Perception, Data & Visibility in Show Stock-Allison May

In this episode of Cheat Codes: Show Stock Edition, we sit down with Allison May of Pinnacle Livestock Solutions to unpack one of the most misunderstood forces in the show stock world—perception.

From the way animals are presented in sale photos to how families show up at jackpots, perception quietly influences outcomes at every level. But what does that actually mean for families who are just getting started?

We break down:

• How perception develops in show stock (and why it matters)
• Where it shows up—from fitting and showmanship to online sales
• Whether new families should even worry about “marketing” in their first few years
• The role social media really plays (and what you can safely ignore)
• And how emerging sale data is starting to bring more clarity to an otherwise “gut-feel” market

Allison also shares insight from tracking weekly online lamb sale averages—offering a rare, data-driven look into pricing trends, buyer behavior, and what drives value in today’s market.

If you’ve ever wondered:

• “Am I behind?”
• “Do I need to be on social media?”
• “How do I know what a lamb is actually worth?”

This episode will help you think about the show stock world in a much clearer—and healthier—way.

As always, this isn’t about shortcuts.
 It’s about understanding the game so you can play it better.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to Cheat Codes, the podcast where we're learning the game of show stock together and talking with the people who already know how to win. I'm your host, Tom Gorley, and today we're diving into a topic that I think quietly affects almost every part of this industry, even if we don't always talk about it directly. That topic is perception. If you spend any time around show stock, you start to notice the perception shows up everywhere. It shows up in how animals are presented for sale, how programs build reputation, how animals are fitted and shown in the ring, and even how families use social media. But most families, especially those in their first few years, are just trying to learn how to take care of their animals and show them well and give their kids a good experience. The marketing side, the reputation side, and the economics of the industry can feel a little mysterious. That's why I'm excited for today's conversation. Joining me is Allison May from Pinnacle Livestock Solutions. Allison works closely with breeders, sales, and families across the showstock world and has a really unique perspective on how perception, visibility, and market dynamics actually work in this space. One thing I've also appreciated recently is that Allison has started sharing weekly sale averages and market data from online LAM sales. As someone who tends to think pretty analytically, I think there's a lot of value in families having better context for how the markets behave. So today we're going to dig into a few big ideas. How perception develops in Showstock, where it shows up across the industry, whether new families even need to worry about it yet, and how better market awareness can help buyers and breeders make more informed decisions. Alison, thanks for joining me.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Thank you. I'm so excited. You made me sound ultra fancy too. So hopefully I can live up to the live up to the intro.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I think you will. I think you will.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yes. Hopefully, hopefully people are listening and not watching because I just came in from the wind tunnel outside checking baby calves and I probably look exactly like such.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

So well, we had the wind yesterday, and to be honest with you, it's still blowing today. Uh and it was a doozy. I think we had like an inch of snow and it's all blown away. I think they got it down south. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Let's let's dig in a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got got involved in the showstock industry.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Cool. I will try to keep this part short and sweet because it's probably not nearly as important as the rest of the conversation we're gonna have. Uh I live in south central Indiana now. I am a transplant to the Midwest. Um actually growing up, I'm from New Jersey originally, which is called the Garden State for a reason. There are farms there, there still are farms there. There used to be a lot more, unfortunately. I grew up on just a small cow calf operation. We always raised herfords. Um, it was my grandpa's farm originally, and he really was a dairy guy, tried and true in his blood. Even when we switched into beef cattle, he always really loved the dairy cattle. So I would say that I had a pretty slow or non-traditional stock show start for a lot of the, you know, more competitive families that we're all used to seeing today. We raised all kinds of different animals. I showed multiple species, I also rode horses, but really getting more serious into the stock show world was something I didn't do until after my junior career. Uh growing up, showing was absolutely how we marketed our livestock, and I still believe in that from a breeder standpoint, especially like on the cattle side. You know, we'll probably dive in a lot to like the junior market side, which is different than the breeding side, but we were marketing what we did, what our animals looked like, what our program looked like. Very much believe in that avenue. And so just getting started, I mean, we didn't really have the money or the ability to travel and do a lot of the national shows. So that really is a later in life thing for me. But growing up, I mean, humble beginnings, I guess, from that side of it, I would go help people break their calves and travel to shows in exchange for getting some ring exposure. That's kind of how I started down that path. And once I got in it, I just got hooked. I mean, I think most of us probably have a similar like that one that started it, or that one thing that you really enjoy about it that just keeps making you think this is all a really great idea to keep doing.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, so I, you know, grew up in New Jersey, started out down that path, and then I went to Penn State, and that really was step one for me getting out and going to another level. I took every opportunity I could. Somebody needed help fitting, somebody needed help just picking pens and washing or dragging stuff back and forth to tie outs or whatever it was. I mean, I ate it up. I didn't even care if I got paid. I just wanted to go and I wanted to be around it, primarily to meet people, because it doesn't take long, I think, to recognize that people in this space and in ag are so unique and so special. And that's still where all of my deepest, you know, relationships and best friends are for the most part. Um, yeah, so I just kind of started stepping in a little deeper every time an opportunity presented itself. Um, didn't do a lot of the junior market stuff growing up. Let's see, went from Penn State. There's just like a variety that I won't get into of like a roller coaster of the rest of my life that did the corporate thing for a while, worked in feed and nutrition and worked in sales, took a little bit of a break, had my daughter, she's 13 now, and very much, probably more as much or more addicted than I am to the showing scene. And so took a break, actually raised uh club lambs for a few years, and that will come in important later because that was like not that long ago, but it still seems like a lifetime when you get back into it. So, you know, did that, um went back to work. I worked for Transova doing customer service out of their Maryland location, led a team there, and then somewhere around COVID-ish, which I still can't believe really happened, moved to Indiana where I had been dating my boyfriend at the time, long distance, and just kind of felt like the right time to make the move. So we've been here for five years, five or six years. Did some work in the small animal, small room in the repro space, and then about two years ago decided to start pinnacle and take this journey. So, and all throughout that, I would say the stock show world stayed right with me. Even if there maybe was years where I wasn't attending as many shows, I was always trying to stay in touch and stay informed and stay connected to those people. So, and I I do think that's probably a misconception too, like that you can just go. You don't actually have to have a dog in the hunt, you know. Like I've learned I've learned so much just booking a plane ticket and going, you know. The first year I went to Kansas City during the Royal for the National Hereford meeting, I knew maybe like two or three people going. It was very out of my comfort zone, and I had tickets saved up for an airplane and a hotel, and I just went. And I made lifelong friends and great connections and have just kind of continued from there. Same thing with Denver, Oklahoma City. Just go and experience it anytime you can. So, yeah, so I would say pretty humble and different start on the East Coast compared to a lot of people that you probably see, especially in social media, but just kind of stayed plugged in wherever and however I could. And that fast forward now I'm a grown-up and can make my own life choices and make my own money. Here we are spending it on livestock and going to shows. So um my daughter loves it and we compete. We still um, like I said earlier, use the cattle ring really to market our program. Uh, here we do still raise Herefords, my boyfriend and I, Ramsay Herefords, and we've been very fortunate. We've seen some big success. We won the Louisville female show two years ago with a heifer named Hot Pants. Um, really good story behind that someday. So, yeah, we've I kind of started slow, started very beginner-ish in a small pool, and just now I'm in a bigger pool, but recently have had to dive back in for my daughter to start showing she wants to be competitive. Well, I want to be competitive. A lot different in like the five-year span or the seven-year span between getting out and getting back in. A lot's changed. So there's been a there has been a learning curve for sure, just trying to learn all the ins and outs to be competitive now in a club ring, club lamb ring, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Sure. So you're uh how many years back into it since your daughter's been into it?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Um, I think this is her fifth, fifth year. I think the first year was COVID, so like that was a weird we're just gonna try it because she was spending more time in the barn, and naturally, you know, she grew up in the barn but never showed a big interest, and that was always one of my big things, you know, after watching kids growing up kind of get forced into it because their parents maybe couldn't afford it, and then they thought their kids should do it. Um, have seen a lot of that. So, you know, I didn't want to do that. So she kind of started COVID year, she just showed one you was very let's see if this works, and that you, her name is Jan. She still is on the wall, like she was the one that got her hooked, and it's been downhill ever since. Downhill on the wallet for sure. But so yeah, I would say four years in, four going on five, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Okay. So uh tell me a little bit about Pinnacle Livestock Solutions. What do you do there?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

