns, uh, at uh 10 p.m. And then Wednesday you have the Magic and the Sixers, and then the Warriors and the Clippers. Um, early and late games.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Are those one-game play-ins or are they three-game tournaments?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

They're one-game play-ins, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

And that to me just is a money grab, which, you know, I get it, but they they were saying today how it it prevents teams from possibly tanking or whatever, but uh it it's they don't do anything without trying to make a dollar.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Let me look it up. You're playing tournament. Yeah, I do understand. I have other choices, hmm. I don't really say, but I I believe it's a one game.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Uh the NBA play-in tournament features teams seven through ten, each battling for the seventh and eighth playoff. Um I think it's just one game.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Uh if it looks that way. But they already have. Is it four teams playing for one spot? Is it like seven, eight, nine, ten are all playing for the eighth spot? Oh, I see. It's two teams playing in, so it must be one. Yeah. So the Pistons will get the number eight play-in winner, and the Celtics will get the number seven play-in winner. The Knicks are locked in against Atlanta, and Cleveland is locked in against Toronto, and then on the other side, Oklahoma City will play the winner of the eight play-in, and San Antonio will get the seven play-in between those two. And then the Nuggets are locked in against Minnesota, and the Lakers are playing Houston. That's an interesting series. Uh the Lakers were hot. It looked like they were they had righted the ship. Obviously, LeBron at 41 years old, uh not the player he was when he was 19, and dragged the Lakers to the finals on his back, but uh, or the Cleveland, I should say, sorry. Uh, but has found a role in that offense uh as basically three-man and or third option, if you will. And he's taken a backseat as a facilitator, which we know he's great at doing. And then uh they sustained a couple injuries, so now you know it's up in the air. And Houston has Durant, so that'll be an interesting first-round matchup. I'm sure it'll be fun to watch. I don't think either team has what it takes to get past the two teams at the top. Denver's obviously a formidable opponent, even though they're the three-seed. And Minnesota's looking to, although they're a six-seed, they've got they've got some serious talent. So I don't think there'll be many surprises in the West. But Minnesota with Anthony Edwards, I'd like to see him win, though it's probably unlikely. But they have, you know, they have a pretty, pretty decent roster. Um, you know, he's got supporting casts there with Gobert and Julius Randle. Is it a big three? I don't know if I go that far, but it'll be an interesting playoffs for sure. I think if I had to pick a team, the surprise would be that Minnesota Timberwolves team. After that, I really don't think there's much of a surprise.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

I don't know. I agree with you.

Jamie Gertz And Hawks Ownership

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Um I'm just looking, yeah, you know what you like about the Atlanta Hawks is that the owner's the woman from her husband owns a team. Um and she's from uh Less Than Zero and um Twister.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

I forget her name.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Isn't it uh was it Jane uh is it Jamie Gertz?

SPEAKER_03 17:01

It is Jamie Gertz, very good.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

She was in whatchamacallit.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

She was in The Lost Boys, that's what that's that's that her she played Star, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I never saw The Lost Boys.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, she was like a half vampire girlfriend to uh keep her Sutherland or whatever. And they the little kid comes running out after they cured him of his vampirism.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Star, Star I know I know that uh I know that she is see what she played in.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah, her husband's Tony Wrestler. He's the other half of that hedge fan. That's incredible out there in L LA. Um she was in a lot of movies. She was in uh Endless Love, uh On the Right Track, Sixteen Candles, um Quicksilver, do you remember that one with the with uh Kevin Bacon and the um Wow That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

They were married in nineteen eighty-nine How old is she?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

He's he's sixty-five. She can't be that old. She's in her sixties, she can't be.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Oh, I think she can. But I think she's like she's sixty. Oh, she's ten years older than sixty one.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

No kidding. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah, she was um she discovered by Norman Lear at Studies at Drama NYU. She was a child doctor, she played one episode of Different Strokes with Andrew Dice Clay. Can you imagine that? One episode.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Now I have to go find that episode.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

And then The Facts of Life. Wow. And she was in Endless Love, and then she scores uh she co-starred in a sitcom called Square Pegs. I never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Not familiar with that.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

And then Less than Zero. Um she was Robert Downey Jr.'s, who was a drug addict in that show, and in real life, apparently. Uh Lost Boys.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

