NBA Draft Takes and Sports Headlines | Steve and Justin React

The NBA Draft is supposed to be the league’s great equalizer, yet it still manages to feel suspicious. We kick things off by challenging the NBA Draft lottery itself: why certain outcomes make fans swear the fix is in, what the “frozen ping pong ball” legend says about trust, and why a No. 1 pick doesn’t automatically mean a championship plan. From there, we connect the dots to what’s actually changing the draft pipeline right now: NIL money, more recognizable college talent staying longer, and a mock draft landscape that’s finally less dominated by mystery prospects.

With Rabbi Keith joining us, we dig into the NBA Combine and the messy truth of evaluation. We talk about why some proven college players slide despite production, why teams keep paying for upside, and which skills translate when the lights get brighter: playmaking, decision-making, defense, and composure. We also hit a tactical trend we think is coming back around, where huge centers and paint touches become a real “market inefficiency” in a three-point-heavy league.

Then we bring it home to the New York Knicks. With multiple picks, we debate whether this is the perfect year to build through late first-round and second-round selections, or whether the urge to package assets for a star makes any sense in the middle of a real contention window. And because we can’t help ourselves, we finish with a Game 7 fantasy draft across NBA history and argue over the most reliable five guys to win one last game.

If you enjoyed the debate, subscribe, share the episode with a Knicks fan or a draft junkie, and leave us a review. Who’s your sleeper pick and who’s your Game 7 starting five?

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Rabbi Keith

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to Sports Live with Steven Justin. We are live on YouTube and Facebook and the Riverside app, whatever that means. I don't know where that is. But anyway, we are here. We're gonna talk about the NBA draft and what a scam it all is. I'm sorry, did I say that out loud? And we're gonna go on with Justin here. And the rabbi will be here too, here on Sports Live with Steve and Justin. Justin, how the hell are you? Good afternoon, Your Honor. How are you? I'm good. I'm much better than I've been for the past three or four or five or six or seven days. I've had, you know, it's it's it's illness Monday. Every Monday I have a new illness. Less this weekend it was vertigo, but I feel pretty good all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

You look good too, so that that's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

You know what they say, it's better to look good than to feel good. But it's an old old Saturday Night Live thing. And I have my Porto cup with me today. Coming from Portugal. Whoever got me that knows who you are. And yes, I use it to piss you off. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

How was your weekend? Uh I had a long weekend. It was uh chock full of good stuff. Like uh getting called into work unexpectedly after a long night out. The cover for your daughter, I heard. Are we allowed to talk about that? No, we're not. Good weekend. I dragged myself out on Saturday night with an old friend, and uh, we painted the town red, as they say. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Nice. Uh it was a Met weekend, it was an MBA weekend, there's a lot of things going on. We are lucky today, and maybe I'll bring him in now. We are lucky today, as we are always lucky when he's here. The rabbi is with us, and he said, People are calling him rabbi, he told me over the weekend. People are calling me rabbi now. I said, Well, are you Jewish? He's like, Yeah, I'm Jewish. I said, So, what's the big deal? He's like, I kind of like it that I'm the sports rabbi. So here he is. He even put it in. Look, it says Rabbi Keith. Hey, Rabbi Keith with us live.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

I'm so sorry to see you guys. How are you, Rabbi? I just like it feels like it's been like I missed you so much, man. How you doing, Judge? It's good to see you. What's happening, pal?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

You're scaring the shit out of me, dude.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

It's been a little bit. You know, I was out in Los Angeles and uh oh, by the way, I just came back from the L NBA Combine. I've been there for two weeks. Judge, I I know I'm not supposed to talk about this on air, but thank you and the show for putting me up in the Palmer House Hotel for two weeks and you know, getting interviews with all the players and everything like that. They put me in the Richard Daly suite, which was like $300 a night, but you had to kick back $200 to the contractors. But, you know, otherwise it's a good place. And yeah, I'm just happy to see you. How you guys doing? Y'all right?

SPEAKER_03 3:35

We're hanging in. We're hanging in. How do we so far, I think.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

We're looking to, you know, we know that you have the insight and the scoop, and it's definitely the hottest day of the year so far. The inside scoop

Is The Draft Lottery Rigged

SPEAKER_01 3:48

and uh on the NBA draft, and we know we want to talk about that. It's one of our one of our issues. First of all, before we get into the players, I mean, is the is the draft a total scam on who goes first? I mean, I I don't I don't understand. Could they it if they sat up late nights thinking how to look like they're fixing the draft, they couldn't do it any better than they're doing now.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, some years it does look like that. Although this year I would say Washington has the first pick and probably the least interesting team in the NBA, the team that absolutely nobody has watched in years, has been Washington. I mean, they were they were good for a little bit. So this year would be a year I would say, I don't know about the fix, but the old story from when the lottery started was in 1985 when the Knicks got the supposedly uh there was a frozen ping pong ball and David Stern reached in and pulled it out, and the Knicks got Patrick Ewing in the draft. There have been a few years that you've been like, it seemed almost like, wow, how did Cooper Flag end up at Dallas after they you know, it just it sometimes it feels a little weird. So, I mean, maybe it's some years it's a hustle, but this year I don't think it is because like, I mean, I I mean, besides changing the name from the Bullets, what has Washington done in like, you know, ever? I mean, ever. They've had two other first rounds, they've had two other number one draft picks. Sean Wall, who was pretty good, and then you know, anybody know the other one? Remember when Jordan came in, he was gonna be general manager, he was gonna go, and he has like this eye for talent because he was a great player and he was gonna pick out some high school kid. Anybody remember his name? No one does. It wasn't Sam Bowie. No, no, no, no, no. It was who was picked ahead of him. I was what the what now now I'm blanking on the kid's name. But he was some like seven foot stiff, and you know, like that's those are the only number one picks Washington is. It'll come back to me soon. But Washington, you know, Washington's no good. And next year, Washington has like Trey Young, who has one leg working, uh Anthony, Anthony Davis, who's like, you know, he's played like four games in the last five seasons. And so they got uh, you know, so the the you know, they get the number one pick in the draft, which is great, except who cares? You know, so some years I'll go with the fixes in theory. This

NIL And The New Draft Pipeline

SPEAKER_00 6:02

year, I don't know. I don't see I don't see the angle as much. And especially the number two pick is Utah. And again, who cares?

