Why I Left Vocational Ministry (And Found REAL Ministry) | Dustin Kleinschmidt

A former pastor, church planter, and author breaks down why the wilderness isn't a detour from the Christian life — it IS the Christian life. After walking through identity collapse, the silence of God, and the slow road to restoration, Dustin Kleinschmidt is now doing more actual ministry OUTSIDE vocational ministry than he ever did inside it. An honest voice for the honest Christian! Dustin is an author, coach, worship songwriter, and the writer behind "The Wilderness Way: Finding Freedom in Life's Fractures." His mission is to help believers stop pretending they have it figured out and start trusting God in the fractures — where real faithfulness is forged.

He Explains:

1. Why your identity gets wrapped up in significance (not just ministry) — and how to spot it.
2. How the Western church traded "go and be" for "come and see" — and what we lose when belonging comes after believing.
3. Why lament is faith's most faithful expression (and why Jesus wept at Lazarus' tomb even though He knew the ending).
4. 3 tips for Christians standing at a crossroads who feel stuck in the forest with no clear path forward.

⏱️ CHAPTERS
00:00 – Intro: Meet Dustin Kleinschmidt
02:52 – The Panera Sip Club & Dustin's booth
04:23 – Catching up: The Wilderness Way book study & new worship album
06:54 – Club volleyball, parenting, and the money grab
09:53 – Why this book hit different (Chase's reaction)
12:10 – Doing more ministry OUTSIDE vocational ministry
17:05 – Identity, significance, and the next book Dustin is writing
19:34 – Chase opens up: navigating his own deconstruction
23:11 – "Go and be" vs. "Come and see": rethinking how the church operates
26:50 – The long game: how a volleyball team led someone to Jesus
30:37 – Can the Western church actually change?
33:54 – Theology, philosophy, and practice: what's actually negotiable
38:30 – Reimagining church buildings as community spaces
42:39 – Christian karaoke and why all kinds of churches are needed
49:34 – Chase's home church dissolved: processing the grief
53:23 – Lament as faith's most faithful expression
59:48 – Jesus at Lazarus' tomb: He didn't shortcut the grief
1:05:34 – Where were you when I created? God's tenderness in our temper tantrums
1:08:30 – Why transparency with God changes everything
1:12:05 – Affection languages: how YOU uniquely connect with God
1:19:56 – 3 steps for Christians stuck in the forest of a big decision
1:28:38 – What makes Dustin smile (5 words)
1:29:00 – Where to find Dustin's book, album & coaching

🎵 Stream Dustin's new worship album "In Days" on Spotify & Apple Music
📖 Grab "The Wilderness Way" on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Way-Finding-Freedom-Fractures/dp/B0FWZBVJTX
🌐 Work with Dustin: www.dustinkleinschmidt.com

Follow The Road to Worship:
Website: https://roadtoworship.org
YouTube -    / @roadtoworship  
Listen on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4I44Jkv...

Follow Chase:
Follow Chase on Instagram -   / chase1avery  
Learn more about Chase: https://chaseavery.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Well, hello everybody. Welcome back to The Road to Worship. My name is Chase, and today's conversation uh is one that I've been looking forward to for quite a while. I'm really excited to uh bring my guest on today. Today we get to sit down with Dustin Kleinschmidt. Let me have I got that right. There we go. Dustin spent his years in vocational ministry, planting churches, leading teams, and walking through with walking with people, in all honesty, with seasons that most of us would rather avoid. And out of a season of a lot of trial and struggle in his personal life, he wrote a book called The Wilderness Way Finding Freedom in Life's Fractures. And guys, I gotta tell you, the kind of this isn't the kind of Christian book that he's written to kind of he's like pretended to figure it out. I know we've all read a book that's like that before. This isn't that, guys. Uh Dustin doesn't pretend. He writes it like it is, and he's and he doesn't even claim to be an expert in this area. This is just a guy trying to figure it out. And that's honestly what we're all trying to do, right? We're all trying to just figure out this life together, and he's written an amazing uh book that walks through his own journey. I've I've I just finished reading it and I'm like, man, this feels like a guy I've met and I've known for years. Like, this is just how he is, and he's he's amazing at it. The whole premise of this book is that the wilderness isn't a detour from the Christian life, but it is the Christian life, and that's been so comforting to read. What I love about Dustin's voice is it's an honest way uh to look uh at a it's an honest way to look at how the Christian life uh is uh and what it isn't. He talks about identity collapse, he talks about the silence of God, talks about vulnerability, about a long hidden addiction, and the night his wife found out. It's a very vulnerable thing to talk about, and the slow road to restoration that followed. He weaves in stories about his friends who've experienced unimaginable grief, deepening the understanding of walking with Christ, as we all need, and who learned that scars aren't proof of failure, but they're proof of faithfulness. So today, guys, we're gonna dig into all of it. The wilderness is a terrain instead of a detour, and it's one that we're all walking, and what it means to be a kingdom carrier instead of what it means to just be a wilderness survivor, and why faithfulness is the only metric that matters. If you've ever felt like you were doing anything right and you still ended up in the desert, this conversation is for you guys. So, ladies and gentlemen, an author, leader, disciple, father, husband, and Panera Bread's biggest fan, Dustin Kleinschmidt, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Chase, thanks for having me. That was the best intro ever. Oh my goodness. Especially the the Panera part, man, Sip Club. You get like all you can drink coffee for I don't know, a couple hundred bucks, 150 bucks a year or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

I I never knew, man. I've been to Panera maybe three, four times in my life, and so it's nice to meet somebody who's an actual who's an actual ongoing, somebody who has his own booth, is what I heard.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yes, yes, I do. Well, it's funny. There's a lady who is I see her hair there every once in a while, and uh a couple weeks ago I walked in and where I normally sit, she was sitting, and as soon as she saw me, she's like, Oh, I can move. I'm like, no, no, no, it's okay. Like it's this isn't church.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

I don't have a specific queue that I have to be in. You should we should petition to get a plaque for you. We just got Dustin's booth. Yeah, I mean we just do that, so it's possible. You know, you're there long ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, I think we'd have to have to move a lot more books and uh to make that a reasonable suggestion.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah. Maybe we just maybe we like plant, we plant like an event where you have to save somebody. Like, I'll fly out to you and like we'll stage, we'll stage an event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is some sort of a rescue of some sort. We'll stage something. Oh, very much so.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, there's a stage something minor, just talking about it in a public platform, which is a really no right.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

We'll stage an argument. How about that? We'll stage an argument. There we go. We're getting heated, it's verbal, nothing physical. Um, and and you just come in and save the day. You're like, get behind thee, Satan, you know, and then and then the plaque.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah. There we go. We can get a plaque on the on the desk.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Well, Dustin, it's an absolute pleasure to have you, man. Uh no, it's been a few weeks since we last chatted, but um, I'm so excited to dig in, just dig into the story you have to share and the lessons you've learned. Um, how have you been? With uh you got a lot of stuff happening, you got a lot of stuff you're writing and you're making, and catch us up on life, man. What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, it's been it's been a really uh, you know, you and I were talking offline before we started, just about the busyness of the season. And it has been um, you know, the last month or so has been um just cluttered, just a lot of things going on. Um, I've been, you know, obviously continuing to promote the book and talk about the book and share about the book in different environments. And um I'm leading a guy's Bible study through the book, which has been really cool because I wrote a uh study guide to go along with it, kind of as a companion to the book and and a way to kind of like let's create some conversation around it. Um and so I've been leading a guy's group through that, through the church that we're part of, and it's been really cool to see them engage it and then also just kind of learn you know some of the gaps in what I wrote. Like, because you you know, you can never cross every T and dot every I. You're just kind of sharing your story. And so that's been really cool to hear guys ask questions and to be able to kind of revisit things and and you know, re-dive into the scripture again with that. So that's been a really cool thing. Um, I'm sure we'll talk more about it, but I've been uh the last year, um, you know, kind of crossing over with the release of the book, I've been working on a worship album that's kind of a companion. Um, you know, it started with kind of revisiting old songs I had written that had similar themes. It turned out I had been writing worship songs even 20 years ago that had this wilderness theme kind of baked into them. And so that kind of led me on a well, maybe I maybe there's something here. And so I revitalized some songs, made them sound a little less 1996 and a little more, yeah, a little more, yeah, a little a little more you know, 2020s, a little less grungy, probably. Yeah, um, and so yeah, so I rewrote some rewrote some of those, re-recorded, and then wrote a handful of new songs. And so I've been I've been finishing the mixing and mastering of all of that, which is was heavier than I thought it was gonna be. It just took a lot to kind of get everything done. Um, but really excited about that. That's coming out at the end of May. And um yeah, and then just doing the coaching and consulting, and it's been a busy season, but really, really good. In the midst of all of it, my 14-year-old daughter is trying out for a club volleyball team, so that's a whole that's awesome. Like, if if you can avoid your kids playing club sports, do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Um first fit of the device.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

