Knicks Win NBA Championship with Steve, Justin and the Rabbi.

You can hear it in our voices right away: this one hits different. After a lifetime of Knicks memories that usually end in heartbreak, we finally get the ending New York has been chasing since 1973. We unpack the game like fans who care and coaches who can’t turn off the film room, starting with the wild truth that a 16-point lead never felt safe once Jalen Brunson started hunting his spots. 

From there, we get into the guts of playoff basketball: why a physical series takes on its own rhythm, how defenses can make the 24-second clock feel ominous, and why “playing better” means nothing if you can’t finish possessions. We debate the worst officiating moments, the value of patience on offense, and the difference between surviving ugly stretches and actually controlling a game. Then we give Mike Brown his flowers for rotation feel, matchup decisions, and the kind of real-time coaching that doesn’t show up in a spreadsheet. 

We also spend real time on Victor Wembanyama, because you don’t see a player like that often. We talk about what he already does that’s unreal, what looked shaky late, and what the Spurs need if they want talent to turn into wins. If you love the NBA, the New York Knicks, coaching, analytics, or the psychology of clutch performance, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a Knicks fan who’s still buzzing, and leave a review telling us: what was the moment you knew the title was real?

Transcript

Sunday Morning Cold Open

SPEAKER_00 0:12

At one time, one time.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

What does that mean exactly?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

It means we just gotta take it one play, one possession, one game at a time, and it's Nixon Five, baby.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to this Sunday morning edition of Stephen Justin Sports Talk Live, one of those with the rabbi on a special day. Uh, that was a little clip from Justin's other occupation that uh was taken, so we put it out there, and then just because it's true.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

That was a good call by Mario Signori after game one. Mario, a longtime, long-suffering Knicks fan, who I tortured for the last 20 plus years. Every time they wanted to watch the Knicks, him and his brother Mikey. I I turned off the Knicks one night to put on girls' volleyball. And Mikey never let me live at that. And boy, did I take a beating this morning in the text messages.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

I coached it for eight years. It's really fun, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So, just in case some of you may have gone to sleep or may have missed it, or may have forgotten because they got too drunk celebrating the little blurb, little early morning production.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I mean, like, I was getting I was getting choked up. Like, I mean, really, like, I mean, I'm not I'm not screwing around. I was getting choked up during that. Um, they had one uh online with game four with the Rocky music on after they won the game. You know, and and I watched, I must have watched that 15 times. I'm Niagara Falls. I'm like, oh my god, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Well and that I dare I almost lost I mean well basically what it works for me is I I um I I can't use music like that. I would have said you are the champions, I would have played, but I can't use music like that because we have to pay royalties and that music I own. So that was um I I I could have done more pictures, but it was really about them winning and um it really was uh an stupid amazing comeback where you say to yourself, now come on. They can't really do this, right? They're down six points, there's hardly any time, but four points, there's hardly any time left, and then you say to yourself, wait a minute, they did it the last game, they did it the two games before that. Matter of fact, they did it 13 times in a row. I mean, I don't know what to say. They played horrible until the fourth quarter, as always. Brunson had what, 45 points and the rest of the team had 49?

SPEAKER_04 4:13

That's incredible. It was, I mean, otherworldly. If I told you that and I told you that Carl Anthony Towns fouled out of the game with two points, where

Comeback Shock And Officiating Anger

SPEAKER_04 4:25

would you think the Knicks were this morning?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah. But again, you know, that's been this run.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

That's right. But I would say this the worst officiating I've seen in some time when they called that loose ball foul against I forget who it was, Robinson or Downs or somebody. Probably was Downs. I mean, they played it back to two guys. They don't even know what to say, the announcers don't even know what to say anymore. They said uh they they asked a professional that they have with them, and he says, eh, I don't really see anything there.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Stumbling and fumbling their way through trying to justify the calls on the court.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

It it was yeah, no, but they but they didn't even know what to say anymore. They were like, No, I can't even lie anymore. I can't even say that could go either way anymore.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Well the problem is with a series like this, it kind of has its own rhythm, right? So when a game when the game starts to get physical, you know, if a game's fast, it escalates and gets faster as the series goes on. You know, if a team tries to slow it down, it works the same way. If a team if a game is physical and the refs don't intercede early in the series, it gets more physical as the games go. Last night was like, you know, people always say, Man, I miss basketball in the 90s. I was like, I was watching it. That was what it looked like. Dudes just beating on each other, man. Like, like Judge pointed out, we uh like like how many how many games like that have in the last two minutes shots, two shots going off the side of the backboard. Like that was, you know, and again, it was it was physical. I I I think they I think I was okay with them letting it get as physical as they they did. I think they missed some calls, but it wasn't, it was one of the better officiated games of this series, which is like saying is one of the better views on the Titanic. But really, like it was, you know, it was it was one of those deals where like they let it get physical, um, and it was a good game. It was a really well-defended game. Wembiana, that again, you know, uh he's made some enemies in this series, but I gotta say, that dude came out like Patrick Ewing freshman year at Georgetown against North Carolina. Like he he blocked five shots in the game. He was so good at over stretches uh at stretches on defense, it was unreal. But down the stretch, I mean, the possession where Brunson has him one-on-one and a clear out, and you're like, best defensive player in the world against the best clutch player in the world. Here it is, and Brunson scores. You know, and it's like that's what it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Brunson just was an unbelievable moment. You were like, uh oh. This is gonna happen. I I I so can I criticize the coach again? Because the announcers were criticizing the coach at the end of the first half, so the exact opposite of what I criticized him about the other day. At the end of the first half, he has him sitting down for the pan for like the last four or five minutes, whatever it was. And the announcers are like this is the game on the line, you gotta go in and whatever. And and the Knicks come back because first of all, their defense is ridiculous, San Antonio. I mean, they can't get to the hoop. Forget, you can't go, you can't drive when he's out there. You can't, he just swallows it up.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

