Have You Seen?! The Movie Podcast

We Lit The Black Flame Candle So You Don’t Have To

• Season 1 • Episode 5

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A black flame candle, a July release, and a bedtime story that almost stayed too dark for Disney—this conversation unpacks how Hocus Pocus stumbled into theaters and soared into cult legend. We dig into the real craft behind the charm: practical sets built from the ground up, wire-flying and boom-arm “swoops,” eight-inch broom puppets for long shots, and a wall of trained cats to bring Thackeray Binks to life. With Bette Midler at full power, Sarah Jessica Parker haunting melodies, and Kathy Najimy’s offbeat warmth, the film dances between spooky and silly without losing heart.

We trace the path from the original, darker Halloween House concept to the studio’s family-friendly pivot, and why that mix of menace and musical theater still works. Doug Jones’s Billy Butcherson steals a segment as we break down his physical performance and the infamous live-moth gag, a grimy flourish that sells the bit in a single exhale. There’s rich trivia throughout: a near-cut of I Put a Spell on You that became the movie’s signature, Leonardo DiCaprio passing on Max for What’s Eating Gilbert Grape, and the broom “driving styles” inspired by how the actors actually drove. We also hit the Salem filming spots, the city hall choreography, the Gypsy nod, and the Gary and Penny Marshall cameo that doubles as a Hollywood time capsule.

By the end, we’re weighing first-watch ratings against the rewatch glow that turns a six into an eight once the details click. We talk legacy too—how Hocus Pocus fuels Disney’s Halloween stage shows and why its practical effects give it a timeless sheen next to early-90s CGI. If you love behind-the-scenes filmmaking, cult classics, Salem lore, and the alchemy of tone, this one’s a treat. Tap play, then tell us your favorite scene, your Sanderson alter ego, and whether you’d ever risk lighting the black flame candle. If you’re enjoying the show, follow, share with a friend, and drop a quick review to help more listeners find us.

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Angela:

By moon's bright glow and candles light, we twist this show from day to night. The black flame burns, the mic stands tall, where movie magic beckons all. A tale unseen, a spell begun, for Joe's first watch has just begun. And Dylan, keeper of the lore, has walked to these reels and knows the score. By Salem's charm and laughter's call, we twist this show till credits fall. So sip your brew and take your seat.

Dylan:

Hocus Pocus is rated PG but includes some mature references. Teenager Max moves to Salem, lights the Black Flame candle, and resurrects three 17th century witch sisters, Winifred, Mary, and Sarah. The help from his sister Danny, classmate Allison, and the cursed cat, Thackeray Binks, he must stop them from draining children's life forces before sunrise. Released July 1993, not on Halloween, directed by choreographer-turned filmmaker Kenny Ortega, starring Bet Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker, Kathy Najemy, Omri Katz, Thora Birch, and Vanessa Shaw. The movie began as Halloween House, a darker script conceived by screenwriter Mick Garris and producer David Kirschhner. Kirchner originally told it as a bedtime story for his daughters, then pitched it to Disney by inviting executives into a dark room filled with brooms, a vacuum, and 15 pounds of candy corn.

Joe:

I bet the scary part for some people was the candy corn. They're like brooms we can handle.

Dylan:

Man, like it would have smelled so sweet. Yeah. Like it would have it would have smelled like Halloween night. Yeah. So did you have anything that really surprised you about the movie?

Joe:

Yeah, I didn't expect Jason Martin. Yeah. Um you know, I didn't know, obviously, I didn't know what it was about, and all I kind of got was that it was about these witches, and uh I had no idea.

Dylan:

I just really uh Right, because it's super easy to be like, oh yeah, there's witches, they go wreak havoc and they die at some s sunrise, yeah. Whatever.

Joe:

The typical right.

Dylan:

Yeah, because that's definitely kind of more a cookie cutter interpretation of like witches in general.

Joe:

It was originally a Disney movie, right? Yeah. Okay. It's hard to tell these days because Disney just bought everything, so it's like offright it becomes a Disney movie whether you wanted it to or not, you know.

Dylan:

Right. Um, so actually when they were first pitching this movie, they were not into it at all. Um, because the original movie that was pitched was actually um a lot darker and followed um the sisters, the witches, a like a lot more than the kids. And so um they when they were like going through and like coming up with the ideas for the movie and stuff, like it got shot shot down a lot because of it being too scary and being a Disney movie, yeah. And um, you know, they wanted their movies more aimed towards families and stuff, and so um even like the movie that was shot initially was a lot darker, featuring the witches a lot more, and it actually got got cut and rearranged in the cutting room.