She was half vampire girlfriend of Kiefer Sutherland. I don't do vampires.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

I'm gonna have to watch Solar Babies, Crossroads, Don't Tell Her It's Me, Jersey Girl. Oof, what a bomb. She uh can you spare uh toilet paper for Elaine in the restroom in Seifel?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

One Square.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Uh she played Sarah in a TV movie, Can't Buy Me Love, Catherine Hepburn, Anthony Quinn, and Justin Bateman. I never saw that either. And then Twister's the last I remember. She would originally been oh, listen to this. She'd originally been offered the role of Rachel in Friends. No kidding. And turned it down. Wow. And then she also was Dr. Nita Pomeran. ER. She had a recurring role in Allie McBeal. She portrayed comedian Gilda Radner in a TV movie Gilda Radner. Who was the best? I know it's before your time.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Gilda Radner.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Oh my god. She was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Rosanna and Rosanna Dannon.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Entourage. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she married a billionaire, and now she's running a basketball team.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

And she produced the uh documentary Magic City and American Fantasy. Chronicling the 40 year history of the legendary Atlanta Strip Club, which is pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Dude, we we're not gonna go down that.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

No, I just think it's it's incredible that a a major star who is uh wife to the owner of a basketball team in that city is. Did a documentary on it.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

It's funny, it's not referenced on her bio on Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

I guess not many people know about it. And they canceled that event, which I mean, shocker. Can't make this stuff up, though. We're gonna have to watch it at the club or something. I think we'll have to have a viewing party.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

I have no interest in it. So that's it for Jamie Gertz, other than being beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Um and then ignoring girlfriend from Twister.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Sorry, my mother, I don't know if she's watching. She's she's complaining about the Yankees.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

She's like, you're gonna ask me if you're gonna talk about the Yankees tonight.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

So I don't see anybody I I don't see her watching. Oh, let me just put it that way. Jamie Gertz is a part of a net worth of three billion to over eight billion combined with her husband.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

That's just incredible. Staggering money. I agree with you, it is staggering money.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

She's the richest app actress. Many reports have identified the wealthy arts, often surpassing the better-known stars like Oprah and Reese Witherspoon.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Oh, we glad we covered that.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

So, back to sports, you know, the NBA finals of the NBA Finals. I don't know what to say. We're gonna need to get into it and let it start a little bit before whatever. I think is it LeBron's I can't do the LeBron thing anymore. Is it LeBron's gas game? I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna tell anybody. Everything with him is a media event. I believe when they asked, and I probably said this before and I'll say it again, you know, one night on the Tonight Show or today's show or yesterday's show or whatever that talk show is at night, they asked him who he thought the greatest starting players, if you wanted to play, who would you play with? Nobody said LeBron. No, why would they want to? And and and even saying that, um, Karim Abdul Jabbar said longevity is not um it is not the the guidepost for the greatest player. If you you just because you play 23 years or whatever he's played, um that doesn't when you break a scoring title for somebody who played 10 years, you can't really compare them. They said, you know what, no one LeBron, yes, he's played a long time. Does he have the w the the winning ethic of the ability to will a game like um like Kobe or Michael? Michael Jordan? No, he doesn't. Does he have is he, you know, you talk about guards. Is he is he Magic Johnson? Magic Johnson was the sickest guard I've ever seen. Pass, throw, knew where everybody in the court was, had a basketball brain on him, like nobody else.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

He moved like nobody else. He was smooth, he was good in transition.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

And then you have forwards, even like um, you know, you you take, I mean, to me, two of the best forwards ever are um Berth and what's the guy from Tim Duncan?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

That's my favorite, I think, of all time.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