He's so big and so long, so he covers areas of the floor that other guys can't do.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

I mean So, yeah, how many times in the first half, and I text this to you last night, I think, Rabbi. Did you see the um person with the possession on the next try to like drive or something and lose control of the ball? And and and shoot like some and and what did you see? The ball hitting the side of the backboard or barely hitting the backboard or the back of the backboard, and and the buzzer go off because they used up all the time. How many 24 seconds did you see last night? More than I've ever seen in my life.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

I I think I I think I would give the Knicks a little credit there in that they were not rushing their offensive shots.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

They were waiting for shot selection. Frankly, I think that kept them in the game and kept them within striking distance because even though they missed, they took time off the clock and it kept the Spurs' offense a little bit out of rhythm and allowed the Knicks to come back later in the game.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Well, and and again, that's been the that's been sort of the trademark of this Knicks team. You know, I think Mitch Johnson is going to be a great coach someday. Mike Brown is a great coach, right? Like the thing that well, I mean, you know, but you know, Mitch Johnson's nine years old, you know, he's just starting out. He was like, you know, I was like, but Joe Mazzula won a title with Boston. He was like coaching a few years previously at a community college out in Delaware, you know. So it's like these guys are, you know, Mitch Johnson did some good things in the series, but you could, but he got outcoached, and he got outcoached by the best coach that I think is out there right now. Mike Brown was on in this series like I've never seen. And I I don't think Johnson, I I think I think Johnson paled by comparison. I really think that was the issue. I I do think he addressed and tightened up the rotations better, and the defense was sterling. I mean, I've never seen such great position defense by both teams. I mean, they just were they, you know, they they made that 24-second clock feel ominous, you know.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Mike, Mike Brown's, yeah. Hit his decision to play Alvarado with Brunson in game, yeah, game four changed everything. And then because he opened a bit basically opened with that in in game five, because Alvarado and Brunson were on the floor pretty quickly uh before the before the end of the first quarter.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yep. And in late game, having again Shamut hadn't had a good, you know, Shaman had two great games earlier. In the Eastern Conference Finals, he went 11 for 12 from three. So I mean he was, you know, this was a contribution from top to bottom from everybody on the roster. Brown looks down the bench after Shamut has two bad games, like, you know what? You're gonna be all right tonight. He goes in, plays great. You know, it's like and he's he was there on the court down the stretch, which was crazy to me. Like that, you know, last minute of the game, Landry Shamut is is on the court. In fact, when the Spurs were trying to foul, they literally left them alone. They had five guys guarding four guys, and Shamut sitting over there, like, hey, how you doing? You know, the Knicks couldn't throw the skip pass on it because they were.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

Mike Brown has an incredible feel for his players and where they are in each moment of the game. So you got to give them credit because we're all Knicks fans and we all know what it was like to watch John Starks shoot in that last game that he played in that finals. And, you know, I guess Pat Riley didn't have the courage of his convictions to make the switch. Mike Brown never would have let that happen.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

I mean, uh, I'm not knocking Pat Riley or John Starks, just saying giving Mike Brown credit for working those rotations.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I think Riley's view of it at that time is

A 90s Style Defensive Street Fight

SPEAKER_02 11:10

is this is the horse I rode here with. Yeah, I I get that. I give him credit for that. You know what I mean? And and he has a lot. And listen, if he thought he could give two shits, he would have gotten rid of them. I mean uh I mean he's all about winning. And have you ever seen him talk or whatever? And I I have gone to a couple of his motivational things because he used to uh be a hired gun for Nordstroms when I worked there, and and he would come and give motivational speeches and he would talk about what it takes to win.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

So uh Mike Brown has it, that's for sure. Well, you know, the thing that was fascinating to me about Brown is how anti-instinctive some of his ideas were, right? Like in a coaching situation when the game's getting away from you, the first thought everybody has is to freak out and start chucking threes. Brown doubled down on offensive rhythm and was willing to take 24-second violations, trailing by double digits. Yeah, he believed more in getting the offense in rhythm than he did anything else. Like that was like, you know, you know, 99% of coaches don't do that in that spot.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

There was no panic. Yeah, he felt sometimes you think maybe they have no sense of urgency when a coach is, you know, you wonder does he think we're leading by 15 points? But I give him all the credit in the world for having the courage and the patience to let it play out the way it did.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

