#11 You'll be saying "I AM THAT IS" after listening to BIG RASCALS discuss REDWALL!

In Episode 11 of Big Rascals, we discuss our TOP 5 Characters from Fiction Books, Derek's Educational HOT TAKE, and the Book and TV Show REDWALL by Brian Jacques. We also have our Bonus Segment BIG RASCALS WRITING CHALLENGE where we all write short stories about a Woodland Creature Mythical Tale. Check it out on YouTube. There will be SPOILERS!!! So go read the book and watch the show, then make your way back here and give us a listen!

Redwall by Brian Jacques is an epic fantasy novel where a peaceful community of woodland creatures must defend their home, Redwall Abbey, from the ruthless rat warlord Cluny the Scourge. A young, novice mouse named Matthias steps up, embarking on a dangerous quest to find the legendary sword of Martin the Warrior to save his home.

We want Big Rascals to be a community or a "CLUB." So don't hesitate to Subscribe, Like, and leave a Comment or suggestion on what next book you would like us to discuss and we will do out best to accommodate. Find us on Social Media for extra content. We are also looking for Sponsors or Donors. We can be reached at bigrascals.podcast@gmail.com. We are extremely grateful for any and all support! Thank you!

For our next book to read as a club, Derek has decided on "The Odyssey" by Homer.

Keep READING, keep WRITING, and stay RASCALLY!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Welcome to Big Rascals, where we may be grown-ups, but we'll never stop being rascals. We are a boys' book club, not just for the boys, but all those who enjoy reading, writing, comedy, and entertainment. Our purpose is to have fun discovering new worlds, making friends, and finding a cure for dyslexia.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

Yeah. Yeah. Hello, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

How's it going? What's up? Hey boys. Hey boys! Hey boys.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

We're still we're still on that one. Still like that video. It's a good one. Cool.

SPEAKER_07 0:49

Cool.

SPEAKER_06 0:50

Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_07 0:52

Yeah. Yeah. Big Grasswell's pretty cool. We're here. We're we're we're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Okay. We gotta find a wait a segment, guys. Did you guys like the video, the burger review video they posted? Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:07

Was that good? Yeah, that was pretty good. I like the clip. I'm glad you chose the Jurassic Park clip because we all look like we're having so much fun in there. Yeah. Because we actually do. We just have a hard time showing that we're having fun here.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

No, that was good. That was where you were you were uh roasting me. You were making fun of me.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

You're like bah barbecue. Bah barbecue.

SPEAKER_08 1:32

Yeah, that's how Derek has fun. Roasting.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

What? Oh, like you guys do not roast. Oh. Derek, may I say? Did you mute me? Did you just dying over that? I think it's the funniest thing.

SPEAKER_08 1:48

It was funny because I I I totally saw it coming.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Golly.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Derek was known as the bully for the work.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

Oh, get real. Greg was the bully when we worked together.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

In fact, I framed Greg. Well, I didn't even try to frame you. But anytime I did something feed, one of our coworkers, Biba, got mad at Greg for just repeating it. Why do you have to go to Greg? Insane job. I love that guy. Bibba, if you're watching this, I love you, man. Had to be there, huh?

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Oh, yeah. Good stuff. Sweet. Let's get before we get off too big of a tandem here, let's get into it. We're gonna start with our top five, and it's my pick today. I get I picked. I get I picked I picked our top five fictional book characters. So. Does that mean I gotta go first? Sweet. Yeah, go for it. Okay. Yeah, this was definitely a difficult one to narrow it down to five. Um but I will give you only two honorary mentions.

SPEAKER_06 3:22

Remember?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah. That's how we've been in the past episode. Just dang it. Yeah. Sure. Way too broad of a you should have said sci-fi books, fictional books. Or non-fiction.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Just dude, it was way too broad. Yeah, it was very, but I have I have four of them narrowed down. So here's my two honorable mentions. Um Bilbo from The Hobbit. Well done. He's probably my favorite Hobbit, for sure. And then Sirius Black. He's my favorite character from Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_07 4:01

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 4:04

Sirius. Yeah. Yeah. Very poorly missed. Very poorly represented on a film.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Yep. I also like Rocky, Wraith, Hadrian. Okay. I'm getting into my um my top five here. And my number two might change. So we'll see. As things move. Number five is Sevro. So wow, that low. Yeah. Sevro album. There's a lot of there's a couple characters I just absolutely love. Several is amazing. I mean, top five is great.

SPEAKER_07 4:42

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

You know, he's just that loyal character that you just love. So, and that's kind of my theme here, I guess, is loyalty. So, um, Measure from the Alvin Maker series. Good one. He's my number four. And then number three is Big Wig. Ooh, yes! I absolutely love Bigwig.

SPEAKER_08 5:07

He is so cool. Reliable characters, huh?

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Yep, reliable because that the story could not succeed without. Just so cool. Big wick. Big wig. Big wig. Big wig from Watership Down. And then my number two. Oh man. It depends on my mood, I guess. I will either pick Gandalf from Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Or Happy Hunavar. Oh, wow. From The Power of One. Oh yeah. Yeah. Which. Oh man. If you haven't read The Power of One, go to it right now.

SPEAKER_06 5:46

It's our very first episode that we did. We actually might do a revisited episode where we actually have a video clip of it, but that's only if it's in high demand.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Fantastic book and fantastic character. Very, like, not a lot in the book. You know, not a lot of screen time in the book, but his um the moment he is in the book is amazing.

SPEAKER_07 6:09

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

And then my number one is from the Farseer trilogy, The Assassin's Apprentice, Assassin's Quest, and Royal Assassin. And it is Night Eyes.

SPEAKER_07 6:24

Night Eyes.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

And um, yep, that is my all-time favorite character for sure. Nice. So Night Eyes is a wolf. Great characters in that.

SPEAKER_06 6:36

Yeah. Assassin's quest series.

SPEAKER_08 6:41

Oh, it's it's all coming back to me now. Like, I forgot. You're gonna have Grandpa Chuke as one of Grandpa Juke.

SPEAKER_06 6:51

Maybe you could just pick almost any character from the Doc and Hoppy, Grandpa Chuke, Rascue Teen.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

We should have done a top 50. You know, that would have been a little more manageable. Yeah, that would be a podcast on it.

SPEAKER_06 7:07

No, dude, top 50, it's like building a commander deck when you come from standard, you think, oh, I got all the room in the world. But as soon as you get into the hitting ruddy, you're like, this is this is not enough still. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Yep, yep. So yeah, that's mine.

SPEAKER_06 7:23

Who wants to do that? It's a very good list. I can't argue with that list.

SPEAKER_07 7:26

That is great. Sweet. Yep. Um, Derek. Uh I you want do you want to go next?

SPEAKER_06 7:34

I'm good with one hot take. Oh, yeah, I got the hot take, so yeah, I can go next. Wait, we're going to the hot take already.

SPEAKER_07 7:41

Well, no, just so let me mute you.

SPEAKER_08 7:50

No, just so it's not me, Derek Derek. It'd be good. Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

You get what I'm putting down?

SPEAKER_06 7:58

Okay. Yeah. I'm eating what you're cooking. Alright. So my two honorable mentions were Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III from the How to Train Your Dragon series. It is a book series. Um, he's he's a fun character for young readers to have, but that book series is vastly different to the movies. And it it's up to you to whether decide that's it's worse for it or better for it. I still enjoyed those books. My other honorable mention was Big Wig from Watership Down. I absolutely love that rabbit. Just an absolute champion. Absolutely. Number five, Winnie the Pooh. Oh, Winnie the Pooh is Winnie the Pooh. I do have to preface this list with this is not a definitive list. This is just how I feel today. This could change tomorrow. Like with how much love we all have for these characters, like these is no way a definitive, absolute list. But yes, number five, I'm putting, I've decided to put Winnie the Pooh there. Bear of very little brain, but optimistic and just earthy and comfortable. So police. I love Winnie the Pooh and just his friendship with Piglet and Eeyore and all the ones, he just does the best he can to make them happy.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

My daughter currently is calling him Winnie the Poop right now, which is I will never correct that.

SPEAKER_06 9:23

Yeah, exactly. For some reason, I don't know why. My wife always says Weenie the Pooh. Not poo, weenie the poo. Weenie the poo. I'm like, Weenie? Weenie? Well, she's from Washington, so well, her dad even makes fun of her for it. So it's not normal. I'm like, where did you get Weenie? Number four, Happy Hunavad. Oh The Power of One by Bryce Courtenay. He is just the biggest influence on PK, and that book's so good that I my son's nickname is PK. And I hope to be either a doc or Happy Hunavald for my son. And I hope he meets other Happy Hunavads out there to set him on a course for life. He is just a champion of heart and soul, and he is one of those masculine figures. He's like a stand-up boxer. Yeah. You know, obviously he's got that masculine optimism, and he's got that masculine, like just bulky and strong and able to handstand on his own and be adaptable, and yet he shows that it is okay for boys and men to cry. Which I think is such like one of my favorite lines from him is when he pats PK on the back when he's crying, just saying it's sometimes we need a good cry. Oh, I love it.

unknown 10:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Number three teaches big uh PK that small can be big.

SPEAKER_06 10:46

Small can be big. Yep.

unknown 10:48

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:48

And number three, it's a tie between Sevro Al Baca or Pax Al Talamanus. I love Pax, because even though he's only in the first book, I just love the gentle giant trope. The one that can ground you into dust, but is not so gentle. The girl such laughs. Yeah, such a gentle soul at heart. Oh, I love Pax, but Sevro's got way more presence throughout the trilogy. And I can't spoil it, but the finale with Several had me feeling all sorts of things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:27

That's why everyone in uh as he's continuing the series, everyone's like, if you kill Sevro, there will be riots.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

You kill Sevro, we might kill you.

SPEAKER_06 11:39

Pierce Brown, you listening. Alright, and number two, I did try to keep all these characters from different books. Number two is Smaug the Magnificent, the dragon from the Hobbit.

SPEAKER_08 11:53

Gotta have a dragon.

SPEAKER_06 11:54

And as the artist Kip Rasmussen said, he was basically the perfect fairy tale dragon. Just the catalyst for the adventure, the great big obstacle, the seemingly undefeatable arrogance. Yeah, just oh, such a great, I can't say allegory because Tolkien hated allegory, but great metaphor for greed and arrogance and pride. Oh, it's so good. I love Smaug. As you guys can see, you know?

SPEAKER_07 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:23

Work it. So that's my number two. And number one, I know this is totally like not. What's the opposite of abnormal? This is totally normal, totally basic. Just it's Samwise Gamji.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Samwise.

SPEAKER_06 12:40

Just that. He is like the Winnie the Pooh of the Hobbits. He's got that earthy comfortableness that just wants to help Frodo do his mission so that he can be happy. He is selfless and come on. You're telling me you're hearing I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you, and not feeling anything for this hobbit.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Golly. If you're not feeling anything from that, wipe yourself off, man.

unknown 13:05

Because you are dead.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Dare I say the perfect friend? You know what we should all strive to be like as a friend.

SPEAKER_08 13:14

Simple-minded and reliable.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

And love style.

SPEAKER_06 13:19

He's not that simple-minded. He's just loyal. I think this list can change, so like because I want to have Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas Gimli. I want and Bilbo and like so many of Tolkien's characters on there. But the Balrog. I know, right? Just endurance pain. It just makes uh Balrog. Talk about reliability. Alright. Go for it, Jeff.

SPEAKER_08 13:48

Sweet.

SPEAKER_06 13:49

Oh man.

SPEAKER_08 13:50

I I struggle. Yeah. I like too many things, and I would say it's tough because I like so many characters, but it's hard to put like certain characters just like above others. I mean, like you said, Eric, it is very conditional on like the moment and the situation for sure. Um because it it fluctuates for sure. But I all everything you guys said, I put in an honorable mention for sure, just because I mean they are top-tier characters. Um had to be different, huh?

SPEAKER_02 14:23

I'm liking the diversity.

SPEAKER_08 14:25

I'm gonna stick to my list just because uh that's what I put down in the moment. So I'm gonna like I said, you know, it's very conditional and stuff, but and again, no order in these, just because they are all fantastic people. Uh I'm I am gonna go with Doc. I love Doc from Professor Von Bunch Dein. Yeah. Just I mean, what a perfect follow-up character to Hoppy in in um giving PK just such a solid foundation. I think uh, and again, quite the contrast from the the violence and the the the fighting, the boxing with the music, introducing that into PK's life, I think just created a flow for him that you know channeled him to be such a a better person.

SPEAKER_06 15:09

He he was a terrific father figure for PK. Oh yeah, I love Doc and I I think he says some of the most profound things.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah, he does.

SPEAKER_08 15:19

I'm gonna go with Zayvod Biblebrocks from Sea Tiger's Galaxy.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

I mean, yeah. He was only one of your honorable mentions for your aliens, right?

SPEAKER_08 15:30

Was he? I think so. Yeah, I think so, man. Again, I struggle with these lists.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

So Zayphon is is book Zafod is amazing. He's so fun.

SPEAKER_08 15:42

I enjoy the movie, but yeah, the book, he is just so fantastic. And the he has he's very like a Sean Spencer character uh from Psych where he I mean just all kinds of ridiculousness and a kind of unexpected wild humor at times where you're just like, What is going on?

SPEAKER_03 16:02

So fun. What's the drive, like ego drive he goes into the reality drive or something, and you just like normal people, it like ru ruins their minds, but he went in and was perfectly fine because his ego is just so big.