Joe:

Oh to so it didn't seem as dark, right? Or yeah. Huh.

Dylan:

Um so yeah, it it initially was a flop because it started or it released in July and not in in Halloween season in October.

Joe:

Yeah.

Dylan:

Kind of crazy.

Joe:

Yeah, it it's a pretty interesting time to release a movie like that. Right. Yeah.

Dylan:

The whole movie features, you know, Halloween night and all Halloween's eve, and you know, and you're like, yeah, let's we just celebrate the Fourth of July, let's go watch this movie.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah. Let's celebrate Halloween. Right.

Dylan:

So yeah, it wasn't really uh a big hit until until it um on home video. Yeah, right. Thank you.

Joe:

Which is probably VHS at the time.

Dylan:

What is that?

Joe:

Um it's for a whole different podcast. Maybe just an episode. We'll do a episode on media, physical media, and the evolution. The the evolution of physical media from beta to 4K.

Dylan:

Um what did you think about the the music scene kind of in the middle of it?

Joe:

It was cool. Yeah. Um you know, uh I know enough about the actresses that uh I'm old school, so I'm saying actresses. I don't know if that's I don't know what else you'd call them, but you did great. Um you know, not to jump into necessarily jump deep into people, but if you're gonna have a movie with with Bette Midler in it, uh you gotta take the opportunity for her to sing. Right. You know, right like how many movies can you think of that she's you know that she's sung on and and yeah acted, and she's just one of those uh actresses that that has the um just has all the element you know of a star.

Dylan:

She's and the the vocal range. Man, she she does amazing. Yeah. Um so another one of the movies that Bette Midler um starred in is Gypsy. And so Hocus Pocus actually gives a nod to Gypsy when Winifred gets up on stage and she says, My name's Winnie, what's yours? Uh-huh. That's a nod to Gypsy because when Gypsy gets first on stage, that's what she says. My name's Gypsy, what's yours? Oh yeah, nice. But yeah, Bet Midler, like she loves the film and um would say that it's what helped started the kind of the Halloween movie move. Yeah.

Joe:

Yeah. Huh.

Dylan:

So yeah, that's Winifred. And then you also have Sarah, so she's the flirty sister.

Joe:

Um which kind of threw me off because her name is Sarah. I was like, oh, I'm gonna remember this. I better remember this character's name, anybody's name I remember.

Dylan:

Right. And it's so funny. I didn't notice one of the scenes in the dance hall when he like or Wither Fred like pulls her away from from kissing one of the boys there. That was funny. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, um Sarah Jac Sarah Jessica Parker um is actually distantly related to uh Esther Elwell, which is an accused Salem era witch.

Joe:

Oh so she probably embraced the rule. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's been been on so many things. Um and you know, I've seen I grew up seeing her on multiple things, you know, yeah TV shows and whatnot. So yeah, she's she's great.

Dylan:

So then the last sister is Mary, so she's the smell tracking sister. We kept referring to her as the dog. Yeah. Yeah, but so Rosie O'Donnell um actually declined that role um because she didn't want to play a fat mean witch and be cruel to children. Um you also have Max, which I believed that.

Joe:

Are you okay? She just plays one in real life. Sorry, sorry, Rosie. That's delicate cut, but I just had to say it.

Dylan:

I'll leave it in. Okay. So yeah, um Amri Katz played Max, and uh, if I remember correctly, this is actually one of the first movies that he's been in. Um Thora Birch is Danny and Vanessa Shaw as Allison. Um Sean Murray uh plays the human Thackeray Binks, and Jason Marsden is actually the voice of Thackeray Binks.

Joe:

Yeah. Um my wife and I were just like I I just said NCIS. Because I couldn't I couldn't even think of you know his character's name. And uh but in in NCIS, but it was like it's like oh that's him, you know, and yeah, and then you said Jason Marston. I'm like, oh well he's Eddie Monster from the New Monsters, and and that that's all I can remember him from. Yeah. Um I mean not that to me that's to me that was his role, and I know like he was in the goofy movie, right? He's done all kinds of other, you know, other roles, but to me, like um it's kind of like most people know Sylvester Stallone from Rocky, right? You know, Jason Martin to me was Eddie Munster, you know.