And that's something else I would say that we talked about last time, and is that with that group, you never knew who was gonna get hot. They all can win the game. Right? Yeah so sometimes I thought he was throwing them out there to see who the hot hand was. And and when he got it, he'd go with it. So like you said, it was his instinctive way of of dealing with it. And I thought he you know, you what can you say? And when they made the you know what? When they made the coaching change last year, I was the first to criticize, but yes. Do I think you have to be able to use your bench? Ask ask San Antonio about their bench, right? Their bench last night came in and and scored many, many points. And I don't know what the number is uh absolutely, but the next bench didn't. So they didn't have that last night. And it it's funny, it it felt like Brunson was a little cold, everybody else was cold, people were starting to fill out, we'll rotate through the bench, none of those guys got hot, and then what happened as it always seems to happen when that happens, is it came back to Brunson. So he was like, All right, well, I'm the only guy here, so let me teach him a lesson. I mean, he taught like a Michael Jordan lesson at the end of that game. That really was. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what else to compare it to. He was like, I know I can't win this game, but watch me.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Well, exactly. I mean, he would I mean it was, you know, they they weren't getting anything. I mean, you know, again, he just kept making plays, and you know, again, he would he his rhythm just it was sort of one of those things where like, you know, he just he had this look about him, like everybody else looked really panicked, and he looked like he was walking down his driveway to get the newspaper on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Always, always look his father is more fired up than he is.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I know it. He's like, I mean, I I I don't think there are many guys with the makeup of Jalen Brunson because he just looked like, you know, he was he was implacable. And the thing about Brunson is, and I think this is the the thing about him that makes him so incredible is that he he becomes almost the face of inevitability to another team, right? What happened to the Spurs is they were up 16 and nobody in the building felt comfortable. You're up 16 in a game like that, you're usually feeling pretty good. Everybody was waiting for with that defense, you wouldn't be comfortable up 16.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

I I would fact I I still can't figure out how they lost. I mean, they just seem I'm not sure if it's the Knicks find the way to see after game four. I mean, there's two things seems to be going on. Knicks always find a way to win. And San Antonio always seems to find a way to lose. So what I was what I was talking about is uh before was so they they sit him down. By the way, he was still dead on his feet at the end of the game, even though they rested him a lot, yeah. Which was the big criticism. I sure I'm sure he heard it from everybody. And he just didn't the coach just didn't seem to ever have control of the game. And like you said, at sixteen down, they weren't comfortable. There was nobody comfortable. There was a couple of seconds, like on that big shot at the end of the second half, uh second uh in the first half, the big shot they got to get back up, I think it was five points or six points, because they were almost they almost went dead even into into halftime. Who who knows how that happened? But they almost go dead even and I think it was Fox or or one of the guys had a big shot and Fox was Fox should have been sitting down last night, but uh he really didn't but anyway and you see them get a little bit of of momentum, but they have these looks in their faces. I mean, first of all, what do you do? You know what? Uh success is as Justin always says, and I've said it for years, you know, luck is where success meets opportunity. Well, they've had some success, but every once in a while there's the player, right? It's like think of a batter in in Major League Baseball. There's always a pitcher. Even Ted Williams had Ally Reynolds, and Allie Reynolds always had his number. He struck him out how many times did he struck him out in the bottom of the ninth for the third out in one of his no-hitters. You know what I mean? I mean, so there's always somebody, and for them it's the Knicks. For them, it's if it's not Brunson, it's OB, it's whatever. I I think I think they well, there is a lot more to it, but but the there's something that always gets in their head

Coaching Decisions That Swung The Series

SPEAKER_02 17:45

because why? Experience tells you that the Knicks always come back.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

Yep. I think what you're watching here, especially after you listen to these guys in the in the postgame, right? The look the coach from the last series did it. This coach is talking about it. Wemby said we dominated for most of the series, we really played better than them. As if you walked away with the trophy.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

This is the this is the analytics generation. They really think they won this series. They lost in five games, okay? They they a gentleman sweep, as they call it, which I I hate that term, but that's what they call it. What is it called? How a gentleman's sweep. That's old. I don't like it. It's something. I never heard of it. I never heard of it. I don't like it. A sweep is four games, period. But my point is this is the analytics generation. We outplayed them. You just said they had a 16-point lead, and with that defense, they, you know, aren't they expecting to win the game? The coach is probably thinking, well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing. He has absolutely no feel for the game whatsoever. You're watching a 29-point lead slip away or a 16-point lead. You've got to call a timeout at some point and figure out another rotation because this ain't it. And they really sit there in the press conference, like, well, you know, we we had the game in the bag. I mean, we basically won the game without having enough points. What what what are we what are we watching here? It's weird. And that's analytics. That's that's analytics coming out of his mouth. So I give credit to Mike Brown and the Knicks because Mike Brown never managed to coach this game through analytics. It was eyeball test in real time. One guy isn't working, get him off the floor. Like I said before, he put Alvarado in with Brunson for the first time all season in game four. He saw something that nobody else did, and I guarantee you, there is nobody in the front office or in their analytics department that had an answer for that. And they didn't they couldn't, you had two ball handlers on the court at the same time to break that defense. And then he did it again in game five early in the game to try and figure out some sort of uh momentum or you know, get the offense going. But he had like like we discussed before, the wherewithal to let the play clock come down, don't rush any shots, figure it out. And then when he saw what he needed, he knew in the fourth quarter that he could put Brunson to work.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

So what I what I would say about that, just one second. Uh I would say about this to me, that's a team ill-prepared, unprepared, whichever word you want to use. I mean, w the statement is we really played better than them for most of the game, except we didn't do enough to win.