I mean, Tim Duncan, you never hear his name. He doesn't get enough credit. He really doesn't. And then you gotta say Kareem. And you may say Walt, or you may, you know, you can't argue with Walt, but Kareem was a dominant player. And you can't argue if you said um Bill from who has the 10 championships? Bill Russell. Bill. Bill Russell. What are you gonna argue with? Bill Russell's got 10 championships. I can't argue with that. And yeah, who does he play every year with those championships? Will DeStill. I mean, they're at it every year. So to me, it's Kareem. It's you know, Bird, it's Magic. I know I'm leaving somebody out. It's Tim Duncan and it's uh Kobe. I mean, I I I think they're all better than um at their positions than we can go down the list of power forwards and be here for hours on who did what at what time and what position when it when it comes to basketball, there's seems to be always one or two players at the top of that positional list, whatever position you're talking about, and then there's everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And they're all great, they all bring something different to the table. But the best of the best, if you didn't see them play, and you're just going by stats or longevity or things like that, you have to have at least seen them play or have an appreciation for the era through, you know, having watched film or you know, soaking it in one way or the other. But this NBA is vastly different than the NBA that the guys we watched growing up play in. And it's it's not as tough. I don't care what anybody says, it's just not. And not to take anything away from LeBron or anybody's ability today, LeBron is an incredible athlete. He might be one of the greatest athletes ever in terms of his physical prowess and ability and everything else. And I'm not knocking him as a great basketball player, but the eyeball test tells me everything I need to know. And he's he's still in the top. I mean, he's a top echelon player, top all-time player. But I think what makes him less palatable for us are some of the tertiary things that wouldn't bother us about other guys that do about him. And, you know, the antics and the show. ESPN has been driving his bus since he was in high school.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

That's part of this because you can see it now with uh Caitlin Clark and the influence that ESPN has promoting specific players, and that's the world we live in, right? They promote everyone and everything. And if you live up to their billing, they continue to promote you. And that sinks into people's minds because you just hear it on repeat over and over and over and over and over again. Like UConn women's team is gonna win the national championship. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And we talked about it very briefly last week, and I said, uh, did anybody look at this girl at UCLA whose name escapes me? I'm sorry. They have a pretty good team. And guess what? Well, they didn't beat UConn because UConn lost to South Carolina, but UCLA won the won the championship. So you can't be fooled by what you see on sports.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

So I'm looking at some of these lists they have for power forward dunks.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

And then you have to listen to the the players that played against them, their contemporaries, and the the the players that saw them play. What did they say about them? Because that matters too, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

There's the greatest power forwards in NBA history. Who did this? How'd some Larry Johnson to me Larry Johnson is number one on one of those guys? Because they have him in a suit. Oh, George McGuinness. Larry Nance.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, and then you Zion. We talk about power forwards versus small forwards, the game, the evolution of the game having changed, right? Because it's the small forwards Rasheed Wallace.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

You know, you're looking at the these people they have here. I mean, Dave DeBush, you know, Hall of Fame. Jerry Lucas. What do you say about Jerry Lucis? Kevin Garnett, Dirk DeWinsky, Tim Duncan to me is the one. Number one, that's what they have. Number three, they have Carl Malone. Who's number two? Oh, number two.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Those are power forwards. Those are all power forwards. I mean, we're just strictly talking about forwards, whether they're small or big. Larry Bird is in the conversation if he's not at the top. Dirk Dawinsky, forget what was great, but again, Dirk beat LeBron in the finals. So does that not count, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Carl Muller.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Julius Irving was a forward. Right? He was one of the greatest of all time.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Kevin Garnett.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

You know, there there's so many guys that you can include in the conversation. You know, Clyde Drexler was a small forward. He was great. James Worthy, small forward. Yeah. Mikhail. Grant Hill.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Barkley. Charles Barclay was no Anthony Davis.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

I I wouldn't put Anthony Davis in the top of anything. I've never seen anybody that big cry so much. I just think he's soft. I think if he had played in the Charles Barclay era or even the era before that, he would have been an afterthought. That's just my opinion. I I don't think he could have cut it in in that era.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Jerry Lucas.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

But that's in that's indicative of this entire era where it's when Michael played, the rules, yes, the rules changed again, but that's the that's basketball, right? Like they change rules to And if you look at defense, what about if you look at defense, what about Dennis Rodman? Rodman. Bill Russell, incredible player.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Keep talking, I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