SPEAKER_08 16:22

It ends up breaking the machine. Oh yeah. Uh that series, I can just read it every single year, pick it up and read it again. It's so fun. Uh, Douglas Adams is a genius when it comes to humor. Yeah. Um, and such smart humor, too. Um, such well-written stuff.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Clever British humor.

SPEAKER_08 16:42

Anyone can get it, but it's like it's not, you know, just the hee hee hee funny stuff.

SPEAKER_06 16:49

So so those are your honorable mentions.

SPEAKER_08 16:52

Well, no, those were in the in the house in the top.

SPEAKER_06 16:55

Oh, but you said it was in the alien honorable mentions, that's right.

SPEAKER_08 16:59

Um, and then, oh man, it's so hard. I I'm gonna go. This is so tough because the Deltora book series I absolutely love. Dude, the characters are all just fantastic. The main characters, main trio, Leif Barta and Jasmine. I'm probably gonna go with Leaf just because when I read the series, I was a little kid and just, you know, wanted to be like Leaf going on a grand adventure. Um, fantastic series, and just such a lovable, like uh absorbing or what do you got, like uh self-imposing character where you can put yourself in his shoes and and picture yourself there.

SPEAKER_06 17:36

He was an easily, easy just avatar to put yourself into.

SPEAKER_08 17:40

Oh yeah, exactly. Um and the anime, fantastic too, such a fun one. Um let's see, what am I on? Three? Was that three?

SPEAKER_06 17:51

Yeah, that was three because he had Doc, Zebo, Zayfon. Oh, what's a Zaephon? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 17:57

Um, and then I'll go with Driz Dowden from the the Legends of Drizdawarden, the R.A. Salvatore series. That's like, you know, it's probably like 30 or 40 books. I don't know. He's got a whole bunch of books. But they're the he's he's like one of the main characters in Dungeons and in the Dungeons and Dragons universe. Oh, okay. He shows up in some games, he shows up in board games and the role-playing books.

SPEAKER_06 18:23

Oh, Drizzit, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:25

Yeah, he shows up in Magic of Gallery too.

SPEAKER_08 18:27

I've heard people say Drizzit. I've heard Drizz. The audiobook says Drizzet. Yeah. Yeah. Drizd Ordin, the dark elf from uh the uh gosh, I'm blinking on the the place in Dungeons Track where the Dark Elves are from. But yeah, it's just such a cool BA character. So cool.

SPEAKER_06 18:47

Yeah, it has a pet panther, too, right? Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 18:51

Yeah, yeah. He's it's it's such a fun book series. I I'm really excited to dive into one of those. It's just deciding which one, because there's so many. Um, and then of course, I'm gonna go with uh characters in the Spook's Apprentice. I love them all. They're kind of it's very similar aesthetic to the Assassin's Apprentice uh book series. Um a lot of really intriguing characters, but one of my absolute favorite characters from that series is Alice. She's the girl who wears a black dress, pointy shoes, and she walks with her hips. And she's a witch. So so cool. Such an awesome character.

SPEAKER_06 19:28

Good for you for having a female character on your list. Like yeah, yeah. I gotta commend you for having a way different list than Greg and I.

SPEAKER_08 19:39

Honestly, it's it's just it's just because those are the ones I could think of that I also designed by like animals. Everything you guys said is is too on the list. Yeah, I mean, great characters. I that's just the great part about reading is just finding so many characters to enjoy. So yeah, yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Oh yeah. Good list, fellas. Yeah. That one's still and I would say most of ours are secondary characters, too. They're not really main characters. Yep. Which we've talked about that a bunch. That you know, a lot of times the characters you fall in love with are the secondary characters.

SPEAKER_06 20:17

Although you had Leaf on yours, which is the main character, and I gave honorable mention to pick up who is the main character. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 20:24

I'm surprised you didn't pick up his main character.

SPEAKER_06 20:27

In the book, he is not as charming. He is not a charming little night fury that acts like a cat. No. Yeah, he is very sassy and kind of whiny, and as funny as it is, it can be really annoying sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Alright. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so Derek. Yeah, are you ready for this hot take? Derek had to warn us that he might offend. He might we might not be friends.

SPEAKER_06 20:57

I'm probably gonna ruffle some feathers. And let me preface this with I have a foot in both camps here, so I am not saying if you pick one side or the other, you are more or less of a person with it. And I have to word this hot take very carefully, especially on the internet. You guys are gonna run with this.

SPEAKER_08 21:18

Always. They'll hear the first bit.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

My hot take is listening to the audiobook is not the same as reading the book.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Oh, alright.

SPEAKER_06 21:29

That's not as bad as I thought. Okay. Reason for that being each one has its own benefits, but you are leaving cognitive benefits on the table by not reading the book. Me personally, I remember more with the book, but at the same time, I listen to the audiobook to, you know, see if I can pronounce the names correctly to and see if their the narrator enhances it for me, like Project Hail Mary did, for sure. And the power of one Humphrey Bauer made that book. Ten times better after of me reading it.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:04

That's great. Yeah. I'm not saying if you you're cheating if you listen to the audiobook, because you're not. I'm happy if you listen to the audiobook or read the book, we're still talking about the same story. We're still connecting on the same things. But with the fact that illiteracy is raising in this country, I still think we need to raise the incentive to read the book over taking the convenient audiobook. Alright. Tear me to pieces, guys.

SPEAKER_08 22:33

Now I will say I don't have the statistics in front of me. And you know, uh, but I I am pretty sure I've heard that they they did some studies and they did find that reading the audiobook had almost the same benefits, or or listening to the audiobook had almost the same benefits as reading the book itself. Um I'll have to verify that for sure, and then we maybe could post like a link or something if I find the source. But so I I do think it's kind of one of those things where um you have a lot of those influences on online who are pushing back against some of the kind of like uh the health food trends that people are are doing, all these things. Like you have the Costco people that go and like don't eat this because it has blah blah blah blah blah, it has polyethylene or cargain, and and then they're the people who are pushing back are like, you know, you know, don't not eat strawberries because they have pesticides on them. You know, most Americans aren't getting the right amount of fruit they're eating. So just eat strawberries. You know, it it doesn't the pesticides aren't gonna kill you, but not.

SPEAKER_06 23:36

Who's thinking Costco is going to be that's like one of the safest places? Who's thinking that Costco is killing people?

SPEAKER_08 23:43

There's all kinds of weird influences out there, but it's like you're gonna die from not eating fruit, you're not gonna die from the minuscule amount of pesticide that's still left over on the fruit, kind of like the whole aspartane thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's the same thing for reading, you know. If there's so many Americans out there who even aren't even listening to books, and it in my mindset, I was saying, you know, if you're never gonna pick up a book, at least pick up an audiobook. At least do that. That's something, and it still has most of the same benefits. So I I do agree with you, Derek, though, that there is a benefit and a and there is a certain aesthetic to actually picking up a paper book. They've even shown studies that having books on shelves in your house has a benefit. And people who have books on shelves, even if they've never like fully read those books, they perform better on tests. And again, I don't have the statistics with me, but maybe I can find them, hopefully. But if I'm wrong, you got me.

SPEAKER_06 24:46

Well, I guess I'll offer a little more push since I'm the hot taker. I gotta, you know, just plant my feet in the ground. You're not gonna die on this hill.

unknown 24:54

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 24:55

I have to give at least a semblance I'm gonna die on this hill. So I gotta at least show that, or present some information that the reading is better. A, a lot of the self-help books I've read, a lot of the like my mission president, who's a very successful Philip Stoker. If you're watching this, you were awesome. Thank you for teaching us that successful people read every day. I think Charlie Kirk said the same thing, or he would just say he he reads more and more books every year. Um I would say that reading it's it's not a natural thing that comes to humans, it's something that allows us to transcend beyond our human nature because you know, reading, writing, it's not something we were born to be able to listen. With an audiobook, we learn to listen. Like my kid is learning to listen, my toddler is getting better at listening, some days uh he's getting better at listening, and it's all coming natural, it's instinctual. Whereas reading and writing is something that is beautiful, that came from someone fighting against instinct and the natural man. And I think it's beautiful that way. And once again, with illiteracy rising up, I think that is our best fight against you know, brain rot, the powers that be, the one that want to keep us uneducated. We need to be reading. At least, you know, some let's and it's better for your sleep as well. You read about I don't know what the statistics were like. If you read 30 pages a day, you sleep better, or if you read like 10 pages before bed, your mind is a lot more calm. But at the same time, if you're listening to audiobooks, you are still a great enjoyer of fiction, great writing, and what like I'm not saying you cheated because if I took a bicycle to a location and you took a car, we still got to the same destination.

SPEAKER_08 26:47

Those bicyclists, bicyclists, they're just they're so arrogant.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Do you have anything to clap back on, Greg? No, honestly, Derek, I think I agree with you on this one. Um I thought I was gonna rumble some feathers and we'll yell at each other, man. I will defend audiobooks with my life, though, because of the benefits that it's brought me. But the benefits, I reaped those benefits because I was following along in the book at the time. You know, that's what helped me overcome my dyslexia. Yeah, I feel like I would open a book more if it was just more convenient.

SPEAKER_06 27:29

It is just not convenient, especially in adult life, hence why I'm still a subscriber to audiobooks, you know. Like for these books, I'm always doing the audiobook first, but I try to read them as well.

SPEAKER_07 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:42

But in order to get to our time frame, it's so nice to have an audiobook for the drives I do.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Yeah, like I can I can knock out multiple books a month, listen to it on my drives or at work. You know, if I had a and in some ways to contain more, at least for yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:00

Yeah, that's all kind of like it's it's a different for each person. It's like a fingerprint. Like some people have way better listening skills than cognitive comprehension, whereas it's the opposite of way, you know. So like I get it, it's all kind of a very muddled person-by-person basis kind of thing. Um but at the same time, I'm not gonna say that it's the same thing, there are differences and benefits that you're given up.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah, there I totally agree. Like, as far as my reading skill, it has significantly gone down since I've kind of stopped reading hard copies. Um but you know, I don't feel like my comprehension has gone down at all. If anything, it's gone up. And so, yeah, I agree. There are benefits, uh, but audiobooks for sure have their place because just it's better, I would say, to read more in this case than to read less, but maybe a higher quality experience. So that's me. I would I would love to be able to sit down and read through books. Just crank out books, but oh yeah, that's just not reality for me, for sure.

SPEAKER_06 29:17

Yeah, my wife is the one who can crank out reading books because I I can't read so fast. It's those Sarah J. Jobs fans, man, those smut readers who just could just read 50 words a second and understand everything so fast.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Yeah, I'll come across the word that I'm like I thought I knew that's how if you had a dream, you you dream you you could you you would get I'll get held up on like a simple word like Wednesday that I just forgot. Oh, there's a D in Wednesday.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Wednesday talking about whenever I know Wednesday, I'm always like Wednesday.

unknown 30:02

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Or probably probably probably. Yeah. So I agree with you to the core of like your argument for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

We need to figure out that makes us like at each other's throats.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Well, I got the hot take next week, and I do feel like uh I might get you on this one, Derek. Oh, really? We'll see. Oh okay, cool. But yeah, I think I'd say that's a that's a good hot take. Let's see how the other thing is. I didn't think it was as spicy as you were.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

It's gonna be so spicy.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Oh, yeah. I think everybody deep down knows that like actually opening a book is kind of more beneficial than just listening to it.

SPEAKER_08 30:46

It's like eating fruit versus fruit snacks. Sure, you're getting your vitamins and minerals, but I mean it's fruit.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

No, I would say it's like eating fruit and then drinking fruit juice.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Fruit juice. Well, so are fruit snacks.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Well, anyways. We're certainly not one arguing about health. So yeah, no.

SPEAKER_08 31:15

We talk about this is coconut water.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

It's got some healthy properties in it. You got coconut water, I got Dr. Pepper over here. So it's I got water. The healthiest drink. Oh, here's a Kickstarter. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

All right, excuse me. Okay, well, I say let's move on. Yeah, I said spoiler-free. Yes, spoiler-free. Um, non-spoiler section. So I really don't Red Ball is one that's been around for so long. It's kind of like the Princess Bride. It's like if if you haven't experienced it yet, then you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 32:04

Honestly, it wouldn't really spoil there. Really isn't too much to spoil in the book other than the little maybe m moments you couldn't you wouldn't be expecting. That could could be a fun surprise. But besides that, it's pretty, it's a pretty routine hero story.

SPEAKER_06 32:18

It's very, yeah, cookie-cutter, uh, classic myth, spirit of the hero taking form in a new in a new person, and you know, kind of Arthurian legend in a way. Um but yeah, this this was my first time ever experiencing the book and some of the books. Because after I read this, I went to my library, I saw what they had from Brian Jakes. So I read Martin the Warrior and Salamandastron. They did not have Matt Tameo. I was looking for Matt Tomeo because you top that up so much. Oh, yeah. But at least now I have a better understanding of you know, more in lore, in universe lore, and Brian Jakes's um writing style, which um he he's it's really great for young readers.