SPEAKER_03 6:11

There's not a lot of talent going around this year. Probably more European talent than American college talent. See, I you know what's weird? That that seems to be a trend.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

It has been up until last year and this year, you're starting to see this weird phenomenon. I think it has something to do with the NIL, where you're seeing a lot of kids who it actually, you know, going to college for a year or two has turned out to be a pretty good deal. So in most mock drafts this year, you can go, in some of them, you go as far as down to 15 before you get uh a European player, which is really strange because usually it's like um, you know, like uh with the number one pick, some dude with like eight Zs in his last name, like you know, Von Gazorgesteen, you know what I mean? Like any like the Hawks picked a guy two years ago with the woman. Nobody in nobody in a in Georgia can pronounce his name. You know, it's like they just call him Z R because it's like but his name in the it's like it's French, and they're like, you know, oh we don't speak this. So um, yeah, no, so it's it's this year and last year, you're really starting to see a lot of the NIL kids come back. And so you're seeing some really, really, really, you know, you've seen a lot of freshmen. I think the first 10 pick are picks are probably gonna be college freshmen, but it's kind of cool because they're guys pretty much everybody has seen once or twice. Um, you know, so it's a little different this year than it's been. This isn't like, you know, we've had years where like it's, you know, um, I, you know, there's been other years where there's a lot of where there's a lot of American players taking, but there just started isn't a lot of talent, like the year Anthony Bennett was number one. Um, you know, so you get these, you get these different trends, but the most recent trend last two years has been college freshmen who have been on, you know, big big programs. I mean, you know, I'm looking at I'm looking at probably three Michigan kids in the first 20 pists. So two Arizona kids probably. You know what I mean? It's is this these are teams, these are kids that people are gonna know.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

So well, you

Combine Buzz And Michigan Standouts

SPEAKER_01 8:05

know, I don't know who goes over number one. I mean, you want to talk about Michigan. You have the Cameron Carr from Baylor, right? He's a guard. Yeah, very good. Very good. Very good guard, a real competitor. You know, it it seems like he's uh, you know, a good pick. Somebody's looking for a guard. You got you got Moraz, is that it? Moraz Johnson. Johnson, yeah. From forward from Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

I mean was the story of the Combine. Everybody at the Combine went crazy because it was like he might come back. I mean, you know, they still technically can go back until uh in the dress uh uh June 23rd. Kids can still go back to college as of May 27th. So Mores was kind of like on the verge of maybe, you know, they they're saying late first round, early second, and he could be a better, he he could be better than that. And but he just blew it up at the combine. He looked fantastic. So did a day Mara. I mean, a Day Mara moved himself from like low first round to have seen him as high as like a 10 or 11. So, you know, it's like the the the Michigan guys did real well, which isn't a great thing for Michigan fans, but you won a national championship. What else do you want? You know? A day Mara, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

That's his name. A day, a day, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Mara seems like he would be a good compliment on a deeper roster. I don't know that he has NBA starting center written all over him, but the league has seven.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

He's he's seven foot three. Yeah. Seven foot three. I mean, he's got a wingspan of seven. Yep. Yeah, yeah. I mean I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

I think he's a guy that's gonna be featured on a team because he's getting a potentially high draft pick, and then you know, after that, you know, he'd probably move on to a team that's gonna either play for a championship or needs depth right from where I see playing out there.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

What's interesting, what's interesting about him is he was a transfer. He played two years at UCLA. And then he and then he transferred to Michigan, the amazing uh, you know, and it is junior year. He was uh I'm just reading this now. I don't think I know it off the top of my head. It was sophomore season. So, you know, I I think I think he's gonna be a good pick. I mean, people need a big man. Yeah, you know, he keeps up the rebounds, does whatever. And then he's got good shooting skills.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, it, you know, I think again, the NBA goes in cycles, right? So for a long time, you know, your number one pick was gonna be Joe Barry Carroll, right? Like, you know, seven foot two, you know, big man in the middle, next Kareem, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And Ewing, players like that. And, you know, the game has really gone out to the exterior now where every team, everybody's shooting three pointers, right? So some teams, I was talking about this a lot uh about Zach Edy, like some teams are gonna start looking at big men and thinking, you know, what people aren't guarding very much anymore is dumping it down into the paint, right? So a kid like Mara, you know, I I he could have. It's hard to fathom the game's gotten away from that. It's possible that some team picks him up and starts thinking to themselves, I mean, you look at a kid like uh Kalkenbrenner from um from Charlotte, who was, you know, really not like a not even considered draftable by a lot of people, second round kid, and like he had a great year this year. So teams are starting to dump the ball in the paint a little more. If that trend continues, guys like Mara are gonna shoot up in the draft a little bit. I mean, you know, you looked at Zach Edy when he came out. Zach Eady, you know, in in 1985 would have been picked right next right after Patrick Ewan. You know, so it's it's it's just it's different depending on the year and the cycle and how the game gets played. But I think somebody's gonna see that the market inefficiency in basketball right now is there's a lot of really big guys who can play in the paint and aren't really getting picked that high. So, you know, I I I think that's a trend that's coming up. But just in in terms of the last 15 years, that's kind of been the case. Like guys 7'3, so what? Put them back up center, you know?

SPEAKER_03 11:48

I think Wembinama probably broke that mold, but there's probably, and this is not a knock on any of these kids, that guy's a freak. There's no Wembinama in this in this draft class. I would think that if you're looking at the NBA playoffs, the two biggest stars, maybe you want the two guys that are playing great, obviously Shea Gellis Alexander from last year, he's MVP. He absolutely had a fantastic postseason. They won a championship. And then this year, not only do you have him, you have another guard, you have Jalen Brunson's been playing lights out for the Knicks.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

And, you know, I mean, obviously, if it wasn't the Knicks, and because I've you know been suffering like everybody else for the last 30 years, plus, you don't want to believe it, but it looks good on paper and it looks good at and it passes the eyeball test. So to me, in this draft, I think a guy like that that could rise would be Braden Smith from Purdue because he's a great facilitator of the basketball. You know, he he attacks the rim and he's got no fear, and he kind of fits that. I'm not saying he's them, but he fits that kind of mold. Right. You know, it seems like his game would transition well into this current NBA. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

If anybody, I just want to say one thing. If anybody has any uh, please, we have the rabbi with us today, like and subscribe. Please, we need us. We need everything, we need more subscribers. We're you know approaching the 3,000 subscriber level, which is more than we had in some time. But I want to say if anybody has any questions um for the rabbi, um, please put them in the chat and let us know, and we'll get them to answer him or at least make up an answer.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Absolutely. If you want to pray, I can actually hear your prayer. Um, I had that feature added recently. Uh yeah, I went to a rabbinical convention. You know, anyway, I did really calm down, Rabbi. Well, what

Proven College Players Get Undervalued

SPEAKER_00 13:40

about what about uh Connecticut? What about Terrace Reed? I, you know, I okay, so this is where I don't get the NBA draft, right? Because I watched the tournament. Best player I saw in the tournament was Terrace Reed. I mean, you could say Lemberg, you could say I mean Terrace Reed was phenomenal, right? Terrace Reed is late first round, early second round. I've seen him go as low as Sacramento in the second round. I mean, you know, like you look at a kid like that, and it's like, yeah, okay, played college for four years. You know, he got better every year. He's the one game all year that Boozer didn't play well was the game that he happened to have Terrace Reed all over, right? So, you know, it's like it's one of those things. Like, I would personally, I'm an NBA GM. I look at Terrace Reed, I think, oh yeah, this guy's a star, but he doesn't project well on draft boards. And the same goes, Justin, for the guy you were talking about, Braden Smith. It's like, I look at Braden Smith, I think nine assists a game for the last three or four seasons, you know? Like that's a that's a skill that translates, right? And, you know, but but again, he's getting put in the second round. Jeremy Fears is getting looked at in the second round. You see a lot of guys, Caraban's another one. I kind of get Caravan, he's he's limited in certain areas. Very good player, though, but you're he's he's looking like a second round guy. The guys that are really tracking are guys like AJ DeBansta, you know, Peterson, who's the, I mean, who's the most interesting, the most interesting player in the draft this year is going to be Darren Peterson out of Kant. I mean, because he is, you know, he has upside, like, you know, I mean, he's probably the highest upside player in the draft. When he was healthy, when he wasn't having cramps and, you know, kicking out of games. They said his excuse at the combine was that he had taken too much creatine during the season to put on muscle. And so he was a little bit bloated. He was getting cramps and stuff like that. So he was, but I mean, like, you know, this is like crap.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Yeah, you can't have any excuses like that in the combine.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