So this is so funny because I just got to see someone at a sale the other day, and I was talking about getting to do this, and like that was your first question on the list, and I thought, what is Pinnacle? I don't know. When I first started Pinnacle Livestock Solutions, I really wanted to keep it very broad because, in my opinion, through all of the various life things that I have done and skills I've acquired and connections I've made, I really believe I can help people with more than just social media. So, like, we'll start with social media because that's the bulk of it. So, my services I provide are really centered around advertising, marketing, promoting your livestock, your program, your event, your whatever it is, predominantly on social media. I think one of the big reasons for that is that it's so easy and accessible. I truly want to work with people that you know want to take full advantage of it, realize it's an easy tool to use. And let's be honest, everybody is on it. Everybody's on their phone. It just is such a logical thing for people to do. And throughout my life, I have managed several business pages, whether it's been for you know our operation or uh nonprofit I've been involved with, or whatever it is. I've always just I guess that's how I'm wired or whatever. I pay attention, I know what's you should and should not post, that sort of thing. And at the end of the day, it's digital networking, in my opinion. And I'm very good at networking. So this just is another layer and easy way to do that for producers. So, yeah, so the paid, the paid side of it, my services I provide predominantly revolve around helping breeders promote their programs on social media. That can be me walking alongside of them and just guiding them and maybe giving them some graphics or some resources to use on their pages, or there are some other accounts, which I don't I say this and then I'm like bracing for impact for people to ask me to do this for them, but I really am not taking any more right now. Um, there are full service social media clients, which I kind of do everything. So I am an admin on the account, a we talk calendar strategy, what we want to do, and then I go forth and do it so they don't have to really touch it or worry about it. Um because I do think that's an important thing to remember, too. Like a most people in this business, I do not know what the number is, but I would love to find out, also have off-farm income. So that has developed into probably a big percentage of my clients. They're either full-time on the farm or ranch and truly don't have the time to sit down, you know, curate things for social media, or they're also working another job and they have to take their kids to sports and do this and do that. So that I think is a big value that I provide is just don't worry about it, man. Like you send me pictures, send me what we're doing or what you have coming up, and I'll make sure that people know about it. So, so that's predominantly what I do. I am a hundred percent self-taught, okay? I do not call myself a graphic designer, I do make graphics, I do use Canva, I am ready for the haters to come at me and say that I need to be using the Adobe Suite. But for me and what I do and what I put on social media, I think that what I do is good, it works, my clients are happy, it stops the scroll, it does all the things. So to invest that additional time and money just doesn't make sense right now. It might someday. So, yeah, so it can kind of range from hey, let's figure out what you have coming up and go back and forth on ideas, and I'll help you execute, but you do the management, or okay, you don't want to do any of it, fine, like I will I will do it for you. Um, so that's pretty much the long and short of it. There is some behind the scenes work too, which doesn't probably get talked about as much, but there are quite a few, especially larger breeders, that want to track sales, track how their sires are doing, track winners, all those sorts of things, which we'll probably get into later with the data discussion. Um, because that's kind of where that came from was like, I'm already watching the sales, why don't I just start recording the data and see where that takes me? So um, yeah, so that's pretty much what pinnacle is. It can be anything. I mean, I truly want it, especially the social media platform is a little different. I want to create a community there, and that's really what I've strived for since day one. So I want people to feel open and comfortable enough with me and with that to not only use the information or the resources or the entertainment or whatever I'm putting on there, but not be afraid to reach out and say, you know, hey, I'm struggling with this. Like, do you have anyone that can help me with this or any advice or whatever? Because, like we talked about earlier, I mean, you just don't know what you don't know. And even now, I mean, I'm blessed with a network of people that are not afraid to answer my text messages or Snapchats or phone calls when I'm like, this thing is not eating, or what do I do with a rub on the back of the leg? Like, whatever. I'm still learning every day. We all learn every day and see new things. These are animals, okay? They will test you. Well, um, you know, I want to create that place, and part of that's after watching these like discussion groups and forum groups on social, and just I'm sorry if this offends anyone listening, but I cringe a little bit inside because maybe if I was starting right now from scratch and didn't know anybody, I would do that too. But it just like hurts me a little inside to be like, don't you have a friend? Don't you have a friend that will help you or guide you in the right direction? So that's what I'm hoping to do on the on the platform side.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

You almost have to wonder, like at some point, with and I don't mean to bag on the forums or anything either, but you have to wonder at some point, like, how did this person even get interested in this without knowing someone else? You know, like who just randomly picks up, yeah, you know, or like they live in the city. I'm gonna just we're gonna go buy a pig and show it somewhere, you know. I don't know where. And no, those people play soccer or lacrosse, or you know, I'm just making that up, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Or do you did you do your homework before? I don't did you know that these things get sick or like have problems? I don't know, but yeah, that's I and it's not just the show ring because there's plenty of you know, small niche hobby farmers and those sorts of things that are just getting started. My brother and I have had this conversation. Maybe that would have been us too. Like we learned from a book. We had like a you know, dummy's guide to showing cattle or whatever it was, and like that's how we learned. I mean, we read magazines, we absorbed whatever we could until we knew the people that we knew we could go to and ask these questions and learn from. So um I get it, but yeah, it so that's I hope that I create an environment on the pinnacle platform so people recognize like, okay, this lady knows some stuff, I can probably ask her, and if she doesn't know, she'll find me somebody that does know. So because I there's a lot of power and connection.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

So the reoccurring theme that I'm seeing like over and over and over is like find your circle, find your people. And and I'm very much like in my small business, I read some books and I learn things from them, and then I implement them. And I try to kind of just stay on like let's say for sales, there's so many different ways to sell. I pick one sales technique and like stick to it. Because if you start pulling things from different ones, then it gets kind of weird. And I think the information you're getting from your circle needs to kind of be the same way. Like, you know, pick your core five people or whatever, and and just kind of stick with them for a certain amount of time anyway, while you're learning things.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, you ask, I mean, I read it all the time, or I'll use a radical example, although I have seen it on there. Like, my goat needs to gain, you know, 80 pounds by next week.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, in two weeks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

A what why are you waiting that long to ask for help and then B like everybody has a different opinion? Everybody has a different opinion, and I'm guilty of the same thing. I mean, my better half Ray will remind me of this all the time when he's like, Why are you asking so many people? But I'm like, I know now what things will work for me, whether it's you know, the materials I have on hand or if it fits into my management system or whatever it is. So, like, you know, I but I have a set of people like I know I'm gonna go to for like animal husbandry versus respiratory problems versus breeding problem. I mean, there's just but yeah, and it takes time. It takes time to figure out who who's your people. I mean, starting point number one is the breeder. That's where all of this, like, that's where all of this ties together, I think, is right the perception that you build that leads to your customers, that leads to that relationship where you can at least get started having somebody to help.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

So yeah, and I feel like I'm kind of cheating because uh through the podcast, I'm kind of learning these things and getting in touch with these people where you know I'm I'm not gonna bag on anyone that I've talked to yet, but you know, would they take the time to talk to me otherwise? I don't know. Probably I don't know, but you know, I I just feel like I'm at an advantage because I'm kind of kind of putting these people in my pocket, you know what I mean? Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

But you're sharing it, but you're doing it to share, and that's that's why I think people are probably doing it.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yep, you kind of brought up perception a little bit and people building their reputations. What does perception really mean in the show world? Or just I don't know, it could be just in the world.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