unknown 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Because you can play better. Who cares? Listen, you you can have a pitcher go in baseball and make another analogy. He could be pitching a no-header. Or you could be pitching a no-hitter in bottom of the ninth. He gives up a home run, they lose one-nothing. That happens all the time. Yeah. Or it has happened many times in history. So, you know, what are you gonna do? I mean, it's it's I I think they're ill-prepared. I mean, I think they they needed a better coach. They needed Popovich.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Popovich would have been a real You know, I I I I was thinking about that, and and you wonder, you know, what it would be like. Like I said, you know, if I told you Popovich was on the sideline with a 29-point lead in game four, would you expect to win the game? Of course you would. But one thing I will say about the Knicks team, and then I'm not trying to take anything away from Mike Brown, but for the last three years, we've been talking about these Villanova guys and what it means to them to play together. And it was like a almost it felt like a backbreaker when they traded away DiVincenzo because he was part of that unit, right? They even made the commercial a few months back where he throws in the hat, right? Right. They love each other, and that is a family oriented unit. Okay, and they talk about how they play together and they play as brothers and they love each other, and that's real. And I think that that stems from, and I know, you know, the other guys that came in, like towns, they bought into this. So give them credit. Ananobi, they bought into this culture, and I think that comes from you. You know, Jalen Brunson carrying the J. Wright torch with him from college. And I'm not trying to take anything away from Mike Brown. I'm not. It's just that last night, seeing Brunson hug his father, now everybody's going to have their dad on the sideline after the game. You win a championship in any sport. But seeing that epitomized what this team really is. They're family, right? An emotional game. It's it's bigger than basketball. They're family-oriented culture, which is something that Jay Wright talks about. You know, Villanova's program is known for emphasizing relationships and accountability. And while they're developing their game, these guys learn to come together, right? And I know Mikhail Bridges is part of that as well, right? And it's it's this symbolicness or symbolic culture where they are brothers, right? And a lot of championship teams talk about when they come together and what moment galvanize them. I don't know that you could really pick one specific moment from this team or this year because it's in their DNA. They've been doing it all along. Yeah. So I give them credit because I think Jay Wright has at least one thumbprint on this series.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Let me do a quick in-defense of analytics here, because I agree with you about instinct, but I do think that and that one of the things about this team that's impressive is the roster design. I mean, Brown had to know how to use it, but this is a very well-designed roster, and I'm sure analytics was a huge part of that. And I think that's part of what got him there. I mean, you know, you have to look beyond things like this team is being led by a six foot two left-handed point guard. You know, like the the numbers did support that. You know, I mean, the the a lot of this roster was designed extremely well, but it had to be utilized correctly too. So I I think the problem with analytics becomes the Darrell Morey problem, where, you know, analytics is a hammer, right? You give, you give, you know, you give Maury a hammer, he thinks he's got a toolbox, right? Like it's one component in building. You need a coach with great instinct, okay? That's part of it. You need a guy who knows how to use each tool, right? That's him. And and it was a beautifully designed ropper, perfectly put together. I mean, some of the guys like Mitchell Robinson had had, I mean, he hadn't been great all series. He was fantastic in the fourth quarter. There was one time he was either a box out on Wembiana where he had Wembiana out by the three-point line. He hit him so hard, you know. You know, and this is a guy a second round pick out of Western Kentucky, you know, from Western Kentucky hill hilltopper to Chief Rock, you know. I mean, he was like just going, you know, and like Mitch Mitchell Robinson with the game on the line, Mitchell Robinson on the line shooting free throws was like, I'm like, that is the epitome of this series, right? This roster is so well designed that this guy can be, in this moment, not a good free throw shooter, but makes, I mean, they missed a few down the stretch, but he made he made the one that made it four, and that really put it away for them. And that was, you know, to me, it was it was the what the Knicks became was a long-term building project that coalesced around a guy who really, I think, is an artist as a coach in

Analytics Versus Instinct Under Pressure

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Mike Brown. So, you know, yeah, I agree with the I think the field part is there, and that's important, but it but I think roster design is huge as well. And this was a beautifully designed roster.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

I think analytics are logistical, not tactical, right? So so analytics get to you to shape. You look at a player, you see at it, he's a good player, but now you got him, right? And you gotta think how you're gonna plug these pieces together, and you're not saying, well, in a fourth quarter situation, he hit fourth, you know, he shoots 20 out of 33s. I mean, we all know, and we all played some kind of organized sports, that some days you got it, some days you don't. Yeah, you know what I mean? So if you look at Brumson when he started hitting all those threes, and back to Justin's point, that you know, there was a there was a point where a coach should have said, This guy ain't hitting any threes, I'm not giving away my whole season because because he can't hit a three, you know. So you do it sometimes, I think more in football than anything, that you ride the horse you came in with, but analytics can tell you about the past, it can't tell you about the future.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I think that's where it's thank you for saying that. You know, like it it it can it can predict trends, it can predict what's probable. But what statistic do you measure what Jalen Brunson is by, except for wins and losses, you know? I mean, it's like the it's it's the Bill Russell, and sorry, I'm not back on Bill Russell, but it's the Bill Russell. Bill Russell's my favorite player, so and and rightfully so, because there was a guy who, you know, again, it was intangible in a lot of ways. He was a 15-point a game scorer for his career, but all he did from the time he got in college, he won two championships, won eleven with the Celtics in 13 years. He was he just there was something about Russell, whatever they needed, biggest game of the year, game seven, 30 points, 44 rebounds. He was there. You know, but there's no simple statistic that explains what Jalen Russ what Jalen Brunson does. He carries a sense of inevitab inevitability. He must look like the Grim Reaper when the other team's up 16 and it gets like, oh God, this guy's got the ball again. What's he gonna do now? You know, and that plays into what he does well, which is his pivot guys to death.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