SPEAKER_08 33:02

Yeah, yeah. I I guess I could give a summary, let me give you a little background. Brian, it's I I always said jackz just because of the way, but it was I guess it's Brian Jakes like cakes, is how he says it. For goodness sakes. For goodness sakes, and he he's a pretty cool guy in sense he basically lived quite the life going around doing all kinds of odd jobs, uh going like working on boats and all kinds of strange places, and then he just started telling stories in libraries to kids, and it was basically the stories of Redwall. He'd just make up all these random stories about animals, and then somebody one day was like, Where are gonna get your book? And he's like, I don't have a book, and I guess I can write one. And so he wrote Red Wall, and then he wrote like a whole slew of different books. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_06 33:53

I believe it's 22 books in the Red Wall universe. I looked it up because I was thinking, hmm, if it's like six or seven books, I might be able to crank all those via audiobook before all this. But I saw 22, I'm like, oh no. So I'm just gonna get my hands on what I can get from the library and hope for the best. I'm glad they have Martin the Warrior. Great backstory for this, just enhance the experience. And Salamandestron was just awesome. That was that was way, way cooler than I thought it was gonna be.

SPEAKER_08 34:25

It's definitely on the list to read read them all because uh they he's got a really good writing style. Yeah. And um they oh gosh, I lost my drain of that. But yeah, great stuff. I I think oh yeah, I'm gonna say they're all self-contained.

SPEAKER_06 34:41

Uh I don't think there's any that's why I wasn't worried about like the order when I grabbed whatever I got.

SPEAKER_08 34:46

You can pretty much pick up whatever. Redwall is technically the first first one he written wrote, and I think it is worth starting there, but we'll get into that. Um, all right, Redwall by Brian Jakes is the first of a series of stories surrounding small anthropomorphic woodland creatures put in medieval heroic situations. Redwall is a large castle abbey with within Mossflower Wood, where a peaceful group of mice and other woodland creatures are celebrating the beginning of summer, and unbeknownst to them, a danger approaches. Clooney the Scourge, an evil rat warlord bent on conquest and destruction. Will Mouse Matthias, a novice at Redwall, step up and defeat Clooney by finding the legendary legendary sword of Martin?

SPEAKER_06 35:32

Yeah. Okay, yeah. You weren't copying on the back of the book. Good job.

SPEAKER_08 35:37

That was actually all me. So I'm proud, I'm proud of it. Nice.

unknown 35:40

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Oh, that sucked.

SPEAKER_08 35:44

I appreciate any feedback.

SPEAKER_06 35:47

Save your uh that sucks for what we do our writing segment.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Oh no, that's that's great. Red wall, man. I tell you what, this brought back so much nostalgia for me. Doesn't it? I the second I started listening to it, it for some reason transported me to my time playing Diablo 2. I think what triggered it was um where it talks about how Clooney lost his eye to a pike. And I I was thinking the weapon pike. But I'm like, Pike, Diablo 2, Diablo 2 growing up. Oh man, it just like a flood of memories. Diablo 2 just overwhelmed me in the moment. And you know, like this book is one of the first that I've read. And you know, I I wouldn't say that I I watched all the series, but at any time it was on as a kid, I would sit down and enjoy it. Oh, yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_08 36:59

It was one of those PBS shows that would just pop up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:03

Yeah, Treehouse Productions. See, I have very I had like no nostalgia for this whatsoever. I never read the books, never even touched them. The TV show, I feel like, got so shafted with the time slot it was given. It was like at 5 or 5.30. That's when my family was having dinner. I was not watching TV then. No. And if my dad was getting home late, yeah, I may have glanced it, and at some points I was like, I saw Basil talking, I was like, this is a baby show. But then I remember getting on the episode where there is Ashmadeus is later, I'm like, whoa, this show's actually kind of cool. But other than that, I had very mixed feelings about it, and I did not care to like dive into it at all. So this was an absolute treat for me. Sweet. And I would dare say that I guess my opinions about this book are better than your guys' because I am not fueled by nostalgia.

unknown 37:57

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 37:59

Oh, it is. So, dear listener, if you want a good opinion of this book, don't listen to Gregor Jeff. Listen to Derek. But we'll probably still have all the same opinions, I feel.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Don't listen to me regardless.

SPEAKER_06 38:17

Yeah, Derek from Big Rascals won't steer you wrong. No, dear viewer. No.

SPEAKER_08 38:23

I think we were able to watch it, and it's funny. Our mom mentioned how she's like, you gotta we'll see how we mention her in the show, because she's like, you always say good things about me, but we were probably able to watch it because we were always eating dinner at nine o'clock. So holy moly! Yeah, it was like I mean, it would be just be like nighttime, the sun would be setting, and our mom would be like, get in here, it's dinner time.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

We're like, What? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

In our mom's defense, she is a very busy woman, I think by choice, but regardless. We didn't know any different, I'd say.

SPEAKER_08 39:03

When I went on my mission, we're eating dinner at five. I was like, nine o'clock would hit, and I'm like, I'm hungry. What's going on?

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Really, it's like second dinner because we get home from school and have first dinner and then nine o'clock, second dinner. Five o'clock? This is lunch. Oh yeah. Yeah, I eat dinner at like six now.

SPEAKER_06 39:28

Yeah, five o'clock will be different, dinner, and your nine o'clock will be supper. As the hobbits would say.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Supper. Yeah, supper. Except we didn't have really any first or second breakfast.

SPEAKER_07 39:40

That's too bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:44

But uh first impressions, I would say I was absolutely delighted with um just the way Brian Jakes, he yes, he makes it very clear it's for kids, but he never talks down to these kids. He is willing to let them be in a mature space for like even up, like even for a sentence or two. And then he's like back to like happy, go lucky, go luckiness. Like he is willing to expose kids to the darker nature of these myths in small fragments.

SPEAKER_08 40:15

It's Don Blut-esque, very dark. You know, you have the very first scene where um I can't remember which rat it is, it was maybe cheese, not cheese. Skullface? Skullface, uh yeah, skullface, and Clooney throws him on the back of a horse, and I mean, very beginning, so it's not spoiling too much, but basically falls off the horse and gets trampled by the car, and he's describing the whole scene, and then Clooney's Tell the devil in hell that Clooney sent you.

SPEAKER_06 40:44

It's like, oh geez, like the dialogue can be raw and just dark, but it's always from the villains, so it's like Brian Jakes's way of saying, Yeah, if someone's talking like this, they're pretty bad. Exactly. Like good people, good-natured people don't usually talk like this.

SPEAKER_08 41:03

Yeah, this is a great mature book for kids.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Yeah, yeah, it does not hold back on the violence at all either. It reminded me of the Hobbit in a lot of ways. Of like, it is, I would read this to my child, but at the same time, I can thoroughly enjoy it as an adult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:24

So well, I guess I had this on the outline, but since you mentioned the Hobbit, I had it down low with our our discussion, but this is a great segue. The red wall, Redwall itself, along with the other books I've read, but we'll say Red Wall itself, I feel like I there's this great video on YouTube by Factor Fiction, that YouTube channel Factor Fiction, that says Winnie the Pooh is Lord of the Rings for toddlers. I would like to argue that Redwall is Lord of the Rings for young ladies. Like you want to get them into Tolkien, start with Winnie the Pooh, and then Red Wall is a great stepping sword because the world building is pretty high-minded for a young reader's. Like there are different dialects. Yes, they're simple, so the kids aren't getting lost, but yeah, you know, whenever a mole is talking, or a hare, because the other hare is in like Salamandastron, they're talking all like Basil, and the sparrows and the shoots, you all know that this is coming from a different like nationality. And that I think is like some very cool deep world building for young readers to, and it just makes the world feel so immersive. Like in Redwell, you are not leaving more than Moss, you have the Abbey, Moss Flower, a quarry, and a churchyard. Not very big. Yeah. And yet it feels so expansive with how much care Brian Jags put in with all the different races, all their different dialects, and their customs. Yeah. Which I'm like, okay, this is a great world building to teach kids what good world build to teach kids what good world building is. Yeah. Sorry. And it will get them to love the high fantasy that is Tolkien, Brandon Sanderson. See it, you could argue C.S. Lewis isn't as high, but I think he's still pretty high fantasy. And other books of the like.

SPEAKER_08 43:16

Yeah. I I was gonna say this was my Hobbit growing up. Uh I I didn't read The Hobbit when I was little, but I read this and it yeah, it propelled me into enjoying and and loving fantasy um and getting into these these kind of stories and books.

SPEAKER_06 43:31

Um and I think you're not the only one. Like when we released our video on us announcing that we do a Red Wall, we had a lot of good uh fan reaction to that, which the Red Bull fans, man, you guys are good people. You said a lot of good things. Oh, yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Yeah, um I did grow up reading The Hobbit, so I have that. But I totally agree, Derek. Like it's it is a great. Great stepping stone to high fantasy for sure. I would say it's like if you say Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Poop is the first step. Um I would say this is more like the third step. There's I wonder if there's something there might be an in-betweener.

SPEAKER_06 44:18

An in-betweener. Yeah, an in-betweener. But then like I can't I haven't found it yet, but I really feel like it's just if you're going Winnie the Pooh and then and then Redwall, all of Brian Jakes's works, the Hobbit, and then and then Lord of the Rings, like you are set up so well. I think that's great.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah, for sure. I had a thought. I'm curious to think, or curious to see what you guys think. Um I think this would be an amazing movie, but not animals. Live action humans.

SPEAKER_06 44:53

Yeah, if you replace all the characters with humans, you could you can make a pretty good movie out of it.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Yeah, I feel like I love like the different creatures that he uses.

SPEAKER_08 45:03

And you could even have, yes, and we'll get into that, some of the bigger creatures be like mythical monsters.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Yeah, exactly. I think that would be kind of I would I think it would just flow. There would be no like issue with it.

SPEAKER_08 45:15

And that that's honestly Brian Jakes has said that he built the world to be that way. It's not meant to be these mice are in a in a human world living in these human as like as as woodland creatures in this environment. They're just they're in their world. This is their world.

SPEAKER_06 45:33

You say that, which raises a question I had when I first read this. It also you mentioned Clooney getting Skullface getting killed with the horse car. And the horse is there's so we established there's meant to be a horse. It's a full-size horse because the rat is thrown onto the back and it's so small that it just has to bite it to get the horse to go. So we established there's horses in this world and there's a cart attached to it, and it's a full-size horse.

SPEAKER_08 46:00

With a full-size cart.

SPEAKER_06 46:03

If not a human.

SPEAKER_08 46:05

Well, it's like uh yeah, it's like the I was so curious.

SPEAKER_06 46:08

I'm like, wait, are there humans in this world just building carts and rats are taking over them? And how are these humans not noticing an abbey, a little castle with rats?

SPEAKER_08 46:19

There's so many words and phrases they used to.

SPEAKER_06 46:22

So I'm like, what how did the cart come to be? Like, I spent way too much time thinking about this. I don't think I'm supposed to. Yeah. But I was like, are there humans here? Like, where are the humans? Beard though. What is happening?

SPEAKER_08 46:39

Is the horse a wild beast or is the horse like the rats and the mice? Is it sentient?

SPEAKER_02 46:45

I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 46:46

Okay, what do they mean?

SPEAKER_02 46:49

What are the rules, man?

SPEAKER_03 46:52

But yeah, I I don't know. I I he describes the abbey as being like pretty massive. Like if they fell off it, they would die. You know, and then Clooney fell from the tree. And the trees are big enough. Spoiler. I won't get into it. But anyway. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:15

I'll get into it. It is a it's an intriguing world, but it goes it really, he genius, and in and again, it could just be he didn't touch on it, but that's such a wonderful aspect of his writing, is it it makes you wonder, and not everything is explained. You know, yeah, what about the horse and the car? How on earth did even that situation happen where Claude is in the horse with the butt with the car? You know, I don't think you're supposed to think about it too much. Yeah, it but it it allows you to. It doesn't explain it, doesn't explain it away. There isn't a it doesn't break the world, you know. It there could be an explanation for the world. It's open to your imagination, your interpretation. Leave your imagination to to flow and build this world kind of in your own way. Um, but yeah, just fantastic way of writing. I did want to ask you guys, what do you think would be better to start with? As like, you know, think thinking of a young audience. Would it be better for them to start with the show? Because I think that's where I started with was with the show.

SPEAKER_06 48:14

I would say the show because if you read the book, I w watching the show after reading the book, I was kind of mad with how the excuse like with the sparrows. It doesn't really show Warbeak getting a friendship with Metal. Like, I felt like Warbeak's intentions flipped on a dime just because they're like, oh, it happens in the book, so we and we gotta make this episode. Like, it sped through so much in the show. And I was like, dude, slow down.

SPEAKER_08 48:41

The show is very adolescent compared to the book.

SPEAKER_06 48:45

Yes, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_08 48:47

It's such an it's so much easier to start earlier in the show. My daughter loved the show, and she's two and a half, so she absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_06 48:55

Yeah, my three-year-old boy, before we even I left for here, he was saying, I want to watch Redwall. Yeah, because he saw my books and he was like, Exactly, want to watch Redwall. I was like, Ooh, we can watch more later, bud. Sorry, I gotta go. Cats in the cradle in the silver spoon, doing the ball with the man on the moon.

SPEAKER_08 49:17

Yeah, what do you think, Greg?

SPEAKER_03 49:18

You think is it better to start with the show? Yeah, you know, I think it's it's probably personality-based for sure. If if you have a mature child, I think get them going on the book. You know, don't waste your time with the show if they're mature enough.

SPEAKER_06 49:34

Well, there's still some mature parts in the show. Yeah, for sure. You have the screen going black and you're hearing flesh and bone crunching multiple times. And they say damn in the second episode. Which which basle which happens in the book too. But at the same time, very odd uh happenstance here. Redwall, a show about mice, features a swear word, damn, in its second episode, a show made for children. Don Balut's The Secret of Nib, another story about mice and rats.