No, I hear that though, because I have a I have a buddy, he's my co-well, he's buddy, he's my he's my co-worship leader. Um, he is my buddy, but he's more than that. Um his daughter, he's she's about to graduate, but she was in club volleyball for all of high school, and man, the schedules that he had of flying out to different states to go compete and just in the money think and like all of it. It's just oh yeah, it's a lot. Now it's great for the it's great for the child, but man, it is once the parents if there's a reason.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

I told our daughter, I said, Look, I love you. We don't do club volleyball just because it's fun. Like we do club volleyball if you're trying to get towards college volleyball. And so so this is gonna be her first season, hopefully playing clubs. She's got to do tryouts at like six different clubs, and so I'm driving all over the Dallas area and then sitting there with my AirPods in watching tryouts.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

There you go. It's a stressful time, too. I mean, especially if you if you're not already, but if you become the how do I say it nicely, the enthusiastically overinvested parent. That's like that's just I am not that guy.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Um I have uh ethical tensions about the whole club sports thing. If if I'm honest, I actually texted a friend of ours. Uh his daughter plays club too. I texted him when I got home. We had a tryout Monday, and I got home and I said, Hey, is it weird that I'm really annoyed by this whole thing? He goes, No, no, no. You're that's it is a ginormous money grab, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

It's it's the the I I I appreciate that the parents are invested in their child's success, but when it's the it's the slurs at the ref, you know, like there's a line, there's a line that's crossed, and even in like in regular high school sports, when I was when I was playing basketball and volleyball, like that happened all the time. And we were in a private Christian school. Like that's like it's like all morals go out the window because we need to see this child win a game.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or complaining to coaches and stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, so I I enjoy her being competitive. She's a great teammate, she works really hard. Uh, that part's all really fun. Some of the economic and political sides of it with you know, the teams and the, you know, I could live without it. But it, you know, again, like we're helping her chase her dream, and that's that's that's fun.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Well, cheers to your daughter. I hope that she gets accepted into the team that she wants. Um it's a that's a core memory that can be built doing that kind of team sports. It's I find it invaluable, and I still even keep in touch with my coach to this day. So, like, you just even having all of that is is amazing. So props to her. Yeah, um I want to dig into this book. Um, I I read it a few days ago, and and I have to be honest, and I think I think my audience knows this at this point. I don't like reading like at all. Um, I don't like I feel unproductive, which is funny because you're sitting down to learn something, but it's because I'm sitting down and not doing anything, even if I'm going on a walk or if I'm hanging out with my dog, like I just don't like it. Um, but man, this this book took me through a journey. There's very few books that uh captivate me as as this one did. Um I I I I'm a slow reader too. I finished this all in one go. This is a very impressive book, and I'm very grateful that you shared it with me. Um your story of it's almost your you're we're watching your walk with God evolve past what the typical life of a Christian looks like. At least from the past kind of 20 years or so, we we see like, hey, if you really love God, you're gonna work for the church and you're going to um uh kind of do all these things that our community of Christi of Christians would kind of expect from you. And you went completely against the grain and you are still but you're still serving God in such amazing ways. And I want to walk through some of these things. Um but but before we do that, I want to know how has your faith or your view of faith and walking with Christ evolved in your everyday life as your kind of everyday job is no longer like actively being employed by uh Christian church as because that's kind of how you've been. There's there's a lot of um I don't blanket on the word, but there's there's this expectation when you're working with the church that oh, like this person's faith is just is super strong, or they're just steadfast all the time because they're working for the church and their faith must be super strong because that's what they do every day. And now moving away from that, there's gotta be some sort of evolution that kind of goes through with your faith as now what you're doing. Can you walk us through kind of how that looks now?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for that description of kind of the book because what you're describing really is what I was hoping the book would become, which would be this kind of unfolding of my journey, especially the last handful of years, um, and and how it isn't, like how how it does color outside the lines a little bit of what maybe we would expect to hear in a story about you know, walking with Jesus or Christianity or all those kinds of things, and specifically around ministry. Um, to answer your question, so I think that um it has evolved dramatically. Um, I ironically, I would say um kind of both directions. One, I have found that I'm doing more actual ministry now that I'm no longer in vocational ministry than I was doing when I was in ministry. I'm just not being compensated for it.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

So welcome to being worshiping.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

That's exactly what you're doing. Yeah, I mean it's exactly. It's the same thing. But in terms of like um the ability, and some of this I don't think is is it's not like and the because the church did or whatever. It's like some of it's me. Um, like I find myself now, like, for example, last night went out to dinner with a friend of mine um who lives in our neighborhood, known him for a while, Christian, going through a hard divorce. Um, and we just happened to sync up, and it was like, hey, I got a Tuesday night open, my daughter's not doing a club tryout. Um and so we just went and grabbed some pizza and talked and caught up. And having the margin for those things that are more intentional, and then being able to be fully present there is I'm finding easier or has been easier in this season than it was when I was leading in the church or leading a church by nature of just the amount of things that you need to do and the obligations you have to the specific congregation that you're leading and to the leaders you're leading. Again, not a bad thing, it's just a reality. So my friend doesn't go, you know, I obviously he's not part of a church that I'm in, he's part of a different church, but just having that margin to be more present. Um, you know, we've talked a little bit about my daughter's volleyball thing, but like in the last two years before she started the club thing, she was in a rec league, and I was helping coach it, and because I had the space, and I was kind of in this, you know, emotional and spiritual rebuild kind of thing. And so, and then, you know, the Lord does this crazy thing where like four of the families that come onto this team, none of us knew each other. Four of them are our followers, you know, families are followers of Jesus, and one of the guys is a worship leader at a church not too far away and had just moved here within six months, and so now he and I become friends. So it's really cool how just being able to be just being able to live day-to-day life with intentionality outside of the vocational ministries like box has opened up a lot of opportunities. And I really wish I'd had more of it's not that I didn't have this experience before, but I wish I had had more of this when I was in vocational ministry leading, because it probably would have changed how I encouraged people to live out their faith day in and day out. Um, I think when you're in church ministry, you really want people's life to center around the church. Again, in a good way. Like, hey, yeah, we want you there on Sunday, we want you in a small group, we want you serving, and all of those are good things. But I've found uniquely in the last couple of years that having been given the freedom apart from those things, there's been these really unique ministry opportunities that I would have completely missed had I been focused on, well, we gotta go, we got a small group on this night, and we got this. Again, not you know, we do have a small group on Wednesday nights and stuff, but there was something about the change in how my time was being led or how I was leading my time that actually opened up some really cool doors. Um, so from that side of it, it's been really, really healthy and um it's been really fruitful. Like I've seen God do really cool things just in everyday normal experiences that I probably would have missed out on because I would have been, well, I gotta I gotta be there for that event, and you know, hey, I gotta lead this thing. And you know, we have an event that you know, it's it's just that churches tend to build programs as the primary tool to connect people, and then someone has to lead those programs, and then leadership tends to lead those programs, and then you end up leading ministry versus being in ministry in a weird way, and so that's been an interesting thing to learn. And I haven't really talked about this on any interviews yet, so this is a great question to dive into, but it has been really, really cool to see that happen from the identity standpoint. It has been a challenge to sort through all that. And it actually led to I just started working on my second book, um, and it was born out of kind of that wrestling of going, you know, because if you've been in ministry, you hear this a lot, and I used to say this all the time that if I have a main struggle, it's finding my sense of worth and value in ministry. My identity, you know, I get my identity gets caught up in ministry, and it's there's a truth to that, but one of the things the Lord kind of taught me about a month ago, maybe two months ago, was it isn't so much that my identity gets wrapped up in ministry as much as my identity is gets caught up in significance. Ministry was just a vehicle towards significance. Sure. And when I define significance, I'm not saying like the I the desire to be popular or or like have a platform, it's more so about that desire to make a difference. Um, that that I truly have been wired by God to want to make an impact in the lives and hearts of people. That could be one person, it could be a hundred people, it could be a thousand people, but I want to make a difference. And um so that that seed of significance is really, really good. But when I start to find my sense of worth in whether or not I'm making a difference, it's gone off the rails. And so it's been this really interesting journey of, again, like you talked about, like, you know, the the wilderness was this journey of the last two years, and now I'm kind of moving into this new season where God's peeling back new layers and going, okay, like, yes, we've walked through the darkness and you've learned that this life is always gonna be a mix of brokenness and beauty, and that you don't get to have this kind of transactional thing with me where if you're good, you get the good, but you're gonna always just be trusting and following me. And now there's this kind of next layer of like, and what is it truly that's driving you? And and and again, also a mix of good and bad. That desire to have make a difference is a good thing until it becomes an ultimate thing. Yeah, and as soon as it becomes ultimate, it goes sideways. So, all of that has been a really cool and challenging journey, but really healthy in many ways, um, for me to take some steps and to continue to kind of explore these things in my own heart and then hopefully turn them around and share them with people just about what I'm learning, kind of in the similar way that I did with the first book.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I wasn't expecting to uh learn something new so quick from what you were sharing. Um but as you were talking about. Welcome to the club. I know, right? Yeah. Um thank you for sharing all of that. Um gosh. Um I can relate to you a lot, being me still being in this season of helping lead the church that I'm a part of, and the expectations that you now are, for lack of better term, we'll say you are free from, um, of kind of having the church be the central focus of your Christian walk. Everything you do needs to be the people to bring you to our community, our life, like like the specific church that you're a part of. Um you have put into words, both in what you just said and in your book, the very thing that I am struggling to process. Because I have been raised in the same, and I was raised and I'm still in the same movement that I've been in my whole life. I love them to death. But I'm noticing that it feels almost stale, like having my kind of soul uh uh uh evangelistic purpose. My my my whole purpose in Matthew 28, verses 18 through 20 is to bring people to my church and is to yes, is to share the gospel, study the Bible with them, like walk with them through finding a relationship with God, letting them make their own decisions on if they want to you know follow or not, build build our community. None of those are bad things, as you've said. But the living life with one another, the going out and you know, meeting your community, meeting your neighborhood, like in and bringing them into your journey and being that or being them and bringing them into your life, being that kind of person who lives that way can get robbed from the responsibilities of vocational ministry. And I don't think it's a it's not a causation thing, but it's definitely a Correlation because more of your time is spent with minutia. So I'm not blaming a church for like, oh my life is not a good thing. No, no, no. Is that right? Yeah. But it's the um it's it's where the time is being invested, it's it's a math thing. Like if time is being spent here, it's much harder to find more time to spend somewhere else. And I that that hit me pretty deep because the kind of life I want to live involves the other side of that. And so in kind of walking through this wilderness that you describe is figuring all that out. Like, how did Jesus build his church? And at this like build his church, meaning bringing people into his life, building his community, and bringing people in, but at the same time living the other side of it as well that we're describing, of being giving, being sacrificial, and and kind of doing the things that is harder to do when you are in this full-time ministry uh uh uh uh lifestyle. Um that's a great thing to talk about, but yeah, that's that's kind of what's going through my mind because that's something I'm still active navigating.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