I love this. I love this. I love the word perception. I mean, it's something that I've talked about and for lack of a better word, studied or tried to learn them as much as I can about it from early on, because I was in sales and I was leading teams, and perception is reality, period. My perception is my reality, your perception is your reality. Perception is different for everyone, it's how you see the world, it's the glasses you wear and how you view things. So I think that's maybe an important part to remember is that we're not all the same, thank goodness, or it would be a very boring world and we would not make very much progress at all. Right. But, you know, in our world in particular, our very niche. Little world, and I think we forget that we're only a little bit, we're only a little bit of the whole ball of wax here, but we are in an industry that A is very competitive, and B is solely focused around what people think of your product. Like, and we're not sh and we're not shy about it. I saw something this morning that was like, you can't offend me. I pay for someone to judge me. And like that is so accurate, right? Like, we spend all this time and all this money and all this energy, like getting an animal ready and hauling it to a show and paying for a hotel and the fuel and the truck and the trailer and the entry fees, like for one person standing on a microphone to tell us if they like it or not in like two minutes or less. You know, it's ludicrous. But at the end of the day, that's what we're all here to do. You know, we want to bring and present an animal that we are proud of and think should be competitive, and someone's gonna tell us if it is or isn't. So I think that that little piece of mindset or mentality or whatever just gets woven through all of it. It just gets woven through all of it. And, you know, largely we live in uh an over-stimulated world, okay? Like, especially with how many people there are getting into this space, like let's say from the breeder side of it. So, you know, it's just so critical. Not that you have to be perceived the same way or very well by everybody, because maybe those aren't your people, but your perception and the reputation and the brand that you build is absolutely how people are going to identify you. I mean, period. Period of the end, like how you present yourself and the things that you focus on and the things that you talk about, all of these things, all of these little pieces of the puzzle go into how people are going to perceive you. So whether or not that's important for everyone the same way, maybe not, probably not, but ultimately that is going to change who wants to do business with you, who wants to hang out with you at the show, who wants to sell you a next great one, you know, add in all of the things.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

So, what do you think is the most important thing for me to focus on for someone else? How do I want to put this? For someone else's perception of me. You know, I'm new in the industry, and I let's say I just show up at a jackpot or something like that. What what should I do?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

So, and I did think about this a little bit because I'm not sure that it is a one-size-fits-all answer, because at the end of the day, we are all going to be different as far as our goals and our resources, like what we're able to commit to this and what we want to get out of it. So I think knowing that going into your show season, sale season, whatever it is, breeding season, etc. etc., with a clear vision of what's important to you, what your goals are, and how you're gonna get there, that ultimately is how people will perceive you. So that's everything. I mean, that's let's say you're hauling in and you're stalling inside or whatever. How clean is your space? How well cared for are your animals? Are you rushing around? Are you fighting with your kids in front of people? Are you yelling at the superintendents? Are you complaining? Or are you kind? Are you helpful? Do you see someone next to you that, you know, their blower isn't working or they didn't know they needed a blower and you're done with yours, so you lend it to them? I mean, all of these little interactions, because at the end of the day, this is a people business, okay? The animals, the products, the whatever we're doing, buy products. This is about the people. So I truly think how you show up, if you can be very true to you and what those goals are and what's important to you and what you want people to know is important to you, that's all you can do. Be authentic, be intentional. Those are the two things we talk about in our household a lot. Um, because you're going to attract a certain type of person. So if you go out and you are trying to be something different than you are, it's not gonna con you're not gonna connect. People are not gonna seek you out. They're gonna know that you're putting on a show. If you can be authentic, whether it's you can be the authentic first-time show dad, man. Like, roll in and ask a million questions and go and ask for help. I still ask a million questions. Pro show show pe show superintendents probably see me coming and they're like, oh god, she's coming back again.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

But yeah, I'm gonna I'm going the other way.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, like I mean, just wing it. But that's how you find your people too. So, like, I don't think that truly caring enough, you should care about your perception in the sense that it accurate accurately represents you. And that is how you find your tribe and your right people to connect with. So, like I said, I think that we probably all have probably been places. Let's not even say the show ring, okay? Let's say like Walmart, okay? We've all been to Walmart. God bless the people of the Walmart pages. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

But there's a Facebook page, you know, dedicated to just like people of Walmart.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

I just I can't go on to something like that, or it would be such a dark hole for me. I wouldn't ever get out of it. But you do have to think. I mean, and we talk about that. Like, what do okay, these people did not have to feed livestock this morning, okay? They are not getting ready to like perfect their showmanship and enter a ring. I mean, there is definitely a way that you come off to other people, which is ultimately your perception, how they perceive you, that truly should showcase what's important to you. And if you're going to Walmart on a Saturday morning because you're out of milk and whatever, you're dressed like people at Walmart page, like, no big deal, but you're not gonna roll in to a show like that. If you're hauling into Louisville and your goal is to make the cut and get onto the chips and be successful, like you're not gonna act like that, or you shouldn't, or you're probably not gonna achieve your goals. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Let's let's talk about how does perception show up in in online sales and sale photos and like catalogs.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

This is a good this is a good question. This is a good question. Because I think something that and I guess I'll I'll take it because I know there's a lot of new families that listen to this that are just getting started. So I guess I live in a world of disclaimers. So I will give a little bit of a disclaimer and I'll say like some, you know, some of this is for the buyer and some is also for the seller, okay? Because we all want, we all want to. I I think that we all want to. Maybe we all don't want to, and maybe we all don't care. But I think we all want to do well in whatever capacity that is and put our best foot forward. So, and this is why I focus so much on social media and digital marketing, because it is very easy to create a right or wrong perception when you do these things, okay? When you're selling or buying livestock. And we can probably talk for several days, and I can call a lot of other people to have a discussion on what these sale photos should look like, etc. etc. But it is marketing. Just like your social media business page is and should be a piece of your marketing plan, so are your sale photos. Okay. So do I think you need, let's say you're starting out and you want to sell your first set of animals, whatever they are, online. Do I think you need to go out and hire the most expensive photographer and fly them in and do all this over-the-top content? Probably not, because that's probably not really where you are. So if you try to give that impression, or you're gonna land, you're not gonna land the right people. And quite honestly, if your livestock you're selling, your first year you're selling them, demands the prices and the value that people that do certain things are doing, like I would be surprised. I would be very surprised. Good for you, good on you if that's the case. But there is a certain amount of trial and error and learning as you go and building a program versus just opening the gate, and here you go, every animal is 10k plus and they look perfect in their pictures. No, man, like you gotta suffer through some bad picture days, and like try a lot of people try to do it themselves, which I think is fine. We tend to picture some stuff ourselves, but when we actually are gonna do like a full online set, we'll hire somebody in. But yes, the perception of how you market your animals is incredibly important in this space for a multitude of reasons, but it should be done honestly. This is just my opinion, okay? This is just my opinion, and probably a lot of people, because I have a lot of these conversations, but it should be done honestly and accurately, because I think that's probably one of the biggest, if not the ultimate biggest gripe of any online purchase, is it didn't look like that when it got to me.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Oh I I I'm thinking about have you ever eaten a subway? Yes. You know, you you walk in and they got a picture of the sandwich on the board, and it's like, dang, that thing looks good. And so you so you order it up and you get to the end, and you're like, that does not look like the picture. But you know, you pick it up, you eat it, and it it's pretty good. It's all right. Yeah, but that's kind of how I feel like some of the online stuff is in the catalogs. And I'm not saying anyone's trying to fool anyone, but yeah, some of some of the photographers are really good.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yep, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Do they have some tips and tricks to make things look a certain way? Sure. Probably, just like the subway sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yep. And it's a little bit like I'm trying to think of another good analogy because the way that people perceive your product is going to determine a like for social media purposes, your ultimate goals to stop them from scrolling. Okay. Somebody's scrolling through their phone, picture, picture, picture, picture. Oh my god, there's so many sheep for sale right now. Picture, like, ooh, this one looks really good. Let me click on the sale link. Let me learn more about their operation and that sort of thing. So, like, goal number one. Goal number two, does it make them want to reach out to you and connect with you and maybe come to your farm and see the animals? Like, goal number two. Goal number three, how much are they willing to spend? I mean, I again, I will not jump again and talk too much about the data, but I can pretty much tell you based on someone's pictures at this point what their sale is going to average in the online space. Unless for some like unless for some reason they really have some deep connections and those things look great in person and somebody went to see them. But if we are just relying on the online space and pictures, you can kind of tell at this point. So, like, perception is value, perception is reality. So, how you present your animals on a sale platform is crucial. Again, does that have to be a professional photographer? No, I just went and helped a friend of mine picture yesterday. We used my phone and we made sure they were clean, we made sure we had a good backdrop, we had, you know, they were as broke as broke could be. I hope he listens to this podcast and he's like, Yeah, that was me. But and like we paid attention to little details that are important to get across a good image that, hey, we care, right? Like, we put effort into this because we care, we're proud of the animals, we want you to come and see them and put your value on them. So that's his goal, right? Like, if you are on the other end of the spectrum, some of these bigger breeders that have better photographers, better facilities, better staff, better whatever, like, yeah, I would hope that their pictures look better than mine on my camera or on my phone. Like, that it that makes sense. Like, just like the good animals should sell well. That's common sense how that should work. So, you know, do you need to do everything over the top and spend your entire marketing budget on one sale? No. That's why you ask. Ask your SC or like whoever it is, your online sale rep. I love SC, so I always say SC, but like, ask your rep, ask me, pay a consultant, ask your friend, just open your eyes and ears and pay attention to the world around you and pick up some cues of like, you know, obviously, if there is garbage laying on the ground behind you and you can see it, or the animal is dirty and skinny, or whatever. I mean, it paints it's another pain for me to see animals presented like that because there's a lot for sale. There's a lot of animals for sale. Why do I want to stop and click on your picture? Why do I want to take it a step farther? Connect with you, go see your animals in person and go and buy them and bring them here. Like it does it or doesn't do it. So there are definitely some basic things I think everybody could do without hiring in the best photographer and doing all of the things. Um, and I mean I think you alluded to it, but it's worth it's worth saying that every part of this process, whether it's selling, buying, showing, prepping, whatever, and it's not just our world, it's the sports, it's the whatever, there are going to be good, the good, the bad, and the ugly. There are going to be the right ways to do it, the wrong ways to do it, and a whole lot of in-between in that gray area. So, you know, that goes back to the original point of being authentic and true to you and your goals and your values. If your goal is to just sell the highest selling land this week, then by golly, get after it. Okay, you need to start drenching, you need to start working legs, that thing better be broke, that thing better be pictured right, it better be on the right night, you better be recruiting people to come to your place and see it. Like, there's multiple things that need to happen for that to happen. And if that's what you want to do, get after it, you know? But if you on the other end say, this is our first year, be honest about it. This is our first year. We want these lambs or these calves or whatever to go to good homes. We're gonna describe them as accurately as we can. We've invested money in genetics, we'll help you as much as we can, but we're not experts when it comes to the finishing of them, but we'll point you in a direction of somebody. Yeah, oh yeah, I'd rather deal with somebody like that than somebody that's just going to put up a fake smoke screen and I'm gonna get the Timu shipment and be really disappointed at what it looks like when it gets off the trailer.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah, so so from the buyer's perspective, any words of advice so they make sure they get the right sandwich?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yes, the right sandwich. I'm gonna use that. Yes, we all want to get the right beefy sandwich from Subway. I mean, A, I cannot stress enough. Don't rely on just the picture, okay? Do not rely on just the picture and just the sale write up. At minimum, figure out what your goals are, what your budget is. I mean, as specific goals as you can get to, what your end show is, what your true idea of success for your sale season, or your breeding season, if you're just buying something to be a breeding piece. Really get as specific as you can with that and connect with the breeder and make sure that that's a good fit. If you're gonna want support after a sale, if you just want to buy an animal and scroll on, then do it. Scroll the internet, look at a million of them, pick the one you want and go for it. Um, because I know it's not realistic to go see them all, okay. That if I was going to give a perfect piece of advice, go see them in person. And if you don't know what you're looking at, don't be afraid to ask. Because everybody, no matter how big or small, started somewhere. Okay. Nobody started being the biggest and best. Like we all started somewhere. Well, I mean, I guess that would probably be my advice. If you can't go see them in person, at least reach out and make sure that you're getting what you want. Do not do not do this, okay? Do not ask for a million videos and all of the things if you have no real intention of buying, because that is just a waste of everybody's time and energy, and nobody has time for that.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