SPEAKER_05 50:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 50:14

It says damn it in it. What are the odds that these two kids' movies with with children in mind are dropping curse words for no reason? Are you trying to get a response out of me there, Greg? Or am I going too loud? No, no, you're good.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

I'm just making micro adjustments.

SPEAKER_07 50:33

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 50:35

Make it sound bitter.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Sorry. It was just sounding really echoey.

SPEAKER_08 50:41

It is interesting that I mean a lot of those I think are around all around the same time, right? Yeah. Secret and M, um, Redwall. What was the third other one you mentioned? Oh, you mentioned those two. Oh, this is just those two. Yeah. Again, Secret and M. Get that is one that is that'll be that would be a really interesting one because the movie is vastly different from the book.

SPEAKER_06 51:06

Oh, yeah. I read that book in preparation for this too, because my library just had it. It's a very short book. Yeah. And we wanted to have the discussion of why mice as heroes, which we'll get into later. And um, yeah, like that we we can we can digress on that, but yeah, that movie did not understand why people liked that book so much, like not at all. Yeah, still enjoyed the movie.

SPEAKER_08 51:28

I I I did, but um yeah, very different from the book in its message and and what it's trying to portray. But yeah, it's gets it gets intense. Crazy stuff. Yeah, I I think um what did you guys think of the writing style? Where um honestly, this was a very mature part of the book for me, where and I I I remember telling you guys how a book that jumps around so much to a bunch of different characters I wasn't very fond of. But then looking at this one and thinking of how early I read it in my life and how much I did enjoy it, how what did you guys think about how often Brian Jakes jumped around to different characters?

SPEAKER_06 52:13

I'll have you go first. I've been jumping in to go first way too much. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

No, I I think he did it so well that it was like almost unnoticeable.

SPEAKER_05 52:22

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Like I think Jakes is just so talented in that aspect of it. Um yeah, like I I think the way he did it is just so like smooth, it's not choppy. Like I feel like normally you get with character jumps like that. So that's kind of what I thought.

SPEAKER_06 52:46

Yeah, I would say those character jumps did not affect it being a linear story at all. Um, and it did help make the world a lot more vast, which I really love because you know when the main character is doing something, you know that antagonist is doing something, but also character C is also doing something. It's just it's very immersive. Like, for instance, when Matthias is off searching for Asmodeus, Constance is building a crossbow to just snipe out. Spoiler! Spoiler.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

I'm sorry. We'll get into those for sure.

SPEAKER_08 53:26

Yeah, she she's building a crossbow, and you have and you have Clooney just making multiple plans, the tunneling, the siege tower, the And crazy, all in the same chapter and in usually the same scene, which breaks a lot of writing rules, but I mean the fact you can follow it is just shows his gene or yeah, his his ability to write. Yeah, so what so good.

SPEAKER_06 53:50

I feel like it was the way the the the perspectives shifted. It flowed so smooth, it's like I was going up a flight of stairs. Like I didn't feel like I was tripping over steps or skipping up. It just felt so natural.

SPEAKER_08 54:04

That's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_06 54:05

The best use of him switching perspectives, in my opinion, was Asmodeus and how he just weaved him in here, there, just like a slithering adder would be. Slithering. Oh my gosh, I loved it every time. Just pop in there for a quick second and then he was gone. And oh we'll we'll talk more about Asmodeus. And yeah, he was my favorite part of the of the story for obvious reasons.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 54:37

So good. Well, I I think that's all I have for this non-spoiler in this. You guys want to add anything else?

SPEAKER_06 54:42

Um, you did have in here, like, what is who is this book for? We kind of establish it's for young readers, which we're kind of gonna be rating it as such. Like, you're if you're looking for this great complex narrative, like Brandon Sanderson level, you're you're not gonna find it. You're you're gonna probably be bored. But this, if you have children you want to get into reading, this is a great series for them to love fantasy.

SPEAKER_07 55:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:07

And we just talked about the writing style, the jumping around. Yeah, I think we're ready to move on to the non-spoiler.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

Yeah, sounds good to me. Yeah, so yeah, let's take a little break and we'll go, we'll come back. Sounds good. All right, welcome back.

SPEAKER_06 55:26

Yep, we got all limbered up. Yeah. We stretched, we peed.

SPEAKER_03 55:30

Yeah, hydrated. Yeah, we are getting into the needy greedy spoiler section. Spoilers from here on it. So you've been warned. There were no spoilers before this. Yep, there were some.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

My bad. That's all we need.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

There was some, yeah. My bad. But yeah, well, I did spoil a little with a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 55:56

Ah, but that's not like help bake finale or gigantic plot boy. Yeah. It's a little bit of a plot point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 56:07

Yeah. Um, but yeah, Red Wall, a great just kind of Arthurian legend with woodland creatures, you know, the classic myth of the spirit of the warrior being carried on and having that mantle put on a new champion. Um, like maybe reckless or novice or clumsy character who needs to step in and to fill those higher shoes. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 56:34

Set in better ways.

SPEAKER_06 56:35

Which I guess we should start with that character, which is Matthias.

SPEAKER_08 56:38

I am that is.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

One thing I absolutely loved is the the little detail that Jake's put in there with the flip-flop and sandals, and how it he kind of I think he did reference to it like three times. And then like as Matthias is growing and progressing, yeah, he stopped referring to that. Oh, yeah, I was no longer flip-flop.

SPEAKER_08 57:05

I was so grew into him. The movie or the show does that a complete disservice because the abbot straight up in like the first episode, Matthias, here's some bigger sandals. But in the book, it it's meant to illustrate, yeah, him growing into that position rather than you know having to get new sandals.

SPEAKER_06 57:23

I guess mentioning the show, the first episode, what did you guys think of the show making Clooney the reason Matthias was an orphan? Which is that true in the deep lore of things? I don't think so. Because in this book, it doesn't show that he has any connection to Clooney.

SPEAKER_08 57:37

I think in the show, which is interesting with the book, they they stray away from a lot of magic and myth besides Martin's like prophecy. In the show, it's it's very built into it. Like even Squire Ginger Vere, he doesn't say the full quote. He literally there's a part in the where in the show where he he just says, Maybe the sword is magic, but he doesn't finish the quote like that. And so they I think in the the show they build so much on the magic that they wanted there to be a bigger reason for Matthias to be involved in this rather than oh, you know, Clooney's attacking Red Wall. It's it's oh he's got a history, he's got a history with him.

SPEAKER_06 58:16

Yeah, which I feel I don't know. After reading this, I felt like, oh, these are the writers trying to pull all the strings to make the viewers way more invested.

SPEAKER_08 58:27

But you know, plus with all the stuff showing up in the tapestry in the in the show, they really wanted to have that visual kind of built in there. So I think it it is a it's a yeah, show technique to kind of build build some things into it that weren't quite in the book.

SPEAKER_06 58:43

Yeah, I guess it has a more emotional drive for the main character to conquer the antagonist.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Yeah, and I noticed they really like they kind of just make Matthias the hero for every situation, which in the Matthias or Cornflower, yeah. Yeah, they can't there's a lot of like MVP characters, which I want to talk about later. Oh yeah. Um besides Matthias. I mean, Matthias is the main character, he's the protagonist. And um, yeah, he's a great character for sure, but as far as main do love the secondary characters in this book, which yeah, that seems to be our like go-to cup of tea of the three of us.

SPEAKER_06 59:29

The side characters are just the real meat, and the the main character seems to be potatoes. But as far as main characters grow, Matthias is a very good one. Like he's not one that just doesn't learn. He he learns, he grows. You can see you can pinpoint where he starts progressing and starts becoming more of a leader, which is what you want to see in a protagonist, if you if you guys would agree or disagree.

SPEAKER_08 59:56

It it is interesting with um what you're saying, Greg, about putting Matthias into every heroic situation in in the show because it kind of takes away from some of the side characters, even though you know a lot of the reason I love the side characters is because of how they were portrayed in the show. They were portrayed pretty well. But uh I came across this interesting uh thing when I was listening to some reviews on Seinfeld. I probably don't have any Futurama references, but uh I'm gonna reference Seinfeld here, where they they actually did something unique in Seinfeld where they had some episodes that weren't focused on Jerry, they were focused on Kramer or they're focused on George or Elaine. And that was pretty new because Hollywood really they want the protagonist in every show. They want protagonists in every single scene, and that really shows with Redwall, the Redwall show where Matthias he is like there's all there is some moments where in the book Matthias is long gone, he's off somewhere doing something in the show. It's like, oh, he does that real quick and he's back and he's helping with the thing. He goes to doing another thing and he's back real quick helping with the thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:03

But yeah, he's bouncing back and forth everywhere in possible hour, and I I hated that. Yeah, now that I've read the book, I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, they gave they gave Matthias the Yukimoto treatment, had to had to be the hero for no one else can do the most heroic thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:24

Yeah, that's a good comparison.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

One of my favorite parts in the book, though, and I think this really showed Matthias's true character, is um it's after the tapestry of Martin gets stolen, and the abbot is kind of just up in arms and like totally doom and gloom, and he's just complaining, saying, kind of chewing out everybody that was on guard posts and stuff. And then Matthias is like, oh, you know, uh Mr. Farm Mouse, he's he's doing better. Mr. Field Mouse. Yeah, Mr. Field Mouse. Uh cornflower. Some good news here, and then the habit's like, Oh, yeah, I I probably need to be a little more popular here.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:11

Oh yeah. That I the book, uh, it's just so good on the dialogue and the interactions around the characters, which is missed a lot from the show. Cause I uh yeah, there's so many interactions I think that are lost because of just the fact of trying to force Matthias into everything that certain characters don't get kind of a chance to shine. But yeah, the uh and talking about the other character, Father Abbott, what did you guys think about or Abbott uh Mortimer? Yeah, Abbott Mortimer. Yeah, what did you think of his difference between the show and the book?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:48

Yeah, I believe in the show he is a lot more Imovable on his stance of pacifism. Oh yeah, almost like to a attacking point on anyone who does anything different, right? And it's like a huge hindrance for the Abbey, which makes which makes other characters in the Abbey just kind of go against his will. Whereas in the book, does if I remember right, he doesn't like it, but he sees it as a necessity. Yeah. And he kind of like says Matthias's defense. Yeah, he's like, Matthias Constance, you are the ones in charge of this. I don't like it, but I know it has to happen. Like he's sensible. He's a lot more sensible.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:26

Always irked me in the show. Even when I was young, I remember being like, Come on, man, you're you're getting attacked. I mean, yeah, peace is wonderful and all, but you're dealing with Callooney here.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:39

Yep. Yeah, you can't, yeah, you can't just say you can't fight. Yeah, pacifism. Yeah, it's not the greatest stance in everything.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:48

Which is what a lot of these myths and just heroic tales kind of entail that you you need to take a stand. It's like a responsibility. You you can't just take uh bullying, I guess you could say, to put it very simply. Like you don't let bullies win. You have to stand up to defend the weak, and if you have the power to stand up to the bully, you have a responsibility to defend those who don't, kind of thing. So, and I believe Star Wars The Clone Wars has a great episode dealing with you know the ideals of pacifism and fighting when you have to. Of course, it's Clone Wars. Oh, yeah. Obi-Wan and Duchess Sateen, like I love, I loved that show. That was such a great show.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:33

So good. That is awesome. Uh, one of the interactions between Matthias and the Abbott in the between the show and the book that really contrasts is in the show when Shadow comes to still the tapestry, which again, uh such a wild choice to just have him killed in in the very beginning. Because I I fully expected this character to be around the entire time, but no, it's so savage of Clooney too to just let him die.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:59

Yeah, that's kind of that's what I thought of is it I think it was a great way to show how much of a psychopath Clooney actually is. That he does not care about anybody but himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:14

But in the in the show it or in the book, it's it's Constance that bats uh or hits Shadow over the wall and after he stabs Cornflower's father, which again you're you're reading that and you're like, what? Yeah, this is a children's book, by the way. In the show, it's just like uh Matthias like trips with him and and Shadow falls over the wall, and then the father abbot is like comes to Matthias and starts like roasting him and and drilling into him. You killed this person. It's like, geez, Father Abbott, it was an accident. One, yeah, two, Matthias was defending. Come on.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:51

Yeah, this is a kid, too. Like, don't give him the responsibility of killing someone. That's uh a great way to sentence them to lifelong.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:01

It was definitely better that Constance, you know, had the initial like because with Matthias being so early in the book, it's better that he builds up to being that warrior that has to kill something in the end rather than at the very beginning. Oh no, Matthias killed him.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:17

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Uh since you mentioned Constance, she was low-key one of my favorite characters. I think she was Mama Favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:30

She's got that Mama Bear chemistry. Oh, yeah. And she is very pragmatic in a lot of her solutions.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:38

I love how they call her country bumpkin. Like Matthias even said Father Abbott's like, you better go with her. She's kind of a little uh simple-minded. It's like Constance proves them wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

She turns out to be like the most the best like war general in the whole thing. Which this is this is what I want to bring up with the MVP. For me, the three MVPs in this book were Constance, Basil, and Jess Squirrel. Oh yeah. Which ones, which out of the three, who would you pick for your MVP? Oh, Constance. Constance. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:15