And I mean, yeah, I I I and I'm still, I mean, it's it's interesting because I am exploring, you know, the potential of going back on a leadership team at some point. I'm not closed off to it. I've you know I've kind of had my hands open with that stuff, but it is really interesting. Um I I don't think it's an either or. I think it's that's the hard part is you can't be you can't be overly binary about it and be like it's either ministry or life, or life or ministry, right? So there is something, but I think one of the things you said that I think is really important is um the church is to is supposed to be there to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. Um like that's the intent of it, right? So the church is a people, not a place, the ecclesia, it's the gathered people. And um, and so if if equipping the people to go and be is the primary like goal, yes, leaders are gonna make a sacrifice. So if you're in a leadership position where your job is to equip others to go and be, then not only are you equipping them to go and be, but then you gotta go be too. Like, so you there is this added leadership responsibility there. Um, I think one of the problems or one of the challenges, I don't want to say problems, is that what we've done is rather than focusing the attention of the church on go and be, we focus the attention of the church on come and see. And again, it shouldn't be either or, it's both and. Um, and I think that because of just the Western church culture and Western culture in general is a consumer culture, so we're gonna consume before we um before we we take ownership of something, right? That's just the way we're wired. So I don't think you can throw out the baby with the bath water and be like, we're not gonna do church the way it's done. Like that, like there needs to be a an invitational observational element, and that can be Sunday mornings, that can be, hey, come to this event we do or come serve with us. Like those are opportunities for people to observe and engage without taking any kind of ownership or or like communal responsibility. Um, but I do think we need to think more in terms of how do we help people go and be. So when Jesus sent out the disciples by twos, he told them go into these communities and look for a person of peace, right? Look for someone who will invite you in, and then if they invite you in, there's your sign to share the good news with them. Here's what's really interesting about that. Those people were the disciples were going into other people's environment, their safe place, their comfort zone. When we invite people into our environments, we're inviting them into our comfort zone.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Whether that's your living room or your church or whatever, there's something about going into other people's spaces or neutral spaces that opens up the potential for opportunities. Like the volleyball thing was it was it was a neutral space. It was a volleyball thing. So our our like our focus was on these girls learning how to play volleyball, and in that you have this camaraderie that develops with the girls, and then the parents start to get to know one another, and then you just start to pick up clues, like, oh, I think that guy follows Jesus. Like, you know, you just start to kind of it's almost like fight club. It's like you kind of know someone's in ministry, but no one talks about ministry. So there's a little bit of that going on, but then in that, like in that same volleyball group. So that guy who's a worship pastor, he and his wife became friends with another couple that were in that their daughter was playing in that volleyball team, rough around the edges, like um you know, children at a wedlock, not married, just started loving on them, encouraging them. Um, they started going to the church he leads worship at after about two years of just investment, hanging out with them, going down to dinner after volleyball games, that kind of stuff. And they she started the wife started plugging into a woman's Bible study, started learning. Um, and the daughter who had been on the volleyball team just got baptized at Easter. Um, but it's a long game, right? Like it wasn't, it's not like, hey, come to a thing, and then it was no, we're just gonna live life. We see them twice a week at volleyball. We got Tuesday practices and Sunday or Saturday games or whatever. And and I remember him telling me about a year and a half ago, like, hey, we my wife and I feel like we're supposed to kind of lean in with them. I'm like, awesome. And they just kept leaning in and kept leaning in and kind of got the push off a little bit, and then got the hey, like, so what is the church thing you're a part of? And so I it it's it's a lot less um linear than I think the church designs it it wants it to be. Like we want it to be really linear, and so it's like, okay, I invite my friend to Sunday, my pastor preaches a great message, my friend comes to Jesus, bada boom, bada bing, then I walk with my friend, and that's great because I have Bible studies to plug them into and a small group to get them into, and you know what I mean. We'd like to think it's that linear, and maybe for some it is, but I think for most people in today's culture, they have to find a way to belong before they're gonna start thinking about believing. Right. And for many, many years the church has been oriented around belief before belonging. Yeah, um, and I think we just have to think, it's just gonna force us to start thinking differently, and that's kind of what I've been learning in all of this is that oh, like, yes, I have to protect doctrine, and yes, I have to be wise about you know, we need to be wise about how we protect the church's um purity in a sense, but at the same time, Jesus was hanging out with hookers and tax collectors, and to the point where the Pharisees were going, dude, is are you a tax collector or hooker? Like, what's your deal? And that didn't seem to bug him. And so the church may need a similar thought process of like what does it look to create spaces where the hooker feels okay coming on Sunday morning, not because we're trying to play to her and like you know, like say, hey, it's cool what you're doing and stuff, but in the sense of like they're not gonna feel out of like they're not gonna feel instantly judged, they're not gonna feel completely outside of like you know, it's not all insider language where they're like, I don't understand like that joke or that word, you know. So there's bridge building things that I think that can helpful, and that's just what I learned in this season of being able to just be in these neutral spaces. Um, because churches really aren't neutral anymore. I think you know, a hundred years ago the church was in any town was the schoolhouse and it was the church building, and it was where they did city council meetings, you know, and they did potlucks, so it was neutral, it wasn't bad or good. Now church buildings are consider are at best neutral and often have a negative connotation for many people, yeah. So it's just gonna force us to think differently about how we live out the gospel in ministry with people, and then you're right, you add the complexity of like, okay, now I have a vocational side of this, and I can easily the gravitational pull is towards just being around nothing but Christians, um, and in essence spiritually entertaining them. And I don't want that to be the core of my existence. I want to have more than that.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