Dylan:

But yeah, um the reason that they had Jason Marsden do the voice of it is that they didn't think that Murray had a uh they thought that his voice was too modern to play a 300-year-old cat.

Joe:

Oh so was it was it um was he doing uh English accent but it sounded too modern, or was it uh an American accent and it's sounded too?

Dylan:

Yeah, it was it was an English accent and they thought it was just too modern. Yeah. Like, you know, your vocal inflections. Right, you know, you can't, you know, stuff that you can't really help, just the way you talk. Yeah. And so um Leonardo DiCaprio was initially offered the role to play Max. Oh would have been a such a different movie, wouldn't it? Yeah, um, the reason he turned it down, and they actually offered him a lot of money to do it, yeah. But um, he was actually already um in production of What's Eating Gilbert Grape.

Joe:

Okay.

Dylan:

So yeah, yeah. So yeah. Um, but yeah, I don't know how that how the movie would have been with with DiCaprio.

Joe:

I don't know, it just Yeah, it's hard to say. Like I'm trying to think of so this was in '93. Um Gilbert Grape. Because it was before a lot of stuff. So he like I think the biggest thing he had done was growing pains from that point. Yeah.

Dylan:

And then Gilbert Grape was what like kind of threw him out into you know, so it's like Yeah, because I I thought Gilbert Grape was what kind of rocketed him.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah, just looking at at his roles and how how they kind of went up, and he was not, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio. Right. So yeah, it just would have been different. And who knows if this would have made him, you know, in a different way.

Dylan:

Right, right. It could have changed the whole trajectory of his career. Yeah. Um, so Billy Butcherson, so played by Doug Jones, um, is the zombie and ex-boyfriend um who uh coughed up real moths. Oh, really? Oh yeah, we'll get into that a little later.

Joe:

All right, Doug. Um so yeah. Um he's he's been on a lot of like yeah, so I I know Doug Jones from a lot of different movies. Um, kind of like Andy Circus. He's Andy Circus is one of those actors who he played Gollum. Um he could and he also played King Kong. So he could act with his body, yeah, and act with his emotions. And um Doug Jones is one of those those character actors that people go to just for they'll go to him just for his his the way he can contort his body, the way he can um, you know, just mime things and act without speaking. Um you know, I know him from Hellboy. Uh he played Ape Ape Sapien in in Hellboy. So the minute he popped out, I was like, that's Doug Jones.

Dylan:

That's just saw his face, and that's just yeah, I heard you saying something down there to your wife, but I couldn't I couldn't make it out.

Joe:

Yeah, we're Hellboy fans. Um the movies, yeah, and we've watched them over and over and just so she knew who Ape Sapien was. That's great.

Dylan:

So So for Kenny Ortega's vision of the movie, um coming from choreography, um, he blended like broad comedy and music. I put a spell on you, um, and like big elaborate practical effects. And I know this is something that I've harped on like every episode, but I love practical effects. Yeah, it just sells it, it really does. Um so like the production um built the Sanderson Cottage and the graveyard on a soundstage. Um everything from the moving floorboards to candles lighting was done physically rather than CGI. Like, could you imagine like standing up on that on those floorboards when it starts just rattling underneath you? Yeah, and it's not like they were moving a little bit. I mean, they were moving like several inches.

Joe:

Yeah, you know, and in '93, uh you know, CG's still in its infancy. Um and I noted that it was Rhythm and Hughes that did the production on the post-production on that. But yeah, still in its infancy, still, you know, people got kind of like would use them a lot, but it it was yeah, it I I like the way they pulled it off here. It wasn't I I feel like yeah, it wasn't cheesy or anything.

Dylan:

Yeah. So then also the um the cemetery finale scene was also staged on a giant set, and so they had um green green lighting and fog all around too to give it that color pop.

Joe:

Nice.

Dylan:

Um for the flying witches, um the actresses were rigged to wires and pulled by crew. Um so Sarah Sarah Jessica Parker, she loved flying. Um, she sometimes um like sometimes the rig would fail and she would get like stuck mid-air. And so um often she would have a like a New York Times in the back of her corset. Yeah, and so she would pull it out and just start reading it while just dangling midair until they got her out. Yeah.

Joe:

I love uh later on when um um I'm trying to remember the character's name, oh, Mary, uh switches to a vacuum. Yeah.