Yeah, we're all in agreement. Let's go over Constance's solo story. Fantastic, but yeah, Constance. Let's go over Constance's actions, her solo story. Once again, like this makes the world feel immersive because she is acting in the best way that she thinks is for the she is acting in the best way for Red Wall. And we see her making deals with the foxes behind Abbott Mortimer's back, like not even including him in on it. And knowing these, you're knowing like I can't trust these guys. I'm gonna make it look like and then meeting up with the foxes, just uh, yeah, I'll take those plants, no payment whatsoever.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:54

Such a good scene that's lost.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:57

And breaking his sword with her bare paws. Just so cool, and you know, having the idea, you know, if I got rid of Clooney, this whole thing would be over. And he's so close. Later in the book, just telling one dude, a beaver, keeping it hush-hush, yeah. Let's just let's make a crossbow, just snipe this dude. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:17

Like, so awesome. I love the scene in the in the graphic novels, it is pretty epic. You have Sheila the Fox who is heal you know, healing Clooney, and she steals his plans, and you know, is trying to work out a deal, and then so cool too, because Constance sneaks up on a fox, and then straight up, just the scene of her grabbing the fox around the neck. It's like, you don't mess with a badger.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:40

She out foxes a fox, which after reading Marvin the Warrior and Salamandestron, one thing I've learned about Brian Jakes's world, if you want to go with a build in this world, Badgers. Badgers are OP. You be a badger, and you will be trustwide.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

I think in the animal kingdom. You'll love Madame Mayo.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:00

They're pound for pound the the toughest animal in the world. A Wolverine is basically like a supercharged badger. Yeah. Like they are so there's a reason the African uh honey badger is known as like the creature.

unknown 1:09:18

No care.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:19

He just does not give it. Badgers are just where it's at.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:22

Yeah. There are stories after stories in archaeology of archaeologists being chased by badgers because if you happen to dig into one of their dens, they come out furious.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

They don't have the the flight response. No, it's always just fight. It's always fight. But uh who's the who's the rat that she had like the she like Red Tooth. Oh yeah, red tooth.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

Where she's like, come back, red tooth. What's such a cool?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

It's like, we have a we have a score to settle? Yeah, score to settle. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That was so good. And I just love, no matter what, she was always a threat to the enemy. Like they're just like, oh my, we what are we gonna do about this bad?

SPEAKER_08 1:10:10

The only way they can do anything is by sneaking up while she's sleeping and like putting a nap on her, tie her down, and even then, and in fact, what do you guys think of the scene in the show?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:21

And like it's the finale fight, you know, they're all fighting, and Constance grabs what it's a rat. She's like, You're mine. And it like goes black screen, which and then you hear the bones crunching. The only other character they've done that for was Asmadeus, the standing dragon for this myth. And they gave Constance the same treatment. Like, every time that scene comes up, like, but holy crap, you did this for a villain. This is a good guy. You just made her like, she's got no weapons, and she ripped that guy to pieces with her jaws.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

You can't leave much to the imagination there.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:59

Like, oh my gosh, the kids are gonna think that battery's one of the scariest things ever, which chicken bounding over.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:13

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:15

Yeah. Well, second, I would say, is Basil. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:19

I mean, Jess Squirrel is pretty Jess came in clutch in just the right moments, but and I would say in general, Basil was kind of there for most things for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

Yeah. But I gotta talk about Constance and the Crossbow. Because when I read this as a kid, I thought this was the coolest thing I have ever read. That part. Where she snipes Cheese Thief. Uh it's Cheese Thief. Yeah, it's Cheese Thief. Because Clooney was so many of them, I always forget.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:53

Dude, he gives them all names. I'm just surprised that Brian Jakes is able to come up with all these names for so many characters that don't stick around for long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:03

And just great names. Right. For like villain characters and all these different creatures or animals, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:10

Man, I that was I did not remember a lot about the book, you know, from reading it as a kid, but that part was so ingrained in my memory. Like, I was like excited to read it again. And then yeah, it didn't disappoint reading it again as an adult, but yeah, I I totally forgot about it.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:31

And then you're right, as soon as it came up, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, this is that part.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

It's so cool. I knew it wasn't Clooney. She sniped, but still, I'm just like, oh my gosh, this is the coolest thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:45

Well, what I saw in the show, because I watched the show like two years, two years ago, so before I even read the book, I like because it was on Plex, so I was like, oh yeah, I might as well go down somewhat nostalgia lane and see if it's like any good as what people are saying. And when I saw that episode, that scene where they like snipe, I'm like, whoa, this this show got a little ballsy. And then when I picked up the book, I'm like, there's no way that's in here. There, like, that was the showrunners just you know trying to show that they had balls. And I then I read, I was like, this actually happens. Yeah, this actually happens. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:22

So cool. And I I again just that Hersh stepping up to that leadership and like, we gotta do something about clearing, and just you know, yeah, doing the most crazy thing possible, building a giant crossbow with a with a was it a fence, like a metal fence bowl.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:40

No, it was like a candle um like put her outer pole for the one. I don't know, that's an odd word, put her outer. That's put her outer. It's a candle snuffer. That's right. A candle snuffer on a pole, and she just makes that into an arrow, like really cool.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:56

Hammers it into an arrow just uh just on a whim.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:59

Oh yeah. On a whim.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:00

Badger, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:01

Don't mess with the badger. I also love how Clooney tries to twist it into like, oh, I knew this plant on. Yeah, I knew that they were gonna try and assassinate.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:11

The show does that so weird because it's like he has all these spies. And there's a weird moment where he has like a small magpie that spies for him.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:21

Dude, they I guess they're small birds. They were so inconsistent with like, because first off, they say, Shadow, you're the only one who can climb the walls. But then that episode, the crossbow, kill Cody the Ferret. Oh, look, he's just called the walls, just whistling in. And then they have a burn, like, so like I did not like how awesome. Whereas in the book, it's like Clooney sees an opportunity where he can take it. Clooney is the smartest guy in his horde. That's why he's the leader, and he sees a way to just constantly build himself up. And you know, I think it that made him better as a villain for it. Just be like, oh dang it, I lost one of my best guys right now, but better let all the other guys know I'm still the best. Yeah, that you get no, yeah, he's still the sociopath who has to like build himself up all the time. Yeah. Well, I guess do we want us to talk about Basil now? Or since we mentioned Clooney, like I'd like to talk about Basil for a bit as why he's my second choice. Like Jess was pretty invaluable, but Basil, he was given orders and he kind of kept the morale up because he's just a very optimistic, positive, upbeat kind of guy. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:31

Just lovable character. I feel like he's kind of like a he's like a hoppy in Doc. You know, he's he's got that insatiable, just that positivity that you just can't help but you know enjoy and be around. And his his appearance in the book, and even in the show, when he just pops up in camo and my thighs gets him, just you're just like, what? Who's this character? And then you start work, you know, getting into him and you're like, this guy's fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:59

Okay, his introduction in the book, yes, I was like that, just like, oh man, this guy's fantastic. Up until you know, he just leaves to go to his borough to just start cleaning.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

And I was reacting the same way. I was reacting the same way my thoughts was. I'm like, Basil, my guy, what kind of stupid decision is that? There are lines on the line here, dude.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:23

You you just did unfocused bunny. I was like so mad. But that's the only time he ever like got my scorn from that. I'm like, what the heck? Yeah, spring cleaning, you know? Sorry, I gotta distract. Matthias reacted so appropriately, just as the reader would be like, oh, I'm so happy you could join us then.

unknown 1:16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:50

But after that, I feel like Basil is, well, top hole material. What what? Tophole. Yes. Basil stag hat. Yep. He's he's got that great optimism that the troops just soak in, and you know, him and Jess get a great friendship to where they just say, you know, it'd be great if we got the tapestry back, and I think it's Basil's like, well, what are we waiting for? Let's go do this, you know?

SPEAKER_08 1:17:12

Oh yeah. Yeah. Again, throwing Matthias into the mix into the show did such a disservice to that scene.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:20

Well, they also made it look like Jess and Basil were deserting, which I was like, you're adding so much unneeded drama. Ugh, this is I hate it when they do this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:29

Like with the whole they were they didn't have enough rations in Redwall. When in the book it clearly states, we have plenty.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:36

The book, they never seemed short on food, especially with how much Basil was just downing. He was just always like when him and Matthias are in their sick beds, he's like, Yeah, bring me uh four flagons of like the October ale, like just four will do, you know, not too much. You know, give me a warrior's supper. Like, they're never short on food. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:01

That's so funny. That's so good.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:02

Oh, and uh, I guess he does mention he's in the long patrol, which I'm glad I read Salamandastron, where you learn the Long Patrol are these hares that are defending a mountain fortress for a badger lord, and they're all like top-notch hares. So I'm like, Basil is one of these guys? Oh no! That's on the list. No wonder he's top hole material. I want to read that one. So good. Salamandastron was a sleeper for me. I was not expecting it to be that good. The only reason Redwall is a little bit better, Asmodeus.

unknown 1:18:29

That's why.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:32

Cluny's a little better as an antagonist.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

Asmodeus. Yes. Asmodeus.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:43

Which, yes, you could argue that's how it is. I like Asmodeus because it fits the hypnotic chance that he does to as you look into his eyes and you freeze with his hypnotism.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

Or is it me?

SPEAKER_08 1:19:01

The voice of Winnie the Pooh for the snake. Just great. Top notch.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:06

Top notch material. Oh my cool. You get a coping cop! Just a slap, man. The disrespect in that slap.

SPEAKER_08 1:19:25

Oh my gosh. So great. It's great.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:29

Anyway, but Jess Squirrel, yeah, still very invaluable. She was the climber to get up to the weather vane. Yeah. And she was able to almost rescue Matthias from King Bull Sparrow. Invaluable.

SPEAKER_08 1:19:44

I just love that one with Bull Sparrow and Matthias. And again, I've read it before. I've seen the show. And I'm still, you know, in that whole interaction when Bull Sparrow shows up, I'm like, no, oh my gosh. He's flying out here. Just like it's like it was so much like uh Jurassic Park. You know, I could read this book over and over again, and I'm getting into these scenes over and over again. Just so cool, so well written, and so such good action in the book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:15

Oh yeah. Um do we want to talk about Clooney? Or let me look at the list of the characters, or do we want to talk about Warbeak? Yeah, let's let's get into Warbeak real quick.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:27

I think I think we will spend quite a bit on Clooney too, and he's been intermixed between. But um and this is kind of an interesting thing. I was telling my wife about uh one of the things I heard, uh, Brian Jakes didn't intend to have any of his creatures or characters be like representations of any groups. Again, I I think that's kind of not entirely true considering the shrews are basically Russian communists, but uh and the sparrows are basically uh indigenous uh tribes.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:03

But I gotta hand it to them. Their dialect does like it's it's quick, it's very simple, and you can just see a bird that you know is always tweeting just one note after another. I'm like, yeah, I can see a sparrow just a worm.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a dialect to them, and they yeah, have references like everything's a worm. Anything bad is a worm, anything lesser is a worm, the bug is a worm, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:29

I love the whole aspect of like the moles even have like different language or different um dialect.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:37

Like they could barely understand that it means get out of the way.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:40

Well well, still the moles, I feel like they're very slept on because it might just be because of the other books I read, Mar on the Warrior and Salamandastrong, because there's moles in those ones too. I really love the dialect of the moles because it is it's even though you can like I had a hard time reading it.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:56

They're basically the dwarves.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:57

Yeah, they're basically the dwarves of the group, but they're also they got that earthy but warm and homely. I'll reckon that a vegetable soup is good.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:11

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:12

Yeah, like that's good. It's it's always just so friendly and just down to earth, but you know, they got that, like you know they got some meat behind their that like some weight behind their punches that you know.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:27

The moles sure did a whole heck of a lot.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:30

That's true. They did and just out of the goodness of the heart, like, yeah, let's I got the moles here. Come do this for us. No complaints. They'll they'll just do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:41

Dig tunnels, move some stones, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:44

Yeah, let's just dig a tunnel to go save this hedgehog, you know? Yeah, we'll just do it on the fly. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no problem.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:52

So good. The moles are so fun. Uh Warbeak, I she was one of my favorite characters growing up. I thought she was just again, funny, silly, especially in the show, but uh again, just the almost the instantaneous friendship she got with Matthias, especially after they try and kill each other, where yeah, she knocks him off first, and then he's just like dangling her over the edge, and she's like, Are we gonna have any more trouble? And then I I think I loved just the the her integrity. I think that really stood out because you know, as soon as she said, like, no, we're be you know, swear on uh egg mother or egg. Oh yeah, on Mother's Egg or something. On Mother's Egg, and you know, and it was like, yeah, and and she kept her word, you know, she was a became such a reliable friend in character with Matthias. And I I think the show builds upon her more uh in some negative ways, some good ways too. But um, yeah, I just I I absolutely loved the spare characters. I think they were and especially their dialect. I I it's one of those uh phrases I I always say when I'm walking around, people are like, What is he doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:02

Like, killy, killy, kitty, gitty!