What's the likelihood that you think we will see that kind of change um even in the next few decades? And I ask that because there's there's quite a handful of uh things that even our church still does because it's worked in the past, because it's worked before. And it was a it was it's one of those things where uh it's a it's an old old solution for an old problem. And since at least in my generation, since now we have uh evolved, we have new problems, we have new strengths, and those solutions that we still use don't quite fit anymore. And my circle of people see that and we kind of are like okay, yeah, we're noticing this, but our leadership doesn't. Or they do see it and they're like, Well, that's that's not we we can't change because of that. We have to kind of we have to stick to how we are used to doing things. That is something that is quite common from what I've noticed, and I'm sure you've noticed it as well. And where my fear wants to kick in is oh, we will never see that change, or we will see it once everybody's got new leaders. It's like it's like it's like it's it's like there's so there's so much uh uh rigidness, I don't want to say stubbornness, but rigidness of uh like we need to keep doing the same things and do it for as long as we can and change when it's an emergency kind of thing. Um do you see a world where that doesn't have to happen and we can shift and we can change? Uh uh uh not we're and um hear me when I say we're not we're not shifting doctrine, we're not shifting you know how we do things, which and which it's it's how we respond to people's states of being. It's it's reaching out to them, going into their territory because we've been so uh uh in love and and and just desiring the comfort and safety of a church building in that community, which is not a bad thing, but it can it's now felt foreign, as you said. So you see some sort of reality.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah, and I think and I do think that like so our world needs all kinds of churches. So we do need churches that like we need an Anglican church, we need a little bit of high church, right? Like we need some liturgy and some tradition and some homilies, like like there is a a portion of our world of people that that's where their spiritual resonance is gonna come from. So we need that church. So it like there isn't a one size fits all. We need churches that are more um I don't know what else to say, conservative in terms of their, they're more, they're more like, hey, that we believe the church is about the community and we're gonna protect that, which means by by nature they're not gonna be as good at outreach. Like they're just not.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

But but for the spiritual health and growth of the people that will get into that community, God's gonna use that, the spirit's gonna use that in their hearts and lives. And we need churches that are thinking more forward-facing and more outward. So I do think we need all of them. I do think that you're right that um churches that maybe have gotten comfortable and protective probably need to be challenged to think differently. Um, and one of the things, like, because you said, like, hey, we're not trying to change doctrine, and I think uh Chandler, Matt Chandler wrote a book a while back, and I don't remember a lot about the book, but I do remember a framework that he used that was really, really helpful, and it was kind of like a the idea of a house. And he said, like, okay, so if the theology is the foundation of the house, um that's like rock solid, that ain't going anywhere, right? So your theology is your theology. Um now, granted, we all have different ways of interpreting our theology, but generally speaking, whatever the theology or core doctrines are, your core doctrines. Then he talks about philosophy, and so your philosophy of ministry would be like the framing of your house. And it's pretty solid too. Now you can move a wall if you have to. So you can go from complementarian to egalitarian as an example, right? But you're gonna that's a pretty big wall to knock down and move around, and there's gonna be a lot of dust and dirt. There's some infrastructure change requirements for that. 100%. It's gonna fundamentally change how that the philosophy of that church. It it's still built on a biblical foundation, right? But it's it, there's some pretty big things. And then he talks about practice, and he said, practice is like the furniture in your house. You can move furniture on all you want. Um, and and at some point, like for each church, they they have to start thinking, okay, are we talking theological? Are we talking philosophical, or are we talking practice in how we do what we do? And and and and that helps you kind of frame out where you're at and what you can or can't take steps in. Most churches would loosely align theologically. I mean, you know, you could, for the most part, right? You're gonna get some cursory issues where you're gonna have like debate over things like end times, complimentary and egalitarian, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

But in terms of core, like what are the core creedal aspects of the faith, everyone's gonna kind up kind of line up in around the same ballpark. Philosophy is gonna be very different. Um, that's where you really start to see things shift because how the church is supposed to operate and how followers of Jesus are supposed to live out their faith is gonna look very different depending on the community you're in, the church community you're in. And then practice will flow out of philosophy, right? So as a side, I will say, like, I think that that's a core part of the conversation is what is how does theology, philosophy, and practice kind of all play itself out? To answer your question, though, yes, I do see it. And I um, you know, every every good thing has a dark side, every dark thing has a good side, right? So churches that are more focused in word, and they're probably going to be more about Bible study and helping people get into the text and really know the word, really, really good things. Their tendency is to become a little bit detached from the marginalized, broken, like the person that isn't there, or or isn't like, I don't, I'm not ready to go read Leviticus. Like, I don't, I don't know what that's gonna do. There can be a premium put on understanding intellectually and a deficit in integration of how people live their lives out, right? So those are the those are the the pitfalls of that type of a church. On the other side of the coin, when you have a church that is more um more outward focused, or the you know, the the term used to be seeker sensitive, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

They can be really good at building bridges into the community, but they can struggle with depth of spiritual development with people, right? And it's really funny to see how there tends to be this pendulum back and forth between the two. Yeah. Um, the church that we're a part of is working really hard. They would fall more on the spiritual, I mean, more on the um seeker-sensitive side of the spectrum, if you want to call it that. Um, and they have struggled with how do we help do spiritual formation well, because we're trying to meet people where they are, not at an ideal. And so if you have someone who's a single mom who's just coming back to church after 30 years, um, you know, she got married young and made some mistakes, and now she's wants her kids to have a faith journey, but she doesn't even know what that looks like for her.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Like, you can't throw her in an inductive Bible study. Like, that's not gonna necessarily like you gotta meet her where she's at and help her take steps towards growth and health. So I think that there are churches that are trying to figure that out. The thing I'm seeing that's actually really encouraging, though, is churches like the one we're a part of, where, for example, they two years ago, at the kind of the leadership team wrestling through and praying through what does this look like? How do we become a church that's really all about our community? And they started this thing called Reimagined, which was like a capital campaign and kind of a reenvisioning. And what that's led to is completely repurposing church buildings. So, like the main campus is a main building, there's a church building there, but then they took another part of their campus and converted it into a coffee shop that's open seven days a week. And it's it's not called the church's coffee shop, it's got its own name and its own brand, and it's it's built as part of a nonprofit for the whole community. And so the proceeds that come into that coffee shop help fund um ESL classes and a resale store and um other uh medical needs in the community and other kind of benevolence projects that the church is a part of, but they're doing it apart. They they built uh an outdoor playground and a pickleball, pickleball courts, right? That are just like a community park setup. And they're they're far enough away from the church building. It's all one piece of land, but they're far enough away from the church building where it doesn't feel like it's the church's thing, it just feels like a thing. So it's creating that kind of neutral environment.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Um, more and more churches are thinking this way in terms of rather than building a traditional build uh traditional church building, build a theater. Um, our church is partnering with uh a city east of us. Um and basically the city was like, we're we want to take this really cool piece of land we have and build a community center on it. And our church was like, we really want to build a community center and partner with the city. They came together, the city donated the land, the church is building the building, it's gonna be like uh like park and greenways and an amphitheater, indoor amphitheater that the church will use, and then room for retail restaurants and stuff that that the that others are gonna facilitate. The church isn't gonna facilitate that, but it's a shared use model, and it's like more so like hey, we're gonna we're gonna invest in our community and the church is gonna meet there instead of we're building a church that we want the the community to come be a part of. Um, and so there are organizations that are doing that. Then I mean our church is part of a network called the Irresistible Church Network, um, which is a a movement of churches that are trying to think differently these ways. They're trying to think how do we create how do we leverage the space that we have for the sake of doing good in our community? And how do we leverage that to create spaces where people can see the church in a new light than maybe what they've seen, which is a building that's empty six days a week, and then there's cars in the parking lot on Sunday, kind of thing. So, so I am really hopeful that there are churches that are modeling this, and because it's because God's opening doors and we're seeing God do cool things in it, other churches are taking notice and going, wait a minute, maybe there's a different way to do this that's that can be more effective. I have a friend that I coach, um, I'm a he's a pastor in Oregon, and they took over, um, they have a lease agreement with this what it's a historic Methodist church building, you know, a sanctuary, a fellowship hall, and then like a little rectory apartment. And like they're using the sanctuary primarily. I mean, they're a church plant, they're only 40 people. Um, they're using the the main sanctuary primarily to do like they're letting theater groups use it and they're doing concerts there. And you know, it's kind of like let's make this a cool space. So they've revitalized it and they want it to be used by the community, and then there they service it, like, hey, we'll take care of it for you and make it, and you can use it, and it helps offset a little bit of their budget. Then so it's like there are churches that are thinking this way, and it's been really cool to see this begin to bubble up more and more.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