No, like Kevin Boozer was playing with like an orbital bone fracture, you know. He's like, Darren Peterson is is tapping out of college games because he isn't, you know, he's got a tummy ache, which I mean, you know, but when he plays, he's outrageous. So, you know, I think the banster's probably gonna go at one to Washington, but then Utah looks, right? And Utah's got Darren Peterson sitting there. They don't take Darren Peterson, you know, they're they're Sam, the team that took Sam Bowie ahead of uh Michael Jordan, but they do take Darren Peterson, he can flame out. Peterson interests.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, but to take a guy like that, you need to have a really good team spirit. You need a good, you know, locker room because here's a guy that's gonna be like, oh, my, my, you know, you remember how Jordan kept control of Rodman, right? Shut up and play. Yeah, do what I tell you to do, we'll win. And Rodman, listen, you need that person to control a guy like that. Or else, you know, in this pansy ass NBA league now, everybody like, oh, I gotta sit today.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Well, and I'm glad you said it and I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Well, you know, but so okay, so we gotta sit today. I have to go to the bank.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I just got a big check. But, but okay, so you know, you get that is definitely a scenario where like if Peterson can't play over 40 college games, what makes someone think that he can play 82 games in a regular season, right? And so that's the question. But then you get other situations. Another guy out of Kansas about 10 years ago came out, same type of scenario, wasn't playing a lot, got drafted, barely played the first two years, put on 35 pounds. They were, they were bringing there's a there was a story on this. They were he was having Shirley Temple, big jars of Shirley Temple sent up to his room. And he was sitting there drinking and eating, okay? Putting on 35 pounds. They were calling him Coach Embiid on the sidelines, your beat, right? And like you're like, this guy is never gonna make it. Literally, everybody in Philly for two years, Coach Embiid, because he was always on the sidelines. And then all of a sudden, MB just figured out, you know, he grew up. I mean, you know, a lot of the things that you I look at these. You think he grew up. Well, you know, and again, like he's had he's had a great NBA career, but if you're looking at him when he was 20 years old, when he was 19 years old, he hadn't fully grown up. Maybe that's the case with Peterson. You know, a lot of these kids are, you know, the first 10 picks are probably gonna be all guys who are under 20 years old, right? Between 19 and 23 years old, sometimes you see a difference in people. The guys, the guys who interest me though, are guys like Lenborg, who's 23, who's had a consistent growth trajectory, and is probably, I mean, Peterson might end up somewhere like Utah where he's gonna want to limit minutes because they're gonna be, you know, 40 games out of out of the playoffs or whatever, right? But you know, you take you you take you take a guy like um like Lenborg, he might get picked by Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City's got a 12 pick. You put a guy like that in that situation, and that's like overnight, you know, could be an overnight star, right? So it's it's the the for the the getting picked early thing is cool from a standpoint of yeah, I was the number one pick in the draft. There have only been in the lottery era two teams that have won championships that have picked number one draft that have you with a number one draft pick as they're you know on the team, whatever. You know what teams they are? Anyone? Anyone? One's gotta be the Spurs, no? Spurs in, correct. That's one David Robertson and Tim Duncan. The other one is you'll know you. You got the hard one, actually. The easier one was this one. I'll give you a hint. He's still playing. He's 100. Cleveland? Yes, Cleveland. Cleveland picked, uh Cleveland took LeBron. Cleveland also took uh Kyrie. Again. Oh, wow. I forgot about that. Those are the only two teams, though, that have won with number one championship picks, with first round pick, with number one picks, right? So it's not necessarily a road to a championship. A lot of these guys become very good players, but building a whole team around one guy doesn't happen much. When Bianca, like you're saying, like guys like that. I mean, he's George Gervin at seven foot five. So, like, are we gonna see a lot of him? Probably not. You know, you see maybe one of those generation, you see one LeBron a generation. But the Banta is gonna be a great one pick. This draft is interesting. They're comparing it a lot to 2003 because there are so many potential great players in it, but I don't think you're gonna see the hot, like the the the I don't think you're gonna see the one standout Wembiana type player, but I think you're gonna see like 10 or 15 guys who are like, you know, all-stars for a long time. I mean, this will be this will be a draft where the first round and and some of the second round will have guys who are in the league for years. I mean, you know, most years a guy like Boozer, you'd think, yeah, of course, number one pick. I mean, you put him in the lineup, he's getting 18 and 20, 18 and 12 every night, right? He's probably the third pick this year. I mean, he's probably going to Memphis, and Memphis may trade, and Memphis may trade down and get rid of John Morant in the process to do something there. So, I mean, he might, but you know, like Memphis is terrified. Yeah, Memphis is a mess. Memphis is a disaster. But you put Boozer in that in that team, and you know, he's solid. I mean, he does everything well, right? So, you know, it's it's it's it's a it's a weird draft. Like the guys I love in this draft. I mean, there's guys at five, six, seven. You got, you know, Waggler out of Illinois, who's just probably the best shooter in the draft, one of the best shooters. You got Acuff, who's probably one of the best scorers in the draft. You got Mikhail Brown, who has hurt a lot, but incredible upside out of Louisville, you know, uh Caleb Wilson, the guy I love, and I am, I am like, I will drive, I'll pick this guy up at the airport. If the Atlanta Hawks get Kingston Flemings, I'm gonna be the happy, I'm gonna be so happy. Judge, I'm gonna send you a little card with a little smiling picture of me on it, and I'll be like, me and Kingston Fleming at the airport. I'll be like, hey, this is my guy, right? Because I love Kingston Flemings. He's the combine, he was the fastest guy there, fastest shuttle run, best free throw shooter, 38% three-point shooter, point guard, great decision maker. Went to Houston, great defender. I mean, the kid is 6'4, he's everything, you know. That's a guy. This could be the draft we look back at the you know, the the Hawks getting Kingston Flemings at number eight could be the thing that changes the whole thing, right? Wow. So, you know, I mean, it's it's that type of draft. It's not the it's not the the one guy. And a bunch of other people. I mean, the banster's a great player. He'll be the consensus number one, I think. But it's like, you know, there's there's, you know, as I look into my crystal ball, I see the banster going. I actually got a crystal ball. Actually, I I'd be bowling a lot. So like this is instead of doing research, what I do is I look into this and it gives me different things. So, you know, in that rabbi swoop.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

See if the winning lotto numbers are in there.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah, yeah. So what day you need. But I can always give you a few better.