But he has something, and and you brought it up that made me think of it, is that he has something that that great players have, and that's when when they hit the back of the backboard on their last three-pointer, they have no problem with grabbing the ball and going right back to that spot and dropping it in. Because that's as many times as Brunson, you say to yourself, don't give it to him anymore. He's missing shots. You know what? All of a sudden he starts hitting him, and all of a sudden he carries the game. So he missed a lot of shots. I mean, I can't even no one can say the Knicks played well last night, but they played well enough to win against a team that they knew and they used and fought, and they went after, you know, they know listen, Wemby is when he's standing there and you try to shoot over him, forget it. You saw it last night. He picked that ball right out of the air on I forget who it was, Towns.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Towns. Towns. But he throws the thing up and like in mid flight, he jumps up and down. That guy's seven foot two, who just threw the shot up. I've never seen anything like that, man. Like, I'm like, he's like the Russian in Rocky IV. I'm like, where'd you come from? You know, like what in the fence? Do they got a factory where they make these dudes? I mean, like, well, yeah, I this is like, you know, the next generation Terminator, man. He's a great player. But Brunson is, you know, if you if I were to say to anybody, who would you rather have the seven foot five guy who's a great shooter and a great finesse player and a great rebounder and the best defensive player in the world, or the six foot-two left-handed point guard? You know what I mean? Uh, it's it's and the answer is the six foot two left-handed point guard who just out in.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Meanwhile, the other guy can hit threes when he's hot and he's not being challenged. I don't think he's used to being he's not physically ready for that game last night. He's not physically ready to battle in a game like that. And maybe you you'll we all agree on that, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:43

I mean I think his conditioning is probably the most suspect out of all of it.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Absolutely, because everybody says, well, he's big. He can shoot three pointers all day long.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Yeah, but he's not running the floor like somebody like Josh Hart. Yeah. He's just, you know, and the fact that he's out there taking three pointers tells you he doesn't want to be underneath the basket. He's not running the floor. Yeah. You know, we saw him at least twice in the series, but halftime with his hands on his hips sucking win. Yeah. And he didn't finish pretty much any of these games. And I would say we dominated for most of the season. Yeah, except when it counted, bro.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

And you know where I think he's the weakest? Here and here. He's gotten he doesn't seem to have heart, and he doesn't seem to have intelligence. And I didn't see anybody except for Harper, who took a lot of bad, uh he had a couple of bad shots.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah, I got him.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

But I would take him, he's the guy I would take out of the whole team.

unknown 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Well, I I think with I think a lot of the problems that are showing up. I actually I I kind of grew to love Wemby in this playoffs because I I I wasn't sold on him, but you know, I saw him carry them for stretches in ways that were amazing. They probably realistically shouldn't have been in the finals. And the only reason they were there was him. And a lot of times what he's doing is filling in the gap for what isn't there. You know, when he's not, you know, when he's out taking threes and he could be under the basket, it's because they don't have anybody they can trust out there, right? It's because, you know, Castle gets hot for a while, but then can't hit anything. Harper actually, yeah, I thought Harper was the second best player on the floor sometimes. No question. And like, you know, the thing of it was like he was, you know, but I think he I I I think this guy's got a great career ahead of him. You know, these teams have to sort of learn. I mean, remember in the 90s way it was always like you had to get beat up a few times before you overcame it. You know, it was the Pistons beating up the finally getting past the Celtics, and then the Bulls finally getting past the Pistons, and the Knicks almost getting past the Bulls, you know, but there used to be a logic to it. And I think there was uh I think the Knicks really learned at the feet of the Pacers, you know, those those two series against the Pacers, they played their hearts out and they realized they needed more. Spurs haven't been tested like that. I mean, they have been tested hard in this playoffs, but this is, you know, it it it's a 23-year-old kid whose you know, cerebral cortex isn't even fully formed. I I I want to see what he is in two or three years with a better with a better roster around him.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

I presume he's gonna get better. I I think the Spurs will probably have to look and see if their coach is worth keeping at this point.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

But maybe he has to grow as well. I know he's young, but Wemby's got incredible talent. I mean, we how many times did we see, oh my god, did he just do that? Yeah, right? He can do things nobody else can do. Once you package that with a little bit more savvy and a little bit more toughness and heart, he's gonna be an unstoppable force. You know, if he gets that streak in him and lets go of this mindset where, well, you know, we dominated the statistics, so we're better, but you didn't win, you know, he's got to become a killer. He's not a killer yet.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yeah, but you know, I don't see it. I think he could be, and I think he's gonna be, you know, again, remember Jordan in his first playoff series had that 63-point game against the Celtics, which everybody remembers. Yeah, they lost that series real bad, you know. Yeah, it takes it takes time. And I mean, you know, there aren't a lot of players who just simply were grow were what they needed to be where Brunson is. Brunson worked his whole career to get to that moment. Wemby has an enormous amount of talent, and I think

Brunson’s Calm And The Clutch Gene

SPEAKER_01 33:20

he'll continue to develop it and continue to grow. And I think I think we're seeing we're at the beginning of a great ride with that guy, but it's at the beginning with him. You know, with Brunson, this is this is the culmination of a lifetime of being in the moment in basketball gyms over and over again to be the guy who's the right place in the right time and to know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