That's awesome. Like, it's that literally that what you just described is a dream that I've had. Like, it's on my vision board of owning a building for the community to use, being the church, being uh uh other other groups, Christian artists, like people who like want to go and perform and who want to do like worship nights or stuff like that, like bringing an area that brings people together and using it as a vehicle for that. That is so against the grain and so amazing uh of of how to do ministry, of of creating the neutral space rather than holding on to such a sacred space. And what I find I'm just I'm just not thinking of this, but like kind of how we're treating uh or how Western culture has treated the uh uh uh outreach to like bring uh bring people into our sacred space, which is good is good intentioned, it's good in heart, because like, oh, we have an amazing thing and we want you to experience it. It's a great thing. I kind of think of it as bringing in like somebody from Egypt into or somebody from India into the tabernacle. Back in the days of the Israelites, where it's like, okay, this is cool. I can kind of see what you do, but I have no I can't go in this room. There's pretty stuff in there. Why can't I go in it? Like, like what's like what is the high priest supposed to do? Why, why do I have to bring uh a lamb under three years old and have it be have no blemishes? Like why? What what what is this? Like everything is foreign. It's like I see the people and I see the good intention, but what's the it's a bad example because Old Testament versus New Testament, anyways. Um, you get the point.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

No, but I get what you're saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

But that's what I'm saying. Yeah, and I mean Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Uh like I saw a friend once, we brought a friend to church, and you know, like, hey, come to my church, and they're sitting there, and you know, worship happens, and his friend leans over in between, like it's probably announcements or something, and leans over and goes, Man, I like the Christian karaoke thing you guys do. And I'm like, that's what it is. It totally makes sense. If you're not a Christian, what is it's it's lyrics on the screen?

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Especially if we're using Christian karaoke.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

You're you and I kind of cracked up because are you saying you need to release my music now so it's not Christian karaoke? No, so he wasn't saying it would like the guy wasn't describing it disparagingly, it was just that was the closest, like that's what he needed to grab to go, oh, if I went and saying, you know, journeys don't stop believing in a karaoke bar, this is kind of like that. And again, like we've grown up in in a Western Christian culture, we're just getting into the first few generations that have are growing up with very little to no church framework. And so it is, and again, I uh please hear me. I'm actually a fan of high church. I would make a really good Catholic if I agreed with their theology. I'm melancholy enough, like I dig it. Like I there's a the candle thing, I have a candle lit on my desk right now. Um, I I like the sensoriness of it. So there's parts of like so I probably would be better off being Anglican, but anyways, um I actually do appreciate high church, and I think that there it needs to be part of the ecosystem, but I also think there's a space for what we're talking about, and and I think it's it's a bummer to me that the two sides, rather than seeing the value in one another, they it's the oh well, look at how touch you are, oh oh look how soft you are and how soft your theology is, or and it's like, man, like Jesus, Jesus wants to reach all people. Paul said he became all things to all people so that he might reach some. To the Jews, he became a Jew, to the Gentiles, he became like a Gentile. Like Homeboy had Titus circumcised, like, or no, yeah, Timothy circumcised, and then Titus didn't have to. Yeah. Like that's like think about you and I going, like, in order for me to reach this people group, I gotta go get mutilated. Like, that's that's pretty gnarly. Right? And so, but we don't, but that we're we're so convinced that our way is the right way, versus going, wait a minute, there's a beautiful, there's a beauty and diversity in the body of Christ. And I want more Anglican churches. Frankly, I want more gospel-centered Catholic churches um that are teaching, like, I mean, yeah, we can disagree about Mary, whatever, like, but if if you're preaching Christ and Him crucified, we're at least on the same team. Um, I think you're working harder than you need to to get there. Um, right? But I but like I think that there's I think that's like for me, the core one of the core things is man, how do we begin to unify around the beauty of the different things? Because it's gonna take all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. Um and and I and I think that there's there's so much beauty in that, you know, it's it it we need all of it, and and I and then that's where um I get excited. And again, I used to be that binary guy. I thought my church knew how to do it better than everyone else's church, right? And and I've been in that, you know, and I look back now, I'm like, oh, that was stupid. And and I've been the guy going, everyone, in order to grow in Jesus, they need to send their center their life around my church. And and why aren't they there on Sunday? They're only coming once a month. What's wrong with them? Like, all of those things as a leader in the church, I've done that stuff, I've been that guy. And part of what God's had me on this journey of is going, hey man, like you ain't as cool as you think you are. Um, and and I'm doing the work everywhere. Again, this doesn't mean we shouldn't be gathered as the church community. It doesn't mean we don't encourage people to develop real spiritual disciplines and real rhythms of spirituality, but to compel people to want to do that apart from a heart that desires it is not fruitful. It's wood, hay, and stubble, right? It's gonna burn up. And so, starting with that, how do you help people live from a hunger and a desire for Jesus rather than for his affection? You know, I want people living from an affection for Jesus, not for an affection for Jesus. Um, and I think that that's just a slower play than we would like to think.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Man. This is not the direction I thought this conversation was going to be. Neither was I. I'm looking at my notes and I'm like, I don't know if I want to go to another question. Oh my goodness. Um I don't know how we met at the time that we met. Because I I have to pay you for coaching at this point because you are you are speaking directly in this exact stage of life that I'm in right now, of trying to navigate and unlearn so much so many unhealthy things that I've now realized have not been serving me. Um my my parents are now have now just kind of learning this the hard way too. Of um I mean, I'll make a long story short, but my home church that grew up and just dissolved a few good two years ago. There was a leadership disagreement and we had gone through a few different ministries from burnout and um and then there was kind of a big kind of kerfuffle that happened, and my dad ended up leaving being one of the core leaders and my mom soon with him, and um, and then now soon the rest of the the churches now no longer meeting. Um outside of kind of the grief that I experienced of like, oh my gosh, that was my that was that was my home family, and now they're not they're not there anymore. Like that's that that has its own thing. But watching my parents, specifically my dad, um my mom for different reasons, but we'll stick with my dad for this example, being somebody who had spent 35 years of his life leading in this specific church family, and then watching it crumble as a son who probably at an unhealthy level looks up to his dad, watching that happen, having the belief of our church does it right, everybody else does it wrong, or they're slightly off. If you're gonna be a Christian with us, you have to be only with us, kind of thing. And um and so it turned into, well, my dad is still faithful, he has never he has not abandoned his relationship with God, he has not abandoned a relationship with my mother, they are working very well together and trying to process this and figure it out. Yet I have these concepts and belief systems that are clashing to what's actually happening. And man, that's stung. Like just trying to figure all of that out. I had people coming up to me in my own church saying, like, are your parents okay? Like, are they are they still like are they still love God? Like they immediately went to the assumptions that we all go to of like, well, they're not going to a church we're connected to anymore, so are they even still Christian kind of thing? Yeah, I was so disrupted by that, and I didn't know how to respond. I was like, I can't answer you right now. One, because I'm angry, and second of all, I thought the same exact way, like when it first happened, and I'm like, oh my gosh, okay. I am in this belief system that I'm now noticing flaws in because I've spent so many years of my walk with God, even before then as well, of whatever the church says is law. And I'm not talking Bible, I'm talking the person up front, and I have now mixed the two, and then trying to separate those again and saying, okay, God's saying one thing, and then we flawed humans can say another thing. That's very possible, and that happens all the time. Um one of those things of what God says to do and what we choose not to do oftentimes is uh something you talk about in your book, and it's the concept of lamenting, the concept of expressing uh expressing emotions in the moment of what's happening and and and giving that to God. And you talk about how um in essence we don't do that enough. Um and you mention it in chapter nine, you frame lamenting as faith's most faithful expression. Yes. We technically don't have a word, I think, in the English language that describes that very well. Um but in your observation when we worship, when we are with our church community that we love and we're worshiping together, we're learning about God together, what would a church that took lamenting seriously, meaning like our investing energy into learning and practicing it, uh, based on your learned definition of lamenting? What would what would a church look like on a Sunday morning from your perspective if that component of discipleship was taken effect?