But really be so on a sale day, they're busy.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Yes. On a sale day they're busy. Don't wait until sale day. I mean, yeah, in a perfect world, you're doing your homework, okay? And that goes back to social media. I mean, develop relationships and connect before sale season even starts. Like, what are these people posting about? I don't know, where are they? What kind of pictures are they putting up? Do they care about the same things I care about? Start a conversation before that. But if you do get down to sale day, a use your watch list if you are an online buyer, because that will save you a lot of time scrolling back and forth. And B, yeah, don't be afraid. I think at the end of the day, and I did write this down as one thing I wanted to like get across at some point, especially from a seller standpoint and from a buyer. One of the biggest goals and or frustrations that I hear on repeat always is that we want them in a good home. Okay, as a breeder, I would sell my best heifer, lamb, whatever, for half the money if it went somewhere that I knew they were going to be cared for, managed properly, fed correctly, not mistreated, not you know, not ignored. All of the things, okay? Because you can take the best animal you have ever raised and sell it to somebody who can't feed their way out of a wet paper bag. It doesn't matter. That's a waste it you wasted the last year, two years, whatever it was, planning that mating, buying the semen, setting up the you or the cow or whatever, getting the animal on the ground, getting it weaned, getting it washed, broke, pictured, sold, and then it's like nothing. You know, like we don't do this for fun. This is a business and it's something that we love. If you don't love this, you're not in this business because there's a lot of not great days. So, you know, I would definitely recognize that you need to work on your own program too and develop those relationships because don't go your first year, don't go out and spend, and I don't maybe people do this. I guess I don't have this kind of money to waste, but don't go out year one and think you're gonna spend twenty thousand dollars on a lamb or a steer or whatever and have success with it.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Unless you're unless you're hiring in somebody that's gonna manage that animal for you, or it's staying at somebody else's house. I don't do any of those things, but I know they exist. So, you know, be realistic, okay? Be realistic, have conversations and make sure you're getting the right one. Because nine times out of ten, especially as a buyer, the breeder knows those bloodlines, they know how they feed, they know how they grow, they know what they truly know or they should know what to expect. So if you say, hey, my fair is in mid-June and we're gonna hit two jackpots, and that's it, cool. These are the ones you should look at.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

You know, I I really think that there is a lot to be said for connecting with the breeder and having those honest conversations about goals, and that's step one on being successful for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Let's talk about uh perception in one more way, and that's like the fitting. I'm just gonna lump these all together. The fitting, the presentation, and the showmanship, just kind of everything that goes into the ring. How does the perception fit in with those key areas?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

This one I this one I love and I also loathe all at the same time, because A, like, let's just think back to the people at Walmart. Like, when you put it in that context, it's so easy to be like, yeah, I get it. But when you look at the ring, there are definitely basics, okay? Like, if it's my first year showing and I can check these things off my list, I'm doing good and then I grow from there. A, your animal being clean, as well presented as you can get it. Do not be afraid to ask for help, okay? Like, if you think you're gonna do all of this by yourself year one and find success, God bless you. I mean, I I hope you find it, but it's not going to be easy, okay? Like, they need to be clean, they need to be presented in an appropriate manner. Okay. You're not going to take a big fluffy animal into a slick shear show. Or you're not going to take a like, please, God, don't shear all the leg wool off of one and then walk it into the ring. Like, there are definitely industry standards that you should be trying to come close to. Okay. We all know that there is another level, right? Like, once you are comfortable in the basic, basic management and presentation, then you go up and start looking at the other things. Um, but truly doing the basics, okay? You are clean and well presented. You don't need the fanciest clothes or the fanciest shoes or the fanciest shirt, okay? I have spent many a day at Goodwill or a thrift store or wherever I did not have the money growing up. My mom would have killed me if I ever was like, I need$200 for a pair of jeans to go get dirty and walk into a ring for two minutes. Like, that wouldn't have happened. Now, when we're able, do we buy those certain things or do we ask very loving grandparents and whoever to buy that for us so that we look a certain way or can present our yeah, sure. Like that's if that's something you can do, do it. But you don't have to. You need to be clean and professional. Period. That can look a lot of different ways. That's a whole nother podcast session, and we won't go down that rabbit hole. But I think it's pretty simple before you go to your first show, go to a show, right? Like back to your, I don't think anybody just picks this up and decides this is a good idea. Go to a show, sit in the bleachers, watch the kids that are doing well, whether it's in showmanship or the type classes. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they're wearing clean jeans, solid shoes, button down, a belt, hair is neat. Like there are certain things that you can check the box of without spending a ton of money. But when you walk into that ring and your animal also is somewhat up to let's say industry standards, um, you're starting in the right direction. That's step one. And then you build because you have to get comfortable with timing how to get to the ring and when to wash, and there's when to feed, when to drench. Like, there's so many other things that probably your first year you're gonna be worried about that, like the way your hair looks walking into the ring is probably gonna be super low on the priority list. But then year two, it's like, okay, we've established this, this, and this. We need better clippers, we need to learn how to clip legs in better. Like, then you work on that, right? Like being realistic with yourselves and your expectations and your goals. We do it every year. We still do it. Every show we go to, we're like, okay, what are we trying to do? Like, this one's a knucklehead. Let's try to survive. This one's been, you know, we think this one's a good fit in this division. Like, let's get after it, let's focus on that one and try to get it shown and like hopefully whatever, you know, set your own goals and expectations, but be realistic about it. So, yeah, because I think, and I I guess I skipped over. I do judge a little bit too. I don't advertise that a lot because I don't do as much now as I used to, but I will say, as being someone on the other side of the microphone, and I'm old, okay, like I'm not newly out of college, so there is definitely a uh generational maybe difference. I don't really care what you're wearing as long as you are taking what you're doing as seriously as I am taking what I'm doing. So I'm giving up my time for let's be honest, judges don't get paid a lot, right? Like I'm taking time for my schedule, my family, and my things I had to do to come and spend time with these kids in this ring. And I take that seriously. This is an industry that I love and I'm passionate about, and I want to see continue, and I take it seriously. So if I see some kid come in with a shirt untucked and straw in the belly, hair on the legs, or poop on its butt, or a halter on backwards, guess what? I'm not gonna I'm not gonna look hard at you. Like that's just a matter of fact. If you come in the ring and you have clearly done your homework, your animals broke, even if it's not perfect, right? They're not all gonna be perfect all the time, but you have clearly done your work, you care what you're doing, you're professional about what you're doing in the ring, then yes, I'm gonna be drawn to you. There is a certain amount of showmanship, even if it's not the showmanship class, that will pull the judge toward you towards you and want them, make them want to pay attention to you.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