And that's he said in the interview. He said at the end of the interview, the interview, first time he talked, he's like, Oh, we gotta win, we got more to win. Last night she said to him, she goes, now I know what I was what she goes, this is the moment I was thinking about in the dead of summer when I'm sweating my brains off, shooting hoops. I would motivate myself by by this moment, and now it's here. So it really was great, but believing it into fruition. Yeah, I I have to say though, I mean, without Wemby, they get destroyed. Yeah, I agree. Because Brenson, that's the only weapon against him. He drives the guy out in the last series. He drives on every because they had all this close protection, but he had the he puts that ball between his legs, turns, flips, and he did a couple things last night I never seen him do before, and it was almost ridiculous. He had a move where it was like a double fake move, and he burned the guy bad. I don't know if you remember, it was towards the end of the game. And and but without that, but everybody goes to drive and then they see the big guy standing there and know that they can't shoot the ball 20 feet in the air. I mean, I Brennan I can see practice that to a point where he could do it, but um, I I don't I mean Princeton's a a sick talent. I mean, he is is he ever gonna get that street cred? I mean, I he does with coaches and guys like you know a lot about basketball, but are the fans gonna say, My God, this guy is amazing. I mean, he was clutch. Yeah, I mean, I I uh when I think of some of the things he did, I think of Michael Jordan.

unknown 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

There were a lot of people saying before this game that OG could possibly be the MVP of the series. I heard that everywhere. I'm gonna hear that anywhere. No, not after last night. And it's not OG. I mean, he was so good. You know, you know what really, I think the best play he made in the entire game didn't turn into a basket. But all game long, he's going to the basket, ripping the spurs apart. And the pass he threw when he went to the basket and like five spurs like were like jumping around him to knock it down. And he whips this pass behind three of them to Josh Hart, who's sitting there with nobody within 20 feet of him. Hartgack the shot. He had a great game last night, but like that was I mean, Brunson just had moment after moment where you're just like, whoa, you know. Um, and but yeah, like I mean, I'm hoping this is for Wembiana. I really do believe this is the beginning of something. This guy is like, you know, he's he's I I I've never seen anything. He's George the Iceman Gervin in Manute Bowl's body, right? Like, how is this great? You know, like and and you watch him, he's smooth. You know, I think great players. That's the sickest shit I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Yeah, no, it really is. It's like, right. Am I right, Justin?

SPEAKER_04 36:46

I mean, it was great. I mean, only he could come up with that. That was great. That's why we have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Thanks. I but like what I love about him is he never seems like he's you know, he's always deliberate, you know. Great players, you know. I always I I had a I had a player I coach years back who was like a state champion in track, yeah, a hundred-meter sprinter. And it took me four years to convert her to a great point guard because she was so fast, she could do stop and a hundred miles an hour in a second, right? But she couldn't do the in-between stuff. You watch Wembiana, like scale of one to ten, he's always playing at about a six or a seven in terms of speed. And when the defense changes to seven, he's back to five. He's always got him guessing. The only guy on the court who did it better was Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson has got, you know, it isn't one to ten with Jalen Brunson, it's calibrated by, you know, decimal points. He has every angle played and thought through in every moment. The dude is like otherworldly. So I, you know, I mean, like Wembiana, you know, again, the statistical victory thing, I didn't hear that and I was like, well, great, you know, like I'm in Atlanta, like we had a statistical parade for the statistical win we had against the Patriots that year. I remember I was there and nobody else was there because we didn't win anything because it was 28 to 3 and then it wasn't, right? Like statistics matter until they don't. There's one statistic that always seems to matter is a scoreboard, you know, and the Knicks, the Knicks, even though they trailed by 10 or more in all four games they won, they found a way at the end of the game to get the numbers right. I was waiting for Brunson uh to grab the last line from the Untouchables during that interview. I thought he was going to say it at a certain point, was which was I just was I just was there when the wheel came round. And that's that's the truth about him, man. He just kept working and working and working. And when his time came, he was there.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I mean, first thing, you know, Justin and I talk about it all the time, and that is when we're talking about football, you think of Bell Percells, there are no moral victories in sports, right? There are no moral victories. The other way they want to be a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

The challenge for the Spurs and Wemby is going to be now that the Knicks have decryptonited them in a way, the rest of the Western Conference has to look at this and say, okay, we can beat this team. Yeah. He's not a machine. They have a blueprint now. Whether or not they can execute that is on their coaching staffs, right? And whether or not they can put the pieces together. But this Knicks team, every championship series, even if it was with teams like, you know, LeBron's big three or whatever, or Boston's big three, every single one of those championships, going all the way back to the Michael Jordan days, there's always a play or a player that makes a shot, whether it was Paxson, Steve Kerr, uh Robert Ory, uh, Derek Fisher, right? Rainbow three, the ball just comes back and he hits that three. You know, significant moment in the series where they wouldn't have won without that. As good as Kobe and Michael and everybody else were, that one play, like Adanobi's tipping, let's say. But everybody on this roster for the most part that had significant minutes made at least one play where you could say, man, they wouldn't have won without that. They couldn't have done it if he didn't come off the bench and hit that three. They couldn't have done it if he didn't have that tipping. This is like nothing we've ever seen before. As great as Brunson was, I mean, we've seen great performances and he locked it up, MVP. This whole team, this whole unit deserves credit for this victory. It's not just one guy. And I think Brunson would be the first to tell you that.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