SPEAKER_00 54:31

That's a great question. Um real quick, just like we just you know, and you shared your story a little bit with me when we were uh before when we talked last time, and um man, that's it is brutal to go through those kinds of things. And um you're you're going through what I would call a healthy deconstruction because you're you're you're not deconstructing Jesus as much as you're deconstructing um traditions, right? And again, some of those traditions are good, and some of them aren't, and like you said, they're flawed and they're human. Um, and so I think I think it's healthy for everyone, especially those who grew up in the faith, but I think everyone at every point has to wrestle with their, you know, their the values that God has put on their heart through the spirit in alignment with the values and traditions that they're in and under. Again, it's it's not questioning everything, but it's going like, okay, like, you know, I read the book of Acts and I see a church operating this way, and then I look at my own walk with Jesus, and I look at how my church lives that out, and I see some gaps. And I'm not gonna just oh well, you know, put my fingers in here and keep going. I'm gonna wrestle with that. Like, I think that's a wrestle, uh, there's a wrestling I think that's healthy, and you're doing that, and I want to commend you because that's actually really, really healthy and really, really important. I think that honors that. Um, and it isn't throwing out the baby with the bath water, right? It is there is a sense of like, I just need to start to peel back these layers, and Lord, I need your help to see underneath this stuff and wrestle through it. So, so just as an encouragement to you, like this isn't much of what I've done multiple times over the years, Chase. Like, I've done this at different levels in different layers at a theological level, like, oh, I grew up believing this, and believing it as if it was like this is for sure the right way to interpret this passage. And then, you know, you go to seminary and you get a few commentaries, and AI comes out, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, there's like seven arguments for this. And I don't know which, and they all seem pretty compelling, right? Like, so that kind of like like fundamentalism, the definition of fundamentalism is um is when you believe that your interpretation is the only interpretation. And and there's this sense of like fundamentalists, it isn't so much that they're more literalists or less literalist. You can you could be a fundamentalist in a very theologically light way. It's just the belief fundamentally that your way is the right way to view things. And again, the Bible was written uh for us, but not to us. And so it is a complicated collection of writings. It is a complicated library of writing that was written to first century Jews in and you know, in uh Semitic languages in a context that is nothing like ours. And we're trying to take and and extrapolate that and go, okay, how is that impacting and how am I living that out, right? And and then what is what is that, and then how is a spirit using that in my life, right? And then how is that shaping how I live and how I love and how I serve, and you know, which things are meant for all people for all times, and what things were Paul or whoever writing contextually to their local congregations, and you know, all of those things are going on simultaneously, right? So it is it is a complicated thing. We love simple and binary, that's as as humans and as Westerners, like we just want a simple right or wrong. I don't want to have to put much thought into it. Just tell me what's right, tell me what's wrong, let's move on. So, um, and I totally went off the trail rails of your original question to the point where I actually don't remember your original question now. But so tell me your question again because I do want to I do want to come back to that. Oh, lamenting. That's it. It's lamenting.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

I appreciate your words.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah, it's it's your your your response that was was very nice.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yeah, so I think with lament, um so when I write and talk about lament in the book, it really starts with personal lament and the idea of um being willing and able to say honestly where you are and what you feel, even if those feelings aren't right. Like there are times when I feel mad at God. Should I feel mad at God? Probably not. He's God, I'm not. That would make sense theologically, but it doesn't change the feeling. And I believe, and you see this all through the Psalms, you see this all through the prophets, you see this with Jesus. God wears big boy pants. Yeah, God wears big boy pants. He is not afraid of me coming to him and going, What the heck? Yeah, this is the book of Job, right? Like, what is going on? I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying this makes no sense to me. And there is an element of that that is a lament, it's it's a willingness to just to sit and go, this is not okay. I do not like this. This hurts. Um, and and the hard part as Christians is that if you've been around Christianity for any length of time, you know the you know that you know the the the end of the story. So you know, Romans, that God works all things for the good to those who are called according to the preservation, right? You know that he will wipe away every tear from every eye and there will be no more sorrow, no more pain. And there is a part of us that feels this compulsion to just jump to that, to avoid the discomfort of the moment. And there's a tension there because you can't just wallow, right? Because there is, we don't grieve like those who are not believers, right? We do have a living hope. And at the same time, and I think the best example is Jesus and Lazarus. So Jesus waits until Lazarus is dead. Like real dead, not just kind of dead, like real dead. And then he shows up. And Mary and Martha come, where were you? If you were here, my brother would be alive. And it says that Jesus got angry and he wept. Jesus knew what he was gonna do. He knows he's gonna raise Lazarus.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

He doesn't come in there and go, it's all good, guys. God works all things in the good, ha ha ha, and then I'm gonna raise Lazarus. He allowed himself to experience the full weight of death. He allowed himself to grieve the loss of his friend and grieve watching others lose their brother and their friend. He didn't shortcut the grieving process. Yeah, he could have. But he gave them hope. Like, from this, you're gonna see things I'm paraphrasing, right? But like from this, Martha, you're gonna see God's hand in ways you can't even imagine. Like, this is this is going to be for good. But then he lets them sit in it. And I think that that's and I don't know how this plays out in a Sunday gathering. I don't know if it should necessarily, but I think if you think in terms of the full philosophy of a church, um, we tend to be like Bob the Builder. Can we fix it? Yes, we can. Like we want to fix people's problems. All right. There you go. I got them, I got them stored away. Um, we we we are so uncomfortable with discomfort that everything in us wants to fix others and wants to avoid having to sit with my wife's counselor tells her all the time, you sometimes you just gotta sit with the cockroach because my wife hates cockroaches. And so the illustration she uses is hey, when you have when that anxious thing comes up inside of you, or that sense of shame comes up inside of you, the compulsionists go like oh, you know, like how do I get that back down and push it down? And what she tells my wife is no, no, like sometimes you just kind of have to sit with the cut with the cockroach, and you need to just go, hey buddy, yeah, this this is not good. I don't like this at all. Um, but that moment, in that moment, God is no less present, and I would say he's actually probably more present when we can lament, when we can say, God, I know you are good, and I know you work all things for the good, but I don't see it right now. And and I'm not even gonna say that, you know, once I get to the other side of this, it's all gonna like all I'm gonna do is just be here. Um, and I'm gonna ask you to meet me here in the valley of the shadow of death, and I'm gonna not fear, I'm gonna trust you, and I'm gonna take a step. And I think that what that's like at its root for me, lament is that ability, and again, like I grew up as someone, I'm not a highly emotional person. Like, you know, I had enough trauma in my childhood to learn how to not show emotion, and so this has been a journey of like me learning how to feel things and me learning how to just sit with people and not answer all the questions and solve all the problems, but just be like, Man, I'm so sorry. Yeah, I'm so I'm so sorry that you're in the middle of this. And I don't know why God's doing it. I wish I knew. I mean, I could give you 10 verses that fit on a coffee mug right now, but but I don't know that that's helpful. Um, and so Job's friends did really good until they started talking, right? Like they were doing awesome until they started going, wait a minute, why would this happen to you? You had to have done something wrong. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Proverbs 30 or Job 31, greatest comeback in history.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

Yes. Where were you when I created the foundation? You know what I mean? Like so I where were you? And then gird your loins, my friend. We're gonna have a conversation. And again, so there's room for God to come back at us with that, right? Because I get that. And he doesn't come at, like I think we hear that, like that Job 31, we hear that in our head, and it's like God going, Where were you? I don't think that's God's heart. I think God comes in with a tenderness and a whisper and go, Hey, where were you when I was creating? Oh, you like like it, it's a loving reminder, it's not a rebuke, it's not an angry rebuke. Um, you know, it's the same thing like in the garden, you know, he's Genesis 3, right? And you see God comes to them and what have you done? Um, you know, I think in my head I've always heard that as an angry, like, what have you done? And I don't think that's the father's voice. I think the father's voice is oh, what have you done? It's he's anytime you see God asking questions in scripture, this is actually a fascinating thing to do a deep dive in if you want to. Questions are always invitations when God asks them because you're not informing, he's not asking you a question because he doesn't know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