But as far as um as far as forwards in the game, you know, if you're gonna dissect between small forwards, power forwards, um, I I think at the top, you know, Tim Duncan is is the gold standard there. And they, you know, he was more than just the big fundamental, as Shaq indicated, or nicknamed him. You know, Shaq did say he's the greatest power forward of all time. From my perspective, you know, I think Kobe said that too about Tim Duncan. And it's deserved. I mean, the guy was a horse, you know, a complete legend. Uh, there are other guys that played the position that are also great. He's just at the top of that list. And if you watched him play, not just his play, his ethic, and what he brought to the game, what he meant to his teammates, how he played the game, all of those different things come into play. You know, there's there's uh tons of guys that could be on the list of uh forwards. I think Mike Francesa broke it down. This is going back probably almost 20 years, about who's in that group of guys that there's like four or five, five or six guys that are inseparable. And you really can't say that one is greater than the next. It's just they are five of the best basketball players of all time. They're not at Michael's level, but they're ahead of maybe Kobe. And I'm not knocking Kobe, just that there's a distinct difference between Michael and Kobe, and that's not what this conversation is about. But those five guys that play that forward position that are all kind of lumped in together are a block of players that you separate in that top 10 list, you know, men from boys, so to speak, or just the top 10 from the next 10 guys. After those or or ahead of those five guys is Tim Duncan. I I think he's ahead of them. So I think that's something that you have to have seen them all play. Now, I I didn't see guys in the 60s play. I I didn't see Will Chamberlain play, really. I didn't see Bill Russell play. But those guys are all at the end.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Walt Fajer, Bill Russell was actually before I saw him play, but he was pretty old. I mean, I I saw But listening to the You know, that that Nick team, that Nick team, or we want to say, was it 68-69 or 69-70 and 70-71 with you know, with Jerry Lugas, Dave to all Hall of Fame players, and then they add um Walt Frazier, and then they add Earl the Pearl Monroe.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Incredible. I mean, it's uh incredible. So, I mean, that's really it. Anyway, where are we?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Uh what do you want to talk about next?

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Uh that's enough MBA for me, but I can go on.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

More than enough MBA. We we needed uh we needed your f Keith. We need the rabbi for that.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, they're still on assignment, the rabbi. He'll be back.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

He would be he would be telling us about some player from Harlem that was as good as We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

They might be getting inducted this year. We'll see.

Masters Weekend Recap And Scores

SPEAKER_02 36:31

In those days, they were out there. You know, there were those those players. I mean, that's where the ABA came from, right? The ABA came from. They wanted to introduce a little bit more street ball to everything, and it worked. So you know, what are you gonna do? Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Well, if you pivot to uh baseball, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

So I don't know if you saw you saw any of the Masters this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

So I I've never been a golf guy. But I did see Rory on day one had a six-shot lead, or he was six on whatever it was. He set some tournament record on day one for I think it was that he was six under par. It was the first time ever on day one, I think it was somebody who had those numbers, or maybe it was for the returning champion.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, it was, you know, he uh And he did everything he could to give it away on Sunday, not knocking him.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

It's an incredible feat to the nobody was out there. Well, the guy who finished second, I think Nobody was out there trying to win. Had an incredible day on Sunday. I think he came storming back from like 10 shots. I think he was minus 10 or 11 for the day.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Yeah, but he could have won. He missed a couple Scheffler. He missed a couple, a couple of real. I mean, it was him and Henley, second and third. Third was a three-way tie, but him and Henley or four-way tie. Rose had it in the bag, he let it slip out through his fingers. He hit the ball in the woods. Justin Rose, I mean, um Hatton, however it's pronounced, he was six under on Sunday. So, you know, there were people that made their moves. It's just didn't really, you know, Homa was five under, but he, you know, there I mean McElroy's card, let me see if I can find it.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

He was he shot 71 on day four, sixty-seven on day one. Scotty Scheffler shot 65 on day three and sixty-eight on day four. So he came storming back. But an incredible run for these guys. The top 10 guys finished minus 10. That's incredible. Actually, the top, look who was the top 13 guys finished minus 10. So that's an incredible day. I don't know if that's because the course was easy this year, if it was just the perfect conditions. Those are pretty good scores across the board. I mean, you had how many guys finish under par, right? That's not typical for the Masters, right? You had 30, 30 guys finish under par, at least one under.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I I Yeah, I mean, but McElroy starts off, he pars one, he pars two, he bro Birdies on three, which is a par three. I'm sorry, par four, birdies. Then on a par three has a double bogey five on par four on the fourth hole. Fifth holy pars, sixth holy bogeys, then birdie birdie, seven and eight, nine, ten, eleven, par, twelve birdie, thirteen birdie, and then he bogeys the last home and wins by a shot.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I mean, so round six tournament are.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Round three, he uh bogeyed the first hole, parr, birdie, par, par, par, par, par, par, birdie's ten, double bogeys eleven, six, bogey's twelve. This is on Saturday, Birdie, Birdie, and then bogey seventeen and par's eighteen for a 73. But the S of the week, I mean, he shot sixty-five. He had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine birdies. He had, and he had six of them on the back nine, and he had two bogeys. He shot a sixty-five. In round one, he shot a sixty-seven out of the gate. One, two, three, four, five, six birdies, and one bogey. Where others didn't.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I'm looking at the money and I'm thinking to myself, why didn't I play golf?