I don't know what if, you know, and again, this isn't the right time and place to be talking about what comes next. I think just enjoying the moment is important. But, you know, in a lot of ways, this was the perfect storm for the Knicks, right? I mean, yeah. Celtics without Tatum, you know, the Pacers without Halliburton, Oklahoma City getting knocked off. I mean, you know, again, it's not like they had an easy opponent, but I think this was the best matchup that they could.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

I I still like I mean, I texted the judge from the hospital that night when they after the the Celtics lost that the Knicks got a huge gift.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

And they capitalized. I mean, you know, they they ran through everybody. I mean, but but they lost two games in in in in in almost 20 20 games, right? Well, that's a big piece of this.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

A big piece of it. How what teams win? What teams win in hockey, what teams win in football, what teams win in baseball? The teams that stay healthy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:07

And even when they got hurt, they stayed healthy. They play whoever's in front of them and give them credit because they show up every night the next. They really do. Awesome.

Wembanyama’s Talent And What’s Missing

SPEAKER_04 41:15

You know.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Because you think about one little piece falls out of that. Robinson, O.G., Hart, Brunson, one of them are hurt. Where are we going? I mean, they they may still have done it, but think of the game Hart had, whatever game that was. Game two with the 15 rebounds. Game two with the root.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Another double double. Last night he was 14 and 10, 14 and 11, I think. He was easy to he made some mistakes. He missed a huge free throw, a good shot, but had a magnificent game.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

I I'm just happy for him that OG had that tip in. Me too. Because that poor guy would have lived with that for the rest of his life, missing that that that bunny. Yep. So I I'm happy for all of them. I especially Brunson and Hart because I see them every now and then at the candlelight, and they are the two most unassuming people I have ever encountered. You would not know when they walk in the building that they're superstars. They're just humble, great guys, and you guys you can root for. And I'm just so incredibly happy for the all of them, but the two of them specifically.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Next, so think about think about free throws when you talk about free throws. Think about the ones that Wemby missed in the in the in the last game. Yeah. If you made those, the tip in wouldn't have mattered. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Yeah. Absolutely. He was human. Those guys walk into the candle right next to him. Do me a favor, buy him a drink on the rabbi.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

So I'm going to add you to the list because I have I have about 14 text messages from 14 different people. The next time they come to the candlelight, it's on me. So it's going to be a long tab.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Those guys will never have to pay again, I can tell you that. That's what Dom texted last night. That guy's never going to have to buy a drink in New York City again.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Ever. Yeah. They don't drink. They come in, like I said, they're very unassuming guys. So really just cool characters. Greatest part of sports.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Somebody makes a little bit, I'm a little bit more success motivated than that. Next time they come in, ask them to come on the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

I'll see if I can convert them and we can do a, you know, like a like maybe a for suit or something like that. We could come in and do a ceremony. Or we could do a we could do a Seder and like I could bring them in for that. And you know, I mean I can't. Calm down, Rabbi.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Looking looking further ahead, 15, maybe 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Yeah where where where and when does Jalen Brunson get into the American Basketball Hall of Fame?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Oh, um I I would have I would have taken him right off the court. I yeah It would have just been like, you know, congratulations. It's like, you know, and I just had a bunch of guys grab him and you know take him that guy's going in, you know, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

I think I think this whole team might have to get in at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah. Yeah, he's he's gonna be he's gonna have had one of the great careers in NBA history. And again, late first round draft pick, you know. I mean, everybody had everybody had all these ideas about what wins. I remember being in Atlanta during the Billy Knight era where every single player was six foot seven, two hundred and ten pounds, and was a small forward. You know, everybody had their formula. But you know, the Knicks, the Knicks went on on a limb and decided Jalen Brunson was that guy, and he was that guy.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Like you said before, right place, right time, right coach. I mean, could you imagine that Brunson would have been able to do this with the Mavericks?

SPEAKER_01 44:34

No, they you know, they got Luca and Brunson in the same draft. It's incredible. Like, I mean, you know, like like Donnie Delphine rap, but like that was a pretty good day for him. Um, do you know Luca?

SPEAKER_02 44:48

The problem with Lucas is he started playing so young, and and and you know, he his wear and tear on his body is at a farther along level than than most players.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, he's not in great shape.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

He's not in great shape.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure how he's gonna age. I figure at some point they'll get him. He had stretches this year where he didn't look himself, but that team was kind of a mess. So, I mean, in fairness, I think that I think Luca's got some days ahead of him that are great too. But I think the uh Brunson and Wembiana may meet again at some later date, and we might get something like this, but I don't care because of this one, we won. And since 1973, I was born in 1975. In my lifetime, the New York Knicks have not won a championship, and I can no longer say that. How that I mean, you know, how great is that?