Knicks Picks And Trade Temptations

SPEAKER_01 22:30

So you look at the Knicks. The Knicks are 24th pick, they're um 34th pick, and then 55th pick. Yep. I mean, what are they doing with that?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

So I didn't realize there were that many picks in the pick heavy, and this is a good year to be pick heavy, and where they're pick heavy is solid too. I think one guy who's is is been sort of, I mean, you know, in November, this guy was considered a potential top top five pick. He may slip all the way down into the 20s. The Knicks may end up getting somebody like Koa Pete. Koa Pete was outrageous in Arizona for stretches, got hurt a little bit, but was considered one of the best athletes in you know in college basketball. All of a sudden, he goes to the combine six for 25 from three-point range. And the questions about him being a good outside shooter are like real now. But so he they may get a I heard he was reworking his shot. Who knows how that's gonna go? I mean, you know, like you know, he's he's struggling against against guys who are not closing out like NBA players, you know. So it's it's you know, it's hard to know. Um, the other guy, Morez, might be, you know, Morez might be a Nick. Um the late the guy I like really at that 55 pick, though, I was looking in some of the guys that are around, he got some good picks. Emmanuel Sharp out of Houston might still be on the board at that point. He's like a late second round guy, but he's one of those guys who's just been great every year. Outrageous defender. They can play him at you know several positions. You know, there's guys like that that are around. I mean, the Knicks, the Knicks.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Listen, they need somebody off the bench. They need that big six man. Yeah, I mean, these picks could be great for that.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah. I mean, this is the year for it. And I mean, you know, you you might, I mean, you might get with with what they have, you might get a starter and two really solid contributors off the bench right away. I mean, you know, we're seeing players who, you know, like it was like Cooper Flag coming in last year. People were thinking, ah, it's gonna take them a year or two. Cooper Flag, well, yeah, it's ready to go. And I think you're gonna see more of that. Some of these players are even for 19 years old, are pretty polished. So, you know, the Knicks might be able to really build off of those picks in the draft. They got it, but exactly. I I think this is the the year to have late first round and second round picks stockpiled. So, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Do you think there's a chance the Knicks will package any of that to make a move on another player for next year?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

It's possible. I mean, there's there's guys out there. I mean, there's always, like I say, the the the John Morant question like is the the somebody's gonna want him because you you watch him and you think, yeah, like he really could be a great player, but there's all this stuff that goes on around him and everything like that. And maybe the circus stops and he just becomes a great ball player, or maybe not. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

I if I'm the Knicks, obviously Giannis is at the top of everyone's list, not just the Knicks. And but I don't think the Knicks have enough to get him. Also, the Knicks are in their window right now, and to make a move like that in the middle of a window where you probably still, not just this year, but next year and the year after, have put together a a championship caliber roster in terms of they're not far away. Yeah, right. They may but they may just be one player away. Sure. Or they may be a uh a couple of depth pieces away. They just have as good a chance as anybody else right now in this window. I think they've been given a gift through this playoffs and they've been playing lights out. They've done only I think something only three other teams have done at this point, and all those teams that went on to win championships. Yeah as a as a Knicks fan, I'm reluctant to go there because I'm um I'm I still haven't turned on a full full series yet. People come into the bar to watch the game. I'm like, where have you been the last 30 years? You didn't want to watch the Knicks two weeks ago. So I'm serious. You know, the only team that gets every night is the Yankees, no matter what. People want to watch the Yankees. And it's I'm not I'm not knocking any of these other teams, but when they're not good, no one wants to watch. The garden might be full, but the bar isn't full of Knicks fans for the last 25, 30 years, unless they're either in the playoffs or they've made it to the conference finals. And that's a fact. Yeah. So while I think they're they're in their window, but as far as the draft is concerned, uh, you know, are is there enough talent there? You know, because I think the Knicks need they could stand to get longer. I think they could stand to be a little bit better defensively, although they've been incredibly defensively good in this playoff so far.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah. Well, they needed to get physical than they did. You needed to take Jalen from being the center of uh was that Teddy Roosevelt?

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Yeah, sorry. Best for you, Dom. Teddy Roosevelt. There he is. Was that from when you were at San Juan Hill or what? Yeah, it was my from my days with the Rough Riders.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

So you're not impressed by news.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

This is that's Lincoln right there. Lincoln.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, no, I can tell he's in a chair. They always put him in chairs. I don't know why. Uh so anyway, Judge, I'm sorry. Uh you you were saying something about basketball. I hear it's the Knicks.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Um I think they're not they don't need to be restructured. So that's why Giannis doesn't fit. You're gonna give away crucial parts to your basketball team to get them. And to do that, first of all, the executives at the Knicks aren't smart enough to know how to do that. Right? They're also not smart enough not to get ripped off and ruin a good thing. Right. They're able to take it apart. Giannis gets hurt, out of the gate, they're all screwed. Right now they got a winning team, a team that can go to the finals, a team that with the new coach, they could become a team that could win the finals because they've changed their strategy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Similar to actually Golden State, where you went from Mark Jackson, who was a top flight defensive coach, you bring in what were what was Golden State known for at first was defense, right? Then you bring Kerry in and they become an offensive powerhouse. I think they kind of almost followed that model, bringing Mike Brown in. Mike Brown is a phenomenal offensive coach, and Timothy was a great defensive coach. So they've really drilled both ends of the floor into the team. And, you know, when they've needed to score this year, they've scored in heaps, man. Like it's it's wild. They have these runs that I just I haven't seen a Knicks team do that in a really long time. And it's impressive. You know, the thing I was thinking though, with you know, I mean, it's it hypothetically, it's it's a great question, right? Like, are they one great player away or are they a bunch of pieces away? I like the approach. I mean, Giannis would be great, but you're probably talking about like four or five picks in a play or something like that, right? Yeah, I I don't think I don't see it. I don't I don't see any of it. I I think the guys, I think they can get enough out of the draft this year, guys who can contribute quickly. Like, I don't think these are guys who that we're not looking at a lot of guys who are like, you know, he's like a seven foot eight project, you know, who, you know, has like three left hands or anything like that, but we got to develop a right hand, you know. It's it's these are all guys I think the guys they're looking at that'll be available at least in the first round are guys who can contribute. Right. So I think they're close enough where that could work. But I mean, yeah, yeah, they obviously the big splash bring in Giannis or something like that, that could make a difference as well. Personally, I like the idea of building through the draft. I think that's what the teams that have been successful the last you know five, six years have done. So and I think it's a better mob.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I I agree. So one of the conversations we've been having, I had it with myself when Justin wasn't here, and I've had it with Justin.