So and again, let me ask you on that a little bit. So, like if you see a young kid, maybe you're gonna assume that's their first two, three years showing. We pull them aside and just say something to them. Hey, you know, maybe you should tuck your shirt in or whatever, whatever. Because I I feel like that is kind of a spot for those kids to learn.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah, I mean, I think especially if it is showmanship, it depends on the class, probably. I do like to take time, especially to smaller show, right? Like we all we all tend to think that like uh your local jackpot is like the national western, and it's not. But like it depends on the show, and for sure in showmanship. Absolutely. I love, especially in the younger classes, to be able to take some time and visit. And I was always taught when I grew up, go up and ask the judge after the show. Like, that's what they're there for, you know. They obviously have some level of care for what they're doing if they're here doing it. So go ask if you're not sure you didn't get enough of an explanation. But yeah, I it's a little hard because I do think you can tell as a judge, as an evaluator, who maybe doesn't have the best guidance as well, which all you have to do is pay attention and open your eyes, and you can kind of tell, like, their things are backwards, they don't look comfortable, they maybe don't even look happy to be there, the animal's acting up, it's just like a bad whatever. So typically, I might pick one or two things like, hey, let's tie your halter up, right? So it's not dragging on the ground, or let's make sure that your showstick is not like jabbing your neighbor. Like, usually that's just my take on it. I'll try to pick maybe one or two things that hopefully they'll remember because kids in that moment don't always remember like 17 things that you tell them. Um, but yeah, I would hope that, and I do I do think most judges would take the time. And like I said, and even for the parents that maybe are listening to this to know, go up and ask after. You know, don't hesitate to be like, hey, you know, my daughter was in Pee-Wee showmanship or junior showmanship today. We're just getting started. Do you have any tips or advice?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

I like that because a lot of times when you go to a show, you just hear about the top two or three things, or two or three uh, you know, participants or animals or whatever, and then the rest of the class kind of falls off.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I didn't, I guess that's one thing I grew up being fortunate with, and maybe it's because I started at smaller shows and not going to the big venues, but I was used to judges being very relatable and supportive, and that's something that I just have carried with me and tried to pay forward. So, and not every judge is a showmanship judge. Okay, here's a little pro tip for the parents in the audience, like, and depending on what show it is and how many species they want you to judge and everything, like, not every evaluator is maybe finely tuned for each category of things that they're asked to judge, right? Like, normally a show has a set budget, it's usually not that big, and they are hoping that you will do things that you maybe don't even want to do. But, like, you know, Ray and I will travel together, I will do showmanship and he will do the market or whatever, you know, because he probably doesn't isn't naturally as wired as I am to take that time to talk to the kids, even though if they went up and asked you would answer. So, um, judging shows, that's a whole nother episode because there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. But it is, you know, and look at the judge. If the judge is well presented, right? Like we try to dress professionally in the ring and clean and neat, and you come in the opposite, that's probably not a good way to start that relationship for the little bit of time that you have to spend together. I don't know if that answered your question, because I feel like we went, I don't know if that answered your question or not, but uh I think that was perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Because we talked a little bit about uh the showmanship and and the perception. I th I think that's perfect. Let's get off the perception train.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

And let's talk a little let's talk a little bit about social media. Obviously, it's a pretty big part of the the showstock world. What role does social media actually play in that world right now? Is it the whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Is it part of it? Well, I don't know if I could put a percentage on it, but it's big. I would say that it's big. And part of that, like I think I mentioned earlier that we all live in this kind of overstimulated world at this point, right? Like we're all trying to do a million things at once. Um, there's an old marketing rule. Maybe it's not, maybe we're not thinking about marketing, but I'm gonna say it's marketing. So back in the whatever years it was where people were driving by billboards, the old marketing rule or rule of thumb used to be you needed to make seven impressions on a person before they ever thought about coming to see you or contacting you and making a potential buying decision. Okay. That was like when we literally they could gauge it because they were driving by billboards and then making that decision. So they kind of knew, right? And that has been the that has been the the golden rule of marketing forever. They have to see you seven times. Well, yeah, lately that number is more like 40 plus, 40 plus plus plus.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

You were overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Yes. You're we're all connected and digitally engaged and whatever. So just think about that and how easy that is to do on social media. That's why I think it's such an interesting marketing tool, because if you're relying on, and I'm not talking smack on any one form of advertising because I think that there's ways to use all of them in combination, depending on what your goals are. But if you're relying on taking out one magazine out a year as your marketing for your farm, like probably not gonna get it. Who's gonna see that? You know, how many times are they gonna see it before they throw it out? That is the beauty of social media, because you can be out in front of people pretty regularly for free or not a lot of money, setting that standard and building that brand and getting people used to seeing you. So that's part of it. I mean, and it I try to tell people that's kind of mistake number one that a lot of farms or breeders make is not treating their business page like a business. Okay, like don't rely on your personal page. I always encourage separation from personal to business. Maybe that's just me, but I do think it's important and truly look at it as part of your marketing for your business. What are people gonna do? People don't really pull up websites anymore. Sometimes they do, maybe as a reference point, um, especially on the genetic side or to order product or whatever. But if I hear somebody's name or hear of a farm or hear of a show, first thing I'm doing is pulling up Facebook and dialing it in to see what comes up. Yep. Now I say Facebook because I'm old and I've been reminded of such a couple of times, but that's where a lot of business is done. There are other platforms, but that's most of the time I talk about Facebook, and I maybe I'm a you know success story on that or whatever, but I do think somebody told me when I was first getting started, pick one, pick the one that you want to be on and focus on it because they're all different. How they work, the algorithms, the content, the whatever, they're all different.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

I don't want to date myself either, but to me, Facebook is like the classified ads that you used to look in the newspaper. You know what I mean? It's like that's kind of what Facebook is now.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah, for sure. I mean, and it's but it goes deeper. Like, I don't know if we had on our on our list to talk about, you know, and this is directly related to the show ring. I think when I was growing up, because I hear a lot from show families wondering, you know, do I need to make a Facebook for my kid that's showing so their faces visible and that sort of thing. And I that goes into a whole like different conversation, probably on what your personal and family goals and beliefs are and all that. And I don't think it's a necessity, but also it can't not be important, right? Like when I was growing up, my grandpa would take me around and introduce me to people face to face, and I would shake their hand and we would make that connection, right? Like well, that has to matter at some point.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