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Well, I tell uh how long my grandfather asked me, how long has it been? And I was like, uh, well, let me give you an idea. I was on my eighth grade trip to Williamsburg. Wow. Watching the game in the in the hotel, trying to talk to teacher who was the the sh whatever you call the person that goes with you, the chaperone to set to let us come on, come on, don't you like the Knicks? It's almost you know, it's in the fourth quarter. That's how long it was. Yeah. 1973, year I graduated in eighth grade.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

If you turned together to the daily news, the headline would have been trouble with Nixon administration, right? Like that that's how far back we're going, you know? Like pre-girl board. Um, and it just, you know, again, it it really did for a long time. I just never thought it was gonna happen. And to actually witness it, man, that was cool. I'm just I'm just a I'm just as a basketball fan, as a New Yorker, to my core, even though I've been out of there 30 years, it was really a beautiful moment for the city, and I'm so happy. I really am. I like I feel such joy for those players, for that team, for New York, you know, for that. That's a city that made me love basketball. And that's the place where I fell in love with it, Madison Square Garden. And I mean, that's not where the game was at that time, but game four was. And the whole thing is New York.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

So I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, sure. I I mean you gotta almost think that that 73 team, maybe this, maybe the earlier team, the 69, I don't know if it was 6869 or 6970, the team are a lot similar to these this team. Yeah you know what I mean? They don't have that big guy. Now, Fraser's one of the great players of all time. Don't get me wrong, but um, I mean, they're all they were all great. They anybody could have hit the day, anybody, you had the busher, you know, you had all these guys that just made it come together and they played with heart. Yeah, which is what this team does.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

And they had a lot of character too. And they won they won the biggest game of the season with their best.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

And they were a lot of characters.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah, they were. They were fun. Phil Jackson, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like they that was Phil Jackson. Yeah. That was those those teams, those Red Holtzman teams, were absolutely wonderful. And, you

Fifty Years Of Knicks Pain Ends

SPEAKER_01 47:55

know, but again, you get to a point where you've seen it so much, the Knicks just blowing it and blowing it and blowing it, and you just never think you're gonna be sitting here on a Sunday morning thinking to yourself, Knicks won't.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

I never thought I mean this team, I never felt that they they were blowing games. I think they just came up short, you know. Yeah, but yeah, and years prior to this group of guys, you just, you know, how many times did you see them lose 15 and 20 point leads in the fourth quarter? You know, it just happened over and over again, and it just seemed like there was no end to that misery. And yeah, you know, I I made the comments years ago that the Knicks would never win with James Dolan, but I you know, he he was able to take a step back and let Wes do his thing. That's why they won.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

You know? Yeah. I mean, it it's that's what happened to the Yankees. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Steiner stepped to the side and let Cashman do his thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Bob Watson. But yeah, Rob Watson, I'm sorry. Yeah, but you're right. Like, I mean, the story of the Yankees in the 80s was missed opportunity. The story in the 90s was that they took every opportunity. You got to grow to that, you know. And I think everybody involved with the Knicks grew to this moment and made it possible. And I'm just grateful, you know. So grateful I wrote a poem, which is let's end on that on that poem. Are you okay? I I got a little emotional. Most people, you know, like they see a team, the team they've been watching all their lives win a championship, they go out and they drink a bunch of champagne or whatever. But me, I sat in my car in the YMCA at 6:30 in the morning and I wrote and I wrote a poem. I call it Rushmore in Five Steps. I could probably tell you about Bernard the King, but the thing ain't the thing, lest you get a ring. And Mello is quite a fellow, but come round two, his legs turned to jello. Now I don't plan on disgracing Anthony Mason or continue to bark how Stark should be fed to sharks. And while I admire Studemeyer and refuse to go low when it comes to Thibodeau, X-Men, Smith, Wilkins even read nightmares of bulls dancing on their head for years with the for years with the life of Riley and Jeff, I'm thankful. I'm also glad he let go of Zoe's ankle. But it occurred to me, as it had to some, there was no hope. This day would never come. This team couldn't get traction, even under Phil Jackson. Cost a lot of dough to finish 500 and below while Phil was trying to get the kids to read Ivanhoe. Every year they would get beat. They couldn't even get Charles Oakley a seed. And for Patrick Ewing, that generational soul, forever doomed by a missed finger roll. But I'm not here to talk about the past, although the 70s Knicks were all class. It was never too late for Reed to plant the seed that filled the city's aching need for a team that captured

Rushmore Poem And Final Cheers

SPEAKER_01 50:45

the dream. Go look at a tape of Frasier. Quite certain he'll still amaze you. Even Steinbeck's Pearl had nothing on Earl. But when we've been in the desert for many years, we found nothing but heartache, disaster, and tears. Fifty years with Ahab chasing that whale, Perfect Storm comes along, they turn into the Andrea Gale. So they brought in Rick Brunson's kid. Folks didn't know why. They didn't understand that he is that guy. Evil Knievel, he had some he got some stunts in, but he never pulled nothing off like Jalen Brunson. And what's in the name? How about Josh Hart? When the going got tough, the tough got smart. And sure he had his ups and downs, but I am so grateful for the fingertip of Carl Anthony Towns. And there was that put back by that we can never unsee by an original great they'll call OG. When things were down, folks panicked and looked around, but we're guided by the brilliance of the great Mike Brown. And now that it's all been said and done, the trophy at hand, the battle won, I get to say something I thought I'd never say as long as I was alive. Much love, New York, Knicks in five.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

That was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Nice job. Nice job. I think we'll end it on that note. I think it was perfect. I I thank the Knicks for for all the ups and not that many downs in the playoffs at all. At the end of the day, they won, and uh we thank you all.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah. Something else.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

Thank you, everybody. Sunday morning. Go do your thing. I don't know if I have a thing today. I don't either. But I'm gonna I'm gonna go watch F1 race through starting.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

I have Revel in the Knicks title and rewatching that game 37 times. All right. See you guys next week.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

You're man. Love y'all. See you later.