So when God asks questions, when he says, What have you done? It's an invitation to step into that moment and be honest. Yeah. We we ate of the fruit. Now, Adam and Eve, what do they do? Well, that woman you gave me, you know what I mean? Like it's immediately blame and shame and all those things. So I do think that like there's a there's the father has a tenderness about him in this where you know he makes room for us to throw our temper tantrums and kick and scream. And trust me, man, I've done a lot of these in the last three years. You know, it's the the core of the book is I did what you told me to, what the heck? Yep, right? That is if you want to summarize my journey in the book down to one sentence, it's that. And um, and in that, the Lord is like, yeah, and where were you when I created the foundations of the world? Like, I did not promise you. In fact, I promise you that in this world you will have trouble, but you can take heart because I've overcome the world. And I had had this quib pro quo that I didn't realize I had. That I had I had started to believe very subtly that somehow, if I did what God told me to, then in a way, at some point, it would land on its feet. That I'd stick the landing. It would be bumpy along the way and I'd have bumps and bruises, but we'd stick the landing. And when the landing wasn't stuck in my mind, in terms of me staying at that church and digging them out of that hole and being the triumphant like hero pastor, I collapsed. Everything about me collapsed. And and so this journey of God taking that and using that to peel back these layers and then teaching me to grieve it and to sit in it and go like, yeah, that like that what happened is really bad and it's really hard. That doesn't change who God is. And it was unfair. There's parts of it that are really unfair, and there is a way that other people's mess gets on me, and I have no control over that. Um, but my job is to be faithful, you know, and and my job is to trust the Lord, you know, Psalm 37, man, trust in the Lord and do good. Dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness, delight yourself in the Lord, and then he'll give you the desires of your heart. And so that like that mantra, Psalm 37, one, what was it two through four or whatever that is, um that's like to me, that is the Christian journey. Trust in the Lord, do good, dwell in the land, befriend faithfulness, delight yourself in the Lord, he will give you the desires of your heart. And and so I that's that really becomes even at its the core of lament, is that like dwell in the land. Where am I? I'm in a cruddy spot right now. Okay. God's not in a hurry, but you can be in a cruddy spot.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

Yeah, but it's the it's the transparency to God. It's the at least that's that's what it is for me. Like I can I can and often do just assume God knows what I need because He knows everything, which He does, but that's not That's not how a relationship works. And um I'm grateful I know that before I'm in a relationship. Um hopefully it'll give me an edge. But like I'll even think of it in we'll take a just take a marriage, for example. It's like maybe maybe a spouse number one can see that there's something going on. They don't know exactly what it is, they're not God, but they can see there's something off about the other person. And spouse two can tell that the person that spouse one knows something's going on, but nothing's been communicated. Even though the energy in the room is different. Uh nothing will get solved. And this can even be in a friendship too, but like nothing is nothing n nothing can get resolved because the the communication isn't there. And man, there have been days where I'll I'll pick up I'll pick up my my notes sitting here on my phone and I what feels like just spewing of everything that I've kept inside and retained and hid to myself and try to hide from God, which is a dumb thing to do because you can't hide anything from him, um hard you try. Man, I'm I'm similar to you. I'm I'm I will I am a very deep and emotional person, but I've learned to repress everything similar to you. And um man, it isn't until I let those floodgates go that the tears come, that the processing comes, that the um the sitting in it comes in. And I can't really it's hard to do that with somebody else. I have to be kind of in a room in the dark for that to happen still. I'm still working on that. But um even like mentally, I'm aware doing this helps. I feel I grow closer to God, I feel more connected to him, I trust him more. Like there's there's a lot of good things that I need as a Christian that comes out of it, but I'm still so resistant to do it. And I agree with your kind of amendment to my question of like you we don't really know how that could work within a church setting, but at least touching it and exposing to it, uh exposing uh a community to it, absolutely can be useful because with something I've noticed in my communities of churches, everybody's really receptive to a message. They come, they want to learn, they want to feel something new, they want to feel convicted for the week, um, whether if they're just going to be fed or if they're there to actually, you know, they're there to grow and want to help others grow. Um it's all it's all there. And when uh I was writing my uh actual series that the podcast is based on, I learned, okay, this is a very emotional topic. Like worship in general is a very emotional thing to do. It's connecting with God on an emotional level. What if we just taught that in the language that our community understands? And that's through lessons, that's through scripture, that's through some Greek root word that you'll learn something new in. Um I think I I agree with you that there is a there is a world that I see where the emotional attunement to God that David had is very possible, but it's just so uncomfortable and so foreign to our culture that I actually admire Eastern religions for having, because I'm kind of jealous of it. Like, that's all they have is just sitting in the moment and connecting. We don't do that. Like, I think there's a lesson to be learned just from how connection happens. Like, if I can learn how to connect with God like they connect with their gods, oh my goodness. I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Well, even a hundred percent. Even even think of the Eastern Orthodox Church, right? So the Eastern Orthodox sensory worship, the Catholic Church, they still have sensory practices. Those things are very helpful. And I will say, in a good way, guys like John Mark Comer, Dallas Willard before him, who Comer's building off of, um there are there is a new batch of leaders who are reintroducing our culture, uh church culture to these um spirit, deep, deeply held spiritual practices of of contemplation and um you know monasticisms and and sabbath rest, and like it is coming back. And so the like Enneagram 3 achiever church model is there, but there is an undercurrent going on of like, hey, what does it look like to slow down? What does it look like to be still? What does it look like you know, to memorize a verse and just sit in that verse, not to understand it, but to truly haga it, as the Hebrew would say, to chew on it, to process it, you know, like and that's what they were doing. They're taking these psalms and they're just yang yang yang, you know, they're just they're chewing on them. And and so there is more of that going on, and I do think that there's there's a resurgence of a resurgence of that in a really healthy way. And I think that you know, for everyone's different, right? Like, so for my wife, the way that she really senses God's delight and really connects with him is through nature. So for her, it's sitting in our backyard on her little bench or going out front and going for a walk or going to a park, or like that's where she's going to get a more tangible expression of her connection to God. For me, it's gonna be through worship primarily, or music, right? Like whether that's listening to music or playing a little bit of music or or something around that, there's gonna be an artistic endeavor that's gonna kind of stir those affections for me. And and for some people, it is the intellect, right? Like for C.S. Lewis, it was stories and intellectual, robust thought. Like that's what that's how God met him. That's how the spirit worked in him. And so part of it is figuring out like what's your affection language with the Lord, what's the way, you know, that that you and he connect in that, you're saying, in that relational way. Um, and and not that you not that you just do that, like go for a walk and don't read your Bible, but it's how how do those things integrate together, right? And I hate that we have to always throw in these caveats of like, I'm not saying don't read your Bible, but I'm saying like there is something there, and and I think that because we're so attuned to, well, that guy's super spiritual, and he reads six chapters a day and he's done a Bible in a year seven times, so I guess that's what it looks like to be spiritual. And I'm not convinced that's true. I you know, I don't I think it's it really is. I mean, the God is so gracious to meet us individually, he's knit us together in our mother's womb. We're fearfully and wonderfully made uniquely. Um, and he knows that full well. Like there isn't a hair on our head or or or anything about us that he doesn't know. And so anybody on that idea, Dustin.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:00

I think I think that's there's stubble.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

He's got stubble. There's stubble on his head. Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

Yeah, you gotta hear you. And so God meets us in those spaces, and and I think that the it's more so about us tuning our heart to him. You know, like you, you know, uh Eric Idol is his name, right? From Chariots of Fire, who is an Olympic runner, and there's a movie made about him, but uh but he said, you know, when I run, I feel his pleasure. So running was the way that that he sensed God, it's a gift that God had given him that very few people on the planet had. And like everyone used to make fun of him because when he ran, he would throw his head back and his mouth would be wide open, and it would be like he he didn't have a runner's gape, like he it looked ridiculous, yeah, but he was faster than anyone. And it was this sense of like he sensed God's pleasure in that journey. And and we all have those things that God that that somehow uniquely God can meet us in.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

Um, and it's it is slowing down long enough to go, okay, well, what does that look like for me, God? And and experimenting and not feeling like, oh, it didn't work because I prayed for 10 minutes and it didn't work. Well, okay, that didn't mean it didn't work, it just meant you were faithful, and so what does faithfulness tomorrow look like, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Yeah, I I've I've met uh quite a few people who connect with God in some very unique ways to the point where I'm kind of jealous. It's like, dang, like you can just sit, you can just sit in silence and feel the love that's described in the Bible, or at least a fraction of me. I'm like, I go stir crazy, like, oh my gosh, like I think about everything I gotta do on my day, my to-do list or behind me. I that's all I'm thinking about. But man, like you, um, and I think this is a blessing that has been given to I think two worship leaders, but when man, I could be uh I could be over here on the other side of my office and just playing my guitar just by myself, and it's like the world stopped, and it's just me and God, and that then I understand, oh, that's what you feel to some extent. Oh, okay, okay, gotcha. Okay, I could I could I could roll with that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:20