One thing you talked about earlier with like let's say the$20,000 animal that sold that uh breeder is looking for that animal to be placed well and to do really well as a form of advertisement for them. So on the other side of that, the I I get really nerdy about marketing. So I I've been like really quiet here, but on the other side of that, if your animal's going to a family that maybe is not gonna represent it, say on social media, then it's like uh, you know, I really wanted that. And if I'm only getting the backdrop picture, hopefully, you know, it say the$20,000 animal is placed right. If I if I'm only getting the backdrop picture, like I missed a lot of marketing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yes, and that's why there's people that hire people like me to hunt them down and hopefully, you know, because I don't know if show families even recognize like buy the ring shots, you know, like pay a photographer once a year to do a photo shoot and that sort of thing. These are just some things that we've done that I think have helped. But yeah, it's absolutely important. It's absolutely important, and yeah, again, we could probably go down, we could probably go down a whole nother rabbit hole there, but I do think even on my personal page, I try to make sure that I'm authentic and intentional, always, but make sure that I am putting a good face forward. And I that's kind of like the good and the bad of social media, right? Like, and I think there's some mindset things that go along with that. Like, you're looking at people's highlight reels, okay? Like, I'm not going to post a picture ever looking like I just rolled out of bed and like haven't slept in three days, and life is so bad, and blah blah blah. That's not me, that's not the kind of energy I want to put out. That's not the image that I want to put out, and I think there's enough bad news if you watch the news. So, like, I don't want to go to social media and look at that. So, I think there are some very basic, just common sense sorts of things that you could do as a family and as a young showman, because honestly, a lot of these showmen have Facebook pages now. I mean, you know, there's a lot more teenagers and young adults that are getting on social media, probably a little bit more on Instagram and TikTok and things like that. Right. Not just for the show ring, okay, because we're looking at this little part of our universe, recognize that it's a lot bigger, okay? Like maybe the guy running the show that you're showing at that you're blasting all over TikTok in a really negative way, maybe he's the hiring manager at a company that you're gonna go and try to get an internship for. Yeah. Or, you know, like that's the thing about our world, it's very small. It does not take long at all to start connecting dots and be like, oh my gosh, yeah, I know you through them via that show or this event, and now here we are interacting again. So just being smart and being a good person at the end of the day, on you know, on social media, because that is a direct reflection of you, or people think it is. So, you know, be aware of be aware of that. And I guess that's again, I try to be authentic on there. People I think get that. I've had a lot of feedback directly about that. You know, you're the same person in person as you are in social media. I'm like, that's great, because that's the only way I know how to be. Like, I just know how to be me. That's it. But yeah, I think a lot of times we try to hide behind social media and maybe make that image a little different than what we actually are, and that might last for a while, but it won't last forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

On the other side of that, I think of you know, there's a handful that we probably all know on social media, like Dadson Farms that are super popular on social media, but like not everyone needs to get into it to that point either. Yes. And some people probably need to realize that like they're getting endorsements and all different kinds of stuff on the back end of that, so they're getting paid to create some of that content, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Yes, yeah. I mean, that's I don't know if people recognize that there are people making money on social media, and that is their life. And I I don't know that family, I know them just from social media, and honestly, we need people like that that aren't afraid to be out in the public eye, so I am completely supportive of them, but I do often wonder if maybe that can backfire also. Like I'd be interested to know maybe if that's backfired on them, or if people see the kids in the ring and want to prove a point and not use them, or or judge them harder if they've been out in the public eye. So I think you probably have to be careful either way, but you can make money on social media. I mean, I don't I'm signed up. I mean, full disclosure, I'm a transparent, honest person. Like, I'm signed up for monetization. I've had a few videos go kind of semi-viral. Like, you make a couple bucks. I don't know. Like, I'm not that's not why I'm making content. That's not my driver. If it was my driver, my content would probably be different just to get just to get more reactions. But yeah, it's gotta be important. I mean, and sometimes a lot of it is subconscious. That's I think people forget that what you see in the material or the whatever it is that you are absorbing and engaging with, it's affecting you, it's impacting you. Whether you realize it right now or months down the road when you're triggered by something or recall something. I mean, that's it's all what you take in. So, you know, and that's the beautiful thing, I guess, about social media is that they these apps want you to stay on. So, like, that's the point behind that's like basic dummy 101 algorithm, is like they want you to stay on. So, what you are engaging with, whether it's slowing down to look at or liking or commenting or sharing or messaging, that is what it's going to send you. It's going to send you similar platforms, similar people, similar pages of interest. So be cognizant of that. You know, if you're going online and your main focus is just being a little keyboard warrior and you know, beating people up and really feeling good about yourself. Guess what? That's what's gonna get pushed to you. Like, and that cycle's gonna continue. But if you're going on and engaging with positive, you know, industry connections and whatever, guess what? You're seeing their stuff, they're also seeing your stuff, just one big spider web and digital network of people. So that's as basic as I can put it down. I would say that, you know, pay attention to what you're interacting with for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:11

You brought up some of the data earlier. Mm-hmm. What made you, besides the fact that you were watching them anyway, what made you start tracking and sharing all that information?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Uh, apparently I have nothing better to do with my time is what has happened. Yeah, so I like you, I mean, I'm not very, very number driven, but these sorts of numbers really drive me. So I, you know, I've been doing the sale tracking, I guess, for two years now, and I've picked up some more people than I'm doing it for, and I find myself just literally scrolling every sale site and watching all of the things go down. And I think probably more people do that than admit they do that. That's part of doing your homework and being aware of what's going on in the industry. Okay, it's not like totally. Total rocket science, what I'm doing. But I was starting to record some of it, and it just kind of piqued my interest. Like, wow, you know, because last year, let's say, and this is just in the sheep world now, that may be changing, right? But, you know, last year there's been this discussion, and when I worked in Repro, there was a big push for making older sheep, right? So, like these last few years, we've seen a big push towards fallborns and in specific markets. And last year I felt like just watching the sales and watching my breeders specifically, like it started off real strong, and then it kind of hit a wall and plateaued, and the end of fall season was like super, super sad. And then it picked back up again. And I just I started seeing some of those things over this last year or two, and I like having those conversations. I mean, a lot of my conversate, my daily conversations are around this industry and what's going on in it. So, A, obviously, I am building a brand, okay? Like Pinnacle is new and I want it to stand alone. And so part of it is like, I want to make myself a valuable resource and make that platform a valuable resource. So just at some point, I don't even know what day it was, it wasn't even like really specific. I just started looking at like a weekly average and talking to my friend about it, and it was like, oh, maybe I should just share this online, you know, and then here I am like 13 or 14 or whatever weeks later, like sharing a weekly report about it. Um, because I think that, and this is a little bit deep probably for this conversation, but I do think at some point in your life you're called to give back and to use your resources and talents and knowledge and all of the things that you're good at to help other people. And so, like, that feeling plus the daily conversations and everything I was kind of seeing just clicked one day, and I was like, I'm just gonna start sharing it, and maybe nobody will care. Like, I don't because like social media is so funny, I will put a lot of effort occasionally into like something super educational or really inspirational, and like it won't get any reactions, and then I put like a picture of a pile of dirty leg wraps up, and like people go nuts over it. So, like, you just don't know. I was like, I don't know if anybody else is gonna feel interested, but I do think the industry as a whole has lacked some transparency when it comes to prices, like you know, the cattle world, for example, there are regional reps or breed associations or other platforms that will share, like, hey, this production sale average, bull sold for this, heifers sold for this, pears sold for this. So, like, that has never been in our world. So the more I started recording it and being like, oh, this is kind of interesting, maybe other people should know too. Then I just started sharing it. And so now I do it weekly, I still haven't done today's. It takes a lot of time, like more time. I guess I wasn't really anticipating when I started it, like still doing it and how much time it would require. Luckily, I have a friend that helps me record data. Uh, I am looking for a long-term solution now that it seems like it's something that people really find value in. So, like full transparency for my brand and my platform, which I have big plans and aspirations for, and community building things, you know, it has helped. Like people have loved it and grabbed onto it. I definitely have a lot of really positive conversations about just the facts. I was out at Hildes at their sale, the brand sale last weekend in Iowa. And I had a breeder sit down next to me and tell me that he's using it, like he's using the data to make breeding decision decisions and mating decisions for the following year. So, like, that's cool, man. Like, that's the stuff that fills my bucket. That's the stuff that really makes me feel good about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Um, because like I said earlier, I started really vague and I'm like slowly starting to find where I really fit and where my talents and gifts can be used. So, yeah, so now I do it once a week. I track all the data. I have a friend that helps me with the data, and I watch most of them, not all of them, but most of them, because it's kind of like watching a live sale. Like, you can, especially when you get down to the extended bidding and like the wee hours of final call and stuff like that. Like, it's kind of exciting to watch. Like, if you're in this business and don't like watching animals sell for big money, like check your pulse, okay? Like, you can be a little bitterbetty about it because your stuff didn't sell as well, but like we need the good ones to sell good. That's how, like, that's part of it. That's what we're striving for, right? So, like, I love it. I think it's cool. Like, you can have as many conspiracy theories as you want about it not being real money or blah blah blah behind the scenes. That's a waste of time and energy, in my opinion. We probably we we probably will never know. You and I will probably never know, or maybe we'll have suspicions, but I think it's fun to watch. So I watch and I take notes and uh then I kind of write a report at the end of the week, and it's been super fun. It's been super fun, it's been time consuming, but super fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