unknown 41:16

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

So, I mean, if you finished even in four-point tournament, you took home$121,000 for the weekend. That's not a bad weekend.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Yeah, well, it c but it cost more than those guys cost so much money. Private jets.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I'm sure it's all paid for by their sponsors. These aren't these aren't these guys aren't stiffs.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

What did the winner get?$4.2 million? We're already got four and a half million.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Sky Shaffleck took home$2.43. Absolutely incredible. In fact, if you finish plus twelve, you still finished in the money and made it took home fifty-two thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Well, only because he made the cut on Friday.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

And then he played worse. So it's a lot of. Sergio Garcia finished 52nd plus eight.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Took home fifty-four thousand dollars for the day or the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yes. Sergio, he's won the masters, but he's been blowing up. He's got a head problem. He used to hire this guy that was a professional, you know, sports golf psychologist to keep him in his zone. I think the guy passed away. He had the yips.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

And then some Justin Thomas, that's my guy, plus two.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

He's lost himself. I'm so you know what? I'd like to say I'm done with him.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

I don't even recognize half these names. Dustin Johnson finished even. Harris English, another American, minus one. Michael Brennan, Matt McCarty, Brian Campbell, Sam Stevens, all minus two. All the Americans. Chris Goddard up. Let's see. Jason Day, minus five. Hideki Matsuyama, minus five. Kepka, minus five. It's funny, the Americans seem to finish in bunches.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Well, you know that some of those guys are coming back from live. So they're, you know, there's that kind of thing going on now.

Golf Money Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 43:39

They must have made a ton of money doing that, too.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

You know, when um Arnold Palmer won the U.S. Open, um, they did a documentary on Tom. Who wrote that book? Tom Frost, I think his name is, or something like that. He wrote the book on, it was really good on Bobby Jones. He did one on Ben Hogan, and then he there also was a documentary about the back nine at U.S. Open, and I forget where it was. Basically, they were around a shot a piece, tie. So Ben Hogan, who basically his last major he was in contention with.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

That was in Sawgrass.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

After his accident. Right? Arnold Palmer's leading away. And and Jack Nicholas is 17-year-old amateur. And they're all basically with a couple. You know, the interview with with Nicholas was I was a kid. I didn't realize I was in contention.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

That's incredible. My father loved Jack Nicholas. Loved Nicholas.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

So um here it is. 1960 opened Cherry Hill Country Club in Colorado. Um Arnold Palmer wins but where was it?

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Cherry Hills. Hope I have the right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Erasing Arnold Palmer stage the greatest comeback in U.S. Open history, erasing a seven-stroke deficit during the final round to win the U.S. Open title. It is remembered for the crossroads of three primary contenders. It was the final, it was in the final round, Palmer, Hogan, and Jack Nicholas, three of the greatest players in history, if not the top three, if you don't count Tiger. Having already won of the Masters, Palmer was half the way to a single season Grand Sam. And his win at Cherry Hills, with his win at Cherry Hills, he his quest ended three weeks later at the British Open when he lost to Cal Nigel at St. Andrews. Two weeks later he finished five strokes back at PGA.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

But that but Michael Scholak, who the f is that?

SPEAKER_02 46:14

So here you Arnold Palmer wins first place. You know what the money was? 14,400.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Two was Jack Nicholson. He was an amateur, so he got nothing. He was two strokes. Palmer was four strokes up. Four down, you know, whatever. Jack Nicholson was two strokes. Then there were five players tied for third. They got four thousand dollars each. Don Cherry typed nine. Ben Hogan finished ninth. Was literally his last.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

His last bet.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

You know, when he won the um when he won the British Open, which is unusual for an American in those days more than everything. They gave him they gave him a ticket parade down Broadway.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

We are obnoxious.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

And if you ever get a chance to see it, it's a great book. Um I think his name is Tom Frost.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

No, he wrote a bunch of books.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Uh no, this isn't it.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

Um let me write it now.