Game 7 All-Time Starting Five

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Game seven, and I'm interested in your take. NBA finals, game seven, five players, who do you put on a court? Anyone you want throughout history.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Oh, okay. So first uh all the history of basketball? Correct. First guy, Bill Russell. And I have him coached too. Bill Russell, Bill Russell coached. Bill What Bill Russell won 10 championships. He coached the last year. He checked himself out of the game to draw up an out-of-bounds play in a game seven, and then, you know, went in, ran a play to Sam Jones, scored and everything like that. That's you know, Bill Russell won 10 championships. He's on he's on my team. I don't care what generation he's playing in. Uh Jordan, obviously, right. I agree, right, Jordan. You know, LeBron matchup issues. I mean, you know, say what you want about LeBron. Like, how do you guard him? You know, you can't guard him small, you can't guard him big. In his heyday, I mean, I remember watching him score 33 consecutive points. I've never seen anything like that. So, you know, I mean, you know, again one game. Yeah. One game. Uh uh he's a guy take. He's a guy I'll take. Um, give me uh, give me, give me uh, you know, it's like I wanna, I wanna, I wanna kick Bird and Magic on there, but you know, like, you know, like I I got, yeah, I don't know. I think magic. I think I go with magic because I, you know, perfect pure point guard for that. And so I probably need a center. I hate leaving Bird off, though. Um I need a center. What about Russell? Russell's not your center? No, because I gotta play Russell should be my center, but can but with the guys I'm playing, right? I'm thinking I put Kareem at the center, he's seven foot two, right? You know, uh you Russell, I'm probably playing at the power forward, run Jordan at the small forward, uh LeBron uh Jordan at the point, Jordan at the wing. Uh you put Jordan wherever he wants to play. Just put him on the floor. Who cares? Uh two or three, LeBron put him at two or three, whatever, and then get yourself a good point guard, magic, you're good. You're fine. You'll win. I think you'll beat somebody. Is that that that's pretty good, right? That'll work.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Formidable lineup. I mean, you got Michael on the floor, so.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Who do you have? Yeah, Michael Jordan on the floor. So what is it? My point was this.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Against your lineup, I'm gonna beat you. I'm gonna beat you to death. I'm gonna beat first, I'm gonna put Dennis Robin out there just to torment everybody.

unknown 32:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

That's number one. Then I I was gonna go with Kevin Garnett just because of the trash talk, but if I have Robin, I don't need him. Then I'm Tim Duncan, absolutely good call. There's no one can match up with them. Good call. Obviously, I would have Michael on the floor too, but if you've had Michael and I can't have Michael, I have to go somewhere else. I would definitely take Larry if you have Magic.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

So I think five picks. I really like how this draft is struck. You gotta get like I gotta talk about whoever's lapping.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

I can go with I can fill it out with Shaq and Bill Ambeer just to took just to beat you to death. I mean, I think that would be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

So here's my problem with with you know King James here is that he never puts the game before him. I know he's a winner. It's always about him.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

He did as a rookie, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

I mean, I you know Well, then he learned. He learned how to facilitate, and that was the end of that.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

You know, like there's this, you know, you can there's a lot that can be said in either direction about LeBron. I mean, you put Bird on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Who's beaten Larry Bird on a game seven for it all? Not many people. How is Bird, Byrd and Jordan, those two guys on the four? You if you ask Jordan who's the best, you know, trash beside himself, he'll tell you Larry Bird. Yeah. Larry Bird, Larry Bird was a beast. Yeah. Larry Bird's obviously my favorite player, if you haven't figured that out yet. And I'm a I'm a Knicks fan, but I used to watch Larry Bird, and he would do stuff. You'd watch him at the end of the game. He was, you'd say he was slow. Jordan used to say that, oh yeah, he'd come out and say, okay, right there, that's where I'm gonna take my shot. I'm gonna take my shot right from there. Game's gonna come up. There's a couple seconds left. I'm gonna go over there, I'm gonna hit a jumper. All right. So now you know what I'm gonna do. And he'd still go out and do it no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

I mean, one of the greatest, I mean, the the the game. He could do with his left hand. The steal and he passes it. Yeah, remember the inbound to get it to DJ? And it's like that was one of the greatest end-a-game plays ever in the history of the NBA playoffs. I mean, that that was like still Bird had Bird had a lot of moments like that. He was fantastic. I mean, you know, like I say, leaving him out of the top five greatest of all time, you know, the top five guys that have on the court to win, you know. I mean, I might put him in there. I mean, you know, we've done this whole conversation and we haven't even mentioned Julius Herbert.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

There's somebody else none of us have mentioned either that I think is kind of shameful. Go ahead. No, I'm not gonna say it because if it comes from me, it's not gonna sound because I Kobe Bryant.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah, I mean, that was that was I was I was gonna say, isn't it interesting, right? Because like when Kobe was playing, you know, it was, you know, he was really Jordan, one of two players that I would I would take with if you had Michael on the floor, I would, I would count it with Kobe.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

That's that's really the only player I could think of. Yeah, you know, and you unless you put a premier defender and that's all they do. He won two without Shaq. I mean, that's the other one. I you know, you put Shaq on the but he won with Paul Paul Gasal and Derek Fisher. Hit the same exact three-pointer that Robert Ory hit the first time.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Big job, Bob. Yeah. I mean, you know, like it's kind of funny. Kobe went through this stretch where he was so wildly overrated that it was like it almost seemed like Kobe could, you know, you know, like Kobe was going to be considered the greatest player of all time. And now it's like, you know, he doesn't show up as high. I I think when he passed, I think there was a lot of emotion around him.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

But I think a lot of that is because the league was so desperate to find a replacement for Michael that they just constantly compared him to Michael and that wasn't fair to him.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Yeah, it wasn't. But, you know, again, he won five championships. He went from a guy who wasn't a very good defensive player early in his career, one of the best defensive players in the league. I mean, Kobe was phenomenal, and it's really, it is absolutely reasonable to consider him one of the ten, you know, one of the five guys you would have on the floor at the end of the game. I mean, you know, I mean, think about how many big shots he made in his career. You know, it's it's you know, I'm always thinking like the LeBron thing, though, for me is it's more of a matchup question. It's just like how, like, I can understand how you could guard almost anybody. How do you guard a power forward who in the prime of his career was one of the fastest guys in the NBA, right? You know, it's just matchup-wise, there was, you know, he's such a problem, you know. But, you know, and then then you look at a guy like Kobe, and he was just such a great shooter, distributor, he could do everything. You really can't stop him either. I mean, the guys we're talking about are also, they all sort of transcend defense. I mean, the every person we've listed except Russell are and Rodman are people that you put out there and you think to yourself, well, you gotta let them get 30 and then, you know, and then just hope the other guys go cold, you know. So, I mean, it's a great question, though. I mean, it's hard to say like the the five guys of all time, you know. I'm trying to be inclusive with the other errors, but I'm not gonna, you know, we didn't put Wilt in there either, but you know, I mean, I'm if I'm gonna do that. Yeah, but Russell's the guy.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Oscar Robertson, you know, pistol peed at the height of his career. You know, there's a million guys, you could say.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Jerry West. Yeah, yeah. But the the thing with the thing with Pistol Pete is like, you know, he's more of a statistical and highlight phenomenon. It's not like there's a trap, you know, if we're talking about like, you know, playoff games.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

No, but you could grab one year that he couldn't hit easily, that he could hit everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

So well, I mean, he he he had um when the scoring record was broken, um, and was it uh he he he he he you know that was back when freshmen couldn't play. So he played three years of college basketball, had the all-time scoring record. Uh, and then when uh Antoine Jones broke it, he did it in six years. You know, I mean, he was averaging 40 points a game from the second he got to LSU. I mean, there's never been a guy like that. But he just had, you know, he had injuries and he never really got with a team that was very good. Um, and so it's hard to know how he would do at that level. Where a guy like Bird was in the playoffs every year, Magic was in the playoffs every year, LeBron's been in the playoffs you know, in short pants, you know. So I mean it's it's it's easier to get a take on guys like that, Irving, guys like that, you know. Um but yeah, it's a great question. Who are you I think? Who are the who are the other ones you got, Judge?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