Dylan:

Um for the for the flying scenes too, when um so they like for the big wide shots, they were in the wire harness. And then for the tight close-up shots, um oh, I don't remember what it's called now, but it was like a big um like a big boom arm that they were on, and so they had the camera on one end of it to where it couldn't see any of the boom arm, but everything above it um was just the actresses and stuff. Yeah, and so that gave them like they still could rotate like the end of the boom arm and each piece individually, so they still had like 360 degrees of motion, whatever they wanted to film. And so so yeah, that's how they got those close-up like swooping scenes. And so um for the shots where they were like far away silhouettes or um like I think of the moment, like when the roof of the house explodes and they go flying out. Um, so those are still real, they're not CGI. Um they're there, they were puppets made by a local company there. And so that way when they were doing kind of the faraway shots of the sisters flying, they they didn't need to like you know use CGI or anything like that to get that long distance shot. They were just like and these puppets are only eight inches tall or so, like, and they were strapped to the broom and stuff, yeah. And so they had a rod um going into the top of the head to like be able to like turn them, make them look around, and um they still had like all the motion that the actual actresses would have had on the broom.

Joe:

So you're saying like they would be the actresses would be there and then it would turn into puppets?

Dylan:

Right. Okay, right. So like for that scene, they'll have like the explosion and then um uh the I don't know if they would like composite the film or or what, but so then that would be the shot of the puppets coming out of it. Oh yeah, nice for the for all the cats, all the little Binxes. Um they to to film the Binx's scenes, yeah, um, the crew actually used multiple live cats. Oh um, so each cat was trained for a single trick. Nice. And so uh Vanessa Shaw um recalls a literal wall of cats behind the set with different animals that were prepared to walk, pounce, sleep, or swipe. Nice. So yeah, for each of the kind of the different stuff, they would just have like a different cat stand in.

Joe:

Yeah. Yeah, one of my favorite uh parts of Universal is is going to that animal show where you can see, you know, all the different animals with all the different tricks and things like that. And it's really, you know, the whole term of of herding cats, you know, it's it's it's a hard thing to do. So I gotta give it to all the all the people who worked on the movie with the cats because they're they could be impossible sometimes.

Dylan:

Yeah. Um so going back to Doug Jones as Billy, yeah, um, he had real moths and dust in his mouth. And so they used a dental dam made out of um like a plastic or a latex, excuse me. Um it was made out of the latex, and the moths and dust were placed by tweezers. Oh and he had to just hold them in his mouth while filming it. Yeah. Um and so he said he would say that as he was sitting there waiting for for them to shoot the scene, he could feel the moths fluttering in his mouth. Oh, and so uh that just sounds horrible. It does. So um, so on the original scene that they filmed of that, they had a light break. Oh, and so dur like during the take, and so then they had to like reset and reshoot that scene. So not only did he have to do it the first time, but then they had to redo it because of that.

Joe:

Oh man.

Dylan:

That's oh but yeah, I mean, it definitely sells that shot though when he when he cuts open the stitches holding his mouth closed, and you see the the puff of dust in the moths. Yeah.

Joe:

Like it is definitely a surprise. Yeah.

Jennifer:

Feeling tired, wrinkled, perhaps a bit too mortal. Fear not, Dearies. The Sanderson Sisters Youth Serum is back for another enchanting season. Brewed fresh in Salem with our patented blend of moonlight, mystery, and um one or two secret ingredients we can't legally mention. One sip, and you'll feel centuries younger. Side effects may include spontaneous keggling or turning your vacuum into a personal transport device.

unknown:

Shh.

Jennifer:

And remember, it's all just a bunch of focus. Available now wherever magical potions are questionably sold. And please, for your own safety, don't light the black flame candle. Foolish mortals.

Dylan:

Did you have a specific like favorite scene you can think of out of the whole whole movie?

Joe:

Other than any time they showed Binks because he looks like my cat. Let me think.

Dylan:

Okay, so um I think one of my favorites is probably when Max lights the black flame candle and then the the shack around them like starts to like wake up.

Joe:

Oh, okay.

Dylan:

Like I love seeing like all just all the practical effects. Yeah. Um another good one is when the witches sing I put a spell on you at the town hall. Um and they're like you can see there the choreography of them dancing, and you can they um show like shots of like middler's like shoes and stuff. Yeah. And so the striped socks that she wears is actually inspired by the wicked witches socks from Wizard of Oz.