So I I think when you started that out, I had commented on it, could have been that very first post, it seems like, because I'd like, man, this is really neat. I wish we had the data from last year to compare it. Now, moving forward, now we will have if you if you continue with it, because it is a big undertaking. You posted the other day that there was a lot of lambs on sale, basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

Like selling under the money. Selling under the money. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

Yeah, and why do you think that is? Can you decipher from the is there a trend or anything starting to show?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

Oh gosh, I just started sweating. I just started sweating a lot. I guess I have I guess I have suspicions um of it. And largely, I mean, I'll just say I'll just say the elephant in the room. There's a lot of lambs. There are a lot, a lot of lambs for saying I don't know there's going to be so many buyers.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

Yeah, I don't know that. And so that's like I'm I wish we had the data to look at before because then I could decipher.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Like, is it more truly? I don't know. I don't know. It feels it feels like a lot. The thing is, I don't think, and this is just from watching kind of intently, but not to this degree, the last several years. I don't think that this year is much different than the last two to three years as far as how many animals we're seeing and the range in prices and sale averages and things like that. Like you said, now we have numbers, now we can see, you know, where and when and how things are selling, but you know, back to the I will put like one plug in for the marketing piece of this all, back to that perception piece and how people see you. Like if they go on a sales site and there's 20, 30 sales a night, not even on one platform, like we're talking multiple platforms, and yeah, I can start I'm always on social media, okay? Or somebody's sending me screenshots, like I'm always on there. That's my job, that's what I do. So like I'm paying attention constantly. If I'm scrolling it and I don't know who you are, like, have you done your homework? Where are you? Are you talking to people? Are you telling them? Like, your customers, your people don't know what you don't tell them, okay? Whether it seems stupid or you think you're being annoying or whatever, you have to be out in front of people and you have to be doing it because on those big nights, you're gonna get lost. You're just gonna get lost in the shuffle. So I say that to say I do the bad side, I guess, of doing the sale reports is that I do occasionally feel for the smaller guys, okay? I do, because it is really easy to highlight the highlights, okay? We love to see it. We'd love to see 20, 30, 40, 50,000 animals selling. Hell yeah, more of that. We love that. But I will say, and I did not go to school, I went to school for animal sciences, okay, and I didn't not uh math is not my strong suit, that's why I use data sheet, you know, sheets and whatever. But big numbers, like if you sell anything over that 10k threshold, those big numbers will pull the average up quicker than a low number will pull it down. I don't know why that is. Some mathematician can tell me why that is, but just from watching the sales go on and then doing the totals after, I can tell, like, oh yeah, okay, this is gonna bring our, you know, on a week where certain outfits are selling, like, I know our average is gonna look better than it truly is, because I think at the end of the day, if you take a lot of those players out that are that have established programs that have all of the things that they have built over the years, okay, I think the average person is probably averaging a lot closer to a thousand dollars, like barely. I would say barely. If you're averaging 15 and you're a new program, congratulations. Like keep doing what you're doing and building what you're doing building. But we might need to look at we might need to look at why we're not being successful if we're not getting if we're not getting near that thousand dollar mark. Which and that might not pencil. That might not pencil for guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

Well, and that's one one thing I was gonna bring up. Typically, my listeners are probably the new parents on the buyer side, but I do want to talk about the seller side a little bit because you know, you and I talked beforehand, there's a break-even, and a lot of people don't realize that. Like, these breeders have a break-even, and it's probably closer or above a thousand. And you see a lot of these sheep going for 500 to 1,000. Yep, 400, 500, 600, yep. What effect does that have on their break-even when they're selling for less than the break-even?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:41

Yeah, it's not good. It's not good. I mean, the break-even goes up, the break-even goes up for sure. Um that I guess I would hope, I would hope that if there was an if there was an ultimate outcome or silver lining from the reports for your smaller or newer breeders who are just establishing their programs. I hope it gives them some raw information to use that they can gauge their success against and say, wow, you know, we're off base. Like, maybe we should adjust, whether that's your semen cost, whether that's your flush program, maybe you don't need to flush at you, maybe you need to AI your use, maybe you need to look at your other inputs, or you know, I I hope that it would inspire some conversation, excuse me, and not be a deterrent. As if you ask those guys that have the bigger averages, their first sale or their first year of sale or their second year of sale was not that. I mean, that's yeah, like, and that was one of the things that I had written down. Don't compare your first chapter with someone else's 20th chapter, because they're different, they truly are different. And and I think from a buyer's standpoint, this has been a buyer's market, in my opinion. If you're going out and doing the homework yourself, okay. Now, the caveat to that, like we talked earlier, is if you, and I have a tendency to do this, okay. So I'm speaking to myself. Like, if you see one that you're like, man, look at the picture, look at the video, look at the pedigree, like, why is this thing not selling better? You know, like I tend to be like bid, and Ray calls me the one bid wonder because I tend to get animals, and I only been on once like that. Um, and we have been very fortunate. We have been very fortunate with them because we have really paid attention to our management program. But don't get caught up in that without doing the other things, you know, like make sure that that animal meets your goals and reach out to the breeder, even if it's annoyingly an extended bidding and you're not sure if you should, or whatever, because you could end up with something that you don't like. You know, we have big opinions in this business, right? We have big opinions, everybody thinks they're right, they're the best, blah blah blah. That's just it like comes with the territory of what we do at this point. Truthfully, like an unbiased opinion, there are a lot of good animals. There are a lot of good animals out there. I mean, I if I had a bigger barn, a bigger budget, and like someone to help me treadmill these things, I would have a lot more animals in my barn right now. Because I do think that there's a lot of breeders that have done their homework. They have spent money with the right breeders, they have brought the semen in, they have done the things and kept them healthy and all the things, and they're just not getting they're just not getting it yet, but it will come. But it will come. Like, that's you know, and that's again where you need to find either a really good, honest friend or consultant or somebody to say, like, what do we do? You know, did we sell too many? Should we have taken our bottom 10% and shipped them to the sale barn and said forget it? Or, you know, because an online sale, for lack of a better word, also is part of your marketing. It helps you gain outreach to other people you might not get, but also it's marketing. It also you need to sell them too. Like, that's the thing. I think some new people, that'd be a message. That would be a message for a new breeder, I guess, that's getting into online selling. Like, you still have to do your homework, you still have to market other ways. You have to get people to your farm, you have to make relationships, you have to go to other people's farms. That's just putting the online sale together is one piece of it, but it is a piece, right? Like, I'm scrolling through and seeing your averages, other people are scrolling through and seeing your averages. Does that deter them or attract them for next year? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Yeah. So I do want to I want to make sure we make the point that your data that you're gathering is just on online sales. So there's a lot of things that are happening private treaty or on the farm, you know, that can't be figured into that. So if somebody's trying to make a big important life decision, you know, take the data with a grain of salt because it is only that, it's just online.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