I like Byrd. I like um I'm a Bill Russell guy through and through. I mean, how do you not like Russell? I mean, Russell's the most for a guy that has rings on every finger, he's the most underrated guy. Nobody talks about him. I I'm and nobody talks about how good he was, how he went up against Wilter Still and those and those teams. Those teams they had during that period. I Bill stories are just legendary. Of course, the team Boston had was pretty good too.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Oh, sure, sure. And you know, career-wise, Chamberlain did have pretty good numbers against Russell, but when it counted, I mean the the famous story was I think it was Russell's, I think it was late in Russell's career, late in um, it was the last time Wilt was with LA and Butch Van Bredikoff was coaching him. And Bill Russell got so deep into Wilt Chamberlain's head that Butch brand Ben Ben Bredikoff in game seven pulled Wilt Chamberlain off the floor and kept him out of the game the last five minutes. Like Russell had him like rattled. Like Russell, he was like, didn't know what was happening next. Russell was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Uh the the I mean I mean I look at it competitors. I think Russell is the ridiculous competitor. Yeah. And I don't see that from LeBron. I think Tim Duncan, I I think Larry Bird, you want to talk magic, either one is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

I'll give you about I'm sorry, I get on Russell. I just I could do Russell stories all day just because my favorite one, you're talking about him being a good competitor. I think it was Game 7, 1965 in the NBA Finals. 30 points and 44 rebounds. How's that for a line in a Game 7 championship game? 30 points at 44 rebounds. That's like input.

Russell Bird And The Meaning Of Clutch

SPEAKER_01 40:41

You know, like I mean in period that well, we talked about, and you weren't here, but we talked about when Jerry talked about competitors, Jerry West, and I had watched the documentary on him, it was very good. When he hit that long shot to bring it into overtime from the Knicks at half court, nothing but net before longer than half court, nothing but net. And and then they lose in overtime, and they said, Well, what do you think about that shot, Jerry? And he says, I wish it would have missed.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

West is an interesting cat, man. Um, you know, I felt bad. I don't know if you watch that winning time series. They make him look like a jerk. Little goofy. West was not that. He was just a very eccentric guy who thought Sidney Moncrief might be a better player than Magic Johnson, which really at the time wasn't that bad an argument. But anyway, but yeah, no, like that whole period was bagging on West, and I was like, it's terrible to get it.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah, but he went after he went after uh Magic.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah, no, he did. He did. I mean, he figured it out eventually. But it's like, you know, initially he was like, oh, Sydney Mont, you know, Sydney Moncrief's the best guy in the draft, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, nobody nobody really knew what a six foot nine point guard would look like in the NBA. And so Magic was just so ahead of his time, it was hard to see. But West, you know, West has built, you know, most most of the dynasties in the last uh, you know, last 30 years, Jerry West had his hands on. So, you know, that's that's even after he was a player.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Right.

unknown 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

So there's some pretty good defensive players that won champ plenty of championships that nobody talks about. Even guys that were, you know, a guy like John Habelchak, you know, who's an incredible player, won eight straight championships, right? And was uh, or was it I'm sorry, was it eight-time all defensive team? Yeah, yeah. You know, there's some great players out there.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

I'll give you, I'll give you another one, New York guy. I mean, last title was 1970. And they called game seven against LA the Willis Reed game because Willis Reed came out and, you know, scored, you know, played five minutes. Yeah, and it was it was totally inspiring, I get it. But truthfully, Clyde Frazier had 38 points and 17 boards in that game. That's the Willis Reed game. Clyde Frazier was a great Yeah, they were talking about that this week. I mean, you want to talk about a clutch player? Clyde Frazier and the clutch was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

So, yeah, I mean, like, you know, I I read his book years ago called Clyde. Years ago I was a kid. And he learned how to dribble. He grew up in Alabama, and the basketball was a hoop on the wall, and the whole thing was dirt, and it was so much rock and gravel and crap that the ball bounced all different ways, and that's how he learned to dribble like that. That's really cool. He was I think he was sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yeah, go ahead. He used to on on road trips, he, you know, he I I mean, I don't know if you guys used to listen to the next broadcast on the fan, you probably did. Um uh what he I mean, he his vocabulary was like he would just use words, you'd have to sit there and look it up. I was wondering, you know, how do you end up like that? He used to go on road trips and he would bring the dictionary with him on airplanes and just sit there reading the dictionary. Like the guy was just like, he just was he was a strange dude, but man, he was he was that was an old story they used to say.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

You know, why do you read the dictionary? Because all the other books are in there.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

I like that. I like that. My grandfather used to read the phone book just for fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Well, years ago you you would see people that you knew in the phone. Oh, I know him. Yeah, Smith. I f I know that guy. Yeah. Well, I'm old enough to remember when they had letters in the first three. Oh, are you serious?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

No joke. Like you picked up the phone and and and you had like, you know, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Matter of fact, my next door neighbor when I was a kid had a party line. Him and the neighbors across the street shared the same phone line.

unknown 44:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

You'd pick up the phone and you hear the old lady talking, yeah, I I I went down to the store and I got a new thing of comet to clean the sink.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

See, I'll blow my kids' minds by mentioning like rotary phones. Like that's a whole other level of party lines. It's like, you know, rotary phones are hysterical because they look like they're torture devices now. Like you give a kid a rotary phone, they get their fingers stuck in it, and you laugh at them and stuff. But um, you know, I I don't know. You ever do that? When your kids were little, you make them put their hands in rotary phones and twist it and it really hurts. I have no kids.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Oh, so John Havlichek, uh 62 to 78, 16 years, not too shabby, Boston the entire time. He was first year rookie year, he was number 10 in the MVP voting. And then third or fourth year, he was an all-star, fifth year all-star, six-year all-star, seven-year all-star. Um MVP voting 10, 6, 4, 5, 9, 7, 24th on those years. And then he was an all-star. I mean, so he was an all-star. One, two, back when an all-star meant something. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen times. Wow.

unknown 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

No, I mean an incredible basketball resume.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah. Yeah. Well, can I tell one more Russell story? Like, you can tell Russell's story. I'm like, that was great. But I mean, this Russell guy was really good. You know, Russell was, you know, Russell wasn't even a starter on his high school basketball team. He was a six-fanth coming off the bench. The guy at San Francisco, who was a coach, saw him at a basketball camp over the summer, was like, this guy's a real good defender. Let me bring him in. They won two national championships there. Goes to the pros, he wins 10 national championships. Last story I tell about Russell, I'm done now, okay? I promise. There was a high school coach who was like, Yeah, this Russell guy's okay, but I think, you know, I think this other guy have. I'm gonna start him.

unknown 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

He's a little quicker going up and everything like that. Forget this Russell guy. He's he's okay. Bring him off the bench, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

But Russell really. Here's a quote from Russell about Havelchek. Ready? Mm-hmm. Bill Russell on Havelchek, the best player, best player he ever saw. He wasn't the best forward I ever saw. He wasn't the best guard I ever saw. He wasn't the best scorer. And he wasn't the best rebounder. And he wasn't the best ball handler, but he was the best player I ever saw.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Yeah. That's uh that's it. I mean, that's the whole thing in a nutshell, really.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

You want a guy like that on your team.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