Joe:

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, and I I feel like in that in that choreography and everything, it still carries the character's personality through. Yeah. Um, I think off the top of my head, just a quirky um scene for me was when they're trying to get the cops help. Oh, yeah. And he's so nonchalant about it, like because it's the first time, I'm thinking, oh, was does this happen all the time and he just doesn't care? Right. You know, like oh, they got out again, you know, or you know, somebody lit the candle again. Right.

Dylan:

I mean, because like with all of that being there, like that has to happen. Like, you know, prank calls like that would have to happen like every Halloween. Yeah. They're like, oh, we lit the black flame candle.

Joe:

Right.

Dylan:

Yeah, and then and then the the girl walks out and gets onto the bike behind him, and they're laughing that he's not a real cop. Yeah. Another one that like really stands out to me is during the the final cemetery showdown with the with the salt, when Alison like shakes the salt into her hand and throws it up. Yeah. And and Sarah is like swooping towards her, hits the salt, and does a complete backflip.

Joe:

Oh, yeah.

Dylan:

Um to do that, she had to like throw her body backwards to get it to roll like that. Nice.

Joe:

And yeah, I kind of picked up that when um what's the character's name? But was it Vanessa, the actress?

Dylan:

Vanessa Shaw. Yeah.

Joe:

Yeah. Um, at the like she runs out of salt, but she has a little bit and she throws it behind her back. Did you notice that? Yeah, so it was like good luck. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And then the the um, you know, the master and and uh, you know, Medusa. Yeah. Um that was for me was one of those odd, odd kind of throw-in things, just because like I don't know if you know um Gary and Penny Marshall, but Gary Marshall produced tons of TV shows.

Dylan:

Yeah.

Joe:

And Penny Marshall uh was on Laverne and Shirley, and she went on to I think she directed Big and a lot of other uh huge films, yeah. And she went from TV actress to huge film director, and so like they're like Hollywood royalty, and like so to have this like little part in there, it was it was hilarious just to see them together, yeah.

Dylan:

And it's so funny too that like in the movie they play a couple, they play husband and wife, right? But in real life, they're siblings, yeah. Uh-huh. Like, yeah, so apparently like the original scripting for that had a kiss scene in there for those characters. And so then when they found out that it was going to be um that it was going to be siblings, they're like, Yeah, we can't have that. Yeah, yeah, I can't do that. So did you notice how um each of the witches riding her broomstick actually reflects her character?

Joe:

Was it the way they rode them or was it their broomstick?

Dylan:

So it's the way that they rode them. Oh, okay. Okay, so Winnie is like she was very vigorous with her flying. She's very on the nose. While like Mary is very guarded, and Sarah is just all out crazy and throws caution to the wind with it. Yeah. Um, so the way that they actually decided to have them fly like the way that they do, is that um one of the one of the producers um actually did a ride along with each of the actresses to see how they drive. So the way that they fly their brooms is how they drove in real life.

Joe:

That's cool.

Dylan:

Yeah.

Joe:

That's an extra um. Extra time put in to kind of get you know get the characters down.

Dylan:

Right. I mean, and it's care like that that goes into the filming and you know, planning the characters and stuff. That's what sells it.

Joe:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dylan:

Um so yeah, parts of the movie was filmed in Salem. So like the original um, you know, 300 years ago like the opening scene.

Joe:

Uh-huh.

Dylan:

Um that that is um like the original Salem that they filmed in. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then the big, the big house that Allison lives in that the the um what would you call it? Like the old you know, curly haired wigs. Uh-huh. Um, but so all the people dressed up in like Victorian era. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. That's what it's called. Yeah. Um, all the people dressed up in Victorian era, that that big white house that they stand in looking all, that's in Salem. Oh. And so um people would like go to Salem during Halloween to see that house. Oh. Because they wanted it to see all see it all done up. And they were very disappointed because the whoever had that, it's part of a museum.

Joe:

Okay.

Dylan:

And the museum didn't dress it up for Halloween. So I guess for one of the anniversaries of the movie, they redid the front of the house exactly like it was in the movie. Oh, cool. So yeah, just a nice nod there. Yeah. Well, another thing that I love is that um Sarah, um, when she sings, like, or well, when all of them sing, yeah, um, but it's their actual voice. They didn't have another another person like dub in for the singing part. Yeah. It's their actual singing voice.

Joe:

Yeah, I would I would hope so. Yeah.

Dylan:

Well, because that that happens quite a bit.