SPEAKER_08 1:24:04

Is he a tourette? Word friend Matthias, crazy mouse. Crazy mouse.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:12

I love how Matthias like asks her, like, how good is a sparrow's word? You know, and you can just tell she's like, Oh, I take pride in this. I would never break my word. Yeah, that big swear.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:23

I swear on mother, egg. That big swear. Big sweat.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:27

Oh yeah. Fantastic. And I and I I do I do think Brian Jakes didn't intend to represent any particular group in a negative light. I think he was just he was using real-world kind of things to integrate into these creature characters that he was trying to represent as the creatures themselves, kind of in their own like the like the moles, like you're saying, like moles, sure you could compare them to dwarves, but they are very mole-like.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:53

Yeah, they're they're pretty docile. Like you can pick one up out of the yard and it's like not gonna bite you, it's just gonna be like, well, they're blind, first off.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

So they're like, we're feeling dirt. Where's the dirt?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:07

But like they're not like these dangerous creatures, so they do feel like nice and just homely.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:17

But yeah, I guess since you mentioned that, one thing I noticed with a few books I've read, you since you've read more of them, you might be able to uh dispel my one little claim.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:30

I think you have me beat because I've only read Redwall and Matameo.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:33

You got me beat now. But one thing I noticed, it's kind of one of my complaints with Brian Jakes. It seems if you are born a rat, a weasel, a stoat, a fox, you're a bad guy. You are you're you're evil. Don't you can't you can't be good.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:53

Love foxes, but they're all bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:55

There's there are no new nuances there. Like, you are a terrible human being and your your existence is made to hinder the good woodland creatures. Like, I guess that is a big that could be uh a blanket statement for most fantasy because you know, Lord of the Rings orcs, yeah. They're the evil fodder. Like, they're never gonna be good. You're born an orc, guess what, dude? You hate men.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:19

Yep. Man flesh. Man flesh. Oh yeah, exactly. I think it and the I think the the show kind of shows that too when there's an instance where the rats are talking about eating one of the mice. I think one of the door mice, and it's just like, oh dang. Yeah. Yeah, the rats are the bad. They're the bad guys.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:41

Yeah, but he didn't pick bad creatures to represent his evil classes, because yeah, rats, everyone hates rats. And weasels are known for just being sneaky and traitorous and just sneaking to the the hen house along with the foxes. Foxes are known for their cunning and slyness, and stoats are kind of around the same way as foxes and stuff like that. So he obviously used what people the general thinking of these species to class them into their DD class of you know, chaotic evil or lawful evil.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:10

Oh yeah. Yeah. Which I think it it is almost a a good stance to take with children's literature, because then it it is that you have uh the kids can quickly identify, oh, this is a rat, this is gonna be a bad guy. This is a badger, they're gonna be big and scary, but a good person. Or a good person.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:29

They're gonna be good, but boy, you don't want to make them bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:33

Yeah, exactly. I think that's that's kind of the purpose of it, is to keep it simple, keep it kind of you know not too complicated. Oh yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:45

That's true. It is it is for kids, it is for young readers. I have to remember that. But I would like appreciate some nuance because kids can understand nuance. Yeah. Have have one weasel who wants to just defy all expectations. For me. But there's 22 books. I could be wrong. Yeah. Whoever's listening or watching, let me know if I'm wrong and recommend me to read one of these. Recommend it to all of us, please.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:11

Oh yeah. Give us put in your favorite Red Wall book, Redwall series book. If there's one better than Red Wall or Meta Mayo, let us know.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:19

And and try to argue that badgers aren't the best in the in the series. They're the tanks, they're the ones you just don't mess with.

unknown 1:28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:29

Oh yeah. Shall we talk about Clooney? The antagonist. The scourge. The main antagonist, I should say. Yes, the scourge. For a book for young readers, how do you think he is for an antagonist?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:44

So cool. Yeah. I think he's just the definition of like a bad guy. Perfect villain. You know, eye patch, spike on his tail, just a complete psychopath, a mole skull for his case.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:07

Which again, the show kind of when he first approaches Red Wall, he approaches in like disguise. But then in in the book, in the comic, he's like full on ready for war. And he's in the graphic novel, it's super sick. Because he's got this like bat cloak. Yeah. And this like super, this like gnarly spiked tail. That's supposed to be, I guess, poison barbers.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:28

He's got a poison barb for it.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:30

So I mean, yeah, this graphic novel is metal, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:34

Look at Asmodeus. Holy moly.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:37

Yeah, graphic novel. Definitely recommend picking it up. Uh if you if you find one, I found it at a thrift store. It was a pretty good deal. So it was like great condition, too. Yeah. Yeah, great. Art is fantastic. I can't remember the art is fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:51

Holy moly. Yeah. But I like how we how they have the bat wing cloak, which is mentioned in the book, actually make it look like Clooney has the bat's wings. I always just imagine just a black leathery cape, but that actually looks awesome. That's pretty good. It's featured on the cover there. He just looks like this menacing draconic crow. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:12

They make him huge in there too. Like when you when you see him compared to some of the other woodland creatures. He's massive.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:19

Yeah, because they um describe him as uh what like a build rat. He's bigger than any other rat. What do they call him? A ship. A sea rat. Yeah, sea rat. Sea rat. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. But one of my favorite parts with Clooney and I guess Matthias is um when he first comes to the Abbey, and he's like, you know, we're we'll put all our weapons down. And Matthias is like, yeah, but what about your tail? And he's like, hmm, pretty smart of you, mouse, noticing that. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:56

I I love how it looks in the book too. When he ties his tail, he still looks super menacing. Every tail tied or something. Like, that kind of looks silly in my mind. Yeah. Like at this scene, he's like tearing up the table, and it's like, oh, he's still a threat.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:12

Oh, dude, Constance lifting up the table in that scene. Just so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:17

Just get out! Get out!

SPEAKER_06 1:31:19

Oh my gosh. Lifted up this oak table. What was it? So that's the same. 15 mics can't lift. Oh man. But I think he is a great antagonist for Young Readers, and he is resourceful and pretty clever. I have to hand it to him. He's just not smart enough to surround himself with other smart people because his biggest downfall is just the incompetence of his lackeys. Constantly letting his lackeys be killed off. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:49

But I also feel like it's kind of his problem that they're all like gunning for each other. There's no camaraderie. There's no like loyalty to the.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:02

Yes, Scrag. Yeah, Scrag. Which talk about another crazy scene from a kid's book where he's stepping on Scrag's throat and just watching him dead. Just because it's like, yeah, you almost took my job. Like, imagine if corporate America was like that. You outshine me in this job position.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:21

I see an opportunity to kill you. I got you. Like, that is nuts. I tried to save in chief. I tried, but you couldn't say it.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:29

Oh, I'm just baking that. He's sad about it. But at the same time, there are people to a degree that are like that in this world. So, like, because kids all the time, they are always vying for someone's respect or for their praise. And I feel like that's a great way Brian Jake shows that you don't want to be too much like that, kids, because it leads you to do bad things. But yeah, Clooney's biggest downfall is just like, dude, you gotta surround yourself with more confidence, dude. But there is a paragraph in there where he says Clooney's Clooney realized he's the only one who has ideas, he's the only one who's the smartest, that's why he's the chief. And I'm like, okay, he knows it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:06

Yeah, and there's another quote in there that I loved where it's like, I don't like anybody with ambition besides me. So yeah, I and great thing about Clooney, I feel like you've kind of talked about this before, is um just the pure, the purity of just having like such a clear bat. Like you don't you don't sympathize with Clooney at all.

SPEAKER_08 1:33:35

You know, he's just an evil, straightforward, nothing redeeming. You don't even know his backstory other than he's like killed and he's been like doing it for years.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:43

Yeah. He's a warlord who's been doing it for like I think they mentioned six years. So they Brian Jakes did a really good job building him up as something that needed to be conquered. And you shouldn't have any more moral qualms about getting rid of this guy. So when Constance is trying to snipe him, you're not thinking about the morality of it. You're like, yeah, I want a direct hit.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:04

Yeah, we do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:06

And can I just say one of one of the best ways Brian Jakes built up Clooney is how he also out foxes the foxes, which I thought was such a fun game of, hmm, I don't trust you and you don't trust me, but I'm gonna string you along because you think you're stringing me along. And it's I gotta say, Sella and Chicken Out were miserable excuses for foxes. They did not outsmart anybody but probably Red Tooth.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:34

Oh, yeah. You gotta read Matameo. That's gotta be the next one on your list. Yes, isn't that uh such a good follow-up, Chicken Out?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:42

No, I I already know. Yeah, you should know if you've seen the show. Oh, I haven't watched that season, but one of my co-workers I work with, he's a 55 I work with, he's a 55-year-old electrician with me, and he's read all 22 of these books. Oh wow. And when I mentioned we were doing this for the podcast, he was like, Oh, I remember those books. And then he's like, tell me, he's like, because I've kept mentioning, I'm like, I wish Matt and Mattumeo was in the library. I kind of want to read this one because that's Matthias' son, and I'm kind of invested in Matthias's life here. So if it's a continuation of him, I want to see Matthias as a dad. Oh yeah. And he talks about how Chicken Hound is the main antagonist.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:20

I'm like, Chicken Hound died to Asmadeus, idiot.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:24

And he's like, oh man. Read the text again. Does it say he actually dies? And I like reread it, and yeah, it just says he like reaches for his bag, and then he it just says, Asmodeo.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:34

Clooney is fantastic, but Slagar, just worlds above as a villain. Just I mean, talk about a step-up as a book. Matameo, definitely one of my topics. I'm glad you mentioned that. Absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:47

With the with the few books I've read of Brian Jakes, one of my other few complaints was I feel like every villain was just Clooney 2.0 or Clooney 3.0. Oh yeah. Like none of them were getting up to how good Clooney was. So you're saying in Matameo that there is one.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:05

Oh yeah. It's a very different style of villain, but yeah. Great, fantastic. I think. Okay, great. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:12

And I love I love his look in the the show because he's got that like checkered mask or the Argyle mask. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:22

Stella Luninari. Luna Stellari.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:27

Yeah, sorry, that that uh that plot point was not gonna be a surprise for me. I know you wanted to keep it.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:33

No, it is for everyone else. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:37

No, we're good.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:38

Granted, these have been around for decades.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:40

Established over 20 million copies sold.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:44

So it is a popular series. If you haven't, then you're missing sorry you're missing out. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:50

But yeah, Clooney, yeah. I felt like was established as a threat, and it was good to have um which the beginning of the book.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:01

I I love how they introduce it, and especially with the Clooney was coming. Clooney is getting closer, and you know, every scene where he's like progressing towards the the church on the cart, and then it finally at the when he gets to the church, Clooney had arrived. It's just like the threat draw near draws nearer.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:20

Which I feel like the TV show, they would, instead of always building Clooney up as a villain, as a threat, they would take a lot of back steps with him, like, yes, he had the dreams of Martin like killing him, but they made a lot of scenes where, like, oh, I see the armor of Martin. Run away! Like, he looks like such a coward. Like, get get out of here with this nonsense. Yeah. And I guess side note, the one dream sequence where it shows the skeletons of his old captains going at him. Once again, dude, what's with this going from baby o'clock to oh my gosh, we're going to little house of horrors now. What is baby o'clock?

unknown 1:38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:38:02

What's happening? Get our priorities set. Are we gonna make this aggressive or not?

SPEAKER_06 1:38:07

Like, I felt like they would amp it to 11 and then just bring it down. And then amp, like they would have had spikes of just like, yeah, let's make this like the darkest kid show ever for like two minutes.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:21

Just a little bit. Just a little bit. A little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:25

And then Watership Downs, like, hold my beer.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:28

Oh man. Now that you mentioned that, who's the better rabbit? Or I guess Basil's a hair, but who's the better rabbit? Basil or bigwig? Oh, bigwig. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_08 1:38:42

I mean, they're very different, but they are. It is uh because I think Bigwig plays more of a constant role in Watership Down.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:50

Yeah, true. They both have their roles. Like, yeah, Bigwig's my favorite bunny. The bunny. Yeah. The bunny. Close second is Pipkin. I loved Pipkin. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:04

Mm-hmm.

unknown 1:39:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:05

Clauru.

SPEAKER_08 1:39:06

Anyway, what are you talking about? What do you guys think? Um, I want to I want to touch on Clooney's death while we're on him. Um now the I I'm in a weird area with this, because even when I was little, it's an interesting moment because Matthias, he's like, I give my word as a warrior, I will come down, which I mean he technically does. But I mean, honestly, I would do the same thing. I any chance, any advantage over a villain like Clooney, I'm taking it. There is no honor in fighting someone like Clooney. You have to defeat this evil.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:37

I was in agreement with that because I'm like, okay, that wasn't the most honorable way to kill him. But at the same time, I'm like, Clooney doesn't deserve the respect and honor.