Uh and we can't equate a value to like that being less valuable than the guy that's doing an exegetical breakdown of Leviticus, right? Like, again, it's not that one's bad and one's good, they're both necessary.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:36

And and so it's it's it's some of it is that it's letting go of this like those expectations of ourselves that if I don't if I don't do my quiet times this way, then it wasn't a successful quiet time. Right. I mean, I'll be honest, man, there's times when I sit down to journal and read, and I read a verse and I journal one sentence and then I'm done. And it's like, and rather than going, oh, I failed, but going like God, I was faithful, and I wish I had more to say, and I wish you had more to say. I wish I could sit listen and listen better, but I got things I gotta go take care of, and you know that full well. So you know what I mean? Like just this normal thing, right? And again, like you said earlier, we do like relationships are a priority. Like my wife's in my marriage won't grow if we don't make time for one another. Right. So there is a discipline in all that, so it's not just being reactive in everything, but it's also making sure that you're disciplining yourself in the things that are gonna matter to the relationship, and not just disciplining yourself in things just because they're things that you're supposed to do because they're things, and even when you don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:43

It's like it's like it's like you value value you value the relationship more than how you feel in the moment, or at least that's the goal. Yep. Um, and so that's what that and that's what you work towards. Yep. Great stuff, man. I'm gonna I got I got I got two more for you. Um there's there's a lot of um we have a lot of both entrepreneurs and and specifically Christian entrepreneurs and and people who are trying to make decisions about their future, and um, and you've clearly you are you are a great example of taking a big risk from uh uh uh some semblance of security when it comes to a financial future with you know a stable stable career and and and you have you know consistency and whatnot, and there's a lot of people who watch who are considering leaving that for potentially something greater um for their for their life. And I would love to uh both I mean hear from you as a business owner, but also for for everybody else, for the Christians who are who have a big decision ahead of them, who feel like they are stuck in a in a in a densely tree populated forest of just can't see all you see is the next tree ahead of you. Um everything is unclear. Um they're in the wilderness and they're walking the path.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:07

What are three first steps you would tell this Christian on how to navigate this forest that they are in?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

It's a great, great question. Um I can tell you from my experience how it went with how it's gone with me. Um God has been graciously clear when he's needed to be over the years in specific pivotal moments, whether I was looking for him or not. So when I got to the end of myself and resigned from the leadership role at that church, um, and I thought, like, okay, now I'm gonna feel better and we'll figure it out. And instead, I spiraled into anxiety and depression and like really, really dark, um, which threw me off. And so uh the first thing I needed was like Elijah, I needed a timeout. I needed um, and and God was gracious to provide, but I needed a timeout. I needed to be off the hamster wheel, I needed time to heal, time to think, time to wrestle, all those things. Um, I needed to not have productivity be the placebo effect of success.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

Um, and now at the time I wouldn't have said that. I would have, you know. So within a month or so of me stepping down, um, and I'm doing all the like, you know, I you get your resume ready and you start looking for other opportunities, and I I would immediately jump right back into the next thing. Like it wasn't like cool, I'm just gonna sit here and trust the Lord. I immediately was like, okay, what's next? What's next? And in that God was as close to audible as he could have been, and he said, You serve and trust me to provide. And I said, That's a really stupid idea.

unknown 1:23:05

Literally.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:06

That was a funny part. That was a funny part of the book when I got to that. Is like, you know, it sounds weird out loud saying that God did a dumb thing, but I've definitely thought before that God did a dumb thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:16

100%. And I and I I said it. I said, that's a dumb idea. Um, but and then after that, he's pretty much he shut up. He's like, okay, cool. Like I he, and and not because I said it was a dumb idea, but he was like, you now know the disposition I want you to have. Um, and so then it was this thing, and and sure enough, it's like, okay, Gord, look, I'm gonna trust you. And God would just, hey, you know, my friend from a denomination calls, hey, there's this dying church, they need someone to preach on a Sunday. Would you have some time to do it? It's like 50 bucks. I'm like, okay, you know, way less than what I needed, but okay, this sounds like a serving and trusting moment, right? Hey, can you, you know, and so it's been this, so for me, my thing was step back, like take the time out. Elijah freaked out, went in the wilderness, and God was like, Okay, why don't you take a nap? And then I'm gonna give you some water and some bread, and you just need to sleep it off a little bit. Like you need to get off of your hamster wheel. Um, and then he went up on the mountain and the Lord spoke to him in a gentle whisper, right? So, but there was this, there was this detox in some ways. So I needed a detox. I'm not saying that's everybody, but I definitely needed a detox, whether that was you can call it a sabbatical. I did start working more deeply with my counselor at that time. I did kind of start mining into some of the childhood stuff that was there that had clearly surfaced in all of this, narratives that I had believed that I didn't realize were driving me. And so, so that was one thing. So that detox. Two, a sense of clarity from the Lord, not in terms of direction, but in terms of disposition. I don't think God is super um micro will focused. Do I go to this college or that college? Do I do this job or that job? Um I I maybe there's moments when that matters. I think by and large, he's like, go. If you delight in it, go. Honor me in how you do it, right? Take the job over there, take the job over there. Think about it in terms of the implications to family. Like, so for us, when I left that church, my wife was like, hey, we've moved enough. I really don't want to leave our house, I don't want to leave our community, I don't want our kids to be uprooted again. And I went, I agree. Which just immediately made a decision of if a church in Kentucky called me and said, We want you to be our pastor, I would say no. So it was like, so again, so you're you're using your own, like, okay, and so that so that's the other second thing, like clarity from the Lord. What do we value? What's most important? What am I willing to give my time and energy to? What am I willing to give my life to? What am I not willing to? Where do I need to have healthy boundaries? So I need a breather. The second thing is that like clarity from God and clarity of who I am and what I'm called to. And um, those would be like the first two anchor things. And then the third one I would say is you can't do it in isolation. Like, left to your own devices, you will make really dumb decisions. So it needs to be in a community. Could be like for me, obviously, my wife was a big part of that. Our kids are a big part of those conversations. I've got good friends that I reach out to and process with. Um, it could be your parents if if they're helping you in that journey. It could be your small group community, a close friend. But you can't you can't individually make big shifts in isolation. You need someone to bounce stuff off of, and you need to give them permission to say, hey, if I'm like you would tell me if I'm being an idiot, right? Like, like you would tell me if I'm off base. And you need those people, you need people who are gonna be like, man, that's a that's a bold idea. I love the idea of you stepping out on your own and starting your own thing. Like, have you thought of this? Or what does that look like? And here's the thing as the dreamer, you get really frustrated because you're like, stop bringing logic into this. Like, I'm trusting.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:19

I want to go do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:20

Yeah, yeah. So you have to wrestle through all that, but it's those are healthy things to do. So I would say, like, if if you're in the forest and you can find a space, it could just be a Saturday away, you know, get an Airbnb for a day and just go sit without a phone and any technology and a notepad and paper if that's what you need, and just say, okay, Lord, like I want to hear because I feel cluttered. And just give yourself time to chill. And then spend the time once you've kind of hit reset, processing and praying and thinking through. I need clarity from what God wants, and I need clarity about what do I really want? What am I really chasing here? And then third, bring others in on that journey. So those are the three things that I would say would be most valuable. That again, I didn't do that intentionally, but that's what Lord the Lord did in the midst of it because I'm not smart enough to be that intentional.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:15

Yeah. Step one, sit down, shut up, take a break, pause. Step two, listen. For the love of God, listen. Number three, don't do it alone. Bring people in. Three amazing ways to uh even just deepen your relationship with God in the moment of heated of heated life and just a lot of a lot of uh uh trials coming through. Thank you for sharing that with me and with us. Um finally, Dustin, tell me this in five words. What makes you smile?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:52

Hanging out with my family.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:55

Hang it. Beautiful, most beautiful answer we've gotten so far. Dustin, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, everybody, if you want to work with Dustin directly, you can find him at www.dustincleinschmidt.com. Uh uh links will be in the description below. I do not expect you to know how to spell that off the cuff. Um, you can also find his book, The Wilderness Way, on Amazon and in the description below. You can also stream Dustin's new album in Wild Days on Spotify and Apple Music. Dustin, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:29

Chase, thanks for having me. This was an absolute blast. I loved it. You're welcome. Awesome, man. We'll see you guys later.