Joe:

Oh, yeah, I know that. So wait till we get to West Side's story.

Dylan:

But yeah, so um, so I just I honestly just assumed that it was somebody else like singing, singing for them. I mean, Bet Medler is like her voice is kind of so iconic, you can't, you know, and she sings anyways. But yeah, so so Sarah, when she sings, so like every time she sings in the movie, I'm like, yes, it's good.

Joe:

No, yeah, it's like Bet Medler, uh, you know, if if you had like, I don't know, Madonna or Prince or something in a movie, and you didn't actually have them sing right in the world. Right. Is there a reason they're here? Right. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

Dylan:

And so like with the singing and stuff, also like the iconic song of the whole movie, um, I put a spell on you, almost didn't make the cut. Wow. Why? Um, so David Kirshner didn't think that a song would fit the tone of the movie. And so um he was trying to get it cut, and it obviously got ended up getting left in and turned into the one of the most legendary scenes you know in the movie. Yeah. And so um Kitchener later on actually admits just how wrong he was like with wanting to cut that.

Joe:

Yeah. I mean, you know, it did strike me as like because they play off of the original song, I put a spell on you.

Dylan:

Which they they actually started with that um first time I noticed it in the movie is that like while like they're trying to find the witches like in the in the uh um city hall there, yeah. Um that they're playing I put a spell on you, like in the background.

Joe:

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. And so like the way they kind of um they basically not remixed it, but they they you know kind of did a redo and in their own spin. And so it starts with the original, and you kind of get familiar with it, and then all of a sudden they break into their own thing, and that was cool. Like, that's what made it to me like um you know, a better version, right?

Dylan:

So, and then um spoilers for the second movie, but so um in Hocus Pocus 2 that came out a couple years ago, um, their big song in that one was kind of the same scenario, is that there is a uh a Halloween um festival going on. And so um they like during the festival, the witches get there and they're hunting for the main characters in it. And so in that in that movie, the main song is one way or another. Oh and same thing, they put their own spin on it, yeah, and it's so good. Nice. So, Joe, as a first-time viewer, how many spell books out of ten would you rate this?

Joe:

Hmm. Like, would I rather go watch Quidditch instead?

Dylan:

The wrong franchise.

Joe:

Or uh what kind of pizza would it be?

Dylan:

Man, um I think for me, like a big thing of what keeps me coming back every year to watch it, and like in fairness, I I first saw it probably five or six years ago. Yeah um but like I've watched it probably once a season once you know, once a Halloween season since. And like something I just love about like the overall movie and the overall feel of it is that it really dips in and out of like kind of the extra spooky into the comedy, and yeah, it just like goes back and forth so well. Yeah, and like you you don't really know, you know, for your first watch, like what you're going to get coming up next.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah, and you have to appreciate like even some of the actors that that are in it and you know the the writing and things like that.

Dylan:

Right, right. Because like the the witches overall are hilarious, yeah. And um, like Bat Medler, she was like she um what's it called when they like riff their lines? Oh, ad-libbed. Um yeah, she ad-libbed a lot of her like old timey swears. Oh and because she she felt like what they had like in the movie currently wasn't it wasn't authentic to what that character would actually say. Oh and so same thing with Billy is when he first um cuts open his mouth, yeah, he his script doesn't have him calling her a witch. Oh it's another word that rhymes with that, yeah, yeah. But he didn't think that that would be um first off, he didn't want to be calling Bet Midler or any of those ladies. Right, yeah. And um, and then also they felt like it just didn't fit the the time of it.

Joe:

I think it I think uh for me it'd be a six. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean I'd watch it again. I definitely would, yeah. Cause I think the first time viewing, I'm trying to there's a lot of characters. You're taking everything out what's going on, uh, you know, why is this happening? Why why was this built up? Um you know, with with the first section of kids, um I was thrown off because like the description said, some kids conjure up three witches from the past, and then it jumps into this scenario of like, oh, these kids are already, you know, in this situation. Like, what what's what's happening? Yeah, you know. So yeah, I was definitely thrown off by some of that, but and then oh, the other thing that I was thrown off by too was that I thought um Max, he's the main character, right? I thought he was gonna make friends. Yeah, I thought he was making friends when he met Ice and the other guy, and I was like, oh, cool, he you know, he's making friends, and I was like, Oh, great, you know, so funny, yeah.

Dylan:

So yeah, D Flynn got Tweedledee and Tweedledum on that one. Yeah, yeah.