And do all the intangibles, and you can't measure his heart.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Well, I guess you can weigh it.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Well, you forget about that team with Russell. You forget about, you know, in the early years, you they had Bob Coozie, too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, the guys they had Sam Jones, JoJo White. I mean, they had they had back. They were MVP uh in 56-57. That was before his time. But I mean, Coozie was I remember watching basketball as a little kid. It was out in the afternoon on Saturdays and Sundays sometime. And I had no idea. I didn't really play basketball. I didn't know a lot about it. Um, you know, but um it was amazing to watch. Oh, yeah. Um and we had great players because it was a smaller, uh, a smaller league at the time.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Sure. Well, and and and I'm just Bill Russell backups. You had at one point, Bill Russell's backup, yeah, you know, John Thompson turned into a one of the five greatest coaches of all time in college basketball. Yeah, they then they brought another guy to this Don Nelson character who was his backup, also became one of the greatest pro coaches of all time. The guy who basically was such a good coach they had to allow zone defense in the NBA. He ruined illegal defense because of what he was running at Golden State. He like, you know, I mean, like those were the guys who backed Russell up. You know, those Celtics teams, I mean, Red Arbach just must have had like, you know, like some kind of voodoo power or something. He just would see in the guys and just I, you know, the teams he built were incredible, you know?

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yeah. Because he looked at something we didn't look at today. He looked at heart. Yeah. And players at heart. Listen, you know when he when he d he was dying, dying to draft, you know, that that hick from Indiana. Hick from French lick. Yep. Yeah. I mean, here's a guy the b I I'll go back to Bird again. I'm sorry. The best, undisputed, the best trash talker than anybody ever, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

I those stories are incredible. And the the the watching Bird, you know, Bird's fun. One of the great things about YouTube is you go back and watch college games. You watch Bird in college. One that Judge, I don't know if you even remember this game, when he was at Indiana State the year they got to the tournament, because they he was there two years and he didn't get to the tournament the first year because I think they got knocked off by Creighton and it was, you know, whatever. So they played DePaul in the final four. And this was, you know, like when DePaul was DePaul used to be, I mean, people think of DePaul Mallory a joke, but I mean, DePaul was a great team. Joe, you know, Ray Meyer was all-time great coach, Dallas Comajes, you know, uh, Terry Cummings, all these great players, right? And Mark Aguire, right? And you got Byrd and like four other guys, and like two of them were pretty decent, and two of them looked like they were like equipment managers. And Byr drops 35 on them. And it's like one of the most absolutely outrageous displays. I mean, the DePaul team was so much better, but Bird just, you know, one-on-one. I mean, you they had one other really good guard, but there was nobody even in the universe of Bird played, it was like he was playing DePa one-on-one. I mean, had they not run into, I mean, they were undefeated that year. Their one loss was Michigan State in the finals. And if they hadn't run into Michigan State, I don't think anybody could have beat. Um, you know, Magic was special, but like, you know, Bird was Bird is Bird's last year at college was like nothing I ever saw. And then he just goes right into the pros and is doing the same thing. So it's, you know, it's it's he's exceptional. I mean, you know, definitely one of the all-time greats. My wife started watching Larry Bird highlights lately out of nowhere. She just says, have you have you ever seen this guy? Because, you know, he's like doing like the tap pass behind that. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I've heard of him. Bird, right? Larry.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

No, watching Larry Bird is like watching when you go on YouTube and watch Larry Bird highlights, it's like watching Tiger Woods putting highlights.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Like when he's got the little mark, like the touch pass where he flips it behind his head, and you're like, how do you how do you even think of that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 51:33

No, I'm gonna play left-handed the first, you know, the first half. And then and then now I'm gonna play right. And how does he hurt himself? Wait, how does he hurt his back? Putting in his driveway at his house. That's why it hurts his back, he's at his house, he digs up the whole driveway, and he's putting the driveway in, he hurts his back. The guy's a Hall of Fame basketball player. I'm not talking about prior to playing basketball, in the middle of playing basketball. Yeah, and in his day, he made a a lot of money, let's be honest. He made as much as anybody else can make. And the guy's putting in his own driveway. Why? Because he's a hick. You know, I he was he was also from Indiana. So if you saw the the documentary on HBO with him in in Magic, you know, Magic is always smiling, whatever. He goes, I hated that guy. I hated him in college. I hate him now. I can't believe I'm sitting across from him. I hate him. He's like, I can't help myself.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Uh Burt Burb, you know, uh although although uh Matt Matt, you gotta, you gotta, there's a lot of magic stories that are as good. My favorite, the magic one I love is the one in game six against the Sixers, where Kareem is hurt and he can't play and they need to close the Sixers out, and so they play him at center as a rookie, and he has 42 points and 21 boards. Like they play him out of position. They're like, yeah, you know, can you play center? You know, like Westhead just puts his arm around, hey, how about you play center tonight? Okay, sure. 42 points, 21 boards. Okay. Yeah. NBA championship. That was his that was that was his rookie year. I mean, like some of these guys, the stories from back then, you know, like I watch, you know, I love watching the game now. I mean, the the the skill level is great, but the the legend, the lore, the stories, man, ain't nothing like that today that I see. You know, like I I mean, what am I gonna be saying 30 years about Shade Gilgius Alexander? You know?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I mean, and you want to go look at another thing, you could, you know, listeners, if you you want to go see so you want some other highlights, go click on Magic Johnson highlights and just the passing. Just the passing highlights. Don't look at shooting highlights. Look at the passing. The guy was the most ridiculous no-look passer you have ever seen in your life.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Arguably the greatest facilitator of all time. Yeah. And and and surrounded by like James Worthy, you know, he's got worthy, he's got Kareem. Imagine you go down the court, you got worthy on one side, you got Kareem on the other, you got Magic with the ball. Why do you even bother guarding anybody? You know?

unknown 54:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I mean, in transition, they were just absolutely unstoppable.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

So, you know, it's and they were all scared to death of Kareem. Yeah. So they, I mean, literally scared to death of Kareem. He grunted, he didn't talk, you know, and they and they uh And it kicked Bruce Lee's ass. Yeah. Right. His reference is is to the movie Um And to the Dragon, was it? Or was it a different one?

SPEAKER_03 54:43

Oh, it was the sunlight that got them.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah. No, but I mean, like, you look at guys today, like, I mean, you know, it just, it's not that there's not that same lore, and maybe that comes with time. I don't know. I just don't feel like I'm gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

No, because players don't, and this is my problem with LeBron and other players. They are not, it's not about the game, it's about themselves. We've shifted from basketball and the great sport that it is to it's all about me. Oh my god, I got a hangnail, I gotta sit down for a couple days. I need to rest. I played 10 games.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Well, I also think they used to embrace charisma a little more in the league. You know, like that the trash talking, that stuff. I mean, you know, like it was. I don't know. That that didn't happen to be.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

I don't think it was as highlighted back then as it is now.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah, fair, that's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