SPEAKER_08 1:39:50

Where, yeah, the hero, I mean, obviously it's sure, like it's great to have an honorable hero, you know, but honestly, when they're dealing with an evil like Clooney, sometimes you need that. Yeah, yeah, practicality, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:04

Well, I think it it was just the last thing Clooney expected, too. He's just like, oh, all these honorable people are so predictable.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:11

Yeah, all these mice and their stupid sense of honor.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:15

And then I love it, like when the bell is falling, he's just like can't even move because he's so like surprised that this is happening. Yeah. Oh dang.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:29

Did you guys think uh it was better in the show they used corn flour, or do you think that was really necessary in the story? Like in the book, I think it's just uh the Fryer.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:39

Yes, it's Friar Hugo Friar Hugo ringing the bell.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:44

I think con or not corn flour kind of gives a little bit more motivation for protection, but honestly, it it just kind of I don't feel like it it they kind of shoehorned cornflower into the scene in the show to kind of put her there, but yeah, because you know, you have a lot of people think these kids need to know what love is at the same time, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:06

You have to teach these kids that they have to one day fall in love with someone, and I get it, and I fell victim to it as a kid so much. Like the little stories I wrote was always about how the girl I had a crush on just saw how great I was finally. Like, it is the most embarrassing form of literature that I can't believe I'm mentioning online. There's a reason it's all destroyed now, it was very critical. But I guess here here was my complaint with the final confrontation with Clooney, which is gonna lead us into the next character. Before that, Brian Jakes did such a good job building up Asmodeus, the secondary antagonist. And as soon as Matthias defeated Asmodeus, my mind was Clooney screwed. Like, there's no way he's not gonna win against Clooney. Like, he just he just killed a giant snake, dude.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:04

No, I I would actually disagree with that. I think it is very different considering they were almost two entirely different threats, given like kind of like we were saying with Asmodeus, you were saying this earlier, I think you said this earlier. He like represented the dragon in the story. Um and you have I which I think is a wonderful um element to put in the story where you do have this monster, almost overwhelmingly large threat, kind of like Smog uh, or in this case Asmodeus, who you almost think couldn't be defeated, um but then is almost taken out in a single blow, right? With the smog as the arrow, um with Asmodeus, you know, the sw the one swing with the sword. Well, Clooney had you had to have a plan, you had you had to kind of go in and there was a fight, right? With Asmodeus, there wasn't so much of a fight, but so in in my opinion, I think there there was a great contrast, or there was enough contrast between them that it it still had a great good enough substance for me, but I don't know. You can sorry Derek, you can't no you're okay, you're okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:10

I just he just did such a good job building up Asmodeus, just yeah, slithering here and there throughout the story, ever so little bit. Like just the the whole scene of him finding who is it that he finds knocked out from from Constance knocking out what is it? Is it Red Tooth? Or yeah, it was the stole called Red Tooth, and just he just finds it. And I loved the last paragraph in that chapter of how he finds him, just knocked out. No need of burial place parties. Nature and the woodlands took care of their own funeral arrangements. There was but one efficient undertaker. The adder's jaws opened in something resembling the nightmare of a smile. The pathway to eternity was open, which calling his ma the pathway to eternity. That was so cool. It was so cool. And he's just going through the story. And it and the show did actually a pretty good job of building up too. Just these few scenes of him just finding these helpless animals and just eating them and having them terrified. And to have and even when they're in Asmodeus' lair, like you are finding, you're finding Gaussian, like, alright, cool. We're reuniting your friends. She's dead, she's dead. And she was left by the snake. She was left there as a snake, like the snake doesn't probably didn't meant mean to do this, but it's doing some psychological warfare now here, man. You are in the pretty much the belly of the beast in his home turf, and you think you're gonna win when he just stumbled upon gals and be like, yeah, I'll kill you and eat you later. Okay, just die. Okay, I'm gonna go to sleep now because this is my home. I have full advantage here. And Matthias beating him in the which Matthias is frozen by the stair. It's only because Martin's spirit was able to rouse him out of it that he was able to get out of there and just behead this monster serpent.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:10

That I was like, What's Clooney got?

SPEAKER_06 1:45:14

He's got nothing. It was so cool that I'm like, what are you gonna do, Clooney? Like, you your guys were afraid to beat a dragon. Yeah, your guys were afraid of Asmodeus, which fun little parallel I noticed there, his Clooney's men call Asmodeus the father of all serpents, which I'm like, I wonder if that had some Tolkien inspirations, because Tolkien's very first dragon in his mythos, Glaurung, is known as the father of all dragons. And there's a lot of artwork out there that shows Glaurung as, well, basically a giant worm or a large snake. Others they show him having four feet, which I prefer the the four limbs. But he's not a winged drake, so I'm just like, ooh, I wonder if Asmodeus was inspired by Glaurung. But the name Asmodeus or Asmodeus is an actual name in, I believe, Jewish mythology. Uh he was, I believe, the demon of lust and also a ringmaster of making magic rings, which I think he does with Solomon. But he was also, that demon was also an inspiration for Sauron, which I'm like, ooh, so just the very name of Asmodeus. I was like getting so much dopamine from past literature. Just so good. Again, perfect naming. Oh yeah. And tell us in the comments, what which way do you prefer to say it? Asmodeus or Asmodeus? Asmodeus. But yeah, the audio book said Asmodeus, and I was like, screw this guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:51

Hey, well, you didn't sell Asmodeus as good as you did with Asmodeus. You gotta give it a shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:04

It seems way more hypnotic with Asmodeus.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:09

Yeah. What do you think, Greg? That's part of the book is mod Asmodeus. Do you have any thoughts on the the difference or any uh with between Clooney and Asmodeus in the threat?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:21

Yeah. Um I think you both have have points. Um I don't know. I think I think it's definitely Asmodeus does represent that heroes like he just reached his journey, conquered the dragon, yeah. And then Clooney is just kind of like the I don't know how to describe it, but is it is different.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:51

I guess you would say Clooney is like the more strategic opponent to where you know he can danger, he can adapt based on what the hero does. So he's still, I guess, the more unpredictable threat. Whereas Asmodeus is like so unconquerable, he thinks, yeah, this is not a threat. I don't have to change any of my battle strategies. So yeah, you got a point there, but still, after seeing Matthias kill slay the dragon, I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_08 1:48:17

No, it's it is that it's that level. He Matthias became that great warrior in that moment, and it was like he almost no threat could stand before him. Yeah. And that I think they they have their roles, which again, I think there's wonderful writing in this where having the two threats they coalesce into making this a fantastic story. Because if he didn't have Asmodeus, it would feel so much more empty. Same with Clooney. It's like Clooney's that pressing threat, Asmodeus is that threat that's out there. Matthias is going to have to face Asmodeus, but he's never like around, he never really threatens any of the Redwallers. It's usually only Clooney's people that are kind of getting knocked off one by one. Um, but that threat's out there, and then Clooney's here, he's present. So yeah, I just love I love the interaction between all of that. How it it gives the story so much substance, it it keeps it, keeps it going, keeps you thinking in the back of your mind, you're like, Asmodeus is out there, like you said, you know, he's built up so much throughout the story. I mean, he's never a threat, Matthias, until that moment.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:21

That's true. And I love how snakes are like so rare that they're myth to most people. Which I was like, oh, you're going into that that this is the dragon of the story kind of thing. Which you've heard of this the book Hero of a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell? I think I've heard of it. He's the one that established the hero's journey, that whole drawing. I wonder if uh there's a book out there. Maybe I should write this The Monster of a Thousand Faces, where a dragon is represented in so many stories. Because you have a snake as the dragon here, and in Mrs. Frisbee and The Rats of Nim, they you have a cat named Dragon as the Monster Force that they need to avoid or subvert. Hmm. Yeah. I need to get smarter. How to read it. How to read it. I need to get smarter. And I need to reread Hero of the Thousand Faces because it's one of those like textbook kind of style books. So an audiobook with it, I was uh I'm not gonna say it's a huge entertaining read, but it's packed with so much information that writers need to know.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:27

Oh yeah, that that is a big one on the list to read and I'm gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:31

So like I have to ref I have to reference it with reverence because I cannot I cannot discount it, even though it's you know not this action-packed fun story that we can all go on, but we owe so many of the stories we love to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:46

Oh yeah, yeah. Anyway, well Jordan Peterson talks about that a lot. That psychological like reasoning behind slaying the dragon and why it's such a prominent thing in in storytelling, for sure.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:01

Oh yeah. Uh uh in touching on that, um, I think I mean we've already talked a lot about it, but I also want to talk about the other characters that kind of fit into this role in the book. But using the animals to portray like mythical heroic moments and characters and creatures. Um I I'd really like, Greg, how you mentioned earlier how this book could be made into a live-action movie with like humans filling these roles with these characters, and you even have and you could have like the the bigger creatures like uh Captain Snow, Asmodeus representing like these big mythological creatures, um, like a dragon.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:38

You could have snow be like a sphinx or some other mythical creature that's known for having hippogriffs or having something for known for wisdom to core, yeah, or something, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:48

Um what what did you like be getting that out so I can talk? Uh what did you guys think of using like a house cat or a snow owl to be those grand big monster creatures? Like when I think of a house cat, I don't always think of you know this scary monstrous creature that the shrews are terrified of. But you know, he again Julian or Squire Julian is uh isn't really turns out to be a monster at all, but he still has that appearance.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:26

Yeah. Well, I think in um a mouse world, those are the dragons. Yeah, those are the biggest villains, like they're the number one predators, snakes, owls, cats. Yeah, they kill the most the most birds, the most rodents, the most efficient predator out there.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:49

So yeah, I think they they represent just kind of like the almost like demigod, like the Balrogs, the dragons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:52:58

These creatures that have been around for a long time. Like I think you're saying Azmodeus almost seemed like a myth to some of them. Um, yeah. Definitely a cool. I I think again the benefit of of having your mice be the hero characters is being able to, yeah, put those big threats in front of them that to us, a cat wouldn't seem that so savage or vicious, even a snake, but to them it it is the monster.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:22

Yeah, I guess that's a great segue into what we kind of hinted at with this episode. Why, why do so many writers because it's not just Brian Jakes who has a mouse be a protagonist? Like it makes sense that he has a badger be this tank and just brutal force on the battlefield. It makes sense to have a hare be this hoppy attitude, unintended. And it makes sense to have rats be these dirty, scurvy, um underhanded tactic users.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:52

The fox be the gypsies, the creatures, the fly ones that want to.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:56

So why why did he go with mice? Why do so many writers have these heroes be mice? Which we got a lot of great comments on those with our video. In fact, let me see if I can read a few of them because they were just really stellar. Let me turn off the volume so we're not hearing this. Um shoot. Because it's doing really well on Instagram. We got about 20 comments on there, and some of my favorite were one person said it's because mice are hot. Okay, someone's into something there.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:41

I mean, cornflower, come on. Clooney even thought she was pretty.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:45

Um it's um we even had Red Wall Wiki comment with a quote from Brian Jakes himself saying, Mice are my heroes because, like children, mice are little and have to learn to be courageous and use their wits, which I feel is really a great summary on there. And there's also um Yonatan68. It's because mice have cuteness to them, and that's cuteness, and that cuteness it feels to the audience for well, I think you got some spelling errors. To the audience for his rats are always seen scurrying about places that are filthy and dirty. Where is mice? They're not they're not going to those areas, filth and dirt, and whenever you see mice, a lot of their food. Okay, that one's not as inspirational.

SPEAKER_08 1:55:36

Spell check, people, spell check before you post.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:39

My favorite one is the simple one from Gunderson Metalworks. To stand up is great, to stand when you are so small is mythical.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:48

Mm-hmm. That's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:50

Yep. Yeah, I think we cannot talk about this subject without mentioning hobbits. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:00

Which some people did, I believe, on our YouTube page or even on TikTok.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:05

Mm-hmm. What's the quote from the the movie The Hobbit with Gandalf?

SPEAKER_08 1:56:13

Sometimes it's the smallest.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:14

I believe it's Sorrobon believes that only great power can hold darkness at bay, but that is not what I found. Yeah. I found that it is the small deeds, kind deeds of kindness done by ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. I believe that's the quote you're thinking of.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:31

I think it I think that I may have butchered that a little bit, but that's essentially what it is.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:37

That's one of the best gems that the Hobbit movies gave us.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:40

Yeah. Everybody can root for the underdog. I think it's so much easier to fall in love with a character that has to learn, it has to grow, has to step up, is the underdog. Just like Rocky. Yeah. You know, down on the down on their luck, um, maybe not as gifted. I think that just Tolkien really just kind of nailed it with hobbits. Yeah. Creating a creature that is really like a child in a way. Um, but you know, more mature and grown. Um but just has that like an innocence. Humbleness, innocence, yeah, the ability to overcome and grow and and to do more than kind of like what they're made for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:57:45

Yeah. That's a great way to put it. Do more than what they were destined or made for, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:50

Or it's uh kind of like instead of you know, like our the comic book superhero where you have two titans going at it with all these great powers, Frodo didn't defeat Sauron by outmagicking him or out-overpowering him. He did it by enduring. And even in the end, he he you could he failed. He failed, but he had like the biggest burden ever. And it's because him and Sam both endured. It was the the regular person, the everyday person, the ordinary citizen, basically stepping up not to save the whole world, but to at least protect their corner of it. Yeah, and that is what's so inspirational to know that a person like us can defeat the the Superman, this huge um this huge uh totalitarian power, the I believe the German name for it this is the Uberminsch. Um, this opposing force that threatens any of our of what we love, to know that we have the power to do that, and it's through these stories that teaches us that and gives us that mentality. Yeah. And you know, with Brian Jakes using mice, great, great imagery.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:59:09

That honestly is, I think, a message everyone needs to hear right now, especially with kind of the craziness that's going on in the world. I've been hearing a lot of people online talk about how they almost feel powerless to change anything, and they will almost I think the term is blackpilling, but it's blaming everything in your life on like Israel or Russia or Iraq, you know, not too good into it, but people feeling kind of out of ability to do anything with their life because of the craziness and other things going on, thinking they have no control to change anything, when really like that's what this message is. You know, even the littlest hobbit, even the smallest mouse, you know, when they attempt and when they try to make changes, they can do it. And it's the same for us. You know, we can. We just we must try and we must believe and we must endure. And in doing that, we can overcome the challenges we face. So, you know, message to all you people out there, you know, don't give up. Keep going, push through, endure. You know, you can overcome. And you know, don't let the craziness in the world be what pulls you down, but you know, think of what you can do, something you can control.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:20

Yep. If you feel like the if you feel like the deck is stacked against you, you must believe in the heart of the cards.

unknown 2:00:26

Yes!