Bobby Jones And Ben Hogan Stories

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Uh so he wrote a great book about Bobby Jones called The Grand Slam. Mark Frost. What did I say, Tom? Mark Frost. He wrote a great book about Bobby Jones. And if you like anything about golf, you need to read this book because um he's basically he's the first American to win the British Open, I think. He won the Grand Slam, so he won all four majors. And at that time, the fourth major was the amateur. What year was that? And 1930. Wow. And and I think the PGA was at Marion, which is in Pennsylvania. And it really was he had tried his whole life. He was an amateur. He never turned pro till the end when they were giving him a hard time about something. He was an amateur. And he went to Georgia Tech, he had an engineering degree and a law degree. He his father was an interesting family. His father was the general counsel for a small startup soft drink company called Coca-Cola, because they grew up in Atlanta. And his grandfather was the only licensed person to import silk for clothing from Japan. So he had a factory builder where he sold silk from the Silkworms in Japan. So they lived in Atlanta. In those days, he took the train out to the last stop, and there was a golf course there everybody went to called East Lake. It was on a lake. They still play it. I think it's the place the final round of the of the FedEx Cup is played there. And so as a kid, when no one was around and nobody was playing, him and his friends would go out on a golf course. So East Lake is incredibly difficult. He shot 80 at 14 years old. He had the worst clubs. He had like the like the little rascals. You know, they had the I mean, whatever. So he played with this girl. She became the number one women's golfer in the world. The two friends. And one day they were out. I don't think I've told this story, but it's in the book. Should really watch it. One day they were out and they got caught out in a golf course in a thunderstorm. We all know how dangerous that is. So they're running back to the clubhouse, and lightning hits the top of the chimney, and some of the bricks strike Bobby Jones in the back of the neck. And he doesn't even realize it until somebody says, You're bleeding. Well, he ends up getting this rare degenerative spinal disease that comes from some kind of injury you have as a child. So he ends up getting this where, you know, by the 1950s, I think he can't even walk and it at the master's show. But he's a kid. So he becomes this great golfer, and you know, he's playing with, you know, the great, you know, uh, what's his name? The great uh with the group of guys. Hogan? Um, but this is way before Hogan. This isn't before he won the Grand Slam in 30. This is like in the 20s. He's a kid. He's only 28 when he wins the Grand Slam. So in the early 20s or whatever, he's playing just as a kid. He's an amateur. I mean, he's playing with who's the guy that the one they made the book seeds way later. Vardney. Varney is why he was. He's a famous English golfer. There were three guys that came over and they played the greatest round, and there was a golfer whose name Skips leaves me for a minute. And he played with him. He played with there were a couple professional golfers who were looked down on at that time because golf was a sport for rich people that were played at country clubs. And uh it still is.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

There's no lies there.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

And so, yes, it's all about what it did to him. Famous story about about um F-Shocks Fitzgerald. And don't ask me how that gets related back to, but during this period, we're talking about the great Gatsby era, you know. And uh, Zelda, Gasby's wife, you know, she always wanted him to marry her, and she took a picture of Bobby Jones because she had met him and autographed it, you know, with all my love or something, Bobby, um, and sent it to him. And and Fitzgerald saw it, he got jealous and married her. At least that's how the story goes, right? So that's a great book. Um, he also wrote a book on if you're a if you're a golf guy, that's a must. So here it is. He also wrote the greatest game ever played. You may have seen the movie, Harry Varden, Francis O'Met, O-U-I-N-E-T. It's the birth of modern golf. It really is. Francis and him. Francis is a little older than Bobby, but it's when Francis was a was a caddy, and he took on the the dare to play against Harry Varden and I forget who the other who the other guy is. The guy I was talking about. I'm just no, I'm just doing that. Come on. So uh the 1933 U.S. Open of two men finally was an amazing, amazing thing. I can't think of the professional golfer, but uh Varden was, you know, the great English golfer. So that's um so that and then he also wrote a great book about Hogan and how poor he was. Hogan's a really interesting story. When he was six years old, his father committed suicide in front of him in the living room of their house. He was an incredibly strange dude. He used to walk 10 miles for a job to Caddy because it was the only work he could get at his age. And um that's where he met, and that's where he met Byron Nelson. And and, you know, he was a good player, and he met woman and married her, and they were traveling around to travel in in car, in car caravans, and you know, he was out of money, he had a win. If he he was literally out of money, he thought he was gonna have to quit and go home and get a job, and he ends up winning and the rest is history. But the thing about the thing about Hogan is that he was an average, a better than average golfer, right? He's doing well. They're in Texas in the middle of the night, driving across a one-lane bridge in the fog, and they have a head-on with a bus coming the other way, and Hogan jumps across the seat and covers his wife and saves her life. He wakes up in the hospital, doctor says, Not only are you never gonna play golf again, you're never gonna walk again.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