It's online, and we do include the live sales that offer online bidding. So, like those the live sales, rightfully so. You're gonna have more money and putting on an online sale, like those prices will probably be inflated. There is magic that is made in a crowd and feeling peer pressure and things like that. So those prices typically will be a little bit higher. Hopefully, people are bringing their good stuff out to market it and show it to people in person. But yeah, absolutely. Take it with a grain of salt and recognize that hopefully, in most situations, not all situations, you're buying more than the animal. Okay, you're buying a connection to that breeder, you're buying, and that's something to talk about beforehand. Like, what help can you give me? Right? Like, and maybe you don't need help, maybe you just want the animal. But I would love to be able to call you and be like, man, this thing is not gaining weight. We've done XYZ. What is going on? Like, that's the stuff you're buying. And the thing that we don't often talk about, but I think needs at least a brief mention because they do work hard and there is a place for them, are traders, okay? Because there's a whole nother avenue that will not be covered on any data set because they're they work in the shadows, so we'll never know what they truly are doing. But that is the value of a trader, okay? Like, if you find somebody, if you're not able to go out and see them in person, you say, Hey, man, like build a connection with someone. You've seen them at state fair, you've seen them somewhere, their kids are winning, or their kids look like they're having fun, whatever your goals are. Like, I want to work with you, okay? Here's my budget, here's what I want to accomplish. Let me know what you find. And they are going out looking at thousands of these things, okay. I don't know how they even do it and like maintain a home life because they're constantly on the road looking at live animals, but that's a whole nother avenue that maybe new people don't even know exists. There are middlemen, and that's their job is to find and place an animal. You will pay a premium and should pay a premium because you're getting a lot of after-sale support. You're getting a lot of after-sale support, or you should be. I have been blessed to work with a few in my day. I tend to go rogue and do like hashtag show mom things and just go look and buy them and whatever. But there are some really good guys and girls out there that are very happy to help you be successful after the sale. So they're probably gonna be more expensive, okay? But also you get more for your money. So, and it's up to you. It's up to you. That's the thing. Like, even back to the uh picture part of it, I do want to make sure you recognize like you have accountability and responsibility as the buyer, okay. If you buy something spur of the moment, based on a picture alone, and you get it and you're not happy. Guess what? Sorry, you should have done your homework, okay? You should have gotten more information or made a connection or gotten out there. Like, it is on you too, and just want to make sure that we're all being honest with ourselves about that, because it's not always on the on the seller side for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

Yeah, well, I uh when I talked to the Willoughby gals, they were very persistent about it, takes like several clicks to bid. So, like, it's not an accident.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:33

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I liked their uh I liked their podcast. They were like, read the comments, read the comments and reach out to the breeder. Like, absolutely know what you're getting into, you know. Like, I feel like it's a little bit uh probably new families, and maybe not just new families. I think it's a little bit like a kid getting an Easter bunny, like a pet rabbit for Easter, and then it's like, oh man, I gotta care for this thing, like until it dies a tragic, slow death to someday. Like, you know, that's the thing. You're you're investing. This is our sport, okay? And I know some people there is like a love-hate relationship with calling it a sport, but especially on the junior side of it, this is how we are raising our children, okay? This is how we are raising the next generation. These people are going to be leading companies, building businesses, involved in politics, whatever it is. This thing that you are buying or selling is a tool that we are using to get that accomplished. So, how you decide to manage that, navigate that, whatever, that is totally on you, but recognize the importance of it as it relates to that next generation. Because I think we forget. We forget, and as adults, like like I said earlier, I have grown-up money now, I can spend it, I can go buy things, but like what I have to always keep myself in check with like, what is that accomplishing? What am I doing? Like, you know, because this is all a lot bigger than just buying and selling animals and doing cool stuff on social media. So right.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:09

Uh, where do you see the show stock industry heading over the say the next five to ten years?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:14

Hmm. Oh well, that's a good question. I don't even know.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:20

In and around it long enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

I mean, like, you've got to have is it just gonna stay the same or well, I do think, okay, this is like a little bit of a Debbie Downer realization, I guess, about the show stock, stock show world. It is getting harder for average people to play, okay? I think that's a reality and a conversation that I have quite a bit, okay? Whether it's the financial input, the time, the energy. Like the last time when I was raising Club Lance, we didn't wrap legs, man. We didn't have to implant with melatonin, we didn't have to attract dog them and do all this stuff. Like, I don't I don't say that to say that it's bad that we're making progress, okay? Because this whole thing is all about progress and trends. And people that are in the business to a large degree are gonna keep pushing that and pushing that and pushing that. Like, so I don't know that I know where that next level is to where we're gonna go from like a trend standpoint or what these things are gonna look like, because that pendulum will continue swinging. That's just how it works in every species. But I think at some point, and I hope that like let's say something as small as a weekly sale report, we'll start some conversations on how we all do it together and not just take advantage and make it transactional. It is very hard, and I can see it. Okay, I'm wired a lot different than a lot of people. I have no problem going up to the biggest guy in the room, being like, hey man, how do you how do you get the leg to look like that? What? I don't have a problem with that. A lot of people do. So, you know, at some point I think that there probably needs to be some hard conversations and a bit of a shift from all the money that it takes to do this and the uh gatekeeping. That's a kind of big reason why I do my platform and why I know I'm sure you do your platform. Families have to be able to, in my opinion, take a modest or moderate budget, find a good animal, do their best with it, and find some piece of success. And if it gets to a point where that doesn't happen, whether that's the politics in the ring, the show teams that do things to a whole nother level, maybe or maybe not very ethically done, and like the rest of us are left standing. I mean, I just there the bubble will break at some point, in my opinion. I don't know when that point is, and I hope that we can mitigate that with some of the right people trying to do it the right way and keep it going because it truly is such a valuable deal. But I do know and I do get a lot of that undercurrent riff of frustration, you know. Like, how am I gonna be successful against, and that's you gotta be realistic. Like, how am I gonna be successful against bigger budgets and bigger connections and bigger resources and bigger this and bigger that? So, you know, you do have to be realistic. I do think it's possible. I mean, our we did not expect, let's go back to cows. Like, we did not expect to win Bluyville two years ago. We just kept doing what we thought we should be doing, and we did it honestly, and we managed her the best we could, and the stars aligned, and she was feeling great and looking good, and the judge loved her and it hit him just right. Like that was our perfect day. I think you can still get those. Understanding that all of this is about a lot more than that will make your journey a lot happier, um, for sure. But I do think there's a sizable amount of frustration, and I hope that at some point the readers, the buyers, the judges, the whoever can all get a little bit more on the same page to where there's not, you know, overflowing frustration constantly. And I don't talk about that a lot because I don't I don't like focusing on that or anything like that, because it does really drain you. And if you just are focusing, it's like driving a car or riding a horse. If you're in a horse, like they say, like look where you want to go. So if you're looking in the rear view or you're looking at negative stuff constantly, like that's where it's gonna keep going. I truly think if we just keep some pro positive momentum going and keep doing things the right way, hopefully we'll kind of mitigate that. But at some point, um, some of some of the demons of the ring will have to get exercised, I think, if people are gonna continue spending what they're spending and doing this instead of just buying a boat and taking a vacation.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:09

Yep, yep. As we start to wrap up here, what do you hope families would focus on more?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:15

Oh gosh, just yeah, that's an awesome question too. Man, you're full of it. I think that focusing on the journey for sure, and I know a lot of people have started to talk about that, which I love, but being realistic about your goals, because I think at the end of the day, if you're not if you're not setting realistic expectations, you will continue to be disappointed, period. Whether that's true in the show ring, in your personal life, in your business life, whatever it is. I mean, being realistic and enjoying the journey and using it as a tool, like truly recognizing, because I it's very easy to get wrapped up in the moment, okay. There have been some heated conversations in this barn, and there probably will continue to be when we're all overtired and things aren't going right and whatever. But when you look at it, it's just a little blip in your life. I mean, you have, we've already started looking at, we have like five years left, and that like makes me a little bit sad because you know, you get down into it and it's like, oh, I gotta wrap these legs again, I gotta do this again, I gotta go tie this heifer up, whatever. But like really try to enjoy those moments, even if it is super stressful, because all of this is a lot bigger than just what banner you get at the end of the day. I and just and I guess the takeaway, if there was one takeaway from the perception point, because we started out talking about that, and I do think some of us are wired to be in tune to that, some of us aren't. But looking at it a different way, just as you sh the way you show up. If you show up a certain way, people will recognize that. Like people are not gonna remember what you do, they'll remember how you make them feel. So really pay attention to the way you show up, and that's how you're gonna build your brand. So that's as easy as I could put in, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:06

Perfect. This has been a really great conversation, and I think one of the biggest takeaways is that while perception and visibility do exist in this industry, they tend to grow naturally out of consistency, effort, and time in the game. For families who are just getting started, the most important thing is still the fundamentals. Learning how to care for the animals, learning how to show them well, and building relationships with people in the industry. Everything else tends to follow. Allison, thanks again for taking the time to share your perspective today. And for those listening, if you found value in this episode, share it with another family that's learning the showstock world right alongside you. That's the whole goal of this podcast helping each other get a little better and understand the game a little more every episode. Thanks for listening to Cheat Codes. We'll see you next time.