SPEAKER_03 2:00:29

Yeah. I just love, you know, it I think it's just so great because the the mouse and the hobbit, I would say is like lesser than like us in a way. Like, I look at a hobbit and I'm like, oh, I can I'm stronger than a hobbit, I'm faster than a hobbit, I can do more things than a hobbit. If a hobbit can go and save the world, what does that mean for me? You know, like I can do this too, type thing. I think that's just that is the story. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:10

Yeah, but keep in mind Tolkien was writing Hobbits after World War One, a place that was a meat grinder where you're just a number. And in his books, he's writing where personal choice can affect destinies. And I think he might have made it as an escape from that war that he went in to just remind him and maybe romance the idea that our personal choice does matter, and the individual can have the power to like tip the scale of destiny.

SPEAKER_07 2:01:45

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:45

Mm-hmm. That's a great way to put it. Brian Jakes is definitely doing that with these books where he has these small mouse heroes overcoming like these more cunning, more like stronger and villains that have way more resources than they do and are willing to do whatever it takes to defeat these heroes, like these underhanded tactics.

SPEAKER_07 2:02:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:10

And yet these mice are still coming out on top. It's truly inspirational.

SPEAKER_07 2:02:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:17

I I also think there's something special about saying that good has the benefit on their side. Like good will triumph. That even for the mice, there are so many instances where Clooney could have gotten in. He could have taken over Red Wall, but by almost divine intervention, by happenstance, you know, cornflower happens to be on that wall with a lantern when Clooney is pulling up with a siege tower. And it's you know, it again you could you could say it's a happy coincidence, but in a way, you have like you have whole uh Martin's whole influence, right? Where he he is pushing Matthias to become this warrior. So I think there is a divine nature within this book that it's it's more than magic, it's like a there's a meant to be a divinity to it that is protecting these mice. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:07

I do think that that could be a gripe of you know someone not so much for me, because I do recognize it is for children, I think it's a great representation for that, but like you could argue that really there's not too much conflict, they're able to really overcome this generally pretty easy. Everything kind of falls into place.

SPEAKER_08 2:03:33

It really comes down to Clooney was able to get in because of a traitor, somebody that again. I I don't fault the Dormouse for trying to protect his family, but still in the end, you know, you're dealing with Clooney here, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:03:47

I mean you look at like the journey of Matthias, you know, it's like he befriends a sparrow and he gets kind of like that army to join him, and then he gets comes across the the shrews, and then he gets that army to join him as well.

SPEAKER_08 2:04:02

Such disjointed groups, too, yeah. The shrews and the sparrows who barely can agree on that.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:07

That's such a common trope in in fantasy, it's just you know, the everyone comes together trope, and you know, they come to big beat the big bad guy. Like that's a common fantasy thing, you know. Lord of the Rings showed the union of dwarves, elves, and men, technically, because you know, you only had one elf with Lagolus and one dwarf with Gimli, but it was symbolic of the union. What was left? Yeah, what was left, and you had the alliance of men and elves against Sauron in the Second Age. Like it's nothing new, and that's why fantasy is always getting the critic the critique that it is derivative, like so many of like that divine intervention. Luck is always a big factor as well. Like, how often do you hear how lucky Bilbo is in the Hobbit? And it's kind of like he calls himself Luck Wearer. It's kind of a staple in fantasy that luck will happen, it's used very sparingly if a writer is good at it, and the divine intervention making that you catastrophe or Deus Ex Machina, and yet we still love it. Like to know that, as you said, the good has the benefit of that divine intervention, to know that there are forces unseen that will aid the good are going to help and make everything, well, not make everything right, but aid and have a big push for everything right. It's if you're living life without thinking that there's some force out there to push you towards a good, happy ending for you, yeah. You need to get yourself pulled out of that nile pit of nihilism, man. That's not a way to live.

SPEAKER_08 2:05:41

Oh yeah. Start looking for deeper meaning, start looking for for bigger things around you.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:46

Like we aren't here to search for happiness, but I would argue we're more here to seek virtue. Yeah. Because as Jordan Peterson says in 12 Rules for Life, like happiness isn't synonymous with good. Like my kid having candy before bed is gonna make him happy, but it's not good for his teeth.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:06

I learned my lesson on that. I gave my daughter some candy before bed and ended up with puking the whole night. Oh, you poor fellow.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:19

Dang.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 2:06:23

No, I I think we really built or dissected that pretty well. It it is again. I there's I I love how much we're comparing it to the Hobbit in in a lot of ways. And like, you know, I was saying earlier, this is kind of my my hobbit, and and I think they definitely have their different roles in life considering uh the influences these books can have, but they really do become special to us, um, which I think just really makes it such a great thing. Um do you guys have anything else you want to say, or do you should we jump into the reviews?

SPEAKER_06 2:06:54

Um I I think we've we've talked, unless you have anything to say, Greg.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:58

No, I think I think we all we covered it pretty well. Um, you know, let us know what we missed if you have any insight. We'd love to hear it for sure. You know, we obviously can't do everything, you know. We're limited on time, but we do our best. Let us know what you thought. Um and yeah, like we love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_07 2:07:26

So sweet, awesome, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:07:29

Totally great. All right. Uh I guess I'll jump off. Or I'll it's the book picker that starts the reviews, right? Is that what we're doing? Sure, sure. Yeah. Sounds sensible. Why not? Um, I struggle to review, but I just love so many things. I would give this a nine out of ten. Um, fan, I again, nostalgia plays a huge role in it, but still reading it, oh my gosh, I just loved this thing. Reading again uh for this this this time, and and even diving into the graphic novel and the show, oh, just the feel-goods, the epic battles, epic situations, and just the message this story builds uh or presents is just fantastic. It's a book for all audiences, and uh re rereadability is just fantastic. You know, it's it's one that you could just pick up at any time, read it, and just get a wonderful story in your life.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:31

For sure. Yeah. I I loved it. I thought it was great. I'm gonna go 7.5. Um more so I'm gonna try and like not let nostalgia sway my what I think as an adult. Um I do think it's great, even as an adult. There's things that I I absolutely love about it, and I think Jakes is really a genius, you know. Um such a clever author. Um so yeah, I think I think it's definitely up there, very rereadable. That's that's one thing I I do love about it for sure. But um and the side characters, I think, are some of the strongest points for sure.

SPEAKER_06 2:09:28

Yeah, I was gonna give it a solid 7 out of 10 because this is this is a book for young readers, and if you want your child to get into reading, or you yourself is viewing this and you're a young reader and haven't read this book series, start with Red Roll. There is a lot worse you can do than Red Roll, and not much better. Um, I'm definitely gonna be encouraging my boy to read this someday, and to know that he is consuming this kind of content on his own. I don't have to worry that about him learning anything wrong, and he's just going to be inspired.

SPEAKER_07 2:10:07

Yeah, sweet. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:10

Great.

SPEAKER_08 2:10:13

Thanks guys for reading this with me. Oh, it was great. I know we had a great conversation. It was a it was a good pick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:20

Speaking of picks, oh yes, I believe it is my turn. Yes. So, seeing as how we have mentioned myths so much in this episode, and we have a certain movie coming out next month from Christopher Nolan, why don't we discuss one of the most original tales that we have? The Odyssey. Odysseus. Yes, we'll have to decide which English edition that we're going to read because I know some there have been multiple translations. So let's we're gonna have to decide on that. But in the comments, if you have a high preference on which version of the Odyssey should be studied by most readers, let us know. Yeah, but that is our gonna be our next episode of the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:08

Cool. I feel like we're going to the opposite end of the spectrum, you know, very more adult book here.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:18

A little more complicated, but this is one of the myths that many writers are, you know, that a lot of the tropes were first set.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:26

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I want to say this, the Odyssey has been done like not like the actual story, but like, oh brother, where art thou? Yeah. Think of any other movies that kind of follow the storyline of the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:42

I mean, there's not, but the Odyssey is referenced throughout many, many versions of media.

SPEAKER_08 2:11:47

Like for instance stories with similar kind of trope or similar uh like a a journey of a character encountering all these things.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:54

Yep, it's definitely used and to discuss the hero's journey in the hero of a thousand faces. It is studied by so many scholars, and you know, it's even mentioned in DC comics with Batman saying to Green Lantern when Glen Lantern's like, oh, that that's nobody, and then Batman saying, What did Odysseus tell Cyclops his name was?

SPEAKER_05 2:12:15

He said it was nobody, so that when he poked out Cyclops' eye, all he could say is, Nobody poked out my eye.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:12:23

Showing that even Batman values this piece of literature. So it is, it contains vast knowledge. When Green Land is like, okay, this is something we gotta look into.

SPEAKER_08 2:12:35

I'm I am really excited to uh read this one because the the first time I read it was the it was like a LibriVox, like public domain, you know, random people reading the book and it was compiled into one. And you had the weirdest readers. I think one person called uh Telemachus, it was Telemachus, which I actually prefer that pronunciation every time they said it. And Telemachus.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:02

Is Telemachus related to Paxao telemanus? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:06

Paxelemachus used a lot of Greek and Roman mythics in it. Well, the golds thought they were the best throughout history. Yeah. So yeah, um I I'd be down to watch Ubrother where our Dow. One of the greatest retellings of a of like of a classic, in my opinion. Is Troy Troy's part of the Odyssey, right?

SPEAKER_06 2:13:32

Troy is the battle because he's sailing home from the war with Troy from the battle.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:38

The Iliad, so yeah. Iliad and then Odyssey happens. So yeah, Troy could be like the pre-pre cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:45

Okay. Yeah, because pretty sure Achilles is really kind of not a lot in the Odyssey, from what I've heard, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:54

Yeah, yeah. It's one of the roles basically at the beginning of the I think they reference him, but gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 2:14:00

I think he's like he shows up as a ghost. Achilles as a ghost.

SPEAKER_08 2:14:05

There are some old uh old Odyssey movies. Yeah, old brother where art that was mentioned, but there was a 1997, I guess that's not too old, but 1997 mini-series that was made. So I'll have to check that one out, see if that one's worth watching. But yeah, some good media out there we can check out with it.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:26

But join us before the movie. Yeah. You know, if you haven't read it, join us with it. And then we can tear the movie apart. Yeah. Oh yeah. Exactly. So one thing we forgot to mention, just we want to say thank you to all those that follow and subscribe to us and listen to our podcast. We are very appreciative. We love the response that we get from the video Derek made on our social media. Um, we'd like more of that. So don't hesitate. Please reach out and respond. Please, if you're not subscribed, subscribe, follow us, go find us on Instagram, TikTok, whatever format you like the best.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:10

Yeah, give us any any sign that this video is appreciated because I believe YouTube is not pushing long foreign content right now. They are pushing more shorts. So we would love to have you put comments or do that hype button and like button and subscribe and ring that bell so you never miss a notification from us.

SPEAKER_08 2:15:27

Yeah, and let's, you know, this is meant to be a big discussion to get everyone involved and to dissect these books in a in a club environment where we can all have good conversations. And yeah, if we don't like something, we can discuss it and we like something, we can all enjoy it together.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:45

Yeah, and also join us on our bonus segment. Um, I haven't talked to you guys, but I was kind of gonna coin it our Big Rascals Writing Challenge. Rascals that was due every writing challenge. So we typically kind of keep it on theme. This will be our third time. The first time we did the alternate endings to Princess Bride, and then the second last time we did um our alien encounters, and so this time we are doing like a um a mythical story told from the perspective of woodland creatures. So a like folk tale-esque story, yeah, yeah. So yeah, join us on that. That'll be uh, you know, posted that as a bonus episode or completely different video. So if you're watching on YouTube.

SPEAKER_06 2:16:42

Yeah, yep, and give us pointers and you know, put snippets of how you would have written this writing prompt.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:47

Yeah, yeah, or like we have the invitation to do your own little short story, and then you can send it to us and we will we can read it in our segments.

SPEAKER_08 2:17:00

Read it, post it, you know, we can have uh some interaction and you know make kind of get more people to write, more people to create literature.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:10

Our the way you can reach us is our email. It's uh bigrascals.podcast at gmail.com. Um one thing we we forgot. I do feel like we need to come up with our writing prompt. So if they want to join us, that's right, we should mention it at the end of our episode.

SPEAKER_08 2:17:29

We should have uh the book assigner or book assigner. Uh do you want to have the book assigner do the assign the assign the writing prompt?

SPEAKER_06 2:17:38

Book picker. The one who selects the next book also selects the writing prompt.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:44

Yeah, so not what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:48

Oh man. But we we I guess we can figure that out together.

SPEAKER_06 2:17:52

Well with the Odyssey, we'll probably do something like uh something like a Greek myth or you know a singular hero doing a myth. Greek style myth with like a uh demigod style character.

SPEAKER_08 2:18:06

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_06 2:18:07

Yeah, something like that. Yeah. That's probably what we would do, make some kind of monomyth or something like that. Cool. Sick.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:14

Yeah, we'll uh we'll kind of like finalize the details on that and maybe post about it. Be ready for next time. So yeah. But anyway, you you got anything else to say? I don't think so. I think we've got rid of it all. So yeah, thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us. Yep. We're gonna try it. A little different outro here. We're gonna sing quotes that we like. So I'll start. Quotes up from the book, obviously. Um, I am that is who knows, my friend.

SPEAKER_08 2:18:55

Maybe the sword does have some magic. Personally, I think it's the warrior who wields it.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:01

Asma Deus.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:07

But until next time, keep reading, keep writing, and stay rascally.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:16

That wouldn't better be