Joe:

Well, that's what I said, like um uh Bet Miller's character um reminded me of of the uh um Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland. Yeah, and her makeup and her hair and everything, and so it's like that's just that's just even more confirmation for me that Tweedled Tweedled and Tweedled were there.

Dylan:

Yeah. Shaving ice in the back of your head, yeah. Um I think for me on a Dave's pizza scale, yeah, I I would rate it an eight. Yeah, yeah. I like it. I like it. And like I said, I I guess I have a fondness for it because I keep coming back to it. But uh why do you why did you keep saying Dave's pizza though for your ratings?

Joe:

Because Dave's pizza is um is Barstool sports, and uh Dave is the guy who who does the like he'll go to a pizza place and and rate the pizza and he'll say he'll say, you know, best score is ten, uh the rule is one bite, and then he takes a bite out of the pizza, and then he'll say, like, you know, he'll he'll rate the flop or whether it sags or not, you know. Oh funny. Yeah, so he's yeah, he's he's the guy.

Dylan:

He's known for giving pizza eights.

Joe:

Yeah. Not always, no, like that's a it's a far cry to to give a a pizza, like he'll he'll be pretty brutal on some pizza. Yeah, yeah. At least he's honest about it. Yeah, and people the funny thing is people will will um will contact him and say, hey, you gotta rate this place and it's the best. Oh yeah, yeah, it's better than this place that you rated, blah, blah, blah. And then so he'll go there impartial and you know, rate it and and just, you know, and sometimes it's terrible. It's just terrible. Yeah.

Dylan:

So that's what um when my when my dad helped my sister move cross country um this summer, I guess they stopped somewhere that Dave tried their pizza. Okay. And so he was telling me about it, and I was like, what? I didn't get it at the time. Yeah. How do you feel like hocus pocus holds up today?

Joe:

Uh I think it holds up. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, you know, all in all, it's a Disney movie, and I think like they're only gonna push, or I would say uh there was a certain point, and this was where they were at the time, yeah, where they were they would only push the rating so far. Right. And um, but they wouldn't they they had a bar, you know, and they set it there. And so even if it was a TV movie or a big release, they they always wanted to give their best. Yeah. And so I feel like that's why even it being a classic Disney movie, it's kind of timeless because um even though you even though I hadn't seen it, it's part of like Halloween culture and Halloween, you know, like it's just you know, you know the characters without knowing why. Right.

Dylan:

Like with knowing the characters and being you know such a big part of Halloween culture, like that's what Disney's um Halloween party that they do every year is they have a Sanderson Sisters stage show that they do there in front of the castle. Nice, and so um they they sing this song on the stage show, and then with the uh call and response of the actual spell part that the the crowd calls back to the sisters, um they have the big words like projected up on the castle for people to like read it to call back.

Joe:

Yeah. So um so of the characters Yeah, Winnie, Sarah, um and Mary, yeah.

Dylan:

So who would you say you're more like um I would say I probably most like Winifred. Okay. Um kind of the the lead witch um and kind of the the ring the ringleader of the the band of monkeys. So, you know, and not that not that she would be or I, you know, would be one for the dramatics. Yeah. But if we were it's on par. Yeah.

Joe:

Well, at least you didn't choose the fat mean witch. Yeah, I think like I didn't get that from Mary, but I'd probably be a Mary. Um I didn't get you know, I I don't know if the role had changed uh or would she changed it?

Dylan:

Yeah, it could have because um I think with with that role, um, when Kathy took that role, I think some stuff did get changed about it.

Joe:

Yeah. Cause she definitely didn't seem that way. She seemed kinder, she seemed more innocent, kind of the um the Ray kind of, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Dylan:

So go check out the Ghostbusters episode. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I definitely see Mary for you. Well, the black flame candle's out, but our next adventure is just getting started. From witches and spells to booby traps and buried gold, the Goonies are up next.

Joe:

Well, thank you guys for joining us for this spooky premiere. Make sure that you like, subscribe, go on our Patreon, even though we don't have one.

Dylan:

If we had a Patreon, we'd send you there.

Joe:

And go to all the socials and like us and uh and and follow us.

Dylan:

Yeah, been trying to put more stuff out on Instagram and stuff, so so go join some mid midweek polls and and uh other hocus pocus on there. Yeah, let people know. Well, until next time, don't light any mysterious candles unless you want three witches crashing your party.