I think it took the ABA when they got street ball. I would agree with that. You know, you went to see people were hanging out at um playgrounds in Harlem to watch a group of guys play, you know, and that and that when that started to make its way into the ABA, and then when they merged the leagues, you really got that.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why, I mean, 80s NBA is so great because it's it's a great quality product. You have a series of great teams. I mean, you know, besides the you know, the the Lakers and the Celtics being fantastic, you just you know throw one year where the 76ers have one of the greatest teams of all time, right, you know, in the middle of that. And then towards the end, you got Detroit and you got the Bulls. I mean, it's like that era of basketball, that there are so many stories from, and there's so many legendary moments from. It's it's really fun to go back and explore that. I don't, you know, I I never know how things are gonna age, but it doesn't feel like the game's gonna age the same way where, you know, like although then again, a guy like Wembiana, I I probably will be telling Wembiana stories when I'm like a hundred years old. I mean, like me and Justin at the nursing home, like Jesse, you remember when Wembiana had 47 and 37 and the first against OKC? You know, yeah. You know, like it would be like Art Carney and like, you know, uh I don't know. It's uh what was the what's the movie where Art Carney and and and George Burns robber bank? What why am I asking? Man I'm talking about I gotta look it up. No, it it's um man. You know the film I'm talking about, Judge? It's like from the 70s. It was like uh Art Carney and uh George Burns, somebody else, three-year-old guys, Rob a Bank. I love that movie. I I don't remember the name of it, but I love it.

unknown 57:19

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

But going in style? Going in style. That's it, yeah. Going in style, great movie. Absolutely great movie.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Yeah, and uh the Bruce Lee Kareem movie was uh Game of Death.

Martial Arts Detour And Wrap

SPEAKER_03 57:29

Oh that was 1978. Well what do you do for a living? Well, I'm a basketball player, yeah. But what do you do in your spare time? I I studied Jeet Kung Do with Bruce Lee.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Correct. Well, he heard trained. I I don't know if you saw the picture I sent you of me and and uh and uh arts guy today. Yes. So I sent a picture around with with a with a guy named I don't think he's alive anymore, that I took some lessons from was his name was Joe Lewis, L-E-W-I-S. And he was the Kimpo World Championship uh was one of Bruce Lee's first students. Wow. And he was a beast. Yeah, he won. He did, he was there at the time. He was at the uh center of everything when he did the one-inch punch and he did the demonstration, Bruce Lee. That was the championship that uh Joe Lewis had won. So he was, you know, he talked about a little bit. He also was a um Muay Thai specialist. Oh what? But he he did uh Kimpo Karate.

unknown 58:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

I I didn't even know you did that, Judge.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Can you like break a board or like a brick or with your hand?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Or you know, so funny story. And I I got in with these guys, and a guy, you know, I start training with, and it was this little guy, and he he you know had this big buffon hairdo. He was really short, and he went to a tanning salon, and he dressed really fancy, and you know, he was the main instructor, you know, he was a nice guy and supposedly had great credentials. So I started taking lessons with him, and he's the one that introduced me to Joe Lewis and Bill Superfoot Wallace, which is another famous guy for terror Tom Bill Superfoot Wallace.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Superfoot Wallace, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

So the great story is this guy, you know. So we run into him on the street, everybody's bowing, all that bullshit. And they were walking along the street, and these and there's a couple of bikers there. I don't think I ever told you this story, Justin. Big, huge guys, middle of nowhere in New Jersey, and it's some small town. We're walking along the but that's where we trained, in the basement of some building, you know, old school. And we're walking along, and there's these two bikers, and the guy says one guy says, he goes, Look at these two faggots walking up and down the street. And the my uh Sabinim, my teacher, looks at them and goes, guys, we're minding our own business, don't bother us. And the guy goes to touch him and cursed at him. This guy in three seconds broke all their legs. They were laying in the street, these gigantic guys, tattoos, shades, all their legs gone. They broke, blew out their knees, they were just laying in the street, people were like this. Later it turned out that he was that he was a retired Navy SEAL guy. Oh my gosh. Oh, so he got it was like yeah, on top of all that. So it turned out that it's kind of like the story. I forget the movie with um he he his father was a sergeant in the Navy. He was stationed in in Taiwan or or Philippines, and he used to get beat up every day by the kids, and he he learned martial arts from people, and he was and then he became a SEAL.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

For some reason, tough dude. I'm gonna do that scene in my head, but it's gonna be the scene from a Bronxtail, which has Palmateri, where the bikers are in the bar, and he's like, now you just can't leave. Like, that's what the guy's story is just morphed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

He's you and the guy are in that and that and I'm just standing there like some dumb guy, you know. I I was older than it. I want to say I was older than him. I was probably 28. He was younger. He was he was a he was a crazy. I mean, I remember when I went, I don't know if this is an interesting story, I can delete it out. So I went, I'm gonna start training there. So I go there, I meet him, you know. He I I know he thinks like I'm an old guy because I was older at the time, you know, I wasn't 20, I'd already been training other places. He's like, whatever. And he gives me a little thing, and I'm training with two other guys. And I'm like, they were really good. I'm like, he's gonna take those guys and blow me out. So he goes, All right, I'm gonna talk to you guys first, then I'll talk to you, Steve. I was like, all right, so they go in and they leave. I said, so what happened to those guys? And he's like, they're gonna they're gonna take what I know and learn what I know, and then they're gonna use it for things that I don't feel are the right way to use it. You I have confidence in that whatever I teach you, you'll use sparingly and only when necessary. I was like That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

I was like, what what is Did Did you ever see the movie Red Belt that came out about 15 years ago? Um David Mammoth movie about Moe Thai. And it's it's it's it's the it's cool because that that's kind of the theme of the movie, where like the guy doesn't really want to use you know the training for things that aren't, you know. I mean, you know, he thinks he doesn't even want to be involved in competitions. He feels competition is weakening. You know, it's about you know, there's one point he's like, you know, do you you teach your fight you teach your fighters how to fight? And he goes, No, I teach them how to prevail. You know, and it's it's it's really about like how the you know how that type of training isn't about everything else, it's about the discipline of it, it's about the intensity of it, you know, the form. So I got a lot of respect for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

That movie It's funny, the last Thursday of every month, all the big time black belts would come and spar. And so you made sure you had that marked on your calendar that you didn't go to class that night. Okay I, of course, had it marked on my calendar and I said, listen, these guys, you know, I'm gonna go there. I want to learn something. These are the guys. If you're gonna be in it, you gotta be in it. So the first time I was there, I was fighting this girl. She had a you know fifth degree black belt. She came up with an ass kick on the top of my head and knocked me out cold. It was over in like three seconds. Outstanding. Three. She slid up, boom, knocked me out, whatever. Leon Spinks moment. Because I was like, you know, I was like pushing her a little. Like you're only supposed to, you know, those big time people, they only fight up to your ability. And I pushed her a little bit, and she's like, dude, are you kidding? And boom, it was over. I'm looking at the floor. What was that? So anyway, I think I think that's gonna be the end of today.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Yeah, no, it was great. If we learn one thing today, Judge, it's this red our back was great. Get it? Our back. You get it? Uh Justin and I have been doing the same joke. You here? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Everybody stick around.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Every five years now. Now it's over here. Everybody stick around.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

We're gonna we're gonna talk about uh we're gonna talk about next week or whatever we do, all right? All right, thank you, everybody. Thanks, the rabbi. Thanks, Justin, for being here. This is same as always. Please like and subscribe, look into the crystal pole and see the final waves. Sports Live with Steven Justin. How are you?