That's awful.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

And and he says, Don't worry about that, just just bring me a golf club. And he teaches himself to walk and teaches himself to play uh to play golf again, and he wins he had I don't think he'd won a major at that point. And he ends up um with 64 PGA tour wins. Um he was a number one golfer in 19 since 1970, but I I don't know. From Texas.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

He um where this is major.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Hogan won the Masters in 1953 after coming back. He won the triple crowd. Right. That's where he first That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

So he won nine Masters. Nine majors. Absolutely incredible. But his last hurrah was in 1960, going up, you know, going up. He had an incredible game. He used to he would say things during interviews, you know, where he said, Do you know uh he goes, they would say, Do you know this golfer? And he would say, Of course I do. He's my best friend. And then they go interview the guy, and the guy would say, I I've never talked to Hogan in my life. You know, I played golf him, he didn't say two words. He used to float his golf balls in the um in the bathtub to make sure they were perfectly round.

SPEAKER_03 57:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Really, really. And then there's a famous story where one iron, no one even knew there was such a club.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

He's at Marion, which is in Philadelphia, strangely enough.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

And Hogan, you know, is uh must secure a par to force the playoff to win. Um he's 213 yards from the hall, and he pulls a one-iron out of his club no one ever even seen before, and hits it. There's a plaque there today in the Marion where he did it and ends up winning 1959. I mean, there were so many stories about Hogan. You know, like people say, you know, hey Ben, people other golf would say, Hey Ben, how do you hit it so well? He goes, Oh, I try to hit it from the second notch on the club. And they all laugh and he walks away. And then somebody says, Do you think he was serious? Like he was his ability was his control, his practice. He'd play, he'd practice till his hands bled. You know, I mean, he was just he was a different kind of human being. And he's he's a legend.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Yeah, you have to be to play at that level. My God.

Book Picks Final Anecdote Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Right. So anyway, we talked a lot about golf. I would read the Ben Hogan book, I would read the back 60, I would see the documentary um on HBO. You'll have to search it out on the 1960s if you're a golf guy. But even if you're not a golf guy, if you're a history guy, because Mark Frost does a great job with putting Bobby Jones in the context of what's going on, World War I, when you know the black hand of the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand, which was totally by accident. The guy went to shoot, and and they use that as an example of, you know, don't quit trying because sometimes mistakes work out. So they send the assassin, and this they talk about it in the book, they send the assassination, assassin to kill the Archduke Ferdinand. And the bike can, so he goes and he misses him, he loses him, he can't find him, he gives up. He goes to the deli to have a sandwich. Well, guess what? The driver of the Archduke goes down the wrong road. Happens to be the road where the deli is, and he says, Where are you going? This is the wrong road, Duke says. And he goes, Turn around. So they stop and turn back and forth you know to make a turnaround right in front of the deli. Guy goes and gets up and shoots him. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

So they talk, they talk about that kind of stuff in the book. It's a great book. And I think we're about done. I I don't know how much voice I have left.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Great job. Thank you for catching while I dealt with my illness today. And I had my headphones tied around my ankle. I couldn't get them off. I don't know if you heard me cursing over there, but I couldn't get my headphones. I was gonna pull my old computer out of the ground. I was like, well, that's not good. I just kept talking. All right, everybody. Thank you, everybody, for oh, let me set up the music. Or maybe we'll leave with your little banter. I'm sure everybody wants to see. All right, everyone. Thanks so much. Yeah, I know. Have a good one. Have a good night.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Feel better.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:38

See you next week. Hopefully, we'll have Keith. Bye. Thank you. Bye.